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Title: Second Shetland Truck System Report
Author: William Guthrie
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Second Shetland Truck System Report
by William Guthrie
NOTES 1.
Truck - The payment of wages otherwise than in money, the
system or practice of such a payment. References/Edinburgh
enquiry/book/archives/size of original doc. OED.
The Truck Commission Enquiry, 1872, is a major social history
source the Shetland Islands in the 19th century. It followed on
from an existing Truck Commission enquiry in 1871, after evidence
from Shetland was heard in Edinburgh. 45,125 questions covered
the rest of the country, 17,070 for Shetland. Despite this effort, little
effect immediately resulted in Shetland from legislation following
on the national enquiry.
References
George W. Hilton, The Truck System, including a History of the
British Truck Acts, 1465-1960,
W. Heffer and Sons, Ltd., Cambridge, 1960.
Hance D. Smith, Introduction (to facsimile reprint of the Report
of the Commissioners appointed to enquire into the Truck System
(Shetland), Sandwick, 1978.
Hance D. Smith, Shetland Life and Trade, 1550-1914, John Donald
Publishers Ltd., Edinburgh, 1984, ISBN 0859761037.
For further queries, contact Shetland.archives@sic.shetland.gov.uk.
NOTES 2.
The original documents come in a double column, small print format.
Since it isn't possible, or even desirable to reproduce that here, some
alterations have been made. Page numbers are indicated within square
brackets - [Page x]. Tables, which were in even smaller print, have
also been altered somewhat where necessary. In particular, Table I-IV
in the Report section have been split up for ease of use, and put after,
rather than in the middle of the section referring to them. The use of
italics has been indicated by means of the following <italics>.
The most obvious typographical errors have been removed, but otherwise
the text is untouched. However, the spelling of place names and personal
names has altered a bit over the years, and the items below cover most of
the obvious problems, as well as some misapprehensions and errors.
Blanch-
now Blance.
ca'in/caain whales-
alternative spellings of the same word - for Pilot Whale, usually.
Clunas-
now usually Cluness.
Colafirth-
now Collafirth.
Coningsburgh-
now Cunningsburgh.
Cumlywick-
now Cumlewick.
Cunningster-
now Cunnister.
Dalzell-
alternatively Dalziel, Dalyell, Deyell, and even Yell.
Dunrosness-
now Dunrossness.
Edmonston/Edmonstone-
now Edmondston.
Eskerness-
probably Eshaness.
Exter, Janet-
a misapprehension - actual name unknown but possibly
Janet Inkster.
Fetler-
now Fetlar.
Fiedeland-
now Fethaland.
Flaus/Flawes/Flaws-
alternative spellings of the same name now usually
Flaws.
Garrioch/Garriock/Garrick-
can be alternative spellings of the same name.
ghive/geo/gio-
gio - an inlet.
Goudie/Gaudie-
now Goudie.
Hancliffe-
probably Hangcliff.
Harra-
now Herra.
Hildesha-
now Hildasay, an island.
Hillyar/Hillyard-
probably Heylor.
Humphray/Humphrey/Umphray-
can be alternative spellings of the same name.
Jameson/Jamieson-
now usually Jamieson.
Lasetter-
now Lusetter.
Lebidden-
now Leabitten.
Leisk/Leask-
alternative spellings of the same name.
Lesslie/Leslie-
alternative spellings of the same name.
Lingord-
now Lingarth.
Luija-
probably Linga, an island.
Malcolmson/Malcomson-
now usually Malcolmson.
Manaster-
prob. Mangaster.
Mavisgrind-
now Mavis Grind.
Nicholson-
now usually Nicolson.
North Mavine/Northmaven-
now Northmavine.
Rennesta-
probably Ringasta.
Roenessvoe-
now Ronas Voe.
Satter-
now Setter.
scatthold/scattales/scattholes-
now scattald.
scaups/scaaps-
alternative spellings of the same word, a bed of
shellfish on the sea bottom.
Simbister-
now Symbister.
Stenness-
now Stennes.
Sullem/Sullam-
now Sullom.
Thomason/Thomson/Thompson-
alternative spellings of the same name.
Trosswick-
now Troswick.
Urrafirth-
now Urafirth.
Usiness-
prob. Ustaness.
Vinsgarth-
now Veensgarth.
Waterbru-
now Waterbrough.
West Sandwick-
now Westsandwick.
Angus Johnson, May, 2001.
[Page 1 rpt.]
REPORT.
_______
TO THE RIGHT HONOURABLE HENRY AUSTEN BRUCE, ONE OF HER
MAJESTY'S PRINCIPAL SECRETARIES OF STATE.
SIR,
THE Report on the Truck System, presented to Parliament in 1871,
stated that the Commissioners, Messrs. Bowen and Sellar, had
received information from four witnesses with regard to Shetland,
'tending to show that the existence of Truck in an oppressive form
is general in the staple trades of the islands'. The Commissioners
in their Report call attention to this evidence, and add: 'Time
would not allow of a local inquiry at Shetland, nor can an inquiry
be adequately conducted into the Truck which is alleged to prevail
there otherwise than upon the spot. No opinion accordingly is
offered either as to the extent of, or the remedy for, the alleged
evils; but the necessity of some investigation by Her Majesty's
Government into the condition of these islands seems made out.'
Having been appointed, by a warrant under your hand, dated Dec.
23, 1871, one of the Commissioners under the Truck Commission
Act, 1870, in room of Mr. Bowen, I was directed to proceed to
Shetland and institute an inquiry there under that Act. I inquired
respecting the matters embraced under the instructions of the Act,
and I have now to report as follows:-
I went to Shetland at the beginning of the year, a time when the
seafaring people of the country are generally at their homes, and
I at once began to take evidence with regard to the system of
barter or truck which prevails in various trades and industries in
these islands. Evidence was taken respecting the hosiery or
knitting trade, in which a very large proportion of the women of
the country are engaged. Evidence was also taken with regard to
the fishing trade, which in its different branches affords
employment for part of the year to the whole of the male
population, with few exceptions. With regard to the manner
in which sales of farm stock and produce are transacted, rents are
paid, and land is held in Shetland, information has also been
obtained, without which it appeared to be impossible to form a
correct idea of the condition of the people, and the way in which
barter or truck presents itself as an inseparable element of their
daily life and habits. A large amount of evidence was also pressed
upon me with regard to the engagement of seamen at Lerwick for
sealing and whaling voyages to Greenland and Davis Straits.
Sittings for the purpose of taking evidence were held at Lerwick,
Brae (Delting), Hillswick (Northmaven), Mid Yell, Balta Sound
(Unst), Boddam (Dunrossness), and Scalloway, in Shetland. I
visited Kirkwall, in Orkney, for the purpose of examining certain
witnesses now residing there with regard to the condition of Fair
Island, which was inaccessible at the time of my journey. Sittings
were also held in Edinburgh for the examination of a few
witnesses residing there.
Public notice by printed bills was given of all meetings, and
circulars were also sent to all clergymen, schoolmasters, and
landed proprietors, and to all persons in the fishcuring and hosiery
trades. Evidence was received from almost all who tendered it,
from a large number of persons suggested or put forward by
employers of labour and purchasers of hosiery goods and fish, and
from many witnesses who were selected and cited.
________________________
GENERAL DESCRIPTION OF SHETLAND.
The Shetland Islands are upwards of a hundred in number,
varying in size from the Mainland, which is about seventy miles in
length and thirty at its greatest breadth, to small rocks not even
affording pasturage to sheep. The outlines of all the islands, as
shown on the accompanying map are very irregular, long bays or
voes indenting them so deeply that no point is more than three
miles from the sea. The country is hilly, but none of the [Page 2
rpt.] hills are very lofty. Twenty-eight of the islands are inhabited;
some of the smaller islands containing only two, or in some cases
only one family. The population in 1861 was 31,670, viz. 18,617
females, and 13,053 males. The population in 1871 was 31,605,
viz. 18,525 females, and 13,080 males. The census is taken at a
time of the year when many men who are sailors in the merchant
service are absent from their homes, which they visit once a year
or oftener. At the last census there were 6,494 families, 5,740
inhabited houses, 220 vacant houses, and 10 houses building.
The Agricultural Returns for Great Britain for 1871 state the
number of occupiers of land in Shetland, from whom returns
have been obtained, at 3992, occupying on an average thirteen
acres each. The total acreage under all kinds of crops, bare,
fallow, and grass, is given as 50,454 acres in 1870, and 50,720 in
1871, of which, in the latter year, 11,626 acres were under corn
crops, 3,493 under green crops (2,909 being potatoes), 522 under
clover and grasses under rotation, and 33,227 permanent pasture,
meadow, or grass not broken up in rotation, exclusive of heath
or mountain land. The total number of horses returned to the
Statistical Department, as on 25th June 1871, was 5,354; of cattle
21,735; of sheep, 86,834; and of pigs, 5,251.
_________________
SOCIAL STATE.
The 'toons,' or townships, in which the peasantry of Shetland
live, are generally situated along the margins of the voes, or
far-stretching inland bays which intersect the country; and
although in some districts they extend into the valleys running into
the interior, they are almost always within a short distance from
the sea. It is natural, therefore, that the Shetlander should be a
fisherman or a sailor; and for two centuries it appears that he has
generally combined the occupations of farming and fishing. The
following description of the rural polity of Shetland, taken from
Dr. Arthur Edmonstone's View of the Ancient and Present State of
the Zetland Islands (2 vols. 8vo, Edin. 1809), is for the most part
applicable at the present day.
'The enclosed land in Zetland is divided into what are called
merks and ures. A merk, it is said, should contain 1600 square
fathoms, and an ure is the eighth part of a merk; but the merks are
everywhere of unequal dimensions, and scarcely two are of the
same size. The oldest rentals state the number of merks to be
about 13,500, and those of the present time make them no more.
A considerable portion, however, of common has been enclosed
and cultivated since the appearance of the first rentals, although
not included in them. When a part of the common is enclosed and
farmed, the enclosure is called an outset; but the outsets are never
included in the numeration of merks of rental land. From these
circumstances it is very difficult to ascertain the actual quantity of
cultivated ground in Zetland.
'The enclosures are made, generally, in the neighbourhood of
the sea, and contain from 4 to 70 merks, which are frequently the
property of different heritors, and are always subdivided among
several tenants. Such place is called a town or a room, and each
has a particular name.
'The uncultivated ground outside of the enclosure is called the
scatthold, and is used for general pasture, and to furnish turf for
firing. Every tenant may rear as many sheep, cattle, or horses, on
the general scatthold attached to the town in which his farm lies as
he can. There is no restriction on this head, whether he rent a
large or a small farm. If there be no moss in the scatthold
contiguous to his farm, the tenant must pay for the privilege to cut
peat in some other common, and this payment is called <hogalif.>
It seldom exceeds 3s. per annum.
'The kelp shores and the pasture islands are seldom or never
let to the tenant along with the land; these the landholder retains in
his own hands. In some parts of Zetland, particularly in the island
of Unst, the proprietor furnishes the tenant, gratis, with a house,
barn, and stable, which he also keeps in a state of repair. In other
parts of the country this expense is divided between them, but the
chief proportion of it always falls on the landholder.
'The quantity of land farmed by a tenant varies from 3 to 12
merks, and sometimes more; but the average number to each
may be taken at 5. In a few instances regular leases are granted,
and some of them for a great number of years; but these are
comparatively rare. In the great majority of cases, nothing more
takes place than a verbal agreement on the part of the tenant to
occupy a farm under certain conditions, for one year only, at the
expiration of which both he and the landholder consider
themselves at perfect liberty to enter on a new engagement ....
'The rents are paid in cash and various articles of country produce,
such as fish, butter, oil, etc.; and the amount of the rent varies,
according as the tenant has the exclusive disposal of his labour or
agrees to fish to his landholder. In the former case, the probable
profits on the sale of fish and the other articles of produce are
estimated, and the lands are let at their full value. In the latter
case, or where the tenant fishes to the landholder, he comes under
an agreement to deliver to him his fish, butter,* and oil, at a
certain price, and then the lands are let at a considerably reduced
rate. This system, where there is a reciprocity of profit between
the landholder and the tenant, is by far the most general, and the
practice is immemorial in Zetland.
'The merks are divided into different classes, such as
<six-penny, nine-penny>, and <twelve-penny> merks. These are
arbitrary numbers, employed to designate certain differences in
the rents of the merks, according to their size and produce. Thus
nine-penny merks should be more valuable than six-penny merks,
and twelve-penny more so than nine-penny. But these distinctions,
although rounded, no doubt, originally on real differences, are at
present very inaccurate measures of the relative value of the
different classes of merks; for sometimes happens that a six-penny
merk is as large and productive as a twelve-penny one. . .
'The lands in the different towns generally lie, <pro indiviso>,
intimately mingled together, which not only [Page 3 rpt.] creates
frequent disputes, but prevents the more industrious tenants from
making smaller enclosures...
'The ground is divided into what is called <outfield> and
<infield>. The outfield is the land which has been last brought
into a state of cultivation, and in most parts the soil is mossy. It is
sown generally with oats. The infield, on the contrary, has been
long in a state of culture, and it produces barley, called in Zetland
bear, and potatoes. The outfield is seldom well drained, although
it might be easily done without any additional trouble or expense.
Thus, when cutting peat for fuel, which is often done within the
dyke, instead of doing this in parallel lines, leaving a considerable
space between them to become a future corn-field, the people cut
in every direction, disfigure the ground, and very often form
reservoirs for water to accumulate in. The outfield is allowed to
remain fallow for one, and sometimes two years in succession, but
the infield is generally turned over every year.'** [Vol. i p. 147
sqq.]
* This does not accurately describe the present mode of paying
rents. The rent is always nominally a money rent, although it may
be paid in account, as will afterwards be shown
** It would be out of place to make extensive quotations from this
valuable work. But I refer to it as containing discussions the social
state of Shetland, showing that many of the questions involved in
the present inquiry required an answer seventy years ago. See also
Hibbert's <Description of the Shetland Islands> (Edin. 1822)
The enclosed lands were formerly runrig, <i.e.> held by the
inhabitants of the township in scattered allotments, at different
places within the dyke or enclosing wall,-the allotments
being made, apparently, in such a manner as to give the tenants
equal shares of the different qualities of land. In late years,
however, much progress is said to have been made in dividing the
farms and throwing the ground of each tenant into one lot. [J.S.
Houston, 9654; W. Stewart, 8992; A. Sandison, 9993.]
DWELLINGS.
The following description of the Shetland hut or cottage is
written by Dr. Arthur Mitchell, now one of the Commissioners of
Lunacy for Scotland, a very accurate and careful observer
(Appendix to the Second Report of the General Board of
Commissioners in Lunacy for Scotland, 1860):-
'The Shetland cottage or hut is of the rudest description. It is
usually built of undressed stone, with a cement of clay or turf.
Over the rafters is laid a covering of pones, divots, or flaas,* and
above this again a thatch of straw, bound down with ropes of
heather, weighted at the ends with stones, as a protection against
the high winds which are so prevalent. Chimneys and windows
are rarely to be seen. One or more holes in the roof permit the
escape of the smoke, and at the same time admit light. Open
doors, the thatched roof, and loose joinings everywhere, insure a
certain ventilation, without which the dwellings would often be
more unhealthy than many in the lanes of our large cities. To this,
there is no doubt, we must attribute the comparative absence of
fever, the occasional presence of which, I think, is greatly due to
that violation of the plainest law of nature, the box-bed. This evil
is often intensified in Shetland by having the beds arranged in tiers
one above the other, in ship fashion, with the apertures of access
reduced to the smallest possible size.
'Drainage is wholly unattended to, and the dunghill is invariably
found at the very door. As the house is entered, the visitor first
comes upon that part allotted to the cattle, which in summer are
out night and day, but in winter are chiefly within doors. Their
dung is frequently allowed to accumulate about them; and I was
told that this part of the house is sometimes used by the family in
winter as a privy. Passing through the byre, the human habitation
is reached. The separation between it and the part for the cattle is
ingeniously effected by an arrangement of the furniture, the bed
chiefly serving for this purpose. The floor is of clay, and the fire is
nearly always in the middle of it ....
'In some respects, however, the Zetland dwellings stand a
favourable comparison with those of the Western Islands.
There is a bareness and desolation about the misery of a Harris
house that is tenfold more depressing. It is a poor house and an
empty one - a decaying, mouldy shell, without the pretence of a
kernel. Whereas in Zetland there is usually a certain fulness.
There are bulky sea-chests, with smaller ones on the top of them;
chairs, with generally an effort at an easy one; a wooden bench, a
table, beds, spades, fishing-rods, baskets, and a score of other little
things, which help, after all, to make it a domus. The very teapot,
in Zetland always to be found at the fireside, speaks of home and
woman, and reminds one of the sobriety of the people - that very
important difference between them and the inhabitants of the
Hebridean islands. I think the Zetlanders, too, are more
intelligent, and more inclined to be industrious, and give greater
evidence of the tendency to accumulate or provide.
'Instead of describing the house occupied by each patient, I
have given this general account of the average Zetland dwelling,
and then, in my individual reports, I have spoken of the special
houses as of, above, or below the average.'
*Different terms signifying varieties of sod.
Since 1860, the dwellings of the people have undergone
considerable improvement, especially in the more advanced
districts, such as Unst; but the description given of them by Dr.
Cowie,* the latest writer on Shetland and himself a Shetlander,
and my own observation so far as it went, enables me to state
that Dr. Mitchell's description of the average cottage of the
fisherman-farmer is still substantially correct. Cottages to which
the description exactly applies may be found within a mile of
Lerwick. In Lerwick, the capital, the poorer dwellings are, to say
the least, not better than those of the same class in other towns of
its size. [D. Edmonstone, 10,683; Rev. W. Smith, 10,718; Dr.
Cowie, 14,745.]
*<Shetland: Descriptive and Historica>l. By Robert Cowie,
M.A., M.D., Aberdeen. 1871. See p. 91. Edmonstone's <View of
the Zetland Islands>, vol. ii., p. 48. <New Statistical Account of
the Shetland Islands>, p. 138.
______________________________
THE LING FISHERY.
DIFFERENT KINDS OF FISHING.
It is necessary to distinguish the terms which are somewhat
loosely used in speaking of the different kinds of fishing carried on
in Shetland. The home or summer fishing, when that term is used
in its widest sense, includes all the fishing for ling, cod, tusk,
[Page 4 rpt.] and seath prosecuted in open boats, whether of six
oars, or of a smaller size such as are still used for the seath fishery
at Sumburgh. The 'haaf fishery' is, in the greater part of Shetland,
synonymous with the home or summer fishery, being distinguished
from it only where, as at Sumburgh, seath fishing is prosecuted in
summer in the smaller open boats. 'Haaf' is 'the deep sea - the
fishing of cod, ling, and tusk.'* This fishery is also generically
known as the ling fishing, because, though, considerable quantities
of tusk and cod are also caught at the haaf, ling is by far the most
important part of its produce. The term 'cod fishing' is sometimes
applied to what is usually called the 'Faroe fishing', which is
prosecuted in large smacks in the vicinity of the Faroe Islands, and
in autumn as far north as Iceland. On the west coast of the
mainland, the 'cod fishing'- or 'home cod fishing' as it is called,
to distinguish it from the Faroe fishing - is carried on, though
now to a comparatively trifling extent, in smacks of a smaller size,
at banks to the south-west of Shetland. The 'winter fishing' is
prosecuted in small boats of four oars, which belong entirely to the
men engaged in it, the fish being generally cured by themselves, or
sold to any merchant they please for a price fixed and paid in
money or goods at the time.
* Edmonstone's <Etymological Glossary of Orkney and Shetland
Dialect> (Edin. 1866.)
FISHING TENURE FORMERLY EXISTING.
The ling and tusk fishery is the oldest of the existing fishing
industries of Shetland. It appears in the seventeenth century to
have been in the hands of Dutch merchants and shipowners, who
supplied the natives with the means of fishing; cured, or at least
dried, the fish on the beaches; and carried it to Holland. It is said
that the proprietors of Shetland were first induced about the
beginning of the eighteenth century to take the ling fishing into
their own hands, supplying their tenants with materials, and
receiving the fish at a stipulated rate.* The system which grew up
after this change is referred to by Dr. Adam Smith,** and appears
to have been in full vigour in at least one part of Shetland but a
few years ago. It is thus described by a witness, William Stewart,
as it existed till 1862 in Whalsay, where he was a tenant of the late
Mr. Bruce of Simbister:-
'8978. What rent did you pay there?-The rent I always paid for
my ground was 26s.'
'8979. Did you fish for Mr. Bruce at that time?-Yes, for the late
Mr. William Bruce.'
'8980. And you had an account with him at the shop in
Whalsay?-Yes.'
'8981. How did you pay your rent?-Generally by fishing.'
'8982. Was it put into your account?-Yes. The thing was carried
on on a very strange system. Our land was put in to us at a low
rent, and our fish were taken from us at as low a value. The prices
for the fish never varied, either for the spring or summer.'
'8983. Do you mean that they were the same every year?-They
were. Whatever they might be in the markets, they were all the
same to us.'
'8984. Had you never the benefit of a rise in the market at all?-
Never.'
'8985. Did you not object to that?-We had just to content
ourselves with it, or leave the place.'
'8986. It was part of your bargain for your land, that you were to
give your fish at a certain rate?-Yes; there were so much of the
fish taken off for the land. That was the first of the fishing. We
got 3s. 4d. a cwt. for ling, 2s. 6d. for tusk, and 20d. for cod, and so
much of each kind of fish was taken off until the land was paid
for; and then the prices were raised to 4s, I think, for ling, 3s. 2d.
for tusk, and 2s. 6d. for cod, for all the rest of the summer fishing.'
'8987. Did you get these prices for a number of years?-I think for
the thirteen years that I was on the station they never varied one
halfpenny for the summer fishing. The prices for the winter
fishing varied a little. Sometimes we would sell the small cod as
low as 2s. 6d, and at other times at 3s.'
'8988. Did you sell the winter fishing for payment at the time, or
did it go into the account too?-It was never put into the account
at all; we just got what we required for it. It was ready payment;
but it was very rarely that we got money for the winter fishing.'
'8989. Did you know at the time that the prices you were paid at
the latter part of the season were lower than the market price of
the fish?-We knew that; but it was just the bargain.'
'8990. Was that the system with all the tenants in Whalsay at that
time?-With every one.'
'8991. When did that system cease?-I think it ceased about a year
after I came here-about 1863.'
[W. Stewart, 8978; See J.S. Houston, 9727.]
* Edmonstone's <View of the Zetland Islands>, vol. ii., p. 232.,
Brand's <Brief Description of Orkney, Zetland>, etc., pp. 73, 89,
128, 136, etc. (Edin. 1701).
** <Wealth of Nations>, b.i.c. xi.
LAND QUESTION CONNECTED WITH TRUCK QUESTION.
It is impossible to separate the question of Truck in Shetland
from the land question - (1.) Because Truck, in the form in
which it chiefly exists, has arisen out of these old relations
between landlords and tenants in the times when the landlords
were the principal or the only purchasers and curers of fish; and
(2.) because, to a very material extent, the relations between the
fish-curer and the fishermen are still subservient and ancillary
to the landlord's security for his rent.* That this is so will appear
from a description of the ling fishery as it now exists.
*<See> General Observations on Shetland, by Lawrence
Edmonstone
M.D., in <New Statistical Account>, p. 160 (Edin. 1841)
TACKSMEN AND MERCHANTS.
Although the proprietors may originally have had some concern
with all the fishing of the year, it is in the ling fishery that they till
lately occupied, and in some instances still occupy, the position of
the old Dutch traders. In this position they have now, for the most
part, been succeeded by merchants, who in some instances are
tacksmen (or [Page 5 rpt.] 'tacksmasters,'-<Anglicé>, principal
lessees or middle-men, having sub-tenants), and in others are
merely lessees of a fishing station, with its invariable appendage,
a retail shop or store for goods of every kind. There is a regular
season for the haaf fishing, lasting from about the 20th of May till
the 12th of August. It is carried on chiefly from stations as near as
possible to the haaf, where lodges or huts are erected for each
boat's crew. The men return to their homes at the end of each
week. At each station where the fish are landed, whether that
is a temporary station,-such as Feideland, Whalsay Skerries,
Stenness, Papa Stour, Spiggie, or Gloup,-or a permanent curing
establishment and shop, such as Reawick, Uyea Sound, Quendale,
or Hillswick,-factors are employed by the merchants to receive
and weigh the fish, and enter the weight in a fish-book. These
factors at the temporary stations are entrusted with a small supply
of meal, lines, hooks, and other articles likely to be wanted by the
fishermen, which they sell to them in the same way as the
merchants themselves or their servants do at the permanent shops.
[W. Irvine, p. 85.]
MODE OF FISHING.
The mode of fishing is similar to the long-line fishing in
the North Sea, described in the Report of the Sea Fisheries
Commission, 1866, App. p. 6.
AGREEMENTS AND SETTLEMENTS.
A boat is usually divided into six shares, each of the crew
having one share; the proceeds of the fish, after deducting the
price or hire of the boat and other expenses incurred on account of
the crew, for which the crew is responsible as a company, being
also divided into six shares. In some rare cases the shares are
fewer, and one or two of the men are hired.
It is an invariable rule that a boat's crew delivers all its fish
taken during the summer to the same merchant. In a few cases this
arises, as it formerly did almost universally, simply from the fact
that the men are all tenants of a proprietor or middle-man, who
makes it a condition of their holding their crofts that they shall
fish for him. In others, it is the subject of an express or tacit
arrangement with a particular fish-curer.
When he delivers his fish, the fisherman does not receive
payment for it, nor does he know what price it will bring. The
arrangement or understanding is, that the price is to be at the
current rate at the end of the season. The season ends, so far as the
fishing is concerned, at or about August 12; but the sales are not
made until September and October, when the process of curing
is completed. The settlement of the price does not take place
till November, December, or January; and in the case of one
merchant, it appears to have been more than once delayed to a
considerably later period. When a number of crews deliver their
fish to the same merchant, especially if he has a number of stations
at different parts of the islands, his settlements are considerably
protracted. Each crew, as I have said, has got supplies at the
fishing station; it has also got fishing materials, and it may have to
pay the hire, or instalments of the price, of its boat. These are all
debited to the crew in a ledger account, kept in the name of the
skipper and crew, thus -'John Simpson & Co., Stenness.' The
sums due for these items being deducted from the total amount of
the boat's fishing, the balance is divided into shares, which are
carried to the private accounts of the several fishermen; for in
almost every case the fisherman and his family obtain, during the
year, 'supplies' of goods from the shop of the fish-curer. In the
great majority of cases there are no passbooks for such accounts.
The private account is read over to the fisherman by the fishcurer,
or by his shopkeeper, where he does not personally manage that
department of his business; and the fisherman being satisfied as to
its correctness, or, as it often happens, trusting to the honesty of
the merchant, it is settled, any balance due to the fisherman being
paid in cash, any balance against him being carried to his debit in a
new account. [See below - SETTLEMENTS AND PASS-BOOKS] THE
debit against the fisherman consists-(1.) Of any balance against
him in the account of the previous year; (2.) Of goods of various
kinds supplied from the store; (3.) Of cash advanced in the course
of the year, either to himself personally, or for rent, taxes, or other
payments made on his account. It may possibly occur in a bad
season, that his share of a balance against the crew with which he
has been fishing may increase his indebtedness; but no case of this
kind has been brought under my notice. On the other hand, he is
credited with the price of his fish at the current rate, and with the
price of any cattle or ponies sold by him to the merchant. The
smaller farm produce, such as butter and eggs, although very often
sold to the same merchant, does not enter the account, having been
paid in goods across the counter, rarely in cash, at the time of
delivery.
[See below, p. 24.]
[Page 6 rpt.]
TRUCK.
It thus appears to be quite possible that fishermen should receive
the whole of their earnings in shop goods, and I understand that
the truth of the allegation that most of the men actually are so
paid, and that they have no option but to take goods for their fish,
at prices fixed by the merchant, was intended to be the main
subject of this inquiry.
COMPLAINTS BY FISHERMEN.
Upon this subject the complaints of the men themselves were not
loud or frequent. The only cases in which fishermen came forward
voluntarily for the purpose of stating grievances, on hearing of the
Commission, were those in which they are bound by their tenure to
deliver their fish to the proprietor of the ground, or his tacksman.
As in all these cases they are also supplied with goods from the
landlord's or tacksman's shop, it was necessary to hear fully what
the men had to say, even although their complaints appeared to
involve a question as to the tenure of land, as well as the payment
of wages.
FISHING TENURES.
Complaints on this subject were made by tenants on the estates of
Sumburgh and Quendale, in the parish of Dunrossness, and on the
island of Burra. It also appeared in the evidence of persons cited,
that the obligation exists and is enforced on the estate of Lunna, in
the parish of Nesting and Lunnasting; on that of Ollaberry, in
Northmaven; on those of Mr. Henderson, Mrs. Budge, Messrs.
Pole & Hoseason, in Yell; in the island of Whalsay, held by
Messrs. Hay & Co. from Mr. Bruce of Simbister; on the
Gossaburgh estate, in Yell and Northmaven, held by them
from Mrs. Henderson Robertson; and in Skerries, of which Mr.
Adie has a tack from Mr. Bruce. On other estates the tenants are
nominally free, although it may sometimes be doubtful how far
they are able to exercise any choice.
SUMBURGH [Qu. 548 sqq.]
The first witness who came forward to speak of the obligation to
deliver the fish to the landlord was Laurence Mail, who was not
summoned, and his evidence shows how naturally this grievance is
connected with the system of Truck. He says:-
'559. What is the complaint you wish to make?-There is one
thing we complain of: that we are bound to deliver our fish, wet or
green, to the landlord.'
'560. That is, you have to deliver the fish as they are caught?-
Yes; of course we have to take out the bowels and cut off the
heads: it is the bodies of the fish we give. We think it would be
much better if we had liberty to dry the fish ourselves, as we used
to do formerly.'
'561. To whom are you bound to give your fish?-To Mr. Bruce,
our landlord.'
'562. Is he a fish-curer or fish-merchant?-Yes.'
'563. Is it Mr. Bruce or his son that you are speaking of?-It is
young Mr. Bruce. He is the landlord or tack-master. His father is
alive; but I think young Mr. Bruce has got power from his father to
engage the tenants according to his own pleasure.'
'564. Do you pay your rent to young Mr. Bruce?-Yes.'
'565. And does he give you a receipt for it in his own name?-We
settle once a year with him for our fishing, and for the store goods
we have got, and rent and everything together.'
'566. Do you get an account for the whole?-He generally gives us
a copy of our account. Sometimes, perhaps, he does not do so; but
he will give it if we ask for it ....'
'568. Is that all you have got to say on the subject of your
complaint?-No; I have something more. Of course, as we are
bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, a man, unless he has money of his
own, is shut up to deal at Mr. Bruce's shop. His credit is gone at
every other place, and that binds us to take our goods from his
store; and generally the goods there are sold at the highest value.'
In the case of the Sumburgh tenants, who are above two
hundred in number, there was a period of freedom, following a
general increase of rent; but about 1862 the son of the landlord
began business as a fish-merchant, and as a preparation for that
obtained a lease of the southern portion of his father's estate.
Intimation of the trick was made to the tenants; and it appears to
have been intimated at the same time that the tenants must deliver
their fish to young Mr. Bruce, the tacksman. Some of the tenants
were required to sign an obligation so to deliver their fish. The
merchants who had previously had stores on Mr, Bruce's property
were removed.
[L. Mail, 625; G. Williamson, 4961; H. Gilbertson, 4575; J.
Harper, 4507; G. Leslie, 4612; R. Halcrow, 4646, 4656; L. Smith
4720; A. Tulloch, 468; T. Aitken, 4803-4835; L. Mail, 639]
QUENDALE.
On the neighbouring estate of Quendale, where about fifty
fishermen are employed, a similar statement was made to the
tenants when the present proprietor became a fish-merchant. A
change upon the previous system is said to have been then made;
but one witness, who has lived on the property for at least fifty
years, says that during all that period he never had freedom. The
proprietor says that his tenants have sat upon the ground subject to
that condition for three generations, <i.e.> since it was purchased
by his family in 1765. James Flawes, the first witness examined as
to this place, says:-
[Page 7 rpt.]
'4913. Is your obligation a written one, or is it part of a verbal
lease of your land?-When young Mr. Grierson got the fishing, he
read out a statement to his tenantry at large, in the schoolroom at
Quendale.'
'4914. How long ago was that?-Twelve years ago. That
statement which he read gave the tenantry to understand that he
was to become their fish-merchant, or the man they were to deliver
their fish to; and that they were all bound to give him every tail of
their fish from end to end of the season, as long as they held their
land under him. If they did not do that, they knew the
consequences: they would be turned out.'
'4915. Was that all stated to you in the schoolroom on that
occasion?-Yes; it was all read off by Mr. Grierson himself.'
'4916. Were you present?-Yes.'
'4917. Did he state that you would be paid for your fish according
to the current price at the time of settlement?-Yes; that was
stated also at that time.'
[James Flawes, 4911; G. Goudie, 5034; C. Eunson, 5056; L.
Leslie, 5077; J. Burgess, 5099; H. Leslie, 5131; cf. C. Eunson,
5060, L. Leslie, 5087.]
LUNNA.
On Lunna estate, about the same time, Mr. Bell, then
sheriff-substitute of the county, handed over the estate and
fishing to Mr. John Robertson, sen., a merchant in Lerwick,
as tacksman, the tenants being told, at a meeting at Lunna
House, that they must in future fish for Mr. Robertson if they
went to fish at Skerries, the principal fishing station in that
part of the country.
[James Hay, 5425, L. Simpson, 13,833; John Robertson, sen.,
14,075; John Johnston, 9224; L. Robertson, 13,934; Robert
Simpson, 13,983; A. Anderson; 9277; J. Henderson, 5512.]
WHALSAY.
The men in Whalsay are not under Messrs. Hay & Co. as
tacksmen, but they are bound to deliver their fish to them.
Particulars were given by Mr. Irvine,. who is a partner of Hay &
Co., and factor for the proprietor. No complaints came from this
island. It may be remarked that the farms in it are more productive
than in some other parts of Shetland, and that it is but lately that
the people were emancipated from a very primitive kind of tenure,
already described.
[W. Irvine, 3623, and see above, W. Stewart, 8978. See above,
Page 4, rpt.]
BURRA ISLANDS.
As soon as I arrived at Lerwick, a complaint was laid before
me in writing by the inhabitants of the Burra Islands, part of the
trust-estate of the family of Scott of Scalloway. These islands are
leased to Messrs. Hay & Co. for a tack duty nearly equal to the
gross rental paid to them by the sub-tenants. The tack duty is
paid by Messrs. Hay & Co. half-yearly, while they receive their
sub-rents at the annual settlement. The chief inducement to
Messrs. Hay to hold the lease of the island is that they may obtain
the fish of the inhabitants, who are bold and successful fishermen,
and are more favourably situated for the haaf fishing than any
other people in Shetland.
[W. Irvine, 3623.]
The complaint made by the men of Burra was simply that they
were not at liberty to cure their own fish and sell them in the
highest market. Fourteen years ago the late Mr. William Hay told
them that they must sell to him, and eight years ago a similar
intimation was made on the part of the present firm, who wished
the men to sign an obligation to deliver all their fish to them. The
following is the statement of Walter Williamson, who was the
chief spokesman of the Burra men who came to Lerwick:-
'790. Why do you not do it (<i.e.> cure and sell your own fish)?-
Because we would be ejected from the place if we were not to
deliver our fish to them.'
'791. What is your reason for supposing that?-Because we have
been told so.'
'792. Was it on the occasion you have mentioned, eight years ago,
that you were told so?-It was.'
'793. Have you been told since that you would be ejected if you
did not deliver your fish to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I have never
since asked anything about it, so that I had no reason to be told
so.'
'794. Has any person been ejected for selling fish to other
merchants than Hay & Co., or for curing his own fish?-I think
there have been such cases in Burra. I believe John Leask was
ejected for not serving as a fisherman to Messrs. Hay & Co.'
'795. How long ago was that?-I think it would be about thirteen
years since, or close thereby.'
[W. Williamson, 764, 776; P. Smith, 980; T. Christie, 1064; C.
Sinclair, 1109; G. Goodlad, 1208.]
Liberty money was exacted by Messrs. Hay from some of the
Burra men some years ago, <i.e.> a payment of 20s., in respect of
a tenant or his sons having failed to deliver fish to the lessee.
[Peter Smith, 1012.] But in some cases, at least, it appears that
this money was repaid. Messrs. Hay & Co. explain that-
'Some years ago, after a time of bad crops and bad fishings,
when we had to give them large quantities of meal for their
support, and many of them were unable to pay rents, the islands
were indebted the best part of £1000. We made an attempt at that
time to get the young men to fish to us and assist their parents, and
I think in two cases we imposed fines of 20s.; but it had a contrary
effect to what we intended, and, so far as I remember, the money
was given back.'
And Mr. Irvine says in his examination, 'The object of the fine
was to compel the sons to assist the fathers.' The written
obligation itself has not been recovered, and neither Mr. Irvine,
of Hay & Co., nor other witnesses, have a very clear recollection of
its contents. I am inclined to believe, however, although Mr.
Irvine appears to have a different impression, that the obligation
it sought to impose was wide enough in its terms to include
the Faroe fishing, in which Messrs. Hay & Co. are engaged
very extensively. There is some evidence that constraint or
compulsion, or rather influence, such as a landlord can exercise
over his tenants, has been used in Burra and elsewhere, in order to
get [Page 8 rpt.] Faroe fishing-smacks well manned. But so far as
Burra is concerned, that influence seems not to have been applied
in late years, and it is not general elsewhere.
[W. Irvine, 3623, 3754 sqq.; Peter Smith, 1041; C. Sinclair, 1135,
1143; W. Irvine, 3920, W. Williamson, 923; Peter Smith, 1012,
1057; C. Sinclair, 1118; J.L. Pole, 9370.]
GOSSABURGH.
The tenants on the estate of Gossaburgh, in South Yell and
Northmaven, about 120 in number, are also bound to deliver their
fish, both in summer and winter, to Messrs. Hay & Co., as
tacksmen of the property, if they engage in the ling fishing. In the
Northmaven portion of the estate (North Roe), thirty-three out of
fifty-six tenants actually fished for the tacksmen last year; three
fished by sufferance to other curers, two were at Faroe, and two or
three were sailing south; others were employed by the lessees as
curers and tradesmen, and probably a few were unfit for fishing.
The average rent paid by the tenants on this part of the estate is £3,
3s. It seems that the profit of Messrs. Hay & Co. on their tack
consists, as it does in the case of Burra, almost entirely in the
power it gives them over the fishermen tenants.
[J. Pottinger, 13,540; W. Robertson, 13, 628; W. Irvine, 3818; D.
Greig, 7116-7131; W. Irvine, 3623, 3624, 3811; Andrew Ratter,
7404 sqq.]
BURRAVOE.
The tenants on the estate of Burravoe, in the south of Yell,
belonging to Mr. Henderson, are bound to fish to their landlord.
Both Mr. Henderson and his son were unable to attend the sitting
at Mid Yell, in consequence of the state of their health; but I saw
Mr. George Henderson at his place of business, examined his
books, and obtained a full return from him. Mr. Henderson had
thirty men fishing for him last year, but these were not all tenants
of his own. On this estate, as on some others, it appears to be the
rule, subject perhaps to exceptions, that a tenant who cannot or
does not fish must quit his farm, or pay a higher rent.
[R. Smith, 9121, 9123 sqq.; D. More, 9639.]
SKERRIES
The tenants on the Out Skerries, north-east of Whalsay,
forming six boats' crews, are obliged to fish to Mr. Adie, who
holds a tack of the islands from Mr. Bruce of Simbister. Mr. Adie
says:-
'5767. Is the rent which you pay for Skerries calculated so as to
allow you a profit upon the rents of the sub-tenants?-No; I pay
£110 of tack duty, and the gross rental from the tenants is only
£68. I virtually pay the difference just for the station that is,
station rent for the store and premises which are put up there.'
'5768. Is it not also for the privilege of having these fishermen to
fish for you?-I believe I could make more of these lands if I had
them as grazing ground, without any fishermen there at all. There
is only one of the Skerries I hold now; one of them has been sold
to the Lighthouse Commissioners.'
'5769. If you could make more of the island as grazing ground,
why don't you turn it into that?-If I were to do so, what could I
make of the men? There are fourteen families, and if I turned
them adrift it would be a fearful thing.'
'5770. Is it difficult for men to get land in Shetland?-It is very
difficult now; there are so many requiring it, that almost every
place is taken up. I have boats that go from the mainland to fish at
the Skerries with the natives.'
'5771. Then it is useful as a station for them?-Yes.'
[T. Hutchison, 12,622; P. Henderson, 12,734; D. Anderson,
12,774; A. Humphray, 12,802.]
YELL, ETC.
The tenants on certain scattered properties in Yell. and the
Mainland belonging to Mr. Pole, held in tack by him, or for
which he is factor, are bound, if he requires them, to fish to
the firm of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.; and this obligation extends
to the Faroe fishing also.
[W. Pole, 5936; J.L. Pole, 9369.]
OLLABERRY.
The tenants on the Ollaberry property in Northmaven parish are
obliged to fish to a firm, of which the principal member is Mr.
John Anderson, Hillswick, brother of the proprietor and tacksman
of the estate. There are fifty or sixty tenants on this estate. There
is some evidence that in this place the bound men or tenants get a
lower price for their fish than those who are 'free.'
[John Anderson, 6592; W. Blance, 6014, 6026, 6048; A. Johnson,
14,890, 14,908, 14,947.]
CASE OF SEAFIELD TENANTS.
I have still to mention the latest case of this exercise of the
patrimonial right of disposing of a tenant's fish, which is an
instructive instance of the submissive way in which the right is
accepted are Shetland. The tenants on the small property of
Seafield, on Reafirth or Mid Yell Voe, twenty-one or twenty-two
in number, had been in use to sell their fish in summer to Laurence
Williamson, a fish-curer and merchant on the opposite side of the
voe. There was, however, a shop at Seafield, the tenant of which
had been carrying on business not very successfully. He had
resolved to leave the place, and the business premises were likely
to be shut up. In this state of matters, the law-agent for the
proprietor wrote the following letter to a leading man among the
tenants, William Stewart:-
'<Lerwick>, 22<d> Nov. 1870.
'WILLIAM,-I now write, as I promised, to explain what I expect
the Seafield tenants to do in regard to fishing, that you may
communicate the same to them. The business premises at
Seafield cannot be allowed to remain vacant, and consequently
unprofitable, while it is clear they must do so unless the tenants
fish to the tenant of these premises. The Seafield tenants,
therefore, must fish to Mr. Thomas Williamson upon fair and
reasonable terms, and I understand he is quite prepared to meet
them on such terms. I believe he will, in every respect, do you
justice; and so long as [Page 9 rpt.] he does so, you have no reason
to complain. But should it happen that he fails to treat you fairly
and honourably (of which I have no fear), you can let me know,
and matters will soon be put right. You and the tenants, however,
must not act towards Mr. Williamson in a selfish or hard way
either, for it is quite as possible for you to do so to him as it is for
him to do so to you. Both he and you all must work together
heartily and agreeably; and if you do so, I have no fear, humanly
speaking, that the result will be success to both.- I am, yours
faithfully,
W. SIEVWRIGHT
'William Stewart, Kirkabister, Seafield, Mid Yell.'
[W. Stewart, 8917]
Mr. Sievwright made a statement with regard to this letter,
which adds nothing to what appears in it, except the fact that most
of the tenants were in arrear for rent. It is stated also by Thomas
Williamson (who was put into business apparently by Mr. Leask, a
very extensive merchant in Lerwick), that he did not 'want any of
the men to fish for him;' that 'scarcely any man could keep the
premises there and carry on business in them without the privilege
of having the men to fish for him.' Twelve men of the Seafield
tenants, forming two boats' crews, had entered into a written
agreement to fish to Laurence Williamson in 1871; but they were
obliged to leave him and he says 'I slightly objected to it but of
course I could not help it .... Of they had to leave me because they
knew, or at least they believed, they would be differently dealt
with if they did not leave.'
[W. Sievwright, 15,118; T. Williamson, 9493; W. Robertson,
13,660; L. Williamson, 9003, 9005.]
In short, it has been so much a habit of the Shetlander's life to
fish for his landlord, that he is only now discovering that there is
anything strange or anomalous in it. This man, William Stewart,
to whom Mr. Sievwright wrote, had lived in Whalsay, as I have
already shown, under what appears to have been a still more
disadvantageous and servile tenure. He is a fair specimen of the
average peasant of such a district as Yell. It is evident that men
who have been brought up in such habits, and with the tradition
among them of a still more subservient time in the past, are
prepared not only to submit to extreme oppression on the part of
their proprietors, or those to whom their proprietors hand them
over, but also to become easily subjected to the influence of
merchants who possess no avowed control over them.
CASE OF ROBERT MOUAT AT MOUL
An instance of the abuse to which the system is liable in the
hands of an unscrupulous tacksman, is afforded by the case of
Robert Mouat, who held, until two years ago, a tack of the estate
of Mr. Bruce of Simbister, in Sandwick parish. A number of
witnesses came forward to testify to the thraldom of the tenantry,
and the injustice which they had suffered under his rule. The
evidence against Mouat was certainly given with such freedom, I
might say with such an earnestness of hatred, as was not displayed
towards any merchant or tacksman who is still in the country.
After making allowance for exaggeration, it is certain that the state
of Coningsburgh during the seventeen years of his rule must have
been very distressing. Every tenant on the ground was bound to
sell to him not only his fish, but all the saleable produce of his
farm. Money could not be got from him, according to one witness,
either at settlement or during the season. The witness John
Halcrow, who is much less vehement in his language than some
others, says:
'13,089. Were they bound to deal with him for shop goods?-The
fishermen were. They were required to go to him with all their
produce, meal, ponies, and eggs, as well as with their fish.'
'13,090. But they were not bound to buy their goods from him?-
No; but they had to do so, because he received all their produce,
and they could not go anywhere else. They had no money.'
'13,091. Would he not give them money for their produce?-Yes,
for such as cattle he would. But it was very few of them who had
any money to get from him.'
'13,092. Why?-Because they were bound to fish for him, and he
received all their fish.'
'13,093. But if he received all their fish he would have to pay them
money for them?-It was very hard to get it from him.'
'13,094. Did he prefer to give them the price in goods?-Yes, if
they would take it.'
'13,095. And did they take it in goods?-Not very much.'
'13,096. Why?-Because they were not very good.'
'13,097. Then they would have money to get at the end of the year
if they did not take very much in goods?-Yes.'
'13,098. Did they get the money at the end of the year?-No. He
said he did not have it to give them.'
'13,099. Then they did not get their money at all?-In some cases
they got it.'
'13,100. But some of them did not get it?-Yes.'
'13,101. And some of them did not get goods either?-Yes; they
would not take his goods.'
'13,102· Then did they go without either money or goods?-Yes.'
'13,103. Was that often?-I have had to do it myself.'
'13,104. When was that?-In 1870. He said he had no money to
give me.'
'13,105. Was that at settlement?-Yes. He had the tack for two
years more at that time, and he gave me a receipt for the rent of
1871. Then he failed; and I had to pay my rent for 1871 over again
to Mr. William Irvine.'
And the witness produced documents to show that he had
actually paid rent in advance to Mouat in June 1871, which,
according to the law of Scotland, does not discharge the tenant;
and that he had afterwards paid it to Mr. Irvine, as factor for Mr.
Bruce. While it may be taken for granted that the condition of
tenants under Mr. Mouat was at no time enviable, some of the
statements about his conduct ought probably to be accepted as
literally true only with regard to the period of struggling
circumstances immediately preceding his bankruptcy.
[John Leask, 1284; Gavin Colvin, 1382; M. Malcolmson, 2978; W.
Manson, 3018; H. Sinclair, 5312; W. Irvine, 3948.]
[Page 10 rpt.]
EVICTION AND LIBERTY MONEY.
In all the cases where tenants are bound to fish for the landlord,
there is a firm conviction that the penalty of disobedience is
eviction, or payment of 'liberty money.' 'We knew quite well,'
said James Flawes (4964), a tenant on Quendale, 'from the
statement which was made to us before, that, if any one
transgressed the rule, the penalty would just be our forty days'
warning.' And cases of threatened removal for this cause, and
payment of liberty money or fines, though not common, have yet
been sufficiently numerous to keep alive a wholesome
apprehension, and prevent widespread disobedience. Eviction to a
Shetlander is a serious matter, especially when it is for such a
cause as this. A new farm is always difficult to get. 'In the south,'
says one witness, 'a man can shift from town to town and get
employment; but here, if he leaves his house and farm, he has no
place to go to except Lerwick, and there is no room to be got there,
either for love or money.'
[W. Irvine, 3625, 3755; L. Smith, 4486; J. Flawes, 4956; C.
Eunson, 5069; J. Johnston, 9238; J. Hutchison, 12,693; Peter
Smith, 1012; M. Malcolmson, 2994; W. Manson, 3025; W.
Goudie, 4274, 4385, etc.; H. Sinclair, 5320; John Johnston, 9423;
T.M. Adie, 5770.]
There is an impression, not perhaps always correct in a region
where the excessive subdivision of land is ascribed to the desire of
landlords to increase the number of their fishing tenants, that a
man who is independent enough to differ from his landlord with
regard to the terms of his lease is not likely to find favour in the
eyes of other proprietors. A witness, speaking of another condition
of his holding, says:-
'801. Are you not at liberty to make your own bargain about the
land, the same as any other tenant in Scotland is?-I am not aware
of that.'
'802. Suppose you were to object to make such a bargain, could
you not leave the land and get a holding elsewhere?-It is not
likely we would get a holding elsewhere.'
'803. Why?-We would very likely be deprecated as not being
legal subjects, and the heritors would all know that we were not
convenient parties to give land to. That is one reason; and another
reason is, that places are sometimes not very easily got.'
'804. Do the same conditions exist on other properties in
Shetland?-So far as I know, they prevail all over the country, or
nearly so.'
805. You think that, if you were trying to move, you would not get
free of a condition of that sort?-We might get free of it for a
time, but by next year the parties to whose ground we had removed
might bind us down to the same thing.'
806. But supposing all the men were united in refusing to agree to
such conditions, there could be no compulsion upon them?-They
have not the courage, I expect, to make such an agreement among
themselves.'
[Walter Williamson, 801.]
THE FORTY DAYS' WARNING TOO SHORT
It is proper to call attention here to the fact that in agricultural
subjects held from Martinmas to Martinmas on a yearly tack, the
forty days' warning to remove, which is held sufficient by the law
of Scotland, is objected to, with some reason, as too short. A
crofter witness makes the following statement:-
'4688. Is there anything else you wish to say?-There is only forty
days' warning given before Martinmas. No doubt that may be well
enough for tenants town like Lerwick, who hold nothing except a
room to live in, but it is very disagreeable for a tenant holding a
small piece of land as we do. As soon as our crop is taken in, we
must start work immediately, and prepare the land for next season.
We have to make provision for manure, and collect our peats, and
prepare stuff for thatching our houses, and perhaps by Martinmas
we have expended from £6 worth of labour and expense on our
little farms. In that case, it is a very hard thing for us to be turned
out of our holdings after receiving only forty days' notice, and
perhaps only getting £1 or £2 for all that labour. Now what I
would suggest is, that instead of that short notice we should be
entitled to receive a longer notice, perhaps six or nine months
before the term, that we are to be turned out.'
'4689. Do you think you would be more at liberty to dispose of
your fish, and to deal at any shop you pleased, if you were entitled
to that longer warning?-I don't think the warning would alter
anything with regard to that; but if I knew that I was to be turned
out at Martinmas, I would probably start fishing earlier, and I
might have a larger price to get for them, instead of working upon
my land.'
'4690. But you can be punished more easily by your landlord for
selling your fish to another man, when he can turn you out on forty
days' warning, than if he could only do it on six or eight months'
warning?-I think it would be much the same with regard to that.'
'4691. You don't think that would make any difference as to the
fishing?-It might make a little difference, because if I received
my warning in March, and knew that I was to leave at Martinmas,
if I saw that I was to have a better price for my fish from another, I
would not fish to my landlord at all; but I would go to any man I
would get the best price from.'
[R. Halcrow, 4688.]
The same view is taken by the Rev. James Fraser, who gave
very valuable information, both at the sitting held at Brae, and in a
subsequent letter, printed in the evidence.
[R. Fraser, 8054 sqq.]
STATEMENTS BY LANDHOLDERS AND TACKSMEN
It is unnecessary to refer in detail to mere admissions on the part
of landlords and tacksmen, that such obligations exist on the
estates under their control. Such admissions were made in all the
cases already referred to, as will be seen from the references on
the margin. In some cases, however, arguments were stated in
justification of the practice. Mr. Irvine perhaps put the case lower
than any of this class of witnesses for he simply said in regard to
Burra, that the tack had been held for a very long time by his firm,
and that when it expired many of the people owed debts, some of
which would [Page 11 rpt.] not have been recovered if the island
had passed to another fish-merchant as tacksman. He assumed
that here, as in other cases, the landlord in Shetland must depend
on the fishing for payment of his rents. Mr. Bruce, younger, of
Sumburgh thus states his views:-
'The tenants on the property in this parish managed by me are
at liberty to go to sea to the Greenland or Faroe fishing, or to
pursue any land occupation as they please; but if they remain at
home and go to the home fishing, they are expected to deliver their
fish to me, and receive for it the full market value. This is one of
the conditions on which they hold their farms, and is, I consider, a
beneficial rule for the fishermen. They must fish to some
merchant, and as I give them as high a price as they could get from
another, they are no losers, while I provide suitable curing and
fishing stations, and these stations of mine are the most convenient
places for them to deliver their fish .... This, I will endeavour to
show, is no grievance at all, but an advantage to the fishermen.'
'In looking over the whole of Shetland, it will be found that the
most prosperous districts are those under the direct management of
the landlords.'
'Many of the fishermen in this country (as, indeed, many of the
poorer classes everywhere) are unable, from want of thrift and
care, to manage their own matters in a satisfactory manner, and
require to be thought for and acted for, and generally treated like
children, and are much better off under the management of a
landlord who has an interest in their welfare, than they would be if
in the hands of a merchant whose only object was to make a profit
out of them.'
'A merchant who has no control over the fishermen, may, in
some cases, wish to get them and keep them in his debt, in order to
secure their custom; but the case of a landlord also a merchant is
quite different. It is his interest to have a prosperous, thrifty, and
independent tenantry; and he will use his utmost endeavour to
keep them out of debt, and to encourage saving habits.'
'I can see no reason why the fact of a man being a landlord
should prevent him from being also a merchant and fish-curer; and
if so, why he should not secure a lot of good fishermen by making
it one of the conditions of occupancy by his tenants, that if
fishermen they shall fish to him.'
'The very fact of a landlord being a fish-curer would lead up to
this, for tenants would naturally wish to stand well with their
landlord, and, other conditions being equal, would prefer to give
him their fish ....'
'There are, no doubt, many things in the Shetland system of
trade which might be improved; but the system has been of long
growth, and is so engrained in the minds of the people, that any
change must be very gradual: a sudden and sweeping change to
complete free-trade principles and ready-money payments would
not suit the people, but would produce endless confusion,
hardship, and increased pauperism.'
'Under the present system, with our small rentals and large
population, our poor-rates are very high. But the landlords support
a great many families which would otherwise be thrown on the
rates.'
'It is no uncommon thing, where a family is deprived of its
breadwinner, for the landlord to support the family till the younger
members grow up, and are abler to provide for themselves, and
repay the landlord's advances.'
'Abolish the present system suddenly, and I am afraid our
poor-rates would become unbearable, and nothing would save the
country but depopulation.'
[W. Irvine, 3623, 3625, 3920, 3974, etc.; P.M. Sandison, 5211; W.
Pole, 5936; J. Anderson, 6573, 6592; D. Greig, 7111, 7215; J.L.
Pole, 9370; T. Williamson, 9466, 9493, 9520; W. Robertson,
10,858, 13,667; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,299; G. Irvine, 13,130; John
Bruce, jun., p. 330a; A.J. Grierson, 15,061; John Robertson, sen.,
14,075; W. Rivine, 3916, 3920 sqq.]
And Mr. A.J. Grierson of Quendale speaks still more forcibly to
the same effect.
[A.J. Grierson, 15,062, 15,078.]
In almost every case, however, except those of Mr. Bruce and Mr.
Grierson, the condition as to fishing is spoken of by those in whose
favour it is imposed, in apologetic terms. It is plain that the right
to have men bound to give fish is regarded as a valuable one,
since tacksmen so shrewd as Messrs. Hay & Co. are willing to pay
for it a rent equal to the full amount of the sub-rents, and to
manage and uphold the property besides.
[D. Greig, 7110; W. Irvine, 3816, 3929.]
PAYMENT OF RENTS THROUGH MERCHANTS.
Although the custom of delivering fish to the landlord or his
lessee, as merchant and curer, has become less common,
that custom has left its traces in the arrangement by which it
has been superseded. [W. Irvine, 3962.] The merchants who
receive fish from the tenants have still no small concern with their
rent; and it may be said that even now the final cause of the
existing system of settlements and agreements with fishermen is to
give security to the landlord for his rent. Mr. Gifford, factor on the
largest estate in Shetland (Busta), says that there is now no
understanding with the merchants who have establishments on that
property that they shall be responsible for the rents of the men.
'There is not a single tenant on the Busta estate, out of the whole
480 on it, or out of the 530 with whom I have to do, that any
of the merchants is liable for, even as a cautioner. That used to be
the case some time before, but it has not been so for a long time.'
It does not follow, however, that the merchant has nothing to do
with the payment of the rent. Everywhere, without any exception,
rents are paid only once a year, at on about Martinmas. It was a
frequent practice, when the rent day arrived before the tenants had
received their money for fish, that they should get 'lines' from the
curer, the stated sums in which were placed to their credit by the
landlord. The sum-total of these lines was sent with a list to the
curer, who returned a cheque for the amount. A witness, [J.S.
Houston, 9657.] who speaks of the practice as it existed when he
collected Major Cameron's rents in Yell, says that there was an
understanding between Major Cameron and Sandison Brothers,
then the chief curers there, that -
'Any of Major Cameron's tenants who were what might be
called reckless or careless, should not be allowed to overdraw their
earnings, but that something should be left for their rent.'
[Page 12 rpt.]
'9661. Was Mr. Sandison a tenant of Major Cameron's in his
fish-curing premises?-Yes.'
'9662. Were these lines always in the same form?-Generally they
were the same. I have plenty of them at home.'
'9663. Are you aware of a similar practice having existed on any
other estate?-I believe it has existed; but I cannot speak so
positively about it on other estates. I may say that similar lines
have also been given to Major Cameron and myself from another
curer in North Yell, Mr. William Pole, jun., before he became a
partner of the Mossbank firm.'
'9664. Had he premises from Major Cameron also?-No; he had
his father's premises. With regard to these lines, I may state that,
although there was no understanding on the subject, Major
Cameron made it a practice not to come to his tenants asking for
their rents until he was pretty sure that everything was nearly
cut-and-dry for him.'
'9665. Do you think it is a general practice in Shetland for the
landlord to fix his rent day so as to be convenient for the
fishermen?-I think it is. They fix it after settlement. Mr.
Walker, the first year he was factor for Major Cameron, came
nearly close to his time, 11th November, but since then he has not
done so.' '9666. You are not aware whether that practice of giving
lines exists in Yell now?-It does exist. I myself have paid rents by
orders for cattle bought from Major Cameron's tenants.'
In these and similar cases the curers are not formally tacksmen,
nor indeed do they formally guarantee to the proprietors the rents
of the tenants who deliver their fish to them; but it may be said
that there is a custom having almost the force of a legal obligation,
which makes it unusual for a merchant to refuse an advance for
payment of rent even to a man who is indebted to him. An
extreme example of this custom as it prevailed in Unst is thus
described by a very intelligent merchant, Mr. Sandison:-
'I have here a letter which I wrote in 1860, and which represents
my views on that subject, and I may as well read an extract from
it:-"If we don't give unlimited advances, we are told the
fishermen will be taken from us. I have now been nearly
twelve months in this place (that was after I came first to Uyea),
and have closely watched the system pursued by proprietors and
others, and certainly agree with you that it is a bad one; but I know
I have no right to make any remarks or trouble you with my views
on that subject, further than to state that I cannot see any good that
will result from burdening the tenants with debt to the fish-curers.
It has been my desire, ever since I knew anything about Shetland
tenantry, to see them raised in the social scale, and made
thoroughly independent both of proprietors, fish-curers, and
others, and I have felt deeply interested in the -- properties, no
doubt from being more in contact with them; but when the poor
among them are in terror of the proprietors alike, and bound by
forced advances to different fish-curers, alas for liberty! and more
offered to any fish-curer who will advance more on them. This is
not calculated to raise any tenant in self-respect."
'10,025. You speak in that letter of "forced advances:" what were
these?-What I meant by that was this: the proprietor's ground
officer or agent in the island, for the time being, told the tenant
that he might fish for me this year. I found that he had only £2 or
£3 to get; and the ground officer told that tenant that if he did not
go to me and get an advance for his rent, he would take him from
me and give him to any other man who would advance the rent.
That looked very like forced advances.'
'10,026. That, however, was in 1860?-Yes.'
'10,027. Was that a common practice in those times?-I believe
that thirteen years ago truck existed ten times as much as it does
now.'
'10,028. But in 1860 was it a common thing for a proprietor's
ground officer to threaten to remove a tenant unless he could get
his rent from the fish-curer?-Yes; to threaten to remove him from
the ground unless he could pay his rent, or to move him from a
fish-curer who would not give him an advance for that purpose, to
some other fish-curer who would do so.'
'10,029. Have you known instances of fishermen who were treated
in that way?-Yes. I was referring to cases of that kind when I
was writing that letter. It was my own experience at the time
when I was at Uyeasound as a fish-curer, trying to engage any men
who came to me. Many came to me and fell into debt, because I
found that many of them required more from the shop than their
fishing amounted to; and then I advanced rent after rent, until I
saw that I was advancing to my own ruin.'
'10,030. After advancing rent in that way, have you been informed
that they were to be transferred to another fish-curer unless their
rent was still advanced by you?-Yes; in more cases than one.'
'10,031. Were you so informed by the landlord or by his factor?-
It was generally by the tenant himself, when he came seeking the
money.'
'10,032. Were you ever informed of it by the landlord, or any one
representing him?-No.'
'10,033. Had you any reason to believe the story which the
fishermen told you?-Yes. I believed them, because I knew of the
men being taken away sometimes.'
'10,034. Was that after they had made such statements to you, and
although they were in your debt?-Yes.'
'10,035. Were you able in these cases to make any arrangement
with the new employer to pay up their debt?-In some cases we
did that, but in other cases we did not; oftener we made no
arrangement ....'
'10,039. Have you, within the last twelve years, met with cases of
that sort, in which the proprietor endeavoured to coerce you to pay
his rent?-Yes. I have had cases where the tenants came asking
me for money, and I told them I could not advance them any
further. They would then go away, and come back and tell me that
the proprietor's agent or ground-officer had informed them that
they must get their rent, and that I must pay it; and that if I did not
do that, they would not be allowed to fish for me.'
'10,040. Did that system continue until 1868?-No; it prevailed
principally under the ground-officership of Mr. Sinclair, who acted
for Mrs. Mouat, in Unst.'
[C. Nicholson, 11,912-11,933; T. Tulloch, 13,008; J. Smith,
13,047-13,055; W. Robertson, 13,689; John Laurenson, 9849; M.
Henderson, 9925; J. Walker, 15,984; Andrew Tulloch, 488; L.
Williamson, 9065; A. Sandison, 10,024.]
Mr. David Edmonstone, once a fish-merchant and tacksman, now
a farmer and factor on the Buness estate in Unst, states that the
want of cash payments is the reason why this arrangement with
the curer is desired by the proprietor.
'10,640. Is it usual for the proprietor to enter into any arrangement
with the fish-curer for the payment of his rents?-We do that on
the Buness estate, and I should like to explain the reason of it. The
tenants have all been told that they are at perfect liberty to fish to
whom they like; but after they have engaged to fish to a certain
curer, we wish them to bring a guarantee from their curer or curers
for the rent of the year on which they have entered, and during
which they are to fish. Our reason for that-in fact the only
reason-is, that the men do not get money payments, and therefore
a great number of them will be [Page 13 rpt.] induced to run a
heavy account at the shop, and when we collect the rents at
Martinmas we would have nothing to get. If the men were paid in
money, daily or weekly or fortnightly, then we would make no
such arrangement, but would collect the rents directly from the
men.'
'10,641. Then, in fact, that arrangement is made in order to limit
the credit which the fish-merchant gives to his men?-Yes; and to
secure that we are to get part of that money.'
'10,642. But it has the effect of limiting their credit?-Yes.'
SPENCE & CO.'S LEASE
Since November 1868 Mr. Sandison's present firm of Spence
& Co. have been responsible as tacksmen for the rents of the
fishermen tenants of Major Cameron's estate in Unst. At that time
they obtained a tack of the estate for twelve years, which was
formerly described by Mr. Walker*, and is in some respects
peculiar. Spence & Co., as lessees of the greater part of the estate,
which includes nearly half of the island, pay a fixed sum of rent
(£1100), and are bound to expend, or to get the sub-tenants to
expend, a certain annual sum on improvements at the sight of the
proprietor. Regulations for the cultivation of the small farms are
annexed to the lease, and are to form conditions of the sub-leases
to be granted by Spence & Co. The effect of these regulations and
of the lease is thus explained by Mr. Sandison: [Comp. J. Walker,
15,977.]
* Truck Commission Evidence, qu. 44,450 sq. <See> Appx.
'10,159. Any tenants not complying with these regulations may
be removed by you?-Yes; they will get their leases unless they
comply with them, and we can remove them at any time ....'
'10,161. How many of the tenants have adopted these
regulations?-I should say that, to a greater or less extent, they
have all made a fair commencement in the improvements and
rotation of cropping.'
'10,162. But you have absolute power to remove them if they do
not comply with that?-We have. The property is absolutely let to
us, and we can absolutely turn them out if they do not comply with
the regulations. The lease is clear enough upon that point.'
'10,163. Have you had occasion to exercise that power?-Not in
any case.'
'10,164. Have you threatened to do so?-Not so far as is known to
me.'
'10,165. There is no obligation on the tenants, under this lease,
either to fish for you or to sell the produce of their farms to your
firm?-No; it is long since I read the lease, but I don't think there
is anything of that sort in it.'
'10,166. In point of fact, is there any understanding on the part of
the tenants that they are bound to do so?- No.'
'10,167. You have told them that they are under no such
obligation?-Yes.'
'10,168. But, in point of fact, most of them do sell their fish to
you?-They do.'
'10,169. And, in point of fact, most of them do sell their eggs and
butter to you?-I think the great bulk of them do, but I cannot tell so
well about the butter and eggs. We buy fully as much now at
Uyea Sound we did in any season before the company
commenced.'
'10,170. And a number of the tenants also run accounts for shop
goods with your shops?-Yes; I think most of them do so ....'
'10,174. But although this lease does not contain an express
condition that the tenants are to fish for you, it gives you a power
of ejecting them?-Of course it does.'
'10,175. And the tenants are aware of that?-Yes.'
'10,176. And of course they may feel a little more unwilling to
deal with another party or to fish for him in consequence? -That
may be. I don't know what their private feelings may be, but the
lease gives us a stronger power than that: it reserves the peats, and
what could they do without peats? We have absolute power in that
respect, if we choose to put it in force, but I hope never to see that
done. We can refuse them peats altogether and scattald altogether,
and we can shut them up altogether, but I hope I will never live to
see that day.'
'10,177. In short, you can do anything you please with the tenants,
except deprive any one of his holding who complies with these
rules and regulations?-Yes.'
'10,178. The only security he has is to comply with them?-Yes.'
'10,179. As to the peats and scattalds, he has no security at all?-
None.'
The rental annexed to the leases contains a list of 170 tenants,
paying £834, 19s. 4d., exclusive of certain farms which do not fall
under the lease until the expiry of current tacks. The surplus rent
paid by Spence & Co. is understood to be for the scattalds.
Mr. Spence, the senior partner of the firm of Spence & Co., speaks
of this liability of the curer for rent as a serious obstacle to the
introduction of a system of cash payments, which he and his
partners desire; but it is obvious that if payments were made in
cash, no such guarantees could reasonably be asked from the
curers. [J. Spence, 10,580 f.n.]
The evidence of Mr. Sandison above quoted, the belief which the
men themselves entertain, and the statements of Mr. Walker, the
factor on the estate, show that the tenants on this property can
hardly decline to fish for Spence & Co., even if there were other
large merchants in Unst who could furnish them with materials
and supplies, and purchase their fish. If they are not bound to sell
their fish to Spence & Co., they have no opportunity and no liberty
to sell them to any one else. [J. Harper, 10,404; J. Walker,
15,999.]
RESTRICTION OF FISHERMEN BY LETTING OF BEACHES
A limitation of the freedom of the fishermen arises in some
districts where they are nominally free, from the beaches and
fishing stations being let to particular curers, so that other
merchants are excluded from the market; and even it would seem
the fishermen are disabled, by the want of a suitable beach for
drying their fish, from curing for themselves. There is not much
evidence on this matter, which was brought under my notice at a
late period of the inquiry by a statement made with regard to the
fishermen at Spiggie and Ireland, in Dunrossness. The Act 29
Geo. II. c. 23 gives fishermen ample [Page 14 rpt.] powers to erect
all apparatus and booths necessary for curing their fish on waste
land within a hundred yards of high-water mark; but perhaps it
could not be held as Mr. J. Harrison seems to think, to prevent a
proprietor from enclosing and letting any part of his land adjacent
to the sea for the purposes of a curing establishment.
[R. Henderson, 12,841; A. Irvine, 13,501; R. Mullay, 15,144; John
Robertson, jun., 15,159; John Harrison, 16,470; T.M. Adie, 5762;
Jas. Robertson, 8466; G. Gaunson, 8863; A. Sandison, <passim>; J.
Spence, <passim>; John Harrison, 16,470.]
____________________________________
TRUCK SYSTEM-ADVANCES AND SETTLEMENTS.
The existing Truck Act (as well as the Bill now before Parliament)
prohibits the payment of wages in goods in the various trades to
which it applies. Even, therefore, if fishermen formed one of the
classes of workmen falling under the Act, they would not be
protected by it, because they do not receive wages, but are paid a
price for their fish. One result of this is, that Truck, as it exists in
Shetland, is without disguise or concealment. No machinery has
been contrived for evading the law; and almost all the masters, and
even some of the fishermen, regard the system which prevails, as
wholesome, natural, and indeed inevitable.
I have already explained that the price of the fish is ascertained
and settled only for once in the year. But fishermen, as Adam
Smith remarks, have been poor since the days of Theocritus;
and in Shetland the Truck system begins when, his farm produce
failing to support the family, the fisherman farmer finds it
necessary to obtain from the 'merchant' supplies or advances
before the time of settlement, and, it may be, a boat, fishing
materials, and provisions, to enable him to prosecute his calling.
In Shetland the merchant needs to use no influence or compulsion
to bring the fisherman to his shop. He has no black-list, and has to
enforce no penalties for 'sloping.' As the laws against Truck do
not apply to him, even remotely, he scarcely ever seeks to conceal
the fact that the earnings of those whom he employs are paid to a
large extent, in goods, and he is even prepared with arguments in
vindication of the practice. The man whose farm cannot keep
his family until settlement, comes, as a matter of course, to the
fish-curer's store; and even the thriving and prosperous man, who
has money in the bank, 'almost invariably' has an account at the
shop. In the great majority cases there is a mutual understanding,
that when a merchant buys your fish, you ought in fairness to get at
least a part of your goods at his shop.
[Andrew Tulloch, 509; L. Mail, 568; W. Williamson, 855; P.M.
Sandison, 5146; Rev. D. Miller, 5998; J. Brown, 7986, 7997; T.M.
Adie, 5633; 5735; A. Tulloch, 5472, 5501; John Anderson, 6546;
G. Robertson, 9311; G. Gilbertson, 9557; J. Laurenson, 9837; M.
Henderson, 9830-1; J. Harper, 10,387; C. Nicolson, 11,939; A.
Abernethy, 12,268; L. Garriock, p. 303a etc., 12,347, 12,356,
12,360, 12,388 sq.; T. Hutchison, 12,686; L. Henderson, 12,744;
J. Halcrow, 13,090; R. Simpson, 13,980; John Robertson, jun.,
15169.]
'There is a tacit understanding' says the Rev D. Miller, 'at
least that they must do that; but I believe that is induced by the
circumstance, that for a large portion of the year their money is in
the merchants' hands, and that again affords the kind of facility for
running into debt which I have spoken of.'
'5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they
otherwise would do?-I think so.'
'6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The
remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as
possible and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state
how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the
fisherman's money is all in the merchant's hands; but he is
requiring goods in the meantime and he has money to procure
them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures his
goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his own
price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where there is
a credit system like the present, there are a large number of
defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the
merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men
have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on
his business unless that were done. He must have his losses
covered; and a system of that sort tells very heavily upon the
public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of
profit.'
The existence of such an understanding is sometimes denied, as by
Mr. Pole, a merchant; but he evidently means only that there is no
expressed bargain or arrangement. He adds, at the same time
(speaking of the women employed at so much per ton in collecting
kelp, who, like every other class of people in Shetland, have
similar accounts), that they take a considerable part of their wages
in goods:
'5925. Is there any expectation or understanding, when these
women are engaged, that they shall open an account and take their
wages, or the greater part of them, in goods at your shop?-No,
there is no understanding; but we have every reason to believe that
they will come to us, because they cannot manage otherwise.'
'5926. Are the goods which they take generally provisions or soft
goods?-Chiefly provisions, but some soft goods too.'
'5927. In engaging these women, do you give any preference to
those who deal at your shop?-No; but they mostly all deal there.'
'5928. Has each of them a ledger account in her own name with you?-Yes.'
A very observant and shrewd witness, speaking of the lobster and
oyster trade, in which he is engaged, says:
[Page 15 rpt.]
'11,817. I understood you to say that when the men come with
oysters and lobsters to the shop, and were paid, they generally took
away some supplies from the shop?-They generally do, but they
are not asked to do it.'
'11,818. Do they appear to think it a fair and proper thing that they
should do so?-I think they do.'
'11,819. Is that a common sort of feeling, among the men?-Yes,
it is it common feeling in the country.'
'11,820. In short, they apologize if they don't spend the money in
the shop where they get it?-Something like that. I should not say
that they apologize, but sometimes they tell me what they want the
money for, and they say they have to take it away. Of course they
are not asked to leave it.'
'11,821. But there seems to be it kind of understanding that they
are to spend part of their earnings in the shop?-The people seem
to have the opinion that they ought to do that.'
'11,822. And I suppose the merchant has some feeling of the same
kind also?-I never ask them to spend the money in the shop; but
of course we are glad to get what money we can.'
'11,823. I suppose they don't require to be asked to spend some of
it?-No.'
[W. Harcus, 11,817.]
CASH ADVANCES
There is a reluctance on the part of the men to ask for an advance
of cash, arising partly from the feeling I have mentioned, and
partly from the habitual and natural reluctance of the merchant to
give it. When cash is given, it is for a special purpose, such as the
payment of rent or taxes, or the purchase of some article which the
merchant himself cannot supply.
[P. Peterson, 6845; J. Laurenson, 9872; W.G. Mouat, 10,249; C.
Nicholson, 11,977; l. Garriock, 12,589; J. Robertson, 8484; T.
Robertson, 8597, J. Harrison, 16,509.]
'4973. Does Mr. Grierson advance you money in the course of the
year before settlement when you ask for it?-He does.'
'4974. Can you not take that money and deal with it at any other
store that suits you better than Mr. Grierson's?-We do that very
often.'
'4975. Then how is it that you say that you have not the means of
dealing where you choose?-What I mean by that is, that we don't
have the chance to do it so often as we would like to do it; and we
don't like to be always running to him for money for the small
things we require. It is only in particular cases, when we require it
pound or so to help us, that we ask it from him.'
[James Flawes, 4973-5.]
'8522. You say you were not bound to do it: is it common for
men to feel that they are bound to do that?-Of course. If I was
employed by a curer or a merchant, and had been in the habit of
dealing with another before I was employed by him, I would
consider it something like a duty, in a moral point of view, to put my
money into his shop; and I have done so, although I have never
been obligated to do it.'
[P. Blanch, 8522.]
In some cases the evidence shows that cash advances during the
season have been absolutely refused, or that at least it is thought
useless to ask for them. Thus, says Malcolm Malcolmson:
'3004. Did you consider yourselves bound to take goods from
Mouat's store?-We could not do anything else.'
'3005. Why?-Because we had no money to purchase them with
from other stores. We received no money during the fishing
season.'
'3006. Did you ever ask for advances of money during the fishing
season?-Yes; but they were refused.'
'3007. Why?-Because he just would not give it. He gave no
reason, except that he could not give it.'
[M. Malcolmson.]
[W. Manson, 3040; J. Nicholson, 8747.]
The merchant, both in Faroe fishing and ling fishing, naturally
prefers to make any necessary advances in goods rather than
money:
.. 'They make advances, perhaps before, but as soon the men
engage to go to the fishing. It may be about this time, or it may
be a month previous to this, when they make the engagement to
go.'
'8526. And they make an advance then either in cash or in
out-takes?-I don't think they will likely give much cash. They
may give 8s. or 10s. in cash; but unless they know the man is to be
depended upon, I don't think they will give much more. They may
give £1 to a man until he has made some earning by his fishing;
but unless it is a case where they know it can be paid back again
by the man otherwise, they will not give it. He may pay it out of
his stock, for instance, or he may have some other means.'
[Peter Blanch.]
It was common in the past-though now cash is given more
readily, at least in Lerwick and by the leading merchants-to
refuse money before settlement, while the merchant was quite
willing to advance to any reasonable amount in goods. This
preference is sometimes shown very unmistakeably even in
settling for the winter fish. This applies to Faroe still more than
to ling fishing.
[W. Williamson, 821, 833; C. Sinclair, 1177; A. Tulloch, 5495; J.
Anderson, 6550; J. Goodlad, 1188; J, Manson, 2962.]
The truth as to cash advances is very succinctly stated by a large
employer, Mr. John Anderson of Hillswick, who says: 'I think they
would not get cash (before settlement) unless they were clear, or unless
we had good cause to know that they were really in
necessity for something.'
[J. Anderson, 6546; A. Sandison, 7076; J. Robertson, 8484; T. Hutchison, 12,637.]
But although witnesses do not speak of many cases of actual
refusal to advance money before settlement, it is well understood
that the merchant, to whom the men look for more or less liberal
support in bad seasons, prefers to make advances in goods. The
Shetland peasant is quick to comprehend and act upon such a
feeling; and hence the understanding is almost universal that cash
is asked for only within [Page 16 rpt.] very moderate limits, even
by unindebted men, and the particular purpose for which it is
wanted is generally specified.
There are, of course, differences in the readiness with which cash
is advanced by the various merchants, as the returns made to me
show. Thus there is unanimous testimony to the fact, that Mr.
John Bruce, jun., whose 'bondage' and prices were most loudly
complained of, never refuses money advances before settlement,
when asked, to the full amount of the fish at a man's credit, and, in
the case of a good man, to any reasonable amount he may ask for.
In some places, advances are mostly made at the settlement of the
previous year, to men who have got as much money as they
require.
[L. Smith, 4457, 4486; H. Gilbertson, 4533; G. Leslie, 4629; R.
Halcrow, 4676; A. Leslie, 4885; G. Williamson, 4905; J. Bruce,
Jun., 13,322; G. Irvine, 13, 162; J.L. Pole, 9391.]
The effect of the long settlements in compelling men to deal at the
merchant's shop is very clear to the men themselves, although they
do not appear to regard it as a great hardship, except where the
goods at a particular shop are of bad quality or high price. William
Goudie says:
'4298. Are you under any obligation to buy your goods from Mr.
Bruce's shop?-Not strictly speaking.'
'4299. What do you mean by "not strictly speaking?"-In one sense
we are not bound, yet in another sense we are bound. There is no
rule issued out that we must purchase our goods from there; but as
we fish for Mr. Bruce, and have no ready money, we can hardly
expect to run accounts with those who have no profit from us.
That confines many of us to purchase our goods from his shop.'
.....'We cannot expect to run a heavy account with a man who has
no profit from us, when we are uncertain whether we will be able
to clear that account or not. Therefore, as a rule, we do not run
heavy accounts for such things as meal, for instance, when our
crops are a failure, with any man except Mr. Bruce.'
[Wm. Goudie, 4928, 4307.]
[L. Smith, 4480, 4488.]
And another witness says:
'4669. But if the prices are so much higher at the Boddam shop
than elsewhere, why do you go there when you say you are not
obliged in any way to take goods from the Boddam shop? Why do
you not go to Gavin Henderson's for them?-I am obliged to go to
the Boddam shop and take my goods there if I have no money in
my pocket to buy them elsewhere.'
'4670. Does that often happen?-Perhaps not very often with me,
but it happens as a general thing among many of the men. I
believe there are as many men who have to go to Mr. Bruce's store
and take their goods there, in consequence of the want of money to
pay for them at other places, as there are who can go and open
accounts with other merchants and pay them yearly'
[R. Halcrow, 4669.]
MEN MUST DEAL AT CURER'S SHOP
The main reason why men must deal with the fish-curer is,
that most of them have neither money nor credit elsewhere. The
fish-curer is secured in the fisherman's services for the fishing
season, and holds his earnings in his hands for a year. He cannot
lose by him, unless he voluntarily allows his 'out-takes' to exceed
his earnings. But other shopkeepers have no such security; indeed
they know that the man is already engaged to fish for a rival
shopkeeper, and that the latter will not only pay himself for his
possibly large account, but will also retain the man's rent, leaving
for other creditors at best but a small balance, and not always a
balance, of his earnings. Add to this that in bad seasons many
fishermen depend on the merchants for larger advances than one
season's fishing can repay, and it becomes apparent that the
attraction to the merchant's shop is not only the possibility of
present credit, but gratitude for past favours, and the certain
expectation of having to ask for similar favours in future. It is
quite true, as Mr. Irvine says, that 'one great drawback on a
Shetland business is fishermen's bad debts, and our chief study is
to limit the supplies when we know the men to be improvident; but
it is quite impossible to keep men clear when the fishing proves
unsuccessful.' And there is evidence that in bad seasons, such as
1868-69, merchants are expected to advance, and do advance,
large amounts in meal and other necessaries, and in cash for rent.
Where such advances are made, the fishermen are of course
bound, sometimes by a written obligation, to fish for their creditor
next season.
[M. Johnson, 7909, 7921, 7928; James Brown, 7977; C.
Georgeson, 12,126; James Hay, 5401; W. Irvine, 3623, p. 83b
3793; A. Sandison, 10,016; J. Hay, 10,540; A.J. Grierson, 15,089;
W. Irvine, 3796.]
The habit of dealing on credit at the fish-curer's store is so
inveterate, that even men who have means to buy their provisions,
etc., frequently begin the account for the year at the very time of
settlement. Mr. Grierson says:
'15,096. But do you think a man would stand permanently in arrear
at settlement with you if he had money in the bank?-No; but if I
settle with him in January, I believe he would go and deposit a £10
note from that year's settlement, and begin a new account with
me, and get a new boat, and let it stand to his credit until next year.
But he would never think of having a permanent running balance with me if
he had money of his own in bank.'
'15,097. Is it a general thing among the men to go and deposit
some of their money in bank and begin a new account with you?-
Yes, I believe they do that for a single year. They would be great
fools if they did not. They keep a pass-book, if they choose, with,
the shop, and they would be no better off if they were to pay for
their goods in money.'
[A.J. Grierson, 15,096.]
[Page 17 rpt.]
'Plenty of them,' says Mr. Peter Garriock, speaking of Faroe
fishers, 'are able to live on their own resources, but still they come
for their supplies;'and he gives an example, which is not a solitary
one. Mr. John Harrison says:
... 'The system has obtained so long, of fishermen requiring
advances, or rather taking advances, that they cannot see, or do not
understand, why they should take their own money in order to buy
the necessary supplies before they proceed to the fishing. I have
no doubt that they have also this idea, that the fish-curer takes a
sufficient profit upon the goods supplied, and they consider they
have a right to keep their money and not to pay for them until the
end of the season.'
[P. Garriock, 15,223; W.B.M. Harrison, 15,724; John Harrison,
16,511]
It is of course a result of this system, that a large shop business,
in many districts, can be carried on only by one who has a
fish-curing establishment. In Lerwick and in Walls, in one case
in Dunrossness (Gavin Henderson), and perhaps in Unst, some
shops have succeeded without the aid of fishing, but always under
difficulties. Fish-curers have also attempted to confirm or extend
this monopoly by artificial means, such as the prohibition of rival
shops,-as in Burra, Whalsay, Unst, Northmaven, Fetlar , and Yell.
[T. Williamson, 9463; G. Georgeson, 12,111; A. Sandison,
10,133.]
It has thus come to pass that there is almost nowhere in
Shetland, out of Lerwick, a shop of any size not belonging to a
fish-curer. I attempted to ascertain the views of various small
shopkeepers, struggling to make a trade, with regard to their
larger neighbours. Sometimes these men did not understand the
disadvantage under which they are placed; or they may have had
views of eventually rising by the same means which have led
their competitors on to fortune; or, as there was sometimes
reason to suspect, they may have been put into business by a
larger merchant to sell his goods on commission, or have been
otherwise indebted to him or dependent upon him. Whatever may
be the cause, shopkeepers of this class are not so sensitive, or
not so communicative, on this point as might be expected. One
or two, however, were found independent enough, or intelligent
enough, to tell how their business is hampered and confined
by the local custom, which thirls the men to the shops of the
fish-merchants. Mr. Georgeson, a respectable shopkeeper in the
parish of Walls not engaged in fish-curing, says that men who sell
their fish green are necessarily less frequent customers of his than
those who cure their own fish. He thinks that the skipper generally
influences his men to take their supplies from the shop of the
merchant, or at least that the men are apt to be guided to do so by
his example; while his neighbour, Mr. Twatt, thinks 'there is a
little bribe which the skippers get for seeing that the men go to the
shop.' I give this, however, merely as an opinion by a shrewd but
not disinterested local observer. The force of custom, the want of
ready money, and the other influences already mentioned, are
quite sufficient to account for the great amount of this kind of
Truck which exists in Shetland, without having recourse to the
supposition that skippers or others are bribed to induce men to
buy goods at the employer's shop.
[G. Georgeson, 12,122; J. Twatt, 12,200; R. Henderson, 12,860.]
ARGUMENTS FOR PRESENT SYSTEM
I have said that some of the employers are prepared with
arguments to vindicate the system of annual settlements. The
favourite argument is, that it affords the men, or at least a certain
class of them, protection against their own improvidence. For
instance, Mr. P.M. Sandison says:
'5235. Does not that system of long settlements induce people to
be a little careless about their money, and improvident?-There
are a certain class who, if they had money, would spend it. That
class are pretty well looked after by the fish-curer; they are only
allowed advances in such small proportions as enable them to get
through the year, and to be as little in arrear as possible at the end.
If these same parties had the money in their hands, I am certain it
would not last them so long as it does in the fish-curer's hands.'
'5236. That is to say, he will only allow them certain amount of
supplies from the shop?-Yes, so much a week or a fortnight.'
'5237. Or cash if they want it, but to a limited extent?-Yes; I
should think that cash would be given to a free man.'
'5238. But not to a bound fisherman?-Not unless it was for a
necessary purpose-to purchase something, for instance, which
the merchant cannot supply.'
[P. Smith, 986; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,372; W. Irvine, 3641, 3826; J.
Anderson, 6707; Rev. J. Sutherland, 7518; A. Harrison, 7664; T.
Gifford, 8102-8124; D. More, 9634; A. Sandison, p.248 f.n. to
10,205, 10,483; J. Spence, 10.559.]
The members of the firm which holds the lands and fishings in
Unst urged strongly that only a large concern like theirs would
have the interests of the men in view as well as their own, and, by
possessing a monopoly and restricting the men's credit, keep them
free from debt. With this view they have made war against small
shops in that island. The returns show that they have not yet
succeeded in keeping the men free from debt.
[A. Sandison, 10,494; J. Spence, 10,559.]
The sort of partnership that exists between merchant and
fisherman, the latter being paid in proportion to the results of
the whole year's transactions, is the chief excuse for delaying
settlements. The views of the merchants on this point may be
seen from the following passage in the examination of Mr.
Robertson, manager for Mr. Leask, one of the chief merchants in
Shetland. Mr. Robertson came forward with other [Page 18 rpt.]
merchants for the purpose of denying the Report of Mr. Hamilton
to the Board of Trade, and the other statements made in the
previous inquiry:-
... 'Then I deny that the truck system in an open or disguised
form prevails in Shetland to an extent which is unknown in any
other part of the United Kingdom. I have no proof to offer in
contradiction of that statement; I simply deny it, and I don't
believe it.'
'13,698. What is the population of Shetland?-About 30,000.'
'13,699. Of these, how many do you suppose consist of fishermen
and their families?-I should say that perhaps about three-fourths
of them are fishermen and seamen, and their families.'
'13,700. I suppose the seamen are mostly the younger members of
the families?-Yes.'
'13,701. Is it not the case that almost every fisherman has an
account with the merchant to whom he sells his fish?-Yes; but I
don't consider that to be truck at all.'
'13,702. That account is settled at the end of the year, part of the
value of the man's fish being taken out in supplies of goods, and
the balance being paid in cash, if any balance is due?-Yes. He
simply has an account, in the same way that all the retail
merchants in Shetland and everywhere else have to deal with
wholesale merchants, and have to pay them.'
'13,703. Do you suppose Mr. Hamilton meant anything else than
that by saying that the truck system prevailed in Shetland?-I am
not bound to know what he meant, but I deny his statement.'
'13,704. I presume he merely intended to state that a great part of
the earnings of every fisherman, as well as of some other people in
Shetland, were really settled by taking out goods from the
employers. Do you suppose he meant anything else than that?-I
am afraid he did. I am afraid he meant to convey the idea that the
men got nothing but goods when they should have got money.'
'13,705. Is it not the case that many of them do get nothing but
goods?-That is their own fault.'
'13,706. Still it may be the fact, although it is their own fault?-It
may be the fact, because the men earn very little, and they require
supplies of provisions and clothing; and no person would give
them such supplies unless the person who employs them. But I
don't think that is truck, in the common meaning of the word.'
'13,707. Then the difference between you is rather a dispute about
the meaning of the word "truck" than as to the actual state of
matters in Shetland?-I would not even admit that. I don't think
there is any room for complaint about the state of matters in
Shetland, as a rule.'
'13,708. I suppose you mean that the fishermen have a certain
advantage by getting advances of goods? -Of course they have.'
'13,709. But you do not mean to deny the fact that they do get such
advances when they require them?- Of course I don't deny that;
but the shipowner or curer runs a great risk in advancing goods on
the security of fish which have to be caught. It is a very good
thing in a good season, but in a bad season he may come rather
short.'
'13,710. On the other hand, he does not pay for the fish that are
caught until six or seven months afterwards?-He does not realize
them until then. None of the fishcurers get one penny for their fish
until about the end of December, except perhaps for a very small
parcel which they may send to a retail dealer in the south.'
'13,711. That may be quite true; but is any employer of labour in a
better position?-Yes.'
'13,712. A farmer, for instance, pays his labourers weekly or
fortnightly, as the case may be, and he very often does not realize
his crops until many months afterwards?-That is true; but he is
selling his butter and milk and cattle.'
'13,713. Still it does not follow that he is paid for them at the
time?-Cattle, I think, are generally paid for in cash.'
'13,714. But there are other producers, such as manufacturers, who
are only paid by long-dated bills, generally at three months?-Yes;
but here the merchant does not get his return until the end of
twelve months. The fish-merchant or curer begins to advance
in the beginning of January, and he continues to advance until the
end of December, without getting any money back; so that he lies
out of his money for twelve months. He neither gets money from
the party to whom he advances the goods, nor from the party to
whom he sells his fish.'
'13,715. Do you think that is the main justification for the long
settlements which are made with the men?-Of course it is.'
The real or imaginary necessity under which the men are placed,
of dealing at the merchant's shop, is demonstrated by their taking
meal and other bulky articles a distance of many miles to their
own houses, although there are shops nearer home where they could be
purchased of as good quality, and it would seem
sometimes better and cheaper. Thus James Hay says:
'5343. Do you deal at his shop for all your provisions and your
purchases of cotton and other things?-I do for the principal part
of what I need, but not altogether.'
'5344. How far do you live from Mr. Adie's nearest shop?-About
71/2 miles; his shop is at Voe.'
'5345. Do you always go there for what you want?-Yes; generally
I do that, unless sometimes when I am needing some small things,
I may go to another: but I am not bound to go to his shop unless I
choose to go.'
'5346. Then why do you go so far?-Because I generally fish to
Mr. Adie, and I have the greatest part of my dealings with him. I
have not been accustomed to shift very much, unless it might be an
inconvenience to me, and sometimes I have gone to another
shop.'. . .
'5399. Are you under any obligation to go to Mr. Adie's shop for
the goods you want in the course of the year?-None that I am
aware of.'
'5400. You have never been told it of course; but is it a great deal
more convenient for you to go there than to deal at another
shop?-No; it is not more convenient. I could go to a shop
somewhat nearer; but still I don't think I would be any better; and
as it has always been my custom to go there, I just continue to go.'
'5401. Is it only because it is your custom to go, or is it because
you are in the way of delivering your fish to Mr. Adie, that you go
to his store?-Mr. Adie has been very obliging to me many a time,
by helping me when I could not help myself, and therefore I
always felt a warm heart towards him, and went to his store.'
'5402. But is it the way with the fishermen here, that they go to
the shop of the man that they sell their fish to?-I am not able to
speak to that except for myself.'
'5403. Do you not know what your neighbours do? -It depends on
the circumstances that my neighbours are in. If they are indebted
to the man they are fishing to, of course they will go to that man,
and perhaps have very little to go to him with.'
'5404. Are those neighbours of yours who are so indebted also
likely to engage to fish for the same the merchant during the
following season?-Yes. When a man is short of money, and has
not enough with [Page 19 rpt.] which to pay his land rent, he may
go to the man he is fishing to, and he will help him with what he
requires; but the understanding in that case is, that he will serve
him at the fishing for the rising year. That is generally the way it is
done.'
'5405. Do you mean that when a man gets advances at a
merchant's shop, it is understood that he must fish to him
in the coming year?-Yes; that is generally understood.'
[James Hay, 5352 etc.; W. Green, 5860 (Voe to Sullom); W.
Blance, 6057, 6118 (Voe to Ollaberry); G. Scollay, 8417; J.
Robertson, 8454 (Muckle Roe to Hillswick); J. Johnston, 9552
(Voe to Burravoe); T. Robertson, 8590.]
So John Twatt, a merchant, says:
'12,210. Is it not the fact that men who live near you do go to
Reawick for supplies, although it is much farther away?-Yes.'
'12,211. And although it is inconvenient?-Yes, it is inconvenient.
They could do much better by coming to my shop, which is next
door to them, and they could get as good articles at the same price
as they can at Reawick.'
'12,212. How far is it from your place to Reawick?-I think it is
about 10 or 12 miles.'
'12,213. When the men go there for meal or other supplies, are
these supplies brought across the country?-Sometimes they are
brought by boats, and sometimes round by the rocks.'
BOATS AND FISHING MATERIALS.
Advances by the fish-curer to fishermen, in the form of boats and
fishing materials, form a very material portion of the debits in the
men's accounts. For the most part the boats used in the ling
fishing belong to the men. It is generally understood that when a
crew gets a new boat, it is to be paid up in three years. Sometimes
a good fishing enables them to pay it the first year; more
frequently the payment extends beyond the three years-generally
for five fishing seasons. The price of the boat is charged against
the crew, which has a company account in the merchant's books,
and they are labourers jointly and severally liable for the whole.
When a boat is furnished, it is always understood that the men are
to continue to fish for the merchant who furnishes it until the
whole price is paid; and this of course constitutes a bond over the
men for three or more years, as the case may be. Sometimes hire
is charged for the boat, or for the boat and lines. A new boat,
ready for sea, costs £20; if supplied with new lines, the whole cost
will be from £35 to £40. The men agree to pay £6 as hire for boat
and lines, or £2 to £3 for the boat, for the period of the summer
fishing. In Yell and other places, the merchant, for this hire,
undertakes the risk of the whole. On the west coast of Shetland,
the rate charged as hire and the amount of the annual instalment of
the price of the boat and lines appear to be the same; and the lines,
if lost, are understood, it is said, to be at the risk of the men in both
cases, which is an inversion of the ordinary rule of law in location.
It is generally said that little or no profit is derived by merchants
from boat hires or the sale of boats. In some places, however,
those who are anxious to get into business make deductions from
the boat hire; in order to get men to agree to fish to depending
entirely for their profit on the fish and goods sold. Hence it may
be inferred, either that the hires charged are sufficient to
remunerate the merchant for his outlay and risk, or that the profits
made from the fish and goods sold are so large as to allow of this
bonus being given.
[W. Irvine, 3838; T.M. Adie, 5607; T. Tulloch, 12,960; G. Irvine,
13,272; O. Jamieson, 13,396; P.M. Sandison, 5206; T.M. Adie,
5610; W. Pole, 5881, 5890, 5953; D. Greig, 7125, 7153, 7209; L.
Williamson, 9092; John Laurenson, 9856; T. Tulloch, 12,958; A.
Johnson, 14,933; T.M. Adie, 5638, 5642; P. Peterson, 6808; A.
Sandison, 10,133; C. Nicholson, 11,950; L. Williamson, 9092; T.
Williamson, 9514.]
With regard to lines and hooks, and such things as the men require
for the fishing, they are bound or expected at most places to buy
them from the merchant for whom they fish.
[J. Robertson, 8454; P. Blanch, 8717.]
Turning from the debit to the credit side of the account between
the curer and the fisherman, the most important branch of the
latter is the price of the fish. This is fixed in Shetland only when
the annual sales of cured fish have been effected, <i.e.> in
September or October. The understanding is that the men shall get
the current price. This is not ascertained in any formal way; but as
there is little difference between the prices obtained by the various
curers, each calculates for himself how much he can afford to give
to the crews for the green fish, and pays accordingly. There is
always, of course, some knowledge, more or less vague and
general, of the prices obtained and given by other curers, and
there may be a consultation of some kind between the leading
merchants. In some cases, curers, especially those who are in a
small way, wait until the leading merchants have settled with their
men, and thus avoid questions with their men. In all cases the men
hear how much their neighbours have got for their green fish; and
it may be supposed that there is sufficient competition for men to
ensure that the highest possible sum will be given. The fishermen
themselves, however, do not seem to be satisfied of this, and there
is an impression among some of them that 'the current price' of
green fish is fixed by arrangement among the merchants at a lower
rate than they might afford. This belief has originated, or has been
encouraged, by the fact that the dealers of Cunningsburgh, in
Sandwick parish, have for some years paid considerably more than
'the current price.' In 1871, the usual payment to fishermen was
8s. per cwt. of wet fish, which was thus ascertained: 21/4 cwt. of
wet fish are calculated to produce [Page 20 rpt.] cwt dry. The
current price of dry fish was 23s. per cwt.; cost of curing is usually
estimated at 2s. 6d. per cwt. dry (or by Mr. Irvine at 3s.). Thus:-
Price of 21/2- cwt. wet ling, at 8s., 18s. 0d.
Cost of curing, at 2s. 6d., 2s. 6d.
Merchants' profit and commission, 2s. 6d., 2s. 6d.
Total, 23s.
or about 11 per cent.* Merchants say that the cost of curing is
actually greater than 2s. 6d. per cwt., and that their profit has to
cover not only the risk of bad debts and insurance, but likewise
a loss upon boat hires and sales, which never remunerate.
Fishermen, on the other hand, assert that curing never costs so
much as 2s. 6d. per cwt.; and they appeal, in support of this, not only
to their experience in curing their own fish, but to the higher
rates paid by Messrs. Smith & Tulloch in Sandwick parish The
reply, as regards these merchants, is that they sell to retail
merchants direct, and thus save profit of the middlemen or
wholesale purchasers; but there is evidently a feeling of irritation
among other fishcurers, because they have broken in upon the
practice of paying a uniform price throughout the islands. A
similar question with regard to the cost of curing has been raised
in the Faroe fishing.
[L.F.U. Garriock, 12,581; W. Irvine, 3742; J.L. Pole, 9423; J.
Bruce, jun., 13,332; J. Flawes, 4919; A.J. Grierson, 15,105; L.
Williamson, 9085; A. Sandison, 10,154; L. Williamson, 9097; T.
Williamson, 9515, 9536; L. Mail, 662; R. Halcrow, 4694; G.
Blance; 5561; A. Sandison, 7062; J. Nicholson, 8721; J. Flawes,
4990; J.S. Houston, 9673; W. Irvine, 3623; W. Pole, 5882 sqq.;
J.S. Houston, 9698; A. Sandison, 10,125; W. Robertson, 13, 646;
L.F.U. Garriock, 12,565.]
Some men complain because they do not know what they are
to get for their fish and that they 'work away as if they were blind;'
but it is said on in a few cases where a price has been fixed at the
beginning of the season and the price that has risen, the men have
grumbled, and the curer has been obliged to pay the higher current
price in order to retain the future services of the men. There is
not, however, sufficient evidence to justify the conclusion that
Shetland fishermen would, as a body, resent a merchant's
adherence to a bargain which on other occasions must turn out to
be a favourable one for themselves and a losing one for him. If
there is any advantage in the present system, it is, as the Rev. Mr.
Fraser points out, on the side of the fisherman, who is less able
than the merchant to foresee the probable course of the market,
and who, if the suggested change were adopted, would have to
take, in the run of cases, such a price as the merchant might judge
safe for himself.
[James Hay, 5375; A.J. Grierson, 15,081; P. Garriock, 15,228; J. S.
Houston, 9862; A. Sandison, 10,009; Rev. J. Fraser, 8071, but see P.
Blanch, 8546.]
*CURERS' PROFITS.
Mr. Irvine (3623) says the prices of last year leave only
40s. per ton to the curer, out of which he has to pay store rent,
weighing, skippers' fees, gratuities to fishermen, and to meet loss
by small and damaged fish, and of interest and risk. The total
quantity of cod, ling, and hake landed from open boats and cured
in Shetland in the year ending 31st December 1871, according
to the returns made to the Fisheries Board, was 46,391 cwt.
If we suppose that the expenses which are to be paid out of the
fishcurers' 2s. per cwt. amount to 6d. per cwt., there remains a
sum of £3479, 6s. 8d., as the total profit earned by thirty-seven
fish-curers and fish-curing firms. If we suppose that these
expenses absorb 1s. of this surplus, then the total profit amounts
only to £2319, 11s. It may be observed, however that other
sources of profit are open to these fish-curers. All of them have
shops, in which the aggregate credit sales to fishermen amounted
in the year 1871 (from settlement to settlement) to probably
£14,000. A considerable amount of cash transactions, and sales of
goods for butter and eggs, also take place at their counters; and
many of them deal in cattle and kelp, and are engaged in the Faroe
fishing. With all these sources of income, however, it is difficult
to believe that no larger direct profit per cent. is earned from so
complicated and hazardous a business as the ling fishing.
STOCK SOLD TO MERCHANTS
Next to fish, cattle sold form the largest and most common credit
in the account of the fisherman farmer, although this is not,
like fish, an indispensable item in the account. Cattle, ponies,
sheep, and pigs, are an important part of the Shetlander's means,
and they, like the rest of his saleable produce, are generally
purchased by the merchant, who buys all that leaves the country,
from a whale to an egg, and sells everything that the country
people want, from a boll of meal or a suit of clothes to a
darning-needle. The stock goes into the account, and is settled for
at the yearly settlement. There is a custom throughout the country
of holding public sales twice, sometimes four times in the year
'for the benefit of the tenant' as a witness puts it' but also for the
benefit of the landlords and merchants. The sales are managed by
the proprietor of the estate for which they are held, or by his
tacksman or factor, and the prices of all the animals sold are paid,
under the conditions of sale, into his hands. He has thus, just as in
purchasing the fish of his tenants, an opportunity of retaining what
is due to him for rent, and of making effectual his hypothec, or
rather of avoiding the necessity of enforcing it at all. No cases
have been alleged or proved in which advantage has been taken by
proprietors or merchants of the power given them by their
position, or by the indebtedness of tenants, for the purpose of
getting cattle at low prices; and, indeed, the publicity of these sales
to be a sufficient safeguard against such abuses. There is a
practice, formerly much more widely prevalent than it is now, of
marking the horns of animals with the initials of a creditor, which
is supposed to hypothecate the debtor's cattle effectually as against
all but the landlord's claim for rent. The practical effects appear
to have been formerly injurious; <e.g.>, a well-informed and
reliable witness says that, twenty years ago, when a merchant
bought a beast from one of his debtors, he could really fix the
price himself. [Page 21 rpt.] But the practice seems now to be so
rare, probably because its legal inefficacy is better understood,
that it need not be more particularly referred to.
[J. Laurenson, 9873; T. Gifford, 8133; A. Sandison, 10,079.]
There is evidence as to the sales of cattle on the Sumburgh,
Busta, Gossaburgh, and Ollaberry estates, and in the islands
of Unst and Yell. A man who is in debt to the landlord or
merchant-tacksman is expected to offer his cow or pony which is
for sale to him first. If the owner is dissatisfied with the price
offered, he has an opportunity of exposing it at the next half-yearly
or quarterly sale, where all the money passes through the hands of
the merchant or landlord, and is settled for at the end of the year,
the owner getting supplies from the shop if he requires them in the
meantime. Intimation is given to all the tenants of the sale; and a
man who is very deeply in debt is 'so far forced to bring his cattle
and sell them.'
[W. Irvine, 3772; R. Halcrow, 4673; P.M. Sandison, 5271; D.
Greig, 7228; Rev. J. Sutherland, 7600; T. Gifford, 8130; J.S.
Houston, 9686; J. Laurenson, 9873; G. Irvine, 13,241; J. Bruce,
jun., 13,329; R. Halcrow, 4684.]
An instance of a sale of wool to a merchant-tacksman by an
indebted tenant, at a lower price than might have been obtained
(according to the tenant's own statement), is given by Robert
Simpson:
'14,014. Was 111/2d. the current price for wool last autumn?-I
cannot say. That was what we got for it from Mr. Sutherland.'
'14,015. Did anybody else offer to buy it from you?-We did not
offer it to anybody else, because we thought he had a better right
to it, as he was paying the rent. There were several people asking
me for it, but I would not sell it to them.'
'14,016. How much did they offer you for the wool?-We never
came to any particular agreement about the price, because I would
not consent to sell it to them at all.'
'14,017. Did they not say anything about what they would give
you?-They spoke of 1s.; but I thought it better to sell it for 111/2d.
wholesale than to sell it to them for 1s., even although I had had
power to do it. Besides, I thought Mr. Robertson had the best right
to it.'
'14,018. Had Mr. Robertson told you that he expected to get your
wool?-I cannot say that he had.'
'14,019. Had Mr. Sutherland told you that?-If I could have paid
my debt he would not have asked it.'
'14,020. But did Mr. Sutherland tell you that he expected to get
your wool?-Sometimes he would ask me if I would give him the
wool, and that I would be better to give it to him than to sell it to
another.'
'14,021. Even at a halfpenny less?-Yes.'
This is probably a true enough picture of the transactions in regard
to cattle, which in bad times are still commonly resorted to for the
purpose of reducing large debts; but of which, in the late
prosperous years, little has been heard.
________________________________
THE EXTENT OF INDEBTEDNESS.
ADVANCES ARE MADE UPON AN ENGAGEMENT TO FISH.
The evidence taken in Shetland does not confirm the statement
made before this Commission in 1871, that 'the success of a
merchant in Shetland consists in being able to accumulate such an
amount of bad debts about him as will thirl the whole families in
his neighbourhood, and then he succeeds,' etc. So far as this
exaggerated statement has any truth, it may be said to mean that a
merchant often avails himself of the power given him by his past
advances, and by the hope of more, to secure both the fish and the
shop custom of the fishermen in his neighbourhood; while
fishermen so often need accommodation from the merchants, that
even those who for the time are clear do not think it prudent to
break off their connection with the merchant of the place from
whom they have hitherto got supplies, and by whom they expect
to be assisted in future bad years. But it does not mean, and
probably was not intended to mean, that merchants ever
deliberately sink a part of their capital in binding fishermen to
them by the uqestionable bond of hopeless debt. The truth, so far
as the highest class of merchants is concerned, seems to be fairly
stated by Mr. Irvine, who says, with regard to the system of paying
for fish by reference to the current price, that -
'Fishermen are quite safe with this arrangement. They know the
competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that
they are secure to get the highest possible price that the markets
can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the
fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the
following year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited
capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by
giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing
to themselves, and in the end come to grief.'
[John Walker, qu. 44,319; W. Irvine, 3623, 3856 sqq.; See L.
Williamson, 9092; T. Williamson, 9513.]
Undoubtedly, all the merchants are in the habit of making
advances to fishermen, chiefly in the form of goods, long before
the fishing season begins. In such cases there is, as a matter of
course, an obligation, sometimes in writing, to fish for the ensuing
year; and for the purpose of more easily getting such advances,
boats' crews are often formed as early as November and
December. Advances of boats and lines are invariably made upon
an engagement by the men who get them to deliver their fish.
[Page 22 rpt.] But many of the merchants examined as witnesses
agree in stating that indebtedness does not give them a hold over
their men; a statement which must, however, be limited to the case
of men who are hopelessly and irredeemably sunk in debt, who see
no means of escape from it, or rather no means of obtaining
supplies beyond the barest subsistence, but by removing to another
employment. A merchant is not always desirous to retain the
services of such men, because his chance of getting the old debts
repaid is small, while he cannot continue to employ them without
making further advances to enable them to go on with the fishing.
The statements made by merchants, that indebtedness is the great
drawback to their business, that indebted men are worst to deal
with, and that debt gives them no control over the men, must, I
think, be referred to such extreme cases only, and are not
applicable to the relations between merchants and men who, not
of being already hopelessly involved, require some advances in
money for rent, in the form of boat and lines, or in goods for
family use, after settlement and before the fishing season begins.
In all such cases the debt is incurred on the express or understood
condition that the man shall deliver his fish next season, and where
the advance consists of boat and lines, until it is altogether paid
off. To this extent it cannot be said that the debt gives the
merchant no hold over the men.
EFFECT OF DEBT IN BINDING THE MEN TO A MERCHANT
ENGAGEMENT BETWEEN MERCHANTS ON WEST COAST NOT TO
INTERFERE WITH EACH OTHER'S MEN
In districts where indebtedness is general, the bond formed by debt
is stronger. Merchants are there obliged to save themselves by
enforcing their claims against indebted men, whom others, in more
fortunate districts, would gladly get rid of. The merchants
have allowed their debts to become too numerous and too large,
either from a wrong system in the management of their business or
from a desire to 'thirl' the west side men to them. On the coast of
Northmaven and of Delting, a complete monopoly of the fish trade
is possessed, not by landholders or their tacksmen or factors, but
by three merchants (Messrs. Adie at Olnafirth Voe, Inkster at Brae,
and Anderson at Hillswick and Ollaberry), who lease curing
premises and a small portion of agricultural or pasture land from
the Busta trustees. Except at North Roe, where Messrs. Hay have
a station, there is no other merchant, along a coast-line extending
for many miles, to whom the tenant can sell his fish; and the
indebted man has not the liberty, which he seems to be able to
exercise in some other districts, of entering into an engagement
with another merchant, with whom he begins afresh, with clear
books, and the hope of keeping clear. I do not say that it is
morally wrong for the merchant to endeavour to secure payment
of a debt by requiring the debtor to agree to deliver to him the
produce of his fishing. But it cannot be a wholesome system
which has led the merchants into giving credits, which they can
only recover or secure by such means, and which induces them to
enter into a formal written engagement among themselves-'not
to tamper with or engage each other's fishermen, or allow our
boat-skippers or men to do so, or to make advances of rent to them
on their cattle, sheep, or ponies, or under any circumstances
whatever, unless they produce a certificate from any of us whom
they last fished for to the effect that he is clear of debt.' The
formal stipulation thus undertaken is only what has been very
frequently, not universally, acted upon throughout the western and
northern parts of Shetland; for men changing their employment
often find at settlement the debts due to their late master standing
against them in the books of the new master. Sometimes in
coming to a new employer the men's debts are, with their consent,
transferred to his books, or they get cash to discharge them.
[Wm. Adie, 8641; J. Anderson, 7775; M. Laurenson, 7354; A.
Harrison, 7746; T. Gifford, 8126; J. Wood, 8371; M. Henderson,
9940; A. Sandison, 10,497; T. Tulloch, 13,001; C. Ollason,
16,019; John Robertson, sen., 14,126; L. Williamson, 9074.]
The fishermen, on the other hand, for the most part admit that, so
long as they are indebted to a merchant, they must continue to fish
for him. Notwithstanding the statements of the merchants before
referred to (see above), the truth appears to be that most of them
do so continue from honesty as much as from fear of onsequences.
But, so far as the practical effects of the system are concerned, it is
perhaps of small importance whether supplies are given in the
belief that a man's honesty and his fear of legal execution will
make him continue to work them off by his labour, or in the belief
that his fear of legal consequences alone will have such an effect.
[G. Blance, 5554; C. Young, 5829; P. Blanch, 8575; C. Nicholson,
8694.]
Some merchants do not hesitate to admit that being indebted
compels, or at least induces, men to fish to the creditor; and,
indeed, it is so obviously and naturally an inducement to do so,
that it is impossible to avoid regarding indebtedness to the
merchant and the engagement to fish for him as more than a
merely accidental sequence of events. Experience, however, has
been teaching the more extensive merchants, and teaching them
perhaps more readily because they have less difficulty than others
in getting fishermen, that free or unindebted men are the most
successful fishermen; and that to act on the old Shetland maxim,
'If you once get a man into debt, you have a hold over him,' is to
fill their boats with inferior or at least half-hearted men, and their
books with bad debts. Thus the returns show that at two important
stations of a leading firm 244 men were employed in 1867, and
260 in 1871; and that of these, 72, or less than a third, owed sums
averaging only £2, 7s. 9d. at the settlement of 1867; while in 1871
only 9 owed sums averaging £l. In this and other cases, where
debt is less, the supplies of goods also bear a less proportion to the
money payments.
[L.F.U. Garriock, 12,549; T. Tulloch, 12,998; J. Harrison, 16451;
Rev. D. Miller, 5596; D. Greig, 7165.]
The extent of indebtedness thus differs in the different districts. It
is difficult to say whether this difference is caused by accidental
circumstances, or by the degrees of firmness with which the
various merchants act on the principle of restricting advances and
supplies when a man is getting behind. In bad years still more
after a succession of lean fishings and harvests restriction is of
course universal, and all the inhabitants of an island or a parish
may be getting weekly doles of meal at the merchant's shop.
At Grutness store, a day is fixed for the families who are 'on
allowance' to come for their meal. The proportion of men in a
state of indebtedness, and the amount of their debts, will be best
seen from the tables afterwards given. There are, however, many
general statements on this subject which I shall briefly refer to. In
considering these and the tables, it must be kept in view that, in
spite of some bad fishings and harvests in late years, the people are
generally in a more thriving condition than they were ten or fifteen
years ago. They have shared in the general prosperity of the
empire. The Rev. Mr. Miller, who says that the majority of the
fishermen at Mossbank are further in debt than they can hope to
pay in one year, believes that they were once worse, and that eight
or ten years ago hardly a fisherman was not in debt. The Rev. J.
Fraser of Sullom believes that a great number of the men are very
seldom clear, and that permanent indebtedness prevails to a much
larger extent than is good for the community. It must be admitted
that the sums due by the men are much smaller in Shetland than
the sums which, it is said, are often due by fishermen in Wick,
where the boats and nets advanced to the men are comparatively
expensive. In a few cases, debts of £40 have been contracted; but
that seems to be a rare and indeed is considered a hopeless
amount. The returns show that the average debt of chronic
debtors, so far as it can be ascertained, is very much less. Mr.
Anderson states it to be £12. 4s. in 1871 at Hillswick, having been
£14, 2s. in 1868. The witnesses are numerous-so numerous that
it is not necessary to note their names-who say that they have
been in debt at settlement for many years, or that the balance is
generally against them.
[T. Hutchison, 12,640; L. Robertson, 13,966; G. Irvine, 13,178;
Rev. D. Miller, 5989; Rev. J. Fraser, 8019; A. Harrison, 7446; J.
Anderson, 7770, 7835; A. Humphray, 12,822; J. Anderson, 7834.]
It is almost superfluous to point out the connection between the
system of accounts at the shops and the general indebtedness of
the peasantry; but it may be interesting to refer to the evidence of
Magnus Johnston, now a small shopkeeper, and formerly skipper
of a Faroe smack. He says:
'... I think it would be better for the people to have no accounts at
all.'
'7932. Do you mean that it would be better for their own sakes?-
Yes.
'7933. What would be the advantage to them?-For my own part,
if I had no money, but if I had credit, I might go to a shop and take
out more goods than perhaps I ought to do, without regard to
whether I would be able to pay them or not; whereas if a man did
not have that liberty, but went into a shop with only a few pence in
his pocket, he might make it spin out better, or more to his own
advantage.
'7934. Do you think he might get his meal cheaper by going to
another shop and paying for it in cash?-He might, or he might
take better care of his money, and manage to spin it out more.'
'7935. I suppose a merchant like yourself, if you were giving long
credit in that way, would require little more profit on your
goods?-Of course.'
'7936. But you can afford to sell cheaper because you are paid in
cash?-Yes; and I think it would be better for the public in general
if all payments were made in cash.'
[M. Johnson, 7931.]
Again, Mr. James Hay, formerly a merchant in Unst, but never
concerned in fishcuring, says:
'... My own conviction is, that if a ready-money system was once
in operation, and had a fair start, it would work better than the
present system.'
'10,528. But how are you prepared to give it a start?-I think that
if the men were paid their money monthly or fortnightly, that
would make them feel their independence better. Perhaps they
would husband their means better; and if there were those among
them who were careless about it, they would be taught a lesson
when the year was done, which would serve as a warning for them
in time to come. There might, however, be a difficulty in
beginning such a system. I can remember, and others present
will remember it too, two or three years of bad fishing, followed
by a year of blight, when the man who wrought most anxiously
and was honest-hearted could not meet the demands upon him.
At such times, if there was no qualification or mitigation of the
ready-money system, perhaps the men might get into difficulty.'
'10,529. But do you not think that with that system of fortnightly
payments a respectable fisherman and tenant would get credit just
as easily as he gets it now?-I believe he would.'
'10,530. From a greater number of persons, and on advantageous
terms?-I think he would.'
'10,531. Do you think there would be more places open to
respectable fishermen, at which they could get credit if it was
absolutely required in a bad season?-Yes.'
'10,532. I suppose in a bad season now no merchant would give
credit to the fishermen unless he was secure of their services for
next season?-I should suppose so.'
'10,533. Therefore the fishermen, as a rule, are shut up to the one
shop?-Yes, it comes to that.'
'10,534. Where fishermen were paid monthly or fortnightly,
and you knew a man to be a respectable man, would you, as a
merchant, have any hesitation in a bad season in giving him credit
for the support of his family?-I would have no hesitation in doing
that at all, and I have done it. ....'
'10,537. But do you think you would be more likely to obtain
repayment if there was an open system, and the whole country was
not monopolized by one or two great firms?-I think so; because if
the men were paid their money I think they would feel more
independent, and they would, so to say, eke out that money in the
most economical way, and thus be better off.'
'10,538. Probably, also, they would not be encouraged to run so
very much in debt with any merchant as they are at present?-I
think they would not. If the system were altered, and cash
payments introduced, I think the men would feel that they could
not ask credit to such a large extent as they do now, except in
cases of urgent necessity.'
[J. Hay, 10,527; See also J. Anderson, 6537, Dr. R. Cowie,
14,731.]
SETTLEMENTS AND PASS-BOOKS
The accounts between merchants and fishermen are settled in a
sufficiently loose manner. In many cases no pass-book is kept.
Sometimes it has been refused by the shopkeeper on account of
the trouble; sometimes it is the fisherman who could not be
'fashed' with it; sometimes it has been used for a time and given
up because of the customer's irregularity in bringing it. There is
undoubtedly much carelessness among the men with regard to
their accounts. They get what they want without much trouble.
The merchant or landlord helps them through bad times; and they
do not always minutely scrutinize the items charged against them.
They have a considerable, and probably not misplaced, confidence
in the honesty of the shopkeeper, so far as the quantities of their
'out-takes' are concerned. Some men indeed keep private notes of
their out-takes, which they compare with the shop ledger when
read over to them; but most trust to their memory to check their
accounts, and sometimes they are in a hurry to get home, and the
ceremony of reading over the account is omitted altogether. The
shopkeeper of course does not insist on doing so: in some places,
indeed, it is read over only if expressly asked. William Blance,
who fishes to the firm of T.M. Adie, is a specimen of the more
careless class of men:
'... There are somethings which you have got which are not put in
here?-Yes; I have gone to the shop when I did not have my book,
and I have got what I asked.'
'6086. What goods you got in that way when you did not have your
pass-book were all put down in Mr. Adie's book, and you
remembered about them when you came to settle?-Sometimes,
and sometimes not.'
'6087. If you did not remember them, did you trust to the honesty
of the shopkeepers?-Yes.'
'6088. Is your account read over to you at settling time?-Yes, if I
ask it to be done.'
'6089. Do you generally ask it?-Sometimes I do not, if I am in a
hurry to get home.'
'6090. Then you have perfect confidence in their honesty?-I
always think it would do more harm to them than to me if they
were not honest ....'
'6119. Do you get your meal at Voe?-Yes; most that we use
comes from there.'
'6120. I see it is not entered in your pass-book?-No; because the
meal has generally been sent in my absence, and I carry the book
about with me.'
'6121. How is it sent?-I have got some of it sent from Aberdeen
to Ollaberry direct.'
'6122. How much of it was there of it at a time?-I don't
remember ....'
'6127. What did you pay for that meal?-I cannot say.'
'6128. Is it settled for yet?-My account is squared up.'
'6130. Do you know what you paid for it before?-I don't
remember.'
'6131. When was your account squared up?-Fourteen days ago.'
'6132. It was not squared up in your pass-book then?- No, I had it
with me; but I wanted to get home soon, and I did not ask Mr.
Adie to look over the pass-book.'
'6133. You saw there was a balance against you then?-Yes.'
'6134. Did you not ask the price of the meal you had got?-No.'
'6135. Did you not hear it mentioned?-No.'
[J. Hay, 5370; L. Mail, 690; J. Leask, 1348; G. Colvin, 1340; W.
Irvine, 3668, 3778; W. Goudie, 4333; G. Goudie, 5402; P.M.
Sandison, 5169; G. Blance, 5574; P. Peterson, 6790; T. Robertson,
8619; G. Garriock, 8828; J.L. Pole, 9359; J. Laurenson, 9827; G.
Tulloch, 11,441; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,295; G. Irvine, 13,176,
13,267; W. Robertson, 13,791; R. Simpson, 13,990; Wm. Blance,
6085, 6119.]
The effect of the prevailing indebtedness plainly is to make the
men careless about prices:
'8698. What is the price of meal at Mossbank just now?-I cannot
say rightly.'
'8699. When did you know last? Have you made your settlement
this year?-Yes.'
'8700. Don't you know what you were charged for meal then?-
No.'
'8701. Do you ask the price of your meal as you buy it?-
Sometimes; but we must take it, whatever it is, because we have
no money to purchase it with elsewhere.'
'8702. Whose fault is that?-I don't know.'
'8703. Is it the merchant's fault?-I cannot say that it is.'
[C. Nicholson, 8698.]
THE RETURNS AND TABLES.
It was for the purpose of ascertaining the area and degree of debt,
as well as the degree to which truck prevails in the various districts
of Shetland, that a series of questions was sent, some time after the
inquiry had been opened, to most of the fish-merchants in
Shetland. The answers to these questions must have cost in the
larger establishments a good deal of time and trouble, which I am
bound to say was in most cases ungrudgingly bestowed. The
returns for the home fishing of 1867 (Table I.) are furnished by
merchants, who, according to the returns made to the Fishery
Board, produced more than four-fifths of the whole cure from that
fishery in that year. They show that out of 1913 fishermen in their
employment, 596 were indebted at the settlement of 1866, and
1832 at that of 1867, showing an average debt of £6, 11s. per man
in 1866, and £6, 13s. 8d. per man in 1867. In the same year the
total sum due to their fishermen by the eighteen curers making
returns was £19,362, 17s. 23/4d., and the total amount received by
the men from the curers was £21,456, 5s. 10d., which resulted,
according to the 10th column, in an increase of the debt by £1,631,
9s. 8d. The goods supplied in account by these curers to fishermen
in 1867 amounted to £10,860, 1s. 41/2d., rather more than a fourth
being charged to the crews for fishing expenses. Thus rather more
than one half of the total payments were made in goods.
The returns for 1871 (Table II.) were made by the same merchants,
with the exception of two who had not settled for that year, and
represent, according to the Fishery Board returns, nearly three
fourths of the total cure of the year. Out of 1615 fishermen, 644
were indebted in a total amount of £5,026, 19s. 13/4d., or an
average sum per man of £7, 13s. 33/4d. at the settlement of 1870;
and 614 were indebted in a total amount of £4,437, 1s. 21/2d., or an
average sum per man of £7, 4s. 61/4d. at the settlement of 1871.
The total amount due to their fishermen by these fifteen curers was
£20,759, 17s, 33/4d., and the total amount which the men got from
them was £20,579, 14s. 13/4d. The debt was reduced by £589, 18s.
111/4d. The goods supplied in account were £8,927, 2s. 10d.,
£2,574, 12s. 51/2d. being for fishing expenses. Thus, in this
prosperous year, considerably less than a half of the whole
earnings of the fishermen were received in goods. In 1867 about
three fourths, in 1871 about a half, of the cash paid was paid
before settlement.
Table III., for the Faroe fishing of 1867, applies to 509 men out of
699 who were engaged in that fishery in smacks belonging to
Shetland curers. The average debt of 219 debtors in 1866 was £4,
13s. 2d., and of 125 debtors in 1867, £4, 11s. 31/2d. The total
amount credited to the men was £6,764, 16s. 6d., and £6,723, 18s.
31/2d. was paid to them, of which £3,120, 14s. 9d., or less than half,
was paid in goods.
In 1871 (Table IV.) the returns apply to 605 men out of 816
engaged in Shetland smacks in that year. Of these, 53 debtors in
1870 owed on the average £3, 8s. 93/4d each, and in 1871, 240
debtors owed £4, 6s. 91/4d. each. They had got altogether £8,177,
2s. 1d., or about £770 more than was due to them; and of that sum,
£4, 146, 16s. 2d., or one half, was paid in truck.
Tables V. and VI. are Tables I. and II. in a different form, showing
more clearly the total debits and credits of the men. They also
show how accurately, upon the whole, the returns have been made
up. Certain discrepancies are shown by the figures in the column
entitled 'Amount indebted in excess of statement.' These may be
accounted for in various ways;-where the discrepancy is small,
by trivial errors in making the returns; where it is greater, by the
omission from the returns of transactions of a less usual character,
<e.g.> sales of cloth, which were not supposed to be within the
questions asked; and in the two cases where the difference is
largest, it may be conjectured that the large amount of debt may
have been reduced by drafts upon secret bank accounts or hoards,
on sons at sea, or on the earnings of the female members of the
debtors' families.
These Tables show that from one third to one half of the
fishermen are in debt to the curers each year at the time of
settlement, after their fishing has been credited to them. It is not
less true, as shown by the evidence, that during the rest of the year
nearly the whole of them are in debt to the curers, because the
goods and advances are debited to them as they get them, while
the credit for fish only comes at the end of the year.
TABLE I.--HOME FISHING--SEASON 1867. [Page 25]
1. No. of Fishermen employed
2. Amount of Goods debited to Fishermen
3. Cash advanced before Settlement
5. Gross Sum credited to Men for Fish
6. Gross Sum credited to them for Stock, etc.
7. Cash due to Fishermen at Settlement
8. Cash paid to them at Settlement.
9.1. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1866
9.2. Total Debts.
10.1 No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1866
10.2. Total Debts.
1 2 2 2 3 3 3
A 191 £1114 17 11 £625 1 0
*B 79 576 18 9 79 19 11
C 48 349 18 81/4 118 12 31/2
D 46 164 8 2 54 10 7
*E 244 765 10 1 280 13 6
*F, 180 1006 5 1 537 6 5
G, 23 95 0 0 35 18 0
*H, 95 248 2 1 153 11 8
J, 52 428 14 111/2 120 0 91/2
K, 28 124 15 10 15 0 0
*L, 30 76 16 51/4 0 0 0
*M, 122 881 0 31/2 190 5 6
*N 189 480 7 11 617 1 5
O, 58 288 12 9 172 3 4
*P, 209 788 16 21/2 946 9 1‡
†Q, 31 149 5 91/2 79 15 6
R, 70 354 5 1 128 18 9
†S, 122 160 0 8 221 2 5
†T, 96 563 8 7 153 6 7
1913 £8617 5 31/2 £4529 16 9
4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6
A £367 1 5 £2594 2 81/2 £738 6 101/2
*B 88 10 9 769 18 01/2 31 0 93/4
C 51 15 0 338 14 1/4 92 4 9
D 69 16 9 292 8 1 43 4 4
*e 465 10 0 2233 10 10 0 0 0
*F, 126 0 0 863 10 10 213 13 0
G, 0 0 0§ 208 10 2 0 0 0
*H, 39 8 10 866 0 2 304 14 0
J, 162 13 3 415 8 101/2 114 12 81/2
K, 19 0 0 286 6 0 0 0 0
*L, 45 0 0 164 1 8 0 0 0
*M, 292 3 6 878 17 1 366 11 61/2
*N 331 1 4 1763 12 61/2 100 13 10
O, 0 0 0 650 4 1 0 0 0
*P, 0 0 0§ 2063 18 01/2 284 0 01/2
†Q, 12 9 7 174 5 11 50 4 91/2
R, 55 14 6 520 7 0 32 7 10
†S, 56 13 5 1054 6 111/2 0 0 0
†T, 59 17 9 861 11 8 91 8 0
£2242 16 1 £16,999 14 81/4 £2463 2 61/4
7 7 7 8 8 8 9.1
A £1077 1 11 £1444 7 1 114
*B 163 5 03/4 248 7 31/4 31
C 32 4 21/2 30 10 21/2 17
D 85 3 31/2 85 3 31/2 11
*e 834 6 3 834 6 3 25
*F, 0 0 0 0 0 0±¶ 118
G, 106 17 0 106 17 0 6
*H, 342 7 1 342 7 1 27
J, 34 11 41/2 28 10 0 29
K, 133 9 91/2 159 17 10 6
*L, 87 5 23/4 87 5 23/4 6
*M, 265 18 01/2 294 17 11/2 67
*N 484 4 11/2 479 8 1 22
O, 216 14 81/2 216 14 81/2 22
*P, 693 0 5 693 0 5 15
†Q, 21 17 9 21 17 9 6
R, 125 3 8 125 3 8 32
†S, 616 5 61/2 616 5 61/2 7
†T, 256 9 2 251 9 2 35
£5576 4 71/2 £6066 7 81/2 596
9.2 9.2 9.2 10.1 10.2 10.2 10.2
A £1160 8 8 143 £1379 5 7
*B 101 9 1/4 50 294 8 93/4
C 27 17 41/2 35 150 17 101/2
D 29 1 0 18 67 7 41/2
*e 59 11 9 72 172 1 9
*F, 783 0 0 141 948 18 3
G, 45 19 4 9 87 19 7
*H, 159 2 2 21 137 11 11
J, 220 11 7 38 401 12 31/2
K, 13 0 41/2 8 26 8 01/2
*L, 25 7 51/4 7 26 14 63/4
*M, 538 3 31/2 76 737 0 7
*N 74 18 0 27 122 15 81/2
O, 195 11 11 19 197 16 7
*P, 70 7 8 41 150 16 31/2
†Q, 9 16 4 16 48 14 31/2
R, 101 17 5 50 213 4 7
†S, 20 16 5 9 24 10 2
†T, 292 2 7 52 372 7 9
£3929 2 4 832 £5560 12 0
*See Note (*) on table II., Home Fishing, 1871.
† This includes the Herring fishing.
‡ Includes $540, 9s. of Rents paid.
§ Included in No. 2.
± Although a few would have cash to get, yet the supplies to the
whole exceeded their earnings by about £536, 7s. 8d.
TABLE II.--HOME FISHING--SEASON 1871. [Page 26]
1. No. of Fishermen employed
2. Amount of Goods debited to Fishermen.
3. Cash advanced before Settlement.
4. Fishing Expenses charged to the Men.
5. Gross Sum credited to them for Fish.
6. Gross Sum credited to them for Stock, etc.
7. Cash due to them at Settlement.
8. Cash paid to them at Settlement
9.1 No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1870
9.2 Total Debts
10.1. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1871
10.2. Total Debts
1 2 2 2 3 3 3
A 182 £911 19 5 £809 16 8
*B 79 406 8 1/4 137 15 41/2
*C 46 308 16 1 103 19 61/2
D 100 411 15 8 249 18 0
*E 260 634 0 6 251 0 4
*F, 144 735 2 2 640 3 1
G, 23 60 0 0 40 17 0
*H, 103 260 12 4 182 16 1
J, 60 279 11 61/2 110 17 101/2
K, 12 65 11 111/2 23 0 0
Q 142 479 17 4 371 11 5
*M, 147 1136 17 61/2 276 8 0
O, 36 108 6 5 55 0 6
*N 185 345 6 91/2 560 11 01/2
S 66 107 14 8 110 14 11/2
*L 30 100 9 11
1615 £6352 10 41/4 £3924 9 01/2
*†U, 150 1125 3 1 £658 5 21/2
*†T, 126 1042 10 11 356 2 6
*†P, 281 788 1 21/2 1048 19 111/2
2202 £9308 5 63/4 £5987 16 81/2
4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6
A £274 10 1 £3101 14 3 £859 6 2
*B 73 18 0 1090 6 1 14 10 91/2
*C 49 10 6 578 0 21/2 115 2 83/4
D 178 9 21/2 999 3 9 33 3 61/2
*E 540 10 11 3436 16 7
*F, 99 0 0 1330 1 7 335 12 0
G, ‡ 310 4 0
*H, 163 18 9 1151 11 4 197 3 11
J, 161 14 111/2 623 4 8 60 8 6
K, 6 0 0 102 19 6
Q 123 8 5 1124 10 5 35 11 6
*M, 459 12 31/2 1800 7 21/2 385 19 11/2
O, 337 15 3
*N 324 17 41/2 1780 3 4 79 9 11
S 73 1 111/2 625 6 3
*L 46 0 0 251 4 81/2
£2574 12 51/2 £18,643 9 11/2 £2116 8 21/4
*†U, £50 4 8 £1651 11 11/2 £417 16 6
*†T, 67 4 0 1880 10 11 183 6 5
*†P, 2729 8 71/2 412 1 21/2
£2692 1 11/2 £24,904 19 91/2 £3129 12 33/4
7 7 7 8 8 8 9.1
A £1555 13 6 £1842 8 4 105
*B 463 1 11/2 519 16 61/2 27
*C 160 9 31/2 176 0 8 30
D 252 16 6 252 16 6 34
*E 1983 8 2 1983 8 2 17
*F, 235 8 4 235 8 4 136
G, 174 8 8 174 8 8 10
*H, 376 14 8 376 14 8 25
J, 90 5 6 74 5 21/2 44
K, 15 16 11/2 5
Q 299 9 10 299 9 10 46
*M, 890 7 51/2 501 16 41/2 82
O, 219 13 7 219 13 7 13
*N 586 13 111/2 571 9 111/2 31
S 333 15 41/2 333 15 41/2 32
*L 150 14 91/4 150 14 91/4 7
£7773 0 83/4 £7728 3 11/4 644
*†U, £276 6 4 £245 6 4
*†T, 710 16 8 874 16 6 82
*†P, 1305 10 71/2 1305 10 71/2 48
£10,065 14 41/4 £10,153 16 63/4 774
9.2 9.2 9.2 10.1 10.2 10.2 10.2
A £961 16 2 133 £839 10 0
*B 120 1 23/4 35 164 15 9
*C 141 19 01/4 22 94 16 93/4
D 92 12 101/2 48 153 4 111/2
*E 36 17 2 9 9 0 6
*F, 1433 12 11 99 1215 4 4
G, 56 13 0 5 23 10 0
*H, 244 0 1 25 232 18 8
J, 524 3 101/2 37 452 9 11
K, 18 1 7 6 19 10 2
Q 146 4 11 68 260 10 0
*M, 858 7 51/2 65 657 17 21/2
O, 163 15 10 11 140 6 0
*N 125 9 3 23 88 3 2
S 52 11 101/2 21 48 6 11/2
*L 50 11 103/4 7 36 17 71/4
£5026 19 13/4 614 £4437 1 21/2
*†U, £561 16 4 606 18 11/2
*†T, 433 18 9 68 710 5 10
*†P, 274 0 10 44 275 2 91/2
£6296 15 03/4 726 £6037 7 111/2
*In the Returns made by those marked (*), rents payable by men to
them are included in the cash payments, except those of H.
† The Returns by U, T., and P are for the year 1870.
‡ This in included in No. 2.
NOTES BY P. TO HIS ANSWERS 1870.
<Question No. 1.>--281. This includes 84 men engaged by me
for the herring fishing, which on only begins on the 12th August.
These men fish to other curers at the ling-fishing during the summer,
and only] come to me for the herring fishing. They get no goods
from me, nor cash advances, but receive the gross value of their fish
in one payment when the fishing is over.
<Question No. 2>.--£788, 1s. 21/2d. This represents the gross amount
of the store accounts charged, and includes (the answer to question No.
4) all fishing expenses, and in some cases may included small advances
in cash.
<Question No. 3>.--£1048, 19s. 111/2d. This answer includes rent paid
for the men, and should be--
Cash advanced ....... £481 11 7
Rents paid, ............. 567 8 41/2
£1048 19 111/2
<Question No. 5.>--£2729, 8s. 71/2d. This sum includes £432 due for
herrings to the 84 men mentioned in note on answer No. 1.
<Question No. 6.>--£412, 1s. 21/2d. This includes the sum of £21, 5s.
61/2d. received from fishermen at settlement.
<Question No. 7.>--All sums <due> to the fishermen were <paid> at
settlement.
<Question No. 8>.--This includes £432 paid to the 84 men mentioned
in note on answer No. 1 for herrings.
TABLE III.--FAROE FISHING--SEASON 1867. [Page 27]
1. No. of Fishermen employed
2. Amount of Goods debited to Fishermen.
3. Cash advanced before Settlement.
4. Fishing Expenses charged to the Men.
5. Gross Sum credited to Men for Fish.
6. Gross Sum credited to them for Stock, etc.
7. Cash due to Fishermen at Settlement.
8. Cash paid to them at Settlement.
9.1. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1866.
9.2. Total Debts
10.1. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1867.
10.2. Total Debts
1 2 2 2 3 3 3
A, 47 £234 15 5.5 £141 6 0
B, 71 323 3 6.5 221 9 61/2
C, 41 221 11 0 196 18 11
D, 91 839 15 9.5 451 13 9
E, 11 20 10 9.5 13 15 0
F, 148 481 18 1.5 432 6 12
G, 31 122 0 3 80 8 2
H, 69 362 3 4 229 19 2
509 £2605 18 31/2 £1767 17 6
†J 28 163 10 11 51 7 2
4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6
A, £46 17 9 £656 5 9 £0 0 0
B, 32 16 6.5 901 14 91/2 0 0 0
C, 42 5 7 457 16 0 98 11 8
D, 0 0 0* 1696 1 1 0 0 0
E, 16 12 7 98 5 91/2 2 18 9
F, 331 14 6 1667 8 4 44 12 7
G, 14 13 6 312 5 11 0 0 0
H, 29 16 0 828 15 10 0 0 0
£514 16 51/2 £6618 13 6 £146 3 0
†J £14 14 11 171 0 0 42 6 9
7 7 7 8 8 8 9.1
A, £183 15 01/2 £183 15 01/2 20
B, 294 11 11/2 294 11 11/2 31
C, 88 7 6 89 7 6 17
D, 478 4 11 478 4 11 55
E, 50 19 21/2 50 19 21/2 1
F, 443 11 9 373 9 01/2 34
G, 99 8 31/2 99 8 31/2 3
H, 265 10 11 265 10 11 58
£1904 8 9 £1835 6 01/2 219
†J 0 19 1 0 19 1 25
9.2 9.2 9.2 10.1 10.2 10.2 10.2
A, £81 5 81/2 8 £31 14 2
B, 164 1 101/2 23 134 7 10
C, 60 12 11 15 54 8 3
D, 307 0 4 22 141 16 01/2
E, 0 16 2 1 1 9 6
F, 164 0 2 26 133 13 91/2
G, 10 7 7 9 14 6 10
H, 232 1 4 21 58 13 7
£1020 6 1 125 £570 10 0
†J 86 5 5 28 137 7 41/2
*Under this head no fishing expenses were charged against the
men's accounts. The only fishing expenses were bait, and curing
of fish, which were deducted from the gross amount before division,
as agreed upon.
† This Return in for 1866. In 1866 there was a remarkably 'lean'
Fishing.
TABLE IV.--FAROE FISHING--SEASON 1871. [Page 28]
1. No. of Fishermen employed
2. Amount of Goods debited to Fishermen.
3. Cash advanced before Settlement.
4. Fishing Expenses charged to the Men.
5. Gross Sum credited to Men for Fish.
6. Gross Sum credited to them for Stock, etc.
7. Cash paid to them at Settlement.
8. Cash paid to them at Settlement.
9.1. Total Debts
9.2. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1870.
10.1. Total Debts
10.2. No. of Fishermen indebted at Settlement of 1871.
1 2 2 2 3 3 3
F, 139 £563 5 6 £618 6 11
A, 51 205 0 81/2 123 12 6
C, 57 358 2 2 284 11 2
D, 85 774 13 2 467 1 9
H, 125 775 14 11 216 5 1
J, 13 85 10 3 24 19 6
E, 23 104 18 91/2 94 14 10
G, 47 266 18 1 111 17 10
†B, 65 249 19 3 203 18 21/2
605 £3384 2 10 £2145 7 91/2
4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 6
F, £556 0 4 £2093 2 9 £32 6 0
A, 26 4 31/2 331 5 1 0 0 0
C, 51 3 6 150 4 6 647 0 2
D, 0 0 0 1810 12 7 0 0 0
H, 45 19 1 942 0 0 0 0 0
J, 9 12 0 39 17 1 4 9 71/2
E, 14 2 1 204 6 31/4 33 0 3
G, 28 18 10 545 10 3 0 0 0
†B, 30 13 21/2 572 6 4 ... ... ...
£762 13 4 £6689 4 101/4 £716 16 1/2
7 7 7 8 8 8 9.1
F, £473 16 2 £375 12 3 21
A, 69 19 6 69 19 6 2
C, 168 14 21/2 172 10 61/2 13
D, 589 9 10 589 9 10 7
H, 253 1 2 253 1 2 4
J, 0 0 0 0 0 0 3
E, 49 1 10 48 17 111/2 2
G, 166 19 41/2 165 5 9 0
†B, 210 1 11/2 210 1 11/2 1
£1981 3 21/2 £1984 18 11/2 53
9.2 9.2 9.2 10.1 10.2 10.2 10.2
F, £83 1 11 31 £174 19 9*
A, 0 11 6 26 94 3 51/2
C, 59 2 7 28 128 5 3
D, 19 2 91/2 19 35 0 10
H, 10 4 0 65 349 0 3
J, 1 19 0 13 72 0 61/2
E, 5 5 111/2 10 33 11 53/4
G, 0 0 0 14 29 3 111/2
†B, 2 18 6 34 125 3 111/2
£182 6 3 240 £1041 9 53/4
* Of this sum, £174, 19s, 9d., there was due by 13 men, the crew
of one unsuccessful vessel, £105, 14s. 4d. The fishery of 1871 was
comparatively a failure, and left many of the men in debt; while the
previous year was very good, and the men were nearly all clear.
† Excluding the crew of one smack, the crew of which had not been
settled with.
TABLE V.--HOME FISHING--SEASON 1867. [Page 29]
No. of Fishermen in Debt
at Settlement of 1866, and Amount of Debts.
1.1. No.
1.2. Amount.
2. Fishing Expenses Charged to the Men.
3. Goods charged to the Men.
CASH.
4.1. Advanced to the Men before Settlement
4.2. Paid to them at Settlement.
5. Total Debits to Fishermen.
Gross Sums credited to the Men.
6.1. For Fish.
6.2. For Stock.
7. Total Credits to Fishermen.
No. of Fishermen in Debt at Settlement of 1867, and Amount Indebted.
8.1. No.
8.2. Amount.
8.3. Amount as per Statement.
8.4. Amount indebted in excess of Statement
9. No. of men engaged during the Year.
1.1 1.2 1.2 1.2 2 2 2
A, 114 £1160 8 8 £367 1 5
B, 31 101 9 01/4 88 10 9
C, 17 27 17 4.5 51 15 0
D, 11 29 1 0 69 16 9
E, 25 59 11 9 465 10 0
F, 118 783 0 0 126 0 0
G, 6 45 19 4
H, 27 159 2 2 39 8 10
I, 29 £220 11 7 162 13 3
K, 6 £13 0 41/2 19 0 0
L, 6 25 7 51/4 45 0 0
M, 67 538 3 31/2 292 3 6
N, 22 74 18 0 331 1 4
O, 22 195 11 11
P, 15 70 7 8
Q, 6 9 16 4 12 9 7
R, 32 101 17 5 55 14 6
S, 7 20 16 5 56 13 5
T, 35 292 2 7 59 17 9
596 £3939 2 4 £2242 16 1
3 3 3 4.1 4.1 4.1 4.2 4.2 4.2
A, £1114 17 11 625 1 0 1444 7 1
B, 576 18 9 79 19 11 248 7 31/4
C, 339 18 81/4 118 12 31/2 30 10 21/2
D, 164 8 2 54 10 7 85 3 31/2
E, 765 10 1 280 13 6 834 6 3
F, 1006 5 1 537 6 5
G, 95 0 0 35 18 8 106 17 0
H, 248 2 1 153 11 8 342 7 1
I, 428 14 111/2 120 0 91/2 28 10 0
K, 124 15 10 15 0 0 159 17 10
L, 76 16 51/4 87 5 23/4
M, 881 0 31/2 190 5 6 294 17 11/2
N, 480 7 11 617 1 5 479 8 1
O, 288 12 9 172 3 4 216 14 81/2
P, 788 16 21/2 946 9 1 693 0 5
Q, 149 5 91/2 79 15 6 21 17 9
R, 354 5 1 128 18 9 125 3 8
S, 160 0 8 221 2 5 616 5 61/2
T, 563 8 7 153 6 7 351 9 2
£8617 5 31/2 £4529 16 9 £6066 7 81/2
5 5 5 6.1 6.1 6.1 6.2 6.2 6.2
A, £4711 16 1 £2594 2 81/2 £738 6 101/2
B, 1095 5 81/2 769 18 01/2 31 0 93/4
C, 578 13 63/4 338 14 01/4 92 4 9
D, 402 19 91/2 292 8 1 43 4 4
E, 2405 11 7 2233 10 10
F, 2452 11 6 863 10 10 213 13 0
G, 283 14 4 208 10 2
H, 942 11 10 866 0 2 304 14 0
I, 960 10 7 415 8 101/2 114 12 81/2
K, 331 14 01/2 286 6 0
L, 234 9 11/4 164 1 8
M, 2196 9 81/2 878 17 1 366 11 61/2
N, 1982 16 9 1763 12 61/2 100 13 10
O, 873 2 81/2 650 4 1
P, 2498 13 41/2 2063 18 01/2 284 0 01/2
Q, 273 4 111/2 174 5 11 50 4 91/2
R, 765 19 5 520 7 0 32 7 10
S, 1074 18 51/2 1054 6 111/2
T, 1320 4 8 861 11 8 91 8 0
£25385 8 2 £16999 14 81/4 £2463 2 61/4
7 7 7 8.1 8.2 8.2 8.2
A, £3332 9 7 143 £1379 6 6
B, 800 18 101/4 50 294 6 101/4
C, 430 18 91/4 35 147 14 91/2
D, 335 12 5 18 67 7 41/2
E, 2233 10 10 72 172 0 0
F, 1077 3 10 141 1375 7 8
G, 208 10 2 9 75 4 2
H, 1170 14 2 21 <228 2 4>
I, 530 1 7 38 430 9 0
K, 286 6 0 8 45 8 01/2
L, 164 1 8 7 70 7 51/4
M, 1245 8 71/2 76 951 1 1
N, 1864 6 41/2 27 118 10 41/2
O, 650 4 1 19 222 18 71/2
P, 2347 18 1 41 150 15 31/2
Q, 224 10 81/2 16 48 14 3
R, 552 14 10 50 213 4 7
S, 1054 6 111/2 9 20 11 6
T, 952 19 8 52 367 5 0
£19462 18 21/2 832 £5922 10 111/2
8.3 8.3 8.3 8.4 8.4 8.4 9
A, £1379 5 7 £0 0 11 191
B, 294 8 93/4 <0 1 111/2> 79
C, 150 17 101/2 <3 3 1> 48
D, 67 7 41/2 46
E, 172 1 9 <0 1 0> 244
F, 948 18 3 426 9 5 180
G, 87 19 7 <12 15 5> 23
H, 137 11 11 <365 14 3> 95
I, 401 12 31/2 28 16 81/2 52
K, 26 8 01/2 19 0 0 28
L, 26 14 63/4 43 12 101/2 30
M, 737 0 7 214 0 6 122
N, 122 15 81/2 <4 5 4> 189
O, 197 16 7 25 2 01/2 58
P, 150 16 31/2 <0 1 0> 209
Q, 48 14 31/2 <0 0 01/2> 31
R, 213 4 7 70
S, 24 10 2 <3 18 8> 122
T, 372 7 9 <5 2 9> 96
£5560 12 0 361 18 111/2 1913
*Where the amount is less than the Statement, the figures are noted
in italics, and effect is given to these sums in the addition.
TABLE VI.--HOME FISHING--SEASON 1871. [Page 30]
No. of Fishermen in Debt at Settlement of 1870, and Amount of
Debts.
1.1. No.
1.2. Amount.
2. Fishing Expenses Charged to the Men.
3. Goods charged to the Men.
CASH.
4.1. Advanced to the Men before Settlement.
4.2. Paid to them at Settlement.
5. Total Debits to Fishermen.
Gross Sums credited to the Men.
6.1. For Fish.
6.2. For Stock.
7. Total Credits to Fishermen.
No. of Fishermen in Debt at Settlement of 1871, and Amount
Indebted.
8.1. No.
8.2. Amount to Balance.
8.3. Amount as per Statement.
8.4. Amount indebted in excess of Statement
9. No. of men engaged during the Year.
1.1 1.2 1.2 1.2 2 2 2
A, 105 £961 16 2 £274 10 1
B, 27 120 1 23/4 73 18 0
C, 30 141 19 01/4 49 10 6
D, 34 92 12 101/2 178 9 21/2
E, 17 36 17 2 540 10 11
F, 136 1433 12 11 99 0 0
G, 10 56 13 0
H, 25 244 0 1 163 18 9
I, 44 524 3 101/2 161 14 12
K, 5 18 1 7 6 0 0
R, 46 146 4 11 123 8 5
M, 82 858 7 51/2 459 12 31/2
O, 13 163 15 10
N, 31 125 9 3 324 17 41/2
S, 32 52 11 101/2 73 1 12
L, 7 50 11 103/4 46 0 0
644 £5026 19 13/4 £2574 12 51/2
U, £561 16 4 £50 4 8
T, 82 433 18 9 67 4 0
P, 48 274 0 10
774 £6296 15 03/4 £2692 1 11/2
3 3 3 4.1 4.1 4.1 4.2 4.2 4.2
A, £911 19 5 £809 16 8 £1842 8 4
B, 406 8 01/4 137 15 41/2 519 16 61/2
C, 308 16 1 103 19 61/2 176 0 8
D, 411 15 8 249 18 0 252 16 6
E, 634 0 6 251 0 4 1983 8 2
F, 735 2 2 640 3 1 235 8 4
G, 60 0 0 40 17 0 174 8 8
H, 260 12 4 182 16 1 376 14 8
I, 279 11 61/2 110 17 101/2 74 5 21/2
K, 65 11 111/2 23 0 0 15 16 11/2
R, 479 17 4 371 11 5 299 9 10
M, 1136 17 61/2 276 8 0 501 16 41/2
O, 108 6 5 55 0 6 219 13 7
N, 345 6 91/2 560 11 01/2 571 9 111/2
S, 107 14 8 110 14 11/2 333 15 41/2
L, 100 9 11 150 14 91/4
£6352 10 41/4 £3924 9 01/2 £7728 3 11/4
U, £1125 3 1 £658 5 21/2 £245 6 4
T, 1042 10 11 356 2 6 874 16 6
P, 788 1 21/2 1048 19 111/2 1305 10 71/2
£9308 5 63/4 £5987 16 81/2 £10153 16 63/4
5 5 5 6.1 6.1 6.1 6.2 6.2 6.2
A, £4800 10 8 £3101 14 3 £859 6 2
B, 1257 19 2 £1090 6 1 14 10 91/2
C, £780 5 93/4 578 0 21/2 115 2 83/4
D, 1185 12 3 999 3 9 33 3 61/2
E, 3445 17 1 3436 16 7
F, 3143 6 6 1330 1 7 335 12 0
G, 331 18 8 310 4 0
H, 1228 1 11 1151 11 4 197 3 11
I, 1150 13 51/2 623 4 8 60 8 6
K, 128 9 8 102 19 6
R, 1420 11 11 1124 10 5 35 11 6
M, 3233 1 8 1800 7 21/2 385 19 11/2
O, 546 16 4 337 15 3
N, 1927 14 5 1780 3 4 79 9 11
S, 677 18 0 625 6 3
L, 347 16 7 251 4 81/2
£25606 14 13/4 £18643 9 11/2 £2116 8 21/4
U, £2640 15 71/2 £1651 11 11/2 £417 16 6
T, 2774 12 8 1880 10 11 183 6 5
P, 3416 12 71/2 2729 8 71/2 412 1 21/2
£34438 15 01/4 £24904 19 91/2 £3129 12 33/4
7 7 7 8.1 8.2 8.2 8.2
A, £3961 0 5 133 £839 10 3
B, 1104 16 101/2 £35 153 2 £4
C, 693 2 111/4 22 87 2 101/2
D, 1032 7 31/2 48 153 4 111/2
E, 3436 16 7 9 9 0 6
F, 1665 13 7 99 1477 12 11
G, 310 4 0 5 21 14 8
H, 1348 15 3 25 <120 13 4>
I, 683 13 2 37 467 0 31/2
K, 102 19 6 6 25 10 2
R, 1160 1 11 68 260 10 0
M, 2186 6 4 65 1046 15 4
O, 337 15 3 11 209 1 1
N, 1859 13 3 23 68 1 2
S, 625 6 3 21 52 11 9
L, 251 4 81/2 17 96 11 101/2
£20759 17 33/4 624 £4846 16 91/2
U, £2069 7 71/2 £571 8 0
T, 2063 17 4 68 710 15 4
P, 3141 9 10 44 275 2 91/2
£28034 12 11/4 736 £6404 2 11
8.3 8.3 8.3 8.4 8.4 8.4 9
A, £839 10 0 £0 0 3 217
B, 164 15 £9 <11 13 51/2> 79
C, 94 16 93/4 <7 13 111/4> 46
D, 153 4 111/2 100
E, 9 0 6 260
F, 1215 4 4 262 8 7 144
G, 23 10 0 <1 15 4> 23
H, 232 18 8 <353 12 0> 103
I, 452 9 11 14 10 41/2 60
K, 19 10 2 6 0 0 12
R, 260 10 0 142
M, 657 17 21/2 388 18 11/2 147
O, 140 6 0 68 15 1 36
N, 88 3 2 <20 2 0> 185
S, 48 6 11/2 4 5 71/2 66
L, 36 17 71/4 59 14 31/4 30
£4437 1 21/2 £409 15 £7 1650
U, £606 18 11/2 <35 10 11/2> 150
T, 710 5 10 0 9 6 126
P, 275 2 91/2 281
£6029 7 111/2 £374 14 111/2 2207
*Where the amount is less than the Statement, the figures are noted
in italics, and effect is given to these sums in the addition.
_______________________________
[Page 31] PRICES AT THE SHOPS OF FISH-CURERS.
Of an inquiry regarding the existence and effects of Truck, the
quality and prices of the goods furnished by the employer in lieu of
money forms a necessary part. In Lerwick, as might be expected,
competition, and the greater facility of communication with other
places, have kept the prices of the necessaries of life at a moderate
figure.
No complaints were made as to prices there, and it was thought
unnecessary to make a minute investigation. Evidence was taken,
however, for the purpose of comparing the prices of meal and
flour as sold in Lerwick with those charged at the fish-curers'
shops in the country districts. It is a fact of some significance, that
few persons above the condition of peasants purchase supplies for
family use from the shops in Shetland. Provisions and groceries,
as well as clothing are to a large extent imported by private
individuals from Aberdeen, Leith, and Edinburgh. The Rev. Mr.
Sutherland says that he gets his goods twice a year from the south,
and does not deal with any local shop, unless he happens to be out
of a particular article; and that, so far as he knows, it is common
for clergymen and others in the same position to get their supplies
from the south:
'7570. Why is that done?-I cannot afford to buy articles here;
they are too dear for me. My stipend would not afford to pay for
them.'
'7571. Do you know if the same reason operates in the case of
your fellow clergymen?-I don't know; but they have often
spoken about it. In the first place, I hold the goods to be, as might
be expected, inferior in quality to the goods I would like. I don't
blame the merchants for not having goods of better quality,
because their customers perhaps would not be in the way of buying
them; but I could not afford to buy from the merchants here, in
consequence of the tremendous percentage which they charge
upon their goods.'
[C. Robertson, 15,017; J. Robertson, sen., 14,072.]
Statements to the same effect are made by the Rev. D. Miller,
United Presbyterian minister at Mossbank, and the Rev. W. Smith,
minister of Unst. [6001; 10,714.]
Many witnesses complained that prices are higher at the 'shops'
than at Lerwick. Thus the leading witness from Dunrossness said
that oatmeal at Mr. Bruce's shop at Grutness was 4s. a boll (140
lbs.), or 8s. per sack or quarter, above its price in Lerwick.
[L. Mail, 568.]
GRUTNESS
The prices charged here are much too high; and this arises not
merely from the want of the check of competition, as regards the
men thirled to the shop by want of money to deal elsewhere, but
also from the very peculiar way in which the prices are fixed. This
may possibly be explained by the fact that neither Mr. Bruce nor
his shopkeeper have been properly trained to the business of the
shop, which has been taken up as an appendage of the fish trade.
Gilbert Irvine, the shopkeeper, was unable to give any very clear
explanation of the way in which the price of meal at Grutness is
fixed, and why the men never knew the price of it until the
settlement. [G. Irvine, 13,173.] But Mr. Bruce says:
'13,306. In what way do you fix the average price of meal for the
year?--We take what other people are charging in Lerwick and
elsewhere; and after considering the quality of the meal, and our
extra expense upon it, we charge what we think it can reasonably
bring, without any regard to the cost price of it.'
'13,307. Do you not take the cost price into consideration at all?-
Of course it is an element, but not the principal element, in fixing
the price.'
This loose method of proceeding may account for the complaints
of the price made by all the men, who were quite satisfied with the
quality. No man deals at the store at Grutness who can possibly
get money to buy his goods elsewhere, and Mr. Bruce himself
speaks of the shop as a necessity for the fishing, and not a source
of profit in itself. The price of meal was ascertained by William
Goudie to be at least 3s. per boll above, the price elsewhere.
There is also at Grutness an ambiguity about weight -pecks being
sold by 'lispund weight,' <i.e.> 4 to 32 lbs., instead of boll weight,
<i.e.> 4 to 35 lbs. = quarter boll. The price of oatmeal for the
whole of 1870 was 22s. at Grutness, which was the highest price it
attained in Lerwick for a very short time after the breaking out of
the French war. During by far the greater part of the year, it varied
at Lerwick from 17s. 3d. to 19s. It is instructive to compare the price
at Grutness with a note of the prices charged by Mr. Gavin
Henderson at Scousbrough, three miles distant, where no
fishermen are bound to the shopkeeper or engaged by him. This
note (p. 319 of Evidence) brings out an average of 18s. 3d. per boll
on all Mr. Henderson's sales for that year. Comparison of Mr.
Henderson's note of prices for that year with Mr. Charles
Robertson's (p. 378), shows that a merchant carrying on business
twenty miles from Lerwick can sell his meal as cheaply as
merchants there are in the practice of doing. Mr. Bruce's own
invoices show that his meal for the season 1870 was purchased at
an average price of 16s. 8d. per boll, and that out of the whole
supply of 171 bolls, all but 25 bolls was bought at 16s. 3d. and
under. The freight from Aberdeen to Grutness he states to be 1s.
5d. per boll. Thus 16s. 8d. +1s. 5d. = 18s. 1d., leaving 3s. 11d. for
profit and risk, or about 22 per cent. But Mr. Bruce explains that,
as his shop is not conducted on purely commercial principles, but
as an auxiliary to the fishing, this is all required to cover expenses
of management. It is nevertheless very expensive for the retail
purchasers. 2 lb. lines at Grutness are sold for 2s. 2d.; at Mr.
Henderson's, for 2s. Tea, of which Shetlanders consume a large
quantity, and of which they are said to be good judges, is said
by one witness to be from 4d. to 8d. dearer per lb. at Boddam,
where there is a shop of Mr. Bruce's, than at Lerwick or Gavin
Henderson's, a shop in the neighbourhood; cotton to be 2d. a yard
dearer, and tobacco 1d. or 2d. a quarter lb. The evidence of Mr.
Charles Fleming shows that some cotton stuffs, pieces of which
were obtained at the shop at Grutness, and which were said by Mr.
Irvine to be sold at 41/2d., 8d., and 1s. a yard respectively, were
worth in retail very much less than these prices.
[J. Bruce, jun., H. Mailand, 4858; W. Goudie, 4317; G. Irvine, 13,
259; J. Brown, 5300; H. Gilbertson, 4551; C. Robertson, 15,040; J.
Robertson, sen., 14,587; T. Aitken, 4833; G. Irvine, 13,224; J.
Bruce, jun., 13, 319; G. Irvine, 13,291; R. Henderson, 12,877; R.
Halcrow, 4663; C. Fleming, 17,042; G. Irvine, 13,200.]
QUENDALE
The general import of the evidence as to Mr. Grierson's shop
at Quendale is that the prices are not so high as at Grutness, but
higher (2s. or 3s per boll for meal than those at Gavin Henderson's
at Scousborough and even than those at Messrs. Hay & Co.'s at
Dunrossness. Here the prices of fishing lines are-2 lb., 2s. 3d.;
21/2 lb., 2s. 6d; 13/4 lb., 2s.; 11/2 lb., 1s. 9d. At Gavin Henderson's, 2
lb., 2s.; 21/4lb., 2s. 3d.
[J. Flawes, 4978; C. Eunson, 5067; G. Goudie, 13,392; R.
Henderson, 12,877.]
MOSSBANK
The difference between prices at Mossbank and Lerwick has been
not less than 4s. or 4s. 6d. per boll, although Mr. Pole (5962)
says that in general the difference is from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per boll.
The difference between Mossbank prices for meal and the shop of
Magnus Johnston at Tofts, a mile distant, is said by Johnston to be
a penny a peck, or 1s. 5d. per boll. At the shop of the same firm at
Greenbank, in North Yell, the price of meal was 5s. 8d. per
lispund (32 lbs.) in the summer of 1871-<i.e.> about 24s. 6d. per
boll, while in Lerwick it ranged at 21s. 6d. Similar differences
exist there as regards other articles, such as tea and sugar.
[J. Henderson, 5514; J. Nicholson, 8738; M. Johnston, 7897; J.L.
Pole, 9396, J. Nicholson, 8736.]
HAY & CO.'S SHOPS
From Burra, Whalsay, and the other establishments of Messrs. Hay
& Co., no complaints as to prices were made. Some of their
stations are so near Lerwick that they must sell as low as possible,
in order to secure the custom of the men. It is said that at Fetlar,
one of their most remote stations, the goods are as cheap and good
as at Lerwick. The books kept at Fetlar show sales of meal in July
last at 23s., in August at 22s. 8d., and in September at 21s.; while
in these months the prices in Lerwick were-July, 21s. 6d.;
August, 21s.; September, 21s. In Fetlar, Messrs. Hay & Co. have
the only large shop. At North Roe (Hay & Co.), the most remote
shop on the mainland, the price of meal per boll, at the beginning
of the fishing season of 1871, was only 6d. or 1s. higher than at
Lerwick at the same date, according as the purchase spoken to by
a witness was made in April or May. It seems to be a fair
conclusion from the evidence that this firm does not, as a rule,
charge high prices. No complaint has been made with respect to
quality.
[W. Irvine, 3715; Catherine Petrie, 1458; G. Gaunson, 8887; J.
Garriock, 8766; A. Ratter, 7400; C. Robertson, 15,040; T. Aitken,
4836.]
VOE
The establishment of Mr. Adie at Voe (Olnafirth) is one of the
largest in Shetland. No specimens were obtained from it for
examination; but the oral evidence as to the provisions sold there
may be briefly referred to. Mr. Adie himself admits that the cost
of carriage necessarily enhances prices at Voe, and that meal is
therefore generally 2s. per boll dearer than at Lerwick. A witness
who lately went to live there, however, paid 1s. 5d. per peck for
meal which he would have got in Lerwick for 1s. 2d., or five
months ago for 1s. 3d. This is a difference not of 2s., but of 4s.
per boll; and although the witness Gilbert Scollay impressed me
unfavourably by the manner of his evidence, there is much to
corroborate his statement with regard to his dealings with the shop
at Voe. He says that -
'Ultimately I wrote to the meal dealers in the south, and I found
that there was a difference of 10s. on the sack of meal; that, upon
12 sacks, would have been a saving of £6 alone.'
[T.M. Adie, 5699; R. Mouat, 4240; C. Robertson, 15,040.]
Of course 2s. 6d., or in winter, according to Mr. Adie, 5s. per sack,
must be deducted from this difference for freight. Again, on April
21, 1868, meal being 26s. 6d. per boll see or 1s. 7d. per peck, was
sold at Voe at 1s. 9d. per peck.
[See G. Scollay, 14,975; C. Robertson, 15,040.]
R. MOUAT'S SHOP
The worst accounts are given of the meal kept at the shop of
Robert Mouat, Sandwick, formerly referred to. Henry Sinclair
says that 'the greater part of it was fit for nothing but the pigs.'
What he called his second flour, says another witness, 'was of such
a quality that it could not be eaten by human beings;' but,' he
adds, 'it had to be eaten for the support of life while it existed.'
[5330; M. Malcolmson, 3013, 3014; W. Manson, 3039; T.
Williamson, 9470; J. Robertson, jun., 15,186.]
BURRAVOE
Gilbert Robertson, a boatskipper and an elder of the kirk, gets his
supplies in Lerwick, because he found flour to be 2s. per sack, and
meal 3s. or 4s. a sack, cheaper than Burravoe, a place to which
there has for some years been steam communication from Lerwick
twice a week.
[9320]
UNST
In Unst a witness got meal from Spence & Co., at the date of the
sitting there, at 1s. 5d. per peck, or as nearly as possible 24s. 11/2d.
per boll, allowing 1/2d. a peck for loss in weighing; the price in
Lerwick being 19s. 6d. per boll, or 131/2d. a peck. During almost
the whole of the previous year the same price was charged there,
though it was sometimes 1s. 4d.; and 1s. 4d. was the price of the
same meal at Isbister's adjacent shop. The books kept at Balta
Sound show that meal was being sold at 5s. 8d. and 5s, 9d. per
lispund, or above 24s. per boll, in October 1871, while the price
in Lerwick in that month was 19s. 6d. per boll. An opinion is
expressed by the registrar of the parish Unst, that the 2s. 6d. tea he
gets in Lerwick is 'much about the same as the 3s. tea which he
gets from Spence & Co. at Balta Sound. But a favourable report
upon Spence & Co.'s 3s. tea sold to me is afterwards referred to.
[Janet Robertson, 9812; C, Robertson, 15,042; J. Laurenson, 9843,
9905; W. G. Mouat, 10,254; C. Robertson, 15,040; P. Johnson,
10,227.]
SKERRIES
At Skerries, where Mr. Adie has the shop, and is tacksman of the
islands, meal is said to be charged 7s. a sack higher than it is in
Lerwick; and an instance is given in which 6s. a sack was paid for
it, while it could have been had from any merchant in Lerwick for
50s. or 51s. In January of the present year the price was 1s, 4d. per
peck, or 23s. per per boll, at Skerries, being 19s. 6d., or 1s. 11/2d.
per peck, at Lerwick. A similar difference existed in spring 1871.
All articles at Skerries are stated to be over-priced, such as soap,
soda, and sugar, which can be got much cheaper even at Whalsay,
where Hay & Co. have a shop. On soda the overcharge is said to
be 50 per cent.
[T. Hutchison, 12,658; J. Robertson, sen., 14,569; P. Henderson,
12,756; D. Anderson, 12,795; A. Humphrey, 12,826; T. Hutchison,
12,685.]
VIDLIN
Although Mr. Robertson carries on an extensive trade in meal at
Lerwick, and there sells at town prices, his shopkeeper at Vidlin,
in Lunnasting, charges about the ordinary prices of the country
shops. A pass-book produced by a witness shows meal charged at
22s. 8d. and 22s. in September 1870, when the Lerwick price was
19s. The difference, however, does not appear to be so great here
as at some other places. Thus in February 1870 meal was 1s. 11/2
d. per peck, being 1s. per peck at Lerwick. In June 1871 overhead
flour was sold at Voe at 1s. 3d. per peck; the price at Lerwick
being 16s. 6d. per boll, or 1s. per peck, or for the finer quality of
overhead flour, about 1s. 11/2 d. per peck.
[L. Simpson, 13,884; G. Scollay, 15,013; C. Robertson, 15,032; G.
Scollay, 15,010; 15,012; C. Robertson, 15,037, 15,043.]
YELL, OLLABERRY, ETC
Prices charged by some other merchants may be mentioned at
random. Laurence Williamson, Mid Yell, sold meal in August
1871 at 3s. per 1/2 lispund, or about 25s. per boll, the Lerwick price
being then 21s. At Ollaberry shop (Anderson & Co.) 21/4 lines are
charged 2s. 3d. cash, and 2s. 6d. if marked down, while they are
got by a witness direct from Glasgow 'for 1s. 11d., including
freight and everything.' In 1871 men fishing for William Jack
Williamson at Ulsta, South Yell, paid 1s. 3d. for flour, while
there was as good at Messrs. Hay's at Feideland, a remote fishing
station, for 1s. 1d. Paraffin oil in Unst was retailed in January at
the rate of 2s. 6d. per gallon, being purchased at 1s. 5d.
[L. Williamson, 9068; A. Johnson, 14,933, G. Gilbertson, 9583.]
These are but a few instances of the statements of witnesses with
regard to the prices and qualities of goods. They appear to show
that the truck system of Shetland resembles the truck of the
English and Scotch mining and manufacturing districts in
enhancing the prices of goods to the purchasers. This is the
natural result of a system in which the purchaser has no option as
to the dealer to whom he goes for necessary supplies; but it must
also be remembered that in retail trade in rural districts custom has
a powerful effect in fixing prices, and that even if truck did not
exist, prices in so remote a region would be somewhat above the
level of Aberdeen or Wick.
I conclude this part of the subject by referring to the evidence of
Mr. James Lewis, an extensive and experienced merchant in
Edinburgh, as to the price and quality of certain samples of goods
submitted to him. The goods were purchased at the shops of
Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., Mossbank, by a person employed
by me, and that of Mr. Morgan Laurenson, Lochend, Northmaven,
by Charlotte Johnson, for her own use; and at Messrs. Spence &
Co.'s shop at Uyea Sound, by myself.
[A.T. Jamieson, 7945; C. Johnson, 15,811.]
MOSSBANK
The four articles first spoken to by Mr. Lewis were got at
Mossbank. The meal was of very inferior quality, not saleable in
the Canongate of Edinburgh; and though bought at 1s. 5d. a peck =
£1, 4s. 6d. per boll, is valued at 20s. This corresponds exactly with
the Shetland evidence as to value. Tea bought at 2s. 10d. is valued
at 2s. 4d. as the retail price in Edinburgh, which gives 211/2 per
cent. to cover carriage, risk, and <additional> profit. A tea bought
at Mossbank at 2s. 4d. is of the same value as the 2s. 10d. tea,
though somewhat different 'in style.' Sugar obtained at Mossbank
at 6d. per lb. is worth 41/2d. in retail in Canongate, so that the
merchant in Shetland takes 33 per cent. to cover carriage and <extra> profit.
[J. Lewis, 16,816.]
UYEASOUND.
Tea bought at 2s. 8d. is valued at 2s. 6d. here; and Mr. Lewis
thinks 2s. 10d. would be a fair value for it in Shetland, being a
good tea, and carrying, according to the practice of the trade, a
larger profit. Sugar bought at 5d. is valued at 41/2d.
LOCHEND.
Tea, for which the witness paid 4s. 4d., is valued at 3s., and
though by far the best of the teas examined, was much over-priced.
Loaf-sugar at 10d. should have cost only 6d., and would be too
dear at 8d. even in Shetland. Flour bought at 2d. per lb. is not fit
for use, and is not flour at all in the opinion of the reporter. Rice
at 31/2d. per lb. is fairish; would sell at 21/2d. in Canongate, and
might fairly be sold at 3d. in Shetland. Soap bought at 6d. per lb.
was worth 4d., so far as Mr. Lewis could judge of it in a dry state.
Tobacco sold at Grutness at 4d. per oz., and another sample sold at
Gavin Henderson's, Dunrossness, at 4d. per oz., are both valued at
4s. per lb., or 3d. per oz.
Throughout the islands the prices charged to the men in account
are the same, with few exceptions, as those charged to the
purchaser for cash. Mr. Adie gives a discount where the amount
purchased is worth discounting, but he also usually gives a
discount of 5 per cent. upon his men's accounts. In Unst a lower
price seems to be charged where cash is paid.
[W. Irvine, 3625; A. Tulloch, 5446; J.L. Pole, 9440, 9448; W.
Robertson, 11,111, 13,635; W.B.M. Harrison, 15,726;
L.F.U. Garriock, 12,295; T.M. Adie, 5636; J. Harper, 10,393; T.
Anderson, 10,507.]
__________________________________
SPLITTERS, BEACH-BOYS, AND WOMEN.
WAGES SETTLED IN GOODS
The fishermen hitherto spoken of are not strictly labourers
receiving wages, but may be regarded as vendors of wet fish to
the fish-merchant, or less properly as partners with him. But to
persons employed in curing fish, wages are paid, and are often
paid in goods to their full amount. In the payment of these
persons, especially the women and boys, undisguised truck exists
to an extent not exceeded in any of the trades in which the system
has been carried to the highest perfection; but the important
distinction is to be observed, that little or no compulsion or
influence is required to make the work-people take the goods.
WEEKLY PAYMENTS,
CURING BY CONTRACT
In some of the curing establishments at Lerwick the pays are
as frequent as it is reasonably possible to make them. The people
are paid every week; but in nine cases out of ten a large part of
their weekly wages is anticipated in supplies at the employer's
shop. This of course involves an amount of time and trouble,
and a risk of bad debts, which no merchant would incur, except
for a large profit, and which indeed led Messrs. Harrison & Sons
to refuse altogether to give 'out-takes' to work-people of this
class. The wages are, however, paid at Lerwick, and some of the
people spend their money at the shops of the firm, which adjoin
the pay-office. At Scalloway, where Messrs. Garriock & Co. have
no shop, they employ persons at daily wages, which are paid
weekly, or within the fortnight. But the habit of running accounts
is so inveterate in Shetlanders that 'often what they have to get on
the Saturday night is forestalled in the shops.' In contracts for
curing, which are sometimes made, Messrs. Garriock & Co. have
no dealings with the work-people employed by the contractors, but
make such advances as are necessary to them in money. It is not
always so where curing is ostensibly done by contract. Thus, in
Unst, many of the work-people employed by a contractor at
Westing have accounts in the shop-books of Spence & Co. at Uyea
Sound; settlements being effected, and sometimes advances made,
by the merchants themselves on the authority of lines given by the
contractor, stating the amount of the beach fee. The balance due is
ascertained in the merchant's books, after deducting the amount
due by the contractor for his own supplies at the shop.
[W.B.M. Harrison, 15,772; J. Manson, 2941; L.F.U. Garriock,
12,445, 12,443; A. Sandison, 10,108; P. Smith, 10,344.]
BEACH FEES
These are the cases in which exceptional circumstances are found
in dealings between merchants and persons employed at the
beaches. Throughout Shetland the most common arrangement is
to pay splitters and beach-boys or women by a beach fee, which
varies from £8 or £10 for the season to an experienced head curer,
to 30s. to a beach-boy in his first year. Sometimes extra hands are
paid weekly wages as day-workers. But even in these cases
advances are generally made in goods; and sometimes, as at
Mossbank and Greenbank, the account runs 'three, four, five, or six
weeks or perhaps the whole season.' In a passage already quoted
from the evidence of an extensive employer, it is made very clear
that these people, in whatever way they are paid, are 'expected' to
come to the employer for supplies.
[W. Pole, 5917; p. 14, see above.]
The operation of truck in this department is shown in the
examination of Mr. Robertson, manager for Mr. Leask, who
employs 80 persons regularly, and others occasionally, in his
curing establishments near Lerwick. Mr. Robertson afterwards
produced a 'time-book' for the people employed at Sound Beach,
near Lerwick,
13,607. ....'to show the proportion of money and of goods received
by each. [Produces book.]'
'13,608. That is a time-book for the work-people employed in 1871
at Sound Beach, which is about a mile from Lerwick?-Yes. It
shows the amount of cash paid, the balance, of course, being the
amount of their accounts for the week.'
'13,609. The first name is M'Gowan Gray?-He is the
superintendent.'
'13,610. The entry in his case is, Cash 2s., time 6, wages 10s.: what
does that mean?-He has 10s. a week of wages, six days a week,
and 2s. is the cash he has to get.'
'13,611. The entry in the inner column is made at pay-day,
showing the amount of cash he has to get?-Yes.'
'13,612. How is the amount of cash ascertained?-We have a
ledger account with each individual, which is settled every week,
but perhaps it may not be balanced. We do not generally balance
until the end of the year, but we square accounts before.'
'13,613. Is the account squared to ascertain the amount of cash
payable?-Yes, the amount of cash due to the individual.'
'13,618. Are the balances entered here always paid in cash?-
Always.'
'13,619. Are they never allowed to lie?-Not with the
work-people.'
'13,620. Is the week ending 2d Sept. 1871, of which this-
[showing]-is the account, a fair average of week throughout the
season?-I think it will be about a fair average.'
'13,621. It shows £5, 17s. 5d. as the total amount of wages earned;
and of that, £3, 19s. 7d. was paid in cash at the end of the week,
the rest having been taken out in the course of the week in
goods?-Yes, principally in provisions.'
'13,622. I see that in one case it had been altogether taken out in
goods, and there was no cash due?-Yes; but in others you will
find that there has been nothing taken out, and that the whole was
paid in cash.'
'13,623. I see that in six cases cash has been paid in full out of
twenty-seven people employed?-Yes.'
'13,624. I fancy that in that week rather more has been paid in cash
than the average, because in the following week £2, 9s. 2d. was
due, and £1, 1s. 6d was paid in cash. In another week £4, 12s. 2d.
was payable, and £1, 11s. 10d. was paid in cash. In another week
£4, 6s. 9d. was payable, and £1,4s. 5d was paid in cash, there
being twenty-five persons employed in that week. Then, in the last
week which appears in the book, £3, 14s. 7d. was payable, and £1,
2s. 7d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed
then also?-Yes; people of course require the same amount of
provisions whether they earn much or little, the amount of their
balance in cash being less where the work has been less.'
[W. Robertson, 11,248.]
The story from other places is much the same. Thus, at Scalloway,
where Messrs. Hay & Co. have a curing establishment, their
manager's evidence is:-
'11,430. Is payment made to them in the shop at the counter?-
Yes. Their advances are entered against them in the book, and
then their wages are placed to their credit; and if they have
anything to get, it is given to them.'
'11,431. Is there a separate ledger account for each of these
parties?-Yes; every one has an account, and when he gets
advances these are put to that account.'
'11,432. Can you say that any money ever passes at any settlement
with these beach people?-Sometimes there has been a little, but
not a great deal.'
[G. Tulloch, 11,430.]
The beach fee, which is the usual mode of payment to beach-boys,
is almost always anticipated to a large extent, and the advances of
goods sometimes begin as soon as the boy is engaged in the
winter-<i.e.>, from three to six months before the work is begun.
An example of the practice is presented in the evidence of James
Garrioch, shopkeeper at Fetlar for Messrs. Hay & Co.; from an
analysis of which it appears that of £16, 6s. payable as beach fees
to nine boys, less than £7 was paid in cash, chiefly at settlement;
and of £13, 5s. due to two men employed as curers, only £3 was
paid in money. An examination of the books of Spence & Co.
leaves the impression that most of the men and boys employed by
them in curing at Balta Sound and Haroldswick take goods to an
amount exceeding their beach fees.
[W. Goudie, 4401; J. Flaws, 5011; T.M. Adie, 5754; T. Thomason,
6241; J. Anderson, 6602; T. Hutchison, 12,608; J. Robertson,
sen.,14,086; J. Garrioch, 8791; W.G. Mouat, 10,277.]
At Quendale, Sumburgh, and other places, where the tenants are
bound to deliver their fish to the landlord, it is one of the
conditions of their holding that 'they have to supply boys when
they have them suitable for the purpose.'
[G. Jamieson, 13,361; A. J.Grierson, J. Bruce jun., G. Irvine, W.
Goudie, 4369; J. Burgess, 5106.]
FAROE FISHING.
The cod fishing in smacks, chiefly on the banks near the Faroe
Islands, has become an important branch of commerce in
Shetland, In 1871 it employed 63 smacks, whose total tonnage
was 2809 tons. They carried 816 men.' The produce of the
fishing 1871, an unsuccessful year, was 370,597 fish, weighing
14,337 cwt. dry. In addition to these vessels belonging to Shetland
owners, five curers in Shetland purchased at a fixed price the fish
of 21 English smacks (tonnage, 680; men, 210), being 200,042
fish, weighing 5097 cwt. dry. The whole cure from the Shetland
Faroe fishing was thus 19,434 cwt. In 1867 the Shetland smacks,
61 in number, weighing 2326 tons, and carrying 699 men, brought
home 399,148 fish, or 14,031 cwt. In that year 24 English smacks
(tonnage, 960; men, 222) sold to curers in Shetland 175,125 fish,
or 6280 cwt.; making the total cure in Shetland in that year 21,301
cwt.
In the Faroe fishery the smacks always belong to the curer or
merchant. A written contract is made with the men, generally in
December. They agree to join the vessel on a day fixed, or to be
fixed, in March, and to prosecute the fishing until the middle of
August, on the coasts of Faroe, or other places in the North Sea,
exerting themselves to make a successful fishing. If any person
fails in the performance of his duty, his fee is to be reduced. The
owners become bound to cure the fish, which the men split and
salt on board as soon as caught. The owners sell the fish, when
cured, for the benefit of all concerned. From the proceeds are
deducted the expense of curing and of bait, together with a
commission of five per cent. in some cases, for management and
sale, allowances to master and mate, and score money, <i.e.> 6d. or
9d. per score of sizeable fish, to be divided among the crew
according to the number caught by each man. The net proceeds
after these deductions are equally divided between the owners and
the crew, the crew accepting their half in full of wages and
provisions, except 1 lb. of biscuit <per diem> provided by the
owners. The share to be taken by each man, whether a full share
or a half share, 2-3, 7-12 share, or whatever it may be, is written
opposite the signature of each man. The men are bound, if the
master or owners see fit, to leave Faroe for Iceland before the 30th
August 'to endeavour for a late voyage' to go and fish for wages
and victuals on a scale annexed to the agreement. These
stipulations, with some others for the protection of the vessel, are
usually in the agreement; but one owner uses a much shorter form,
which will be found in the Evidence.
[L.F.U. Garriock, 12,414; T.M.Adie, 5726; J. Walker, 15,941,
15,957; W. Pole, 5956; W. Robertson, 13,603.]
The vessel is fitted out ready for sea by the owners; salt and curing
materials are put on board at the joint expense; but the men
provide themselves with lines and hooks, and all provisions except
bread. These they always buy at the owner's shop, and they
are entered in their private accounts. It is unnecessary to analyze
the evidence as to the custom of dealing with the merchant-owner
for provisions, etc. for the family, which is exactly similar to the
custom already described as prevailing among the ling fishermen.
Some of that evidence has already been noticed, and the chief
passages are noted on the margin. Some of the evidence led me to
think that the proportion of out-takes to earnings is less in the
Faroe fishing than the ling fishing, and this theory was confirmed
by several obvious considerations. The men are often young men
without families or with small families, and they sometimes live
at such distances from the merchant's shop as to make it
inconvenient to resort thither constantly. Moreover, in years of
average success, the earnings of the Faroe fishing are larger than
those of the ling fishing, and the men therefore are generally more
independent. It follows from the nature of the employment, that
they are also upon the whole a more active and energetic class of
men than those exclusively engaged in the ling fishery.
[C. Sinclair, 1157; J. Johnston, 12,232; W.B.M. Harrison, 15,720;
P. Garriock, 15,212; M. Johnston, 7868; J. Pottinger, 13,592; W.
Blance, 6099; P. Blance, 8521, (supra p. 15) W. Pole, 5956.]
It appears, notwithstanding, both from the statements of witnesses
and the returns, that a very considerable proportion, not less than
in the ling fishery, of the earnings of Faroe fishermen is paid in
'out-takes.' Mr. Lewis Garriock, one of the leading merchants,
says:
'The fishermen's proportion is paid to each of them in cash,
under deduction of any provisions and articles of clothing for
themselves, and provisions, etc., supplied to their families during
the season, so far as they have supplied themselves from us; but
they are under no obligation to take such advance from us, and
can, if they choose, buy their articles from any shopkeeper, either
for cash (which many of them have spare) or on credit. A few of
the men can do without advances, having spare money; but the
fishing could not be carried on if we were not to supply them,
especially as regards the lads in their first and second year.'
'In years when the fishing is not remunerative advances merchants
making these lose heavily in bad debts.'
'I have gone carefully over the accounts with the crews of two
smacks, and produce an abstract of the men's accounts, which
shows that, as respects one of them in 1870, we accounted to them
for £427,19s. 2d., of which they had from us for lines, hooks, and
provisions on board, £71, 7s. 9d.; clothing, and supplies of meal,
etc., to their families, £114, 14s. 5d.; and in cash, £239, 17s. The
other crew, in 1870, had, in lines, hooks, and provisions, £81, 7s.
11d.; goods, £129, 0s. 8d.; and in cash, £374, 13s. 6d. The same
crew, in 1871, in lines, provisions, etc., £63, 3s. 4d.; goods, £67,
7s.; cash, £198, 9s. 7d. Looking at the last two years, as regards
our fishermen in smacks, it appears they have had considerably
more than half their gross shares paid them in cash .'
'We would, as merchants, greatly prefer a cash system, payment
being made upon the fish being delivered, the same as we do to
English smacks fishing-for us at a contract price-and we derive
about one-third of our cure from this source. But I believe were
such a mode attempted, it would lead to fixed wages, and would
end in loss to both men and owners and a great falling off in this
branch of the fishery.'
I have already mentioned that some attempts have been made to
hold tenants or their sons bound to engage in their landlords' or
tacksmen's smacks for this fishing; but it rather appears that these
attempts have not always been successful. [See pp. 7, 15]
The men have not come forward to complain of this. The only
grievance which some of them have stated is, that they do not see
the bills of sale, and that they are therefore not satisfied that they
are fairly treated in settling.
[M. Johnston, 7868; P. Blance, 8531; J. Pottinger, 13, 658.]
HOME COD FISHERY.
This fishery is carried on chiefly by Garriock & Co., Reawick,
who used to have ten or twelve, but last year had only five smacks
engaged in it, with crews of nine hands. The fishing season is
from 1st May to 15th August.* The men are engaged on shares,
and are settled with in the same way as those on board the Faroe
smacks. There is this difference, that the owners do not provide
bread or coals, and the men get seven-twelfths of the earnings.
The men come home every week. A copy of a settlement with the
crew of one of these vessels, produced by Mr. Garriock, shows that
four-fifths of the whole earnings were paid in cash, the rest being
taken in goods.
* <Sea Fisheries Commission Evidence>, 31,851, 31,974.
<Account of Herring and White Fisheries in the Shetland Islands>
by A. Anderson, p. 22 (London 1834. Pp. 32).
[L.F.U. Garriock, 14,468; J. Johnston, 12,236; L.F.U. Garriock,
12,474.]
KELP
The manufacture of kelp from sea-weed is still prosecuted to a
large extent on the coasts of Shetland. The tang or sea-weed is
gathered and burnt by women, from May till August. In most
cases the fish-merchant of the district has a tack or lease of the
kelp-shores from the landlord, for payment of a royalty of about
15s. per ton. The women are employed by him, or without any
previous arrangement gather the kelp and burn it,- of course with
the understanding that they must deliver it to him. They invariably
have accounts at his shop for provisions, tea, and dry goods. The
merchants themselves state that these accounts generally exhaust
the whole summer's earnings. The accounts are generally settled
in winter,-sometimes, as in Unst, when the kelp is delivered; and
it is not alleged that the women have any difficulty in getting
money, if any is due to them, at settlement. There are in most
districts two prices for kelp, or more properly two rates of wages
for gathering and burning kelp,-at present, 4s. per cwt. if paid in
cash, 4s. 6d. if paid in goods; and it is usually paid in goods. In
one or two places I found only one price, 4s.; and at Greenbank, in
North Yell, Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co. pay 3s. 6d. in cash, and
4s. in goods. In Unst, from 120 to 130 women were employed and
at Lunna 60.
[P.M. Sandison, 5262; H. Williamson, 6337; Mrs Hughson, 6360;
E. Peterson; 6466; J. Anderson, 6632; D. Greig; J. Brown, 7986; J.
Garriock, 8839.]
EGGS, BUTTER, ETC.
Every shopkeeper in the country districts buys eggs and butter.
The wife of the small farmer has the management of this
department of rural economy. She takes the eggs and butter to
the shop, and seldom thinks of getting money for them. They are
commonly paid for in goods, which are handed over at the time;
but it does not appear that money would be refused if asked for. I
found no instance of transactions of this kind being entered in an
account.
[E. Peterson, 6484; W. Stewart, 8967; A. Sandison, 10,169; G.
Tulloch, 11,437; W. Harcus, 11,853; G. Georgeson, 12,038,
12,047; A. Abernethy, 12,254; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,295; R.
Henderson, 12,929; T. Tulloch, 13,015; R. Simpson, 14,022.]
HOME-SPUN CLOTH.
In some districts the people make a grey woollen cloth, which
they dispose of to the merchants or shopkeepers. Mr. Anderson,
Hillswick, states that most of his dealings in this cloth are settled
for at the time in cash or goods. Another witness testifies to the
difficulty of getting money, and his being obliged to take goods;
and it appears that formerly there was one price in goods and
another in cash. There is little evidence about this industry, which
is now confined to particular districts. It shows that those who are
free prefer to settle in cash or goods, as they choose, at the time of
delivery; but that where the maker or her husband is indebted, it
enters the account, and the merchant gives such amount of cash or
goods as he judges fit. The wool is sometimes provided by the
merchants at a price fixed and marked in account, and the cloth
is paid for at the current price when returned, the cost of the
wool being deducted. The people never think of selling the
manufactured goods to another merchant. It may be a question
whether the colourable sale of the materials to the workwoman
saves transactions of this kind, in the making of woollen cloth,
from the operation of the existing Truck Act.
[Mrs. C. Johnston, 8163, 8124.]
HERRING FISHERY.
The herring fishery is prosecuted in Shetland to a very limited
extent, and in late years has not been fortunate. It has been said
that this want of success is because the men of Shetland do not go
to the herring fishing till late in the year, when the shoals have
passed them. In 1833 the herring fishing in Shetland is stated to
have employed 500 boats and 2500 men; and the total number of
barrels cured to have been 10,000 in 1830, 20,000 in 1831, 28,000
in 1832, and 36,000 in 1833.* It is carried on in August and
September by some of the men who have been engaged in the ling
fishery during the earlier part of the season. The men are paid at a
fixed rate per cran, as at Wick, the men buying from the curer nets,
which are put into their accounts. A witness stated that it took
him, or rather his crew, between eight and nine years to pay off the
price of his nets, 'because they had lean fishings.' The price of the
herrings is credited to the men at the annual settlement.
*Mr. Anderson's pamphlet on the 'Herring and White Fisheries in
the Shetland Islands,' gives an account of the herring fishing as it
existed in 1834, showing that it was prosecuted then, as it is now,
under the same circumstances as to truck and tenure as have been
detailed with regard to the ling fishery.
[T. Robertson, 8605; W. Williamson, 10,337.]
Mr. J. Robertson, sen., describes his recent experience in the
herring fishery in the north-west of the Mainland. He arranged
with some of the men who fished ling for him in summer that they
should fish herring also for him, instead of Mr. Adie, for whom
they had in previous years gone to the herring fishing. It was part
of the arrangement that he should 'clear them off with Mr. Adie,'
by paying their debts in accounts with him. It thus cost Mr.
Robertson £300 in cash advances, which, he says, 'account for the
large amount of debt shown to be due in 1870' by his fishermen.
These men get half the fish for their labour, and the other half goes
to the credit of the boat and nets supplied by the merchant. The
price of the herring is the same as that paid by Messrs. Hay & Co.
[J. Robertson, sen., 14,108; 14,126.]
It would seem that the large sum required for nets is apt, as at
Wick, to lay upon the fisherman an amount of debt which he is
ill able to bear.
[C. Sinclair, 1135.]
PAYMENTS TO PAUPERS.
In the last Report of the Board of Supervision of the Poor, there is
a 'Special Report by the General Superintendent of the Northern
District (Mr. Peterkin) as to the Administration of the Poor-Law in
Shetland.' The concluding part of this Report describes fully and
correctly the facts as to shop dealings with paupers; and as it was
communicated to me before I went to Shetland, I did not consider
it necessary to spend much time in making further inquiries in
regard to a subject already so carefully investigated. In one of the
parishes, where the poor-law is practically administered, as Mr.
Peterkin says, by these merchants and fish-curers, the inspector of
poor was examined; and his evidence shows, I think, that the
recent action of the Board of Supervision in this matter has been
as effective as could be expected in a country where it is difficult
or impossible to find either members of boards or inspectors
altogether free from interest in 'shops.' An example of the state of
things described by Mr. Peterkin is afforded by the evidence of
Gilbert Scollay, who is employed by the parishes of Delting and
Lunnasting to keep paupers. He is indebted to Mr. Adie, chairman
of the Parochial Board of Delting; he signed an order entitling Mr.
Adie to draw all the money payable to him by the parish for the
support of a lunatic in his charge; and he got part of his supplies
from Mr. Adie's shop, and part from Mr. Robertson's shop at
Vidlin, in Lunnasting, in consequence of his having in his keeping
another pauper from that parish.
[Appendix, p. 65; J. Bruce, 7638, L.F.U. Garriock, 12,503; G.
Jamieson, 15,407, 15,418, 15,468; G. Scollay, 8387, 8389, 8418,
8419, 8427; Poor-Law Directory for 1871.]
FAIR ISLAND.
This island is situated half way between Orkney and Shetland,
being about twenty-five miles distant from each. It is about two
miles in length, and one in breadth. The population in 1861 was
380; but, after a season of great scarcity, about 100 of the people
emigrated to America. Emigration has taken place also at other
times. Thus-'Six families left Fair Island and came to Kirkwall
in 1869. We all left because meal was so dear, and wages were so
low. They all left of their own accord.' I was informed by Mr.
Balfour, of Balfour and Trenaby, that a colony of Fair Island
people form a fishing village in Stronsay, in Orkney, where they
have now been for two generations. At all times emigration must
have been necessary to prevent intolerable overcrowding in so
small an area. and yet the whole circumstances of the island show
that this remedy is resorted to with great reluctance. At present the
island is inhabited by about 40 families, or 226 persons.
[T. Wilson, p. 425; J. Bruce, jun. p. 330; T. Wilson, 16,656.]
The island is the property of Mr. John Bruce, jun., of Sumburgh.
Before 1864 it belonged to Mr. Stewart of Brough, a proprietor in
Orkney, and was held in tack by merchants of Orkney, who bought
the people's fish and sold them provisions and goods.
It was impossible in winter to visit the island, or to get any
witnesses brought out of it. But as the truck system was generally
said to be practised there to an excessive degree, I received
evidence from various persons acquainted with the island, viz.:
Mr. Bruce, the proprietor; his factor; persons who had visited the
island in his employment; and from two of its former inhabitants
now living at Kirkwall, who left it about two years ago.
The people are obliged to sell their fish (seath or coal-fish) to Mr.
Bruce. They get a lower price than that paid in Shetland. Mr.
Bruce says:
'As I have to keep a store there for the convenience of the
islanders, I discourage them from trading with any one else, as the
only chance to make my store pay is to get the whole or the greater
part of their custom.'
'Though there is a rule that the islanders shall not trade with
others, I have never enforced this rule where I believed the parties
visiting the island did not attempt to buy fish-in fact, in many
cases I have given liberty to parties to trade with the islanders; and
the only case in which I have enforced the rule, is in the case of a
man from Orkney who, I had evidence to prove, stole my fish from
the station at night, and shipped it on board of his vessel.'
'I have no poor-rates and no paupers in Fair Isle, and I have never
evicted a tenant. If a widow or other poor person can't pay their
rents, they sit rent free, and get help from their friends; and my
manager has orders to see that no one starves.'
And again:
'13,326. With regard to Fair Isle, is there a standing prohibition
against other traders dealing with the inhabitants there?-To a
certain extent there is. I don't object to people trading there, if
they confine themselves to hosiery and eggs, and that sort of thing;
but what I am afraid of is, that persons may go there and buy fish.'
'13,327. The inhabitants there are under an obligation, as a
condition of their tenure, to fish for you?-Yes.'
'13,328. As the landlord, do you place a restriction upon the sale
of their cattle also?-Yes, there is a rule to that effect, but it is a
very lax one.'
'13,329. Is it not virtually the result of the obligation to fish or to
sell cattle to the proprietor alone, that the proprietor has the power
of fixing the price, and that the tenant has no option at all with
regard to that in either case?-That is not the result. Even
although the proprietor buys the cattle, and prevents any one else
from competing with him, still he respects public opinion so far
that he gives the full value for the animal.'
'13,330. Then public opinion is the only check upon the proprietor,
and of course his own sense of right?-That is his only check.''
It is obvious that rules such as these must be injurious, unless they
are worked not only with a sincere desire for the true welfare of
the people, but with diligent care and sound judgment. There is no
reason to doubt that Mr. Bruce desires to be both kind and just to
his people; but it is plain that at Fair Island, as at Sumburgh, his
system has not proved advantageous to the people who are placed
so entirely at his mercy.
The people complain that they get a lower price for the fish than is
paid in Shetland, and that excessively high prices are charged for
the goods sold to them at the shop. They also complain that wages
allowed for work to the proprietor are too low, and that they were
prevented by him from working at better wages to one Williamson,
who bought a ship wrecked on the island in 1868, and who
employed men to work at the wreck. The settlements are annual,
though sometimes a year has been passed; and they do not take
place till June, when all accounts are settled up to let May. No
money is asked for or paid until settlement.
The restrictions of the islanders to the master's store is strict, and
indeed avowed; and there is some difficulty and risk in dealing
with the strangers who occasionally come to the island to trade.
One of these, James Rendall of Westray, Orkney, has come into
collision with Mr. Bruce's people; the people of the house in
which he lodged were forbidden to allow his business to be carried
on there, and he was driven to erect a stage below high-water mark
and sell his goods there. Once at least, when Mr. Bruce and his
factor were on the island, he carried on his traffic by night. The
prohibition is directed, according to Mr. Bruce, only against the
sale to strangers of cattle and fish; but the people have so little
money, that that may be held as nearly equivalent to a prohibition
to buy goods from them.
[H. Smith, 4747; T. Wilson, 16,656; L. Wilson, 16,659; G. Irvine,
13,238; J. Smith, 13,058.]
The price paid for fish by Mr. Bruce is generally 10s. a ton less
than he gives at Grutness.
The prices of goods are considerably higher than even the prices at
Grutness. Thus two witnesses say that meal, before they left the
island in 1869, was never lower than 30s. per boll, while they had
bought it from Rendall at 26s. and 24s., and from Williamson,
when he was working at the wreck of the 'Lessing,' 3s. or 4s.
cheaper than at the shop. It could then be got at Kirkwall at 23s.
or 24s. Rendall sold sugar at 6d., while the same quality was 7d.
at the shop; and tea at 9d. and 10d., while it was 11d. and 1s. 1d.
at the shop, and once 1s. 3d. On a rare occasion Mr. Bruce had
loaf-sugar at the shop, which was 1s 2d. or 1s. 3d. per lb. Soap,
invoiced to Mr. Bruce at 28s. per cwt., was sold at Fair Island at
6d. per lb., exactly double the wholesale price.
[H. Gilbertson, 4734; T. Wilson, 16,656; L. Wilson, 16,659; G.
Irvine, 13,234, 13,235.]
FOULA.
CENSUS.
This island is situated eighteen miles from the nearest point on the
west side of the Mainland. It is three miles long, and two miles
broad. Its hills or precipices are very lofty, the highest point being
1369 feet above the sea. In 1861, the population was 233. The
people are said to be a superior race to those of Fair Island. It is
the property of R.T.C. Scott, Esq. of Melby.
The fishing and the shop are entirely in the hands of Messrs.
Garriock & Co., who are factors for the proprietor. No other shop
is allowed, and no other traders have tempted for some time to
trade with the people at the island. I did not hear, directly or
indirectly, that any complaints are made by the people with regard
to the business arrangements of Mr. Garriock. It is said, indeed,
that the people are trucked; but current rumour in Shetland, even
among the opponents of truck, does not allege that any gross
abuses exist in the island. The island is difficult of access, and the
only evidence with regard to it is that of Mr. Garriock himself.
'12,880. Would you continue to supply them if you did not have
the bulk of their dealings?-No, we would not keep a shop there if
we did not have the bulk of their dealings; it would not be worth
our while. I may explain that, a few years ago, some of the
youngmen wished to cure their own fish, and go out with them to
the Mainland. There was a little discussion amongst them about it,
and we put it to them whether they would wish to have that liberty
or not; and in order to ascertain their views, we sent in a paper to
the schoolmaster, and asked him to circulate it among the men.
[The witness put in a document in the following terms, signed in
the affirmative by 65 men:- .
'"Garriock & Co., who have for the last fourteen years kept a
curing establishment on the island of Foula, and found the
undivided produce small enough to pay for the trouble and risk of
it, while furnishing the necessaries of life, fishing material, etc., at
ordinary rates, would, now that some parties have shown an
inclination and even begun to cure their own fish, wish to ascertain
the views of the people as to whether they desire G. & Co. to
continue their establishment as before; or would they prefer each
to cure as it suits him, and provide his necessaries as he can?
Whilst there is always the most perfect freedom to all to fish, labour
and sell their produce in what appears to them the best
market, the isolated position of the island appears to require that one
system be followed by all." '
'"The heads of families and other fishermen will therefore please
indicate their views by subscribing below, adding yes if the former
system be preferred; or no, if otherwise.-1867."]
'12,381. Were there any negatives to the paper?-No. It created
great alarm amongst the people, because they were afraid they
would be left to their own resources.'
'12,382. In consequence of that you continued to supply the
islanders?-Yes, we went on as before ....'
'12,386. Since you sent in that paper, has any attempt been made
by the inhabitants of Foula to cure their fish themselves?-No; we
found it needless to have sent in that paper, because they had given
it up themselves, as it had not been paying them.'
'12,387. But that paper had the effect of making it quite clear to
the inhabitants of Foula that they must either give their fish to you
green, or you would remove your shop?-We would either have
their whole trade or none of it. It is a great risk to send vessels and
boats there, and part of their trade would not pay, I may say that we
supply goods there at the same price as we do at our shop at
Reawick.'
NORTHERN WHALE AND SEAL FISHING.
The owners of Vessels engaged in this trade, and belonging to
Hull, Dundee, and Peterhead, find it convenient to engage large
numbers of their crew at Lerwick, where they call in their voyages
northwards in February or March and in May. For this purpose
agents at Lerwick are employed, who receive a commission of 21/2
per cent. on the wages of the men. None of these agents are, I
believe, licensed by the Board of Trade, under sec. 146 of the
Merchant Shipping Act of 1854; but no prosecution for penalties
for supplying seamen, under sec. 147 of the Statute, has been
directed against any of them, or against the masters of the ships for
which they act. The men are paid by monthly wages at a low rate,
and by sums of 'striking-money,' 'fish money,' 'oil money,' and
'bone money,' which vary according to the success of the voyage.
The whole earnings are payable when the men are discharged,
except a second payment of oil-money-a small balance left over
until the oil has been boiled, and its exact due amount ascertained.
It was stated by witnesses examined before Mr. Sellar in 1871,*
and by Mr. Hamilton in a Report to the Board of Trade partly
printed in the former Report,** that the chief profit of these
agents, who are also shopkeepers, 'arises from what they can make
out of the earnings of the men;' that the agents are interested in
finding employment for the men who are in their debt, the
inference being that they procure engagements for them in
preference to others; that, for security of the agent's advances,
allotment notes are made out in his favour; that even men who
have means to pay for their outfit are obliged to deal at the
agents' shops, that they may have their assistance in getting an
engagement; and that settlements of wages, which ought by law to
be made at the Custom-house within three days of the ship's
return, are often delayed for months, in order that the accounts at
the agents' shops may be increased.
*First Report, Min. of Ev., qu. 44,217 ** Report, p. xcix.
AGENTS' EVIDENCE IN CONTRADICTION OF FORMER REPORT
Most of the agents engaged in this business came forward to
contradict the statements of the former witnesses, and of Mr.
Hamilton's official Report; and they evinced much indignation,
especially with regard to the latter. Upon their own evidence,
however, the state of matters in times not very long past is not
inaccurately described by Mr. Hamilton. It is true, indeed, that his
Report, as printed, does not notice that the Board of Trade, acting
through Mr. Gatherer, Collector of Customs and Superintendent of
the Mercantile Marine Office at Lerwick, had, shortly before he
wrote, taken measures to secure that the men should be paid
their wages according to law, in cash, in presence of the
Superintendent; but the efforts of the authorities do not appear
to have been quite successful at the time when the Report was
written. Although even now some improvements are required, the
men's dealings with the agents have evidently decreased during
the last few years.
[L.F.U. Garriock, 12,543.]
The understanding that men shall get their supplies where they
get their employment is so universal in Shetland, that it is not
surprising that it should have extended to the men employed in the
whaling ships; and although Mr. Hamilton's description may be
coloured by his personal acquaintance with a few extreme cases, a
knowledge of the system prevailing in the local fisheries certainly
raises the strongest presumption in favour of its substantial
accuracy.
[A. Sandison, 7088; A. Moffat, 16,352; A. Goodlad, 16,399; P.
Halcrow, 15,549; W. Robertson, 16,581.]
The substance of the evidence on this subject may be stated in a
few sentences:-
The debts of the seamen to the agents are often considerable in
bad years, and the agents often lose a great deal by bad debts. The
amount of the accounts after successful voyages may be seen from
the abstracts given in by Messrs. Hay & Co. and Mr. Tulloch.
Mr. Tulloch and Mr. Tait agree in saying that the men's average
out-takes still amount to about one-fifth of their earnings; and Mr.
Robertson estimates them at one-fourth. In the case of the
'Camperdown,' in 1865, under the old system, the men's earnings
for both the seal and whale fishery amounted to £1537, 10s. 3d.;
the amount of cash paid was £1120, 12s. 3d.; leaving £416, 18s.
for goods sold. This case was selected by the witness. The
accounts in the agent's ledger are settled when the men come to
Lerwick for the purpose, many within a month or two after the
men are landed, but in other cases, where the men live at a
distance, not for several months. No doubt the men are in some
measure to be blamed for this; but there can be no doubt that they
would attend for payment at the proper time if the agents and
shipmaster seriously insisted on their doing so. Before 1867 the
men received the balance of wages due to them at the agent's
office, the whole of the payments in cash and supplies of goods
made in the course of the year to themselves or their families
having been deducted. The account was balanced by payment of
the sum remaining due after these deductions. Since 1867 the
account in the agent's books is still in the same form, and is
balanced exactly in the same way; but the seaman goes through the
form of receiving at the Mercantile Marine Office the whole sum
due to him, under deduction only of the advances, etc., allowed by
the Merchant Shipping Act. His account is read over and made
ready for settlement before he goes to the Mercantile Marine
Office; and after he has got the lawful sum of money there, he
returns to the agent's office, and either hands back what he owes
for goods or cash advanced over and above the legitimate
deductions already made, or he hands over the whole money he
has got at the Custom-house to the agent, that he may pay himself,
and settle the account in the regular Shetland fashion. The
accounts due for former years to other agents are sometimes
deducted from the balance due; and with this view, it was formerly
the practice, not yet quite obsolete, that lists of indebted men
should be handed from one agent to another, and that their old
accounts should be found standing against them in the books of
their new agent. Down to 1870 accounts were still 'squared' at the
Custom-house in some cases, the agent handing over there only the
exact sum due to the men.
[W. Robertson, 10,938, 10,048; J. Gatherer, 15,895; A. Munro,
16,193; W. Robertson, 16,631; W. Robertson, 11,130, 11,213; J.
Leisk, 14,632; A. Goodlad, 16,419; A. Munro, 16,161; G.
Williamson, 9624; W. Robertson, 11,029; W.B. Tulloch, 14,382;
W. Garriock, 16,800; W.Robertson, 10,974, 11,031; W.B. Tulloch,
14,420, A. Munro, 16,182.]
It is explained to the men, when they first come to the agent's
office and have their ledger account adjusted, that the 'account of
wages' settled at the Mercantile Marine Office does not include
the agent's account of supplies, and that he has to pay that
afterwards; or he is told at the Custom-house to go down and pay
his money back. It is still quite understood that the agent having
the first claim on the man's wages in honour, if not in law, he has
to go down at once to pay the amount of his account; and instances
of failure in this respect are hardly known.
[W. Robertson, 11,022, 11,212; G.R. Tait, 14,529.]
The outfit and some of the family supplies are almost always taken
from the agent's shop; but many of the men live so far from
Lerwick, that the distance forbids them to deal with him to a large
extent. The circumstances of the men are generally so much better
than those of ordinary ling fishermen, that they are not compelled
to get credit to the same extent, or perhaps can get it near home,
since the enforcement of the law in 1867 gave some security that
the earnings of the year's voyages would not be forestalled. The
outfit is still almost invariably got from the agent; and Mr.
Robertson, whose special mission was to deny everything in the
former evidence and in the Report by Mr. Hamilton, could not
point to any case where it had been got elsewhere. Young hands
in their first voyage must get their outfit from the agent; and as in
their case the outfit is generally very expensive, the number of
young hands engaged since 1867 has decreased, the agents being
unwilling to give an outfit or credit, which one season's wages are
often insufficient to pay.
[W. Robertson, 10,973; A.B. Jamieson, 14,318, 14, 321; J. Leisk,
14,637, 14,680; W. Robertson, 10,940, 10,954; W.B. Tulloch,
14,448; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,509; W. Robertson, 16,593; P.
Moodie, 14,675.]
Notwithstanding the enforcement of the law as to payment of
wages, the old custom of dealing with the agent who gets the
engagement is still not without force; and some men say that it is
still so strong as to deprive them of credit elsewhere, because they
are expected not only by the agent, but by other tradesmen, to be
running an account at his shop.
[A. Moffat, 16,352; A. Goodlad, 16,399.]
Allotment notes have not come into general use at Lerwick; and
when they are drawn up, they are sometimes taken in the name of
the agent, or some one in his employment. Many families in either
case are supplied with goods as they want them, or, if they live in
Lerwick, with a weekly allowance of meal, the only difference
being that the sums in allotment notes need not undergo the
process of being handed over at the Mercantile Marine Office.
The money obtained on advance notes is often paid back at once to
the agent for outfit or supplies, or rather the advance note is left
with the agent, in security of the goods supplied. It is stated by
Mr. Robertson (10,968) that the first month's advance is paid in
cash. and that the men may spend it where they like. But since
leaving Shetland I have received a very detailed statement by a
seaman, that he was this year refused such payment unless he took
two-thirds in goods. That statement, however, is not an oath, and
therefore does not form part of the evidence. Of course an
advance note is not strictly due until after the man has joined the
ship; but the practice is as Mr. Robertson states in his evidence.
Only one case is spoken to in which an agent refused or hesitated
to give cash for a balance due to a seaman. But in older times it
was usual to 'shove off' the men, giving 10s. or £1 at a time, and
refusing to settle with them.
[A. Blanch, 9144; G. Williamson, 9608; A.B. Jamieson, 14,311,
W. Robertson, 11,180; A. Goodlad, 16,358; P. Halcrow, 15,552;
W. Laurenson, 15,601.]
It is in evidence that many men believe that the agents, who have
unquestionably a voice in regard to the selection of the men,
procure berths in the first place for those who are indebted to them
for outfit and supplies. Of course they have, as they admit, a
strong interest to do so; and it is said that masters have complained
of inferior men being put upon them for this reason. But no very
distinct evidence as to this could be obtained. Two cases are
referred to in which agents declined to procure engagements for
men, or tried to prevent their being engaged. In one of these the
offence was having drawn the money due for the sealing voyage,
instead of letting it remain until after the whaling voyage.
[W.R. Tulloch, 14,490; W. Robertson, 16,572; W. Garriock,
16,280; T. Gifford, 15,552; W. Robertson, 10,959; G.R. Tait,
14,558; F. Gifford, 15,499; W.R. Tulloch, 14,483.]
While, therefore, Mr. Hamilton's Report must be received with
some qualification in regard to one or two points as to which he
could not have full information, and while it must be granted that a
cursory perusal of it leaves a stronger impression of the abuses it
exposes than a more critical study of its language justifies, its
general correctness with regard to a recent time has not been
disproved but confirmed by the attacks to which it has been
subjected. Indeed, nothing could more clearly demonstrate the
truth of the general conclusions to which it leads, than the fact's,
(1) that Messrs. Hay & Co., Mr. Tait, and Messrs. Laurenson &
Tulloch, three out of the four agents at Lerwick, have within the
last two years retired from the business, all stating that the
commission of 21/2 per cent. is insufficient to remunerate them for
the trouble of engaging and settling with the men; and (2) that
all the agents concur, by refusing credits, in excluding from
engagements the 'green hands,' from whom the chief part of their
profits was formerly derived. It is not surprising that these
respectable merchants, whose error consisted in carrying on
business on a system deeply rooted in the country, and which in
more than one case had descended to them from their fathers and
grandfathers, should have felt deeply the interference of new laws,
the expediency of which they were naturally unable to see. But, in
noticing the effect of these laws, imperfectly as they have hitherto
been observed, it is impossible to avoid asking whether some
analogous regulations might not effectually extirpate the truck
system in the other fishing industries in Shetland.
HOSIERY AND SHETLAND
In the Evidence, the word hosiery is used improperly to include
the large class of woollen articles knitted by the Shetland women.
The fineness of the wool of the Shetland sheep probably gave a
very early impulse to this industry. It is recorded that in the
seventeenth century a great fair for the sale of hosiery, properly so
called, was held each year, on the occasion of the visit of the
Dutch fishing fleet to Bressay Sound. The Rev. Mr. Brand says:
'The Hollanders also repair to these isles in June, as hath been said,
for their herring fishing; but they cannot be said so properly to
trade with the countrey as to fish upon their coasts, and they use to
bring all sorts of provisions necessary with them, save some fresh
victuals, as sheep, lambs, hens, etc., which they buy on shore.
Stockins also are brought by the countrey people from all quarters
to Lerwick, and sold to these fishers; for sometimes many
thousands of them will be ashore at one time, and ordinary it is
with them to buy stockins to themselves; and some likewise do
so to their wives and children, which is very beneficial to the
inhabitants, for so money is brought into the country there is a
vent for the wooll, and the poor are employed. Stockins also are
brought from Orkney, and sold there, whereby some gain accrues
to the retailers, who wait the coming of the Dutch fleet for a
market.' [Brand's <Shetland>, p. 132.]
The 'Truck system' was even then in operation, for Mr. Brand
says:
'These (Hamburg and Bremen)merchants seek nothing better in
exchange for their commodities than to truck with the countrey for
their fishes, which when the fishers engage to, the merchants will
give them either money or ware, which they please.'-p. 131.
The finer articles, now known as Shetland shawls, veils, etc., were
not manufactured till a much more recent date. Dr. Edmonstone
speaks of stockings as if they were the only product of the
Shetland knitter's industry; * and stockings and gloves are the only
articles of woollen manufacture specified as made in Shetland by
the writers of the Statistical Account in 1841 [Stat. Acc. 16, 47].
Originally the trade was entirely carried on by persons knitting
the wool grown by their own flocks, or procured from their
neighbours; and they bartered the articles so made to merchants in
Lerwick or elsewhere for goods of every kind. Transactions of this
kind, which are still common, do not fall within the provisions of
the existing Truck Acts, which apply only to the payment of
wages, and not to sales. Mr. Arthur Laurenson, the head of the
oldest house in this business, says:
* <View, etc.>, vol ii p. 1 (Edinr. 1809)
'It is only within the last twenty or thirty years that the women
have been employed, so to speak, by the merchants. It was about
1840 or 1841 that the making of shawls began to get very common
here; and about 1845 or 1846 there was a very great demand for
them. After that the veil knitting commenced, about 1848 or 1849,
and from 1852 to 1856 there was a very great trade done in veils.'
KNITTING PAID IN GOODS
Although payment in goods, or in account, of work done with the
merchants' wool may be held to be an offence under the existing
law, the custom of barter has so long existed in Shetland, and is so
thoroughly interwoven with the habits of the people, that the
question has never been raised in the local courts, and it does not
even appear to have occurred to merchants that they might be held
to infringe the law. In regard to both branches of the trade, the
sale or barter of the knitted articles, and the employment of
women to knit them, evidence has been freely given by the
merchants themselves.
In both branches of the trade, it is the custom and understanding of
the country, from Unst to Dunrossness, that payment shall be made
in goods. Formerly money payment was never thought of. Of late,
however, the custom of giving a portion of the payment in cash
has, according to Mr. Laurenson and other merchants, been
increasing. But this alleged increase is, I think, so slight as to be
hardly worth mentioning, except in regard to the very highest class
of articles. These the merchants are anxious to get, and the
women who knit them have learned to demand payment of the
whole or a portion of the price in money. There are few knitters,
however, of this class, and some of them sell their work out of
Shetland. An effort was made by some merchants to show that
money had, in some cases, been paid for hosiery; but the few cases
in which sums of any amount were so paid, and the smallness of
the payments (3d., 6d., and 1s.) which, in all but one or two
exceptional cases, appear in the women's accounts, only prove
how strictly the rule is observed that all hosiery transactions are to
be settled in goods. The cases are too numerous to be specified in
which women say that they never get money, because it is a thing
the merchants never give, and that they never ask for it; or that
they asked for it once, and being refused, did not apply again. I
give a single example. Margaret Williamson says:
'8314. Do you always get goods for your knitting?-Yes; I get
goods, because I can get nothing else.'
'8315. Do you want to get money?-I hardly ever ask for money. I
asked for a penny the last time out of 35s., and they refused to give
it to me. I bought all that I could buy out of the work I had taken
in, and when it came to the last penny I asked for it, but they
would not give it. That was at Mr. Linklater's.'
'8316. What did he say he would give it in: sweeties?-No; they
would not keep any sweeties for fear of having to give them.'
'8317. What did they give you?-They gave me the penny at
length, but they said we must take goods.'
[A. Laurenson, 2136, 2168; R. Sinclair, 2399; C. Brown, 17,026; J.
Anderson, 6645; R. Sinclair, 2440; W. Johnstone, 2836; J.J. Bruce,
3384; R. Sinclair, 2436; A. Eunson, 3422; C. Winwick, 15; E.
Robertson, 238; A. Simpson, 313; B. Johnstone, 379; Janet Irvine,
87; M. Clunas, 3459; C. Williamson, 165; Jemima Tait, 354; E.
Paterson, 6460; M. Hughson, 6347.]
Knitters who sell their goods to the shopkeepers have not always
an account in their books; perhaps, indeed, it may be said that, in a
majority of cases in Lerwick, they have not. It is different in the
country. But as it may often happen that a woman who brings a
fine shawl or a lot of veils for sale does not want the whole value
in goods at the time, or cannot make up her mind as to the
particular article she will take, a balance of the price often stands
over. The merchant will not give cash, unless it has been so
specially agreed beforehand, for he would thereby lose the
expected profit on his goods sold; and the knitter never thinks of
offering to pay a discount for money. The balance is therefore
(where the knitter has not an account) marked down in some
corner of the day-book, or a line or voucher is given. The latter
device has been adopted to a large extent in some shops. The most
perfect, and perhaps the most extensive system of lines, is that in
use in the shop of Messrs. R. Sinclair & Co. at Lerwick. This firm
does not wish, they say, to give out lines, but would prefer that the
women should take out the value at once. They have, however,
been obliged to give lines; and they keep a line-book as a check,
which was produced at the examination of Mr. R. Sinclair. This
he stated to be the second book of the same kind which he had
used since he perfected the system. It is a register of all the lines
issued at the shop, and begins at the top of the first page, thus:
LINE-BOOK
'Line-Book, March 1871.
B.H.
6 £0 2 6 £0 2 6
17 0 3 3 0 3 3
45 0 11 0 0 11 0'
And so on.
M. Sanderson, 7297; R. Sinclair, 2592; J. Sinclair, 3251; R.
Linklater, 2695.]
For several pages at the beginning of the book the numbers are
not consecutive; and it was explained that the unpaid notes in a
previous book had been copied into this book, book, in order to
avoid having to refer to two books in the course of business.
The notation employed consists of the letters of the alphabet, with
a number up to 100. When the single letters were exhausted, that
is, when 2600 lines were issued, the lines were marked AA 1, AA
2, and so on, up to 100; and then AB 1, AB 2, up to 100, and so on
till the latest entry, which was on January 4, 1872, DA 90.
Each of the tickets (which are in this form-'CY 92-Credit
bearer value in goods for 18s. R. Sinclair & Co., J.J.B. 22/12/72')
is marked with the same letters and number the corresponding
entry in this book. When it is returned, goods are given for its
amount, or for part of it,-the payment in the latter case being
sometimes marked on the line which is retained by the knitter.
When the whole amount is paid the line is marked in the line-book
'Paid,' and the date of settlement is generally added, thus:
'B.H.
93 Paid 18/11/71 W.B. £0 1 6 £0 1 6
98 Paid 23/11/71 0 15 0 0 15 0'
The majority of the lines now standing in the early pages of this
book are still unpaid.
Thus, on page 1, out of 29 lines from BAH 6 to BL 34 (199 lines
issued within the same period having presumably been paid before
this new register was begun), only 3 are remarked as paid. So, on
the second page, out of 30 lines, from BL 36 to BO 24, only 4 are
marked paid; and on page 3, from BO 40 to BR 57, only 3 are
marked as paid.
Taking as a specimen the 74 lines issued on the first four days of
December 1871, the average amount of the sums for which they
are granted is 5s. 6d. the actual amounts varying from 31s. 6d. to
1s. Out of these 74, 21 lines, amounting in all to £8, 6s. 2d (and
averaging 7s. 1020/21d), were paid at 4th January. It does not
appear whether the extinction of the lines is always effected by
taking goods to the full amount of the line, or whether part of a
line is not, on the occasion of a purchase of goods, transferred to
a new line, which might very readily be done.
Although Mr. Sinclair has the largest transactions in lines, they
are resorted to when required by most of the merchants who buy
hosiery or fancy goods.
[J. Anderson, 6709; L. Moncrieff, 11,497.]
A few other merchants employ the same system of lines and a
line-book on a smaller scale; and they, too, ascribe the practice to
their solicitude for the convenience of the knitters. The merchants
of course have the benefit of getting their hosiery, to some extent,
on credit; they have the use of the money without interest so long
as it remains in their hands; and when they pay, they pay in goods
on which they have a large profit.
[T. Nicholson, 35; M. Laurenson, 7299.]
SALE OR BARTER OF LINES
It is natural to suppose that documents of this kind should come to
be used as a sort of currency, in a district where money is so scarce
as Shetland. This custom is not so wide-spread as might have
been expected; but that lines are frequently transferred by the
original holder, is clearly enough proved. The merchants who
issue them are chary of admitting that such transfers are made, and
some even seem to think it necessary to take precautions against
such a proceeding. That the practice exists appears from the
evidence of Mr. Sinclair's chief shopman, who admits that he has
heard a 'vague report' that the lines have been exchanged; and
when asked to explain the entry 'To lines' occurring in accounts in
the journal or work-book, says:
'... Sometimes the party that the account belongs to will have to
pay another party so much, and she gives us instructions to mark
a line for a certain amount in the book, and then give her that line
to give to the other party, who comes back with it and gets the
amount in goods.'
'3383. Then the line is granted to your knitters for the purpose of
paying their debt to another?-Yes.'
'3384. Is that frequently done?-Not very often. It has happened
occasionally.'
[J.J. Bruce, 3355; R. Sinclair, 2581, 2591, 3617.]
The evidence of the knitters themselves proves that the practice
of selling or exchanging these lines is quite usual and well-known
among the more necessitous of them, <i.e.> those who have no
means of living but knitting. One respectable merchant in Lerwick
gave up the practice of issuing lines, on account of the trouble and
annoyance occasioned by this practice.
[E. Robertson, 248; M. Hutchison, 1592; E. Moodie, 1879; W.
Johnstone, 2880; J. Henderson, 11,637, 2897; W. Johnston, 2875.]
WORK-BOOKS FOR KNITTERS EMPLOYED BY MERCHANTS
The accounts of women who knit with the merchant's wool are
kept in a 'work-book.' Settlements are made from time to time,
more frequently than in the case of fishermen's accounts; and the
women, though they seldom have a balance in their favour, are
seldom allowed to take a larger amount in goods than is owing
to them for work. I examined a number of work-books, and
among others that of R. Sinclair & Co., which may be taken as a
specimen. Each knitter has an account current with the firm, the
debit side of which contains the amount of the goods and worsted
furnished, the credit side the amount of articles of hosiery
returned, and the sum allowed for each. The book seems to be
well enough kept, and each account bears to be balanced from
time to time. No signature is attached to the balance. The entries
of tea are numerous, frequently more than one parcel being given
in one day. Those of cash paid are very rare; in many accounts
there are none. To Catharine M'Courtenay, who has numerous
dealings, amounting to above £5 in eleven months, there are three
payments of cash, of 31/2d. and 3d. each, on December 1st, 9th, and
19th, 1871. Mr. Sinclair pointed out the case of Marion Sinclair
and sisters (who are tenants of his own at a rent of 17s. 6d. a
quarter, which is entered on the debit side of the account), as one
in which cash had been paid. The amount of the account from
January 16, 1871, when there is a balance against her of £1, 5s.
41/2d. is nearly £10 and the amount of cash paid is 9s. 9d., of which
1s. 3d. is entered 'Cash for dressing. On the other hand, looking
through the book, I found one payment of 10s. in cash to Mrs.
Irvine, Scalloway, and of 5s. to another, while one woman
from Troswick is credited with a payment of 5s. in cash. Other
payments in cash, on one side or the other, occur, but they are rare
and of small amount.
[A. Laurenson, 2216; R. Sinclair, 2378, 2462; R. Anderson, 3069.]
PASS-BOOKS
Sometimes, but not in the majority of cases, knitters have
pass-books. The neglect to have them is no doubt due to the
same reluctance to undertake unnecessary trouble on the one
side, and carelessness or trustfulness on the other side, which
make pass-books so rare among fishermen.
[R. Sinclair, 2383, 2455; B. Johnston, 385; Janet Exter, 4099; E.
Robertson, 232; see above p. 24.
(fishermen).; Mrs. Nicholson, 3504; M. Jamieson, 14,045.]
The tone in which the knitters themselves speak of the custom
of the trade varies considerably. In general, they declare their
decided preference for payment in cash; and many came forward
voluntarily to complain of the present custom. Some have felt
it for years back to be a grievance, and have been in the habit
of complaining of it to those from whom they could look for
sympathy or assistance; while all try to sell their productions for
money rather than goods, if they can get as high a nominal price.
They manage to sell many articles to strangers who visit the
country in summer, to ladies who have made a practice of getting
them sold to friends from charitable motives, and to women in
Lerwick who act as agents for merchants in the south.
[C. Winwick, 53; J. Irvine, 82; M. Hutchison, 1564; M. Clunas.]
It is stated that there are two prices for knitted articles, a price in
goods and a cash price; but the impression among many of the
people is, that it is better to take the high price in goods than the
lower price in money This is described by Mr Sinclair:
'2609. Have you ever stated to the knitters, who were coming to
sell to you, that they had better take ready money and take less of
it?-I have. It would save us a very great deal of bother if they
would do so.'
'2610. What have they said to that proposal?- They have never
entered heartily into it. There was a case I may refer to, not of
women employed to knit for us, but of women from whom we
bought shawls over the counter, which corroborates what I have
already said on that subject. I cannot now recall the names of the
parties, but I would know their faces at once.'
'2611. Were they women from Dunrossness?-Yes. Three girls
came into my shop, each of them having a shawl to sell, worth £1.
At that time the noise had come up about cash payments, and I
said to them, "Now, what would you take for these in money? I
am not saying that I will give you money, but what would you take
for them in money?" One of them said, "I ken you will just be
going to give us money." I said "Why? Don't you think the goods
you get cost us money?" She said, "I ken that fine. I will give my
20s. shawl for 18s. 6d." I said, "I could not give her 18s. 6d. for it,
and asked her if she would take 17s." She said, "No," and that it
would be most unconscionable to take 3s. off the price of a shawl.
I said, "I don't think it, because when I sell the shawl again, I can
only get 20s. for it, and then there is a discount of 5 per cent. taken
off."
'2612. I suppose that bit of trading came to nothing: they did not
take money?-No; they did not take money; but another one said,
"I would not sell my shawl for 18s. 6d. or 19s. either, for I see a
plaid in your shop that I want for my shawl; and what good would
it do me to sell you the shawl for 17s., and then take 3s. out of my
pocket to pay you in addition, when you are willing to give me the
plaid in exchange for the shawl?" That was her answer to me.'
[A. Laurenson, 2168; R. Sinclair, 2397; R. Linklater, 2726; H.
Linklater, 2920 (contra).]
Mr. Morgan Laurenson says:
'7306. In that case, is a lower price given in cash than would have
been given in goods?-Yes, because in ordinary transactions I
have a profit only on the goods sold. I may state, however, that
the women are unwilling to take cash. I remember that on one
occasion, when I was changing from one place of business to
another, I had no goods, and I offered the knitters cash for their
hosiery, at such a price as would give me a reasonable profit, but
they objected to take it. For instance, in the case of gentlemen's
undershirts, the usual price given may be from 4s. to 4s. 6d. I have
offered to give them in the one case 3s. 8d., and in the other 4s. in
cash, but they have invariably refused. They would rather leave it,
and get such goods as they wanted, than take a lower price in cash;
and that has got to be the rule. They are very fond of getting the
highest nominal value; and I can show from my books that, as a
rule, I give the full price for each article which we charge in
selling them, and have only a profit on the goods we give in
exchange.'
Some knitters say that the price is low enough, even if it were paid
in cash, and conclude, perhaps illogically, that they are therefore
better to take the goods.
[Joan Ogilvy, 9752; M. Jamieson, 14,052.]
SALE OF GOODS GOT FOR KNITTING
With many women money is a necessity for payment of rent,
purchase of provisions, and other purposes. Cotton goods, tea,
and shoes, which are almost the only things they can get for their
knitting, are not enough to keep life in them. Those who depend
entirely on their own labour have therefore to find some other
means of providing themselves with these necessaries; and it is
chiefly by them that the complaints of the present system are
made. Some work out-of-doors for part of the year, <e.g.> in
fish-curing or farm-work. In many cases they have sold the
goods obtained at the shop, or bartered them with neighbours, for
potatoes or meal. This practice cannot be described as universal,
because the greater number of knitters live with parents, or have
some supplementary occupation by which they get money. But
still the practice is proved to have been so common that the
ignorance which many witnesses profess with regard to its
existence is surprising. Tea especially is a sort of currency with
which knitters obtain supplies of provisions. Even if there were
not direct testimony to this effect, it would be a fair inference from
the large quantities of tea which the pass-books and merchants'
books show that they get. Thus, in one account, more than a half
of the total amount consists of 1/4lb. packages of tea.
[J. Irvine, 120; B. Johnston, 401; M. Clunas, 3466; R. Henderson,
1295; M. Jamieson, 14,053; Dr Cowie, 14,709; J. Coutts, 15,336;
R. Irvine, 15,748; M. Quin, 16,657; C. Sutherland, 16,660; C.
Borthwick, 1627; 1645; Mrs. Nicholson, 3516; Mary Coutts,
11,601, Agnes Tait, 11,758; E. Russell, 11,583; E. Moncrieff,
11,474; Janet Exter, 4112; C. Nicholson, 11,997; M. Tulloch,
1487; Jane Sandison, 4151; A. Johnstone, 4226; R. Sinclair, 2436;
J. Anderson, 6696; C. Greig, 11,559; M. Jamieson, 14,058; I.
Henderson, 11,656, 11,663.
Cotton and drapery goods are also sold or exchanged by knitters in
order to get provisions or wool, and sometimes at a considerable
loss. Thus Isabella Henderson says she had to give goods which
cost 6s. 6d. for 5s. worth of meal. Women at Scalloway stated that
they had frequently hawked the goods given them for knitting
through the country for meal and potatoes. Mary Coutts says:
'11,601. How do you get your provisions, such as meal and
potatoes?-We give tea to the farmers, and get meal and potatoes
for it. We have sometimes to go to the west side, to Walls and
Sandness, for that. Our aunt, Elizabeth Coutts, has done that for
us. She has not been to Walls and Sandness for the last two years,
but she went regularly before. It was only for our own house, not
for other people, that she took the tea there and got the meal and
potatoes in exchange.'
'11,602. During the last two years how have you got your meal and
provisions?-We have knitted for Mr. Moncrieff last year.'
'11,603. And therefore you did not need to barter your tea?-No.'
'11,604. Did you get the full price for your tea from the
armers?-I suppose we did sometimes, but I could not say.
They did not weigh out the meal and potatoes which they gave
in exchange; they merely gave a little for the tea which my aunt
gave them. I have known her go as far as Papa Stour, twenty-four
miles away, to make these exchanges. That was where most of her
friends were.'
'11,605. Have you often had to barter your goods for less than they
were worth?-Sometimes, if there had been 21/2 yards of cotton
lying and a peck of meal came in, we would give it for the meal.
The cotton would be worth 6d. a yard, or 15d.; and the meal
would be worth 1s. I remember doing that about three years ago;
but we frequently sold the goods for less than they had cost us in
Lerwick.'
MERCHANT'S PROFIT ON HOSIERY
One of the peculiarities of the hosiery trade, as described in the
evidence of the merchants, is that they have no profit on the
hosiery and fancy articles, which they invoice to merchants in the
south at prices either the same as the prices paid for them in goods,
or so little higher as only to cover the risk and loss upon damaged
articles and job lots. They say that the only exception to this is in
the case of fine fancy work, which is often bought for cash, and in
selling which they can readily obtain a sufficient profit. There is
a good deal of evidence about this which rather tends to show
that although dealers in Shetland invoice their goods to trade
purchasers in London, Edinburgh, and elsewhere, at such prices as
are, upon the whole of their sales, sufficient to keep them free
from loss and allow a profit, yet that profit is very small, being at
most a small commission for the trouble of getting the goods
disposed of; and that they have a much less, but still considerable,
trade with private purchasers, in which they realize considerable
profit. The inquiry into traders' profits was not prosecuted in a
more searching way, by examining themselves and their knitters
at length upon invoices and specimens of goods, because the
sufficiently intrusive inquiry which was made, and which stands in
various parts of the printed evidence, seemed clearly enough to
show that the truth as to this collateral question is as I have stated
it.
[A. Laurenson, 2199, 2264; R. Sinclair, 2525, 3246, etc.; R.
Linklater, 2728; J. Tulloch, 2795, etc.; W. Johnston, 2844; T.
Nicholson, 3584; M. Laurenson, 7517.]
MERCHANTS PRICES FOR GOODS
But while the merchants assert that they have no direct profit
upon their sales of knitted goods, or at least none but the smallest,
they do not deny that, in order to repay themselves for the trouble
and risk involved in the two transactions upon which this profit is
realized, they charge considerably more for their tea and drapery
goods than the ordinary retail price in other districts. In other
words, although there is nominally no profit upon the knitted
goods, there is a double profit, or a very large profit, on the
drapery goods, tea, etc., bartered for it. If, therefore, we calculate
what the price of these goods should be at the ordinary retail rate,
and deduct the surplus from the nominal price of the knitted
articles, we find that the usual percentage of profit is obtained
on the latter as well as on the tea and drapery.
TWO PRICES FOR GOODS
In some places, indeed, there are two prices for goods,
according as they are paid for with hosiery or with money; and
formerly this was the custom in Lerwick. Mr. R. Sinclair says:
'2574. Then I understand you to say that in every bargain with a
knitter, and generally with a seller, of a shawl, the understanding
is that they are to take the price in goods?-Yes; that has been so
time out of mind. I remember a time, about forty years ago, when
it was different, and when there were two prices on the goods
which they sold.'
'2575. There were two prices then-one for cash, and the other for
goods?-Yes; perhaps from 20 to 30 per cent. of difference. I
remember hearing that question discussed at my father's fire when
I was a mere youth. I have been told, although I do not know it
myself, because I was not in the trade then, that a woman may
have bought a piece of goods for 16d., when a party paying cash
for it only paid 1s. The more intelligent of the natives thought that
was an iniquitous thing; but then it was always known and done
avowedly, and the people yielded to it. They said it was not
possible for them to take barter, and sell their goods at the same
rate, because there was so much risk and outlay. That reason
never appeared satisfactory to me; and it was not until I came
behind the scenes, as it were, that I saw the reason for it was that
the value given for Shetland goods was far beyond what it really
was worth in the market. Its real value in the market was about
the same amount less than what was charged as an addition upon
the goods. What I mean is, that, supposing a woman came in with
a pair of stockings, the real market price of which was 2s., but for
which she wished 2s. 6d., the merchant, in order to secure a sale
for his goods, would give her goods in exchange of the nominal
value of 2s. 6d., but he would put 3d. a yard on the price of the
goods which he gave in exchange. That explains how it is that
a person knowing the value of the articles, seeing the purchase
which the woman might have made, and hearing the price of it,
might have said that they were about 25 per cent. too high,
whereas in reality they were not so. She had merely been getting
value for her goods, although she did not know it; and it would
not have made any difference, although it had been as many
pounds higher, while the relative proportions were kept up
between the value of the two articles.'
'2576. Is that done now?-Not that I know of.'
A discount for cash is still given there by some (or all?) of the
merchants; but it has not been shown, nor I think alleged, with
regard to Lerwick, that the principal merchants now avowedly
sell their goods at different prices for cash and for hosiery. There
are, however, passages in their evidence which create a strong
impression that the custom described by Mr. Sinclair as a thing of
the past is not yet entirely obsolete, even in the capital. Thus Mr.
Sinclair himself has now two drapery shops in Lerwick, in one of
which no hosiery is bought at all, all the dealings being for cash.
He admits that in some things, <e.g.> calicoes, there is 'a very
small shade of difference' between the prices there and in his other
shop, which is his principal one. Mr. Johnstone's reason for
ceasing to issue lines was simply that people used to come to his
shop and bargain for articles as for cash, and end by presenting one
of his 'lines' in payment, which would not have been felt as a
grievance if the principle of having only one price were rigidly
adhered to. The evidence as to the general prices at the shops
which take in knitted articles also leads to the conclusion that,
although articles are nominally for sale at one price, a purchaser
for cash often succeeds in getting a reduction if she is a shrewd
bargainer. The shopkeeper classifies some articles as 'money
articles,' which is a convenient reason for not giving them in
exchange for hosiery; and the impression seemed to exist in the
minds of some keen purchasers examined as witnesses, that goods
are sometimes rather rapidly transferred into that category, when it
is unexpectedly discovered, after the negotiations have reached a
certain point, that the intention is to pay for them otherwise than in
cash.
[T. Nicholson, 3586; R. Sinclair, 3229; W. Johnstone, 2280; Mrs.
Nicholson, 3510; L. Leslie, 5093.]
In the rural districts, the custom of selling goods at two prices,
according as the payment is in money, or in knitted articles or
yarn, still prevails. By Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., it has been
given up quite lately.
[P. Blanch, 8578; G. Scollay, 8639; J. S. Houston, 9715; Rev. J.
Fraser, 8039.]
There is no doubt that the general prices of tea and drapery
goods are higher where hosiery is dealt in. It may be that a cash
purchaser gets a reduction occasionally, or always if it is asked for.
But there is a general concurrence of testimony to the effect that
goods got by knitters at the hosiery shops are dearer than at other
shops in Shetland. Various merchants admit that a higher profit
is charged, in consequence of the custom of paying in hosiery.
Two respectable shopkeepers in the country say that the goods
which knitters have bartered at their shops for provisions were
said to have been got at higher nominal prices than those charged
for the same things by them. And various witnesses state, as the
result of their experience, that prices at hosiery shops are higher
than at others, and that they would get more goods for cash at the
ready-money shops than for the same nominal amount in hosiery,
where that is rather bought. Mrs. Nicholson, a very intelligent
witness, says:
'3509. Are there drapery shops now in Lerwick that do not deal in
hosiery?-Yes.'
'3510. And is it the case that you can purchase the same goods at
those shops at a lower price than you can at shops where the
hosiery business is carried on?-Yes; I know that from experience,
because I have the money in my hand, and I can go and purchase
them cheaper elsewhere than I can do at some of these shops. I
don't say at them all; but I know there are some of the drapery
shops in Lerwick where they could be got cheaper. I will give a
case of that. Last summer I had to buy a woollen shirt, and I went
into a shop and saw a piece that I thought would do. The merchant
brought it down and said it was 1s. 8d. a yard. Another merchant
had charged me 1s. 6d. for something of the same kind, and I told
this merchant that the thing was too dear. He said, "I will give it
to you for 1s. 6d. a yard;" and I said, "Well, I will give you 4s. 6d.
for 31/4 yards of it;" and he gave it me. A day or two afterwards a
woman came into my house and saw the goods, and said, "That is
the same as I have bought; what did you pay for that?" I said I had
paid money,-because it is an understanding that some shops can
give it for less with money than with hosiery. I told her I paid 4s.
6d. for 31/4 yards; and she then told me that she had paid 2s. of
hosiery for a yard of it-6s. for 3, or 6s. 6d. for 31/4 yards-just the
quantity required.'
'3511. Have you any objection to give me the name of the woman
and the names of the shops?-I could give the names, but I would
prefer to do so privately. The stuff I bought is still in existence,
and also what she bought, and they could be compared, to show
that they are of the same quality. I did not do that with any
intention of finding out the difference in prices; it just occurred
accidentally, and I only give it as an instance, to prove that if we
could get money for our hosiery goods it would be far better for
us."
[A. Laurenson, 2206, 2245; W. Johnston, 2869; Contra-R.
Sinclair, 2523 sq.; C. Nicholson, 12,004; R. Henderson, 12,916;
A. Johnstone, 4215; J. Halcrow, 4174 sqq.]
The evidence of Mr. Morgan Laurenson, quoted above, may
be referred to. Mr. Laurenson says he gets no profit on hosiery,
except the profit on the goods he gets in exchange. What the
amount of that profit is, has been shown in dealing of prices.
[above p. 35]
SHETLAND YARN
The trade in the raw material of the knitting trade presents some
features of interest. Some women stated that they could not get
worsted from the merchants in exchange for their work-wool
and worsted being called by them 'money articles.' Further
inquiry showed that this was uniformly true only with regard to the
true Shetland yarn, which the shopkeepers can with great difficulty
get in sufficient quantity for their own purposes and for which,
even if they could keep it for sale, the people would give only the
price for which they can get it from their neighbours, <i.e.> the
same price at which the shopkeepers have bought it. Even when
sold for money, it is given as a favour, or, at least, the transaction
is out of the usual course. But even the Yorkshire or Scotch yarn
cannot always be got from the shops in exchange for knitted work.
Of course, both kinds are given out to knitters working on the
employment of the merchant. Shetland yarn and wool may be
bought occasionally in small quantities at the shops of grocers
and provision-dealers, who have got it from country people in
exchange for meal and goods.
[J. Irvine, 115; C. Williamson, 152; C. Petrie, 1423, 1430; B.
Johnston, 449; A. Laurenson, 2288; R. Sinclair, 2465; R.
Anderson, 3179; W. Johnston, 2897; J. Tulloch, 2781; R.
Linklater, 2752, 2765; A. Laurenson, 2304; Mrs Nicholson, 3530.]
The merchants, who give out both kinds of worsted to be
knitted for them, generally purchase only articles made of real
Shetland wool.
[C. Greig, 11,551.]
SPINNING.
In the country, the knitters or the older women in their families
commonly spin their own wool; or if, as in Lerwick and Scalloway
is generally the case, they have not sheep, they spin wool bought
from neighbours or at the shops just mentioned, and knit the yarn
so manufactured. For instance, a witness says that she barters tea
or a parcel of goods for a small quantity of wool, which she spins
herself, having no money to buy worsted-money article-or to
put the wool to the spinner because that would require money too;
or at times she may get a little wool in exchange for a days work,
'but it is not often we can get that.'
[C. Greig, 11,532, 11,547; E. Russell, 11,572; M. Coutts, 11,617;
Joan Fordyce, 16,049; P.M. Sandison, 5192; M. Jamieson, 14,053;
G.C. Petrie, 1425.]
Exceedingly high prices are sometimes given for the finest
qualities of Shetland worsted. It is sold by the cut, which is
nominally 100 threads. The weight of the worsted is of course
less in proportion to the fineness of its quality, and 7d. per cut
being where the price of the finest quality, which is rare, the price
per lb. reaches £4, or even £7. Ordinary yarn for fancy work is 3d.
to 4d. per cut, or 24s. to 40s. per lb.
[A. Sandison, 10,186.]
GENERAL OBSERVATIONS.
As I have not had the advantage of considering, in conjunction
with a colleague, the questions suggested by the facts now
detailed, I do not make definite and detailed recommendations.
These are indeed questions of policy, which it is for a Government
rather than a Commissioner to decide. But the duty committed to
me will not be discharged without an attempt to show what is the
general result of the inquiry, what are the questions presenting
themselves, and how these questions are viewed by some of the
witnesses who have intimate personal concern with them.
MODES IN WHICH WAGES ARE PAID
The system of barter which has been described does not extend to
any trades or handicrafts in which wages are paid to the workmen
or workwomen, with three exceptions, viz.: (1) the knitters who
knit the merchants' yarn; (2) the persons employed in curing fish,
boatbuilding, and some miscellaneous employments connected for
the most part with fishing; and (3) the kelp-gatherers. The days'
wages also of fishermen occasionally employed by proprietors or
merchants in agricultural work are sometimes carried into their
accounts. If it be assumed that legislation for the prevention of
truck is expedient, there can be little difficulty in applying to these
three classes any Act of Parliament that may be passed for that
end. And on the same assumption, there is as much reason for
protecting the persons engaged in these trades from being
compelled, by their own misfortune, weakness, or improvidence,
to take payment of their wages, or part of them, in goods, as for
giving such protection to workmen in other parts of the empire.
APPLICATION OF STATUTES
It has already been mentioned that one branch of the knitting of
Shetland goods probably falls under the existing Truck Act,
1 and 2 Will. iv. c. 37. It rather seems, however, that such
knitting will not be one of the trades to which the bill now before
Parliament applies. It seems also doubtful whether the application
clause of the bill will extend, as it now stands, to all the branches
of fish-curing, or to the manufacture of kelp. See 33 and 34 Vict.
c. 62, sch. 2; 34 and 35 Vict. c. 4.
BARTER OF EGGS ETC.
It will hardly be contended that in the system of bartering eggs or
butter for goods, which prevails in Shetland, delivery being made
on both sides at the time when the bargain is made, and the
transaction being thus finished at once,-there are evils similar to
those which legislation against truck is intended to remedy, or at
least that the law ought to prevent buyers and sellers in such cases
from making any contracts they please. This custom, which was
or is not uncommon in other remote rural districts, will probably
disappear of itself as the islands are brought into more frequent
and intimate relations with the rest of the world.
BARTER OF KNITTED ARTICLES
The same might be said with regard to the barter of knitted
articles for tea and drapery, where the knitter is in no sense
employed or engaged to manufacture the raw material provided by
the merchant. Here, however, the element of credit or accounting
is often introduced; and it is a question whether, so far as it is so,
this handicraft ought not to be ruled by the same considerations as
the fishing trade. The evils arising from long accounts in this trade
and in fishing seem to point to the necessity of extending to these
cases the prohibition of set-off contained in §5 of the existing
Act and in §10 of the Bill now before Parliament. Another
uggestion is, that a short prescription for such accounts should
be introduced-say a prescription of three months, running from
the date of the earliest item in the account, and accompanied by a
provision that no acknowledgment shall bar prescription unless it
be contained in a holograph or probative writing.
CASES IN WHICH LABOUR IS PAID BY A SHARE OF THE PROFITS
In the ling fishing the fisherman may be regarded, if we speak
technically, as a vendor to the merchant. Practically he is a
partner, for the price of his wet fish is in proportion to the
proceeds of the merchant's sales of the cured fish. In the Faroe
fishing the fisherman is more distinctly and formally a partner,
for the agreement signed by the merchant and the crew entitles
him to a share of one-half of the net proceeds of the fishing. The
question to be answered is, whether the principle of the Truck
Acts extends to these two occupations, so as to justify the State
in laying down such rules as shall prevent the fisherman in either
case from taking part of his earnings, although they are not wages,
otherwise than in current coin; and if that be so, what practical
difficulties stand in the way of applying the principle. It is
difficult to read the evidence without arriving at the conclusion,
that if it is right to protect the skilled artisans of Sheffield and
Birmingham, and the highly paid miners of Lanarkshire and
South Wales, from receiving their wages in goods, it is also right
to require the fish-curer of Shetland to give money instead of
goods to his fishermen. By whatever name we may call the
earnings of the latter, there is not such a difference in the positions
of the two classes as to justify us in applying to them different
rules of law. Both are labouring men; for the Shetlander's
possession of a small allotment of third-rate land does not elevate
above the condition of a peasant.
If we apply to the Shetlander the legal distinctions which occur
in the existing law, he differs but little from some of the protected
crafts in England. He engages to fish the curer, and to give him
the produce of his labour at the current price, just as a collier
contracts to put out coal at a certain rate per ton. If the law is to
protect from truck the man who agrees to be paid not directly for
his labour, but for the result of his labour, the Shetland ling fisher
may be held to fall within that principle. There is, indeed, this
distinction, that his remuneration depends on the price eventually
obtained for the produce of his labour, so that he takes the risk of
the market. The amount of his earnings is affected both by his
success in catching fish and by the fluctuations of the market. The
collier, on the other hand, works for wages fixed at a certain rate,
and the only element of uncertainty is the quantity of his out-put.
The fisherman certainly works upon the co-operative principle at
present; and in considering any legislative change, it may be
desirable to avoid interfering with this principle of the present
system, and unintentionally leading to the substitution of fixed
wages.
ARGUMENTS AGAINST LEGISLATIVE INTERFERENCE TO ENFORCE
SHORT PAYMENTS
It is maintained on various grounds that the provisions
suggested for the prevention of truck in other trades cannot
be advantageously applied to fishing. Most of the merchants
are averse to short pays, and I cannot say that the fishermen
themselves are in general desirous to have them introduced.
I endeavoured to ascertain from the witnesses examined
whether there is any insuperable obstacle to the introduction
of ready-money payments for fish.
The objections may be reduced, to two classes:-
SHORT PAYMENTS 'IMPRACTICABLE'.
1. That payment of the fish on delivery would be 'impracticable;'
which is explained to mean, (1) that it would necessitate the
employment of more highly paid factors at the stations, and the
conveyance of considerable sums of money for distances of many
miles, there being no banks in Shetland except at Lerwick; and (2)
that the settlement with the men would take up a long time and
detain them from the prosecution of the fishing, which, during the
summer months, requires incessant activity.
On the other hand, it may be said that every cargo of fish is now
received at the station by a factor employed by the curer, who
weighs the fish and enters the weight of each kind in his fish-book.
If the price of the fish were fixed, there could be no difficulty in
ascertaining the money share of each man in a particular haul, or
in the catch of a week or a fortnight, as is done in Fife and in some
of the Wick fisheries; and the factor might either pay it in cash or
give an order, which the fisherman or one of his family could cash
at the merchant's counting-house. If the price were left to be
fixed at the end of the season, the law might require payment of a
proportion of the estimated price, as it does now in the case of the
Northern whale fishery.
The argument, that the settlement would take up an intolerable
time, and prevent crews from getting to sea in favourable weather,
is sometimes fortified by the assertion that the people of Shetland
are singularly defective in arithmetic. Even if we assume this
statement to be correct, there is so little intricacy in a calculation
of the price of 18 cwt. of fish at 6s. 6d. per cwt., and dividing the
sum among five or six men, that a very low arithmetical faculty
would not be severely taxed in checking it. There is little doubt
that in stating this objection, which scarcely deserves refutation,
the simple settlement at landing a cargo of fish, or at paying cash
for a week's fishing, is confounded with the very different kind of
settlement to which the witnesses are accustomed at present, and
in which all the transactions of a year in fish, cattle, meal, tea,
clothing, soap, fishing lines, and a hundred other things, have to
be gone over in detail, and checked generally, on one side at least,
from memory.
SHORT PAYS 'NOT ADVANTAGEOUS TO FISHERMEN'
2. It is maintained that a system of short payments in cash
would not be advantageous to the fishermen, because, in the first
place, their improvident habits would lead them to spend their
receipts at once, so that at the end of the year they would have
nothing left with which to pay their rents, and no means of living
in the spring, when the meal from their crofts is exhausted; and,
in the second place, because it is inconsistent with their being
paid according to the price actually realized for the fish, which is
commonly higher than the 'beach price' during the season, or the
market price at the time when agreements for the summer fishing
are made.
The first of these reasons is felt and stated by some of the
fishermen themselves. But are Shetland fishermen more
improvident than other people similarly situated would be?
Under the present system of credit transactions, indeed, it would
be strange if a part of them were not careless and extravagant,
and it would not be strange if a great majority were hopelessly
improvident and insolvent. No man is more likely to waste his
means than he who never knows how much he has to spend; and
this general truth is not likely to fail in its application to men
following a precarious calling in which there are great runs of
luck, and who have been brought up from their earliest years to
expect their employers to supply their pressing wants in times of
adversity. But the objectors themselves assert, and there is no
reason to doubt, that a very considerable proportion of the people
have saved money in spite of the influences under which they
live, and have, for their rank in life, large deposits in the banks.
If many of them are careless and improvident, that is a reason,
not for continuing, but for altering a system which is admirably
conceived for promoting extravagance and recklessness about
money. If some Shetlanders are improvident, it is the system
which has made them so; and if it be a fact that so many have
saved money, it proves that under a better system the people of
Shetland would compare favourably with those of any other
district in frugality and foresight. If the fisherman had his money
in his hand, it is not likely that he would forget rent day and the
time of short supplies which he has often to pass through in spring.
[R. Halcrow, 4700; R. Malcolmson, 4781; P.M. Sandison, 5227;
G. Gilbertson, 9578; J. Hay, 5375; P. Blanch, 8565; C. Young,
5815, 5918.]
It is said that in bad years, when the crops or the fishing, or both,
have failed, the population would starve in winter and spring if the
merchants were not to make advances of meal and provisions; and
that they could not do this, but for the security afforded by having
the men engaged to fish to them for a price to be settled only at a
distant day. Even if supplies of food are not required, men may be
unable to go to the fishing for want of boats, lines, and hooks,
which they have to get from the curer, and which, it is contended,
may properly form a first charge against the proceeds of the
enterprise. Fishing is always most productive when the men are
paid by shares, not by wages; and it is not desirable to introduce
any change which would necessitate the payment of the men by
wages.
[W. Irvine, 3896; T. Gifford, 8150; H. Hughson, 9599; W. Irvine,
3834; A. Sandison, 10,007; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,605.]
It may be replied, that however true this may be, it just
presents one of those cases in which the weaker party is likely
to be led into a disadvantageous bargain, and in which, upon
recognised principles, the law may interfere for his protection,
by regulating the bargain so made, or by teaching him how to
escape from the position of disadvantage. The transition to a
new state of things might in bad seasons be attended with some
difficulties and hardships, especially to those who are now
indebted. Thus Mr. A. Sandison, in recommending a system of
monthly payments, says, 'I think it would pauperize a number of
the fishermen, because there are a great number of them in debt,
and in the transition from the one system to the other they would
require to pay up their debts, so far as their means would go' (Q.
10,015).* One cannot avoid observing that this class of objectors
to cash payments exaggerate both the inability of the people to
provide against the evil future, and the value of the 'merchants' as
a source of credit in bad times. It is impossible to judge of the
energy that would be exerted under the stimulus of necessity by
a population which has always had landlords, tacksmen, and
merchants to depend on in adversity. Those who urge that the
men could not live, or at least could not go to fish, unless the
merchants were there to supply their wants, forget that, while the
existing system presents one ready source of credit to fishermen, it
closes up all others. The fish-merchants, by getting delivery of
their debtors' fish, have such a security for their accounts, that
other shopkeepers do not now venture to furnish any but the
smallest quantity of goods to the average fisherman on credit.
But if there was some certainty that the fish-merchant had not a
contra account against the fisherman, at least equal to the price of
his fish, other merchants would not have the same reason, in cases
of necessity, for refusing to give some credit to deserving men.
This is shown by the fact-certainly an exceptional one-that a
most successful business has been established in Dunrossness by
Mr. Gavin Henderson, in a district where the tenants are strictly
bound, and that he has been in the habit of giving credit to
considerable amounts to fishermen bound to other merchants.
And other cases of credit sales by others than the fish-merchant
are recorded. The extension of credit dealings with smaller
shopkeepers is, however, strongly deprecated by Mr. Spence and
Mr. Sandison, partners of the firm of Spence & Co. It is enough to
remark, that such credits would be subject to the ordinary rules of
the law; and that if they were found to be injurious, it would for
the Legislature to consider whether the rule of the Arrestment of
Wages (Scotland) Act 1871, or a short prescription, should not be
extended to them.
*'10,016. Do you think the fishermen under that new system
would not be able to get credit to a certain extent?-I don't see
how some of them could. For instance, take the year 1869. In
1868 the fishings were almost a failure. Our total catch in Unst
and Yell amounted to £1607, which could not average much over
£4, 10s. to each fisherman. That year we imported meal and flour
to the amount of £1824, cost price per invoice; we paid in cash
for rents to Major Cameron, Mr. Edmonstone, Lord Zetland, and
others, £1600; and we expended on fishing-boats and fish-curing
materials £780,-being a gross amount of outlay of £4223 against
the fishing, the return for which, as said, was only £1607.'
[R. Henderson, 12,855; M. Laurenson, 7342; D. Edmonstone,
10,658; J. Thomson, 11,711; L. Moncrieff, 11,518; G. Georgeson,
12,032, 12,118; J. Twatt, 12,186; J. Spence, 10,559; A. Sandison,
p. 248, f.n. 10, 494.]
It may be contended that a law which would restrict the freedom
of fishermen to contract for payment in proportion to the profits
realized on their fish, would be inexpedient; but it is not
impossible to frame an enactment which, leaving them this
power, should require payment, weekly or monthly, of such a
proportion of their earnings as would obviate the necessity of
living on credit.
OPINION OF MR SANDISON IN FAVOUR OF SHORT PAYMENTS
It is satisfactory to find one of the most enterprising and
intelligent merchants in Shetland stating a strong opinion in
favour of a system of monthly payments for fish. Mr. Sandison's
evidence on this subject, with which the other members of his firm
agree is as follows:-
'10,006. Do you think it would be possible to introduce any
system by which the settlement should not be made at such long
intervals?-I have considered the matter seriously since the Truck
Commission was first spoken about, and I have come to the settled
conviction that it would be very much better for the curer to pay
monthly in cash.'
'10,007. Would that payment be according to the quantity of fish
delivered, or by way of wages, or partially both?-There are two
reasons why I think wages would not do. In the first place, the
fishermen would not like to take wages, because if they make a
good fishing they would not get so much as they do now; and, in
the second place, I am sorry to say that with the greater part of
them, if they got wages they would not fish half so much.'
'10,008. Then what system would you suggest?-I think the right
system is just to fix a price at the beginning of the year of so much
per cwt. for green fish, and pay it monthly or fortnightly in cash as
may be agreed upon.'
'10,009. Do you think it likely from your experience that the
fishermen would agree to that?-Two years ago in North Yell,
when I settled with the fishermen there, I urged the men to take
cash payments, because we had no store there, and it was an
inconvenience for us to send goods. We had to employ a man
and pay him, which cost us something. But I found that they all
declined my proposal. In the same year, 1870, I tried to engage
our fishermen in the south of Unst and in Yell at a fixed price, and
I did so. Every fisherman who went out in the south end of Unst
and Yell that year was engaged at 7s. per cwt. I made that bargain
in December in writing; but when settling time came we could
afford to pay them 7s. 3d., and I did so, according to the previous
practice. I might have pocketed £30 by that transaction; but if I
had done so, the fishermen would have thought I had treated them
dishonestly.'
'10,010. Were they going to grumble?-I have no doubt some of
them would have grumbled if they had not got the additional price.
I would not say that all of them would have grumbled, because
there are some of our fishermen who are very intelligent and very
reasonable men, and who would have understood the thing, and
said that a bargain was a bargain.'
GENERAL INQUIRIES AS TO FISHERIES IN OTHER PLACES
I have thus endeavoured to state some of the general
considerations on both sides of the question as to the possibility
and expediency of introducing, by direct or indirect legislative
action, a system of cash payments into the Shetland fisheries. In
such an investigation it is natural to ask how fishing undertakings
are conducted elsewhere, and whether indebtedness and truck are
necessary elements in the condition of all fishermen. In the hope
of obtaining an answer to this question, which might either suggest
a remedy for the case of Shetland, or might show how far local and
exceptional legislation is admissible, I made some very general
inquiry as to the state of fishermen elsewhere in regard to the
mode of paying their earnings. For this purpose some personal
and informal inquiries were made in Orkney and Wick; and at
Edinburgh two of the employees of Mr. Methuen, the most
extensive fish-curer in Scotland, who has stations on almost all
parts of the coast, were examined. The prima facie conclusion
derived from such inquiries is, that where fishermen are not within
easy reach of a fresh market, they are apt to be largely in debt to
the fish-curers. In Orkney, the social state of which formerly
closely resembled Shetland as it now is, a great change has been
effected by the improvement of agriculture. The tenants have to a
large extent abandoned fishing, finding sufficient employment
and adequate support in cultivating their farms. In Orkney the
fish-curers have in general no shops. I was not able to ascertain
whether there is any practice of guarantees, such as is said to exist
at Wick and Stornoway.
[G.S. Sutherland, 16,661 sqq.; D. Davidson, 16,920 sqq.]
COMBINATION OF FISHING AND FARMING
Orkney is referred to as showing the beneficial effect of
separating the occupation of fishing from that of farming. It is
not, however, certain that the immediate separation of fishing
and farming in Shetland is either possible or desirable. It is held
by some of the chief opponents of truck in Shetland that the land
will be most profitably managed under a system of sheep farming,
and that the fisheries also will be most productive if the fishermen
are not dependent for a material part of their subsistence upon
their crofts, but are stimulated by necessity to go to sea during the
greater part of the year. The 'improvements' which have been
begun with the view of effecting this separation on the Garth and
Annsbrae estates, have given rise to much of the indignation
which the introduction the of sheep farming and depopulation
has been wont to excite in similar cases. Nothing but actual
experiment, however, will prove whether cod and ling fishery
can be prosecuted successfully from the coasts of Shetland in
winter. The fishermen here do not, like those of Wick, described
in the paper of Mr. M'Lennan, fish all the year round in modes
adapted to the varying seasons. Almost their only profitable
fishing is in the summer months; and it seems to be certain that
the haaf fishing could not be successfully prosecuted in winter
with the present open boats. These, buoyant and wonderfully safe
and handy as they are, afford no shelter, and cannot in stormy
winter weather keep the sea for any length of time. When a storm
comes on the Shetland fisherman makes for land, although it is in
approaching it that he meets with the dangerous tideways in which
the shipwrecks of his comrades have usually taken place. In
winter and spring these storms are so frequent and so sudden,
that it is impossible for open boats to pursue the haaf fishing
successfully. It is disputed whether larger vessels, such as the
smacks employed in the Faroe fishing, or those of the Grimsby
and Yarmouth men, could carry on the long-line fishing in the
deep water and rocky bottom of the Shetland haul, and the best
authorities say that they could not, because on that fishing ground
the lines cannot be taken in by the boats while sailing. It does not,
however, appear whether recent attempts have been made on a
sufficiently large scale to justify a decision in the negative; and it
is satisfactory to know that a company has been formed for the
express purpose of extending the season of the ling fishing, and
carrying it on without the ordinary connection with a shop.
[Appx. p. 61; C. Williamson, 10,841; L.F.U. Garriock, 12,478,
etc.; C. Williamson, 10,839, 10,794; J. Walker, 15,941, 15,952.]
INQUIRIES AT WICK
At Wick many of the resident fishermen are nothing but
fishermen; but some who fish from Wick in summer have small
farms along the coast, and many of the hired men who are required
for the herring fishing come from Highland districts, where they
combine agricultural and seafaring occupations during the rest of
the year. The paper by Mr. M'Lennan of Wick affords interesting
information with regard to the Wick fisheries. It shows, by the
experience of the haddock fishing and the winter cod fishing,
that payment to crews fishing on shares, or 'on deal' as it is there
called, may easily be made each Saturday night; by that of the
winter herring fishing that payment may be made at landing the
fish, and by that of the Lewis herring fishery, how a settlement in
a very extensive fishing with complicated arrangements is made
immediately at the close of the fishing season.
[Mr M'Lennan, Appendix II; D. Davidson, G.S. Sutherland,
16,806, 16,750.]
At Wick the herring fishing alone is directly affected by the
indebtedness of the fishermen, and in it alone is the settlement
delayed for two months after the close of the season. The amount
of indebtedness existing among the fishermen, and its effects upon
the bargains which they make, is remarkable. In Shetland, as has
been seen, one-third, and in some districts a much less proportion,
of the fishermen is indebted to the curers. There, £20 or £30 is a
very large debt for a fisherman to owe, and such debts make no
disadvantageous distinction between the debtors and other
fishermen in regard to the price paid for the fish. At Wick, on
the contrary, the expense of boats and nets is so great, that debts
of £200 and upwards are not uncommon; and all who owe above
a certain amount are obliged to fish for 20 per cent., or according
to another witness 1s. per cran, less than free men get. These
statements agree with the information I received personally from
a large fish-curer at Wick. Mr. M'Lennan says that 'there is no
such thing as truck; and payment, when payment is owing, is made
in cash.' But it appears both from his paper and from the evidence
of Mr. Sutherland, that at Wick, and in the Hebrides and West
Highlands, the men cannot prosecute the fishing without supplies
being advanced to them. Except, however, as regards boats
and fishing materials, these advances are not made directly by
the curers, who do not keep provision shops but by the local
shopkeepers upon 'lines' or guarantees by the curers. 'It is
tolerable certain,' says Mr. M'Lennan, 'that the curer receives an
abatement or discount from the merchants' prices of meal, goods,
ropes, nets, or other things which the fishermen procure on his
guarantee.' Nothing, indeed, can be more probable; but no inquiry
being made into transactions between curers and fishermen out of
Shetland, except for the purposes of suggestion and comparison, I
am not able to say whether such a system of disguised truck does
in fact prevail.
[G.S. Sutherland, 16,805.]
It seems to be fairly deducible from this evidence, that cash
payments for fish are not impracticable and inexpedient, as some
witnesses have said. The condition of fishermen in Wick and
the West Highlands shows further that Shetland is not, as has
sometimes been thought, a peculiar and exceptional country.
Elsewhere also fishermen have crofts, are poor, and in debt;
require advances for boats, fishing implements, and provisions;
and obtain them from or through the curers to whom they sell their
fish. The evidence given before the Select Committee on the Irish
Sea Fisheries Bill of 1867 shows that the condition of many
fishermen on the Irish coast is worse in regard to indebtedness
than that of any in Shetland.
The question may then be asked, whether a partial and local
remedy should be applied to Shetland, while nothing is done for
the fishermen of other districts; and whether it is expedient to pass
an Act of Parliament for the protection of a particular trade in a
single county, unless it be fully ascertained that its circumstances
are materially different from those of the same trade in the rest of
the empire. It is for Her Majesty's Government to decide whether
it can introduce a measure for the repression of truck, and the
regulation of agreements between fishermen and their employers,
without having information as to the nature of the present relations
between these parties throughout the empire.
There is a good deal to lead to the conclusion, if any general
conclusion may be formed from a local and partial investigation,
that fishermen and fish-curers may fairly be subjected to
regulations analogous to those which the Merchant Shipping Act
lays down for the engagement of seamen. It is also a point worthy
of consideration, whether the prohibition of set-off should not be
extended to all dealings between fishermen and fish-merchants,
with this exception, that the curer or merchant should be at liberty
to retain one third of each week's or month's earnings for payment
of any boats or lines supplied to the fishermen by him or on his
guarantee. The carelessness or incompetence of fishermen in
regard to pass-books and accounts, suggests also the propriety of a
limitation of action upon such accounts to three months, with a
provision that no acknowledgments shall bar prescription unless
holograph, or signed before witnesses.
LAND QUESTION.
I have not thought myself at liberty to enter upon the land
question in Shetland as substantive part of the inquiry; but it is
plain that the prevalence of truck is due in no small degree to the
habit of dependence, or submission, which the faulty relations
between landlords and tenants have fostered. Here, too, however,
it may perhaps be said that legislation ought not to be of a local
and exceptional character. I may at least be permitted to hope
that, in any reform of the land tenancy laws of Scotland, the case
of Shetland will not be forgotten.
The introduction of a class of peasant proprietors seems
impossible, except by some measure resembling the 44th clause
of the Irish Land Act, 1870; while the sudden expulsion of the
present population, and the substitution of sheep, would probably
be destructive to the fishing industries as they now subsist.
But the present insecurity of tenure is not consistent either with
the permanent interests of the land (in which the country still
more than the landlord is concerned), or with the formation or
maintenance of a race of independent and intelligent citizens.
Probably a law of landlord and tenant, passed with no arrière
pensee as to maintaining the authority of the landlord, but with the
honest intention of reconciling the rights and interests with the
independence of both parties to the contract, would not permit the
landlord to evict without cause upon forty days' warning. It may
even be maintained that in the present state of agricultural science,
no tenure for so short a period as one year ought to be permitted.
Farmers of the larger class, however, are or ought to be able to
protect themselves in their bargains with landlords; and as this
Report has nothing to do with such tenant farmers, they may be
left out of the question. But in the case of small fishermen
farmers, it is worthy of consideration whether a warning of at
least one year, excepting cases of insolvency or specified kinds
of misconduct, ought not to be required before eviction from
any agricultural holding below a certain rental; and whether in
such holdings tenants should not have some summary means
of recovering from the landlord or succeeding tenant any
extraordinary expenditure they make upon their land or houses.
. (Signed) W. GUTHRIE.
EDINBURGH, <June> 15, 1872
APPENDIX to COMMISSION ON THE TRUCK SYSTEM
(SHETLAND).
I. LEASES AND RULES FOR TENANTS.
I.
CONDITIONS OF SET of all LANDS forming parts of the ESTATE
of QUENDALE, in the Parishes of DUNROSSNESS, AITHSTING AND
SANDSTING, TINGWALL, WHITENESS AND WEISDALE, and
LERWICK, in SHETLAND.
1. The proprietor reserves--(1.) All mines and minerals, limestone
and stone quarries, marl and clay, in his lands, with full power to
work the same. (2.) All shell-fish, and especially mussels and
mussel scawps, and all shell-sand on the shores of his lands, with
sole and exclusive power to take and use the same. (3.) All game
and rabbits on his lands, and sole right to take and kill the same,
with full power to enter on and use his lands for that purpose. (4.)
All lochs and burns, with power to drain the lochs, and divert
the course of the burns, the proprietor making compensation for
damage by any of his said operations; and the tenant being entitled
to take and use, for his own purposes only, the limestone, stone
quarries, marl and clay in the lands occupied by him, and the
shell-fish, mussels, and shell-sand on the shores thereof, subject
always to such rules and restrictions as the proprietor may
establish or prescribe in regard to any or all of these matters.
2. The proprietor reserves the heritors' share of all ca'ing whales
killed or stranded on the shores of his lands; and every tenant, on
behalf of himself, and all in family with him, acknowledges the
proprietor's right to one-third of such whales.
3. The landlord reserves to himself all tang and other sea-weed,
growing and drift, with power to enter upon all his lands, and use
the same for the purpose of manufacturing the same, without
making any compensation to the tenants therefor; but the tenants
shall be entitled to take such tang and sea-weed as they may
require for manure.
4. The proprietor reserves full power -- (l.) To redivide his
enclosed lands, to the effect of placing the lands of each tenant
in one or more portions, and in a different place or places from
where they may have previously lain. (2.) To regulate and control
the use of the town mails, grass, and arable lands, by placing
restrictions on the tenants in the keeping of swine, geese, or
otherwise. (3.) To enclose or otherwise withdraw from the
scattalds such portions, not exceeding one-fourth of each scattald,
to be judged of as at the date of each tack, as he may deem proper.
(4.) To regulate the amount of sheep and horse stock to be kept by
each tenant on the scattald, so that each tenant shall have an
amount of pasturage proportionate to his rent. (5.) To limit the
number of swine and geese to be kept by each tenant on the
scattald, and, if he sees fit, to prohibit the tenants from turning
loose or keeping swine or geese on the scattalds altogether, and,
where allowing of such stocks, to place the keeping of them
under such regulations as he deems proper.
5. The proprietor reserves all trout fish in the lochs and burns on
his lands, and sole right to fish therefor; and every tenant shall
be held specially to consent, and shall be expressly bound and
obliged, alike as regards himself and all in family with him, to
abstain from fishing for trout (fresh-water or sea-trout alike) in all
fresh-water lochs, waters, and burns, and also in all burn-mouths
into which the sea-water may flow, and in all voes, inlets, or bays,
though consisting wholly or partially of salt or sea-water, into
which any fresh-water lochs or burns flow, and bounded wholly
or partially by lands belonging to the Busta estate; and shall in no
way take, or attempt to take (by rod, net, cruive, or hoovie, or in
any other way), any trout fish therein, unless with the express
leave of the proprietor; and when such leave extends to fishing by
net, then with a net of the size of mesh, used in the manner, and at
the time, and to the extent, expressly allowed and prescribed by
him.
6. All tenants shall be bound, if required, to pay, over and above
their stipulated rents, their proportion of all public and parochial
burdens which the law has laid, or may lay, directly upon tenants,
any custom to the contrary notwithstanding.
7. No office house must, hereafter, be erected on the side or end
of a dwelling-house, without the written permission of the
proprietor; and no tenant shall be entitled to remove from out the
dwelling-house or offices possessed by him at the expiry of his
lease, any roof, window, door, loft, stair, or other plenishing of a
like fixed nature, even though furnished and put in by himself,
unless his tack specially confers upon him such power; but the
incoming tenant shall be bound to pay the outgoing tenant the
value of the roofs, windows, and doors of the office-houses, if
such roofs, doors, and windows were paid for by him at entry,
or furnished by him during his lease.
8. Every tenant shall be bound, throughout the whole currency
of his tack, to maintain good and sufficient dykes of every sort,
including yard dykes, and to maintain sufficient and convenient
grinds in his dykes at all places usual and needful, and to have all
dykes in thorough and sufficient repair, and all grinds sufficient
and properly hung, at the latest on or before the first day of
April, and to keep up said dykes and grinds until the first day of
November in each year.
9. That in the event of any tenant not keeping dykes and grinds in
sufficient order, the proprietor shall be entitled to enter upon the
lands, and to repair the same, and to charge the tenant 10 per cent.
on the sums expended by him in said repairs; and the amount shall
be held as conclusively ascertained and fixed by a certificate
thereof, under the hands of the factor on the estate of Quendale for
the time.
10. Every tenant shall be bound to cultivate his lands in a proper
and husbandlike manner, with reference to the best practice of
husbandry in the district, and to consume upon his lands the whole
straw, hay, and fodder grown thereon, and not to sell or remove
any thereof, or any manure made upon the said lands from off the
same, even during the last year of his lease; the incoming tenant
being, however, bound to pay the outgoing tenant the value of the
straw, hay, fodder, or manure left by him on the lands.
11. In all cases, where arable lands are situated on a slope or
declivity, and are laboured by spade, the tenant shall, when
labouring, delve the riggs lengthwise, or along the side of the rigg,
each feal or fur extending from the top to the bottom of the rigg,
and the delving to begin one season at the right side, and the next
season at the left side of the rigg; and, in situations where it is
necessary to delve down hill, the tenant shall remove the first or
lower feal or fur at the bottom of each rigg, and along the whole
breadth thereof, and shall, when the rigg is completely delved,
carry the said removed feel or fur to the top, and deposit it in the
last fur or hollow at the top formed by the turning down of the
topmost feel or fur, so as much as possible to prevent the removal,
to the foot of the rigg, of earth from the higher ground.
12. No tenant shall be entitled to bring upon the lands possessed
by him (enclosed or scattald), or to allow to remain thereon, any
stock that does not belong to himself, or any halvers stock, or
stock that belongs wholly or partially to others, even though such
owners or co-owners be members of his own family, without the
express leave in writing of the proprietor; but tenants shall be
entitled to take for hire cattle to feed on their enclosed lands
during summer, or any tenants of parks or islands to take for hire
cattle to feed during the year round.
13. No tenant shall, on any pretext, keep or allow to be kept on his
enclosed lands or scattald, any swine, unless the same shall be
properly ringed; and it shall be the duty of all persons finding
unringed swine on lands belonging to the estate, immediately to
inform the factor or ground officers, or, the persons so finding
unringed swine, may lay hold of them, forthwith informing the
factor or ground officers of the circumstance; and no tenant shall
be entitled to cut truck or take earth, whether for the purpose of
manure, or any other purpose whatever, or to cut peats, feal, or
divot, or to cast pones, or ryve flaws, or ryve or strike, or cut thack
or heather, or to cut, pull, or to take floss, or rushes, at any places
or times, or in any way or manner, except at the places, and at the
times, and in the way and manner, that shall be allowed by the
proprietor; and, until special places, times, ways, and manners
shall be pointed out and prescribed, tenants shall only do these
acts at the places and times proper and usual, and in the way and
manner least calculated to exhaust the supply and injure the
pasture or other subject; and especially in cutting truck and taking
earth, no tenant shall be entitled to do it where the soil is thin and
the ground high or sloping, nor to scrape mould on such ground,
but only to cut truck and take earth from places where the soil is
deep, or where, from being in a hollow, it will speedily again
accumulate and sward over; and, in cutting peats, tenants shall on
all occasions open the banks in a straight line, and in the line of
the watercourse, and make proper drains from the lower end of the
banks, in order to prevent the accumulation of stagnant water, and
shall carefully preserve the surface feal, and as soon as the peats
are cut, smooth the surface of the bottom of the banks, and replace
properly the surface feals with the grass side uppermost.
14. No tenant shall be entitled to keep more than two dogs, and
which dogs shall be harmless, and properly trained not to follow
sheep, except when sent after them by their masters; and every
tenant shall be responsible for all damage done by any vicious
dogs kept by him, and shall be bound to part with any dogs judged
by the proprietor to be vicious, on a requisition by him to that
effect.
15. No tenant shall be entitled to sell or retail, or allow to be sold
or retailed on his lands, any spirituous or malt liquor, tobacco,
snuff, or tea, nor to carry on, nor allow to be carried on upon his
lands, any fish-curing business of any kind, without the consent of
the proprietor; with power, however, to the tenant, if a fisherman,
to cure the fish caught by himself; and that either separately or in
conjunction with other fishermen.
16. No tenant shall receive into his house nor allow to harbour on
his lands, any useless or disabled persons, not members of his own
family, or any idle or disorderly or disreputable person or persons
whatever, or any married persons (except himself), though
relations, without the leave of the proprietor; and every tenant
shall be bound to maintain all members of his family, who, from
infirmity, age, or otherwise, may be incapable of supporting
themselves, so as to prevent their becoming a burden on the
Parochial Board.
17. Every tenant shall be bound to maintain good neighbourhood;
to abstain from all encroachments on his neighbours, either by
allowing his cattle improperly to stray on their grounds or
otherwise, and to that end to keep his cattle properly tethered
within the limits of his own grass, ley, or stubble ground, from the
1st day of April to the 1st day of November in each year; and to
maintain in all respects a character and conduct becoming an
industrious and Christian man, and to enforce such a line of
conduct on all living in family with him.
18. Every tenant shall be bound to bring up and educate his
children properly, according to his means and opportunities, by
using every endeavour to allow of their attendance at schools
where sound religious and secular knowledge may be acquired;
and, by precept and example, otherwise training them up to be
pious, industrious, and good members of society.
19. It is expressly declared, that all powers conferred on the
proprietor by these conditions shall be capable of being effectually
exercised and carried into effect by, and at the instance of, the duly
appointed factor on the estate of Quendale, and by the sub-factors
and ground officers under them.
II. RULES FOR THE BETTER MANAGEMENT OF THE SUMBURGH ESTATE.
Any tenant on the estate can apply for a copy of these regulations;
and on his obtaining said copy, duly dated and signed by himself
and the landlord, these rules shall form a binding agreement
between himself and the landlord, and shall have all the force of
a lease.
Each holding shall be valued by the landlord, and the nature of the
holding and value declared on the back of the copy of these rules,
handed to the tenant thereof; and the rent shall not afterwards be
raised to that tenant for the term of fifty years, except as herein
provided.
As, in time past, money has gradually but surely decreased in
value, and land has gradually increased in value in the same or a
greater proportion, it shall be in the option of the landlord, at the
end of ten years from the signing of this agreement, to make such
addition to the rent paid by the tenant as he shall see fit and
reasonable, according to the times; but said addition shall, under
no circumstances, exceed twenty per cent., or one-fifth of the rent
formerly paid, and so on, at the end of every ten years.
The tenant shall be at liberty to make such improvements on the
property in his occupation as shall be sanctioned by the landlord;
and such improvements, when executed, shall be inspected by the
landlord, and shall be described in a minute appended to this
agreement; and said minute shall declare the value of said
improvements, and the number of years it is considered the tenant
ought to occupy said holding, in order to obtain repayment for said
improvements; and should the tenant leave his holding before the
expiry of said number of years, he shall be entitled to receive from
the landlord compensation for the unexhausted part of his
improvements, as under:-- Dividing the declared value of the
improvement by the number of years of occupancy required to
repay the outlay, the tenant shall receive one part for every such
unexpired year; thus: suppose the improvement cost twenty
pounds, and the number of years required to repay the outlay were
twenty years,-- if the tenant left after five years, he would be
entitled to fifteen pounds; if after ten years, to ten pounds; if after
fifteen years, to five pounds; and so on.
No tenant shall have a right to claim compensation for
improvements which have not been approved of by the
landlord, by a signed minute, appended to this agreement.
Should any tenant fail to execute such improvements as the
landlord shall consider necessary, then the landlord shall be
entitled to enter on said holding, and execute said improvements
himself; and shall charge the tenant, in addition to his rent, such
interest on said improvements as he shall see fit,--said interest not
to exceed ten per cent., or two shillings in the pound, on the total
cost.
Should any tenant desire improvements which he is unable to
execute without assistance, he may apply to the landlord, and
obtain from him such assistance as he may require; the landlord
charging interest on such outlay made by him, as above provided,
and the tenant being entitled to compensation, as above provided,
on his part of the outlay.
All houses, buildings, fences, and drains, as well as any
improvement made, as above, must be kept up by the tenant
during his occupancy, and in good tenantable repair; and the
fact of any tenant allowing such improved property to deteriorate,
shall debar him from claiming compensation for it.
After any farm shall have been enclosed, the tenant shall be
bound to adhere to a rotation of crops, or course of cropping,-- the
ordinary five-course shift of <corn, turnips> or <potatoes, corn,
grass>, or other rotation, to be approved of by the landlord.
No tenant shall cut up the grass lands for truck, feals, or divots,
either within the town dykes or in the scattald, except on such
spots as may be pointed out by the ground officer.
Peats are only to be cut where pointed out by the ground officer:
the banks to be opened in straight lines, the moss cut to the
channel, and the feals laid down, carefully, with the grass side up.
No tenant shall allow his swine to go at large.
No tenant shall sublet any part of his holding, or shall take in a
second family to live with him or on his farm, without permission
from the landlord.
The landlord reserves to himself all minerals, game, shooting, and
trout fishing on the estate; and shall be at liberty, at all times, to
enter on any holding, to search for and work minerals and quarries,
to lay off and make roads, and to alter the marches of any farm in
such a manner as he shall see fit. But should such action of his
lessen the value of any farm, he will make a proportionate
reduction of rent.
The tenant shall be bound to observe all the rules generally in
force on the property for the time being.
<Subject to the above rules, the landlord reserves right to take into
his own hands any part of his estate, at any time, on giving the
tenant legal notice>.
III.
ARTICLES, REGULATIONS, AND CONDITIONS OF LEASE,
which are to have the same effect as if engrossed at length in the
Leases agreed betwixt the PROPRIETOR of the Estates of GARTH
and ANNSBRAE, on the one part, and the Tenants of said Lands, on
the other part.
1. <Length of Lease and Rent Term>. -- The lease shall be for ten
years from Martinmas. The rent shall be due and payable at the
term of Martinmas every year.
2. <Payment of Taxes>. -- Such local or other taxes as shall be
levied upon tenants shall be duly paid by them when due, or if
advanced by the proprietor, shall be settled for along with the rent.
3. <Subletting, etc.> -- The tenant is bound not to sublet or assign in
whole or in part, directly or indirectly, without the permission in
writing of the proprietor or his factor. Without similar permission,
only one family shall occupy the subject let. The head of the
family is responsible for the conduct of all the members of same.
The tack is to go to the lawful heirs-male of the tenant, according
to seniority in the first instance, and failing heirs-male, to the
heirs-female by the same rules, without division. But the tenant
is allowed, notwithstanding, by a written deed or letter under his
hand, to select any one of his children in preference to another to
succeed him in the lease, who will be recognised and received as
tenant, upon due intimation being given in writing, provided
that the lease descends to the individual named free and
unencumbered.
4. <Repairs to Houses, etc.> -- The tenants are bound to maintain,
keep, and leave at the end of their lease in good tenantable
condition the houses, and all permanent improvements handed
over, or that may be added during the lease.
5. <Enclosing and other permanent Improvements.> -- In
consequence of the land being unenclosed, and in need of
draining and other permanent improvements, the tenants are
bound to annually expend upon their farms, in such manner as
may be pointed out by the proprietor or his factor, improvements
equal in value to the amount of the annual rent. During the first
five years of the lease the proprietor will allow annually an amount
equal to one half of such permanent improvements as may have
been executed in a satisfactory manner (said amount in no case to
exceed one half of the amount of rent). During the last five years
of the lease, the tenants are bound to pay in addition to the annual
rent a further rent-charge, at the rate of seven per cent. per annum
upon the total sum or sums allowed for improvements during the
first five years of the lease.
6. <Rotation of Cropping.>--The practice of continuing to labour
without any regular rotation, and to exhaust the soil by
over-cropping, being extremely prejudicial both to the interests
of the proprietor and tenants, it is stipulated that every tenant shall
follow a five-shift rotation of crops in the order after prescribed,
viz.:--one-fifth of the farm under summer fallow, or green crop
properly cleaned and dunged; two-fifths to be under corn crops,
but not immediately following each other in the, same division;
and two-fifths in first and second years grass. During the first
three years, as it may be impossible to follow the rotation, the
tenants are bound to follow such orders of cropping as may be
pointed out by the proprietor or his factor.
7. <Selling Straw, Turnips, etc.> -- To insure the improving the
lands, no tenant shall be at liberty to sell or otherwise dispose of
any straw, turnips, hay, or dung produce upon his farm. All that
class of produce must be consumed on the farm, unless with the
written permission of the proprietor or his factor.
8. <Way-going Crop.> -- In compensation for the tenants leaving
their lands in a more improved condition, and for being prevented
from disposing of certain portions of their crops, the tenants are to
be paid for the grass seeds sown with the way-going crop, as also
for their straw, hay, and turnips left at the end of their lease, and
for all dung made during the last six months of said lease, all at the
value as appraised by two arbiters mutually chosen.
9. <Keeping second-rate Animals for breeding purposes.> -- To
insure improvement upon stock, no tenant is allowed to keep
any bull, stallion, ram, or boar, except such as has been approved
of, and permitted in writing by the proprietor or his factor.
10. <No Dogs allowed.> -- To prevent the destruction of, or
annoyance to, the stock upon the scattalds, no tenant will
allowed to keep a dog or dogs.
11. <Minerals, Shootings, etc. reserved.> -- The proprietor
reserves to himself the right of searching for, opening, and
working mines and minerals, on paying such surface damage only
as may be ascertained and fixed by two arbiters mutually chosen.
The proprietor also reserves the shootings, and the salmon and
trout fishings.
12. <Peat-moss, Sea-weed, and Shell-sand reserved.> -- The
proprietor further reserves to himself all the peat-mosses,
sea-weed, and shell-sand, with power to regulate and divide
them as circumstances may render necessary. All tenants are
bound in future to cast such peats as may be allotted, in a regular
manner, and to lay down the turf in neat and regular order, without
potting, and to the satisfaction of any one duly appointed by the
proprietor. The drift, seaweed, and shell-sand to be used as
manure, will be divided amongst the tenants, according to the
quantity of land held by each. All other sea-weed, rights of
foreshore, share of whales, etc., are expressly reserved by the
proprietor.
13. <Boats> noust,< etc.> -- All privileges of grazing upon
scattalds, removing ' truck,' etc., is reserved by the proprietor. No
tenant is allowed any privilege outside the boundary of his farm,
with the single exception of the boats nousts as presently enjoyed.
14. <Regulations, etc.> -- The tenants are bound to accede to all
local regulations which are or may be established for the more
orderly management of the property, and the general interests of
all concerned.
15. <Bankruptcy.> -- It is expressly stipulated, that when any act
of bankruptcy upon the part of the tenant takes place, that his lease
shall terminate and revert back to the proprietor at the first term
after such act of bankruptcy; but to remove all grounds to
complain of injustice, whatever rise of rent is actually obtained
from the farm in a bona fide manner, when let anew, shall be
accounted for annually when received during the balance of the
lease to the creditor or trustee, or an equivalent paid in one sum
for all the years of the lease unexpired.
16. <Feus reserved.> -- The proprietor reserves to himself the right
to grant feus off any farm, upon allowing such deduction of rent
only as may be determined by two valuators mutually chosen.
17. <Penalties.> -- All tenants are bound to conform to the
foregoing articles, regulations, and conditions of lease, under
the penalty of forfeiture of all the benefits of their lease, and
immediate loss of their farms.
18. <Formal Lease, etc.>--A printed copy of these conditions
and regulations, signed by the proprietor or his factor, before
witnesses, shall be delivered to each person who is accepted as
a tenant, and the tenant's name, designation of farm, amount of
rent, etc. entered in a minute-book specially kept for such purpose;
and the tenant may at any time afterwards claim a regular lease
upon stamped paper, to be extended at his own expense.
19. <Removal.> -- Every tenant shall be bound to remove from the
houses and lands at the expiry of the lease, without notice of
removal or other legal warning, and shall be liable to double the
previous year's rent for every year that he or she may remain in
possession after the termination of the tack.
IV. CIRCULAR sent to TENANTS on Major CAMERON'S Estate in
Unst, by the Tacksmen, Messrs. SPENCE & CO.
As there has been, for some time past, many vague reports
throughout the island regarding the change of system in the
management of the tenantry, consequent on the withdrawal from
them of the scattalds, which of late have been looked upon as
more valuable than formerly, with other changes in the mode of
farming, etc.,
We therefore deem it right to make it generally known to the
tenants on the Garth and Annsbrae estates in Unst, that, knowing
the change was certain, and believing it would be severely felt at
first, if not gradually and judiciously introduced; we have, hoping
to modify to a certain extent coming changes, obtained a lease of
these estates; and, with the view at the commencement, and
throughout, if possible, of retaining the scattalds in connection
with the arable lands and outsets, have taken the scattalds at a
fixed and separate rent. The scattalds, on this footing, if viewed as
a business speculation, could be enclosed, as has been done here
and elsewhere, and let out to strangers, or occupied by ourselves.
Such a course, however, we consider would be hard on the present
tenants, and therefore, in the meantime, purpose to forego all
pecuniary advantage which might, by keeping the scattalds, arise
to ourselves, and give such over to the general advantage of
tenants, on condition of receiving for all animals pasturing thereon
a fixed rate per head, to be determined yearly. With this view, and
in order to disturb existing arrangements as little as possible this
year, we shall begin with fixing a charge of 1s. 6d. per head on
byre cattle, 3s. 6d. per head on all horse stock over one year old,
with 9d. per head for sheep, payable at Martinmas 1868. These
rates will be doubled for stock to tenants on any other property
found pasturing on the scattalds rented by us; and before these
neutral tenants will be allowed to pasture stock on our scattalds,
they must pay in advance, and obtain a licence for such number
as they wish to pasture on the grounds. Thus the benefit of the
scattalds will be secured to those who pay for them. Measures will
be adopted to protect the tenants and ourselves from all unlawful
trespass.
As regards the 'rules and regulations' in force on the Garth and
Annsbrae estates, copies of which have been given to the tenants
in Unst, we have obtained such modifications of these, as, we
believe, will be found satisfactory, easily wrought, and we fondly
hope for the good of all concerned in the end. These modified
rules, however, will not come into operation this year; tenants will
have time to consider them; and, when introduced, we believe
generally, they will see the advantage accruing to themselves. We
do not expect that the idle and thriftless will admire them, but it
may help them to discover that 'Idleness is the parent of want,
while the hand of the diligent maketh rich.'
From these remarks we hope it will be seen that our desire is to
help and benefit the tenants, and, as far as we can, raise them,
socially and morally. With a strict regard to equity, confining
ourselves entirely to this affair and business, on strictly fair and
just principles, we shall persevere and hope, under the blessing of
Providence, that all will result well to proprietors, tenants, and
ourselves.
In carrying this work forward, we ask the tenants' help and
assistance; we will study never to present ourselves in a false
light, and we shall at all times claim honest and fair dealings on
the tenants' part; doubledealing, deceit, and dishonesty will be
punished; the idle-inclined and the spendthrift will meet with
encouragement only as they abandon those habits. The careful,
honest, active man will receive all help and encouragement in our
power. Our desire is to benefit all under our care, and we will do
so, unless the tenants themselves prevent it.
JOHN SPENCE.
WILLIAM G. MOUAT.
JOHN THOMSON.
<December> 1867. ALEXANDER SANDISON.
V.
EXCERPTS from LEASE between Major T.M. CAMERON of
Annsbrae and Messrs. SPENCE & CO.
The subjects set are all and whole the town and farms
of Norwick, Balliasta, and others, together with the outsets thereon, as
more particularly specified in the rental annexed,
and subscribed by the contracting parties as relative hereto,
together also with the scattalds, dwelling-houses, piers, booths,
beaches, and all parts, pertinents, and privileges of the said lands
not hereby expressly reserved, and not inconsistent with the
working of the lands under the rules of good management, all
lying in the parish and island of Unst and county of Shetland, with
entry to the said lands and others (excepting as to the following
farms and subjects held on lease by the respective tenants, viz.:
Crossbister, held by Edward Ramsay; Balliasta, held by Charles
Gray and James Manson; the grass parks of Gardie, held by
Alexander Sandison; house and one merk in Himron, held by
Alexander Harper; the mill Westing, now vacant; Saredale, held by
John Nisbit; Muness, held by James Thomson; Collaster, held by
James Smith; and Uyeasound, held by Donald Johnson) at the term
of Martinmas, in the year eighteen hundred and sixty-eight, and
from thenceforth to be peaceably occupied and possessed by the
said lessees for the space of twelve years, say until the term of
Martinmas in the year eighteen hundred and eighty; and with
respect to the said subjects already let by the proprietor, with
entry at the termination of the respective tacks thereof, and from
thenceforth the whole of said subjects to be peaceably possessed
by the said lessees till the said term of Martinmas, eighteen
hundred and eighty; but declaring that, notwithstanding the term
of entry to these subjects is postponed on account of their being
already let, it is provided and declared that the lessees under this
tack shall draw the rents payable in respect thereof from and after
the term of Martinmas, eighteen hundred and sixty-eight; together
also with the right to the said lessees of manufacturing kelp from
seaweed grown upon or gathered from the shores of the said lands,
together also with the right of collecting drift-weed be used as
manure, and the right of cutting turf or 'pones,' but that only for
the purpose of keeping in repair the roofs of the houses hereby
let, and only in parts of the subjects where the same would be
least injurious to the lands; and in the event of any difference of
opinion arising as to this, the same to be determined by the
arbiter hereinafter appointed; together also with the right of
cutting peats in the manner after mentioned in the rules for
subtenants; reserving to the proprietor all mines and minerals,
with liberty to search for, etc.
And in respect the lessees are taken bound, as after-mentioned,
to expend yearly for five years certain sums on the improvement of
the property hereby let, the one half of which is to be repaid to
them by the proprietors in the manner afterwards stated: And
whereas they contemplate getting their half of these improvements
executed by their sub-tenants under certain stipulations in the
sub-leases after mentioned, the condition of which sub-leases
are new in Shetland, and a number of the tenants may decline to
enter into them, thus leaving vacant farms, and entailing on the
lessees themselves the half of the expense of carrying out the
improvements upon these farms; it is hereby provided and
declared, and the said Thomas Mouat Cameron, for himself and
his foresaids, their heirs and successors, binds and obliges him
and them, that should such a number of the said farms remain
vacant as to entail of annual outlay an annual amount altogether
exceeding one hundred pounds sterling, he and they shall be bound
to advance any excess of that sum, making an annual rent-charge
upon the lessees of 10 per cent. on their half of said advance
(as, for example, should improvements to the value of only
six hundred pounds per annum be effected by means of the
sub-tenants, leaving three hundred to be expended by the lessees,
the proprietors would, in such case, advance the agreed-upon four
hundred and fifty pounds at six pounds fourteen shillings per cent.
per annum, and of the one hundred and fifty pounds expended by
the lessees, the excess of one hundred pounds -- namely, fifty
pounds -- at a rentcharge of ten per cent. per annum): And where
as some of the houses on the property hereby let are not in good
repair, the said Thomas Mouat Cameron binds and obliges
himself, and his and their foresaids, to put the same in good
tenantable order and condition within two years from the
commencement of this lease ..... And it is hereby provided
and declared that this lease is granted, and the same is hereby
accepted, under the restrictions and reservations, and subject to
the following conditions, viz.: <First>, That the said lessees and
their foresaids shall annually, during the first five years of this
lease, and that before the first day of September in each year,
expend, either by themselves or by their sub-tenants, under rule 5
of the rules and regulations for sub-leases, afterwards referred to,
and annexed hereto, upon permanent improvements upon the
subjects hereby let, in such a way as may be pointed out by the
proprietors or their factor (the laying off and subdividing the
ground to be improved to be at the expense of the proprietor), the
sum of nine hundred pounds sterling per annum; it being provided
and declared that the first annual expenditure, or as much thereof
as the lessees may require, shall be made on fencing, subject
always, however, to the aforesaid sanction of the said proprietors
or their factor; the one half of said sum, viz. four hundred and fifty
pounds sterling per annum, for five years, shall be repaid to the
said lessees by the proprietors, through some drainage or land
improvement company, at the term of Martinmas yearly, provided
always that the said improvements shall have been executed by the
said lessees before the previous said first day of September in each
year, and shall, previous to said payment, have been inspected and
passed by the Government inspector, and shall have in every
respect been executed in the way pointed out by the proprietors or
their factor; or, in the event of their having failed to point out the
improvements required at least ten months before the said first
September, then it shall be sufficient if the lessees have executed
them in the way they deem best; upon which advances the lessees
shall pay halfyearly, at the terms of Whitsunday and Martinmas,
during the continuance of this lease, the whole of the rent-charge
payable in respect of said advance by such drainage or other
company, at such rate as the said company may charge upon a
twenty-five years' loan, but not to exceed six pounds fourteen
shillings per cent. per annum; and the lessees shall also pay the
poor-rates and road-money, if any, exigible from the landlord in
respect of said rent-charge; and it is also provided and declared
that, in the event of the said lessees failing regularly to pay the said
rent-charge and the said annual rent, and allowing the same to
remain unpaid for more than ten days after the terms at which the
said payments thereof respectively become due in any year, then,
and in that event, it shall be in the option of the proprietors, or
their foresaids, to put an end to and terminate this lease, and the
same shall <ipso facto> become null and void.
................................................
<Fourth>: That the lessees 'shall labour, cultivate, and manure
such parts of the subjects hereby let as are brought or to be brought
under cultivation, according to the rules of good husbandry, and
shall follow a six course shift or rotation, and leave the same in
that state, but with reference to rule 6 of the rules with sub-tenant
annexed hereto.
<Fifth>. That the lessees are bound to offer to the present tenants
sub-leases of such portion of the lands hereby let as may be laid
off to accompany their houses, and may, during the first six years
of the lease, sublet to others any farms so laid off, and which the
present tenants may refuse to take and during the remaining six
years any sub-tenancy becoming vacant can only be sublet with
the consent, in writing, of the proprietors or their agent; but such
sub-leases can only be entered into on observing the conditions
rules, and regulations for that purpose annexed, and subscribed by
the contracting parties as relative hereto, to which special
reference is made, and which shall be held to be as binding on
both parties as if the same were incorporated herein.
<Sixth>. That the lessees shall be bound to leave upon the subjects
hereby let a flock of Cheviot or black-faced ewes average quality,
and not less in number than six hundred of equal proportion one,
two, three, and four years of age, and shall be bound to hand
the same over to the proprietors at the end of this lease, at the
valuation of two persons to be mutually and specially chosen for
the purpose.
<Seventh>. That the lessees shall arrange that only one family
shall be in the occupation of each holding at the expiry of this
lease, and for at least one year prior thereto.
<Twelfth>, It is hereby stipulated and agreed on by the lessors and
lessees that this lease may be added to, altered, or modified, by
simple letters exchanged between or modifications be found
necessary in order to work out its different provisions and the
lease being of a nature new and untried in Shetland, that it shall be
interpreted as favourably as possible for the lessees, consistent
with already expressed intentions of the two parties.
RULES AND REGULATIONS to be entered into between the
LESSEES under the foregoing Lease and their SUB-TENANTS
referred to, and subscribed by the parties with special reference to
said Lease.
1. No sub-lease shall extend beyond the term of Martinmas
eighteen hundred and eighty.
2. Such local or other taxes as shall be levied upon tenants shall
be duly paid by the sub-tenants according to the amount of their
rents, or if advanced by the lessees shall be repaid to them by the
sub-tenants.
3. Only one family shall be allowed to occupy each holding.
4. The sub-tenants shall be bound to maintain, keep, and leave at
the end of their sub-leases in good tenantable condition, the houses
and all permanent improvements handed over or that may be
added during the existence of the sub lease.
5. The sub-tenants shall be bound to expend annually upon their
respective holdings, in such manner as may be pointed out by
the proprietor, or his factor improvements equal in value to the
amount of the annual rent. During the first five years of the
sub-lease, the lessees will allow annually an amount equal to one
half of such permanent improvements as may have been executed
in a satisfactory manner (said amount in no case to exceed one half
of the amount of rent), and the sub-tenants shall be bound to pay at
the rate of seven per cent. per annum on all advances so made
during the period of endurance of their sub-leases.
6. Every sub-tenant shall be bound to follow a six-shift rotation
of crops, according to the rules of good husbandry. During the first
three years, as it may be impossible to follow the rotation, the
sub-tenants are bound to follow such orders of cropping as may be
pointed out by the proprietors or their factor and the lessees.
7. No sub-tenant shall be at liberty to sell or otherwise dispose of
any straw, turnips, hay, or dung produced on his farm except to
neighbours, tenants on the property. All that class of produce must
be consumed on the farm, unless with the written permission of
the proprietors which will be given to any tenant agreeing to
expend the full value of any such produce sold upon the purchase
of oilcake or special manure to be consumed on the farm during
the same season.
8. In compensation for the sub-tenants leaving their lands in a
more improved condition, and for being prevented from disposing
of certain portions of their crops, the sub-tenants shall be paid by
the proprietor of the lands, through the lessees for the grass seeds
sown with way-going crop, as also for their corn and straw, hay
and turnips, or other produce left at the end of their sub-leases, and
for all dung made during the last six months of said sub-lease, all
at the value as the same shall be determined by two valuators to be
mutually chosen for the purpose.
9. No sub-tenant shall be allowed to keep any bull, stallion, ram,
or boar, unless such as permitted by the lessees.
10. The lessees shall reserve from the sub-leases, for behoof of
the proprietor, the right of searching for and working mines and
minerals, and the right of salmon and trout fishings and shootings.
11. The lessees shall also reserve all the peat-mosses, shell-sand,
and sea-weed, and shall regulate and divide them among their
sub-tenants as circumstances shall render necessary; the lessees
shall also bind the sub-tenants to 'cast', such peats as may be
allotted in a regular manner, and to relay the turf in neat and
regular order, with the grass side uppermost. The drift sea-weed
and shell-sand to be used as manure will be divided by the lessees
among their sub-tenants according to the quantity of land held by
each.
12. No sub-tenant shall have an right to strike theek, cut turf,
except as hereinbefore provided for repairing roofs of houses, or
floss, remove earth, or in any way deteriorate or injure the lands
hereby let, without the consent of the proprietors or their agent or
factor.
13. The sub-tenant shall be bound to accede to all local regulations
which may be made by lessees, with consent of the proprietors, for
the more orderly management of the property and the general
interests of all concerned.
14. When any act of bankruptcy shall take place upon the part of
any sub-tenants, it shall be stipulated that this lease shall terminate
and revert back to the lessees at the first term after such act of
bankruptcy.
15. The lessees shall be bound to reserve from the sub-leases the
right to the proprietor to grant feus off any farm, upon his allowing
such deduction of rent to the lessees, and through them to the
sub-tenant, as may be determined by two valuators mutually
chosen for the purpose, and upon his finding security, to the
satisfaction of the lessees, that the said feus shall not be used in
any form what ever for purposes of business during the existence
of their lease.
16. A clause shall be inserted in the sub-leases binding the tenants
to remove from the houses and lands at the expiry of their
respective sub-leases without notice of removal or other legal
warning.
17. Lastly, a clause shall be inserted in the sub-leases binding
the sub-tenants to conform to the foregoing regulations and
conditions, under the penalty of forfeiture thereof.
II.--THE FISHERIES AND FISHING TRADE OF WICK.
(Communicated by Malcolm M'Lennan, Esq., procurator-Fiscal,
Wick.)
White-fishing is but a secondary enterprise at Wick. In the
end of September, annually, a number of boats engage in fishing
for haddocks, and prosecute this fishing till November. This year
fifteen boats engaged in this work, each manned by eight men.
The best boats of the herring fishing fleet are employed, and for
the use of the boat one-ninth part of the proceeds of the fishing is
paid to the boatowner. In local phraseology, the boat is said to be
held by the crew 'on deal,' and the consideration paid for it is 'the
boat's deal.' The average winnings of these boats for the seven
weeks or two months of the haddock-fishing are reckoned at £100,
divisible into nine shares, eight for the crew and one for the boat's
deal. The men hire the boat, and provide each his own lines and
bait.
Before commencing this fishing the fishermen generally agree
with a fish-curer, who binds himself to take all the haddocks
which they catch at a fixed price. This year the rate was 8s. per
cwt. The price is paid in cash each Saturday night of the season.
In the end of November or beginning of December the fishermen
enter into engagements for the cod and ling fishing, then about to
commence. This fishing is prosecuted from December till March,
both months included. This year about 30 boats are engaged in it.
The system pursued is much as in the haddock-fishing. Good
boats are hired by the crews 'on deal,' and the crews supply their
own lines and bait; and having arranged with a fish-curer, deliver
their fish to him as they catch them. The contract is, however,
varied to some extent. The men bargain for 'a bounty ' which is
paid to them in cash at the time of forming the bargain. This year
it ranged from £8 to £12, and the bounty is at once divided by the
crew. The fish are sold not by weight, but at a fixed price for each
fish of a certain standard of length, which this year was fourteen
pence for each fish of sixteen inches. All smaller fish are rejected
by the curers, and are sold by the fishermen in the local markets.
The curers pay cash each Saturday night for fish delivered to them
in course of the preceding week.
Simultaneously with the cod and ling fishing what is known as 'the
winter herring-fishing' is prosecuted. Indeed, the cod and ling
fishing is, in a large measure, dependent on this fishing for
herrings -- fresh herrings being found to be the best bait for cod
and ling. The value of the herrings landed at Wick in course of
December, January, and February in some years has touched
£5000, but generally is very much less. The herrings are sold to
the highest bidder on the arrival of the boats at the harbour, and
paid for in cash on the instant, there being no such contract
concerning them as in the case of white fish.
By the time the cod and ling fishing ceases in March the fishermen
begin preparations for the herring-fishing on the west coast Lewis
and the Hebrides which commences about the middle of May. For
this fishing much the same up of five or six joint-adventurers, each
supplying his share of nets; or, if a less number of partners embark
in it they hire one or more fishermen to complete the crew and of
course, have each a larger share of the profits. Generally they
take with them in their boats their supplies of meal, groceries,
and biscuit, etc. In the west-coast fishing, so far as boats from
Caithness engage in it, the fishermen engage themselves to deliver
all their fish to a curer at an agreed on price per cran, which price
is paid in cash at the end of the fishing, about 1st July. In the
majority of cases the men get an advance of cash from the curers
when fitting out their boats, to the amount of £4 or £5 per man.
Such sums, of course, are deducted from the price of the herrings
in the final settlement.
The Caithness herring-fishing next follows, commencing about
18th July, and lasting till 6th or 10th September. Hitherto
the whole course of the dealings between the fishermen and
fish-curers noticed in this statement has been unexceptionable,
being simply the delivery of fish by the former at agreed on rates
of price, paid by the latter, the curers, in cash at short periods. In
the great Caithness herring-fishing a change of system occurs,
which appears to be mainly owing to the heavy cost of the boats
and material employed, and the heavy sums disbursed by each
boat for labour and maintenance in each season.
A new fishing-boat of the best class costs from £120 to £140,
including sails and rigging complete. A drift of 35 nets (and the
drift often consists of a greater number), at 10s. per net, is value
for £120. A boat well kept is reckoned to stand fourteen years.
The drift of nets is said to require renewal every eight years.
The ordinary case is, that one fisherman is either really or
nominally owner of the boat and drift with which he engages
in this fishing. At least a fisherman actually undertakes the
whole enterprise of the season's fishing with the boat of which
he has possession with all the liabilities attending it. This is,
however, subject to variation, as sometimes two men, and
sometimes but less frequently three men, are the real or nominal
owners of a boat and take the risks of it . Assuming that a man
starts with a new boat and drift free of debt, not only must he have
a capital of about £250 invested in these, but he must be prepared
to undertake further the following charges of the season:--
1 Wages of four hired men (generally
strangers from the Highlands or Islands)
and a boy, ...... £ 30 0 0
2. Their lodgings, ..... 3 0 0
3. Their allowance of meal, .... 4 0 0
4. Cost of barking nets, .... 3 0 0
5. Cartage and drying-green for nets,. . 3 0 0
6. Harbour dues, ..... 1 0 0
44 0 0
But taking into account that accidentally many nets are lost or
destroyed in each year, and that the fishing is prosecuted in boats,
and with nets more or less worn, and that thus there is need of
considerable annual repair and replacement, it will be seen that in
the ordinary case the expense of a fishing season is largely greater
than in the case of an adventure, with a new boat and drift. Thus
the expense, as above, .....
£ 44 0 0
Replacing 4 nets, ..... 14 0 0
Repairing drift, ..... 2 0 0
Repairing and tarring boat, barking ropes,
sails, etc. , ...... 2 0 0
To which falls to be added, to meet
the annual deterioration of the boat 10 0 0
£72 0 0
It follows that the fisherman can have no advantage from the
Caithness herring-fishing unless his boat clears a sum of £ 72, or
thereabout, in which case the surplus over that amount will
constitute his profit.
But if the fisherman has borrowed the money invested in the
boat and nets, it is apparent that his annual burden is increased
by the sum of interest which he must pay for it. And this leads to
reference to a local custom of some importance. If the fisherman
has borrowed the money to purchase his boat and nets, or if, as is
usually the case, he receives them from a fish-curer to whom he
thus becomes debtor for their value, he does so on the condition --
very natural in the circumstances -- that he shall deliver all his fish
to the creditor as long as he remains in debt. In such a case the
price of the herrings is not fixed by contract, but is 'the general
terms' of price conceded by fish-curers to fishermen in their debt;
and these terms are generally about 20 per cent. below the price
paid by the curers to men free of debt, and able to bargain
beforehand concerning it. This is so while interest is charged
on the amount of the debt, or while the fisherman is charged with
'boat's deal' as he usually is, when the debt is not wiped off within
the second year.
For the years 1860-70, the average annual take of herrings was
only 86 crans. The average price is not stated in any tabular form,
but it certainly did not amount to £1 per cran under 'the general
terms' system. Thus, assuming that that portion of the herring
fleet held by fishermen in debt fished its fair average of these
eleven years, it will be seen that the total sum realized but barely
sufficed to meet the necessary outlays of the season, and to pay
interest on the capital involved
This average, however, represents the mean of success and failure.
In every year a few boats fish largely in excess of the average, and
a still larger number fall more or less short of it. The latter lose
money, if they have money to lose. They who have none fall into
debt, or into deeper debt. It is said that fully two-thirds of the
fishermen are in debt, and pursue this extensive enterprise
burdened with all the disadvantages of debt. Their debts range
from all kinds of figures up to £300.
Still there is no such thing as truck; and payment, when payment is
owing, is made in cash. In the case of men free of debt, the price,
being fixed, is at once paid at the close of the fishing, or soon
thereafter. In the case of men in debt, circumstances make the
settlement more complicated. At the outset of his career the
fisherman is desirous of standing as little as possible in debt to his
curer. One or two unsuccessful seasons or seasons of but partial
success quickly change his view and he becomes eager to lay as
much of the burden of the fishing as possible on the fishcurer.
Thus, when he wants nets, he calls on the curer to guarantee
payment to the seller of nets. He gets tar, and cutch, and ropes in
the same way. The curer guarantees payment of the wages, meal,
and other supplies of the crew; and of the cartage of the nets, and
the rent of their drying ground. All these are, of course, debited in
the fisherman's account. Generally the curer pays off all those
claims that require instant settlement at the close of the fishing
season. If things have gone fairly well, he may make the man a
payment in cash at the same time; but the final settlement of the
year is postponed till Martinmas, when, if cash is owing, it is paid.
If no balance accrues to the fisherman, his account is handed to
him; and if he is a crofter, or a reliable man the curer advances to
him £12 or £20, to pay his rent and tide him over the hard times in
winter. Sometimes the curer assists his fishermen debtors by
supplies of meal for their families in winter, the meal being
procured by the curer's orders to millers or meal dealers.
It is tolerably certain that the curer receives an abatement or
discount from the merchant's prices of the meal, goods, ropes,
nets, or other things which the fishermen procure on his
guarantee. But sometimes the guarantee is an open one, with
which the fisherman goes to any merchant he chooses making
the best bargain he can.
Thus the basis of the system in this, the herring-fishing, is also
mainly one of cash payments. On the first relation of it, too, it
seems a system conducted in very liberal ways, inasmuch as the
fish-curers are prompt to supply the capital, or the boat and
materials equivalent to the capital, needed by the fisherman, and
to pay him promptly the whole profits. But this, a thing unusual in
ordinary commercial dealings, lays the system open to suspicion;
and it is, in fact, highly objectionable, and replete with hard and
injurious consequences to the fishermen. Take an ordinary case. A
fisherman has made a lucky fishing with an old boat, and finds
himself at the end of the year clear of debt, or near to that
fortunate condition. He has for years used the old boat, as he
knows, at a serious disadvantage, for the old boat and defective
gearing are insufficient to carry the fisherman twenty or more
miles from shore nightly, and at such distances the shoals of
herrings often are. His curer will give him a boat one year old,
and he takes it, agreeing to pay for it what it originally cost the
curer. If the old boat is worth anything, the curer will take it in
part payment. But thus the fisherman at once becomes debtor in
a £100 or thereby, and bound to fish on 'general terms.' He has
probably been so bound all his fishing career. In the same way, a
fish-curer will readily trust a boat to a smart young fisherman
wishing to start on his own account. Of course, the curer takes
care that he has power by writing to seize the boat again, if
necessary for his security.
It is commonly calculated that few men fish over 100 crans of
herrings oftener than in one season out of five and all the chances
are that our fisherman will do little to reduce his debt for some
years to come. If the price is not paid by a lucky fishing in the first
year, but runs unpaid to a second or third, the curer generally
charges the man with deal for the boat, £10 or £14 as may be, and
this year after year; so that, when at last the price is paid, and the
fisherman gets free, the boat has actually cost him £150 or more.
This, however, only occurs with fish-curers who are of a lower
class than the most respectable. The leading men in the trade
generally credit the sums paid as deal in the final settlement of the
boat's price.
The probabilities are that the fisherman will increase the debt year
after year, for some years. Then the curer takes from him a
sale-note of the boat and of his drift. The boat is beached, so as to
preserve the curer's right to it. The nets are sent to his store. The
generosity of the original transaction disappears. It is, of course,
understood that the boat and nets may be redeemed; but in many
cases interest is added to the debt year after year, the deal is
always charged for the boat, and the fisherman loses about 20 per
cent. of his earnings by the 'general terms.' The sense of failure
operates injuriously on the man, perhaps makes him negligent. He
finds the curer disinclined to increase the debt by an additional
advance of money just when money is most necessary to him for
subsistence, and things go on from bad to worse. At last his year
of luck comes round. He fishes 100 or 120 crans, perhaps 200
crans. His debt is reduced so as to be fairly less than the value of
the boat and drift. Then he may go on for another course of the
same risk and indebtedness. But not unfrequently the curer at this
juncture closes the transaction by retaining and appropriating the
boat and drift, and dismissing the man. The appropriation is made
not seldom without any valuation of the property, and the man is
dismissed without discharge or balancing of the debt.
The disadvantages of this system to the fishermen are apparent,
and are really very great. <First>, Responsibility for the whole
expenses of the fishing is cast upon them, while really the boats
and nets are the fishcurer's. <Second>, They are charged with the
maintenance of these boats and nets, in effect to keep the curer's
capital put into their hands as near to its original value as possible.
<Third>, They pay interest in some cases, and not seldom an
arbitrary profit on part of the capital in form of boat's deal.
<Fourth>, They receive 20 per cent. less for their fish than free
fishermen do.
The disadvantages of the fishermen are the advantages of the
fish-curers. But these advantages are not wholly unmixed. The
fish-curer has not only in the majority of cases to find the boats
and nets, but to disburse all the charges of the fishing where the
proceeds of the catch are insufficient to do it, and 'to keep on'
the fishermen by advances for their food and rents. Thus the
aggregate of the debts is a continual strain on the curer's capital,
and payment is as uncertain as the chances of fishermen
individually getting extraordinary hauls of fish. There is still
further the risk of the debtor dying, in which event the debt is
wholly lost beyond the value of the boat and nets. On the death
of a fish-curer recently, his books were found to contain about
£16,000 of debts due to him by fishermen, and these for the most
part valueless. Still, if the system were not advantageous to the
curers, it is plain that they would not conduct their trade in so
questionable a method.
The fisherman's profits in good years are swallowed up by the
charges and drawbacks of bad and indifferent years, unless happily
there be for him a succession of good years. But, considering how
little the average value of the fishing exceeds the actual outlays of
the year, it is not surprising that this great fishing should be carried
on under a mass of debt, spread over fully two-thirds of the fleet.
It is unquestionably a national misfortune that any great enterprise
like the Caithness herring-fishing should be conducted under such
serious disadvantages, and with such unfortunate results to the
large and adventurous class of men who labour in it.
These results are mainly owing to the great error of the fishermen
in accepting the use of capital on terms unreasonably to their own
disadvantage, standing debtor for the whole charges of the fishing,
and submitting to the large deduction of 20 per cent. on the value
of their fish. But they do it with their eyes open; and it is of
contract, partly expressed and partly understood, and regulated by
local custom. If it were desirable to regulate the arrangements of
the trade by Act of Parliament, and if it were provided (1) that no
person could advance money or money's worth to a fisherman,
with the view of engaging in or equipping him for the fishing,
without thereby constituting himself a partner of the fisherman, to
the extent of such advance, proportionately to the value of the
boat, drift of nets, etc. possessed by the fisherman and used in the
fishing, and becoming liable as such partner for a proportional
share of the charges of the fisherman's adventure, and (2) that the
custom of fixing the price 'by general terms' be abolished; the
trade would, it is thought, soon revert to legitimate methods of
dealing. The real capitalist would share the risks and generally
engross them; while the labour and zeal of the individual
fisherman, who may have only his labour and zeal to give, would
find their value in wages or other remuneration. But it is not to be
denied that any such legislation would be extremely arbitrary and
indefensible in principle.
It should here be stated that what the fishermen earn in
white-fishing, and in the winter and Lewis herring-fishing,
is always paid in cash, irrespective of the debt resting owing
in respect of the Caithness herring-fishing. The individual
debtor of the herring-fishing is lost in the five, six, or eight
joint-adventurers who man the boats in the fishings
first mentioned.
The men who hire themselves as boatmen for the herring-fishing
season bargain for wages to be paid in cash at the end of the
season. These wages vary from £4 to £8, according to the skill or
strength of the boatman. Besides the money wages, these men
have lodgings and cooking of their food supplied to them, and
each receives a stone of meal weekly. The money wage is payable
at the close of the fishing, and is always paid in cash. The number
of men so employed is about 4000 at Wick alone.
These men make their engagements with the boatmasters, who, as
already stated, are ostensibly owners of the boats. They used to
experience much hardship by the failure of the boatmasters to pay
them in bad years. To enforce payment was difficult, for the
fish-curers were invariably found to be the owners of the boats and
nets, the sole possessions of the boatmasters. This has come to be
remedied to a great extent by the men refusing to engage without
receiving a guarantee for payment by the curer.
With regard to coopers, they are engaged for terms longer or
shorter, to make barrels at current wages or rates, and payments
are fortnightly and always in cash.
The women employed in gutting and curing the herring are
engaged for the season. They are paid 6d. per barrel, and 1s. 3d.
a day for repacking and filling up the barrels. 1500 of them may
be employed. The payments are made in cash at the end of the
season.
Thus it will be seen that the whole business of the Caithness
fishings is based on cash payments; and if it were not for the
specialties of the herring-fishing, the whole would be sound and
equitable. These specialties operate so extensive an injury, that
they well merit the attention of the Legislature.
It remains to be noticed that the inducements to engage in the
herring-fishing under all the disadvantages set forth are very great.
It has all the precarious and enticing character of a lottery. Every
year a few lucky men fish large hauls, exceeding £200 in value in
the brief fishing season. As a rule, fishermen marry young; and
how can the young fisherman so easily procure the means or
chance of livelihood as by accepting the boat and nets which
the curer so readily offers? But, apart from any such special
prompting, our fishermen, essentially venturous, all too eagerly
incur the debt and risk a life of indebtedness for the chance of
winning the comparative comfort to which a few, a very few, of
their class attain. I know of no class requiring protection from
their own recklessness in these contracts more than do the
fishermen of Caithness.
III.-- EXTRACTS FROM LETTER FROM REV. MR. ARTHUR,
UYEA SOUND, UNST.
UYEA SOUND, 1<st Feb>. 1872.
I have yours of the 26th Jan. '72, making inquiries about the price
and quality of provisions, etc. in the Fair Isle. When I arrived
there in summer '70, my furniture and provisions I had brought
with me from Edinburgh had not arrived, through the gross
misconduct of Mr. Bruce's skipper; so I had no alternative but to
get provisions from his store, the only shop in the island. Tea,
equal to 2s. or 2s. 2d. a pound in Glasgow, which I had tried from
curiosity, was sold to me for 4s.; sugar (East India brown) worth
31/2d. a pound, cost 7d.; soap, the same; coarse biscuit (the only
bread), 4d. a pound. All these articles were, I conceived, about 100
per cent. above the ordinary selling price, or profits, in other
places. I afterwards bought other articles, but I forget the price,
and could not tell the profits.
Meal is the great demand of the island, besides tea, tobacco, etc. I
heard great complaints of the price of the meal, but I needed none.
They said the bere-meal cost about 20s. a boll, but they did not
know the precise price till settling day, once a year or two years.
Then they had to pay whatever Mr. Bruce chose to name, after it
was all eaten. He kept off the price from that of their fish; and
there too, they had to take whatever he named. I found from an
Orkney newspaper that bere-meal was selling there at 13s. a boll.
As the meal was bought with their own money, and the price of
their own fish of last year, I suppose a penny letter could order 100
bolls, shipped at Aberdeen or Kirkwall; the price of carriage to
Lerwick would be, say 6d. a boll; then conveyed to Fair Isle in Mr.
Bruce's own vessel, with a reasonable freight would clear about
one thousand per cent. on the actual outlay or he would pocket £30
for a penny letter.
The people 'were restricted (as you say you have been informed) to
buy from any one else, both by word and writing, and by the fact
that they had nothing to pay it with till July last from 1869-1871.
Mr. Bruce tried to establish a complete monopoly, but he did not
altogether succeed. Others came and undersold him vastly,
though even they were VERY DEAR, and would not sell above
high- water mark. Every time any one came to the island to sell
tea, sugar, coffee, soap, etc., it was reported that any one buying
from such would get their warning to leave the island--the grand
and only punishment known there. Of course, they all bought
more or less secretly or openly and none were turned away I was
at first astounded to find they did not believe a word I said, and I
soon learned not to believe a word they said. I don't mean all
were liars alike, but only a stranger can't tell whom to trust.
One seller came three times to the island that summer(1870)
and took away a good deal of money and goods each time. I
bought bread, sugar, fowls, etc, for Mr Bruce's laws did not apply
to me Good sugar 6d. a pound, would have cost 5d. and 51/2d.
in Glasgow. Soap equally cheap, I was told. Bread 2d. above
Kirkwall price, <e.g.> a 4 lb. loaf 8d. instead of 6d. at Kirkwall.
This man and his boat's crew of two or three men remained six
days on one occasion in good weather selling and collecting
accounts, and took away cattle, etc. It was in regard to him that
the notice was stuck up in the store window <signed> by Mr
Bruce that he advised his tenants not to deal with strangers, nor to
receive them into their houses.
As to the fish, the people complained that they got 9d. a cwt. less
than those at Sumburgh for the same fish; their prices varying
from 2s. 6d. to 3s., about 25 per cent. below the same article
twenty-four miles distant, so that £75 would pay as much fish
there as £100 at Sumburgh. If the Sumburgh fishermen complain
you may guess what the islanders will do if they dare speak out. I
am told the Unst fishermen have got this year 8s. a cwt. for cod
and ling -- the cod-fish of Fair Isle are bought at half-price. When I
was there for my furniture in July last I asked for curiosity, what
they got for their fish as Mr. Bruce was there settling. They said
2s. 9d. and 3s. that would be 5s 6d. and 6s. for cod. Now 6s. is to
8s. as £75 is to £100. If the fish are not paid till a year or two after
they are delivered, the only capital required is the outlay for salt;
and I should think £20 of salt should serve £200 of clear profit on
the fish -- equal to 1000 per cent. on the outlay as
You may think their plots of ground are let cheap with a view to
profit on the fish. The reverse is the fact. The price of land there
is nearly double that of the lots I have priced in Sutherlandshire
and the rest of Shetland The land is the source of the people's
<loudest> and <bitterest complaints>. They say Mr. Bruce has
doubled the rents since he got the island, four or five years ago and
the tacksmen had overtaxed them before he got it. Many have left
the island since then, on the plea of oppression voluntarily
submitting to the only punishment they have to fear.
.........................................
I received letters in October dated July, and none after till I came
for them in March, although the people were fishing every month
in the year, and we could speak the mail steamer going north twice
in three trips. Going south, she is generally under night or very
early in the morning. I have gone to the mail and spoken to the
captain in October, November and December, and my letters and
papers on board were carried fifty miles past me, to be obtained
when anybody coming to the island chose to ask them; and thus I
might obtain them in a few months, OR NEVER. And so of
letters <leaving> the island. Now, a few pounds could establish a
post-office in the island and the mail steamer could deliver a bag
forty or fifty times in the year when going north; indeed always,
unless she passed in a fog, or in the dark, or in a storm from a
south or south-east wind. In a north wind, the harbour is perfectly
calm, and the island shelters the steamer.
IV.--EXTRACT FROM LETTER BY WM. MOUAT, ESQ. OF
GARTH, ADVOCATE, TO MACCULLOCH, AUTHOR OF 'THE
HIGHLANDS AND WESTERN ISLANDS OF SCOTLAND'
(DISCOVERED AMONGST THE GARTH PAPERS IN MARCH
1872).
<2d November> 1820.
. . . With regard to the points in question, I think, if I can make
myself understood, I should be able to satisfy you; but our mode
of holding, or rather of describing property, is so different from
anything practised either in England or Scotland, that I suspect it
will be necessary to take a very elementary view before I can be
sure of succeeding.
In the first place, then, there are no <Manorial rights>, or anything
analogous to them, either in the person of Lord Dundas or of any
other person. The reason why you have heard his Lordship
spoken of as so universal a proprietor in the commons is, that
although his is only a third or fourth rate property, it is so much
scattered, that there are few commons (scattales or scattholes) in
the country in which he has not something to say, <simply,
however, as a proprietor>. The Crown is the universal superior,
and all the land is freehold. It is true that Lord Dundas lately
possessed over all the country, and does still possess over
some few estates, the right to the Crown rents. These were the
feu-duties exigible from the feued lands, and a payment called
scatt, exigible both from Udal and feued land; but this was simply
a right to collect the payments, and did not infer any right of
superiority. Etymologically, scatt certainly seems to have some
connection with <scattholds>, but practically it has none
whatever, so far as the receiver is concerned, and is as to him
simply a feu-duty. The opinion of the country, however, is so far in
favour of the etymological view, that it is generally conceived that
all towns (<i.e.> townships) paying scatt have right to a share of
the commons, while those who do not have none; but this point
has never been settled by any judicial authority.
In the second place, you are mistaken in supposing that tenants
pay no rent for the scattholds. Every township its own scatthold,
the boundaries of which are, or ought to be, known. I say 'ought
to be,' because I believe in many instances a knowledge of the
marches has been lost. Any scatthold, therefore, is common
merely as respects the township to which it belongs; and it is the
exclusive property of the owners of that township, or, more strictly
speaking, forms a part of the township itself. Each township
consists of a certain number of merks. The following history of
the origin of this term (which is our universal denomination of
land, both in letting it to tenants and in conveying it from one
proprietor to another) may help to explain its nature. It seems,
then, to have arisen in the times when rents were fixed by public
authority, each township being valued, <in cumulo>, at so many
merks of money as it was considered worth. The share of each
landlord was then naturally said to consist of so many merks,
because the rent was in fact his whole interest, the farmer being,
according to the old Danish law, the real proprietor, and the
landlord only a sort of lord of the manor. The term, by a very
easy change, came, with the changes of laws, to apply to that
portion of land which had originally paid a money merk of rent,
but did not, and does not to this day, denote any particular spot or
measurement, but merely such proportion of the whole township
as had been equivalent to one money merk of rent, when the whole
was valued at a given number. This hypothesis, for I acknowledge
it is little more, at least gives a result corresponding precisely to
our present idea of a merk of land, and also accounts for the great
variety of contents which we find in merk, since, to be equal in
value, they must have been of very different extent in different
situations. The number of merks in each town is known from old
records and traditions, or, practically, from the sum of all the
proprietors. Thus, if in the town of M. 40 merks belong to A., 30
to B., and 20 to C., then is M. a town of 40 + 30 + 20 = 90 merks.
It is of no consequence here whether M. contains five acres or five
hundred, 40-90ths of the whole belong to A., and 30-90ths to B.,
etc. And, on the other hand, the number of merks might be
double, triple, or in any other proportion, without at all altering
the extent or state of the property, except that the interest of each
proprietor would be expressed by proportionally higher figures.
A. would have 80-180ths, B. 60-180ths, and so forth. In these
circumstances, if a landlord lets to a tenant any given number of
merks, it is just giving him a fractional share, of which the total
number of merks in the town is the denominators, and the number
let the numerator. A tenant taking ten merks in the above
supposed town of M., would just have right to 10-90ths of the
corn land, 10-90ths of the meadow land, 10-90ths of the stinted
pasture within the dyke, and 10-90ths of the unstinted pasture, or
'scatthold,' without the dyke. But the rent is charged at so much
per merk -- <Ergo>, the tenant does pay rent for the scatthold,
Q.E.D.!!
I do not, however, allege that the rent thus paid is anything like
what it might easily be under a better system.
That the rents were anciently fixed by public authority, is, I
believe, an established fact, and there is reason to believe that
the practice continued long after the transference of this country
from Norway to Scotland, when, of course, it ceased to be law.
This practice, and the long period for which both rents and
improvements were stationary, had produced so strong an
impression upon our habits of thinking on this subject, that, at
so late a period as to be distinctly within my own recollection,
landlords, in general, had no clear practical confidence in their
own right to demand a direct rise of rent, and, under this feeling,
resorted, in many instances, to indirect methods of doing that
which they had a right to have done openly and avowedly.
The sight of this sort of thing, without an understanding of the
circumstances and habits of thinking which lie to it, gave
superficial observers an idea that much oppression and injustice
was exercised towards the tenantry, and produced much of that
obloquy (some of which may possibly have fallen in your way)
which has been thrown upon the Shetland landholders.
This idea has now, however, completely vanished, and many
Shetland proprietors have let their lands at a raised money rent,
without reserving any further claim upon the tenants: and if all
have not done so, it arises from other causes, and not from any
feeling of the kind described above, or from any inclination to
take undue advantages.
As to your question why the scattholds remain undivided, the
general backwardness of improvement, and want of agricultural
skill and capital, are the immediate causes. The present tenantry
are so ignorant of the means of turning these commons to any
proper account, that the fee-simple of most of them would, under
the present management, hardly pay a common land-measurer for
surveying them, far less could they bear any litigation. There are,
however, many considerable scattholds at present the exclusive
property of one or a few persons. Improved management has
begun, and will probably take root, first in such situations, and
afterwards, when its advantages are seen, and a sufficient number
of people trained to practise it has arisen, it will spread over those
lands where the difficulty and expense of divisions have to be
previously incurred. Your alternative of levying a rent of so much
per head of beasts pasturing, would not answer, because, as I have
already endeavoured to explain, the tenants, in paying a rent per
merk, pay for their scattholds as well as for their other ]and.
Your other suggestion, however, numerically limiting the stock
according to the rent, or, which is the same thing, according to the
moths, would be highly beneficial both to tenants and landlords. If
you ask, Why then is it not carried into effect? I can only answer
that we have not long turned our attention the way of agricultural
improvement, and have only begun to discover that what is
difficult is not always impossible.
V. -- EXCERPT FROM REPORT OF MR. PETERKIN, GENERAL INSPECTOR OF BOARD
SUPERVISION OF THE POOR IN SCOTLAND.
<Shop Dealings with Paupers>.--The Board are aware of the
constantly recurring reference I have had to make for many
years to the tendency of Inspectors and members of Parochial
Boards, here and there, over the whole of Scotland, to traffic
with paupers, by furnishing them with goods of all kinds, and
with lodgings, and intercepting the parochial allowances in
payment thereof. On this subject there has, since the institution
of the Board, been a constant struggle; for here and there, all
over Scotland, in the large towns as well as in rural and remote
parishes, the practice prevailed, and was occasionally discovered--
generally by accident. The Board long ago expressed decided
opinions on the impropriety of the practice. Now in Shetland, it
so happens that almost the only persons who are practically the
administrators of the Poor Law are more or less directly or
indirectly interested in the local trade -- in the fish-curing, or in
the shops, or in the stores of one kind or another. In one parish
the Poor Law is practically administered by these merchants and
fish-curers, and to their shops the paupers must of necessity go to
make their purchases. In two other parishes nearly the same thing
occurs. There is probably no parish in Shetland, where, to a
greater or less extent, this is not the case; and to find there persons
capable of transacting business, and of acting as members of
Boards or Inspectors of Poor, who are not, in some way or other,
directly or indirectly interested in a shop, or connected with a
shopkeeper, is perhaps impossible. Where the line is to be drawn,
when all interest in the business of the shop will cease, is beyond
my powers of discovery. Even among the more recent
appointments of Inspectors we have one who is personally
unobjectionable, having no shop; but his mother keeps "<the
shop>" of the district. Another was a shopkeeper; and on his
appointment as Inspector he gave up his shop and goods, and with
them, of course, it was to be supposed all interest in the business;
but he made them all over to his niece, <a girl fifteen>! And the
third, having ceased to keep a shop, acts as agent for his brother and
his partners, who have shops and stores and curing stations; but at
present he sells nothing. These three men seem to me in
themselves to be really as competent as can be for their duties, and
are, I believe, as good and efficient men as can be found in their
respective parishes. In another parish we have as an Inspector the
paid shopman or servant of the firm who has "<the store>." In
another parish the chairman of the Board has "<the shop>," and
his brother has "<the other shop>." In short, everything in
Shetland gravitates towards "<the shop>." To it the child takes a
dozen eggs in a morning, and obtains for the family breakfast what
is called a "<corn o' tea>;" to it the young woman takes her
knitted hosiery, and in exchange will receive either tea or some
article or material of dress; to it the pauper takes the pass-book, or
pay-ticket of the parish, and on that guarantee will get the "<corn
o' tea>," or the "<corn o meal>;' and he who supplies the goods
over the counter is almost certain to be a member of the Board, or
a near relative of one who is, or of the Inspector, -- he may even be
the chairman of the Board himself.
'I do not pretend to be able to offer any suggestions to remedy such
a state of matters, but too rely state the facts as they have come
under my observation. I have, however, no doubt that the poors'
rates in Shetland are, to a great extent, but the natural results of
such parochial arrangements as I have referred to.'
VI.--NOTES OF PRICES PAID BY JAMES METHUEN, LEITH, FOR (CURED) SALT
FISH, FREE ON BOARD AT LERWICK, FROM 1853 TO 1871.
Year Ling Cod Tusk Saith
1853 £20, 10s. £18 £20. 10s. £10. 10s.
1854-5 .... .... .... ....
1856 .... £15 .... £11, 10s. to £12
1857 £21 to £22 £18 to £17 £19, 5s. £12, 10s.
1858 £21, 10s. £16, 10s. .... £12
1859 £20 to £22 £15, 10s. .... £10 to £11
1860 £19 to £21 £17. 15s £20 £13
1861 £18 to £17, 10s. £17, 10s. £18 £12 to £13
1862 £17 to £18 £15 to £16 £17 £8, 10s.
1863 £18 to £20, 10s. £18 £20 £9
1864 £18 to £21 £17 to £19 £21, 5s. £12
1865 £23 to £24 £21 to £22 £23 £15
1866 £23 to £25, 10s. £19 to £23 £24 £13, 10s.
1867 £17 to £18 £16 £17 £7
1868 £18 to £19 £16 .... ....
1869 £20 to £20, 10s. £17 £18, 10s. £11
1870 £21, 10s. to £22 £18 £20 ....
1871 £22, 10s. to £24 £20 .... £13, 10s.
Priced per ton
VII.--ABSTRACTS OF SETTLEMENTS PRODUCED BY MR.
GARRIOCK.
1. ABSTRACT of SETTLEMENT with FAROE FISHERMEN by
GARRIOCK & CO.
Vessel Earning Paid in Lines, Clothes,
Cash Hooks Meal, etc.,
and Stores for Self and
used on Family
Board
'Mizpah' 1870. £585 2 1 £374 13 6 £81 7 11 £129 0 8
'Mizpah' 1871. £328 19 11 £198 9 7 £63 3 4 £67 7 0
'Sylvia' 1870. £427 19 2 £239 17 0 £71 7 9 £16 4 5
2. ABSTRACT OF SETTLEMENT with CREWS of
FISHERMEN at DALE and WALLS -- Season 1871.
Name of Crew Gross Earning Lines, Nets, Salt, Meal, and Goods Amount paid in Cash
<6-oared boats>
James Twatt and crew £66 8 6 £16 4 4 £50 4 2
John Jeromson and
crew 88 16 111/2 18 4 4 70 12 71/2
Wm. Jameson and crew 74 11 11 36 12 11 37 19 0
Fraser Henry and crew 100 0 41/2 20 1 61/2 79 18 10
Thomas Laurenson
and crew 100 2 7 27 14 6 72 8 1
Jacob Christie and crew 96 6 6 15 2 71/2 81 3 101/2
36 men Total £526 6 10 £134 0 3 £392 6 7
<4-oared boats>
Scott Williamson
and crew £21 2 11/2 £9 8 91/2 £11 13 4
Chas. Williamson
and crew 33 2 11/2 19 16 81/2 13 5 6
William Smith and
crew 21 17 7 10 2 31/2 11 15 31/2
Jas. Tait and crew 34 3 41/2 7 19 21/2 26 4 2
Geo. Georgeson
and crew 16 0 7 .... 16 0 7
Thomas Moffat and
crew 18 15 41/2 4 14 81/2 14 0 8
Magnus Thomson
and crew*
Thos. Thomson
and crew*
Mat. Thomson and
crew* 158 11 0 42 18 9 115 12 3
34 men Total £829 19 1 £229 0 81/2 £600 18 41/2
* 4 boats with 3 men each = 12 men
AVERAGE.
Earning Goods, etc. Cash
36 men in six-oared
boats, each £14 12 5 £3 14 5 £10 17 11
34 men in four-oared
boats, each £8 18 7 £2 15 103/4 £6 2 81/4
Minutes of Evidence
taken before the
Commission on the Truck System
(Shetland)
Lerwick: Monday, January 1, 1872.
Mr Guthrie, Commissioner.
<Mr. Guthrie>.-I have come here, as a Commissioner appointed
under the Truck Act of 1870, to inquire into the system of Truck,
and to report upon that and upon the operation of all Acts or
provisions of Acts prohibiting the truck system; and I have power
under the Act, as it says, 'to investigate all offences against such
Acts which have occurred within the period of two years
immediately preceding the passing of this Act (that was, in 1870),
and to make such report on the subject of the truck system, and of
the existing laws in relation thereto, as they (the Commissioners)
shall deem proper and useful'. I wish all that are here, and all that
are interested in the subject of this inquiry, to remember that the
object for which I am sent here is simply to find out the truth, and
the whole truth, about the way in which the system of truck, or, if
it is not properly called the system of truck, the system of paying
wages and the price of productions,-which is said to prevail in
Shetland, operates; and I trust and believe that I shall receive from
all of you every assistance in ascertaining the truth with regard to
that matter. I wish every person in Shetland, and every person
interested in the matter, to bear in mind, first of all, that I come
here with no formed opinion as to the operation of that system,
either on the one side or on the other. I come here to find out the
truth; and I believe that, so far as Shetland is concerned, the
Government which has sent me here is in exactly the same
position, and has not formed any opinion. It is simply anxious to
find out what is the truth about the system which is alleged to
prevail here; and I trust, as I have already said, that I shall receive
every assistance from everybody in prosecuting that inquiry. I
have to thank some gentlemen, to whom I have already made
application for information, for the courteous way in which they
have responded to my application. The interests of some of them
may be supposed to be affected by the inquiry, but I hope that they
and all of you will come forward frankly and tell me what you
know about the matter. It is right, however, to mention, that the
Act of Parliament under which I am sent here, furnishes me with
special and very stringent powers with regard to the obtaining of
information. In particular, I am empowered, among other things,
to examine witnesses upon oath; to compel them to answer such
questions, as may be put to them; to compel the production of
documents; to order the inspection of any real or personal property;
and a summons requiring the attendance of a witness must be
obeyed just in the same way as if it were issued by any of Her
Majesty's superior courts. I hope and trust, however, that it will be
unnecessary to exercise any of these powers. I think the people of
Shetland have sufficient intelligence and good sense to make the
enforcement of these powers quite unnecessary. I rely upon their
good sense and courtesy to allow the truth to be ascertained,
without any difficulty or any resistance or attempt at concealment.
I may mention-although perhaps in this country it is less
necessary-that the Act of Parliament gives me power, when any
person examined as a witness makes a full and true disclosure
touching all matters with respect to which he is examined, to give
him a certificate stating that he has made such a full and true
disclosure; and that certificate has the effect of protecting him
against any civil or criminal procedure which might be taken
against him in consequence of anything that he speaks to. Further,
I have to express a hope that no person who is interested in the
system that is said to prevail here will in any way attempt to
interfere with this inquiry by intimidating any witness who is to be
called before me, or exercising any undue or improper influence
upon him. If any instance of such intimidation or improper
influence takes place, I hope the party on whom it is attempted to
be exercised will at once make the circumstance known to me,
whether that intimidation is exercised by a threat of dismissal from
employment or a refusal of work, or in whatever other way it may
be done. All these things would be a serious violation of the law,
and would be visited with severe punishment. I shall be ready to
receive any information that any person may wish to give on the
subject of the inquiry; and if any one wishes to give evidence or to
suggest any point for inquiry, I have to ask that they will give that
information privately, as the inquiry itself, so far as the taking
down of evidence is concerned, must, by the terms of the Act, be
held in public.
Lerwick, January 1, 1872. CATHERINE WINWICK, examined
1. You live in Lerwick?-Yes.
2. You are in the habit of knitting for Mr. Linklater?-Yes.
3. For any one else?-No.
4. Do you supply your own wool?-No.
5. Where do you get it?-I knit Mr. Linklater's own worsted.
6. Do you get a supply of it at his shop?-Yes.
[Page 2]
7. Do you pay for it when you get it?-No; he pays me for the
knitting.
8. Are you paid in money?-Some in money and some in goods.
9. What is your system of dealing? When you go with anything
you have knitted to Mr. Linklater's shop, do you put a price upon
it?-No; he gives what he thinks right.
10. He puts the price upon it?-Yes.
11. Does he pay you that price usually in money?-Part in money
and part in goods. He does not pay all in money.
12. Do you keep a pass-book with him?-No.
13. Do you get all the money you want?-I always get what money
I ask for; but I never ask for all in money. I have asked for a few
shillings in money, and I have always got it.
14. Why did you not ask for the whole in money?-Because he
was not in the habit of giving all money for his knitting.
15. Do you mean that you knew if you had asked for it you would
not have got it?-I don't think I would have got it all in money; I
never asked him for it all, but I always got what I asked for. If I
asked him for a few shillings of money, he always gave it to me.
16. Is a settlement always made when you bring your work
back?-Sometimes it is, and sometimes not perhaps sometimes I
have something in his hands to get, and perhaps sometimes I am
due him a little.
17. Due him for what?-For anything. Perhaps he might give me
something sometimes when I did not have it to get, if I asked him
for it.
18. Did you ever wish to buy your goods at any other place?-No;
I could not buy my goods at any other place.
19. Were you always content with what you got?-Yes; I was
always content.
20. Then if you wanted money, it would be for some other purpose,
such as paying rent?-Yes.
21. Or for provisions?-Yes.
22. And you always got what you wanted for these purposes?-
Yes. When I asked for a few shillings of money for knitting, I
always got it.
23. Do you live by yourself?-Yes.
24. And not in family with any others?-No.
25. Do you make all your living by knitting?-Yes.
26. You have no other means of getting money to pay your rent?-
No.
27. You pay rent for a room?-Yes.
28. And you have always got enough from the employer to whom
you sell your work to pay your room rent and your food?-Yes. It
had to be enough, for I could not get anything else.
29. Do you mean by that, that you would have liked to have had
more money to spend upon food?-Yes.
30. But you could only get goods?-Yes.
31. How much do you earn by knitting in a week or in a month?-I
suppose perhaps about 10s. in a month. I would knit a shawl in a
month, and the merchant would allow me that sum for knitting it.
32. Would it take you a month to knit a shawl, working at nothing
else?-Yes. Of course I would not be always at it. People cannot
sit and knit continually; but it would take a month to make it,
working in an ordinary way.
33. When you take that shawl to the shop, price of say 10s. is put
upon it, how much of that do you got in money, and how much in
goods?-I have knitted a shawl for 10s, and I have got 5s. in
money on it from Mr. Linklater.
34. Is that the usual proportion of money you get?-No, not
always. Sometimes I don't get so much as that.
35. Did you ever ask for more?-No; I think never asked for any
more on one shawl.
36. Supposing you were going with a shawl of that value what
goods would you get? Take the last time you went, for instance:
what did you get?-Cottons, or such things as I would be
requiring. The last time I was there I bought nine yards of cotton
at 81/2d. a yard.
37. Was that to make a dress with?-No; it was white cotton.
38. Did you ask for that?-Yes.
39. Did you want it for any particular purpose?-Yes; I wanted it.
40. What else did you get?-That is all I remember getting at that
time.
41. Did you get the rest in money?-Yes.
42. Have you any reason to complain of the quality of the goods
you get?-No, I have not.
43. Would you wish to go to any other shop if you got money?-I
have no reason to leave Mr. Linklater, for he has always given me
money as well as I could have got it from any other merchant, I
believe.
44. What arrangement do you make about the supplying of the
wool?-We make no arrangement.
45. Then you are supplied with the wool; and the 10s. is the price
not of the shawl, but of your work upon it?-Yes.
46. Is that the usual way in which the knitting trade is carried on by
the women in Shetland?-Yes.
47. Do they generally get the wool supplied to them that way?-I
believe they do. At least it is the way with some of them. They
won't want it.
48. They don't buy the wool themselves?-They are not able to
buy the wool.
49. Have you worked for other merchants than Mr. Linklater?-
No; only for him. I have knitted a few things for a lady, but I never
knitted to any other merchant than Mr. Linklater.
50. Then you don't know how the other merchants deal with the
women who knit for them?-No; I cannot say anything about that.
51. Would you prefer to sell your goods to a private lady, or to a
stranger counting to Shetland, rather than have to take them to a
merchant?-If I could get all money for them, I would prefer that.
52. Supposing there was a merchant here who paid for goods
altogether in money, would you prefer to take your hosiery to
him?-Yes; if I could get all money, I would prefer that.
53. Is there no such person?-No; there is no such person here as
that. A lady may buy a thing or two at a time, and give money for
them, but that could not be a general thing.
54. How do you know that you cannot got money from the
merchants? Is it because you have attempted to get it, or simply
because you have a sort of understanding to that effect?-The
merchants don't allow all money for the knitting.
55. Have they told you that?-Yes.
56. Who has told you?-Just the whole of them. None of them
pay wholly in money for anything.
57. But who has told you that? I think you said you had never been
refused?-I never was refused a few shillings on anything by Mr.
Linklater. When I took home work to him and asked him for a few
shillings of money, I always got it.
58. But you would rather have it all in money?-Yes.
59. And you cannot get it?-No.
60. How do you know that?-They won't give it to us. If we buy
worsted ourselves, and knit the work, and take it to them, they
won't give any money at all.
61. Have you tried that?-Yes.
62. You have knitted a shawl with your own worsted, and gone to
them to sell it; and they would not allow money on it?-Yes.
63. Has Mr. Linklater done that?-Yes.
64. Did he refuse to give you money for that shawl?-Yes.
65. But he would pay for the shawl in goods?-Yes, if I would sell
it.
66. When did that happen?-I could not just remember the time;
but it has been often.
67. You did that yourself?-Yes, I have done that myself; and I
have got shawls from friends to sell, and have gone out with them,
and the merchants would not give money on them.
68. Is there anything else you want to say?-No.
[Page 3]
Lerwick, January 1, 1872, JANET IRVINE, examined.
69. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.
70. Your mother is a widow?-Yes.
71. Do you support yourself by knitting?-Yes; and partly by
working outside at the fish.
72. What have you to do with the fish?-I help to cure them in the
fish-curing establishment.
73. For whom do you knit?-Sometimes for myself, and
sometimes for Miss Mary Hutchison.
74. Is she a dealer in hosiery?-Yes; she knits shawls herself, and
sends them south.
75. Is she an agent?-Yes.
76. For whom?-I think she is agent for Mr. White, in Edinburgh.
77. Do you sometimes work for others?-No; not very often. I
sometimes work for myself when I have any time. I knit a veil or a
necktie, but in the summer 1 have not much time for that.
78. Do you knit these things for the purpose of selling them?-
Yes.
79. Do you sometimes sell to the merchants in Lerwick?-Yes.
80. To whom?-To any one who is buying anything.
81. Do you generally get money for your shawls?-No; I got
money from Miss Hutchison when I ask for it.
82. Do you get the price all in money from her?-When I want it
all in money, I get it all in money, and when I want any other thing,
she gives it to me.
83. Do you generally ask for it all in money from her?-Yes; I
generally ask for it in money, because that is the only way we have
to get it.
84. Does she deal in goods?-No. She generally brings home a
little tea.
85. Does she only deal in tea?-In nothing else, so far as I know.
86. Then you sometimes get payment from her in tea?-Yes.
When I ask it, I get it; but when I ask money, I get money.
87. When you sell to the merchants in Lerwick, do you get
payment in money?-No; I never asked it, because I know they
would not give it to us, as it is not the custom. They do not give it
here.
88. Do you get part of it in money?-No; I get no money.
89. You have to take it all in goods?-Yes.
90. Do you prefer to get it in goods or in money?-I would like to
get money if I could; but I can't get it.
91. And Miss Hutchison is not always ready to buy, from you?-
No; she does not buy anything but her own. She brings home
worsted, or buys worsted here, and I get it from her to knit.
92. What you sell to the merchants you knit with your own
worsted?-Yes.
93. Where do you buy your worsted?-From the shops.
94. Which shops?-I used to buy from Mr. Brown, but he is not
alive now; and I buy from Mr. Sinclair.
95. Do you pay ready-money for your worsted when you buy it?-
Yes.
96. Do you not get worsted from the shops to knit into articles for
the merchants?-No.
97. You sell to the shops only when Miss Hutchison has not got
work for you?-Yes. It is only when I have it of my own that I sell
to the shops.
98. Have you asked for money instead of goods at any of the
shops?-No; I never asked for it.
99. Your sister also works in the same way?-Yes; she knits, but
she does not work outside. She is not here to-day.
100. When was the last time you took anything of your own
knitting to a shop to sell? Was it long ago?-No; it is not long,-
perhaps about two or three weeks ago.
101. What was it?-A necktie.
102. Where did you take it?-I took it to Mr. Sinclair's. I could
not get it sold that night, because he was not in, and the servants
could not take it in his absence. I took it home with me.
103. What did you do with it?-The woman who dressed it sold it
for me at Mr. Sinclair's. She generally dresses things, and
sometimes sells them for me.
104. What is dressing?-Getting them sorted for sale. After being
knitted, they are washed and dressed and starched.
105. Do you give the woman who dresses the articles a
commission to sell them?-Yes; she sells them for me.
106. Why is that?-Because she is generally in the way of doing it.
She can do it better than I can.
107. Do you mean that she can make a better bargain?-She
dresses goods for the merchants, and sometimes she sells them too.
She sold that article for me.
108. Who is the woman?-Mrs. William Arcus; she lives at the
Docks.
109. What was the price put upon that necktie which she sold?-
Eighteenpence.
110. What did you get for it?-I just got anything I required.
111. What did you require at that time?-I got a little tea, and the
rest in cotton.
112. Did you want the tea?-Yes.
113. Have you sometimes asked the merchants for goods which
they would not give you?-No.
114. When you go to a merchant to sell a shawl, can you get any
kind of goods you want?-I don't sell any shawls, because I don't
have any of my own. I have not had any of my own for a long
time.
115. But when you go to sell any of the goods you have knitted,
can you get anything you want?-I cannot get money, but I can get
anything else, except worsted. They won't give it.
116. Will they not give you worsted for your knitted goods?-No.
They won't give it for the hosiery. They want money for the
worsted.
117. Do they give any reason for that?-I don't know. They say it
is a money article.
118. Does that mean ready-money?-Yes.
119. It is cotton or tea you generally get?-Yes; or any other small
thing except money. We can get anything except it.
120. You work at other things; so that I suppose you have money
from your wages in the fish-curing establishment for the purpose
of paying your rent, and things that you must pay in money?-Yes.
121. You get your wages there in money?-Yes; I get money for
that.
122. You work for Mr. Leask?-Yes.
123. He does not keep a store of any kind?-No; he has no store,
but he keeps a shop.
124. Have you to take goods for your wages there?-No; I can
either get money or goods, whichever I want.
125. But what do you do in point of fact? Do you take money or
do you take goods from Mr. Leask's shop?-I take money.
126. Always?-Not always. I take other things too, because they
keep everything there that is required.
127. You have no complaint to make about that?-No.
128. You are quite content to go to Mr. Leask's shop for what you
want?-Yes.
129. When you buy things there, you pay your money across the
counter?-Yes.
130. You have got that money from the pay-clerk previously?-
Yes.
131. Where is that money paid to you?-In the shop.
132. In which shop?-In Mr. Leask's shop. We get it in the office,
and we pay it in the shop. He has two shops there.
133. Is the office at the Docks?-No; it is in the town.
134. Are you expected to go to Mr. Leask's shop when you get
your wages?-No; we can go anywhere we like.
135. How long in the year do you work for Mr. Leask?-
Sometimes, when the vessels get fish early, we begin soon. We
begin in the spring.
136. Will you work there for six months?-Some [Page 4] times
longer. We sometimes begin in spring, and work until after
Martinmas.
137. During all that time you won't do much knitting?-No.
138. But you get your wages every week?-Yes.
139. How much do you get?-1s. a day.
140. And that is paid weekly on Saturdays at the office?-Yes.
141. Do you take that money home?-Yes; what I don't pay away.
142. You perhaps want something on the Saturday, and go into the
shop for it?-Yes; what I want I go into the shop for.
143. How much of it do you generally take home after making your
purchases?-I cannot say.
144. As a general thing, do you spend the half of it in the shop?-
Yes; I spend the half of it.
145. Every week?-No; sometimes it is more, and sometimes less.
146. Have you ever been told that you ought to go to the shop?-
No.
147. Or that you are expected to go there?-No.
148. Would you still be employed there in the same way although
you went and bought your goods elsewhere?-They don't bid any
of their people buy out of the shop. They just please themselves.
Mr. Leask just gives the money, and he does not care where you
buy from.
Lerwick, January 1, 1872, Mrs. CHRISTINA WILLIAMSON,
examined.
149. You are a widow, and live in the Widows' Asylum in
Lerwick?-Yes.
150. Are you in the habit of knitting goods for sale?-Yes.
151. Do you knit for any particular merchant?-No; I knit for
myself.
152. Do you buy your own wool?-Yes; I generally get wool, and
get a woman to spin it for me.
153. Who is that woman?-Mrs. Irvine, Burn's Close.
154. Is that the mother of the last witness?-Yes.
155. Do you buy the wool from a farmer?-Yes.
156. And then you knit it for yourself, and take the shawls and sell
them?-Yes.
157. Do you do that upon an order, or just upon chance?-Just
upon chance.
158. Who do you generally sell to?-I have some unsold just now.
The last one is unsold.
159. How long have you had it?-I have had that one lying for a
twelvemonth.
160. Why don't you sell it?-Because I can't get money for it.
161. Who have you asked to buy it?-I have asked none lately.
162. Who have you asked at all?-I have asked no one in the town.
163. Why do you know you would not get money?-Because it is
not the custom to give it, and therefore did not ask it.
164. Have you ever asked money for your shawls?-Yes; often.
165. From whom have you asked money?-I have asked it from
the whole of the merchants in the town, but they are not used to
giving money.
166. Who are the merchants in the town?-Mr. Sinclair and Mr.
Tulloch, and Mr. Laurenson.
167. Are these all you remember?-Yes.
168. Have you sold any shawls to any of these gentlemen lately?-
Yes; I sold one to Mr. Laurenson about three months ago.
169. What was the price put upon it?-30s.
170. Was that what you call fine knitting?-Yes.
171. How were you paid for it?-I got goods for it.
172. Did you get no money at all?-No.
173. Did you ask to get some of it in money?-No; I did not ask
that.
174. Did you want to get the goods?-Yes; because the goods
suited.
175. What goods did you get?-I got bread.
176. Does Mr. Laurenson sell bread in his shop?-Yes.
177. Was there an account run for that?-Yes.
178. What else did you?-Just all kinds of things I was using.
179. Was it all provisions that you got?-No; there was light and
plenty of things.
180. Any clothes?-No clothes.
181. Was there any account due before you sold that shawl?-No.
182. Did you get all these goods away with you at the time?-No; I
just ran an account for them.
183. Have you got a pass-book?-I have got one, but I don't have
it with me.
184. Was that pass-book going on with Laurenson before you sold
him the shawl?-No; it just commenced when I sold the shawl.
185. Does that account still continue?-Yes.
186. Do you remember how much it comes to now?-No; I don't
remember exactly.
187. Do you live in the Widows' Asylum?-Yes.
188. Are you not provided for there?-No.
189. You have to get your own food?-Yes.
190. You got what you wanted on that occasion from Mr.
Laurenson?-Yes.
191. Have you sold anything to him since then?-No.
192. Have you sold anything to any one else?-No.
193. Did you not knit a shawl for' Mr. Tulloch about a month
ago?-Yes.
194. You did not sell it to him?-No; I did not sell it.
195. Did he supply the wool in that case?-Yes.
196. Was that because you had not wool of your own?-Yes.
197. What did he charge for the wool?-He just gave me £1 for
knitting the shawl.
198. He supplied the wool, and agreed to pay you for knitting the
shawl?-Yes.
199. Were you paid that £1?-Yes.
200. In money?-No.
201. Did you ask for money?-No.
202. Are you sure you did not ask for it in money?-Yes; I am sure
of that.
203. Did you get any part of it in money?-No.
204. What did you get?-Just any clothes that I was needing.
205. When you went into the shop with the shawl, what passed
between you?-I said, 'Here is your shawl Mr. Tulloch.' He asked
me what I was wanting.
206. Did you say you wanted money?-No.
207. What did you say?-That I was wanting some goods.
208. Did you mention the goods you wanted?-Yes.
209. What were they?-I believe I took 6 yards of white cotton at
6d. a yard; I also took 41/4 yards of cloth at 4s. 2d. a yard, with
which to make waterproof clothing. I got some small things with
the balance but I don't remember what they were.
210. But the shawl was to be £1; the cotton came to 3s., and the
waterproof cloth to 17s. 81/2d., so that you were rather in Mr.
Tulloch's debt: was that left standing till the next time?-Yes.
211. Then you are to knit him something more?-Yes.
212. You have another order just now?-Yes.
213. Are you working at it?-I have not begun to it just yet.
214. Have you anything else to sell just now?-Yes.
215. Is it something you have knitted with your own wool?-Yes;
but I have sent it south.
216. Is that because you expect to get money there?-Yes; I have
sent it to an old neighbour woman of mine who is now in Thurso.
217. Is she a person who makes a practice of dealing in such
things?-No; she is just an acquaintance of mine.
218. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.
[Page 5]
Lerwick, January 1, 1872, ELIZABETH ROBERTSON, examined.
219. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.
220. Do you live alone?-I live with my aged stepmother.
221. Who do you work for?-For the last six years I have knitted
for myself, but before that I used to knit for the merchants in
general. I knitted for the late Mr. Laurenson, and Mr. G. Harrison,
and Mr. Tulloch, and Mr. Linklater,-in short, for almost all the
merchants.
222. But that was six years ago?-Yes.
223. When you knitted for the merchants, was the wool supplied to
you by them?-Yes.
224. Did you pay for it when you got it out, or when you were paid
for your work upon it?-I was just paid for my work.
225. How much would you be able to make in a week at that sort
of work?-I could not exactly say how much. I was in delicate
health; but in some weeks I might have earned 1s. 6d. a day, and in
some weeks perhaps less.
226. Was that the only thing you were working at?-Yes. The
only sort of knitting I had was veils and shawls.
227. But was knitting the only thing you were employed at that
time?-That was the only thing I was ever employed at in my life.
228. Then, on an average, you earned from 5s. to 6s. a week?-
Yes; or from 4s. to 5s.
229. How often were you paid?-Just when I asked for any sort of
goods that were in the shop.
230. Would you go once a week or once a fortnight to the shop for
payment?-Yes; perhaps I would. I just went as I was done with
the work which they required.
231. Did you get a book?-No. I never kept a book.
232. How did you know how much was due to you?-I just
depended on the truth of the gentlemen's statements when they
added up my accounts.
233. They kept an account in a book?-Yes.
234. Was that the same with all the dealers?-Yes; all that I dealt
with before the last six years.
235. Did these merchants supply you with all kinds of goods?-
Only with soft goods, and tea and sugar.
236. What did you do for your provisions, such as meal and
bread?-I had often to buy such things as I could get, and sell them
again at half the price to anybody in the row who would take them
from me.
237. Were these the goods you got from the merchants?-Yes.
238. Could you not get anything from them you wanted, except
what you have mentioned?-Sometimes I would get a sixpence
and sometimes a shilling, but just occasionally.
239. Was that given you as a favour?-Yes, and because they
knew I really needed it. It was a mere favour.
240. Were you supporting your stepmother at that time?-No; not
at that time. I had only myself to support.
241. But you had no other means of support than your knitting?-
No other means at all.
242. Did you ask for money at that time?-Yes; I always asked for
money, because I required it so much.
243. Was it generally on a Saturday that you were with?-I did not
make any particular settlement; it was just any time that I went.
244. When you got a settlement and took home some of these soft
goods, did you go to your neighbours, or to the baker's or
provision dealer's shop, and ask for what you wanted in the way of
food?-No; but any neighbours that knew me would take from me
some of the goods I had, and perhaps give them to a country friend
of theirs, and get the money for them.
245. During the last six years you have got into the way of knitting
with your own wool?-Yes.
246. Where do you buy your wool, or how do you get it?-There is
a lady in the town-a dressmaker and milliner-who deals very
largely in hosiery.
247. What is her name?-Miss Robertson. She takes goods from
me on lines which I get for my shawls and she gives me wool and
cash to favour me, because she knows I have no other way of
getting money.
248. What do you mean by taking goods on lines-When I sell a
shawl to any hosiery merchant in the town, I get any sort of goods
that are in the shop, except wool to knit with; but if I don't want
the goods at the time, then the gentleman will give me a line to the
amount I have to get.
249. Is that an I O U?-That used to be on them. I think there are
other two letters now; but they mean all the same thing.
250. Have you any of these lines?-I have one home. I shall bring
it. If I go back to the shop with the line, or send anybody back
with it, the merchant's servants will serve the party who brings it
with the amount.
251. They will give you full value for it?-Yes, to the full value of
the lines.
252. Then Miss Robertson takes these I O U's from you, and gives
you worsted for them?-Yes.
253. That worsted you knit into shawls, and these shawls you sell
to the merchants, getting from them I O U's?-Yes.
254. Are you any better off under this system than you were
before?-Yes. She brings home the wools, and shows me the
invoice for them, and I get the wools at what she pays for them.
That is much cheaper than I can purchase them for in Lerwick.
255. But you did not buy the wool under the old way of working:
you got the wool supplied to you, and were paid for your work?-
Yes.
256. Do you think you make more money under the present
system?-Yes.
257. When you get these I O U's, you spend only part of them in
purchasing worsted?-I get no worsted on them except what I get
from Miss Robertson.
258. But you spend only part of them in paying Miss Robertson for
worsted?-Yes; and I get part money from her for them, because
they serve her just the same as money would do, in getting articles
from the merchants. She favours me in that way, and enables me
to support my stepmother and myself, and pay rent and taxation.
259. Do you hand all your I O U's to Miss Robertson?-No; only
what I can spare.
260. You sometimes take one of them yourself to the merchant
from whom you got it, and you get goods from him for it?-Yes.
261. You have more money passing through your hands now than
you had formerly?-Yes. I am able now to pay my rent.
262. How did you pay your rent formerly?-I did not require it
then so much. My father was alive then.
263. But you have now to pay rent?-Yes; and to support my
stepmother partly.
264. Have you within the last six years asked for money instead of
these lines?-Yes; I have asked almost daily for money, and I get a
little.
265. When did you ask last for money?-On Saturday.
266. Who did you ask?-Mr. Sinclair.
267. What did he say?-He gave me what I asked.
268. How much was that?-I just asked 1s.
269. Did you present one of his lines?-No; I sold him a shawl,
and bought goods, and got a line for the rest, and 1s. of cash.
270. How much was it altogether?-I got 10s. 6d. for the shawl.
271. And you got 1s. in cash, and 9s. 6d. in goods or in line?-
Yes.
272. Did you ask for more money than that?-Not on Saturday.
273. You got all the money you wanted then?-Yes.
274. How much did you the time before?-I got 2s. 6d. then.
275. From whom?-From Mr. Sinclair.
276. How much were you selling at that time?-15s. worth, I
think.
277. Was that a fortnight's work?-It was more than that; it would
be about three weeks'.
[Page 6]
278. How much money did you ask that time?-I asked for 5s.
279. What was said?-There was no more money at hand at the
counter at that time, and I got 2s. 6d.
280. What did you get for the 12s. 6d.?-It was some other little
things I was purchasing. I don't remember what they were.
281. You did not get a line at that time?-No.
282. The things you got you really wanted?-Yes.
283. Suppose you had got 15s. in cash, would you have purchased
your goods there?-Yes. Whatever wearing goods I required, I
would not have purchased them anywhere else. I am quite
satisfied with Mr. Sinclair's goods; but I am always needing
money so much that I have always to ask it.
284. Does this system of not getting money, or being paid in
goods, make you buy more dress or clothing than you would
otherwise care for?-Yes; I would not need one half the clothes I
get, if I could get money.
285. That is to say, you would prefer to take the money, and spend
it upon food?-Yes.
286. Or lay it by?-I should not think much of laying it by, if I
could only get enough to serve the present time.
287. Have you handed the I O U's to anybody else than Miss
Robertson?-Yes; to lots of people.
288. For money?-Yes; for money, and for peats or fuel for the
winter. My acquaintances will sometimes take a line from me to
oblige me, because I have no money to give them.
289. Name one of them?-John Ridling, Burn's Lane, is one of
them.
290. What would he do with it?-Mrs. Ridling would send it to the
shop and purchase anything she wanted.
291. Have you known these lines passing through more hands than
one before coming to the shop?-Yes; they would do that.
292. For instance, if Mrs. Ridling wanted money instead of goods
at the shop, might she pass the line to somebody who would give
her money for it?-No, not that I know of.
293. You said you had known the lines passing from hand to hand
before going back to the shop?-Yes; sometimes they do that.
294. That is to say, if you handed a line to a person for money, that
person might sell it again for money to another neighbour?-I do
not know of selling the lines for money; but they might pass from
one person to another in a quiet way.
295. For goods?-Yes; but not for money, so far as I know.
296. For fish?-Yes; I have got that on lines.
297. And bread?-Yes.
298. And then the party from whom the fish or bread was got
would hand the line to the merchant?-Yes; and get what things
suited them.
299. Is that it common thing in Lerwick?-No, it is not common;
but it is the case with me.
300. Have you known any one else who has passed her lines in that
way?-Yes; I have heard of some people who have taken lines
from others. I know that Miss Hutchison has taken lines from
people, and given them money for them. [The witness produced a
line, in the following terms:
'C. W. 20.-Cr. Bearer value in goods for thirteen
shillings stg. 13s.
To hat, 3s. R. SINCLAIR & Co.
<pr>. W.T.M.
Lerwick, 5. 12. 71.']
I think the letters 'C.W.' are a private mark. It used to be I O U.
The entry, 'To hat, 3s.' is an article I have got since, and there is
therefore a balance of 10s. left on the line.
301. Have you any particular reason for preferring these lines to
the old way of getting goods?-Yes; sometimes I can get the lines
turned into cash.
302. You can turn them into money more readily?-Yes; through
Miss Robertson taking them from me.
303. Are there many such lines given to people at shops?-Yes.
304. Do most of the people prefer the lines to being paid in
goods?-Sometimes they don't perhaps require the articles at the
time; but when they require them, they go with the lines and get
them.
Lerwick, January 1, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA SIMPSON, examined.
305. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.
306. For whom do you knit?-For myself.
307. Have you always done so?-I have always done so for a good
many years back.
308. Where do you purchase your wool?-I purchase it just from
any person, and I spin it for myself.
309. Do you purchase it from farmers?-Yes.
310. To whom do you sell your work?-To any the merchants who
will take it. I generally sold it to Mr. Spence when he was in the
town, and to his sister Miss Spence since he went away.
311. Does she still deal in hosiery?-Yes.
312. How are you paid?-Generally just by goods.
313. Do you ask for money?-For the last shawl I sold I asked 2s.
in money. She did not appear very willing to give it; but I got 2s.
on it, and the rest in goods.
314. What was the value of the shawl?-It was 12s.
315. Did you not ask for more than 2s. upon it?-No. I did not ask
for any more, because she did not wish to give any more.
316. You did not ask for the whole price of the shawl in money?-
No.
317. Did you want it all in money?-I would have liked it all in
money.
318. Why? What would you have done with the money if you had
had it?-There is many a thing that can be done with money.
319. But had you any particular reason for wanting the money
instead of the goods? Did you not want the goods?-I could have
been doing at that time without the articles that I got; but I just had
to take them, because I could get no more than 2s. in money on the
shawl.
320. Is that the usual practice in your dealings with the
merchants?-Not always. Sometimes I have seen me getting a few
shillings more from her; and at other times, if she did not have a
particular order for the articles, she seemed not to be willing to
give any, money at all.
321. How do you square your accounts when you get goods in that
way? For instance, when you sold that 12s. shawl and got the 2s.
in money, did you also get so many yards of cloth?-Yes; of print.
322. At how much?-At 7d. per yard. I also got some wincey.
323. Did that balance the account exactly?-Yes.
324. You got what made exactly the 10s. worth?-Yes.
325. Do you generally take just so much cloth as makes up the
value of the shawl?-Yes; generally.
326. Do you do anything else in the way of working for your living
than by knitting these articles?-Yes. I am married.
327. Then knitting is an extra sort of thing with you?-Yes.
328. Have you tried any of the other shops in the town to see if
they would give you money for your hosiery?-No, none for a
good while back; but it is not very much that I can do at it, on
account of the house-work. My husband is a shoemaker.
329. Have you ever got lines for your shawls?-No: I generally
settle up for the whole in goods at the time when I sell the shawls.
330. Is that all you want to say?-Yes.
[Page 7]
Lerwick, January 1, 1872, Mrs. JEMIMA BROWN or TAIT,
examined.
331. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.
332. Do you live with your parents?-Yes.
333. What is your father?-A shoemaker.
334. And you knit for your own benefit?-Yes.
335. For whom do you knit-For Mr. Robert Linklater.
336. What kind of goods do you knit?-Generally veils.
337. How much do you make in a week?-Sometimes 3s., and
sometimes not so much, just according as the merchant buys the
articles we make.
338. Is it his worsted you work?-Yes.
339. And he pays you so much for the work you put upon it?-
Yes.
340. What is the value of the work you put upon the veil?-The
last veils I made I got 9d. apiece for them.
341. Does what you get for them depend upon the size of the
veils?-A good deal. These were the largest veils of all.
342. Then you will sometimes make four or five of them in a
week?-I just made three of these. They were large ones.
343. How often do you get settled with for your work?-We have
a pass-book, and the merchant lets it go on until he thinks we have
got goods up to the value we have knitted for. He then makes up
the book. [Produces pass-book in name of Harriet Brown, and
another in name of Amelia Brown.] These are my sisters. One
book served for the whole of us.
344. Did any one tell you to come here and bring those books?-
No; I just heard what was to be done, and I came of my own
accord.
345. These books contain the goods which you have purchased
from Mr. Linklater?-Yes.
346. The last one begins on April 16; 1870, and is added up in
January 1871. The amount at your credit is £5, 5s. 2d.: what does
that mean?-It means, that we have knitted articles to that amount,
and we have also got goods of that value. That was a square
balance. The articles we have knitted bringing out that sum, are
entered in a separate account at the end of the same book.
347. Is that account the same as appears in Mr. Linklater's
books?-Yes.
348. It is-April 16, By balance at account, 10s. 111/2d.; May 5,
twenty veils at 1s., £1: are these entered at the time you hand them
back?-Yes; I took twenty veils to Mr. Linklater at that time.
349. The next entry is-September 6, twenty veils at 1s., £1. I
thought you said you got 9d. for the largest veils you made?-Yes,
for the largest size; but the veils I took in then were finer work, and
the price for them was 1s. each.
350. Then-December 29, twenty veils at 1s, £1; March 30, two
shawls at 3s. 6d, 7s.; August 19, nine veils at 1s., 9s.; same date,
one shawl, 3s. 6d.-in all, £5, 10s. 51/2d. There is deducted £5, 5s.
2d., leaving a balance in your favour of. 5s. 31/2d.; and then the
account begins again, and is continued down till December 26?-
Yes.
351. Do you live with your father?-Yes.
352. Therefore you don't want much money for your own
purposes?-We can never get any money. We would be very glad
to get it if we could.
353. Have you asked money for your shawls instead of goods?-
Yes.
354. What answer was made to your request?-That he never gave
any money, and that he could not give it.
355. Was it not because you had this account, standing against you
that he refused to give you any money?-No. The merchants don't
give money to anybody, unless it be just to favourites.
356. At August 19 there was 5s. 31/2d. at your credit: did you not
ask for that in money?-No; I did not ask for money then, but I
had asked for it before.
357. I see that on August 19, when you were settling up, and when
there was 5s. 31/2d. due to you, you took a hat and feathers, some
velvet, and a jacket. You got a great deal more then than was due
to you-Yes; because we had a number of veils knitting for the
merchant at the time, and they all go into the account for the goods
we get.
358. You say you did not ask for money at that time: did you not
want it?-We always want it; but we never got it when we did ask
for it; and it is no use always asking for it.
359. When did you ask for it last?-Some time in 1871.
360. I see there are no goods entered in your book as having been
received by you from Mr. Linklater between January 1871 and
October 1871: had you stopped working for him during that
time?-I was in the south then.
361. But your sister was here?-Yes; but she was not knitting any.
She was very sickly.
362. Is there anything else you want to say?-No.
363. Your sister Amelia is here to make the same statement that
you have now made?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 1, 1872, BARBARA JOHNSTON, examined.
364. You have come from the parish of Sandwick?-Yes.
365. How far is that from Lerwick?-About thirteen miles.
366. Who do you live with there?-I live with my mother, Mrs.
Johnston. My father is dead.
367. How many of a family are there of you?-I have two brothers
and a sister in the south and there is a sister at home besides
myself.
368. You do some work in knitting?-Yes.
369. For whom do you work?-For Mr. Robert Linklater.
370. Do you always work for him?-Yes. I work for nobody else.
371. Have you a pass-book?-No.
372. How long have you worked for Mr. Linklater?-For some
years. I cannot say the number exactly.
373. Do you get wool from him, or do you supply it yourself?-I
get the worsted from him, and I am paid by him for my work.
374. What kind of wages do you get?-I get 10s. for making a big
shawl.
375. That is not the finest quality of knitting?-No; it is about the
coarsest.
376. Is it always shawls that you work at?-No; sometimes I make
veils.
377. When you take your work back to Mr. Linklater, are you paid
for it in money or in goods?-In goods.
378. Do you sometimes ask for money?-Yes.
379. What has he said to you when you asked for money?-He
says he never gives it, and that he won't give it to me. I got 2s.
from him today; but that is all I ever got, except, I think, one
sixpence before. I also got the offer of a pass-book to-day. I had
never been offered one before.
380. Was it after you had seen me this forenoon that you got the
2s. and the offer of the pass-book?-Yes.
381. When you get your worsted, is there a bargain made between
the merchant and you about the payment you are to receive for the
work?-No. I have just an idea what I think the thing will come
to; and then, when I come back with it, he gives me what he likes.
382. You don't make any bargain beforehand?-No.
383. But you might do so if liked?-He won't do it. I have asked
him, but he said he would see the thing when I came back with it.
384. I suppose, he wants to see the quality of the work before he
pays for it?-Yes.
[Page 8]
385. Did you take the pass-book that was offered you
today?-No.
386. Why?-I had no particular I reason for not taking it.
387. Did you not want it?-I thought I would not mind it to-day, as
I had never had one before.
388. Do you remember the last time before to-day when you went
to Mr. Linklater with some of your work?-Yes.
389. How much was due to you at that time?-I think he was due
me about £1.
390. That would be for more than one shawl?-Yes; it was for
some veils about four months ago. I have made two shawls for
him since, and some veils.
391. But the last time you went with your work, how much was
due you?-I think there would be about £1.
392. Did you ask for money then?-Yes.
393. Who did you ask it from?-Mr. Linklater.
394. Was it from Mr. Linklater himself, or one of his people?-It
was either from Mr. Linklater or from Mr. Anderson; I don't
remember which.
395. What was said to you?-He just said that he would not give
it, as he never gave any.
396. What goods did you get?-Some stuff for a dress, and some
tea and cotton.
397. Had you made up your mind before you went there as to what
you wanted to buy?-Yes.
398. And you got what you wanted?-I had to take what he had. I
had no other chance.
399. Did you want these goods at that time?-If I had got the
money, I would not have bought them at that time.
400. What would you have done with the money?-I would have
bought grocery things-things that he did not have.
401. How do you get provisions when you want them?-My
mother has a farm, and I work with her.
402. You sometimes work out-of-doors?-Yes.
403. How do you pay your rent for the farm?-My mother
sometimes sells an animal, and pays the rent with the price.
404. To whom does she sell these animals?-To any one she can
get to buy them. I don't know any one particularly to whom she
sells them.
405. Whose ground are you on?-Mr. Bruce of Sand Lodge.
406. Is there any one in your family who goes to the fishing?-No;
my brothers are all in the south.
407. Do you sometimes exchange for provisions the goods you get
from Mr. Linklater for your hosiery?-No; I always get provisions
home with me without changing them.
408. How is that? Have you some money?-Yes. It is by the farm
that we have it.
409. Have you ever had occasion to exchange your goods for
provisions?-No.
410. Do you know whether that is a common practice in your
district?-I don't know.
411. Have you ever received a line instead of goods?-No.
412. Have you ever asked for a line?-No.
413. You say that to-day you took a shawl to Mr. Linklater, which
he had ordered, and that you got from him along with goods?-
Yes.
414. What was the value put upon the shawl?-10s.; but I had had
a shawl in with him before and some veils since I was in the town
last.
415. Had these been paid for?-No.
416. Then what was the whole sum due to you day?-I think it
was £1, 2s. 6d.
417. Why did you not get your money or goods the last time you
went in?-I sent the articles in then; I did not come myself.
418. So that there was no opportunity of settling with you before
today?-No.
419. How much money did you ask for to-day?-I asked for 2s.,
and I got it.
420. Did you not want more?-I did not ask more and I don't think
I would have got more if I had asked it. That was the reason why I
did not ask it; because Mr. Linklater does not make it his practice
give money.
421. Then when you go in any day to the merchant, you just say,
'Here is your shawl,' and you ask how much you are to get for
it?-Yes.
422. What is his answer?-He just mentions whatever he likes to
give.
423. But he gives you a fair value for the work, does he?-Yes;
sometimes.
424. Do you think he puts too low a value on your work?-Yes; I
often think that.
425. Do you think there is anything very unreasonable in the value
he puts upon it?-Yes; sometimes I do.
426. How long does it take you to make a 10s. shawl-I would
make one of them in a month if I was not doing much else.
427. Would it take you so long as a month?-Yes.
428. When you take in the shawl, you say the merchant puts his
value upon it: do you ask him for a little more than he says, or are
you satisfied with the value he puts on it?-If it is reasonable-like,
I say nothing about it.
429. He does not hand you the money?-No.
430. What takes place then?-He asks me what I want in goods. If
I ask for money, he says no.
431. Does he give any reason for refusing you money?-He says
he never gives it, and he won't give it to me.
432. Is that the only reason that has ever been assigned to you for
not giving you money?-Yes. There was one of them in the shop
that said that to-day, and Mr. Linklater himself came in and gave
me 2s.
433. Then you were refused money to-day by the shopman?-Yes.
434. He wanted you to take the whole amount in goods?-Yes.
435. He did so, because that was the practice?-Yes; and Mr.
Linklater himself gave the 2s., and he also offered me a pass-book.
436. Who was the shopman who did that?-I think Robert
Anderson is his name.
437. Did you say anything to Mr. Linklater when he came in?-I
just asked him for the money.
438. You applied to him for the money when the shopman had
refused it?-Yes.
439. And Mr. Linklater gave it to you without any hesitation?-
Yes.
440. The 2s. was all that you asked?-Yes. I thought I would not
get any money, because I had been denied it before.
441. Did you take the pass-book that was offered to you?-No; I
did not think of taking it to-day.
442. Were you thinking of not dealing with Mr. Linklater any
more?-No; I have got another shawl from him to make.
443. Did you get the worsted for it to-day?-Yes.
444. Does Mr. Linklater take a note of the quantity of worsted he
gives out to you?-Yes; he weighs it.
445. He knows how much it will take to make a shawl, and he
weighs the shawl when it is brought back?-Yes.
446. Have you ever bought worsted for your own knitting?-No; I
could not get it bought, because I was not in the way of earning
money.
447. Have you tried to buy it?-I could not try without the money.
He would not give worsted for nothing.
448. And you had no money to pay for it?-No; I could not have
it.
449. But when you were taking back your work to him, have you
never asked to take part of the value of it in worsted?-I have; and
I have been refused.
450. When did you do that?-It is long ago now; but I have done
it.
451. What did he say when he refused you the worsted?-That it
was a money article and he could not give it without the money.
452. Was it Mr. Linklater or Mr. Anderson who, said so?-I
cannot remember now, it is so long ago.
453. Has that happened with you more than once?[Page 9]-I only
remember asking it once. I never did it again, when I got a denial
the first time.
454. Your sister also knits, and many of your acquaintances?-
Yes. I would like to speak on my sister's behalf as well as my
own. She is not here, but she wants to say the same thing that I
have done.
455. She wants to make the same complaint?-Yes. She is not
well, and is unable to come in.
Lerwick, January 1, 1872, ANDREW TULLOCH, examined.
456. You are a fisherman at Cunningsburgh?-Yes.
457. Have you got a piece of ground there?-Yes.
458. You are a tenant of whom?-Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh.
459. Who do you fish for?-Thomas Tulloch at present.
460. Is he a relation of yours?-No.
461. Where is his place?-At Lebidden, close by Sand Lodge.
There are some houses there.
462. Do you live there?-No; I live at Cunningsburgh.
463. Is Mr. Thomas Tulloch a tacks-master under Mr. Bruce.
464. What is he?-He is just a merchant carrying on business
there, and he has stepped into the fishing. He sold goods before he
began to it.
465. Does he keep a shop at Lebidden?-Yes, for the fishermen;
and to sell to other people as well.
466. You engage to fish to him: is that for the summer fishing?-
Yes, chiefly; or for the whole season, if we can follow it up.
467. Do you go to the Faroe fishing for him?-No; only to the ling
fishing, in the six-oared boats.
468. What have you come here to say?-Chiefly, that we should
like to have our freedom. We have freedom at present; but we are
afraid of young Mr. Bruce taking the tack of the tenants into his
own hands. He got a lease of the tenants from his father last
season.
469. What did he get a lease of?-Of his father's premises at
Cunningsburgh.
470. Then he got a lease of the whole lands of Cunningsburgh?-
Yes, from his father. That was his statement the last time we
settled with him.
471. What did he say then?-He said he was prepared to settle
with the tenants, because he had got a lease from his father of the
lands.
472. But you say you have your freedom?-Yes, at present; but
we are doubtful if we can keep it, because young Mr. Bruce has
taken the tenants at the place where he is living himself-at
Dunrossness. He took the tenants there some three or four years
ago, and he has built a house; and both we and the merchant are
doubtful that he may take us into his own hand too. We rather
think we might be worse off if we were taken back.
473. What do you mean by being taken back?-I mean, if the
tenants were taken into his own hands again.
474. Have you any objection to the arrangement you have just now
with Mr. Thomas Tulloch?-We cannot complain of it, further
than that we don't know the price we are to get until we settle. We
never had any chance of knowing that from any merchant we ever
dealt with.
475. When do you arrange to go out to fish?-About the beginning
of May. In some years it may be a month or a fortnight earlier,
just as the weather is.
476. At that time do you make a bargain with Mr. Tulloch about
the fishing, to fish for him, during the whole season?-Yes. We
have so much confidence in him that we do not make any written
agreement; it is all done by word of mouth.
477. To whom do the boats belong that you go out in?-The boat I
go in is our own. It belongs to the crew.
478. How many of you are there?-Five men and a boy.
479. How long have you had your boat?-We have had our present
boat for about seven or eight years. She was a second-hand boat,
about five years old, when we got her.
480. You bought her yourselves?-Yes.
481. Is the price all paid up now?-Yes; it was paid a few years
ago.
482. Then Mr. Tulloch makes his arrangement with you to go to
fish about the 1st of May?-Yes.
483. What is the bargain? Is it that you are to fish for him during
the whole season?-No; only till Lammas that is, the end of July;
and after that we stick to the herring fishing.
484. But when you are at the ling fishing you give him all your
fish?-Yes; the whole. Every time we come ashore we deliver
them to his factor.
485. That is for the purpose of being cured?-Yes.
486. He takes an account of them as he receives them?-Yes.
487. And the only complaint you have against Mr. Tulloch is, that
you don't get settled until when?-We get settled generally at
settlement time but we don't know our price until we come to
settle.
488. When is the settlement made?-We are not quite settled yet
for last year; but when we are called on by our landlord to pay our
rent, Mr. Tulloch has no objection to give us money for that.
489. Who do you pay your rent to?-To Mr. Bruce; he is the
proprietor.
490. Then your complaint is, that you don't know the price of your
fish until January?-Yes.
491. Would you rather contract with Mr. Tulloch to supply all your
fish at so much per cwt.?-Yes.
492. But you cannot get that bargain made?-Some of the men
seem very reluctant to agree to it. A few of them have said that
they would leave and go to another merchant before they would
have that.
493. Does Mr. Tulloch keep a store?-Yes; he has a store, and he
supplies all the fishermen.
494. What does he supply them with?-Just with material. He
also keeps meal; and they take it from him, more or less, as their
families require it. He keeps other things besides, such as lines,
hooks, and tar for the boats.
495. Are these things which you get from the store marked down
in pass-books of your own, or in the books of the store?-We can
have a book for ourselves if we like. I did not bring mine with me.
496. Does the storekeeper mark the things in your pass-book as
you get them?-Yes.
497. Are the quantities of fish also marked into that pass-book as
they are delivered?-No; they are entered into another book which
the factor keeps, and we keep the accounts in a book for ourselves.
498. You mark them down for yourselves in another book?-Yes.
499. Is that the general practice among the fishermen in your
locality?-It is; and then we compare the quantities with the factor
before we go up to settle.
500. Then each fisherman has two books-a passbook for his
dealings with the store, and a book of his own in which he marks
down the quantities of fish delivered?-Yes.
501. When you came to settle, do you generally get a large balance
paid to you in cash?-Every year is not alike. If it has been a bad
fishing season, and if the crops are light, then perhaps the accounts
will not square. But there have been two or three good seasons
lately.
502. When the accounts do not square, you mean that, you may be
in debt to the fish-merchant?-Yes; £2 or so.
503. And he allows that to over, and to be paid next year?-Yes.
504. But you have no serious complaint to make about that
system?-No; we cannot complain about the regulations in
Shetland.
505. Could you make a better bargain with anybody else?-I don't
think we could-in Shetland.
[Page 10]
506. Is that your fault, or the fault of the
fish-merchant?-I think, for my own part, I would stick into any
place where I could get the best bargain. We have been fishing for
some years to some of the merchants who would give 3d. or 6d.
per cwt. more for the fish than we could get in Lerwick, and
therefore we have stuck by them.
507. Suppose another merchant were at hand at Cunningsburgh,
would you be quite at liberty to sell your fish to him?-Yes.
508. Is there any such merchant there within reach of you?-There
is another merchant close by, named James Smith. Part of the men
on the beach I belong to fish for him, and part to Thomas Tulloch.
509. Are there any other stores than Mr. Tulloch's at
Cunningsburgh or in the neighbourhood?-There are some small
shops that we could get small groceries from, but I do not do much
with them.
510. Suppose you were to agree at the beginning of the season to
sell your fish to another than Mr. Tulloch, would you have any
difficulty in getting credit at his store for your supplies?-He
would not like that very well.
511. Would you not get your supplies there?-No, not unless the
man who asked them was one he was well acquainted with.
512. Would you be able to get them anywhere else?-I don't
know. I don't think I would try to get them, unless at the place I
was sending my fish to.
513. But if you had not the money yourself, would you get
credit for your supplies during the summer from any other
shopkeeper, either in Lerwick or Cunningsburgh?-Yes. All
the fish-merchants we deal with in Lerwick I can get a little credit
from up to the present day.
514. And in that way you are not bound over to Mr. Tulloch in any
way?-No. We can leave him this season if we have a mind.
515. You were to say something about the herring fishing: I
thought there was not much herring fishing here?-There will be
nothing at all this season in Shetland. We generally fished to
Messrs. Hay & Co. when we were in it.
516. Have you any complaint to make about it?-Much the same
as about the ling fishing The don't like to give a stated price.
517. Where do you deliver the fish when you go to the herring
fishing?-There is a small ghioe* close by our own place at
Cunningsburgh. Hay & Co. send down a cooper there, and they
have a booth for their stores close by.
518. What is the bargain you make with them about that?-They
generally wish us to go to the fishing, and they will pay us
accordingly.
519. What do you do about a boat?-We use the same boat as we
have in the ling fishing.
520. Then your only complaint about the herring fishery is, that
you don't know the price until settling time?-Yes. But there has
been no herring fishery on the island at all this season, to speak of.
521. Do you require advances of money at all during the season?-
We are often in want of a few shillings.
522. How do you get that?-The man we are dealing with just now
(Mr. Tulloch) has never said no, so far as what we asked was
reasonable. I got an advance of £2 from him last season to buy a
cow. We were out of milk that season, and he did not refuse me
the money when I asked it.
523. Do you get advances from Messrs. Hay also when you need
it?-1 don't think they are so very frank about that, and I don't
like to ask it; but they will give us any small thing we need from
their shops.
* <Gio>-A deep ravine which admits the sea.-<Edmonstone's
Glossary>.
524. Do they supply you with goods also?-Yes.
525. Where is their store from which you get the goods?-There is
their shop in town.
526. Do you come to Lerwick for them?-Yes.
527. Do you run an account there?-Sometimes we do, and
sometimes not; but we have not much to do with Messrs. Hay on
that footing.
528. You said that your reason for coming here and offering to
give evidence to-day was, that you were afraid of young Mr. Bruce
taking the fishing into his own hands?-Yes; that is the thing we
find to be most oppressive, if it was coming to be the case.
529. Is it the general opinion in the country that he has undertaken
to manage the fishings on his father's estates?-He addressed
himself so in the note he gave us. He called himself general
merchant and fish-curer.
530. Did he give you intimation of that one year at rent time?-
Yes; that was last year.
531. But he has not yet taken the management of the fishing at
Cunningsburgh?-No.
532. Has he fishing establishments elsewhere?-He has-at
Dunrossness. He has taken all the tenants there into his own
hands. The property, I daresay, is twice as large as
Cunningsburgh.
533. Do you know from your own knowledge whether the tenants
there are obliged to fish for him?-Yes; they are fishing to
himself.
534. Have they no choice but to fish for him?-I don't think it. As
far as my knowledge goes, they have not.
535. Are you acquainted with any of the fishermen there?-I know
a little about them, from passing them on the road.
536. Have they ever complained to you about the state of matters
at Dunrossness?-I cannot say much about that, except that they
think they would have been fully better with their freedom.
537. Have they not got their freedom?-They cannot have their
freedom when they are fishing to him.
538. But they may fish to him of their own free will?-They
might; but I think he has gripped them so that they cannot have
their freedom.
539. That, however, is only your own supposition?-I think it is
true. It is so true that both the merchant and us are afraid that he
will grip us too.
Lerwick, January 1, 1872, SIMON LAURENSON, examined.
540. You are a fisherman at Cunningsburgh?-Yes.
541. Do you fish for Mr. Tulloch?-No; I fish for James Smith.
542. You have heard the evidence of the previous witness, Andrew
Tulloch?-Yes.
543. Is the statement you wish to make very much the same as
his?-Very much the same. We want to know, as British subjects,
whether, if we pay our rent annually, we are entitled to our
freedom.
544. You mean, whether you are to be allowed to fish to any
person you choose?-Yes; to fish to any person, or to work at any
kind of work for which we have a mind.
545. Have you been told by young Mr. Bruce, or any one else on
his behalf, that you are not to have your freedom?-No. We only
got a hint of it from the fish-merchant.
546. And your alarm has been excited by what you have heard
from the people at Dunrossness?-Yes.
547. Do you know what Mr. Bruce's system is with the tenants
under him there?-I cannot say exactly, except that they are not
well satisfied with it. At least I know that some of them are not
satisfied.
<Adjourned>.
[Page 11] Lerwick: Tuesday, January 2, 1872.
LAURENCE MAIL, examined.
548. You are a fisherman at Scatness, in Dunrossness?-I am.
549. Are you a tenant of land?-Yes.
550. Under whom?-Under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh.
551. How much rent do you pay?-For the present year I pay
between £10 and £11 of rent.
552. Have you more land this year than usual?-Yes; I have more
than I used to have.
553. Do you fish in the home fishing?-Yes.
554. Do you fish in the Faroe fishing?-No; I don't go to it.
555. How long have you been at Dunrossness?-Ever since I was a
child.
556. Have you always been in the same house?-Yes; except for
about two and a half years.
557. What is your age?-I am thirty-eight years old.
558. You have come here today to make some statement about the
system of fishing?-Yes.
559. What is the complaint you wish to make?-There is one thing
we complain of: that we are bound to deliver our fish, wet or
green, to the landlord.
560. That is, you have to deliver the fish as they are caught?-Yes;
of course we have to take out the bowels and cut off the heads: it is
the bodies of the fish we give. We think it would be much better if
we had liberty to dry the fish ourselves, as we used to do formerly.
561. To whom are you bound to give your fish?-To Mr. Bruce,
our landlord.
562. Is he a fish-curer or fish-merchant?-Yes.
563. Is it Mr. Bruce or his son that you are speaking of?-It is
young Mr. Bruce. He is the landlord or tack-master. His father is
alive; but I think young Mr. Bruce has got power from his father to
manage the tenants according to his own pleasure.
564. Do you pay your rent to young Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
565. And does he give you a receipt for it in his own name?-We
settle once a year with him for our fishing, and for the store goods
we have got, and rent and everything together.
566. Do you get an account for the whole?-He generally gives us
a copy of our account. Sometimes, perhaps, he does not do so; but
he will give it if we ask for it.
567. Have you got a copy of your account for any year with you?-
I have not got one here, but I will send one.
568. Is that all you have got to say on the subject of your
complaint?-No; I have something more. Of course, as we are
bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, a man, unless he has money of his
own, is shut up to deal at Mr. Bruce's shop. His credit is gone at
every other place, and that binds us to take our goods from his
store; and generally the goods there are sold at the highest value.
Meal, particularly, has for some years been 4s. a boll above what it
was in Lerwick; and very often, when we ask the price of goods at
the time we get them, they do not know the price which they are to
charge us, and we never learn what the price is until we come to
settle.
569. Is there any other store in the neighbourhood from which you
could purchase at a cheaper rate?-There are some other stores in
the parish that we could purchase from.
570. Where is the store situated that you are speaking of?-It is
situated not very far from us-perhaps about a mile or more from
Scatness.
571. Is that the most populous part of Dunrossness parish?-No;
Scatness is at the very land's end, near Sumburgh point.
572. Are there many fishermen there?-There are good many.
There is a population down that way of nearly 500, most of whom
are fishermen; and out of the whole lot of them there was not a
man who would come here and represent their case except myself.
Every man among them was frightened he would get his warning
if he came forward.
573. How do you know that?-They said so themselves.
574. Was there any meeting on the subject?-Yes; there was a
meeting held last Friday night.
575. What were the names of the men who said they were afraid to
come?-There was one Sinclair Cheyne: he said that perhaps they
might get their warning; and I think Robert Malcolmson also
signified something of the same kind. However, I know it was the
general feeling among the whole lot of them.
576. Was there any particular ground stated for that
apprehension?-I don't know. Of course every one suspected that
if the landlord heard that they were coming forward with any case
against him, he would warn them out. That was the general
suspicion.
577. Has the landlord or his factor ever told you that a man not
dealing at the store, or refusing to deliver his fish to him (the
landlord), would be turned out of his farm?-The landlord never
told me exactly that if I did not fish for him I would be turned out,
but I have seen an evidence of that in the case of a neighbour.
578. What was the name of that neighbour?-James Harper. His
son dried a few hundredweight of fish for himself and gave them
to Mr. Bruce, and on that account his father was warned.
579. Do you say that the father was warned although the son gave
the fish to Mr. Bruce?-Yes, he gave then to him dried; and
because he did not give them to him wet, his father was warned.
580. When was that?-I think it was seven or eight years ago; and,
if I am not mistaken, the father had to pay 30s. so that he might sit
still.
581. But he did sit still?-Yes; he is there yet.
582. Do you know anything about the case of a James Brown?-
Yes; it was reported, I believe, to Mr. Bruce that Brown had given
some fish to some other merchant, and directly his house was put
up for let.
583. In what way was it put up for let? Was it advertised?-Yes;
it was advertised at the store, as it was a public place.
584. Did you see the notice?-No; I did not see it, but I was
informed that some notice was put up. The thing was found out to
be false, and Brown got leave to stay where he was.
585. How long ago was that?-I could not exactly say, but I think
it was somewhere about eight or ten years ago.
586. Have you known of any person being warned off the ground
for not dealing at the store?-No; there is no compulsion about
that. We have liberty to deal at any place we like; but when our
credit is cut off the way I have mentioned, there is no use in having
that liberty.
587. You say your credit is cut off because you are compelled to
fish for the landlord?-Yes.
588. Therefore that is virtually compulsion to deal at the store: is
that what you mean to say?-Yes; of course it comes to that.
Suppose we have liberty to deal at any place we like, still if a man
does not have money his credit is cut off with any other merchant,
so that he must deal at the landlord's store.
589. When you deliver your fish, do you get any money that you
want?-Yes. Mr. Bruce always gave me money when I wanted it,
if he had money of mine in his hands; indeed he always gave me
what money I asked, whether I had any to get or not. I always
found him very generous in that way.
590. Therefore, whenever you wanted money for your fish you got
it, even although it was a long time before settling day?-Yes; Mr.
Bruce will give money at any time throughout the whole season,
especially to men that he knows have it to get.
[Page 12]
591. You have no complaint to make about that?-No.
592. The fishing, I understand, begins in April?-Yes.
593. And when does it end?-About September.
594. Suppose you wanted to draw all the money, or about all the
money, that was due to you in August or September, is it likely
that you would get it?-If I did not have very much to get, perhaps
I might get it all, or perhaps more; but if I did have much to get, I
don't think he would be inclined to give it all.
595. If you wanted anything, and could not get the money, would
you be obliged to take the goods out of his store?-Of course if I
could not get money from him, and was requiring the goods, I had
no other chance than taking them from the store.
596. If you wanted a supply of provisions or clothing, you would
have to get them there?-Yes.
597. Do you get both provisions and clothes at the store?-There
is not much clothing there.
598. Where do you get the rest of your clothing?-At any place
where we can get it cheapest when we can have a few shillings in
hand.
599. Where are the other stores in that district?-There is a man,
Mr. Gavin Henderson, who has a store about four or five miles
from us; and I believe he generally sells things at as cheap a rate as
they can be got in the country.
600. Have you dealt at his store?-Yes; occasionally.
601. Do you find the goods that you get from Henderson to be
cheaper than those in Mr. Bruce's store?-Yes; they are cheaper
than we can get them at any other place.
602. Give me an instance of that: have you bought meal at both
places?-No, I have not bought meal from there.
603. What have you bought at Henderson's store?-I have
sometimes bought leather for making boots and shoes.
604. Do you not buy your shoes ready-made?-No.
605. You buy your leather, and get somebody to make them?-
Yes.
606. What is the difference in the price of the leather at the two
places?-We generally think that we can get it a few shillings
cheaper at Henderson's store than we can get it elsewhere.
607. Do you mean that the leather for a pair of boots is a few
shillings cheaper at Henderson's store than at Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.
608. Is there any other article you can specify on which there is a
difference of price?-I don't know shout anything else in
particular.
609. Where do you get your bread?-We buy all our meal, and
bake it for ourselves.
610. You spoke about the meal being 4s. a boll cheaper at Lerwick
than at Mr. Bruce's: do you know that because you have bought it
there yourself?-No; but I have asked what the price of the meal
was in Lerwick-sometimes when I was there, and sometimes
from people that I could rely upon. Of course we did not know
what the price of Mr. Bruce's meal was until we came to settle.
611. But you found out at settling time that Mr. Bruce had charged
you 4s. more per boll than meal was selling for at the same time in
Lerwick?-Yes.
612. Are you quite sure of that?-Yes.
613. Is the quality of meal from the store good?-Generally it is;
614. You have no fault to find with the quality?-I have no
complaint against it or against the quality of any of the goods sold
there; they are generally good.
615. What is the price of a boll of meal at Mr. Bruce's store just
now?-I cannot say. There is not much meal bought at the store
about this time. Most of us have small farms of our own from
which we get meal.
616. Then it is generally in summer that you buy meal from Mr.
Bruce's store?-Yes.
617. What was the price of meal during last summer?-I cannot
say, because I had none from them last summer, except the fourth
of a boll.
618. What was the price of that?-I won't know the price of it
until settling time. I don't think any man dealing there knows the
price of his meal until that time.
619. Is the only compulsion upon you to fish for Mr. Bruce, that
you are afraid of being turned out of your holdings?-Of course.
620. If you did not fish for him, or if you sold your fish to another,
would you have to pay liberty money?-I don't think there is
anything of that kind done with us.
621. You have no written leases?-No. We got the offer of a lease
last year. But it would have made us worse than we are, because
Mr. Bruce would give a lease for fifty years; but he had it in his
power every ten years to raise the rent, so that it would have been
double at the end of the fifty years.
622. But you had it in your power to refuse that?-Of course; and
we did refuse it.
623. But you had it in your power to refuse at the end of the ten
years, as well as at first, to pay the increased rent?-No. That was
the condition he offered to give us the lease upon. Besides, he was
to have it in his power to cause any man who took a lease to make
such improvements as he thought proper; and if he did not make
the improvements then Mr. Bruce was to make them himself, and
charge the men a certain interest.
624. Was the lease which he offered you in writing?-No, it was
in print. I will send a copy of it.
625. You say there is no liberty money paid in your district
now?-No. My father paid 50s. of liberty money at one time; but
the rents have been raised, so that the liberty money is included in
the rent now.
626. How long ago was that?-I think it is about ten years since
the rent was raised.
627. Have you any other reason than you have stated for supposing
that you will be turned out of your ground if you fished for another
than Mr. Bruce?-It is a general belief that we would be turned
out.
628. But I want to know the ground of that belief. How long is it
since Mr. Bruce took up the business?-Eleven years.
629. Was there at that time any intimation made to you or to the
other tenants that you were expected to hand your fish over to
him?-There was a letter from old Mr. Bruce sent round to all his
tenants. One letter served for them all. If I am not mistaken, the
officer went round among them with it.
630. Did he show you the letter?-He read the letter; and in it Mr.
Bruce stated that he gave his tenants over into the hands of his son.
His son became his tack-master.
631. That letter was not delivered to you?-No; I don't think it
was.
632. Was there not a copy of it sent to each tenant?-I don't think
there was. It is eleven years ago; and I don't remember any of the
particulars that were in it.
633. Do you mean to say that that letter was the beginning of the
understanding which now exists about fishing?-Certainly it was.
634. What did it say about that matter?-I really cannot say now
what was in the letter.
635. Did it intimate that he had handed over the Dunrossness
tenants to his son?-Yes; I think that was the purport of the thing.
636. Did it say anything about the fishing?-It was understood that
he handed over the fishing. At that time there were different
merchants in Lerwick who were receiving fish from the tenants,
and they had all to remove their goods from that district.
637. Had they stores?-Yes, they had stores and goods for
supplying the fishermen; and they had all to remove except
Messrs. Hay & Co.
638. Were these merchants warned out?-I cannot say.
639. I suppose they paid rent to Mr. Bruce for these stores?-Yes;
at least for liberty to have the stores there.
[Page 13]
640. Who were these merchants?-Hay & Co. were put
out of the store that Mr. Bruce now occupies.
641. But they have a store at Dunrossness yet?-Yes, they have a
store there.
642. How far is it from you?-I think about a quarter of an hour's
walk.
643. Is it nearer your place than Gavin Henderson's store?-Yes.
644. Is Hay & Company's store on Mr. Bruce's property?-Yes;
but they have a lease of it, otherwise I believe they would not have
been there.
645. Can you not sell your fish to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-No.
646. From whom do they buy fish in that quarter?-The tenants of
Mr. Bruce of Simbister, through the parish, have liberty to sell
their fish where they please, and some of them are sold to Hay &
Co.
647. Have you ever been prevented from selling your fish to
Messrs. Hay?-I never tried to sell my fish to any other person
than Mr. Bruce since he took the fishing.
648. Do you know if any man has tried to do that?-Yes; there are
various men who have sold a few to other merchants. On one
occasion young Mr. Bruce asked me whether I had sold any fish to
any other person than him.
649. When was that?-It would be about half a dozen years ago. I
told him I had sold a little, and I did not think I was doing any sin
before God or man for doing it.
650. You were not turned out for that?-No.
651. Have you any grievance in Dunrossness with regard to
whales?-Yes, we often drive whales on shore there; and after
they are killed and pulled ashore, and the oil all taken out, the
landlord takes one-third.
652. But you are allowed to sell the other two-thirds?-Yes.
653. To whom do you sell the two-thirds of the oil?-Generally to
merchants in Lerwick.
654. How are you paid for that?-Not very well at the present
time.
655. Are you paid in money?-Yes; in cash. Of course it comes
through the proprietor's hands.
656. Does it enter into your annual accounting with the
proprietor?-Yes.
657. The proprietor gets the whole money for the oil, retains his
third, and hands you over or puts to your credit the remaining
two-thirds?-Yes. Of course if a man requires the money to clear
his way with the proprietor, it answers that end. If not, then the
proprietors pass over the money to him.
658. Do you really think that if the proprietor had no store there,
and you could buy your dry goods and provisions from anybody
you like, you would be better off with respect to what you buy?-
No; we could not do without the proprietor's store, because, if we
have to give our earnings to the proprietor, we are obliged to take
goods from his store in return.
659. But supposing you had liberty to sell your fish where you
pleased, and to buy your goods where you pleased, do you think
you would be any better off than you are?-Yes. There is a man
named Laurence Leslie who went to the fishing in the same boat
with me last summer. He lives in Lerwick, and was a free man,
and he dried his fish for himself, and after he had paid for salt and
curing he had about £5 more than any of us.
660. Do you mean that he had about £5 more from the home
fishing than you had?-Yes.
661. Can you tell now the proceeds of your last summer's
fishing?- We will be paid the price that has been paid already in the country.
662. But you don't know yet what you are to get?-No; Mr. Bruce
said at the commencement that he would give us the currency of
the country. Now Mr. Bruce is one of the greatest fish-dealers in
the country, and of course he has it so far in his power to make the
currency; but it is likely we will get the same as the other
merchants are paying.
663. Then, in speaking of the sum which Leslie has earned more
than you, you are calculating in this way: you know the price
which other merchants have paid, and you know the quantity you
have delivered?-Yes; and we know in that way what the amount
will be.
664. What do you think the amount of your take will be?-About
£18.
665. You think your fishing for the whole of last season will be
£18, at the prices which are going in Lerwick?-Yes.
666. And you know how much Laurence Leslie has got?-Yes.
667. Had he about the same quantity of fish as you-Yes; he had
the same quantity divided green.
668. What quantity had you?-I cannot exactly say. We had so
much ling, so much cod, and so much saith.
669. You say he was in the same boat with you: were not all the
boat's crew obliged to fish to Mr. Bruce?-All but that one man.
670. You separated your fish: did you just give Leslie his
proportion of the whole fish in the boat?-Yes. We kept an
account of his fish and of ours, and we gave him his share; and
then he dried his part for himself.
671. How many men were in the boat?-Six.
672. Then, when you came to shore, you delivered five-sixths of
the fish to Mr. Bruce, and Leslie got one sixth?-Yes; that was the
way it generally went. Sometimes we would give all the fish to
Mr. Bruce, and sometimes all to Laurence Leslie, and we kept an
account; so that we could put the thing all right in the end.
673. Did you do that among yourselves?-Yes.
674. How did Leslie happen to go in that boat among Mr. Bruce's
men?-Because he belonged to the place originally, and he agreed
with us to go. He only left the place last year.
675. Has he not had a farm there for the last year?-No.
676. And therefore he did not consider himself bound to deliver
his fish to Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
677. Who did he sell his fish to?-To Hay.
678. Were they cured when he sold them?-Yes. Mr. Bruce
would not allow him to weigh his fish on his scales and weights,
because he would not give them to him.
679. Who forbade him?-Mr. Bruce's factor.
680. Was that Mr. Irvine?-It was not Mr. Irvine; it was the man
who was there in his place. I recollect that one day we were a
good deal put about in consequence of that. It was a very coarse
day at the fishing, and Hay & Co. did not have weights at the
place, and Mr. Bruce's man would not allow us to weigh the fish
on his weights.
681. But you were obliged to weigh them in order to find out how
much was Mr. Bruce's share?-We were obliged to weigh the fish
in order to know how they were to be divided among ourselves,
and they had to lie for a whole day until weights were got.
682. Do you know how much money Leslie got for his fishing?-I
think the whole amount was pretty nearly £26; but then he had
expenses for salt and cure to be taken from that-perhaps 30s.
683. He would also have his own time and trouble to allow for?-
He had a lad for curing the fish; that is included in the 30s. Of
course Leslie would have some more trouble with it than we had.
684. That makes a difference of £6, 10s. between you, whereas
you said the difference was about £5?-There may be some
difference of that kind; I am not exactly sure to a few shillings.
685. Was there no objection made to Laurence Leslie going in the
boat with you?-They did not know that he was, not to fish for
Mr. Bruce until we commenced the fishing, and then they could
not object; but Mr. Bruce's rule is, that he won't take part of a
boat. The whole boat must be for him; and in that way there have
been men who have been forced to part company who were nearly
as bad to part as man and wife.
686. After the boat's crew was made up, was any objection taken
to Leslie fishing with you?-They could not object then, because
we had begun to the fishing, [Page 14] and they could not get
another man to take his place, even although they had objected.
687. Do you keep a pass-book, at Mr. Bruce's store for the
supplies you get for your house?-No; it would be of no use for
me to do so.
688. Why?-Because I do not know the prices of the goods, and
they won't mark them down themselves.
689. But they would mark the quantities of the articles you got,
would they not?-No; they would not be bothered with that.
690. Have you ever asked for a pass-book?-Yes; I had a
pass-book, and I had to drop it, because Irvine said he would not
be bothered with it.
691. Does Mr. Irvine keep the store himself?-Yes.
692. Does he collect the rents on the property?-No; Mr. Bruce
carries through the annual accounting himself.
693. When you go to settle with him, the books of the store are all
made up by Mr. Irvine; and does Mr. Bruce state the balance to
you?-Yes.
694. Does he show you how it is made up?-Mr. Irvine tells us the
amount we have had from the store, and hands that in to Mr.
Bruce. Mr. Bruce enters that against us along with the rent, and
tells us the balance.
695. What means have you for checking that statement of his?
How do you know whether it is correct or not?-We don't have
the chance of knowing whether is correct or not.
696. Do you not know how much goods you have got?-Perhaps
we might; but we cannot know the price of the goods.
697. But you might know how much goods you have got, and how
much fish you have delivered, and how much you have to pay?-
But we don't know the price of the goods.
698. Do you not know the price of the goods at the end?-We hear
it read over as fast perhaps as it can be read.
699. Do you not get a copy of it?-Not of the shop account.
700. Have you ever asked for one?-No.
701. I thought you told me that you had a copy for some years?-
Yes; from Mr. Bruce, but not from Mr. Irvine, for the store. I have
had a copy of my account from Mr. Bruce for the whole thing, and
it contained a sum for the goods got from the store; but it was all
one sum.
702. It is a slump sum, and does not show the different articles?-
Yes; that is the account which I promised to send.
703. You say you have asked for a pass-book, and have been
refused it?-Yes; I had one, and Mr. Irvine threw it back again,
and said he would not be bothered with it.
704. When was that?-I think about two years ago.
705. You brought a pass-book and handed it to Mr. Irvine, and
asked him to put your account into it as the articles were
furnished, and he refused to do so?-Yes; I wished to have a
knowledge of how I was going on.
706. When does the annual settlement take place?-Generally in
February or March.
707. Where do you meet for the purpose of settling?-At
Sumburgh, at Mr. Bruce's office.
708. Has he an office in his own house?-Yes.
709. Are all the people summoned to meet there on a particular
day?-There are certain men called for a particular day, according
as he can get through them,-so many men for each day.
710. How long does it take you to settle with him?-Perhaps three
or four hours. It is possible I might be three or four hours with
him myself. Generally three men go in a boat, and the three men
would probably take six hours, or perhaps only four hours.
711. You said there were six men in your boat last year?-Yes,
there were six in our boat, but three is the usual number in the
smaller boats.
712. And they will perhaps all go together to Mr. Bruce?-Yes,
the men in every boat go together; and Mr. Bruce gives us every
chance of being satisfied with our accounts that he possibly can.
713. Except giving you a note of them?-He will give us a note.
714. A short note; but he won't give you the full account?-We
don't get the full account from the shop, but that, of course is not
in Mr. Bruce's hand.
715. He only gets the sum-total due at the shop?-Yes; and he has
the rest in his own books. The rest of the balance is in his own
hand, and of course he gives us every satisfaction about it.
716. But the shop is his too?-Yes.
717. Did you ever ask him to let a pass-book be allowed you, or an
account to be given you at the shop?-No; I never asked him for
that.
718. Did you ever complain to him that you did not get it?-No.
719. Did you ever complain about any of the sums brought out in
the shop account as not being due by you?-No, I could not do
that, because I could scarcely tell whether it was right or wrong.
720. In fact you trusted to the honesty of the shopkeeper?-I was
obliged to do that.
721. Then you say that you never see any statement of your
account for goods supplied to you at the shop at all?-None,
except the total. The total is handed in to Mr. Bruce at settling
time.
722. Is there anything else you wish to say?-There is one thing I
would like to ask. In consequence of my coming here, I expect
nothing but that I will be turned off; and I would ask how I am to
proceed.
723. I don't think you need be afraid of that; but if there is
anything done to you in consequence of the evidence which you
have given here, you had better write and let me know. Of course
I am only to be here for a short time; but it would be my duty to
communicate the fact to some of my superiors. There is one other
thing I would like to mention: that any amount of liberty would be
of very little account in Shetland, so long as the proprietors have
power to turn off men at any time when they have a mind to do so.
724. At the end of the summer fishing is there generally a balance
in your favour at the accounting between you and the landlord?-
Sometimes there is, and sometimes not. I believe I generally stand
about half and half.
725. Do you mean that if your fishing is worth £18, your account
at the store and your rent will be about £9 or £10?-No; there are
some years in which my account at the store, and my rent, are
above the whole amount of my year's earnings,-while there are
other years when my earnings are above my shop account and rent.
726. When the year's earnings are less than your account, is the
balance written down against you for the next year?-Yes.
727. Then that is an additional reason why you are bound to fish to
your landlord, because when you are in his debt you cannot very
well sell your fish to another?-If we had our liberty, we could sell
our fish to another merchant.
728. But suppose you had liberty, would not the fact of your being
in debt to your landlord still be a sort of obligation upon you to
fish for him?-It would still bind us, of course.
729. Does that cause operate, in fact, to tie the fishermen to the
same merchant?-When the men have had their liberty, that has
been the case.
730. Was it the case before Mr. Bruce took the fishing into his
own hands?-Yes.
731. So that many men in those times would be unable to sell their
fish to another merchant than Messrs. Hay or Mr. Robertson, who
had the fishing then?-Yes; of course there were times when the
fishing was small, and perhaps men required a lot of meal, and
they could not get it without going into debt; and when merchants
supported them in that way, the men could not do better than hand
over their fish to the merchants to whom they were in debt.
732. So that there was even then a certain obligation on the men to
fish to a particular merchant?-[Page 15] Yes. When a man is in
debt, he is under an obligation to clear his debt.
733. But your complaint is, that you are much more strictly bound
now?-Yes; there was no obligation for a man to clear his debt
with any merchant before now.
734. Was there then any obligation to purchase at that merchant's
store?-None.
735. Except that perhaps they would not get credit elsewhere?-
Exactly.
736. In those times did the men get advances in money during the
season when they asked them?-Yes.
737. But you still get that?-Yes, we get that still, of course.
738. If you choose, you can get your provisions elsewhere; and if
you choose to get them elsewhere, you will get all your money at
the end of the season?-Yes, if we had any over; but if we had no
money over, of course the merchant from whom we had to get our
goods would have to want.
Lerwick, January 2, 1872, LAURENCE LESLIE, examined.
739. You are now a fisherman in Lerwick?-Yes.
740. You formerly lived at Dunrossness?-Yes.
741. And you had a piece of ground from Mr. Bruce of
Sumburgh?-Yes.
742. You have been present during the examination of the
previous witness, and heard the whole of his examination?-Yes.
743. Do you concur in that part of it which referred to yourself
with regard to the quantity of fish you got last season?-I do.
744. What may be the total price you got for your cured fish?-We
had three different kinds of fish-saith, cod, and ling. We got 12s.
per cwt. for saith, I think 18s. for cod, and 20s. for ling, dried.
745. The quantity which you had to sell was the same when
weighed green as that which Laurence Mail delivered to Mr.
Bruce?-Of course.
746. You lived in Dunrossness for a number of years?-Yes.
747. Do you concur with the rest of the evidence which Laurence
Mail gave?-I do.
748. It was all correct?-Yes.
749. Do you know a man named William Brown at Millpond?-
Yes.
750. Was he a fisherman?-Yes.
751. How far did he live from your place?-I think about two
miles.
752. Do you know whether at any time lately he and some other
old men went fishing on their own account, and were obliged to
pay liberty money?-Yes; he stated that he had been applied to for
payment of liberty money.
753. How long ago was that?-I think it was three years ago.
754. Is Brown an old man?-Yes; perhaps between fifty and sixty.
755. Would he be able to come to Lerwick?-He might.
756. Would it not be rather hard for a man of his age to come this
length?-I think it would be rather hard; but I think he could
come.
757. To whom had he to pay that liberty money?-To Mr.
Grierson of Quendale, his landlord.
758. Is Mr. Grierson a fish-merchant too?-Yes.
759. Do you know James Williamson at Berlin, Dunrossness?-
Yes.
760. Is he on Mr. Grierson's land?-Yes.
761. Do you know anything about a boy of his who had gone out to
service with a neighbouring farmer lately?-I know that he has a
boy, but I cannot say anything about him going to service. I don't
think Williamson could come here; he is in ill health at present.
Lerwick, January 2, 1872, WALTER WILLIAMSON, examined.
762. You are a fisherman in the island of Burra?-I am.
763. Do you hold a piece of ground there under Messrs. Hay &
Co., who are the lessees of Burra under Misses Scott of
Scalloway?-I do.
764. You are one of the men who signed the following letter which
has been addressed to me:-
' Burra Isle, 1st Jan.
1872.
'SIR, We, the undersigned, desire to give evidence to the
following effect, and will be glad to be informed when it will be
convenient for you to receive our evidence':-
'We are bound by agreement to fish to our landlord; but no
price is agreed upon until the time of settlement, which occurs
about once a year. We have then to take what price is offered; and
if we or our sons fish to any other person, we have to pay 20s. each
yearly of '<liberty money>.'
'We can get no leases of our farms, and have to build and
repair our own houses at our own expense, without any
compensation when leaving the farm, or when ejected from it.
'As we settle only once a year, of course we have to buy from
our landlord's shop till the end of the year, at which time we
seldom have any money to get, except when we have better
fishings than ordinary.
'If we capture whales, we have to pay one-third of the
proceeds to the landlord.
'Those of us who have daughters engaged in knitting can
testify to the fact that they are invariably paid in goods, both for
the goods they sell, and also for their wages when engaged to knit
for the hosiery dealers.
'We have to add, that we wish to be free to fish to whom we
please, or to cure our own fish, and to receive compensation for
improvements effected on our houses or farms when we leave
them.
'Other details we will state when called before you. Meantime
we remain, sir, your most obedient servants,
'WALTER WILLIAMSON.
'GILBERT GOODLAD.
'LAURENCE POTTINGER.
'PETER SMITH.
'LAURENCE INKSTER. 'CHARLES SINCLAIR
'JOHN NEWTON GOODLAD.
'HANCE SMITH.
'ROBERT SINCLAIR.
'JOHN POTTINGER.
'ALEXANDER SINCLAIR.
'THOMAS CHRISTIE.
'GEORGE JAMIESON.
'To WILLIAM GUTHRIE, Esq.,
' H.M. Commissioner, Lerwick.'
-I am.
765. You say in that letter, 'We are bound by agreement to fish to
our landlord, but no price is agreed upon until the time of
settlement, which occurs about once a year. We have then to take
what price offered; and if we or our sons fish to any other person,
we have to pay 20s. each yearly of 'liberty money.' Is that an
obligation which you have entered into with Messrs. Hay &
Co.?-It is an obligation that we are under, that we are bound over
to them.
766. Have you signed any obligation to that effect?-I was asked
to sign an obligation to that effect; but I said I could not sign to
bind my sons, and that I would on no account come under that
obligation.
767. How long ago was that?-To the best of my recollection, it
was about eight years ago.
768. Was there an agreement to that effect handed to you for
signature?-Yes.
769. And to a number of other men at the same time?-Yes.
770. By whom was it handed to you?-By Mr. Wm. Irvine, who is
a partner of the firm of Hay & Co.
771. Was that in Burra or here?-It was in Messrs. Hay & Co.'s
office in Lerwick.
772. Was it handed to the other men at the same time?-It was
offered to them at the same time that it [Page 16] was offered to
me. A certain number of them were present at the time.
773. How many?-I should think there might have been five
present, exclusive of myself.
774. Did they all sign it?-I cannot say that they did, for I went out
and left them there.
775. Then you are under no written obligation to fish for your
landlord?-No.
776. Is there any other understanding or bargain between you that
you shall fish only for him?-Yes, we were told that we must fish
for them.
777. When was that said to you?-At the time, when I took a
property from them in Burra.
778. How long is that since?-About fourteen years ago.
779. Who told you so then?-The late Mr. William Hay.
780. Have you ever been told so since?-I have.
781. By whom?-By Mr. William Irvine.
782. How long ago is that?-It is just eight years.
783. Was that at the same time when you were asked to sign the
agreement?-Yes; it was on the same day.
784. Have you ever been told so since that time?-No; I have
never sought to fish for anybody else, nor asked my liberty since
then. I asked for my liberty that day when I was asked to sign the
agreement.
785. Was it given to you?-No. I offered to pay 20s. if they would
give me my liberty, but I could not get it for that.
786. Was any price fixed by them for that?-I offered 20s. for my
liberty to fish for whom I liked, or to cure for myself, and I could
not get it for the paying of the 20s.
787. Were you told what they would give it to you for?-No; they
would not say.
788. Do you wish to fish for anybody else?-I should certainly
wish to fish for anybody that I could get most from; but I should
like especially to be the master of my own fish, to cure them for
myself, and to sell them to the best advantage.
789. You mean you would like to catch and cure your own fish,
and then sell them, do you?-Yes; that is what I would like.
790. Why do you, not do it?-Because we would be ejected from
the place if we were not to deliver our fish to them.
791. What is your reason for supposing that?-Because we have
been told so.
792. Was it on the occasion you have mentioned, eight years ago,
that you were told so?-It was.
793. Have you been told since that you would be ejected if you did
not deliver your fish to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I have never since
asked anything about it, so that I had no reason to be told so.
794. Has any person been ejected for selling fish to other
merchants than Hay & Co., or for curing his own fish?-I think
there have been such cases in Burra. I believe John Leask was
ejected for not serving as a fisherman to Messrs. Hay & Co.
795. How long ago was that?-I think it would be about thirteen
years since, or close thereby.
796. That is an old story. Has there been anybody ejected since?-
I don't remember any one at present.
797. Do you know from your own knowledge of any threats of
ejection having been made to parties who were fishing for
others?-Yes.
798. Who were so threatened?-We were threatened at that very
time, eight years ago, that we should be ejected if we did not sign
the agreement.
799. But do you know of any threats to particular parties for
particular offences since that time?-There never have been any
threats made to me, and I cannot remember exactly about them
having been used to others; but there are parties here who may
remember better about that than I do.
800. You say further in the letter, 'We can get no leases of our
farms, and we have to build and repair our own houses at our own
expense, without any compensation when leaving the farm, or
when ejected from it.' That does not exactly fall under this
inquiry, though it may perhaps indirectly affect it; but I suppose
the obligation to build and repair your own houses is part of the
bargain you enter into on taking the land?-It is.
801. Are you not at liberty to make your own bargain about the
land, the same as any other tenant in Scotland is?-I am not aware
of that.
802. Suppose you were to object to make such a bargain, could
you not leave the land and get a holding elsewhere?-It is not
likely we would get a holding elsewhere.
803. Why?-We would very likely be deprecated as not being
legal subjects, and the heritors would all know that we were not
convenient parties to give land to. What is one reason; and
another reason is, that places are sometimes not very easily got.
804. Do the same conditions exist on other properties in
Shetland?-So far as I know, they prevail all over the country, or
nearly so.
805. You think that if you were trying to move, you would not get
free of a condition of that sort?-We might get free of it for a
time, but by next year the parties to whose ground we had removed
might bind us down to the same thing.
806. But supposing all the men were united in refusing to agree to
such conditions, there could be no compulsion upon them?-They
have not the courage, I expect, to make such an agreement among
themselves.
807. To come to the more proper subject of the inquiry: you go on
to say, 'As we settle only once year, of course we have to buy from
our landlord's shop till the end of the year, at which time we have
seldom any money to get, except when we have better fishings
than ordinary.' Your settlement, I suppose, takes place about the
beginning of the year for the whole of the previous year?-Yes;
generally a month after the beginning of the year.
808. And at that time you settle with your landlords, Messrs. Hay
& Co., for all the provisions you have got from their shop?-Yes.
809. Where is their shop?-They have shops both at Lerwick and
Scalloway.
810. Does the same man keep an account at both shops?-The
same company keeps a store at Scalloway and a store at Lerwick.
811. But has the same man a book in both shops?-Yes; he has a
book in both shops.
812. The men deal at both?-Some men in the islands deal at
both, and others, again, have liberty to deal only at one.
813. Then, at the settlement time, you settle for all the provisions
you have got from the shops, and for the rent that is due for your
farm, and they set against that the price of the fish you have
delivered?-Yes.
814. And you say that generally the account against you is as large,
or larger, than that in your favour?-Taking it generally amongst
the tenants on the island, I believe it is.
815. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the
season when you ask for it?-Yes, I have always, or generally, got
it when I asked for it.
816. Suppose that at the close of the fishing season-that is, in
September-you were to ask for all the money that was due for
your fish, or for a sum about equal to the value of your fish, would
you get it?-I don't expect I would get it.
817. Have you ever asked for it?-Yes.
818. In September, or about that time?-I asked it on 1st
November, thirteen years ago.
819. That is a long time ago?-That was the first year I was
resident in Burra; I had been there for a twelvemonth then.
820. What did you ask for, then?-I asked for the value of the fish
that belonged to a fee'd man who had been along with me for
three months in autumn. I fee'd a young man for these months to
go along with me to the summer fishing at that time; he was to get
one-third of the fish, and I was to supply him with boat, lines, and
lodging. At the end of autumn he went home, and he wanted me
to introduce him to Messrs. Hay's agent, so that he might get his
money.
[Page 17]
821. Did he want to leave the island?-He did not belong to the
island; and as he was going home, he wanted to be paid, and he
asked me to introduce to the agent, which I did.
822. Did you apply for his money?-Yes, as being a stranger I
wanted them to settle with him; but they would not settle with him
at all, I then asked for an advance of 20s. on my own account, and
I would give it to him for his trouble; but they would not give that
either.
823. At that time had you and he a large contra account against
you in the shop?-Neither of us had any account against us at all.
He told me that at the time he had not a penny taken out from
either of their stores.
824. Was he offered goods at that time?-Yes; in my hearing.
825. What was said about that?-He was told to take anything he
wanted out of the store.
826. Where was that?-At Scalloway, I expect, or Lerwick.
827. Can you tell me of anything of the same kind happening
within the last two or three years?-I don't recollect anything of
the kind happening within that time, so far as I was personally
concerned.
828. Have you, within the last two or three years, always had a
large account against you at the beginning of the winter?-Not of
a bad debt.
829. But have you had a large account against you for goods
supplied during the course of the season?-Yes; I have generally
had a considerable account so far as our accounts go.
830. Was that the reason for your not asking for a settlement of it
at that time?-I cannot say whether that would be the reason or
not.
831. Did you know that you had got the value of your fish, or
something approaching to it, in provisions?-Some of us in Burra
had, no doubt, got the whole value in goods, and had even
overdrawn their accounts, but others of us had not.
832. But if you want money in the course of the autumn or in the
early part of the winter, do you not get an advance on applying for
it at Messrs. Hay's place?-I only know of those getting it who
might be worthy of it, who had not overdrawn their accounts.
833. But they will give you money as readily as they will give you
goods now?-I suppose they would in Lerwick, but I don't think
they would do that at Scalloway.
834. What is your reason for supposing that?-About twelve
months ago I went once, twice, and at last three times with some
fish to their fish-curing place in Scalloway; and their law there was
that we should only get goods for our fish, but no money.
835. Who told you that?-Mr. Gilbert Tulloch, the shopkeeper, the
master of the store.
836. Is he the shopkeeper for Messrs. Hay at Scalloway?-Yes.
837. Did you on that occasion ask for money for the fish you
delivered?-The last time I went up, after taking a number of
small things that I was requiring, there was a shilling due to me on
the fish which I had delivered, and I asked for it. Mr. Tulloch said
that I knew it was not the custom to give money. I said I knew that
too well, but that it could not affect him very much to give me a
few pence, as he had got much more from me in the course of the
year. He hung on for a little bit and then put his hand on the
counter and gave it to me; but he bade me remember it was to be
the last.
838. You say the amount of your account is made up in the
beginning of the year: how did you know that the cost of the
provisions you were getting at the time you have now mentioned
came to within 1s. of what was due?-There is a misunderstanding
between us there. We have an opportunity of taking goods out of
their stores; but when we come to their store at Scalloway with a
little fish, we get goods from them there, without them entering
into the annual settlement. That is not the proper place where we
deliver our fish to Messrs. Hay-the proper place is in the island
of Burra itself, but we have a chance of coming to Scalloway
occasionally when we have got a few small fish, and we get goods
home with us.
839. Then, when you want goods, you take the fish to
Scalloway?-Yes, but we can also get goods there, although we
deliver the fish at the proper place in Burra.
840. In that case, do you get a line from the manager at Burra
stating that you have delivered so much fish?-No.
841. Then how do they know to allow you goods?-When we take
the fish up to the store at Scalloway, we only get goods for their
exact value. In the case I have mentioned I got goods up to the
value of my fish within a shilling.
842. Did you not say you could also get goods at Scalloway
although you delivered the fish at Burra?-Yes; that is on account
of the fish which we give to the local factor.
843. And the goods you get in that case go to the general account
for the whole year?-Yes.
844. Then those which you deliver at Scalloway are not put into
the general account at all?-No.
845. That is to say, you are at liberty to deliver your fish elsewhere
than to the factor at Burra?-Yes.
846. But the only place where you are at liberty to deliver them, if
you do not deliver them to the factor in Burra, is to the store at
Scalloway?-Yes.
847. And you take them there if you want a supply of goods?-
Yes.
848. Is there any reason for preferring that way of dealing?-We
have none.
849. But have you any reason for preferring to take the fish to
Scalloway and getting the goods, rather than delivering them to the
factor at Burra and having the goods entered in your general
account?-We have then got the pleasure of seeing our fish paid
for all at once. That is all the advantage we have about it, so far as
I know.
850. Have you a chance of getting more money in hand if you take
the fish to Scalloway?-Not one farthing more. I have got none
this year.
851. But on the other system you may still get an advance of
money if you ask for it?-Yes; I believe I might get some money if
I wanted it.
852. Would you get it from the factor at Burra, or at Scalloway or
Lerwick?-So far as I am aware, I would only get it at Lerwick.
853. Do you purchase in that way, from Messrs. Hay, all your
provisions and clothing, and everything you want for the support
of your families?-As a general thing over the islands, it is only
from them we can get them. It is only from them we need ask
them, because we have no power to sell the labour of our hands to
any one else.
854. And you have no credit with any one else?-Some of us
would have credit; but the system prevents us from getting credit,
because we could not pay the parties from whom we got the goods.
855. But if these parties knew that you were getting money from
Messrs. Hay for your fish, would it not be possible for you to get
the money from Messrs. Hay, and with it to pay the other
dealers?-That may be done no doubt on a very small scale, for
anything I know. I believe it is done, to a certain extent, by
persons who get a few pence or a few pounds from Messrs. Hay;
but it is only a few of the men who are able to deal in that way.
856. You say in your letter that you don't know the prices you are
to get for your fish until the end of the year: is that so?-Yes, it is
so.
857. Messrs. Hay & Co. do not fix the price until what time of the
year?-They do not fix it until we settle-about a month after the
New Year.
858. So that you don't know before then what you are to get?-We
never do.
859. Have you ever been to agree to fish at a certain price per
cwt.?-I never was asked to agree to that during the whole
fourteen years I have served them.
860. Would you like to have a certain price per cwt. [Page 18]
fixed before the commencement of the season?-We should like
that well enough if we had power ourselves to inquire after it, but
we should not like it if it was to be left in the hands of another who
had power to make the price what he pleased.
861. You also say, in your letter, 'If we capture whales, we have to
pay one-third of the proceeds to the landlord.' Is that a frequent
source of profit to you in Shetland?-It is not, a very frequent
source. It is occasional, but not frequent.
862. What is your objection to that system?-We think that as we
the fishermen, drive the whales ashore, and they are all flinched
and wrought below high-water mark, we have a right to the whole
proceeds. We think the proprietor has no right to anything at all,
any more than he has to the fish that come ashore in our boats.
863. But when you get the whales you get two-thirds of the oil?-
We do.
864. And you can sell that in any market you like-I believe we
can.
865. Do you get cash for it?-Yes.
866. So that there is no truck there?-No; none.
867. Do you dispose of the oil yourselves, or is it done for you by
the landlord?-I always knew of it being sold by public auction on
the beach where it was landed.
868. Is it sold in lots consisting of the amount of oil which each
man gets?-I always knew of it being sold in company; but it is set
up in lots, perhaps of a tun, or five tuns, or half a tun, and so on,
and it is carried away by the purchaser.
869. Then the landlord does not sell it you?-No.
870. How is his third set apart?-It is taken off the whole money
when it has been paid by the purchasers. Any party or parties who
buy the oil at auction, pay the money to the landlord, and he gets a
third, and pays the other two-thirds to the fishermen.
871. Is it paid to you at the time, or is it put into your general
account?-So far as I know, it is always paid at the time.
872. But that is not a common occurrence?-No. Perhaps it may
not occur in the same place for ten or twelve or twenty years, or
sometimes longer than that.
873. Does not the value of the oil go into the general accounts of
the men at the end of the year?-I have had a share in whales on
two occasions, and I believe that some of the fishermen who are in
debt to the landlord will allow their shares to go into the general
account. Those who are not in debt will get the money clear out.
874. You are not obliged to take that in goods?-I never knew of
that being done.
875. In speaking of the fishing, for which you settle with Messrs.
Hay in the beginning of the year, all your evidence has had regard
to what is called the home or summer fishing?-Yes.
876. It has not had reference to the Faroe fishing-Not so much,
so far as I know.
877. It is only with regard to the home fishing that you are bound
to fish for them?-It is only with regard to it that I can speak, for I
am not a Faroe fisherman.
878. Are the men in Burra free to ship for the Faroe fishing with
any master they like?-I expect they are; but there are some of the
men to be examined afterwards, who will be better witnesses on
that subject than I can be.
879. The fish you take in the summer fishing are ling, cod, and
haddocks?-Yes. There are plenty in the islands who fish herrings
also.
880. But that is a distinct thing altogether from the summer
fishing?-Yes.
881. The fishing you have been speaking to during all your
examination has been the fishing for ling and cod?-I have been
speaking of the whole home fishing of every kind, the herring
fishing as well.
882. What do you catch in what you call the home fishing?-Ling,
cod, and herrings.
883. And haddocks?-Yes; there are plenty of the men who catch
haddocks also.
884. You spoke of taking some fish to Scalloway: were not these
merely the small fish or haddocks?-Yes; the haddocks chiefly,
and small cod.
885. Is that done at a particular season of the year?-Yes.
886. That is, when Messrs. Hay have not men at Burra to receive
the large fish; or have they men there all the year round?-They
have them all the year round.
887. Then why is it generally the smaller fish that you take at
Scalloway?-I cannot give a particular statement why it is, except
that the men get their account cleared off at Scalloway with these
small fish. It is only haddocks that are taken there. The haddocks
have never been taken in at their fish-curing station at Burra, so far
as I know.
888. At what season of the year are these haddocks generally
caught?-In winter.
889. Do they smoke the haddocks in Burra?-No; they never did
that.
890. Their establishment there is only for curing the larger fish?-
Yes.
891. Then, in order to get your haddocks smoked and cured, you
must bring them to Scalloway, and deliver them at the store
there?-Yes.
892. And that is the reason why you bring some of your fish to
Scalloway?-It is.
893. Supposing you bring these fish there, is it still in your option
to let them enter your general account, instead of getting goods for
them at the time?-We can either take the value of them at the
time in goods, or we can have them entered in our general account.
894. Have you ever asked, when bringing fish to Scalloway, to get
the price of them in money?-Yes.
895. Have you asked for the whole price in money?-I don't
remember that I ever asked to get the whole of it in that way.
896. Why?-Because, of course, I knew I would not get it.
897. How did you know that?-I knew it, because last year I asked
only for a shilling on one occasion, and I was told by the
shopkeeper that it was to be the last.
898. Then you go on to say in your letter, 'Those of us who have
daughters engaged in knitting can testify to the fact that they are
invariably paid in goods both for the goods they sell and also for
their wages when engaged to knit for the hosiery dealers.' Have
you sold goods for your daughters, or do they generally take them
to the market themselves?-I have no daughters, and I cannot give
evidence about the knitting.
899. You further say, 'We have to add, that we wish to be free to
fish to whom we please or to cure our own fish, and to receive
compensation for improvements effected on our houses or farms
when we leave them. Other details we will state when called
before you. That is the same complaint which you made at the
commencement of your letter?-Yes.
900. Are there any other details on the subject which occur to you
at this moment, and which you desire to add?-There is one thing
which I desire to ask on behalf of myself and of the parties who
shall be examined after me. I have been desired to ask you
whether they shall be at liberty to speak here? If her Majesty's
Government will give an obligation to protect them, they will
speak then, and if not, they won't.
901. What is the obligation to protect them that you want?-An
obligation that they shall not be ejected or fined.
902. I don't think there is any probability of that. You know you
are all protected by the law, and I can give you no further
protection than the law affords. The Government have it under
contemplation at present to alter the law, and this inquiry is for the
purpose of ascertaining whether the law ought to be altered in any
respect.-If we had not been under the belief that it would surely
be altered, we would not have come here.
903. Do you remember, three or four years ago, of the men in
Burra getting up a memorial stating their [Page 19] grievances,
and what they wanted, and having it forwarded to the agent for the
proprietor of the island?-I do.
904. Were you concerned in that matter?-I was.
905. Was there any inquiry made at that time?-There was a
petition sent up at that time to the trustee in Edinburgh for Misses
Scott of Scalloway, by their tenants in Burra, asking for their
liberty.
906. Was there any particular reason at that time for the petition
being got up?-There was plenty of reason.
907. Was there any more reason for it then than at any other time?
Was there any threatened expulsion, or any strict enforcement of
the obligation to fish?-If my memory serves me right it was
immediately after we had been asked to sign an obligation in
Messrs. Hay's office to pay for our sons' labour.
908. But you said that was eight years ago?-Yes; about that time.
909. Was the memorial not sent up within the last three or four
years?-No; it was longer than that, to the best of my recollection.
Our petition was got up very shortly after we were wanted to sign
the obligation.
910. Did you complain much at that time about the herring
fishery?-I believe some of the men did but am not a herring
fisher.
911. What is the usual amount of rent that you pay in Burra?-It
will run from £6 to £2, 10s., or perhaps as high as £7.
912. That rent is paid for a small piece of ground?-Yes.
913. Is there a right to the pasture in the scattald besides?-Yes.
914. Your scattalds in Burra are not extensive or of much value?-
No; they are of very little value.
915. Do you know of any other agreement having been signed by
the Burra men, or asked from them, except that one eight years
ago?-I have heard of another, but it was before I came to the
island.
916. Was there any particular reason for getting the agreement
signed eight years ago? Was there general renewal of your
holdings; or what reason was assigned for it?-I know of no
reason for it, except merely that we were to fish for nobody except
Messrs. Hay & Co.
917. But was there any reason for it being signed that particular
time?-I believe it was about that time, or immediately after, that
Mr. Irvine came to be a partner of Messrs. Hay & Co.
918. There was a change in the firm about that time?-Yes.
919. Are there any leases given in Burra?-I never knew of any
being given.
920. Do you know that most of the young men in Burra go to the
Faroe fishing?-They do.
921. Do you know that they have shipped both with Messrs. Hay
and with other merchants?-Yes.
922. Do they get the same terms both from Messrs. Hay and from
other merchants?-I believe they do, so far as I know.
923. Do you know from your own knowledge, whether there is any
objection made by Messrs. Hay to their shipping with other
merchants for the Faroe fishing?-I have not heard of any recently,
but it used to be objected to a few years back. There have been
good fishings at Faroe for some time back, and all the agents can
get plenty of men; so that there is no need for any restrictions.
924. Supposing you were at liberty to deliver your fish to any other
merchant than Messrs. Hay, what reason have you for supposing
that you would be better paid than you now are?-I have been a
fisherman in Burra for fourteen years, and I was a fisherman in
Havera for twenty years before that. There I cured my own fish,
and I could do with them what I liked; and I learned there how
much I could make by curing them for myself, or selling them to
any one within reach who would buy them green.
925. It costs you something, both money and trouble in curing
them?-Yes.
926. But, notwithstanding that, you would make more money by
being allowed cure them for yourself?-We believe that, and we
know it. We know that we would make more money than we have
ever got.
927. To whom would you have an opportunity of selling your fish
cured?-We could them to any one who would give us the most
for them.
928. Are there people there who would buy them from you?-Yes,
there are plenty of merchants in Shetland or in the south country
who would come and buy them; and we would have a chance of
sending them south at our own risk, or to our own advantage.
929. Has any one in Burra ever cured his own fish?-No; I believe
no one has ever done so since Burra rose out of the water.
930. Has any one near Burra done so?-Havera is near Burra, and
belongs to the same parish, and I cured my own fish there.
931. Why did you leave Havera and go to Burra?-Havera is a
very small island, and it became too strait for me.
932. The population was increasing too rapidly?-Yes.
933. Had you not a holding of your own there?-No; I got married,
and had to look out for a holding somewhere; and I was, by the
law of necessity, compelled to move against my will.
934. Are there any dealers in Scalloway who would buy your fish
from you if you were allowed to sell them?-Yes; there are
Charles Nicholson and Robert Tait.
935. Do they buy fish cured?-They buy them either cured or
uncured, and also what may be properly called half-cured-that is,
salted but not dried.
936. Do they employ fishermen?-Charles Nicholson employs
fishermen.
937. Do the fishermen who are employed by Nicholson and Tait
supply their fish to them green or dry, as they like?-They only
give them to them green, so far as I know.
938. But these merchants also buy cured fish from independent
fishermen?-Yes.
939. With regard to your farm, do you sell any produce off your
land?-We sell none.
940. What does it bear?-Oats and barley, or bere, and potatoes or
turnips, and some cabbage.
941. Do you sell these things, or do you consume them
yourselves?-We consume them either by ourselves, or by the
stock on our farm. We have some cattle and sheep and pigs .
942. Do you sell your stock?-The cattle are generally sold to
relieve the tenant's necessities, and in order to let him have a few
shillings in money.
943. What is that money used for? Is it for things that you cannot
buy in the store?-Yes; and sometimes for paying our rent.
944. I thought the rent was entered as part of your account with
Messrs. Hay?-If our earnings are not sufficient to meet Messrs.
Hay's account, or if we have overdrawn our account with them,
then we sell an animal, and the price of it is put into the account.
945. Is there anything else for which you have to sell your
cattle?-I am not aware of anything.
946. How do you sell them? Is it at a roup or at a public
market?-We sell our cattle where we can dispose of them to the
best advantage-sometimes at the market at Lerwick, and at other
times cattle-dealers come round and ask us for them. If we choose
to give them to the dealers, we have every advantage in selling our
cattle.
947. You are quite free to sell them where you like-Yes.
948. Have you any ponies in Burra?-Yes; a few of the men have
some.
949. And you have also and poultry?-Yes.
950. You can dispose of them as you please?-Yes.
951. Is there any shop on the island?-No.
952. You have to go over to Scalloway or to Lerwick for all your
goods?-Yes. We don't have liberty to have any shop on the
islands.
953. Are Messrs. Hay sometimes largely in advance [Page 20] to
the people on the island after a bad season?-Yes; I believe they
are largely in advance in some seasons.
954. Then they will trust you for a year or two until a good season
comes, and the balance is then paid off?-Yes; most commonly
they do that.
955. You would not have had that advantage if you were all free to
fish for anybody you liked?-We believe that, if we had our
freedom, we would not require to have that advantage. We believe
we would be so clear that we would be independent. Neither have
we the advantage of having a shop there, and keeping the penny
among ourselves.
956. Do you think the goods you get at Messrs. Hay's shop are
expensive as compared with the prices you would pay for them
elsewhere?-I never thought that, and I never thought them worse
than we could get elsewhere.
957. But as to the price, do you think they charge more for their
goods than other people?-No; I have nothing to say against that.
958. Or as to the quality?-Both as to the quality and the price I
was always satisfied as I would have been with any other body's.
959. You don't suppose they charge a higher price in consequence
of the long credit they give?-No.
960. You get your goods from January onwards, and they are not
settled for until the following January?-That is so.
961. But then there is credit on both sides; so that I suppose there
need be no higher price on that account?-That is the case, so far
as I am aware.
962. Is there anything else you wish to say?-You have not asked
what may be the difference on a hundredweight of fish, if we had
the advantage of selling them for ourselves, as against what we get
for them under the present system. I believe the difference would
be between 2s. and 3s. per cwt.
963. Do you think your profit would be 2s. or 3s. more per cwt. if
the fish was sold by you?-Yes; if we were free agents to act for
ourselves.
964. But in the case of a man who was curing on a large scale, has
he not an advantage in the way of curing cheaper than a single
fisherman would have?-We cannot think he would. We know
what we could, cure them for ourselves: that is a matter within our
own knowledge. The merchants tell us they cure, at a dearer rate,
but we cannot enter into their accounts. If it costs them so much
to cure the fish, then they must cure them much dearer than we
know they could be cured for by ourselves.
965. Is it from your experience in Havera, as compared with your
experience in Burra, that you believe you would be 2s. or 3s. per
cwt. better off by curing the fish for yourselves?-That is from my
experience in Havera, and also from my experience in Burra.
966. But you have had no experience of selling your own fish
cured for at least thirteen years?-Not cured; but I have had a little
experience in half-cured fish since that time.
967. Have you sold fish half-cured?-Yes; I have sold a little this
year.
968. Were these small fish?-Yes.
969. Did you make more of them than you would have done by
delivering them to the merchant?-I did.
970. Was any objection taken by Messrs. Hay to your selling the
fish in that way?-I must tell the truth: we did smuggle a few. We
would not like them to know of it, but I suppose they will know of
it by and by.
971. Is there much smuggling carried on in that way among the
fishermen?-I believe it is done on a very small scale.
972. But the restrictions you are under do induce you to smuggle
occasionally, in order to get a larger price?-Yes; and on some
occasions, in order to get the ready money.
973. Do you not always get ready money for smuggled fish?-We
can get it now.
974. From people in Scalloway?-Yes; but if had our liberty like
Englishmen, we would have no need to smuggle.
975. Is there anything more you want to say about the matters
referred to in your letter?-I think I have said all I wish to say,
only that our errand in here has been undertaken under the
protection of you, as a commissioner from Her Majesty's
Government, who can give us our liberty; and if it had not been on
that account we would not have come.
Lerwick, January 2, 1872, PETER SMITH, examined.
976. You are a fisherman in Burra?-Yes.
977. You hold some land in that island under Messrs Hay, and you
fish for them in the home fishing?-Yes.
978. Do you go to the Faroe fishing also?-No; I never went there.
979. You have been present during the examination of Walter
Williamson?-Yes.
980. Do you concur generally in what you have heard him say?-
Yes.
981. You have been engaged in the herring fishery also?-Yes.
982. And you were one of the parties who signed memorial to the
trustee on the estate of Scalloway some years ago?-Yes.
983. Can you remember how long it is since that petition was got
up?-I cannot exactly say, but think it was eight years ago.
984. Was it shortly after you were asked to sign the obligation
which Williamson mentioned?-Yes.
985. Do you remember the grievances that were set forth in the
memorial?-Were they the same things that you are complaining
of now, or was there anything additional?-There was nothing
additional.
986. Was there any prohibition at that time to sell tea to your
neighbours?-There was very little of it sold.
987. But was it forbidden to sell tea to your neighbours?-Yes.
988. Is that forbidden now?-We have never tried it since.
989. Who forbade it?-Messrs. Hay.
990. Why?-Because they won't allow that to be done on the
island.
991. What was their reason for that? Did you want to sell tea?-
We did not want to sell tea, except that we were locked up in the
island, and we could not get to Scalloway every day. If a storm
came on and lasted for perhaps eight days, we could not get to the
shop; and some parties might have had a pound or half a pound of
tea in small parcels, and they would supply it to any of their
neighbours who happened be run out.
992. How did any of the people happen have much tea by them?-
They were working among the fish for Messrs. Hay, and they took
the tea out of their store.
993. Why did they take it? Did they not want it?-They
sometimes required a few pennies. The merchants at that time
would give nothing but truck, and the people took the tea, and sold
it to their neighbours in order to get a few pence.
994. How do you know that was forbidden? Was there any order
issued in writing, or otherwise, stating that people should not sell
tea to their neighbours?-It was ordered by word of mouth, and it
was also stated by the obligation which we had to sign in Messrs.
Hay's office.
995. Did you sign that document?-Yes.
996. So that, you are now under a written obligation not to sell
tea?-Yes; a written obligation.
997. Have you heard anything of late years about that prohibition
against selling tea?-No.
998. Is it common for a neighbour who has got more tea than he
wants, to sell it to another?-No they don't do it now.
[Page 21]
999. Why?-I don't know, except just that they are afraid.
1000. Then, if you want tea or any other goods, must go direct to
the store at Scalloway for them?-Yes, if we have not got money.
If we had money, then we could go to any store we like, and buy
what we want.
1001. Have the Burra people any complaints to make with regard
to oysters?-I don't deal in them.
1002. You were engaged in the herring fishery. Was there any
special complaint made in the memorial, or have you any special
complaint to make just now, as to that fishery?-The herring
fishery is carried on under the same restrictions as the ling,
1003. You are bound to hand over the fish to Messrs. Hay, and
they are entered into the account the same as the others?-Yes.
1004. When you prepared that petition some years ago, did you
land your herring on the island, or were they handed in to some
vessel?-There were two or three years about that time when a
vessel came to Hamnavoe, and we measured them on board of her.
When she was full, we had to measure them on shore.
1005. Who sent that vessel?-It was a man who came with a
vessel from Hamburg for herrings, and he bought them from
Messrs. Hay.
1006. Did the man pay you for the fish?-No; we had nothing to
do with him, so far as the paying was concerned.
1007. Was it one of the grievances set forth in the petition, that
you were paid in goods for these herrings, while the Wick
fishermen got a larger price in cash?-I don't remember about
that.
1008. You say you signed the obligation about eight years ago.
Have you ever endeavoured or wished to break through it and to
obtain your liberty?-No.
1009. You have never attempted that?-No.
1010. Does that obligation bind your family as well as yourself?-
Yes, if they like to do it.
1011. But in the obligation itself did you become bound that your
sons as well as yourself should fish for Messrs. Hay?-Yes.
1012. Have had to pay liberty money for any of your sons?-Yes; I
had to pay it for one of my sons-Robert Smith. He was two years
away. One year he was with Mr. Harrison, and the year following
he was with Mr. Garriock, and I paid liberty money in these years
to Messrs. Hay on his account.
1013. How long ago was that?-I think it was three years ago.
1014. Then the obligation to fish applied to the Faroe fishing as
well as to the home fishing?-Yes; to the whole fishings.
1015. Have you ever had to pay liberty money for your sons
leaving the home fishing and going to some other employment?-
No; they never followed the home fishing. They would not go to
it.
1016. Then, if a man does not choose to go to the home fishing at
all, he is free?-Yes.
1017. But if a man does go to the home fishing he is to fish for the
landlord?-Yes, if he be a tenant.
1018. But he need not fish unless he likes?-No; it is only if he
does fish, and if he is a person holding land, that he must fish for
Messrs. Hay.
1019. Or if he is the son of a landholder, and living in his father's
house?-Yes.
1020. I believe the liberty money amounts to 20s.?-Yes.
1021. When is it paid?-When we settle.
1022. Is it deducted from the amount due?-Yes.
1023. Do you know of any cases where that liberty money has
been paid back by Messrs, Hay?-Yes.
1024. Was it paid back to you?-Yes; it was paid back to me for
my son.
1025. Then the money you mentioned just now as having been
paid by you for your son was paid back to you?-Yes; it was paid
back to me afterwards.
1026. How long afterwards?-I think about a year and a half.
1027. Did you ask for it to be paid back?-Yes; I asked it over and
over again before I got it. I think I asked for it two or three times,
if I remember right.
1028. Did they give it back to you as a favour?-Yes.
1029. Was the amount of liberty money fixed in the obligation
which you signed?-Yes.
1030. Did you get a copy of that obligation?-No.
1031. Have you been spoken to about that obligation since you
signed it, and told that it was in force?-Never, except when they
charged liberty money. I objected to pay it; and their answer was,
that I had signed an obligation to pay it, and therefore that I was
obliged to do so.
1032. Do you know any one else who has paid liberty money
within the last year or two?-Yes; Andrew Laurenson paid it for
his brother.
1033. Is Laurenson here?-No.
1034. Why did he have to pay it for his brother?-Because I think
the father was not able, and Andrew had just to pay it.
1035. Were both the Laurensons living with their father?-No,
Andrew was not living with him; he was married, and had gone
away. But Robert was living with his father; and Andrew paid the
money for the brother, because his father could not.
1036. Has there been any other case?-Yes; Peter Henry paid
liberty money for himself about three years ago.
1037. Was Laurenson's money paid back?-Yes.
1038. After he had asked it?-I don't know if he asked it, but I
know that it was paid back.
1039. Was Henry's paid back?-I don't know.
1040. Did these cases all occur about the same year?-Yes, all
about the same time.
1041. Is it the case that at time you had several bad fishing
seasons?-Yes.
1042. And is it the case that at that time Messrs. Hay were largely
in advance to the fishermen in Burra?-Yes; for some years they
were largely in advance.
1043. Did they want to get the young men to go to the Faroe
fishing in order to get their parents out of debt: did they assign that
as a reason for charging liberty money?-Yes, sometimes they did.
1044. Did they tell you, or did you understand, that these fines
were required in order to induce the young men to go to the Faroe
fishing, and to pay off the debt due by their parents?-Yes, I
understood that.
1045. Were you told that by Messrs. Hay at the time?-Yes.
1046. Are these the only cases in which such fines have been
exacted, within your knowledge?-Yes.
1047. Have all the landholders since that time fished for Messrs.
Hay, to your knowledge?-Yes; they have all fished for them at
the home fishing.
1048. And at the Faroe fishing too?-There are very few of the
landholders who go to the Faroe fishing.
1049. Are there many men in Burra who go to the Faroe fishing?-
Yes, a considerable number.
1050. But these are the younger men?-Yes; generally they are.
1051. And they are not bound in any way?-No, are not now.
1052. Do they generally ship with the Messrs. Hay?-Some of
them do, and some do not. It is not general thing with them to do
so.
1053. They can do as they like?-Yes.
1054. Can your sons do as they like in that matter, and ship with
any person they please?-Yes.
1055. Do they go to the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
1056. And you are not asked to pay liberty money for them
now?-No.
1057. Is that because Messrs. Hay have ceased to require payment
of liberty money?-Yes; they thought the thing was not legal, and
they have given it up.
1058. Are your sons living in your house still?-One of them is,
but the other one is married, and is away from me.
1059. And the one who is living with you goes to the Faroe
fishing?-Yes.
1060. Have you ever cured fish for yourself?-No.
1061. Then you don't know from your own experience, [Page 22]
whether you would have a larger profit if you did cure them on
your own account?-No; not from my own experience.
1062. Except when you signed the document you have mentioned,
was there any occasion on which you were told by any of the firm
of Hay & Co. that you were bound to fish for them only?-I don't
remember any other time.
Lerwick, January 2, 1872, THOMAS CHRISTIE, examined.
1063. You are a fisherman in Burra, and a tenant under Messrs.
Hay?-Yes.
1064. You have been present during the examination of the two
preceding witnesses?-Yes.
1065. Do you concur with them as to the most of the facts which
they have stated?-Yes.
1066. Did you sign the obligation which has been spoken to?-I
signed it once, about eight years ago.
1067. Did you do so willingly, or did you refuse first?-I did so
willingly.
1068. Had you not received warning to leave your ground first?-
No, I don't think it.
1069. Were you ever told that you would have to leave your
ground if you did not sign it?-Yes; I suppose I was.
1070. Have you complied ever since with that obligation to fish for
Hay & Co.?-Yes.
1071. You did not try to break it in any way?-No.
1072. Have you ever had to pay liberty money for yourself or any
of your children?-No.
1073. Have you cured fish for yourself?-No.
1074. Is it your opinion, as well as that of the other witnesses, that
you would make a larger profit if you cured your own fish?-I
think we would.
1075. Can you give me any reason for supposing that?-No; no
particular reason, because I never cured them.
1076. But you know that is the general belief?-Yes.
1077. Have you any knitters in your family?-Yes.
1078. The letter you have signed says that they are invariably paid
in goods, both for the goods they sell, and also for their wages
when engaged to knit for the hosiery dealers: is that so?-Yes.
1079. Have you ever sold any articles for your daughters?-Yes.
1080. Do you sometimes take the goods they knit the shops and
sell them for them?-Yes.
1081. Where have you taken them to?-To Linklater.
1082. Do you keep an account with him?-No.
1083. You just take the article in and sell it?-Yes, and get what
they want for it.
1084. Do your daughters knit with their own wool?-No, they knit
with wool supplied by Mr. Linklater.
1085. Is it through you that the dealing generally takes place?-
No; not through me.
1086. Your daughters generally manage it themselves?-Yes.
1087. But you have brought in articles which they have knitted?-
Yes; on one or two occasions.
1088. On these occasions what took place?-I was just ordered to
get some things from the shop, and I got them.
1089. Did you ever ask for money?-No, they never expected to
get money, they never asked for it.
1090. You were told the articles that you were to bring home, and
the value that was to be put upon the shawls?-Yes.
1091. Did you not leave the fixing of the price to the merchant?-
He knew the price himself. It was marked down in the book, what
I brought in for them was added to the account.
1092. Do your daughters have a book?-No; but the merchant
enters these things in his own book.
1093. Then they have an account with Mr. Linklater-which is
kept in his book?-Yes.
1094. What is the name of your daughter?-Elizabeth Christie.
1095. Is the account in Mr. Linklater's book kept in her name?-
Yes.
1096. You say that you buy your goods until the end of the year
from your landlord's shop: is it from the shop at Scalloway or in
Lerwick that you generally buy?-I buy from both places.
1097. Is there an account in your name in both shops?-Yes; I can
go to any place I like.
1098. And you get the same class of goods at both?-I don't think
there is much difference.
1099. Do you get every kind of goods at both shops?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 2, 1872, CHARLES SINCLAIR, examined.
1100. You are a fisherman in Burra?-Yes.
1101. Do you hold any land there?-No, I have only a room, and
pay rent for it, in an old mansion-house on the island.
1102. To whom do you pay rent?-To Messrs. Hay.
1103. How do you make your living?-By fishing, and sometimes
by going as master of a small coasting vessel.
1104. Does that vessel belong to you?-No; I sometimes get
employment from the owners in Lerwick,-from Mr. Leask, or
Messrs. Hay, or others.
1105. You have not a permanent employment as master?-No, but
I am competent for taking charge of a vessel at times.
1106. Is that a vessel employed in the fishing trade?-Yes, and
sometimes in the coasting trade, taking cured fish to any port in
England or Scotland.
1107. You have been present during the examination of the
previous witnesses during the day?-Yes.
1108. Do you concur generally in what they have stated?-So far
as I can remember it, I do.
1109. Is there anything additional you want to say?-Yes. Our
wishes are to have our liberty to fish for whoever we please, and to
make the best we can of our fish.
1110. But you are not bound in any way?-I am bound to fish for
Messrs. Hay in the long-line and herring fishing in the island.
1111. Did you sign any obligation-to fish for Messrs. Hay only?-
No.
1112. Then in what way are you bound?-By our father signing an
obligation.
1113. Are you the son of a Burra man?-Yes.
1114. Did your father sign the obligation eight years ago?-Yes.
1115. What reason have you to suppose that binds you to fish?-
My father told me when he came home, that neither he nor his
sons were to be allowed to fish to any other men than Messrs. Hay.
1116. Is it eight years since he told you that-Yes.
1117. Is your father alive?-Yes, he is here. His name is John
Sinclair.
1118. Have you attempted or wished to fish for any other than
Messrs. Hay?-Yes; in the Faroe fishing, but nowhere else.
1119. Was there any objection taken to your doing so?-No;
because at the time when I broke off from Messrs. Hay they could
not suit me with a vessel. I was competent to take charge of a
vessel, and they had none to give me, and for that reason they let
me off.
1120. Do you go in for the home fishing?-Sometimes.
1121. Have you fished for any other than Messrs. Hay in that
fishing?-No, not in the long-line fishing.
1122. Have you proposed to do so?-No.
1123. Then you have never been interfered with in any way
yourself?-No, not further than that. Occasionally I have had to
fish a little for them when I was not engaged at anything else.
[Page 23]
1124. How had you to fish to them?-To support myself.
1125. But if you had chosen, you might have engaged with any
other merchant than Messrs. Hay?-No, not for the home fishing.
1126. Why do you say that?-Because we were made to
understand that we would not be allowed to do so.
1127. You say that your only reason for understanding that, was
what your father had told you. What would have been the result to
you if you had done it?-The result would have been, that my
father would have been turned out on my account.
1128. Is that what you were afraid of?-Yes.
1129. And is that the reason why you never tried to get engaged
with any other merchant?-Yes.
1130. Had you ever to pay liberty money?-No.
1131. Had your father ever to pay liberty money for you or any of
his sons?-I believe he had to pay for one who died.
1132. Do you know that yourself?-I am confident of it, from
having heard about it.
1133. Was that when you were young?-Yes.
1134. But that was a good many years ago?-Yes. I cannot
remember the time.
1135. Is that all you wish to say?-I remember in my early years,
when I was a young fellow, and commenced to fish along with my
father, we went chiefly to the herring fishing, and we had to catch
herring for Messrs. Hay at a very low price. We had a certain
allowance of meal, which I suppose would amount to about
twenty-four pounds for seven or eight days; and it was hardly fit to
sustain a family of about eight people. My father had to find boats
and nets with which to proceed to the fishing, and that put him into
debt; and about four years ago I and my brothers had to come good
for that debt.
1136. Was that an old debt which your father had contracted?-It
was a debt accumulated chiefly in the herring fishing.
1137. When was it begun to be incurred?-About fifteen or
sixteen years ago.
1138. Had the debt increased, or did it merely stand over?-It was
not regular; it sometimes rose and sometimes fell.
1139. But your father was constantly in debt up to four years
ago?-Yes, so far as I can remember.
1140. Was that debt made out by the annual accountings which we
have heard about to-day? Was it a debt in the books of Messrs.
Hay for provisions supplied at the store?-Yes, and for fishing
materials.
1141. Was it for a boat also?-It was chiefly for a new boat and
nets. He purchased a new boat, which put him further down than
ever.
1142. Was it purchased about fifteen or twenty years ago?-No; it
is perhaps ten or twelve years ago.
1143. And you say that about four years ago this debt became so
large that you and your brother had to become bound for it?-Yes.
1144. How did that happen?-Because they wrote out, or
pretended to write out, what might be called a travelling-ticket, or
a warning to remove off the land.
1145. At what term?-Was it at Martinmas?-As far as I recollect,
it was.
1146. Some people have taken special objection to the short
Martinmas warning. Do you concur in that objection?-Yes. It is
only forty days in some cases.
1147. And your father got that warning?-Yes.
1148. How much was he in debt at that time?-Perhaps from £9 to
£12. I and my brother Robert had to pay £6, and I believe that was
the half of it.
1149. Did you sign any document obliging you pay that money?-
No.
1150. Then how did you become bound?-On account of my
father being warned out.
1151. But in what way did you become bound? Did you merely
promise by word of mouth that you would pay it?-Yes; we had to
become good for it.
1152. But you did not sign any agreement?-No; we handed over
the money-the sum of £6.
1153. Was that money which you had earned?-Yes.
1154. Was it due to you in your account with Messrs. Hay?-No; I
had it in my pocket. I had saved it in other employments.
1155. Then you had no difficulty in getting money for your wages
when you wanted it? You were not obliged to take your wages in
goods?-No, not our wages; but we have to take the proceeds of
our fishing in that way, to a certain extent. They will give us
part of that in goods.
1156. Is that the proceeds of the Faroe fishing?-No; of the home
fishing.
1157. In the Faroe fishing, what arrangement do you make about
the payment of your share?-We can get it all in money if we
choose to have it.
1158. You have been at the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
1159. There is no difficulty in that fishing in getting cash at the
end of the season?-No; not at the settling times, which take place
once a year.
1160. How do you do about your supplies for the Faroe fishing?-
We generally apply for them to the merchant we fish for.
1161. And you get a supply from him of provisions, clothing,
fishing material, and everything you require?-Yes.
1162. That is marked down against you in the book, and deducted
from the price of your fish at the end of the season?-Yes.
1163. Is the price for these fish fixed only at settling time?-Yes.
1164. Who does the boat belong to in which you go to the Faroe
fishing?-I have been at that fishing for different owners.
1165. Does the boat always belong to the merchant, or does it
sometimes belong to the men themselves?-No; it always belongs
to the merchant.
1166. But the whole material required for that fishing, except the
boat, belongs to the men?-Yes; and it is purchased by them from
the shipowner. We have to find our hooks and lines and
provisions. That is all we have to find, the owner finds the rest.
1167. Are you a married man?-Yes, I have a wife and two
children.
1168. How are your family supported during your absence at the
Faroe fishing? Where do they get their supplies?-They can get
them in the owner's store if they require them, but, for myself, I do
not require to go there. I can get them at any place I please.
1169. Is it a common thing for the other men who go to the Faroe
fishing, to buy their goods at the owners store?-When they don't
have money to buy them at other places, they go there for them.
1170. But is that a common thing?-I cannot say exactly. I
suppose it is not uncommon.
1171. Does it often happen that a man employed in the Faroe
fishing finds an account against him in the owner's store for
provisions at settling time as large as the amount which he has to
receive for his fishing?-I am not acquainted with that myself.
1172. When you are away at the Faroe fishing, and your family
have occasion for money, is there any difficulty in getting it from
the parties who employ you?-Not if they know we have money to
get. If we have a balance in our favour, they are not against giving
it.
1173. How long are you generally absent at that fishing?-
Sometimes six months, sometimes seven, and sometimes as low as
three months.
1174. Suppose you had been away from home for two or three
months, there would certainly be two or three months take of fish,
if it was a middling season, for which money would be due to
you?-Yes.
1175. Would your wife at home be able to get an advance of
money from the merchant in that case, if she required it for the
support of the family?-Yes.
1176. There is no difficulty made about that?-No.
1177. Is it a common thing in Shetland for a man's wife to get
such advances of money during his absence-Yes, they would get
a small sum of money, but the merchant would prefer them to take
goods.
[Page 24]
1178. If she comes for the money is she ever told to take it in
goods; or is there any understanding that she is to take it in
goods?-I cannot answer that, because I am not acquainted with
what goes on while I am away. I can only speak to what has come
within my own experience.
Lerwick, January 2, 1872, GILBERT GOODLAD, examined.
1179. You are a fisherman in Burra, and you hold land there under
Messrs. Hay?-Yes.
1180. You have been present during the examination of the
previous witnesses?-Yes.
1181. Do you agree with most of what Williamson and Smith have
said?-Yes.
1182. Is it all correct?-Yes; all correct.
1183. You generally go to the Faroe fishing?-I do.
1184. How long may you be absent at that fishing?-It just
depends upon the season: sometimes we may be away for perhaps
four months. We are generally home once in the middle of the
time. We are sometimes we may be away longer than four
months, sometimes not so long ago.
1185. What merchants have you generally engaged with?-I have
engaged with a great many merchants in Shetland.
1186. There has been no objection made to your going with any
merchant you liked?-No.
1187. Messrs. Hay have not objected to that?-No. They might
not have been requiring me when I was going, and therefore I
could go where I liked.
1188. When you go there, how do you arrange for your family to
be supplied during your absence?-The merchant supplies them
during my absence.
1189. What merchant?-Whatever owner I am out for.
1190. When your wife wants supplies, does she go to his shop for
them?-Yes.
1191. If she wants money, does she ask it from him too?-She
may, but sometimes she has been refused it. They are not willing
to give money. If they think we are doing well at the fishing, they
will advance her a little money; but if they think we are not
succeeding well, they will not give it, because they would think
then that we might come to be in their debt.
1192. Is there any communication with the vessels when they are
at the fishing?-Yes. Some of the vessels may go home and come
back again, or an accident may occur on board of one of them, and
she may go home and give an account of how the fishing is going
on. They may also send letters from Faroe, by Denmark, to
Shetland; so that there are several ways of communicating from
there to here.
1193. Who are some of the parties with whom you have shipped
for the Faroe fishing?-I have been out for Mr. Garriock in
Reawick, Mr. Garriock in Lerwick, Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay.
1194. But, whoever you go out for, your wife generally goes to
their shop for her supplies?-She is obliged to go there, if we have
no other means to live on.
1195. Can you tell me one occasion on which she went and was
refused money, or on which you have asked them to give her
money and it has been refused?-I am not quite sure that there has
been any occasion of that kind, because we know that if we are not
fishing well, we need not ask for money.
1196. Have you been told that by any of the shopkeepers?-I have
seen it, and experienced it.
1197. When, and how?-Even during the last season with the
Faroe fishing, there were some of the merchants who would not
make an advance to the people when they required it.
1198. Did they require to get an advance of money?-They might
try to live on through the season without money, and they might
have done it if they could only have got some meal and some
bread to live upon.
1199. Do you mean that the people at the fishing had to do so?-
No; the people whom they left at home got so little that they could
hardly subsist upon it, and they had to try some other means in
order to enable them to live.
1200. What other means had they?-They might have a cow or
two, and make butter, and sell the milk, and buy a little meal with
that.
1201. Do any of the members of your family knit?-I have two
daughters who knit
1202. Do they get money for that knitting?-Not one cent.
1203. Have you sold the hosiery work for them?-I never did.
They always manage these matters for themselves.
1204. Have you ever represented their case to the merchants, and
said that they ought to pay them in cash?-No. It is no use saying
anything of the kind, because the merchants would not give them
money. There is one thing I should like to say with regard to the
Faroe fishing. We come into the town of Lerwick, or any other
port in Shetland where the vessels happen be fitting out, and
commence to fit the vessels so as to have them ready for sea. We
have to go on board, and have only an allowance of one pound of
bread a day for every day we are on board the vessel. We have
nothing else to live on during the time we are fitting out the
vessels, and if we are absent on any account whatever during the
time the vessels are being fitted out they charge 2s., 6d. per day for
that, in order to put a man in our place.
1205. Is not that merely a part of your bargain with the merchants
for whom you engage to fish?-It is part of the bargain, but it is a
very bad part.
1206. If you did not choose to make a bargain of that kind, you
would not be bound to carry it out?-That is true; but the poor
people here cannot strike as they do in England: because they are
so poor, the merchants can just do as they please with them.
1207. Did you sign the obligation eight years ago which has been
spoken to by the previous witnesses?-No.
1208. Do you go in for the home fishing at all?-Yes; I am a
fisherman in the Burra Isles.
1209. Do you consider yourself bound to fish only for Messrs. Hay
in the home fishing?-I do.
1210. Have you ever been told so by Messrs. Hay?-Yes, I have
been told that; and there was a document made out, but I did not
sign it. I have got no notice about the matter since then, because
we knew that we had to carry on the fishing in the same way.
1211. Have you ever paid liberty money?-No, I never had
anybody to pay it for, and I never paid for myself.
1212. Have you ever asked to have the price of your fish fixed at
the beginning of the season?-No.
1213. Is there not a feeling among the men, that that would be a
better mode of dealing than the present?-We durst not go in for
anything of the kind.
1214. Would it not be a better plan in the Faroe fishing?-We
could not do anything of the kind there, because the merchants
don't know what the price of the fish will be until they can be sold.
The market may rise.
1215. You take your chance of the markets there-Yes; whatever
chance the merchant gets, we get too. We run shares with the
merchants in that fishing.
1216. You are not paid at so much per cwt.?-No; we have shares.
One half of the fish that are brought in by the vessel belongs to the
crew, and the other half belongs to the owners.
1217. Then you are not serving for wages there at all?-No; they
give us wages if we have to go to Iceland in the fall of the year but
they give no wages for the summer fishing at Faroe. It is just a
partnership that is made up for the fish that are caught.
1218. Is there anything further you wish to say?-No; I think
everything which we have to say has been pretty well said by the
other men.
1219. Are all the thirteen men here who signed the letter to me
about Burra?-Yes.
1220. Have any of them anything further to say?-[No answer.]
<Adjourned>.
[Page 25]
Lerwick: Wednesday, January 3, 1872.
<Present>-Mr Guthrie.
JOHN LEASK, examined.
1221. You are a fisherman at Channerwick, parish of Sandwick?-
I am.
1222. You came here yesterday for the purpose making some
statement: what was it about?-I wanted to make some statement
about how I have been treated three years back, particularly.
1223. Are you a tenant of land?-Yes.
1224. Are you a yearly tenant?-Yes.
1225. Under whom?-Under Mr. Robert Bruce of Simbister.
1226. Do you pay your rent to him?-We pay our rent to Mr.
William Irvine, the factor.
1227. Is that Mr. Irvine of Hay & Co.?-Yes.
1228. What quantity of land do you hold?-It is rather more than
what are called two merks and about a third.
1229. How much is that in acres?-I don't know. It is a Danish
measurement.
1230. How much rent do you pay for that?-£4, 2s. 10d.
1231. Do you also pay taxes and poor-rates in addition?-No; that
is included in the sum I have mentioned.
1232. What did you come to complain about?-About the way we
were dealt with when we were under tack for seventeen years to
Mr. Robert Mouat. He got bankrupt in the latter end.
1233. How long is it since he became bankrupt?-It was only last
year, and he went away then.
1234. Before that, had he a tack of the whole lands of Mr. Bruce in
that part of the country?-He had Levenwick, Channerwick and
Coningsburgh in tack.
1235. Had you to pay your rent to him?-Yes.
1236. He was what is called a middle-man in Shetland?-Yes; a
middle-man or tacksmaster. The Shetland name for it is
tacksmaster.
1237. You were under tack to him, and you paid the same rent to
him that you have mentioned just now?-Yes, I suppose so, but I
don't remember what rent I paid to him, for I never got my rent
from him.
1238. How do you mean?-Because he was the tacksman, and he
took what rent he liked.
1239. Do you mean to say that you did not pay £4, 2s. 10d. to him
the same as you are doing now?-I paid him more.
1240. When was your rent fixed at £4, 2s. 10d.?-This year.
1241. What was your rent before?-I cannot tell what it was under
Mouat, for I never heard what it was. He never told me what my
rent was; it was just what he liked to take. But after Mouat left,
Mr. Bruce gave us our liberty. We have had our liberty for the
past year, and we go now and pay our rent to the factor, and he has
told us what our rent is.
1242. Did you fish for Mouat when he was there?-I was bound
by the proprietor to do so.
1243. Had you signed any agreement to do that?-I was never
called upon to sign any agreement, but Mouat told me that his
agreement with the proprietor was that I was bound to fish for
him; and he told me that if I did not fish for him, he had power to
warn me out of the place where I lived.
1244. When did he tell you that?-He told me that at the
commencement of the tack, seventeen years ago.
1245. Had you been in the same ground before that time?-Yes.
1246. Who did you hold from at that time?-The tacksman before
Mouat was Mr. Spence, Lerwick. He collected the rents for Mr.
Bruce.
1247. Was he the tacksman or only a factor?-He was a lawyer or
tacksman, taking up the money for Mr. Bruce.
1248. Were you bound then to fish for any particular individual?-
We were always bound.
1249. After Mouat told you that you must fish for him, did you
ever fish for any one else during the whole of these seventeen
years?-No.
1250. Why did you not sell your fish to any one else?-For fear of
being warned off the property where was living; and I had
nowhere else to go to, because I was a poor man.
1251. Is it the home fishing you are now speaking of?-Yes, the
home or ling fishing; but I have been in the whale fishery, and in
the straits fishery, and the Faroe fishery, as well as in the home
fishery.
1252. But you were not at these other fishings for Mouat?-No; I
was at home when I fished for him.
1253. Could you engage with any one you pleased for the whale
fishing or the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
1254. You have no complaint to make about that-No; I could go
to any one I liked, only I was bound under tack to Mouat.
1255. When you fished for Mouat, did you deliver your fish to his
people?-Yes.
1256. Where?-At Levenwick.
1257. Did you deliver them green or dry?-Green.
1258. How were you paid for them?-We were just paid as he
liked to pay us. He gave us just what he chose.
1259. When were you paid for them?-Sometimes in March,
sometimes about the New Year, or just when he chose to make
arrangements for paying us.
1260. Did he pay you then for all the fish of the previous
season?-Yes.
1261. At what time in the season did you begin to fish?-We
began in the spring-generally in the month of May.
1262. And all the fish which you caught from May down to next
winter were paid for in January or February or March?-Yes; or at
any time, just as he chose to make arrangements for paying.
1263. Did you make a bargain about the price at the beginning of
the season?-No.
1264. Did you make your bargain when you delivered your fish to
him?-No.
1265. When did you fix the price which you were to get?-He
fixed the price when he paid us.
1266. Did you ever object to the price which he fixed?-Many a
time.
1267. You made that objection at settling day?-Yes.
1268. What did he when you asked for a larger price?-He told us
that we should have no more, and that we were in duty bound to
fish for him.
1269. Had Mouat a shop?-Yes; his shop was at the Moul of
Channerwick, close to my house.
1270. Are there many fishermen living close by there?-There are
a good many, and almost all men are fishermen.
1271. Do they live near that shop?-Yes.
1272. How many houses may be there, or about that
neighbourhood?-I think there are about nineteen of them close
together.
1273. Are there many more houses at a little distance?-There are
no more at that particular place, but in the town of Levenwick,
about a mile to the south of the Moul, there are more.
1274. Is there another shop there?-No.
1275. Do the Levenwick people come to the Channerwick shop?-
Yes.
1276. What did you get in Mouat's shop?-We got the goods he
pleased to give us.
1277. Did you get the goods you wanted?-No; we did not get the
goods we wanted. We could just get the goods he had.
1278. What did you get?-We sometimes got a [Page 26] little tea
and cotton and anything we asked for that was there. If it was
there for us to get it was very well; but if it was not there, we had
to walk home without, and we could get no money to buy it with.
1279. How could you get no money?-Because he would not give
it to us on any consideration at all.
1280. Did you often ask for?-Every year and every time.
1281. What do you mean by every time?-Every time we came to
that store when we thought his goods were not a bargain for us to
take we asked for some money to go somewhere else and get a
better bargain; but of course we were denied it. We could get
none.
1282. Did you never get an advance of money from the time the
fishing began, until settling time?-No.
1283. Did you ever get any money from Mouat during the whole
seventeen years you fished for him?-No.
1284. Did you not get money if there was, a balance over at
settling time?-No.
1285. Do you swear that?-Yes, I do.
1286. Supposing that at the time of settling there was a balance
due to you after paying your account at the shop and your rent did
you not get, that in money?-No. I had to take it in goods or else
go without.
1287. Were you told that you must take it in goods?-Yes; I could
get no money.
1288. Did you generally take goods there and then or did you get
them afterwards just as you wanted them?-Sometimes I got them
as I wanted them and at other times I might take a little goods
expecting that I would perhaps get a shilling of money along with
them as I was in necessity for it; but I could not get any.
1289. Did you expect that you might get a shilling for the
goods?-As I had a balance due I expected that I might get a
shilling in money; and I did not take all the goods at one time but I
took a little now when I required them, and a little the next time;
and always when I came to the store I asked if I could not get a
shilling in money because goods could not serve me every time.
1290. Did you sell the goods which you got from the shop in order
to raise a little money?-Sometimes.
1291. Did you sell them to your neighbours?-I could not sell
them to my neighbours, because they were in the same state as I
was myself.
1292. Where did you sell them?-Sometimes we would take a
little and fall in with a boy or a laddie, who would buy a bit of
cloth from us, or the like of that, at a reduced price and thus help
us to get a few shillings.
1293. To what boys or lads did you sell these goods?-Just to any
lad that would buy them. Perhaps my own lad would be going
elsewhere, such as to the sea, where he would be paid by a fee;
and sometimes I would get a bit of goods and give it to my boy,
and he would pay me for it with a few shillings out of his fee and
that would serve my ends for the time.
1294. Had you anything to sell off your farm?-Yes.
1295. You sold a beast now and then?-Yes; but Mouat took the
whole of them.
1296. Did he buy your beasts too?-Yes.
1297. Did you not have liberty to sell them to other people?-No,
we had no liberty at all; because he said we were under the same
obligation with regard to beasts and eggs and all the produce of
our farms as we were under with regard to the fish, and therefore,
if he got the one, he compelled us to give him the other too.
1298. When did he tell you that about the beasts and the eggs?-
He told us about it in the same year that he took the tack.
1299. Did you ever try to sell them to another?-Yes, I tried that
sometimes.
1300. To whom did you try to sell them?-To any one who came
round asking for such things; but I knew that if I did such a thing,
and Mouat came to know about it, I must be prepared to take to
my heels and fly.
1301. Did you ever actually sell any of the produce of your farm
to another than Mouat?-I never sold any, except one little horse;
and I sold it when I was in starvation for meal. That was towards
the end of Mouat's tack.
1302. How long ago was it?-I think it is two years past.
1303. Who did you sell it to?-I sold it to a man in the
neighbourhood of Quarff.
1304. What was his name?-Andrew Jamieson, he lives at Quarff
now.
1305. What did you get for it?-I got £2; it was a small beast
1306. Did Mouat know that you had sold that beast to
Jamieson?-Yes, and as soon as he heard about it he sent for me,
and told me what he was determined to do, and that I might
prepare myself for going.
1307. How long was that before he failed?-I think I only paid
one year after that.
1308. Do you mean that there was only one settlement with him
after that?-Yes.
1309. When you were making your settlements, I suppose it was
the previous Whitsunday and Martinmas rents that you settled for
at each?-Yes.
1310. How long would it be before the settlement that you sold the
horse?-I sold it after the settlement for the year. Mouat knew
that I had a pony to sell and he wanted me to give it to him. I said
that I would give him the pony as he told me I was bound to do it
but he must bring me some meal, because it was a very bad
season, and I could not sow down my ground. He would not bring
me any meal and therefore I resolved that, whatever might happen
to me whether I should be put out or not, I would sell my animal
and procure a living for my house; and I did so.
1311. At what time of the year did you sell it?-In March.
1312. That would be shortly after the settlement?-Yes.
1313. How long was it after that when Mouat told you that you
must leave?-Just about eight days-as soon as he heard it.
1314. But he did not turn you off?-No.
1315. Could he not have turned you off at the following
Whitsunday term?-Yes; he could have turned me off then.
1316. But he did not do it?-No; because I went to the proprietor,
Mr. Bruce, and told him what I had done, and what Mouat was
going to do to me. I don't know what took place between Mr.
Bruce and Mouat about that, but I did not get my warning?
1317. What did Mr. Bruce say to you about it when you saw
him?-He said very little. I went to him, and also to the factor,
Mr. Irvine, and told him about it. I got no satisfaction at the time,
and therefore I expected I would be turned off; but in the end I was
not put off the ground.
1318. That would be in the spring of 1870?-Yes.
1319. Have you paid any rent to Mr. Irvine or to Mr Bruce this
year?-Yes; I paid my rent about six weeks ago.
1320. To whom do you deliver your fish now?-To any one I
choose.
1321. Who did you fish for last season?-For Mr. Robertson.
1322. Where do you get your goods now?-I can get them from
Mr. Robertson. He bought Mouat's store in Channerwick.
1323. Do you still get your goods there?-Yes.
1324. Are you bound to get them there?-We are not bound
particularly, because if we ask Mr. Robertson for a few shillings of
money during the time we are fishing for him, we will get them.
1325. Have you got money from him since he took that store?-
Yes; I got my rent from him this year.
1326. You mean, that you got money from him to pay your rent?-
Yes.
1327. Can you mention the name of any person who [Page 27]
was turned away for selling his fish or the produce of his farm to
another merchant than during the seventeen years he held the
tack?-I cannot mention any one particularly, except an old man
who was turned off his farm; but that was a good while ago. His
name was Henry Sinclair, in Levenwick. That occurred about the
beginning of Mouat's tack.
1328. What was he turned out for?-For an 'outfall' about some
fishing.
1329. What had he done with his fish?-It was his son that the
thing occurred with.
1330. What had his son done?-His son got into some sort of
dispute with Mouat about fishing, I can not tell what the cause of it
was exactly; but Mouat gave him warning, and sent him off the
property that he was staying on. Sinclair took a little bit of
scattald outside of the premises, and built a house on it, and he is
living there in a very mean condition.
1331. Did the other people in the neighbourhood take that case as
a warning?-Yes.
1332. It frightened them, did it?-Yes; Shetland people are of that
nature, to be frightened by such things-very much to their hurt.
1333. Do you know of any other person who was turned off in the
same way?-No, I don't remember of any other person being
turned off; because Mouat had no occasion to turn them off. They
did not transgress his law.
1334. Do you know of any other who was threatened to be turned
off?-Every one of us was threatened, the next man was
threatened, and we were all threatened; so that we were frightened.
1335. Do you know of any person who sold his fish or his beasts or
eggs to another than Mouat?-Towards the end of his tack, in the
very last fishing when I fished for him, my family and I were in a
state of starvation for want of meal. I have seen me out at sea
under him for two days and part of a third, on two pounds of meal;
and I saw that I must make some effort for a living, Accordingly I
went to another store close by and gave them some of the fish I
had caught, and got some meal from them. If Mouat's tack had
continued longer, I have no doubt I would have been punished for
that; but as it was nearly broken, he did not have it in his power to
do me any hurt.
1336. Did Mouat speak to you about that?-Yes. There came a
letter from him to the people in the neighbourhood, because some
of them did take their liberty and go away.
1337. Was that in the last year of his tack?-Yes.
1338. What kind of letters were these?-They were letters from
Mouat telling them not to prepare their turf or anything to keep
them in their farms, because they had their warning to go. I got a
letter as well as the rest.
1339. Did it refer to the fish that you had sold to the other
merchant?-Yes.
1340. Have you got that letter?-I don't know. I don't know what
became of it. I think I burnt it; but there ought to be letters in the
neighbourhood that came from Mouat at that time.
1341. You said you did not get all the goods you wanted at
Mouat's shop. What were the goods you asked for and could not
get?-I generally asked for little tea.
1342. Could you not get that?-Yes, I always got that, and I could
get a bit of cotton or anything out of the store that I wanted.
1343. Did you get the tackle you wanted for your fishing from
him?-Yes.
1344. And clothes for your family?-I could get clothes for my
family if I asked for them. Sometimes I did get a little clothing
from him.
1345. Was it principally meal and tea that you got from Mouat?-
Yes; and if his meal had been grain, it would have been good
enough; but as it was, it was not fit for human food.
1346. You mean that it was not of good quality?-It was not; and
we paid at the dearest rate for it.
1347. How do you know that?-Because we heard it from the
storeman who sold it to us. Mouat had a storeman in the shop; and
when we got the meal from him, he told us what the price of it
was.
1348. Had you a pass-book?-We sometimes had a pass-book, but
it was not always taken there; and besides, the storeman was not
very willing to be bothered with it.
1349. Did you ever ask the price of meal and tea in Lerwick?-
Yes.
1350. Did you ever buy these articles in Lerwick when you
happened to have some money?-Yes, sometimes when I had any
money I did so; but it was very little money that ever I had,
because where could we get it, when we could get no money at all
for our fishing?
1351. Have you bought these articles in Lerwick within the last
two or three years?-Yes.
1352. Did you find the Lerwick meal better and cheaper than what
you got from Mouat?-Yes; the Lerwick meal was grain, but
Mouat's meal was nothing but the refuse of the worst that was
given to us poor fishing slaves.
1353. Then the complaint you have to make is only about what is
past?-Yes; about how I was treated during the seventeen years I
was under Mouat. I have nothing to say against Mr. Robert Bruce,
or against Mr. Robertson either, with regard to our present
condition.
1354. You are quite content with your way of dealing at
present?-Yes, I have nothing to say against that, but I am
frightened for the future.
1355. Have you a boat of your own?-No.
1356. How do you do for a boat?-I generally arrange with some
fish-curer, and he procures me a boat, and takes a hire for it for the
season.
1357. How much is the hire?-The hire, as a general rule, has
been £2 for three months, or £3, 10s. for the whole season.
1358. Is that the way you did with Mr. Robertson last year?-Yes.
1359. You got goods at his store?-Yes.
1360. As many goods as you wanted during the fishing season?-
Yes.
1361. And a little money when you asked for it?-Yes.
1362. How much money would you get at a time from him?-If I
asked Mr. Robertson for 5s. or 2s. or 6s., I would get it, according
as I asked for it.
1363. If you asked for the whole of your earnings in money, and
took no goods out of Mr. Robertson's store, is it likely that you
would get the money, so that you could go elsewhere and buy your
goods?-I could not say anything about that, because I did not ask
it.
1364. You don't wish to go anywhere else?-No; I have not tried
that.
1365. Do you think the quality of Mr. Robertson's goods is better
than Mouat's?-Oh, Mouat's was nothing at all.
1366. Have you any daughters in your family who knit?-I have
two.
1367. Do they knit their own worsted?-Yes; they make worsted
for themselves from the wool of our own sheep.
1368. Do they go into Lerwick to sell the articles they have
made?-They do.
1369. To whom do they sell them?-To anybody; they do not knit
for a merchant. They go to any merchant they choose and sell
their shawls, because the worsted with which they are made is
their own. If they go into one store with the shawl, and the price is
not suitable, they go into the next one.
1370. How are they paid for their shawls?-They are paid in goods
at any store where they can sell them.
1371. Do they ever ask for money?-They have asked for it often,
but they have never got it; and therefore they say there is no use
asking for it, because they know they won't get it.
1372. Are you satisfied with the value of the goods they get in
exchange for their shawls?-Sometimes, but not always.
Sometimes the goods which they get [Page 28] in exchange are
not worth the value put upon them. Sometimes they get cottons
for 10d. which are not worth above 8d.
1373. How do you know that?-Because I see the quality of them.
1374. Have they told you the price which the merchant has
charged for them?-Yes; and sometimes when my daughters have
knitted a shawl, and it is ready to go to the dresser, there may be
no money in the house to pay for the dressing of it, and it has to be
paid in money. I have known my daughters detained in that way
for some days, until I went to a neighbour and borrowed a shilling
to pay for the dressing of the shawl, or until I could sell something
off the farm; and then, when the shawl was dressed, they went to
the merchant with it and sold it to him for goods, according to the
custom.
1375. Can your daughters not dress the shawls themselves?-No;
they are shawl-makers, but not shawl-dressers. Their dresser is
Mrs. Arcus, at the Docks.
1376. Is she the only dresser here?-No; there are other dressers
than her, but she is the only one that my daughters go to.
1377. Would she not give them credit for the dressing?-No.
1378. She always requires ready money for that?-Yes; she might
give credit to a girl living in the town, but I live sixteen miles from
Lerwick, and she would not give credit to a party living at that
distance.
1379. How long have your daughters knitted?-A long time now.
There is one of them twenty-seven years of age, and she has
knitted since she was about eighteen.
1380. Have you ever seen your daughters bring home money for
their knitting?-No; I never saw a shilling come into our house in
my life which had been got for a shawl. I have paid out several
shillings for the dressing of the shawls but I never saw any money
given in for them.
1381. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, GAVIN COLVIN, examined.
1382. Are you a fisherman?-Yes.
1383. Where?-In Levenwick, Sandwick parish.
1384. Was the ground there held in tack by Robert Mouat at one
time?-Yes.
1385. How long have you been there?-I have been there all my
life.
1386. What was your rent when you held your land under
Mouat?-It was £4, excluding poor-rates and road money.
1387. That was what you paid to Mouat?-Yes.
1388. Then you knew what your rent was?-Yes. Of course he
told us what our rent was.
1389. And it was accounted for at the settlement?-Yes. At the
settlement he summed up our accounts, and told us we were due
so much-so much for rent and so much for goods.
1390. Had you a pass-book?-No. He did not approve of
pass-books.
1391. Did you take a note yourself of the goods you got, or did you
just trust to the people at the store?-I trusted to the people at the
store,-to his storekeeper.
1392. Have you been present during the examination of John
Leask?-Yes.
1393. You have heard all that he said about the way of dealing,
and about the store, and the quality of the goods?-Yes.
1394. Do you agree with all that he said?-Yes, I agree more
particularly with what he said about the quality of the goods. The
goods were very inferior at Mouat's store.
1395. You also agree with him in his description of the way of
dealing with Mouat?-Yes.
1396. Do you also say that you were compelled to sell all your fish
to him?-Yes. All our earnings, whether by sea or land, were in
duty bound to his store. That was stated to us every year at the
settlement.
1397. Was that stated to you by Mouat?-Yes. We were told that
we were in duty bound to bring every iota of our produce, whether
by sea or land, to his store.
1398. Did you ever get any letter threatening you for selling your
fish or your goods to another than Mouat?-I never did, I got no
letter, because I never got far forward as to require that treatment.
1399. You never got warning to go away?-No, but I was often
told that I would get warning if I persisted in such things.
1400. Do you know of any of your neighbours having got such
letters?-No; not in my neighbourhood.
1401. Is there anything you wish to add to the statement made by
John Leask?-Nothing.
1402. Who were you fishing for last year?-For Mr. Robertson.
1403. Did you get goods at his store?-Yes.
1404. They were of better quality than those you got from
Mouat?-Certainly they were.
1405. Do you get all the money you ask for?-I get what goods I
require, and if I ask for money I will get it. At the settlement, if
there is anything due to me I will get it; and if I don't have money
for my rent, he will help me with it.
1406. But if you want all your balance in money, will you get it?-
Yes. I got it last time. We are quite satisfied with Mr. Robertson
according to the custom of the country.
1407. But are you satisfied with the custom of the country?-No; I
don't agree with it.
1408. What do you want to be changed?-I am not prepared to say
in the meantime.
1409. Do you want the price of your fish fixed in advance?-We
would require that, I think, for some encouragement to us.
1410. Could you not get it fixed then, if you asked for it?-We
have asked for it, but we have never got it yet.
1411. Who did you ask it from?-From the dealers we were
fishing to, all along.
1412. But you have fished for no dealers except Mouat and
Robertson?-No.
1413. Have you asked them to fix the price before?-Yes.
1414. Did they refuse your request?-Yes. They refused to state a
price then, and said they would give the currency of the country at
the end of the season.
1415. Have you asked them to pay for the fish as they were
delivered?-No; I never asked them for that.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, CATHERINE PETRIE, examined.
1416. You come from the island of Fetlar?-Yes.
1417. Where do you live there?-In Aithness.
1418. Are you a married woman?-No.
1419. Do you live with your people?-Yes.
1420. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
1421. What do you knit?-Fine shawls and veils.
1422. Do you knit these articles with your own wool?-Yes.
1423. Do you make your own worsted, or buy it?-I buy wool,
and make it.
1424. Where do you buy it?-From any person who sells it. There
is a Mrs. Smith in Fetlar who sells wool. She lives at a place
called Smithfield.
1425. Has she a shop?-No. They formerly had shop, but they
don't have one now. She is a widow
1426. Has she any land?-Yes; she has a small farm. She has
some sheep, and she obliges any person with wool who wants it.
1427. Do you always buy your wool from her?-[Page 29]
Sometimes from her, and sometimes from any merchant I can get
it from.
1428. Do you pay for it in money?-Yes; or in work.
1429. What kind of work?-Any kind of household work that they
have to do. People employ others to do so much work, and give
them wool for it.
1430. Do you mean work on their farms or ground-Yes; and they
will give them wool in return, because the wool in Fetlar is so
scarce.
1431. You knit on your own account, and sell what you knit?-
Yes.
1432. Do you sell it to merchants in Fetlar?-No. There are no
merchants in Fetlar who take it. I come down to Lerwick with it
once a year.
1433. Do you then bring in with you all that you have knitted
during the season?-Yes.
1434. How much will you bring?-It is not much; perhaps two or
three shawls. I have had as high as five shawls when I came down.
We have household work to attend to, and we cannot knit so fast
as they do here in Lerwick.
1435. It is just part of your time that you can give?-Yes.
1436. Have you come down just now for the purpose of selling the
articles you have knitted?-Yes.
1437. How many shawls did you bring with you this year?-Two.
1438. That is less than usual?-Yes.
1439. How do you get paid for your shawls?-I get goods out of
the shop.
1440. Does the merchant fix the price 'for the shawl' when you
take it in?-Yes.
1441. How much did you get for the two you brought down this
time?-16s. for one, and 17s. for the other; and I had one
belonging to another person that I got 19s. for.
1442. Who was the merchant that you sold them to?-Mr.
Sinclair.
1443. What did you get for them?-Goods.
1444. Did you ask for money?-I did not ask for money, because it
has been understood for many years back that they would not give
any, and goods are marked on the paper that we get. When I come
down I employ a person to dress the shawls, and then that person
sells them for me in the shop, and I get back a note from her,
stating the amount in goods that I am to get for them. I understand
not to ask for money, because the thing is always in that form.
1445. When you get the note, do you hand it back at the shop and
get the goods in return?-Yes.
1446. Have you got any of these notes?-No; I have got the goods
for them, and I was preparing to return to Fetlar when I was
summoned here.
1447. Is the note printed or written?-It is all written.
1448. Who is the dresser that you employ?-A Miss Robertson. I
don't know where she lives. The woman I live with when in
Lerwick-Mrs. Park, Charlotte Place-went with her when she
sold the shawls.
1449. Do you never go to the shop and sell your own shawls?-
Sometimes I do; but not this time.
1450. Did you ever go to the shop to sell your shawls, and ask to
be paid in money?-No; because I understood I would get no
money.
1451. Did you ever get any part of the balance in money?-None.
1452. What do you get in goods?-Any kind of soft goods which I
want, and which are in the shop. If the goods I want are not in the
shop, then they would say that they did not have them; and I would
have to take something else.
1453. Is it just soft goods that are in the shop?-Yes.
1454. Not provisions?-No; not provisions.
1455. Is there any tea?-No.
1456. You go to the shop yourself for your goods, and hand your
line in payment for them?-Yes.
1457. Could you the same goods in Fetlar?-I could get the goods
in Fetlar if I had money to give for them; but I could not get money
for shawls or veils in Fetlar.
1458. But if you had the money, could you get the goods as good
and cheap in Fetlar as in Lerwick?-Yes; they are very cheap in
Fetlar. Messrs. Hay Co. have a shop there.
1459. And you think you could get your goods as good and cheap
there as you can in Lerwick?-Yes.
1460. And of course you would not have to carry them back with
you?-No.
1461. Are there many people in Fetlar who knit the same way as
you do, and come in to Lerwick to sell their shawls?-Yes; there
are a good many people who knit in the same way that I do, and
come down here with their shawls, because there is no other way
of disposing of them.
1462. Do they get their payment in the same way?-So far as I
know, they do.
1463. Do they always get goods for their lines when they come
down?-Yes.
1464. Will they not get a line to come down at another time for the
goods?-No; I don't think they would get them in that way.
1465. Suppose you did not want the whole amount of your line in
goods at one time, could you not take the line home with you, and
when you happened to be again in Lerwick might you not get the
balance in any kind of goods you wanted that were in the shop?-
Yes; and I could get the goods at any time if I were to send down
the line.
1466. Is that sometimes done?-I have never done it; but I suppose
the merchants would do it.
1467. Did you ever know of a line being sold to another for
money, or for another kind of goods?-No; I never did that myself,
and I don't know of it being done.
1468. Is it all drapery that you are taking back?-Yes.
1469. Then you will have about £2 or £3 worth of it this time?-
Yes.
1470. Do you want all that for your own use?-The girl for whom
I sold one of the shawls will get her share of it.
1471. But when you brought down five shawls you might have
twice as much to take back as you have this time?-It is not very
much that they give for the shawls sometimes; and once, when I
came down from Fetlar and had to pay the freight, I had to take
what they would give me; and I could not get what I asked.
1472. Is it all stuff for, your own use that you are taking back, in
exchange for your own, shawls which you sold?-Yes.
1473. Do you want the goods?-Yes.
1474. Are you to use them for yourself?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARGARET TULLOCH, examined.
1475. You live in Lerwick
1476. Are you in the habit of knitting for merchants here?-Yes.
1477. Do you buy your own wool?-For about eighteen months I
have bought it.
1478. Before that, how did you do?-I knitted for Mr. Robert
Linklater.
1479. You got the wool from him and knitted it, and took back the
articles to him?-Yes.
1480. When you got the wool from him, in what way were you
paid?-In goods.
1481. Had you a pass-book?-Yes.
1482. Have you got it with you?-Yes. [Produces it]
1483. The goods you got at the shop are entered in the first part of
the book, and then at the end there are entries of the knitted work
which you have brought back to the shop?-Yes; I knitted a great
deal before I took the pass-book out at all.
1484. The knitting begins on July 7th, 1869, and the goods begin
in November 1866, and there was balance due for knitting of £3,
17s., 10d., which is not entered in the book at all: how do you
explain in that?-It was them who always made up the book.
[Page 30]
1485. Had you a pass-book for goods before this?-I knitted a long
time before I took a pass-book.
1486. When did you begin to knit?-I cannot remember how many
years it is ago. I had knitted for two or three years to Mr. Linklater
before I got the book.
1487. Are the goods which are entered here just for your own
use?-No; I sold some tea and got money for it, for I could not get
money out of the shop.
1488. I see that in, 1867, on January 3d, you have, Tea 1s. 10d.;
24th, 9d.; 26th, tea 11d., tea 11d., 1s. 10d: does the last entry mean
that you got two separate parcels of tea, each 11d.?-It may have
been that; I cannot exactly say.
1489. How much tea would you get for 11d.?-A quarter of a
pound.
1490. Then you got two quarter pounds on one day?-I suppose
so. One would be for my own use and the other not.
1491. What would the other be for?-I would likely sell the other,
in order to get money for it.
1492. Who do you generally sell it to?-I cannot remember who I
sold it to. Sometimes there would be men coming to the house to
buy, tea, and I supplied them.
1493. What kind of men were these?-Men come from the
country and want to have some tea made and I supply them with it
because I have it in the house.
1494. Do you keep lodgers?-I have very few lodgers; but
sometimes people come from the country and want tea made for
them, although they do not stay all night.
1495. Why, did they not stay all night?-Because they went home.
1496. Was it part of your business to take in people and give them
tea?-No; but they would come into the house and get tea made,
and then go out and do their errands.
1497. Then they came to your house to get refreshments?-Yes.
1498. And they sometimes paid you for the which they got?-Yes;
I was always paid for the tea which I gave them in that way.
1499. Did you sell it to them in quarter pounds or smaller
quantities?-Smaller quantities.
1500. Do you make a profit off that?-I get money for that, but I
cannot say that I make a profit. Sometimes I had people working
for me, to whom I gave a quarter pound of tea.
1501. When you got two quarter pounds, would you sell one
quarter entire?-Yes. When people were working for me, then I
had to give them a quarter of a pound of tea in order to pay them,
because I did not have money to give them.
1502. What people had you working for you?-I have sometimes
been sick, and I have had a person attending upon me, because I
am not healthy; and I had to pay these persons in tea.
1503. Are you a married woman?-No.
1504. Have you a house of your own?-Yes; a room.
1505. The entries in this book only come down to February 1870.
Have you had no book since then?-No.
1506. Have you still been dealing with Mr. Linklater?-No; I have
been working for myself with my own worsted. That was when I
stopped knitting for him.
1507. I see an entry on September 9th 1868, Tea 10d., tea 8d., 1s.
6d.: would these be two quarter pounds of tea of different
quality?-Sometimes they would be that, and sometimes not.
1508. But I am speaking of that particular entry. Was it so in that,
case?-I cannot remember.
1509. But when you got tea at 10d. and tea at 8d., that must have
been two quarter pounds of different qualities?-Yes; I would get
better tea, and tea that was not so good.
1510. When you got them on the same day, would you be
intending to sell one of them?-Yes.
1511. Is that a common practice, to get two quarter pounds of tea
and to sell one of them, or to get several quarter pounds in
payment for your shawl?-No; I just got it as I asked for it.
1512. Have you sold anything else besides tea which you got from
the shop?-Yes, cottons and some moleskins which I had to take
out of the shop in order to pay my rent.
1513. I don't see any moleskins marked here?-No; they are not in
that book.
1514. Had you any other book?-No; it was when I sold my own
shawls that I took the moleskins.
1515. You say you buy your own wool: where do you buy it?-
There is a woman who spins it for me. I buy it in worsted.
1516. Do you pay her for it in money?-Yes.
1517. And you sell your shawls to any merchant who will buy
them?-Yes.
1518. How are you paid for them?-I sold the last two to Miss
Robina Leisk.
1519. Is she a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
1520. Has she a shop?-Yes.
1521. How were you paid for these shawls?-I got £2, 14s. for the
two-27s. apiece.
1522. Were you paid in money?-No.
1523. Were they fine shawls?-Yes
1524-5. Did you get any part of that sum in money?-14s.
1526. Was that all you asked for in money?-Yes.
1527. And you got the rest in goods?-Yes.
1528. Did you want these goods for your own use?-No; I took
some moleskins to sell.
1529. Was that because you could not get the rest in money?-
Yes.
1530. Did you ask for more in money?-She did not want to give
me more.
1531. Did you ask for more?-I did not ask for it, because I knew I
would not get it.
1532. Did she say she would give you that much, without your
asking?-Yes.
1533. What did you do with the moleskins?-I sold them.
1534. How much of them did you take?-21/2 yards.
1535. What was the price of them?-2s. 8d. a yard.
1536. Was there anything else you bought for the purpose of
selling?-Yes; I bought some cotton.
1537. Have you sold it?-Yes.
1538. Did you get as much for it as you paid?-Yes.
1539. Did you get a little more?-No; no more. I thought it a
favour to get the same price.
1540. Did you know any person who would take these goods from
you at the time you got them, or did you buy them on the chance of
selling them?-No; I knew a person who would buy them from
me.
1541. Is that the way you generally deal when you have shawls to
sell?-Yes.
1542. You get some things that you want, and some things that
your neighbours want, and as much as you can in money?-Yes.
1543. Do you often get tea for the purpose of selling it?-I get it
when I ask it; but I only ask it when I know of a person who will
take it from me for what they have done for me.
1544. How do you purchase the provisions-the meal and bread-
that you want?-When I sell anything that I get for my work, I buy
them with the money.
1545. But if you don't have the money, what do you do?-I don't
have money at the time, I go down to a shop and get it from them
until I can get the money to pay for it.
1546. What did you do with the 14s. that you got for the shawls
from Miss Leisk?-It would go for worsted to make other things.
1547. Have you always to pay money for your worsted?-Yes.
1548. You don't get provisions, either meal or bread, at the shops
where you sell your shawls?-No.
1549. Is that never done in Lerwick?-No; I never had it done to
me. Those who buy the shawls keep nothing of that kind.
1550. Would you be content to take a lower price [Page 31] for
your shawls if you were paid for them in money instead of
goods?-Yes.
1551. Have the merchants ever offered you a lower price for your
shawls in money?-No.
1552. Have you ever asked them to do that, or tried to get them to
do it?-I knew that I need not try that, because I would not have
got it.
1553. Do you manage to sell many of your shawls privately in the
town, or to visitors in the summer?-No.
1554. Is there not a good deal of that done in Lerwick?-I believe
some people do that, but I don't do it.
1555. Is it not an advantage to get them sold in that way?-Yes; I
think it would be an advantage to get ready money.
1556. Do charitable ladies sometimes take the shawls-and get
them sold to their friends at a distance?-I can say nothing about
that, because I never sold them in that way.
1557. Do you give receipts for the goods or money which you get
as the price of your shawls?-No.
1558. The transaction is all done across the counter, without any
writing?-Yes.
1559. Do you know whether the shopkeeper enters the price of the
shawls, and the amount of the goods sold to you in return for them,
in any book? Do you see whether that is done?-No, I don't see it.
1560. You have never noticed that?-No.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARY HUTCHISON, examined.
1561. You live in Lerwick?-Yes.
1562. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
1563. Do you knit with your own wool?-Yes.
1564. Do you sell your knitting in Lerwick?-I sell some of it in
Lerwick; but I send the most of it south, to Mr. John F. White,
Edinburgh.
1565. Do you also act as an agent for him in Lerwick, by taking in
things from other people?-Yes; a little.
1566. How are you paid for the articles you send to him?-I am
paid in ready money.
1567. Is it remitted to you by a post office order or a bank cheque,
as the case may be?-Yes.
1568. How much do you send to him?-I never send a large
quantity. I just send what he tells me: a few shawls at a time.
1569. He gives you orders which you execute?-Yes.
1570. Do many women who knit come and sell their shawls to
you?-No; I don't buy shawls. I give out wool to be knitted.
1571. How do you purchase your wool?-I buy it for money.
1572. From merchants in Lerwick?-Yes. Sometimes I buy from
Mr. Sinclair, but generally I send to the North Isles for it, to people
who buy it in there.
1573. There are people in the North Isles who buy the wool from
their neighbours and sell it to you, such as Mrs. Smith, who was
spoken of by a previous witness?-Yes; much the same.
1574 Have you dealt with her?-No.
1575. Do you pay the women who work for you in money?-Yes.
1576. You don't keep a store?-No, nothing except the money; or
whatever they require they got it.
1577. Do you make a bargain when you give out the wool, or fix
price when you see the work?-I buy the wool, and employ them
to knit it.
1578. You do not merely act as agent for Mr. White?-No; I just
buy the wool and employ the women, and pay them according to
the size of the shawl.
1579. How many women are working for you in that way?-I
cannot say exactly.
1580. Are there about half a dozen?-Yes, just about that.
1581. Do you find that the women here are anxious to work for
you?-Yes; they are anxious to get money.
1582. You think they would much rather work, for you than for a
merchant who keeps a shop?-Yes; I am never at a loss for them.
When I am in a hurry I always get them to help me, because I pay
in money.
1583. I suppose you get the choice of the knitters?-I don't know
about that. I just get done what I have to do.
1584. Have you often been applied to by women who were
anxious to work for you rather than for the shops?-Yes; very
often.
1585. Do they tell you that it is a kindness or charity to employ
them?-Yes; because they could not get the money out of the
shops.
1586. Do you know, from your own observation of the system, as
to the mode of dealing at the shops?-I often sell shawls in the
shops, although I am not in the habit of going with them myself, so
that I am often dealing a little in the shops.
1587. You send them by some other person?-Yes: I employ a girl
to go and sell them for me.
1588. In that case, how is the transaction carried out?-I just get a
line out of the shop, and get goods for it.
1589. Is the line in your name?-No; it is just a simple line or
I O U, and I send it back: to the shop at any time when I want the
goods.
1590. Have you any of these lines with you?-I have one at home,
which I will send in.
1591. From whom did you get it?-From Mr Robert Sinclair.
1592. Have you sometimes got these lines from knitters?-Yes;
often.
1593. They wanted money, and could not get it at the shops, and
brought their lines to you?-Yes; I have often taken a line and
given them money for it in order to meet their necessities, because
they would not get money elsewhere.
1594. You kept these lines until you could make some use of them
yourself?-Yes. Whenever I required any little thing, I sent to the
shop for it, and paid for it with these lines.
1595. Have you any of these lines belonging to other women in
your hands just now?-I have not.
1596. How much money may you have had lying out in that way at
a time?-Not very much; perhaps a few shillings now and then.
1597. Are the lines generally for a large amount?-No; from 8s. to
7s. or 8s., or thereabout.
1598. May you have had two or three of them at a time?-Perhaps
one or two.
1599. Have you known other, people taking lines in the same
way?-Yes;, I believe there are many who do it.
1600. Do you know any one who is often applied to in that way?-
I cannot say exactly; but I have often taken a line from Miss
Elizabeth Robertson, who was examined on Monday, and given
her money for it, because she was in necessity.
1601. Does Janet Irvine knit for you?-Yes.
1602. Have you taken lines, from her?-No; she is a fish-girl, and
does not knit much.
1603. In selling your own shawls to the shops, have you asked for
money?-No; but I have told the girl who went with the shawls to
sell them for me to ask for a shilling or two, and she said she need
not ask for it because she would not get it.
1604. But that was a case of sale. You know nothing about the
case where, the wool has been given out by the shops?-No, I
don't know about that, because it is long since I knitted any for the
shops.
1605. Do you know of any other person in Lerwick who sends
hosiery south in the same way?-Yes; there are plenty of them
through the town.
1606. Do they send the hosiery, south direct to White or to other
merchants in Edinburgh or Glasgow?-Yes; there are, plenty who
do that; but I never have any dealings with any one except Mr.
White.
1607. Who else in Lerwick deals in that way with [Page 32] the
shops in the south?-There is a Mrs. James Henry in Burn's Lane,
and a Mrs. Elizabeth Anderson, and several other people.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, CATHERINE BORTHWICK, examined.
1608. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-I am.
1609. Do you buy your own wool?-No.
1610. Who do you knit for?-For Mr. Robert Sinclair, Mr.
Thomas Nicholson, and sometimes for Miss Robina Leisk.
1611. Have you books with all these people
1612. Have you any pass-book at all?-No.
1613. You get the wool weighed out to you, and you take back the
article which has been ordered?-Yes.
1614. What articles do you knit?-Veils, shawls, neckties, ladies'
scarfs, and the like.
1615. How long have you been doing business in that way?-
About fifteen years.
1616. How are you paid?-Just in goods from the shops.
1617. You take an article which you have made to the shop, and
tell them what the price is?-No; they price it themselves.
1618. Do they price it when the material is given out to you?-No;
they price it when the article is brought to them again.
1619. When they have fixed the price, what takes place?-I can
get anything out of their shop in the shape of goods that I ask for,
only I cannot get any money.
1620. Do you not get part of the price in money?-No; I have
never any money from Mr. Sinclair, except perhaps 5s., for the
whole fourteen years I have wrought for him.
1621. Do you get money from other dealers you have
mentioned?-I have got a little money from Mr. Thomas
Nicholson; but it is not long since he began business for himself.
1622. Do you often go into the shops with articles worth about
10s?-Yes.
1623. How much of that do you get in money?-I have never got
any money from Mr. Sinclair at all. It is about seven years since I
asked him for 1s., and he would not give it me, and I have not
asked since.
1624. Can you only get dry goods and tea at the shops?-I can get
tea, and soap, and soda, and blue, and starch, and the like of that.
1625. How do you get your food?-I have a father, who buys it for
me.
1626. You live with your father, and get your food with the
family?-Yes; what his wages can bring in.
1627. Is that the only way you have of getting a living?-No;
sometimes I have to take things out of the shop and sell them for
money.
1628. To whom do you sell them?-To any neighbour or any
person who requires them.
1629. Do you do that often?-No; I have not done it for the last
two years, because some of the ladies in the town have employed
me to knit for money.
1630. Do you prefer to sell to ladies in the town?-Yes.
1631. Are the goods which you knit for them for their own use?-
Yes; or perhaps they get an order from the south, and they will
rather put the money our way than go to the merchants with it.
1632. Do many ladies befriend you in that way?-Not many.
There is Mrs. Walker, the Rev. Mr. Walker's lady.
1633. Who else?-I have not done anything for any other person
for money.
1634. But Mrs. Walker pays you in money?-Yes; and the same
amount as I would get in goods from the shops.
1635. Are the women who knit anxious to get customers of that
kind?-Yes.
1636. Would you be content with a lower price for your shawls if
you could get it in cash?-Yes.
1637. Have you ever been to take a lower price and get the
money?-No.
1638. Have you ever offered to take less for your shawls if you
could get money?-Yes.
1639. To whom did you make that offer?-I offered a white half-
shawl to Mr. Robert Sinclair, and I also offered a white half-shawl
to Mr. Thomas Nicholson.
1640. When?-The one I sold to Mr. Nicholson was in the spring,
and that to Mr. Sinclair was about two years back.
1641. How much less did you offer to take in these cases?-2s.
The shawl was worth £1, and I offered it for 18s.
1642. Was anything due to you by Mr. Sinclair at the time you
asked for the shilling?-Yes; I think he was due me about 5s. 6d.
at that time.
1643. Do you mean that you took goods to the shop worth 5s.
6d.?-No; he was due me about 5s., 6d. at that time. I was
knitting a shawl for him, and was settling up for it.
1644. Was the shawl not finished?-Yes; I brought the shawl
ready, and I was settling up. I had all the price of the shawl to get,
and I took some goods, and then there was about 5s. 6d. over; and
I asked him for 1s., and he said he could not give it to me.
1645. How did you square the balance at that time?-I just took
something to give to a girl who had been working in our peats.
1646. What did you take?-A petticoat.
1647. Was it worth. 5s. 6d.?-Yes; the girl took it because she
knew I could not get the money.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS. MARGERY MANSON or
ANDERSON, examined.
1648. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.
1649. Do you knit with your own wool?-I have done so for the
last twelve months.
1650. Before that, who did you knit for?-For Mr. Robert
Linklater.
1651. You got wool from him?-Yes.
1652. Were you paid for your work in goods, or in money?-In
goods.
1653. Did you get any money from him that you asked for, if you,
wanted some?-I knew that I need not ask him for any, because I
would not have got it.
1654. You are married, and therefore you don't spend all your
time in knitting?-No.
1655. Why did you give up knitting for Mr. Linklater?-Because I
could not do with it; it did not pay me.
1656. How did it not pay you?-I could not get money.
1657. But were the goods you got not as good you as money?-
No.
1658. Were they not worth the money value that was put upon
them?-No.
1659. Why was that?-I did not have money to live upon.
1660. But your husband keeps you?-No; he is sickly, and I have
to do for myself.
1661. You have heard the evidence of the preceding witnesses,
Catherine Borthwick and Margaret Tulloch?-Yes.
1662. They have explained the way of dealing here. Is that the
way you have been accustomed to?-Yes.
1663. Have you anything different to say about the way in which
you were paid for shawls that you knitted with Mr. Linklater's
wool?-No.
1664. Did you ever get lines when you would not take goods?-
No; I had a pass-book.
1665. Have you got it here?-No.
1666. Was it kept in the same way as Margaret Tulloch's?-Yes.
1667. The goods you got were entered at one end, and the shawls
you gave in were entered at the other, and a balance was made
now and then?-Yes.
[Page 33]
1668. How often was your book balanced?-I don't remember.
1669. Did you sign your pass-book as a receipt?-No; he signed it.
1670. You have had no pass-book since you began to knit with
your own wool?-No.
1671. Where do you buy your wool now?-I have a woman
spinning for me, and I buy the worsted from her.
1672. You pay her in ready money?-Yes.
1673. Do you sell your shawls to any person in particular?-Yes;
to Mr Robert Sinclair.
1674. Are you paid for them in goods?-Yes, and a little in
money. I always get some money from him to buy the worsted
with.
1675. Would you be content with a lower price for your shawls if
you were paid in money?-Yes.
1676. Have you ever asked to get it all in money, and offered to
take less?-No.
1677. Do you ever sell shawls to ladies or to any person not in the
trade?-No; Mr. Robert Sinclair has bought them all from me.
1678. Have you ever asked for more money from any of the
merchants than they would give you?-No.
1679. Have you ever got lines?-Yes, I got lines from Mr.
Sinclair.
1680. When?-When I gave in my articles.
1681. And when you did not happen to want goods?-Yes.
1682. Have you got any of these lines?-No.
1683. What did you do with them?-I gave them back when I got
the goods.
1684. Was that long ago?-No, not long ago; it was when I sold
my last shawl to him.
1685. Would that be a month or two?-Yes.
1686. Was a line given to you for the whole price of the shawl that
you were selling, or was it only for the balance?-27s., was the
price of the shawl.
1687. How much of that did you take in goods?-I took about one
half of it, and I got a line for the rest.
1688. Did you take the line out in goods afterwards-Yes.
1689. You did not think of asking money for the line?-No; I
never asked money at that time.
1690. Did you ever know of people selling their lines to their
neighbours?-No.
1691. Or dealing with them in any way, or letting their neighbours
get goods for them?-No.
1692. How much of the 27s., the price of your last shawl, did you
get in money?-7s.
1693. When was that?-I think about two months ago, I do not
recollect exactly.
1694. Was the 7s. all that you asked for?-Yes; I asked for the 7s.
and he said he would give it to me.
1695. Did you take 4s. or 5s, worth of goods at the same time?-
Yes; or perhaps more.
1696. And the rest in a line?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, JEMIMA SANDISON, examined.
1697. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.
1698. Do you knit with your own wool?-No.
1699. Do you knit for merchants in the town?-Yes; for Mr.
Robert Sinclair.
1700. Have you a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.]
1701. Do you deal with Mr Sinclair in the way which has been
described already by the Witnesses you have heard?-No.
1702. Do you deal in a different way?-Yes.
1703. How is that? You get wool from him to knit into shawls or
veils?-Yes; chiefly veils.
1704. The goods you get are entered in the passbook you have
produced, and the goods given in are entered at the end of it?-
Yes.
1705. Are the goods supplied to you always goods which you are
requiring for your own use?-Yes.
1706. You do not sell any of them, or get them for your
neighbours?-No; unless such goods as my own family require.
1707. Do you live with your own family?-Yes; with my mother.
1708. Do you get part of the payment for your shawls and veils in
money?-Yes; whenever I ask money I get it. I never asked a
shilling from Mr. Sinclair himself but that I always got it.
1709. When you got money for a shawl, how was it entered in the
book?-I cannot say anything about that.
1710. If you were to take two veils to Mr. Sinclair and ask the
money for them, do you think you would get it?-I cannot say,
because I never asked it; but whenever I asked for a small quantity
of money, such as 2s. or the like of that, I got it.
1711. What quantity of goods did you generally take at a time?-I
cannot say that either. I don't think I ever had money to get out of
his book. I was always due him something, and in that way I could
not ask him for money.
1712. Then your account was larger than the value of the articles
which you took to him?-Yes.
1713. If that was so, did you ever ask him for money at all?-Yes;
sometimes, when I was in a strait for money I asked him for a
little, and I got it.
1714. Then that was an advance, which he made when there was
nothing due to you?-Yes; I have asked him for money when I
was due him.
1715. But you don't know how that was entered in the pass-book,
or whether it was entered there at all?-No; I don't think it was
entered.
1716. I see there are entries in your pass-book: April 28, 1871,
cash 1s.; April 26, cash 6d.: is that the way the money was
entered?-Yes.
1717. There is an entry of worsted, 5d. was that worsted given to
you for the purpose of knitting shawls to Mr. Sinclair?-I asked
for worsted to buy, and I got it to knit for myself, and to sell again.
1718. Then it is entered in the pass-book just as goods?-Yes.
1719. Is there any difficulty made about giving you worsted in that
way and entering it in the pass-book?-No; whenever I ask for
worsted, I get it the same as any other thing out of the shop.
1720. Were you ever told that worsted was a money article?-No;
I never was told that, so far as I can remember.
1721. Have you dealt in any other shop than Mr. Sinclair's in this
way?-No; I have knitted for two and a half years for Mr, Sinclair.
1722. And always in the same way?-Yes.
1723. Are you a North Unst woman?-Yes.
1724. Do you live in Lerwick by yourself?-I live with my mother
and my two sisters in a room.
1725. Does your mother knit?-No; she spins.
1726. Does she spin your wool?-No; she gets wool from other
people to spin, and gets money for her work. She only spins for
those who employ her.
1727. Does she spin for the shops?-No; she spins generally for
ladies in the town, who employ her to make worsted for them.
1728. Ask her employers altogether ladies, not merchants?-They
are just merchants' wives, and ladies in the town-chiefly Dr.
Cowie's lady.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS ANN ARCUS, examined.
1729. You are a dresser in Lerwick?-Yes.
1730. How do you carry on that business? What is the nature of
it?-I sometimes make shawls myself, and sell them. There
[producing it] is a line of mine, which I got from Mr. Sinclair.
1731. Do you dress shawls or make them?-I dress shawls, and
sometimes I make them or get them made.
1732. What is the dressing business?-Washing the shawls, and
stretching them on the grass, and mending [Page 34] them and
making them ready for the market. The stitches sometimes give
way when they are stretched and then I mend them.
1733. Do you also bleach the shawls?-We whiten them with
brimstone.
1734. You do that before stretching them on the grass?-Yes.
1735. That is part of the washing process?-Yes.
1736. Does every shawl, after being knitted require to be so
dressed before it is sold?-Yes.
1737. The merchants don't buy shawls until after they are
dressed?-No.
1738. Are your transactions in dressing shawls always with the
knitters, or are they sometimes with the merchants?-Sometimes
they are with the merchants, and sometimes with the knitters.
1739. Then the merchants do buy shawls undressed?-No; they do
not buy them undressed, but they send some shawls out to be
worked for themselves; and it is these shawls I dress for them
1740 In that way a knitter who works for a merchant has nothing
to do with you?-No.
1741. When she has knitted a shawl with wool supplied by the
merchant, she takes it to the merchant, and he sends it to you to be
dressed?-Yes.
1742. It is only the knitters who work with their own wool who
come to you?-Yes.
1743. Do you also buy shawls from knitters yourself?-No; but I
get shawls made in the same way as the merchants do, and then I
sell them.
1744. To whom do you sell them?-To the merchants.
1745. Do you send any shawls south?-No.
1746. Do you sometimes sell knitted articles to the merchants on
behalf of the knitters?-Yes.
1747. When a knitter brings you a shawl to dress, I suppose she
pays you in money?-Yes.
1748. What is the usual for that?-There are different charges,
according to the size of the shawl; but for the general run of them
it is 6d.
1749. And that is always paid by the knitter to you in money?-
Yes.
1750. In what way is it that you are sometimes asked to sell
articles for the knitters?-Because I cannot always have them
dressed and ready for them to sell after the time they come in with
the goods and before they go away again. These women come
from the country, and I cannot have their things ready before they
want to go home again; and therefore I sell them for them before
they come back.
1751. You sell them as their agent?-Yes.
1752. And then you account to them for the price?-Yes. I get the
price from some of the merchants, but others mark it in their
books, and don't give lines. These merchants mark down the price
of the shawl, and the name of the woman who owns it.
1753. And she, when she comes to the merchant again, arranges
with him as to the price?-Yes.
1754. Is it within your knowledge that these shawls are always
paid for in goods?-The country girls don't want money, and don't
ask it. It is always clothing they need, and they get it.
1755. Then they just knit for the purpose of supplying themselves
with clothing?-Yes.
1756. How is it that they don't want money?-They have some
other way of doing at home, and I suppose they only want their
clothing from the shops in Lerwick.
1757. Then the knitting with them is an extra sort of
employment?-Yes; it is not exactly a livelihood for them.
1758. Is that the case with the town girls too?-No; they generally
depend on their knitting for a living.
1759. Do they regard it as a hardship not to get money?-I can
only speak for myself, not for them. When I have a shawl of my
own, and ask some money on it, I get it.
1760. Do the town girls come to you to sell their articles for
them?-No; they sell their own work themselves. I dress the
shawls for them, and they get the price themselves-sometimes in
money I suppose, to pay me with.
1761. You think they get sufficient money for their shawls from
the merchants, to pay your charge?-They get money somewhere
to pay me with: whether it is their own money or not I don't know.
I don't take anything but money.
1762. You give them credit sometimes until their shawl is sold?-
Yes.
1763. And then they come back you with the charge for
dressing?-Yes.
1764. You shown me a line: where did you get it?-I got it in Mr.
Robert Sinclair's shop-I think from his clerk.
1765. When?-When I sold my shawl-a shawl of my own, which
I knitted myself.
1766. You did not want anything particular at the time, and
therefore you took the line: was that so?-No. I asked him for a
little money on the shawl, and I got it; and then I got the line, so
that I could buy what I required afterwards as I needed it.
1767. Did you ask for money?-Yes; I asked for a little, and I got
the sum which is marked on the line as having been paid to me in
cash.
1768. He gave you 6s. in cash?-Yes.
1769. Was that all you wanted?-Yes. I did not ask for that sum, I
only said I wanted a little money, he gave that.
1770. The line, is in these terms:
'C Z 91-Cr. bearer value in goods twenty six
shillings 26s. stg.
'To cash 6s; to Vict. tartan 4s. 7d.
' ' White cotton, 6d.; wincey, 2s. 10d.
' ' Grey cotton, 6d.
'R. SINCLAIR & CO.
'C. S.
'28.12.71'
This was last Thursday?-Yes.
1771. Was the shawl with your own?-Yes.
1772. Then it was just a sale to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.
1773. You got 6s. in cash and 8s. 5d. in goods, and the rest is still
due?-Yes, for me to get when I require it.
1774. Is that a usual way of doing business in Lerwick?-Yes; but
I have got the whole of the price in money from a merchant for a
shawl when asked for it-not for myself, but for a country girl.
1775. From whom have you got it all in money?-From Mr
William Johnston. The price was 20s.
1776. Is he a hosiery dealer, just in the same way as Sinclair &
Co., and Mr. Laurenson, and Mr. Linklater?-Yes. I have had
money from them all whenever I asked for it.
1777. Would the women get money from them if they were selling
the shawls themselves?-I cannot answer for that. I don't know
that they would.
1778. Is it not the fact that the reason why you are sometimes
asked to sell shawls for these women is that you can get the money
for them?-I don't ask any money for the country girls at all; they
never asked me to seek it.
1779. Do not the girls employ you to sell their shawls because they
think you may get some money from the merchants, when they
would not?-It is just because they think I can get a better price; at
least that is what I think is the reason. They don't bid me get
money.
1780. Do you think the merchants give you a better price?-They
think so.
1781. Perhaps you can make a better bargain for them?-They
have that idea.
1782. Have you never been asked by a country girl to sell a shawl
for her and to get money for it?-Never.
1783. Then, on the occasions when you have got money, it has
been for shawls which you have sold either for yourself or for
town girls?-Yes, but particularly for my self.
1784. Have you sold them for town girls, and got money for
them?-No; I have never asked money for any person but myself,
and I have always got it.
[Page 35]
1785. How many shawls may you sell for yourself in the course of
a year?-Sometimes there may be two.
1786. May there sometimes be three?-I could not tell the number
particularly, but I have always one or two in the course of the
twelvemonth.
1787. I suppose you are chiefly engaged with your dressing
business, and have not much time to knit shawls?-Yes; the
dressing is my only way of living.
1788. Are you a widow?-Yes.
1789. Have you often got lines similar to the one you have now
produced?-Yes. Whenever I sell a shawl to Mr. Sinclair I get
these lines, and then I give them to the girls to whom the shawls
belong.
1790. Then they don't always want the value of their shawls in
goods, but they sometimes take a line-Yes; and they keep it until
they want something else. They are always served with what they
want when they come with a line.
1791. You have not a pass-book with any of the merchants?-No.
1792. I suppose pass-books are only used where girls knit with the
merchants wool?-Yes.
1793. Do you keep a pass-book with any of the merchants for the
shawls which you dress for them?-No; I just get the money.
1794. Are you paid for them at the time?-Yes.
1795. Will the merchant send you a large consignment of shawls at
a time to be dressed?-Yes; sometimes he may send a good lot.
1796. And you return the lot you have got when they are finished,
and get paid for them when you return them?-Yes; in money.
1797. There is nothing entered in any book between you about
that?-No.
1798. Are you the largest dresser in Lerwick?-I don't know that I
am.
1799. Are there any others in the business?-Yes; there are a good
many.
1800. Do they live mostly at the Docks?-No; there are one or two
dressers who live at the Docks. They don't do so much as I do, but
Mr. Sinclair has dressers of his own who do more than I.
1801. Does he pay them day's wages?-No; I think he pays them
just as they work for him. The veils, neckties, and scarfs go by
dozens.
1802. Is that the way you charge for these things?-I charge 11s.
6d. for a dozen veils, and the same for a dozen neckties or scarfs. I
charge 6d. for every shawl, sometimes 3d. or 4d. if it is small, or
1s. if it is a very fine one.
1803. Have you ever sold shawls to any people except
merchants?-I have.
1804. Do you sometimes sell to private ladies?-Yes, and
gentlemen too.
1805. Do you sell to visitors in summer, and to people living in
Lerwick?-Yes.
1806. Do you consider you are likely to get a better bargain with
them than with the merchants?-I get the money from them.
1807. But you have no reason for dealing with them for the
purpose of getting the money, because you say you get money
from the merchants if you ask it?-Yes; but if a gentleman comes
and asks me for a shawl, he has nothing to give me except the
money, and I get it all in money then.
1808. Would you rather do with a gentleman or lady in that way
than with a merchant?-It is only sometimes that they can take a
shawl in that way; but the merchant always takes them.
1809. But would you prefer to deal with strangers rather than with
the merchants?-If they were always here, I should like it very
well.
1810. That is because you get a better bargain, and you are sure to
get all money?-Yes.
1811. Is it not rather a favour to you that the merchant gives you
money when you ask it?-I don't know whether it is a favour to
me, but I always get it when I ask it. But I don't have such a great
run of shawls as some of the other women have.
1812. It is rather out of your ordinary way to be selling shawls?-
Yes; but when I do make one and ask money, I get it.
1813. Have you ever got the whole price of a shawl in money?-
Yes.
1814. From the whole of merchants you have named?-No, only
from Mr. Johnston; and that was for a country girl, because she
was in need of it.
1815. That was a case in which you went out of your usual way,
because the girl required it?-Yes.
1816. Have you asked the whole money from any of the other
merchants?-No, I never did.
1817. You have only asked a part of it in money?-Yes.
1818. On a shawl worth 25s. that you were selling for yourself or
for a girl, how much might you, in a general way, ask in money?-
I have got as high as 10s. or 7s. 6d. or 5s., just as I asked it.
1819. But you never thought of asking the whole price of it in
money?-No; but I was always requiring something that the
merchants had to give me.
1820. Supposing you had a shawl to sell, would you give it to a
merchant for a lower price if he paid it down in cash, than if he
paid you in goods for it?-Yes; if I was requiring the cash, I
would.
1821. Would you not do it in any case?-I would be glad of the
money, certainly.
1822. Do you think it would be worth while for the knitters, as a
rule, to take a less price for their shawls and to get money for
them, rather than to go on in the present way?-I don't know
about that. For my own part, I should like if the people were to get
part of both-both money and articles. Nobody can live without
articles; and it is just as well to get them from the merchants who
buy our shawls, as to get the money.
1823. But if the merchants did pay all the price of the shawls in
money, it would just come back to them, because, as you say very
truly, people cannot do without some of the merchants' goods, and
the money would return to them in payment for their goods. Don't
you think, that would be a better system for all parties than the
present?-Those who need money would like to get it; but some
people don't stand so much in need of money as others. For
instance, if I were knitting shawls only, I would need most of the
price in money, because I have no other way of living but I don't
mean to say that girls who work merely for the sake of getting
clothing, require to get the whole price in money.
1824. But suppose they got all the price of their work in money,
might it not be easier for them to make the purchases of the goods
they require?-They would not get so much for their shawls then;
they could not expect it.
1825. That is because the merchant makes a profit upon the goods
he sells, as well as upon the shawls?-Yes.
1826. Are you aware whether it is a common thing in Lerwick, to
sell shawls cheaper for money than they would be given for
goods?-Yes, any person who required money would rather sell a
shawl for 1s. or 2s. less, in order to get it.
1827. Have you often seen that done?-Yes.
1828. Have you often done that yourself on behalf of the country
girls?-Yes.
1829. You mentioned a case where you got the whole price of a
shawl in money from Mr. Johnston: did you, in that case, say you
would give it for 2s. or 3s. less if you could get the whole price in
money?-Yes; because the girl required it, and told me to do that.
She wanted the money to pay her rent with.
1830. Was the price you got a fair price for the shawl?-It was at
that time.
1831. Is there anything else you wish to say on this subject?-I
have only to say that I think the girls ought to be very thankful to
the merchants, for they have done more for them than any one in
the place has done yet. They have bought their work, and then
they have gone and distributed it throughout the country. This
knitted work is not worn here; but the merchants have got a market
for it, and therefore I think the girls ought to be very grateful to
them.
[Page 36]
1832. Do you think they would not have got a market for their
goods themselves?-No; plenty of them would never have been
able to have gone to the market, even if they had thought of it.
1833. How long is it since that trade became general here?-I can
hardly tell; I was a little girl when it began. The first shawl I made
I got 7s. 6d. for, and I was very proud of it.
1834. How much would you get for that now?-They would not
buy such a thing now, the work was so open. I can just recollect of
it. I don't think I was much more than ten years at the time. I sold
it to Mr. Harrison, and he and Mr. Laurenson were about the first
who began to buy them. We got groceries and everything we
wanted then for our shawls.
1835. You do not get these things now, because the merchants
who buy the shawls don't have them?-They have them all except
groceries.
1836. With regard to the girls in town who sell the shawls to
merchants and get only goods in return, how do they do for a
living?-Some girls live with their parents, and can do very well.
1837. But a number of them live in rooms by themselves, and
perhaps have a parent or some other person to support out of their
earnings: how do they generally do for their food?-I can hardly
answer that. I don't know how they do; but I know that some of
the girls that I am in the habit of dressing the shawls for, come and
tell me they have sold a shawl today, and what they got for it, and
that they have got some money. Some of the merchants give them
money, and some of them tea, and worsted to knit another shawl
with; and that is just money.
1838. But if they have to make shawl with the worsted, they
cannot turn it into provisions?-No; but they will make another
shawl.
1839. And they may get 1s. or 2s. in money?-Yes.
1840. But if they only get 1s. or 2s. on each shawl, that is not
sufficient either to pay their house rent or to supply them with
provisions?-No; but I think there are some of them who may get
a shawl sold for all money, and then that pays the rent.
1841. They do happen to get that occasionally?-Yes; some lady
who wants one for a present to a friend might buy it from them.
That is the only way I can think of in which they can get their
provisions; but if it was the case that the merchants had groceries
in their shops, people would not require very much money, and
then they would get their livelihood.
1842. What kind of goods do you generally get for your country
girls in exchange for their shawls?-I do not buy them; they buy
them for themselves.
1843. You get lines, and they choose the goods for themselves
when they next come to town?-Yes.
1844. In that way you do not know what they get?-No; but I
always hear them say that they got very good bargains, and they
are generally well pleased.
1845. You say shawls are sometimes sold to a lady or gentleman
passing through the town; I suppose, in that case, there will be two
prices for them?-No.
1846. Would you ask from them the same price that you get from
the merchant in goods?-We might ask it, but, seeing the money,
we might give the shawl for less. Some people don't ask to have
the price reduced, but others do.
1847. You just make the best bargain you can, in each case?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH MOODIE, examined.
1848. Are you in the habit of knitting for any one in Lerwick?-
Yes; for Mr. Sinclair.
1849. Has any one asked you to come and give evidence here
to-day?-Yes; I was summoned.
1850. Did any one ask you besides that?-No.
1851. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it with wool supplied
to you by Mr. Sinclair?-Partly both, I generally have a shawl of
my own in hand, but I always knit for Mr. Sinclair.
1852. Do you keep a pass-book?-No; I never had a pass-book
with him.
1853. Are you paid in the same way both for your own shawls that
you sell, and for those that you knit for him?-No; generally when
I knit a shawl for Mr. Sinclair, he allows me so much for the
knitting of it; but when I sell a shawl, I price it myself.
1854. Is that price paid in the same way that the wages are paid to
you for knitting?-No.
1855. Is it paid to you in money in both cases; or in goods?-It is
paid in goods in both cases.
1856. Is there not a certain part of it, in both cases, that you can
get money for?-Yes. When I knitted for Mr. Sinclair before I
was married, he generally gave me money whenever I asked for it;
but since I had a house of my own, I generally manage my affairs
so that I do not have to ask him for money. I usually take clothes
for my children and myself from him without getting money at all;
but if I did ask him for money, I have no doubt he would give it to
me.
1857. Have you always got money when you asked for it?-Yes;
whenever I asked I got it.
1858. Do you generally take the whole value of your shawls in
goods?-Yes, I always do.
1859. And no money passes between you at all?-No, not since I
was married; but previously, when I asked him for money, I
always got it.
1860. Did you generally ask for a considerable part of the price of
your shawls in money?-Yes.
1861. How much might you get out of a 20s. shawl, for instance?-
Perhaps I might have asked him for 2s. or 2s, 6d., and so on,
money.
1862. Would that be about the usual thing?-Yes; that was
generally about the usual thing.
1863. Did you ever get the whole price of a shawl or of any
hosiery goods in money?-No; I never asked it.
1864. Do you live at home with your people, or did you live by
yourself before you were married?-I lived at home with my
father.
1865. So that you did not require any money with which to
purchase food for yourself?-No.
1866. You merely knitted to supply yourself with dress, or
whatever you wanted for yourself?-Yes.
1867. Did you require for your dress all the payments you received
for your knitting?-No, I cannot say that I required it all for
myself. I might have supplied some of my brothers or sisters with
any little thing they wanted.
1868. Did they repay you for that, or did you make a present of it
to them?-I generally made a present of it to them, as I was at
home.
1869. Would you have preferred to have been paid wholly in
money?-I should prefer to be paid part of both, if I could manage
it.
1870. Would you prefer to get half the price in money?-Yes, I
would like that very well.
1871. Could you not get one half of it in money if you asked for
it?-I believe if I had asked for it I could have got it, but I did not
ask it.
1872. Then, if you preferred it, why did you not ask for it?-I told
you I managed my affairs in such a way that I did not need it.
1873. But you said you would have preferred to have had half of it
in money?-Provided I could have got it, I should have liked it
very well; but I did not ask that.
1874. Why did you not ask it? Do you think there would have
been a difficulty in getting it?-I don't know; I only know that I
never asked for one half of it in money.
1875. Why?-I generally took a line for what remained to me
upon a shawl. I might have got the money instead of a line, but I
did not ask it.
1876. You have taken lines sometimes?-Yes, I generally took
them.
1877. Have you any of these lines have none just now?-No, I
have none just now.
1878. When you get a line, do you always take it [Page 37] back to
the shop, and get goods?-Yes; I sometimes take it back to the
shop.
1879. What do you do with it at other times?-Sometimes a friend
may require a line from me, and give me money for it.
1880. If you were selling your goods for ready money, would you
take a less price for them?-Sometimes I have seen me take a
shilling or so less if it was all money.
1881. But you said you never got the whole price of a shawl in
money?-Occasionally I sold a shawl to a stranger in the place in
the summer time, and I might give it to him for a shilling less.
1882. Do you generally get a smaller price when you sell to a
stranger in that way?-Perhaps I may sometimes have asked a
smaller price, as it was the money I was to get.
1883. If you wanted the money, why did you not, when selling
your shawls to a merchant, ask him for the ready money, and take
1s. or 2s. less?-I don't know. I never thought of that.
1884. Was it not because it was not the practice here to give
money?-Yes; that is the truth.
1885. Of course a shawl which you sold to a stranger in that way
would be one knitted with your own worsted which you had
bought?-Yes.
1886. Do you always pay ready money for your worsted?-
Always.
1887. Do you always buy your worsted from the merchants in
town?-Sometimes; and sometimes, when the country people
come down, they have worsted with them, and I buy it from them
too.
1888. Is the price the same in both cases?-Yes, always.
1889. If you were selling a shawl to a merchant and taking goods,
and if you asked to have part of the goods in worsted, is there any
objection made to that way of dealing?-No; I never heard any
objection made to that.
1890. Did you ever get worsted as part of the goods you received
in payment for your shawls?-Yes.
1891. Often?-Not very often; sometimes.
1892. You never knew of any objection being made to giving you
worsted as part of what you were to get for your shawls?-No.
1893. Or for a line?-No; I never heard any objection.
1894. Do you knit to a large extent?-Yes; knit a good deal
1895. How much will you make in a month or in a week in that
way?-I could not exactly say. It takes a good long time to make a
nice shawl.
1896. Is it mostly shawls you make?-Yes.
1897. Will it take a month to make a shawl which is worth £1?-
Yes. I have other things to do, and cannot keep constantly at it.
1898. But you do make one shawl a month or there about?-Yes.
1899. So that your dealings in that way will come perhaps £12 or
£14 a year?-They will be more than that. I would reckon that
they would be about £15.
1900. Would that all be your own knitting?-I could not say that.
Perhaps I might get some one to help me a little with a shawl.
1901. But it would be mostly your own work?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARGARET OLLASON, examined.
1902. Are you in the habit of knitting for merchants in Lerwick?-
No; I knit for myself, and I sell the goods.
1903. How are you paid for them?-I generally make articles for
which I get an order.
1904. From whom?-From ladies who employ me.
1905. Have you never sold to merchants at all?-I have sometimes
sold to Mr. Sinclair.
1906. When you sell to him, are you paid in money?-I have asked
for part of both-money and goods-and I got it.
1907. You did not ask for the whole in money?-No.
1908. Why?-Just because I thought it was not the custom of the
place.
1909. Did you want the whole in money?-No; I was requiring the
goods at the time.
1910. Does it often happen that you sell articles to Mr. Sinclair in
that way?-Yes; I sold him two shawls lately.
1911. How much of the price did you get in money?-The price of
one of the shawls was 35s., and I got 17s. 6d. in money.
1912. Did you ask for that?-Yes.
1913. And you had no difficulty in getting it?-No. I sold the
other shawl for 28s., and I got 8s. in money and £1 in goods.
1914. That was the arrangement that you wanted yourself?-Yes; I
asked it.
1915. You wanted the goods?-Yes.
1916. Would you have made a better bargain by selling these
shawls to a lady in Lerwick, or to a stranger visiting the place?-I
got much the same price from Mr. Sinclair as I had been in the
habit of getting.
1917. Do you sell to visitors, or to ladies in Lerwick, because you
prefer to do that?-We sell to them because we are not requiring
the goods.
1918. And you prefer to sell to them because you wish to get the
money?-Yes.
1919. Do you live with your friends?-I live with my father.
1920. And you buy your own worsted?-Yes.
1921. Where do you buy it?-I get it from the North Isles,-from
Yell.
1922. You get it from people who make it there?-Yes.
1923. Do you generally knit for ladies who have given you an
order, or do you knit your shawl and then seek for a purchaser?-
Sometimes I get an order for shawl and make it, and at other times
I make one and keep it until I get an order.
1924. Is it considered among you who knit, to be a better way of
living that you knit to ladies than to merchants?-Yes.
1925. Do you ever try to dispose of your shawls to visitors who
come to Shetland in the summer?-No, I never did that, for I
generally get orders for them as soon as I have them ready.
1926. Do you know that it is the practice to look out for visitors
in summer, or to send shawls to places such as hotels or
lodging-houses where they stay, in order to get buyers among
them?-I know that is a common thing, but I have never done it.
1927. Is that done because it is a more profitable way of disposing
of the goods than by selling them to the merchants?-I think that
is the reason.
1928. Or is it done because they get money from the visitors or
strangers?-I believe it is because they get money.
1929. Do you get as large a price from a visitor in money as you
get from a merchant in goods?-Yes.
1930. Do you know that from your own experience?-Yes.
1931. You said you had sold a shawl for 35s. to Mr. Sinclair: if
you had sold that shawl to a visitor, or to a lady in Lerwick, or to a
stranger in the summer time, would you have got 35s. for it?-I
would.
1932. Have you got that price for a shawl exactly the same?-Yes;
I have got it from Dr. Hamilton in Bressay, who was requiring it
for a lady.
1933. You sold another shawl for 28s. Could you have got as high
a price in money from a visitor for it as you got in goods from the
merchant?-Yes.
1934. You don't know that there are two prices for shawls,
according as they are paid in money or in goods?-I don't know
that, for I have not experienced it.
1935. Would you have given either of these two shawls you
mentioned for a lower price if you had got the whole price of it in
money?-No; I don't think [Page 38] I could have done it, for I
thought the shawls were worth the price I put upon them.
1936. Don't you think you could have got a higher price than 35s.
for that shawl from a visitor?-I don't think it.
1937. When you sold the shawl to Mr. Sinclair at that price, you
knew that he was buying it for the purpose of selling it again: was
the price which he gave you not something of a wholesale price?-
It was just the price I would have asked any one for it, because it
was just what I thought it was worth. The price I put upon it was
just sufficient to pay me for my worsted and my work.
1938. But Mr. Sinclair must make his profit off the shawl when he
purchased it in order to be re-sold, so that there may be two prices
in that way: do you know anything about that?-No; I don't know
anything about it.
1939. You thought you ought to get at least 35s. for the shawl, and
you were prepared to take as much more as you could get?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA BOLT, examined.
1940. You are the wife of William Bolt who lives in Lerwick?-
Yes.
1941. Are you in the habit of knitting Mr. Sinclair?-I knit for
myself, but I sell my work to Mr. Sinclair.
1942. You have no pass-book in that way of dealing?-No.
1943. Did you hear Margaret Ollason's evidence?-Yes.
1944. Do you knit the same kind of goods as she does?-No; I
generally knit veils and shawls to Mr. Sinclair.
1945. Do you deal in the same way as she has described?-Yes;
something like the same.
1946. Do you sell to other people than Mr. Sinclair?-No; I
generally sell everything have to him.
1947. When you go to him to sell your work, do you get payment
in money or in goods?-In goods.
1948. Do you prefer that way of dealing; or do you want all
money?-I generally require goods.
1949. Have you a family?-Yes; the goods were wanted for them.
1950. You don't get provisions there: you provide them
otherwise?-Yes.
1951. Do you sometimes ask for money from Mr. Sinclair?-Yes,
I have asked for money, and I got it when I asked it. I have not
sold anything to any other shop for the last fifteen years.
1952. Would you prefer to get money if you could?-I don't know.
If I were getting money, I would just have to buy goods with it, so
that the goods are the same to me as money.
1953. Do you know that any one can get money for their goods if
they want it?-I know there are plenty who get it.
1954. But can any one get whatever money they require for their
goods?-I don't know. I only know that there are many who want
money; but for my own part, I generally ask for goods, and I get
them; and if I require a little money, I always get it.
1955. Do you sometimes get lines?-Yes; and worsted to knit,
which is the same as money.
1956. If you are in want of worsted, do you buy it from Mr.
Sinclair in payment for your shawls?-Yes.
1957. Do you keep any account, or do you just deal across the
counter?-I just get the things as I want them.
1958. You go to the shop and say you want so much worsted as
part of what you are taking?-Yes.
1959. Do you get it at the ordinary price?-Yes; it is just the same
price.
1960. Does your sister-in-law, Mrs. James Bolt, deal in the same
way?-Yes; in the same manner.
1961. And, altogether with Mr. Sinclair?-Yes. We always knit
together, and what hosiery we have we always sell to him.
1962. Do you buy the worsted from Mr. Sinclair exactly in the
same way as you would buy a piece of cotton or a dress?-Yes;
just the same.
1963. The price of the worsted is reckoned up as part of the price
of the shawl that you are selling?-Yes. We get it on a line the
same as the other goods.
1964. Of course: there is no writing: it is just a transaction across
the counter unless there is a line?-Yes.
1965. But if you have a line, and bring it back to the shop in order
to get goods, do you get worsted for it just as you get any other
goods?-Yes; I have got worsted on a line.
1966. Do you know that these transactions are all entered in Mr.
Sinclair's book?-Yes.
1967. You have seen that done?-Yes.
1968. The worsted is entered there as well as the other things?-
Yes.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. WILHELMINA BOLT, examined.
1969. Have you anything different to say about the way in which
you knit and deal in your hosiery business from what you have
heard stated by your sister-in-law?-No; I have nothing more to
say.
1970. You agree with her in everything?-Yes.
1971. And there is no difference or addition that you can state?-
No.
1972. Have you asked for money and got all you wanted?-Yes; I
never asked for money and did not get it. When I had a line from
Mr. Sinclair, I just got the same goods from him upon it as I would
have got for money.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MRS HELEN FLAUS, examined.
1973. Are you a dresser in Lerwick?-I dress a little and I knit a
little.
1974. Did you hear the evidence which Mrs. Arcus gave to-day?-
Yes.
1975. Do you do business in the same way that she described?-
Much the same.
1976. Do you dress shawls for some of the knitters in Lerwick?-
Yes.
1977. And you take ready money for that?-Yes.
1978. Do they sell the shawls direct to the merchants
themselves?-Yes.
1979. Do you also dress shawls for knitters from the country?-
Yes.
1980. Do you sell these shawls, or do you return them to the girls
who bring them to you?-I sometimes sell them, and sometimes
they sell them.
1981. When you sell them to the merchants, do you get ready
money or lines, or do you get goods for the girls?-I get lines from
those merchants who give lines, and those who give no lines mark
them down in their books.
1982. Who gives you the lines?-Mr. Sinclair. Mr. Laurenson
generally is the only other merchant I sell to and he marks them
down in his own book. He does not give lines.
1983. You don't sell to any of the other merchants?-Sometimes I
do.
1984. Do you sell to Mr. Johnston?-Not very much.
1985. Does he give you a line when you sell to him for a country
girl?-Yes.
1986. Do you sell to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, occasionally. He does
not give lines; he marks the articles down in his book.
[Page 39]
1987. How does he know the girl for whom the shawl has been
sold, when he only marks it in the book?-I give in the girl's name
to him, and she goes and asks for the amount that is marked in her
name, and gets it.
1988. If she knows the amount?-I tell her the amount.
1989. Then she knows the amount, and that is sufficient to identify
her?-Yes.
1990. Do these country girls sometimes ask you to get money for
them rather than goods?-No; they have never asked me to do
that.
1991. Do they sometimes get part of their payment in money?-I
cannot tell about that. They always get a line from me, and I
cannot tell how the merchants and they settle.
1992. Do you know whether lines are sometimes given for the
goods which are sold by the knitters in town?-I cannot say
anything about that.
1993. Or which are sold by yourself?-No; I don't know anything
about that myself.
1994. You never took lines for the shawls you knitted yourself?-
No; not for my own goods.
1995. Do you sometimes sell to strangers, or to people who are not
in the trade?-No; I have never done that.
1996. I suppose you meet with people who knit a good deal, and
have a number of transactions with them?-Yes.
1997. Do you know whether they prefer to sell to strangers, or to
merchants in town?-Sometimes they require money, and at other
times they require goods as well as money; and they would then
just as well have the goods as the money.
1998. But if they want the money, can they not have it from the
merchants if they ask for it?-I always got it when I asked it. For
any others, I cannot say.
1999. Do you dress goods for any of the merchants?-No.
2000. Only for the knitters?-Yes.
2001. You are never employed by the merchants at all?-No.
2002. Can you tell me; why there is not a system of paying always
in money for the hosiery?-Because it has not been a customary
thing, and they never ask it.
2003. Would it not be just as convenient for all parties to pay in
money?-I don't think it. I think we may just as well have the
goods.
2004. But if you had the money, it would be better for the knitters,
would it not; because they could buy what goods they wanted?
They might have to hand the money back across the counter, but
they would be able to make their own bargain for what they
bought?-Yes; but they would get a less price for their shawls.
2005. How do you know that?-It is so stated.
2006. Who states it?-They generally say that if they get money,
they will not get so much as in goods.
2007. Do you mean that the merchants say that?-Yes; when we
sell shawls for money, they say they will not give so much for
them in money as in goods.
2008. Who has told you that?-The merchants.
2009. Has that often been said to you?-Not often; but it has been
said.
2011. Who has said it?-Mr. Sinclair: I sold shawl to him last
night.
2012. And he told you last night that he would give you more in
goods for it than he would give in money?-Yes, than he could
give in money.
2013. What was the price of that shawl?-I got 15s. for it.
2014. Did you take that in goods?-Yes.
2015. Or in a line?-In goods.
2016. In goods that you took away at the time?-Yes.
2017. What would you have got if you had sold your shawl for
money?-I cannot exactly say. He did not particularize that.
2018. You did not go into particulars, because you wanted the
goods?-Yes.
2019. Do you sometimes sell goods that you get from the
merchants?-No; for I always require them for myself.
2020. Is it the practice for some of the knitters to sell the goods
they get?-I cannot say; I never saw it done.
2021. You never bought any goods from a knitter which she had
got in that way?-No, never.
2022. You are always paid in cash for your own dressing?-Yes.
2023. Do you think the knitters generally would be content with
lower prices if they got paid in cash?-I cannot speak for any one
but myself.
2024. You don't know the feelings of the girls deal with you from
the town?-I do not.
2025. Do you know how most of these girls are provided with their
food?-I cannot say. Occasionally the girls don't require money.
2026. Is it not the case that a number of single women live in
rooms in and knit for a living?-I cannot say, because I am not
much acquainted through the place.
2027. You do not know the private circumstances of your
customers?-I do not.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA MOUAT, examined.
2028. Where do you live?-I live in Girlsta, parish of Tingwall.
2029. Are you a married woman?-Yes
2030. Is your husband alive?-Yes, he is at Leith; but I have had
nothing from him for five years. I live by my own knitting; and
that is what has made me so anxious to come here.
2031 Have you any family?-I have only one son. He is sailing
out of Leith.
2032. Do you knit with your own wool?-Yes.
2033. Where do you buy it?-I buy it mostly from my friends-
some of it from my brother.
2034. Is your brother a farmer near where you live?-Yes.
2035. Do you pay him for the wool?-Yes.
2036. To whom do you sell your hosiery goods?-I always sold
them to Mr. Spence before he went away. I made fancy stockings
and knitted gloves, and things of that kind.
2037. You don't knit the fine hosiery; it is all stockings and gloves
and mittens you do?-Yes, and men's frocks. I made them for Mr.
Spence, but since he went away I have been very poorly off.
2038. He was a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
2039. Did he keep a shop here?-Yes.
2040. The same kind of shop as is kept by Mr. Sinclair and Mr.
Linklater?-No. He had not so much goods in his shop, as Mr.
Sinclair has, but he sometimes gave me money when I wanted it-
either money or goods.
2041. Does his sister carry on the business for him now?-Yes.
2042. Do you sell to her?-No; she is not buying anything.
2043. How were you paid for your goods?-Just middling.
2044. Were you paid in money or in goods?-Either in money or
goods.
2045. If you brought a lot of articles: and asked Mr. Spence to buy
them, he would fix a price; and if the price suited you, you gave
him the articles?-Yes.
2046. Did he pay you money across the counter?-Yes.
2047. Were you ever obliged to take goods from him?-Yes; many
a time.
[Page 40]
2048. Did he tell you he would not give you money?-No; he did
not say that.
2049. What did he say?-He just gave me anything I wanted-
sometimes money and sometimes goods.
2050. He never told you that he did not want to give you
money?-Sometimes he did so. Sometimes he was very unwilling
to give money, but he did give it.
2051. Was that pretty often?-No; not very often. My articles
were always good.
2052. Did you sometimes ask him to give you money when you
did not get it?-Yes.
2053. Is it long since he left the business?-I have never sold
anything to him since the month of July.
2054. Who do you sell to now?-I have sent what articles I have
made since to my son in the south, and he has sold them in Leith.
2055. Do you get as good a price for them there as you used to get
from Mr. Spence?-No.
2056. But your son sends you money for the goods you send to
him?-Yes; he always sends me money, and his shipmates buy
what I make.
2057. Do many women knit that sort of goods that you deal in-
stockings and gloves?-A great many.
2058. Is it mostly that kind of knitting that is carried on in your
part of the country at Girlsta?-Yes.
2059. They don't knit fine work there?-No.
2060. Who buys the sort of work they make?-Most of the
merchants do so.
2061. Do the people in your part of the country generally get
payment in goods?-Yes.
2062. Or in money?-No; they never ask for money.
2063. Why?-Because the country people are not needing it.
2064. Do they not need money?-Yes they need money; but when
they get the goods the same they always ask the goods.
2065. You think there would no use getting money for your
knitting, and just handing it back across the counter the next
minute for goods?-I suppose that is what they think; but they
would be better if they could get the money.
2066. Can they not get it?-Not very well.
2067. Why?-Because the merchants are not willing to give it.
2068. I thought you said the country people did not get money
because they did not want it?-Well, sometimes there is no use of
them getting it, and giving it back again to the merchant they are
dealing with; they might just as well have the goods, because they
have plenty of meal and other things to serve their ends, and they
are not like us, who have to buy everything. We would be glad of
the money sometimes to buy things that the merchant does not
have, or to pay our rent with; but the country people have plenty of
these things, and it is only goods they are wanting, and that is the
reason why they take them.
2069. Then you have no reason to complain of this system of
paying in goods?-We have to complain of it many a time.
2070. Why do you complain?-Because if we had money it could
answer for other things, and in other ways than when we get
goods; but we cannot get it.
2071. Is it a common subject of complaint in the country, that you
cannot get money?-It is every one's complaint; and when we
get articles, we are sorry to have to part with them for perhaps
half-price.
2072. Do you sometimes sell the articles which you get at the
shops?-Yes. I am in the habit of making very good things, and I
am very sorry sometimes that I have to give them away at so low a
price.
2073. But suppose you come into town and get goods in return for
your knitting, have you sometimes to sell these goods again?-No;
I have not done that.
2074. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No.
Lerwick, January 3, 1872, MARY ANN SINCLAIR, examined.
2075. You knit for Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.
2076. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.
2077. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.
2078. You just settle for the work as you take it back each time?-
Yes.
2079. Are you generally paid in money or in goods?-Part in both.
2080. Do you knit shawls or veils?-Mostly veils.
2081. How many veils will you take to him in a week?-I could
not exactly say. There are four of us besides me.
2082. Do you all knit for Mr. Sinclair?-There is one who knits
besides me, and another dresses.
2083. Does she dress only your own knitting, or does she take in
other people's knitting to dress too?-She dresses what she gets to
do for other people.
2084. Does she do a good deal in that way for other people?-Yes.
2085. You cannot tell me how many veils you take: to Mr. Sinclair
in a week?-We might do three in week, each of us, if we were
able to work constantly at it.
2086. Do you work at anything else?-Nothing else-only veils;
but we are so often in trouble, that I could hardly tell you how
many we do in a week. There are three sisters and one brother of
us alive now: my father and mother are dead.
2087. Is your brother a fisherman?-No; he is in a shop.
2088. You are not a married woman?-No.
2089. How much will you get for your veils when you take a lot of
them to Mr. Sinclair? Are they sold at 1s. each?-It is generally
very fine veils that we knit, and we get 1s. 6d. each for them.
2090. How many do you take at a time to the shop?-Perhaps a
dozen, or perhaps two dozen.
2091. If you take a dozen, that would be 18s. worth?-Yes.
2092. How much of that will you get in money?-Our rent is paid
from the knitting. That, of course, is money.
2093. You have to get as much as will pay your rent?-Yes.
2094. How do you get your provisions?-We get money whenever
we ask it, besides what is taken for our rent.
2095. Are you tenants of Mr Sinclair?-Yes.
2096. You have a house from him, and he keeps your rent off what
you have to get for your knitting?-Yes; and we have sometimes
to get as high as 5s. a week from him, and we always get it.
2097. That is, for your living?-Yes.
2098. Do you get as much money in payment for your veils as you
require?-Yes; as much as we ask for.
2099. Will you manage to take a dozen veils to him in the course
of a fortnight?-Yes; or perhaps a dozen in three weeks.
2100. You are speaking both of your sisters and yourself?-Yes.
2101. How much of that 18s. as a general thing, will you get in
money?-I can hardly say. If we were to ask money weekly we
would get it: but since our brother's wages were raised, we have
not asked so often for money.
2102. That is to say, you have spent more of the produce of your
knitting in goods-in clothing?-Yes.
2103. Have you ever had to sell any of the goods that you got at
the shop?-No.
2104. Or tea?-No.
2105. You don't knit any for selling, and you never did?-No.
2106. Do you think you would be any better off if you got all the
price of your knitting in money?-I don't think it, because if I got
it in money I would just lay it down on the counter and get goods
for it.
2107. That is to say, you would get the same quantity of goods that
you get now?-Yes. Of course I would not take the money and go
to another shop with it.
[Page 41]
2108. Mr. Sinclair recommended you to come here today?-Yes;
he said he thought I should come.
2109. How much did you get for knitting your last shawl?-I think
we got £2, 10s. for our last shawl. [<Mr. Sinclair>, £2, 15s.] Yes,
it was £2, 15s.
2110. That was a remarkably large one, I suppose?-Yes it was
very fine.
2111. It was knitted by you and your sisters?-Yes.
2112. How long ago was that?-It was in the month of April or
May, I think.
2113. How much of that did you get in money?-It was just
marked in to our account, and we got the money as we asked for it.
2114. You did not tell me before that was the way in which you
dealt?-I thought I did. You asked me if I had a pass-book, and I
said it was just marked into the book.
2115. I rather understood that a settlement was made with you
each time you took in your work?-No, we have an account.
2116. And that £2, 15s. was marked into it?-Yes.
2117. You did not take any goods at that time?-I hardly think it;
but I really forget.
2118. Did you get any money at that time?-I don't think it.
2119. Did you ask for money?-No; and it was merely because I
did not ask for it that I did not get it.
<Adjourned>.
Lerwick: Thursday, January 4, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
ARTHUR LAURENSON, examined.
2120. You are a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., Shetland
warehousemen and clothiers in Lerwick?-I am.
2121. That is the oldest house in that business in Shetland, is it
not?-I believe it is.
2122. The other partner of the house is your brother-in-law, Mr.
William Bruce Tulloch?-Yes.
2123. You succeeded your father in the business?-Yes. I was in
business with him for a good many years before his death.
2124. Besides carrying on that business, you also act as a trustee or
factor?-Yes; in bankruptcies. I am also treasurer for the Shetland
Widows' Fund under Anderson's Trust.
2125. And in that capacity you have the management of a
considerable income to be devoted to charitable purposes?-Yes; I
am a member of the local committee. There are three other
gentlemen on the committee. And I am also treasurer, and have
been so for a long time. I was appointed by Mr. Anderson in his
lifetime, and I have always been so since.
2126. In the Shetland hosiery business you get the goods from the
women knitters, who I believe are of two classes: those who knit
for you, and those who sell to you?-Yes. There are those who
bring the article and just exchange it over the counter. The greater
part of our business now consists in the exchanging of goods,
rather than in the employing of women to knit for us. Some years
ago we were more in that way than we are now. Our principal
business now just consists in buying their own productions, or
rather, I should say, in the exchanging of them.
2127. By using the word exchanging, what is it that you mean to
imply?-I mean to make a difference between that and buying for
actual cash. If I were using the word, buying, it might convey the
idea that we pay cash down. When I say exchanging, I mean that
they bring us the article, and we give them other articles in
exchange for it.
2128. By that you mean to imply that the transaction is understood
as a barter?-Precisely.
2129. What is the character of the stock that you keep?-Drapery
articles altogether, and general soft goods. The only grocery goods
we keep are tea and soap.
2130. And the exchanges which you make with your customers for
their hosiery are of drapery goods, tea, and soap?-Yes.
2131. Are these purchases made chiefly from women who live in
Lerwick, or from women who come from the country?-Part of
both. We deal principally with women from the country. The
Lerwick women only make fine goods, such as shawls and veils, as
a rule, although some of them do make underclothing too.
2132. That practice of barter has, I understand, been of long
continuance in Shetland?-Long before my memory. I suppose, as
Mr. Walker humorously remarked in his evidence, it has probably
prevailed since the days of Adam.
2133. Is any proportion of the payment now made in cash?-
Sometimes it is; and that custom, I think, is a growing one. When
I first came into the business with my father, it was, I may say, an
unheard of thing to give any cash at all,-such a thing was not
thought of or expected by the women; but now for a good many
years-I should say for ten or twelve years-the custom has begun
to give a certain portion of the price in cash, and it seems to be
gradually increasing,-that is to say, each year we are paying more
in cash than we did in the previous year.
2134. Is that because more cash is asked?-Perhaps it may be, and
it may also be from a greater readiness on the part of the dealers to
give it. I don't mean to say, by any means, that it is the rule to
make cash payments; but I say that the custom of making
occasional cash payments, at any rate, is getting more common.
2135. Are you speaking from your experience your own business,
or do you speak generally?-I am speaking of my own experience,
but I presume that will be the experience of others in the trade as
well.
2136. Formerly people did not use to ask for money at all?-No.
When I went first into the business it was never thought of.
2137. At that time was the trade one of purchase, or was it one of
manufacturing for the merchant?-I think it was pure barter.
2138. It was barter in either case, but was the trade usually carried
on by purchases from people who knitted their own wool?-I
think in former times it was altogether that. It is only within the
last twenty or thirty years that the women have been employed, so
to speak, by the merchants. It was about 1840 or 1841 that the
making of shawls began to get very common here; and about 1845
or 1846 there was a very great demand for them. After that the
veil knitting commenced, about 1848 or 1849, and from 1852 to
1856 there was a very great trade done in veils. These are the
dates, so far as I recollect them.
2139. Shawls and veils are the staple articles of the Lerwick
women's manufacture?-Yes; and they also make country hosiery
of different sorts.
2140. That is the coarser hosiery?-Not necessarily coarser, but
stockings and fine underclothing for both ladies' and gentlemen's
wear.
2141. Under the description of shawls I suppose you include the
cloaks which are made?-Yes; opera-[Page 42] cloaks, mantles,
and squares. There is a great variety of them made, in different
styles.
2142. At present are you in the habit of giving cash whenever it is
asked?-I am.
2143. Do you remember, during the last few years, of having
refused to give money to any person who asked for it?-I have no
recollection of doing so for a good many years back.
2144. Have the people in your shop any instructions on that
point?-My assistants would not give cash without coming to me,
because such a transaction has to be entered in the cash-book. If
there was any cash to be paid, they would come to me for it, so
that I might enter it. It would not be paid out of the ordinary
shop-till, because we have to keep an account of it.
2145. But they would be at liberty to purchase hosiery and pay for
it in goods without consulting you?-Either my brother-in-law or
myself would fix the prices.
2146. Then none of your people have authority to purchase?-
No; they would not purchase without consulting me or my
brother-in-law.
2147. So that either of the partners must be in the shop, or must be
consulted in every case of purchase?-Yes.
2148. Do you give the same answer with regard to cases in which
parties employed by you are returning their work?-Perhaps any
small sums of money, such as 6d. or 1s., they might get in my
absence; but if it was anything larger that was desired, they would
be asked to wait until either I or my brother-in-law came in.
2149. But in that case, if they wanted to take out the whole value
of the article, they might get it in goods, in the absence of you and
your brother-in-law?-Yes, they might.
2150. Does it depend upon the state of their account, whether they
would get the whole value in goods or not?-No. Most of them
have been long known to us, and even if they were in debt (which
sometimes happens) to a small amount, it would not matter much,
if they wanted anything. I may mention, as an instance illustrating
that, that last night a girl called and asked me for some money to
pay the police assessment which had been charged upon her father.
She said her father was not able to pay it, and they had no money
in the house, and she asked for money to pay it with. Money is
often wanted in that way, and of course I gave it to her.
2151. Had she a pass-book with her?-No; she just came in with a
small article of fancy knitting which she wanted to sell, and she
sold it and got the cash for it.
2152. Did she get the full price in cash?-Yes. She told me what
she wanted the money for. Of course I did not ask her or insist to
know what the money was for, but she mentioned it incidentally.
2153. How much was the price of that article?-It was a small
thing, 8s.-a pair of lace sleeves for ladies' under-dresses.
2154. Would you say that that was a transaction of a very usual
kind?-No; I should not say it was very usual.
2155. But if that had been asked at any time during the last three
or four years, would the same result have followed? Would she
have got the money?-I think so, with me, if the request had come
from the same person, or from a person who had been long
employed by us.
2156. That case you have mentioned was one of sale?-Yes.
2157. It was an article made with her own material?-Yes; it was
her own material and her own article altogether. I have just
mentioned it, as the latest thing of the kind that has occurred.
2158. Do you know a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the
Asylum?-I think there are two Mrs. Williamsons in the Asylum:
there is a Mrs. Williamson who has been there since the Asylum
was opened, and there is another who has come there quite lately,
within the last twelve months. If the question you are to put has
anything to do with knitting, it will probably refer the last one.
The first Mrs, Williamson is in very good circumstances, and I
don't think she would be employing herself in that way.
2159. I speak of one who knits with her own wool, and knits fine
articles.-I am sure to know her if she is an inmate of the Asylum,
though I could not just identify her at present.
2160. Then you don't know whether she knits to you?-She does
not knit to me.
2161. Or sells goods to you?-She may come into the shop to sell
goods as any other woman does, but I have no recollection of
anything of the kind.
2162. Is there another Mr. Laurenson in Lerwick?-There is a firm
of R.B. Laurence & Co.
2163. Do they sell provisions?-I don't know.
2164. Do you sell bread?-I sell nothing except general drapery
stock, and the other articles I have mentioned. There is a Mr.
Laurence, a baker, and his sons are the firm of R. B. Laurence &
Co.
2165. Does Mr. Laurence buy hosiery?-Not so far as I am aware.
He was in business as a hosier some years ago but he is now only a
grocer and baker.
2166. Did you buy a shawl for 80s., about three months ago, from
a Mrs. Williamson who lives at the Asylum?-Not to my
recollection. If there is anything particular about the transaction,
that might enable me to remember it.
2167. You did not purchase such a shawl, and pay part of the price
in bread?-No; I could not have done that. I may mention that the
name of the firm of R. B. Laurence & Co. is generally pronounced
by the people here in the same way as my own, they speak of them
as Laurenson, although their names are Laurence.
2168. Have you sometimes paid large sums in cash for shawls?-
Very often, in separate transactions. I have frequently paid cash
down for particular shawls worth £2 or £2, 10s. I have given as
much as £5 in cash for a single shawl; but that, of course, was very
special article.
2169. Would you make any objection to paying so much in
cash?-No; but I would be pretty sure the article was worth it.
2170. In the case you have just now referred to, was it necessary
for the woman to make any particular representation as to her
wanting the cash before she could get it, or was she asked to take
the price in goods?-No; I did not ask her to do that. Probably
when she produced the article, she said she wished to sell it for
cash, and so the price was fixed.
2171. Does a demand of that kind for payment in cash affect the
price for the shawl?-Certainly. We could not give so much in
cash as we could give in goods; and if a cash tariff were adopted,
there would have to be a general deduction made all round-a
deduction equivalent to the ordinary retail profit in the drapery
trade.
2172. Do the sellers of these hosiery goods to you understand that
if they demand cash they must take a smaller price?-Yes, they
understand that; and they would be quite prepared to take it.
2173. Is it quite understood that there are two prices for these
articles-a cash price, and a price in goods?-Yes; I think that is
quite understood. Of course, if a woman comes in with a shawl
for which she is willing to take 20s. in goods, she would be equally
willing to take 16s. or 17s. in cash, because the difference between
the 16s. or 17s. in cash and the 20s. in goods represents the retail
draper's profit, which is supposed to run from 15 to 20 or 25 per
cent. on these articles. That is the case over all the kingdom.
2174. Would not the result to the woman be, that if she took the
17s. in cash she would only be able to buy 17s. worth of goods
with it?-Well, that is true; but she might be requiring grocery
goods or meal, or some kind of articles that we don't keep in our
drapery shops. Of course there would be an advantage to her,
because she might be requiring the cash in order to help her in
paying her rent, or anything of that kind.
2175. In that way, does it not come to be a disadvantage to the
women to take cash?-It cannot be a disadvantage if they require
it for these other purposes. [Page 43] It would not answer them at
all times to get drapery goods.
2176. Is it an advantage to you, as a dealer in hosiery, to pay the
price of the hosiery in goods?-Of course it is an advantage to us,
as retail drapers, to sell as much of these goods as possible.
2177. But is it any advantage to you, if by buying for cash you are
to get the same profit upon your hosiery goods on a re-sale of
them?-There is this to be considered: that if we were buying for
cash exclusively, then we would only buy such things as we were
actually requiring, either for orders which we had, or which we
thought were likely to sell; but according to the present system,
although I don't mean to defend it altogether, we might have a
pretty large stock, and have really no orders, and no immediate
prospect of selling them. At the same time, so long as it is a
system of barter or exchange, we can quite easily give goods of
one description over the counter in exchange for goods of another
description,-for this reason, that these goods of another
description, which are received in exchange, can be stored by us as
well as our drapery goods. At such times we would not be willing
to pay anything in cash.
2178. Then what you mean to say is, that the opportunity of selling
your drapery goods is an inducement to you to increase your stock
of hosiery although the market may be unfavourable?-Exactly;
because we have already invested our cash in these drapery goods,
and we may just as well have that cash lying in Shetland hosiery as
in drapery goods, in many cases.
2179. If you did not pay in goods, would the result be that you
might still purchase the hosiery, but at a much lower rate?-That
would be one result of it; and another result would be, that when
the Shetland hosiery trade was dead, as it very often is for many
months, we would have then to give up buying altogether. At the
same time, I don't say but what an entirely cash system would
ultimately be advantageous to both parties,-both to us as dealers,
and also to the women knitters.
2180. In what way do you think that that?-I think it would
simplify the thing, and prevent a good many disagreeable
occurrences. In fact the present system is a complicated,
antiquated sort of thing; and I, for my own part, would be willing
if some plan could be adopted for introducing a cash system
altogether. It certainly would be simpler, and I have no doubt it
would ultimately come to be as convenient to us all; but you will
please to observe that the present system is just a continuance of
an old traditional system that we who are now in the trade found
existing when we came into it, and it is rather difficult to get it
changed.
2181. Do you think it is any advantage for the women to be able to
get 20s. in goods rather than 16s. of cash?-It think it would be
better for the women to be always paid in cash.
2182. For what reason?-Because they would then have the cash
at their own disposal, and they could do with it what they liked.
They might buy their goods from me or from any other body, just
as they pleased.
2183. Do you think they could manage their cash better?-I don't
know, but at any rate they would be more independent. If they did
not choose to deal with me, they could go to any other shop where
they thought they could lay it out to better advantage.
2184. Is it the fact that they cannot get the price of their goods in
cash just now?-I believe, as a general rule, that is quite true. I
have heard the evidence of two or three of the girls who have been
examined on previous days with regard to that.
2185. I am speaking now entirely of the purchase system. I will
ask you something afterwards with regard to the system of knitting
with the merchants' own wool; but you understand that you have
hitherto been speaking about the system of purchasing?-Yes;
hitherto I have been referring to the exchange of articles over the
counter.
2186. Your general observations have applied to both systems?-
Yes, to both.
2187. Speaking then, in the meantime, about the purchase system,
there is now in point of fact a difficulty in getting cash?-There is
no doubt of that, because it is the custom of the trade, and has all
along been, that these hosiery articles should be paid for in goods.
That is known and understood on both sides.
2188. Will you tell me exactly where the advantage to the woman
lies who sells her hosiery for 20s. in goods rather than for 16s. in
cash? Are these 20s. of goods worth more to her than 16s. in cash
would be-I mean, apart altogether from the question as to
whether she wants other goods than hosiery?-Is the money value
of the 20s. worth of goods greater than 16s. in cash?-The money
value of them cannot be greater, because the retail profit is
included in that.
2189. Yes, but the money value to you is one thing, and the money
value to the woman may be another?-I assume, as a general rule,
that all the goods which the women take they are actually
requiring.
2190. Is that the fact?-I heard some statements made here by
some witnesses yesterday, and I suppose they were quite correct,
since the women made them, but I was not aware of it before, that
they had to take goods and re-sell them afterwards.
2191. You were not previously aware of the existence of such a
practice?-No; I was not aware of it until I heard it deponed to
yesterday.
2192. You say there are periods of depression in the Shetland
trade?-Yes; for many months there is little or no demand for
Shetland goods, and at such times our stocks lie over and
accumulate.
2193. In such a period of depression I presume that your prices,
whether in money or in goods, are lower than at other times?-
They naturally tend downwards, as in all other trades, because in
many cases we really don't want the goods. Having quite
sufficient and more than sufficient of the article, we don't want
any more of them; but very often we take them, just as you may
say, to oblige the women, and give them tea for them, or things
which they may actually be requiring, although we may have no
prospect of selling these articles for a year or so.
2194. Is there not a difficulty in the trade also from the nature of
the articles which are made?-There is a very great difficulty in
that respect, owing to the want of uniformity in the articles, and
the great variety of them. You can never get two shawls alike; you
cannot even get a dozen pair of half-stockings alike. If you were
to get an order for twenty dozen socks of a particular colour, size,
and price, you would not be able to get that number of socks alike
in Shetland.
2195. The result of that is, that you cannot give a large order?-
We cannot undertake to execute it; and it is only such houses in
the south as are acquainted with the Shetland trade, and who know
that, when they give an order for a certain quantity of goods, they
must get them varied in colour and in quality, and who make up
their minds for that, and don't expect anything else it is such
houses who generally deal in Shetland goods.
2196. Does that fact, and the want of knowledge of that fact,
restrict the number of houses in the south with which you can
deal?-There is no doubt of it. Suppose an English house, who
had never done anything in Shetland goods before, were to send
down an order for a certain quantity of goods, they would expect
to get them as uniform as if they were sending that order to
Leicester, or any hosiery district in the south.
2197. In what way does that affect the system of paying in
goods?-There are limits to the demand. It affects the market.
We don't have such a large market.
2198. And it increases the inducement to merchants to make their
payments in the drapery goods which they sell, and upon which
they have another profit?-Exactly.
2199. I suppose the reason for paying in goods is really, that you
manage to make two profits: the profit upon the drapery, and then
the profit upon the re-sale of the hosiery?-For the most part, we
have to be content with one profit. No doubt, like all other men,
we would be glad to make two profits if we could; but I think it is
a rule in the Shetland hosiery trade, that [Page 44] the dealer is
quite content if he gets the price for the hosiery goods which he
would have paid for them in cash, even with a very good discount
off; that is to say, with £10 worth of Shetland hosiery, for which he
had paid that sum in goods, he would be willing to sell them for
£10 in cash, and 5 per cent. off for cash. He would not expect to
get a profit on the hosiery also.
2200. Do you mean to say that a lot of hosiery purchased for £10
you would sell to a merchant in the south for £10, and give him 5
per cent. discount besides?-Yes.
2201. Then you would make a loss?-No; because we have paid
the £10 in goods at retail prices, and we have the retail profit on
them, which is more that 5 per cent.
2202. You mean that you have a profit on the goods?-Yes; the
goods amounting to £10, for which we have got the hosiery.
Perhaps the profit on these goods is 15 per cent.; and if we sell the
hosiery afterwards for £10, and take off 5 per cent. for cash, we
still have 10 per cent. for our trouble.
2203. That comes to this: that, keeping it apart from your trade in
goods, you make no profit upon the hosiery at all, but you will pay
5 per cent. discount to a wholesale merchant in the south for
paying it promptly?-Yes; and I believe, in some cases where the
dealers in Shetland don't have good connections in the south and
good markets, they generally sell at a much lower price. I believe
it is quite common in the Edinburgh auction-rooms for parcels of
Shetland hosiery to be exposed for sale, and sold at a rate much
lower than they could be sold for in Shetland. That, I suppose, is
done by dealers who are pressed for cash; and they have to sell
their hosiery stocks at any sacrifice, at what they can get for them,
because they cannot get them sold in the regular market at a profit.
2204. Does it not seem to you that it would be a more reasonable
way, in such a state of matters, to reduce the price of your
hosiery?-It would be better to introduce a system of cash
payments.
2205. But, whether there was a system of cash payments or of
payment in goods, would it not look better in your books, and
would it not be the natural way of dealing, to purchase the hosiery
only at such figures as would enable you to make a profit upon
it?-Yes; that would be better, decidedly. It might practically
make very little difference to the dealer; it would just be taking it
out of the one pocket and putting it into the other, but it would be
more business-like, and a simpler plan.
2206. Is it not one result of that system, that as the merchant runs
two risks,-a risk upon the hosiery and a risk (not so great, but still
a risk) upon his goods,-he is obliged to make a larger profit upon
his goods than he otherwise would?-I believe that is so.
2207. So that the goods are really dearer to the retail purchaser
here than they would be if another system were adopted?-I think
2208. You say you are quite ready to adopt a system of cash
payments, and to carry it out if it were usual in the trade?-Quite
ready.
2209. Is there any difficulty in a single house proceeding to act
upon that system?-There has been no proposal made for it.
2210. Do you mean there has been no demand made for it by the
sellers of hosiery?-I mean there has been no proposal made
among the dealers in hosiery to adopt such a system; and it would
be difficult for one house to begin to attempt it unless there was
some plan agreed upon, and some tariff of prices. I think it would
be necessary, in the first place, to have some scale fixed.
2211. Would the market not fix the prices just as it does in other
trades?-By and by I have no doubt it would; but what I mean is,
that at the beginning of the new plan, in the transition between the
present state and a new system of cash payments there would
require to be some sort of agreement.
2212. With regard to those women whom you pay for working, do
you generally keep pass-books with them?-I don't think many of
them have them now. In fact, within the last seven years we have
not been very much in that branch of the Shetland hosiery trade.
We still have a few knitting to us in that way, and I think some of
them have pass-books.
2213. How many women do you employ in that way?-I could not
say precisely, because for several years our shop-woman has
attended to that altogether, and the books which I have brought
with me are kept by her. I can give her name, and she will be able
to give any information that may be wanted on that subject.
2214. What is her name?-Andrina Aitken.
2215. I suppose your books will show at once the number of
people you employ in that way?-Yes, these books will show, but
I cannot say from memory how many there are.
2216. Has not each woman whom you so employ a page in the
ledger?-I think, for the most part, they just settle for each article
as they bring it. If a girl or woman is knitting a shawl, she comes
in with it; there is a price put upon it, and she settles up there and
then for it. If there is a balance, whether for or against her, it is
noted up as at that date. We don't keep long accounts with them.
2217. How is it noted?-It is noted in the book at the place where
the work is marked as having been given out. The balance is
stated there [produces book].
2218. What is that book?-We call it a work-book.
2219. Is it kept as a day-book from day to day?-Yes.
2220. Is that the only book you keep?-It is the only book used for
that purpose.
2221. Therefore you keep accounts, because when a balance
stands against a woman you have to look back to where the
balance is?-Yes; and where work is given out again, the balance
is marked against her, that balance being agreed upon between the
shop-woman and her.
2222. Is there any index to the names of the women in that
book?-No; the girl knows them all.
2223. I see that the entries on two pages of it serve for a month?-
Yes; the entries from December 5 to January 2 are all on two
pages. These contain all our transactions with that sort of people,
and it shows that we have very few of them.
2224. I see here an entry: 'December 5-Barbara Hunter, 11/4 oz.
black mohair. D. 1s.-retd.' Will you explain that entry?-D.
means debtor. It means that the woman got supplies to the extent
of 1s. The 11/4 oz. black mohair was the worsted which she got at
that time to knit up. Then on the 21st she comes back and returns
it. At that time there is this entry: December 21-Barbara Hunter,
11/4 oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 6d.
2225. What does 'retd.' mean in the first entry?-It means that the
work was returned on a certain day. The return would be made on
the 21st, when she got out the same quantity of additional stuff,
and then the balance is carried forward.
2226. Are there any entries in your books showing how the D. 1s.
or the D. 1s. 4d. was made up?-No; I could not even tell what it
was for.
2227. But it was a balance upon goods supplied to her?-Yes. It
may have been tea, or some small sums of cash, or anything. Our
shop-girl would go over it with her, and they would agree upon it
that this was the balance due at that time; and then, when she came
back with the work she had got out on the 21st, there would be
another balance.
2228. Here is another entry: 'December 15-Christina Sinclair, 2
oz. black mohair. D. 1s. 4d., D. 13s. 3d., D. 5s. 1d.-retd.' How
does it happen that, under the same entry and in the same line,
there are three separate sums?-The girl came on separate
occasions and got these supplies, and they have been, entered
separately. She has been back since then, because the work which
she got out at that time has been returned.
2229. Then follows the entry: 'December 26 [Page 45]-Christian
Sinclair, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 10d. (in pencil), D. 11s. 11d.'
The 11s. 11d. would be the balance on the previous three debtor
entries, and the 10d., I suppose, had been got subsequently?-I
presume it had been quarter it pound of tea for 10d. Christina
Sinclair lives in Hancliffe Lane.
2230. Does she support herself entirely by knitting?-She lives
with her father. She knits a good deal on her own account, and
comes and sells it to us. These had been some veils and other
things, which she makes for us occasionally when she happens not
to have worsted of her own.
2231. The 11s. 11d., I think you say, shows a balance upon goods
got by her?-Yes; I presume it is the balance, after deducting what
she got for that work.
2232. What would she probably get for the work bestowed by her
upon 2 oz. black mohair?-I suppose that would make four or five
veils. Perhaps she might get 5s. Then, besides these little things
which are entered there, she might have got some things when she
was personally present, and the last balance would be struck upon
the whole.
2233. I understand you to state quite distinctly that this book is the
only one in which entries are made of any transactions with
workers employed by you?-The only one. As I said before, we
do very little in that way now; and this represents the whole of it.
2234. Do your sales to these women not appear in your shop
day-book?-No; these are the whole entries. If they get anything
when they come with their work, there is no entry made of it at all.
2235. If a woman, either a knitter employed by you, or one who
sells to you, comes to your shop and has a large sum of money to
get, is it the practice that you do not pay her entirely in goods, but
give her an advance in cash; or is it sometimes your practice to
give her a line?-We don't give lines at all; but I may say that it is
very seldom any of them have very much to get.
2236. If a woman has something to get and does not want goods,
do you make an entry of any kind to her credit similar to those
debtor entries against her?-I see here an entry: 'December 26-
Ann Anderson, 2 oz. black mohair. D. 5d., Cr. 7s. 6d.' That 5d.
has been got afterwards.
2237. Then she could have come at any time and got that 7s.
6d.?-Yes; and more if she had wanted it.
2238. That sum is probably standing to her credit yet?-Yes; she
has that to get just now.
2239. If she had got it, in what way would it have been marked
out?-It would have been marked returned, and another entry
made of the new work which she had got.
2240. I show you an entry in another part of the same book: what
does that mean?-It is a memorandum of the goods given to
women to dress. These are the goods given to Mrs. John Gifford.
They are marked down when they are given out, and when they are
returned they are marked out. There are more dressers than one.
2241. Here is one entry: 'January 3-Mary Greig, Trondra, 9 oz.
black. D. 8d., Cr. 7s.' Was that a country girl?-Yes.
2242. Is it not usual for country girls to take away all the value of
their goods when they come in with them?-I think that is
generally what they do; but sometimes, as in that case, the girl
does not seem to have been requiring anything.
2243. You don't know whether that girl asked for money?-I
don't know; but the shop-girl would be able to tell.
2244. You have no doubt that if she had asked for it, she would
have got it?-If she had asked for it, she would have got it; but, as
I have said before, it had been so long the custom not to pay
money, that they did not ask it, not expecting to get it.
2245. Do you say that your profit upon your drapery goods is
calculated at about 15 per cent.?-I should say about 15 to 25 per
cent.; that is the ordinary retail profit over all.
2246. Supposing you were to make a profit upon your hosiery
goods, what profit would you expect to get from your drapery
goods?-I understand that in the south the profit in the drapery
trade is generally estimated at 15 per cent. on an average.
2247. And you make it vary here, according to the different goods,
at from 15 to 25 per cent.?-Yes.
2248. Is that in order to cover your risk upon the hosiery?-Yes; I
should say so. It would be much better for us to sell for cash
down, with a smaller price, than to sell at a higher nominal price,
and to lie out of the money for perhaps a couple of years, and
perhaps run the risk of making a bad debt with the hosiery. I may
add that we sometimes do make bad debts to a pretty large
amount. Some years ago I lost £150 by one customer.
2249. Was he a purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.
2250. Show me any entry in this book relating to a shawl made for
you?-There [showing] is 7 oz. black, which was given to a
woman for a shawl which she is at present making. Here is
another, Mary Greig, who made a black shawl, and returned it.
2251. Does the book show how much was the payment usually got
for the making of it?-She came back on 23d January, and she is
credited with the amount. She had 2s. to get when she got the
work to do.
2252. And she has now 7s.; but the difference between 2s. and 7s.
does not show the payment to her?-No; because she might have
got more goods at the time, and there would be nothing put down
in the book then except the actual balance.
2253. You don't know what goods she got?-No; but I have no
doubt the shop-girl will be able to tell.
2254. Can you tell me what payment would be made to a worker
of that kind for such a shawl?-I think perhaps 10s. It depends a
good deal on the size of thread and on the style of knitting. Of two
shawls of the same size, and having the same weight of wool in
them, one may be worth 2s. 6d. more for knitting than another, on
account of the pattern the girl might put into it, and the style in
which it was done.
2255. Then that shawl would be sent south, I presume?-We
might sell it here.
2256. What do you consider the value of the material for that
shawl, 9 oz.?-That black worsted would have cost us in England
about 8s. a pound.
2257. Then the worsted would come to about 4s. 6d. as the value
of the material?-Yes.
2258. And 10s. for the work: that would be 14s. 6d.?-Yes.
2259. And 6d. for dressing, or 15s. altogether?-Yes.
2260. At what price would that shawl be invoiced to a customer in
the south?-It would depend upon whether it was to a wholesale
house or to a retail customer. We have to sell these goods at a
lower price to wholesale houses in the south, who have again to
sell them, than we would sell them for to others.
2261. In that way there are two classes of customers?-Yes.
2262. Who are your principal correspondents in the south?-[The
witness shows the names in a book.] This is the day-book, which
we use exclusively for our transactions in hosiery with the south.
That book has just been finished. The last entry is 6th November
1871, and since then our entries as to hosiery sent south have gone
into our ordinary shop day-book: we have not provided a separate
book for them.
2263. You say that you have two classes of customers, wholesale
and retail?-Yes; we have wholesale customers, such as these
houses whose names I have pointed out to you. We also sell to
private persons, and of course we must make a difference. We
must sell to these wholesale houses at a much less figure, because
they have again to sell them perhaps to the very same retail
customers.
2264. At what price would that shawl of Mary Greig's be invoiced
to the south?-It is not away yet but I think I will be able to find
some of the same [Page 46] kind. It is very difficult to say what it
would be, because there is such a difference in the quality of the
worsted, and the price of the raw material differs a good deal. For
instance, here is black Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound,
and here is black mohair wool, 27s. a pound. It would cost us
roughly about 2s. an oz.; but that shawl, I should say, would be of
Pyrenees wool, costing about 8s. a pound. That [showing an entry
of a shawl invoiced to a house in London at 20s.] would be
something like it. I may mention that an account like that won't
be paid for eighteen months, and then it will be paid with a
discount of 5 per cent.
2265. Is that a fair specimen of the average sales of shawls?-Yes.
2266. And the average difference between the cost for materials
and workmanship?-Yes.
2267. Do you pay the freight?-The consignee pays the freight.
2268. Is this day-book a copy of your invoices which you send to
these houses?-Yes. In some cases we copy the invoices in a
letter-book, and then re-write them into this day-book. I can
produce the letter-book if you wish to see it.
2269. Does not that difference between the price marked in the
book and the price you have to pay for materials and workmanship
show something in the shape of profit?-Yes, undoubtedly.
2270. Then how do you reconcile that with your previous
statement, that there is really no profit upon your hosiery?-I don't
think I meant to say that there really was not a profit. What I
meant to say was, that, as a rule we would be very well pleased, on
an average of all our hosiery goods, just to get what we pay for
them. Of course, if you take out a special article here and there,
the rule might not hold good; but I think, on the whole, you will
find the result to be as I stated.
2271. Do you make any distinction, in your statement with regard
to profits, between those cases where an article has been made for
you and those in which it has been purchased by you?-I think, as
a rule, the articles which we purchase or exchange over the
counter are generally sold by us just for what we have paid for
them. The others we have a good deal more trouble about. The
raw material has to be ordered, and the money paid for it pretty
soon; and then it has to be given out, and these accounts kept, and
the articles have to be dressed. In fact we have three or four times
the trouble about articles of that description which we have with
regard to articles that we buy in exchange.
2272. Do you make that profit upon the goods made to your order,
by charging a higher price to your customer in the south, or by
paying a smaller rate to the women who knit for you?-The rate
we pay the work-women here depends on what the other dealers in
town are paying. I suppose we all pay much about the same rates.
2273. But I don't see how the same articles if made by one of your
own work-women, can be charged at a different price to your
customer in the south from what it would be if it were purchased
by you across the counter?-As I have said, we have much more
trouble with it.
2274. But the customer in the south fixes the price; and you cannot
give articles that are really the same in quality at a different price,
in consequence of the way in which they have come into your
hands?-No; but on some articles we must have less profit than on
others, and we must just make the one balance the other.
2275. But your customer would object to take two identical
articles at different prices?-No doubt he would; but such articles
as these black shawls we never buy over the counter. In fact I
don't think I ever did buy one in that way; they are always made to
order. We bring in the raw material, and the women knit it up.
The material of which these black shawls are made is not Shetland
wool. The women don't have it. Of course they could get it if
they chose to buy it in the shops: we would sell it to them just the
same as anything else.
2276. Do you purchase stockings?-Yes.
2277. You don't have them made?-No; they are all bought over
the counter.
2278. Are they generally paid for in goods?-Yes; I may say
universally.
2279. Are they made by the people in the country rather than by
those in Lerwick?-There are very few made in Lerwick; all the
hosiery proper is made in the country districts. When I speak of
the hosiery proper, I mean stockings.
2280. What do you call the other kind?-Under-clothing. Articles
such as shawls, veils, neckties, and the like, we call fancy work.
Then there is under-clothing-men's under shirts, gentlemen's
drawers, ladies sleeve, ladies' under-dresses, ladies' drawers
ladies' spencers, which are worn under the clothing.
2281. I see in your day-book a charge for half dozen white veils,
12s., that is, 2s. each: is not 2s. a high price for veils?-It depends
very much on the quality.
2282. Would that be an average quality?-No; it is a good quality.
2283. Were these purchased or made to order?-I could not say as
to that particular lot. The best veils may be specially made or they
may be bought. We very often buy veils in the ordinary retail way
over the counter, and give 2s. 6d. for them; but these would be
particularly well knitted.
2284. Do you give so much as 2s. 6d. for veils?-Yes, for the
finest quality.
2285. Then these 2s. veils were sent to a retail house?-Yes; but
of course they are buying from us, and we are selling to them, and
they get 5 per cent. off that.
2286. What might be the price of these veils to you?-Perhaps
18d. or 20d.
2287. Is there anything else that you wish to state about the hosiery
trade?-Nothing that I recollect of, particularly; but I may perhaps
be allowed to refer to some of the answers given to questions by
the witnesses who were examined before the Commission in
Edinburgh. In question 44,156, Mr. George Smith is asked, 'Who
supplies them (the knitters) with the wool?'-and he replies, 'That
is a very difficult question. They get it chiefly from the small
farmers, and sometimes from the merchants?'-I don't see why
Mr. Smith should have said that that was a difficult question.
There was no difficulty in it whatever.
2288. Where do the knitters generally get their wool?-In the case
of the country girls, their families sometimes have sheep running
on the scattald, and the wool is their own property, and is spun by
some member of the family.
2289. Are there people in the country who collect wool from a
number of families and give it out to spin?-I believe, in some
districts of the country, there are dealers who buy up the wool and
sell it out again as wool. I was to say that the knitters can buy it
from them also, or from their neighbours. These are the three
ways in which they can get it.
2290. Is the greater part of the wool that is used in Shetland of
native production?-Yes; the greater part of it is, except the
Bradford and English manufactured wools, principally black
mohair and alpaca.
2291. Is much of that sold to women who knit on their own
account?-I do not know if there is much sold; but in my own
case, if they came to me wanting it, and I had it in stock, they
should have it, whether they paid for it in cash or got it put to their
account.
2292. If a woman came to you and sold a shawl, and wanted part
of the price of it in worsted, would she get it without any
demur?-Certainly.
2293. Do you know whether objections are made by any of the
merchants to that being done?-I have seen it stated in the
evidence that there are such objections.
2294. But, apart from the evidence before this Commission, do
you know from your own knowledge, or from the statements of
people in Shetland, whether there has been a difficulty in getting
worsted for knitting in that way?-Yes, I have heard that.
2295. Do you know from what that difficulty arises?[Page 47]-I
do not; unless it is because the dealer thinks that worsted is an
article on which he does not have so much profit as on other
goods, and is unwilling to give it.
2296. There has been no difficulty of that kind in your shop at any
time?-No, none.
2297. Is there any reason why, in dealing with knitters, worsted
should be called a money article or a ready-money article, which
was only sold to them for money?-The Shetland worsted, which
is generally spun in the north isles, in North Yell and Unst, is
almost always bought and paid for in cash. It has always been the
custom, at least for many years,-I should say for fifteen years,-
that when the women come down from the north isles with
worsted and sell it either to private persons or in the shops, they
are paid for it in cash at the rate of 3d. or 31/2d. or 4d. per cut of
nominally 100 threads, which in reality, when counted, runs to 80
or 90. I have seen a cut of worsted for which you paid 8d.
supposed to be 100 threads, which when counted was only found
to be 55; but that was an extreme case.
2298. But that wool is obtained by merchants or other persons who
want it, from Shetland women coming mostly from the north
isles?-Yes; where it is principally manufactured.
2299. Is the price of it always paid to them in cash?-As a rule, it
is. Perhaps there may be exceptions, but, as a rule, it is paid in
cash.
2300. Is that assigned in the trade as a reason why, when it is sold
out to other women, it should be paid for by them in cash?-I
should say that that was the reason, because there would be no
profit on it otherwise. For instance worsted for which a dealer
paid 31/2d. a cut would be sold by him at the same price; and if he
gave it in exchange for goods, he might be out of his money for
weeks or months.
2301. Does he not get more than 31/2d. for it when selling it?-I
don't think it. There is a sort of fixed price for the various
qualities of it.
2302. Does he not make a profit on retailing it?-No; I think not.
He would either refuse to sell it at all, or give it at the price at
which he bought it.
2303. Then his purchase of the worsted must have been made
primarily for the use of the knitters employed by him?-Yes, I
believe so.
2304. So that selling it to those women who knit on their own
account would be a little out of his ordinary way of business?-
Yes.
2305. He does not profess to get it for that purpose?-No. It is the
raw material brought in by him or bought by him for his own uses.
2306. Is it wool or worsted you are speaking of?-Worsted.
Before it is carded and spun we call it wool; after it is carded and
spun we call it worsted.
2307. It is brought in the shape of worsted?-Yes.
2308. So that all you have been speaking of is really worsted?-
Yes.
2309. Is much of that sent south from Shetland by the merchants in
the shape of worsted?-Not much, I should say. It is more
profitable, of course, for dealers and knitters to make it up, as all
the raw material would come to would be comparatively
trifling.
2310. Then you are not in the habit of sending it south in the shape
of worsted?-No. In fact it is difficult to get. Sometimes we get
an order for a small quantity for the south, for darning purposes.
When a customer orders a dozen or two dozen socks, he will ask
for some worsted along with them for that purpose; but it is not
easy sometimes to get that for him. I was to refer to one or two
other questions in the previous evidence. In question 44,289 Mr.
Walker is asked, 'These merchants have no hold over them as
being their tenants?'-and he replies, 'Not in the town, except in
very few instances; not as a rule.' Now I don't know what
instances he refers to. For my own part, I cannot imagine how any
of us Lerwick dealers can have any hold on the Lerwick knitters,
because they can come to us or any other body, just as they please.
2311. None of them are your tenants?-No; but even if they were,
I don't think it would matter.
2312. If their rent were in arrear, would the merchant not have a
hold over them?-He, as their landlord, would just have the same
redress as any other landlord would have. Then the next question
is, 'Is it considered a lucrative business?-Oh ! immensely so.'
2313. You have already made a statement with regard to that
answer; at least you have explained what the profit is?-Yes; but
he says, 'I know for a fact, that the worsted of a shawl which sells
at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to 3s.' Now that is quite incorrect,
because with the very lowest price of worsted the cheapest would
be at least 4s. 6d.; but for a shawl selling at 30s. the worsted of it
would certainly cost me 10s.
2314. Do you mean the worsted of any shawl that would sell for
that in the south market or to a south country merchant?-Yes, or
to any customer here. We sell a good many of these shawls to
ladies in Lerwick, or to any people who come in to buy them; and
any shawl that would sell for 30s. the worsted of it would cost 9s.
or 10s.
2315. How much would the workmanship of a 30s. shawl come
to?-Perhaps 12s., and sometimes more. Sometimes we give as
high as 15s. for it. We paid 17s. 6d. last week for making a fine
shawl. Then he says, A good deal of the worsted is now made in
England, and brought down to Shetland.
2316. Is there much worsted imported from England?-Yes. Mr.
Walker says further, 'The demand is so great for the Shetland
goods, that it (the worsted) is made in Yorkshire, and brought
down at 8s. a pound; and a quarter of a pound of that worsted will
make a large shawl.' That is a mistake, because nothing less than
half a pound of worsted of that quality could by any possibility
make a shawl.
2317. Is 8s. per pound a correct statement of the price?-For some
qualities it is. There is a great variety of qualities. The qualities of
Pyrenees and mohair and alpaca wools go by numbers, and
according to fineness the numbers rise.
2318. Can you mention the various prices at present?-7s. and 8s.
per pound for blacks and whites; 9s. and 10s. for scarlet and
ingrained colours.
2319. That is for Yorkshire wool?-Yes, of the finer descriptions;
and then mohair and alpaca will range from 20s. to 24s. and 30s.
2320. I thought you said 32s. before?-Yes; and I have no doubt
some of the numbers are even higher.
2321. I suppose there is not much variety in the size of shawls used
for opera-cloaks or dress purposes?-No, they are all made about a
size; but the value does not depend so much upon the size as upon
the style of the workmanship.
2322. It will also depend to some extent on the quality of the
wool?-Yes, to some extent.
2323. But principally on the workmanship?-Yes, it depends in
great measure on that; and that is the reason why there are constant
disputes with the knitters. Two knitters may come in with two
shawls made of the same material and the same size and yet the
one will be 25 per cent. better than the other, on account of the
work bestowed upon it, and the niceness of the pattern; but it is
very difficult to get these girls to understand that they should be
paid according to that.
2324. Can you show me any instance of a shawl made of
Yorkshire wool for which you paid 20s.? That would be rather a
fine quality, would it not?-Yes; that would be mohair or alpaca.
2325. But not the finest quality?-No, not the finest.
2326. We may take that as an average quality. You said it would
take about half a pound of material to make the shawl; but you
also said that the finer the wools are, the less thread it takes to
make them. How much would it take to make a shawl of that
kind?-Perhaps it would take 6 oz.
2327. That would be about 7s. 6d. for the material?-Yes; but a
great deal depends on the way in which [Page 48] it is knitted. It
is almost impossible to say, except with a very special article, what
the knitter would get for it, because this is not like a uniform trade
at all.
2328. Then you fix the price to the knitter according to the
judgment of your eye?-Yes, after the work is brought back.
Properly speaking, every shawl requires to be priced individually.
2329. Between what sums would you say that the price of the
workmanship of a shawl made of that sort of stuff would vary?-
That depends entirely on the workmanship itself. Some of the best
knitters we have in town put very high prices on their work.
2330. I am assuming that it varies; but there must be a limit to it.
Can you not give what would be about the average?-I will give
an instance. About a fortnight ago I bought a shawl from a girl for
35s., made of common Yorkshire wool. It was her own material,
and she just came in with it, and sold it over the counter. The
material of that shawl, for which I gave her 35s., had not cost her
4s. It was a half-square shawl. It is still lying in the shop, and I
can produce it if it is desired. The whole value of that article
depended on the workmanship contained in it.
2331. Is it a black or white shawl?-White. It is not even fine
Shetland worsted, which is the most valuable sort of thing.
2332. Is fine Shetland worsted more valuable than the other
worsted at 32s?-Yes, we can always get a better price; and
indeed the article is much more valuable when made of fine white
Shetland wool than of fine white English wool, because there is a
hardness and coarseness in the English wool that is not in the
Shetland.
2333. But you don't pay so much as 32s. per pound for Shetland
wool in any case?-No, I doubt think we pay so much as that for
it, but the Shetland wool is more rare. The supply of it is limited.
You can get any quantity of mohair or alpaca, but you cannot get
any quantity of fine Shetland wool.
2334. Do you purchase that quality of fine Shetland wool to any
extent?-I buy some of it. I have paid as high as 6d. a cut of
nominally 100 threads for it; but that was a rare article. 4d. per cut
is the usual thing.
2335. How much is that per pound?-We don't reckon the
Shetland worsted by the pound.
2336. But as you do so little business in giving out work, I suppose
you don't purchase great quantities of the Shetland wool for your
own use?-No.
2337. Is there any other part of the evidence you wish to refer
to?-There is another question, 44,301, where Mr. Walker is
asked, 'Is it all done through the middle-man?'-referring to the
buying of woollen goods: he says, 'Through the merchants. Then,
in considering the hosiery matter, when you leave the town, you
come to the middle-men, merchants, or merchant factors, or
merchant proprietors; in which case the knitters are their tenants.
All worsted goods taken and sold in town are virtually taken
surreptitiously or on the sly.' I wish to remark with regard to that,
that I never heard of such a thing until I saw it here.
2338. Are there hosiery merchants and worsted merchants in the
country?-Yes, here and there.
2339. Do they possess any hold over the knitters?-I suppose in
some cases they will be factors for the proprietors, and these
knitters will be living in family with the tenants who have the
holdings.
2340. Do you know any instance of such hosiery merchants being
proprietors in the country?-I don't know about them being
proprietors.
2341. Or factors for proprietors?-I suppose Spence & Co., in
Unst, are in that position.
2342. Are they hosiery merchants?-They deal extensively in
hosiery; and I understand they are factors or lessees or the greater
part of the island.
2343. But the other fish-curers generally are not hosiery
merchants?-I think not, as a rule.
2344. Then you deny that, as a general rule, knitters are bound in
any way to sell to dealers in the country?-I never heard of such a
thing before especially this statement, that all worsted goods taken
and sold in town are virtually taken surreptitiously. That may be
true, but I never heard it till I read it in this evidence; and I don't
believe it is true.
2345. Do you often send orders to the country?-Yes; we send
orders to the merchants in the country for hosiery just the same as
we order goods from the south, and the merchants in the country
make them up.
2346. Do they have their profit on the hosiery in the first
instance?-I suppose so. We pay them in cash.
2347. And you have a commission or a profit in your turn?-Yes,
we must have that otherwise it would be no object for us to buy the
articles.
2348. Is there any other point in the previous evidence which you
wish to mention?-I don't think there is anything else.
2349. Is there any other correction you wish make upon that
evidence, or upon the evidence which has been taken here, so far
as you have heard it?-No. I heard the evidence of several of
these knitting women, and I have no reason to doubt its general
correctness.
2350. Is it the case that the knitters are more commonly in debt to
the merchant than the other way,-that they are generally rather
behind in their accounts with him?-In my own case, I don't think
that is so, at least not to any extent.
2351. In a bad season do they not fall behind, and require credit to
some extent from the merchant?-I don't think that obtains very
much with the knitters. It would obtain more with the fishermen
and heads of houses.
2352. But if a woman is depending entirely on knitting for her
livelihood, and the prices of provisions are high, while at the same
time the prices for knitted goods may happen to be low, is it usual
for a merchant to make advances to her in goods or, in cash?-
There being no system of cash payments, I would not say that I
would make advances of cash to her.
2353. But would the merchant, in such a case, make advances to
her in goods?-He probably would. We know most of these
knitting girls, and we would not see them at a loss for anything
they actually required. I believe most of the dealers would be
ready to help them in that way.
2354. Does that come to be any inducement to the knitting women
to sell their goods to particular merchants afterwards, or to submit
to take their payments in goods when, in other circumstances, they
would prefer to have them in cash?-I think, in many cases, if they
were in debt to me, they would not scruple very much at walking
off and dealing with some other body afterwards, and leaving my
debt to take its chance; for they know there would be no legal
proceedings taken-no summoning, or anything of that kind. I
never heard of any case in Lerwick where a knitter was summoned
for any balance which she was due.
2355. Perhaps the balances generally are so small, that it is not
worth the merchants' while to summon the women for them?-I
daresay that is the case. I have been told that one of the witnesses
yesterday, Mrs. Arcus, referred to the state of the trade in my late
fathers time and said it was better then, because the women who
made these goods were in the habit of getting meal and groceries
from my father for them.
2356. Was that actually the case?-It was. For a great many years
my father kept meal, barley, rice, sugar, soap, tea, and all sorts of
provisions; but the consequence was, that when newer dealers
came into the trade, and went more extensively into the drapery
goods, then the knitters and people selling for drapery came more
upon my father for groceries, on which there was a much smaller
profit; and of course that put us to a great disadvantage. The
consequence was, that we gradually gave up the grocery part of the
trade. I believe that is the explanation of the statement, which I
daresay was quite correct.
2357. Of course there are some women who live entirely by
knitting? Can you explain how they supply themselves with food
if they are paid entirely or almost entirely with goods? Have you
turned your [Page 49] attention to that point at all?-No, I must
say I was rather astonished to hear some of the evidence which has
been given here, although, I have no doubt it was quite correct. It
had not occurred to me that some of these women were under such
conditions as it appears they are.
2358. However, you have not turned your attention to that
point?-No, but I have no doubt that what they said was quite
correct; and perhaps there is a grievance there which ought to be
remedied. I show you an entry in my invoice-book of a dozen
gentleman's drawers sold for 48s., which is exactly the price paid
for them in goods. My customer does not pay for eighteen months,
so that I lose the interest for that time; and there is also 5 per cent.
off at the end of the eighteen months. The two next items are in
precisely the same position. They are charged at the nominal
prices which we have paid for them in goods.
2359. The long credit which you give, in that case, arises from the
state of the market in London?-Yes; these London houses are
generally long in paying.
2360. But cannot you get your customers here, from whom you
buy the goods, to take less for them?-No, we don't require to do
that. I believe that when a woman makes a pair of drawers, or
anything else that kind, she cannot be paid for them with less than
4s.
2361. Is that an article in which you deal extensively?-Yes; we
buy a good many of them, but it is an article on which we have no
profit.
2362. A statement has been made in this inquiry, that the success
of a merchant in Shetland consists in being able to accumulate
such an amount of bad debts about him as thirls the whole families
in a neighbourhood to him, and then he gets on: do you concur in
that statement?-I think that statement must have been intended as
a burlesque. I cannot understand how any man could thrive by
accumulating a large amount of bad debts. I read the statement at
the time, but I could not understand it.
2363. It can only mean this: that the man has a number of debts
which his debtors have difficulty in paying, but that they are in the
course of earning money year after year and that they are
compelled to spend entire earnings in is shop: do you think that is
the case?-I can only say that in my own business I make a point
of making as few debts as possible, and never any bad ones. To
make bad debts I should consider a misfortune rather than a piece
of good luck.
2364. But they may not be bad debts, although payment of them
may be delayed for a long time. It is perhaps a misnomer, to call
them bad debts?-Yes I should say so.
2365. I understand you were engaged at one time in the whaling
agency business?-Yes, for some years. My brother-in-law and
partner managed that part of the business; and he purposes to
come forward and give some evidence, and produce books which
he kept at that time. We went out of that trade last spring.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, examined.
2366. You are the principal partner of the firm of Robert Sinclair
& Co., merchants in Lerwick?-I am the sole partner of that firm.
2367. Your stock, I understand, consists of drapery goods and
tea?-Drapery, millinery, boots and shoes, tea, and various other
articles. I also keep various kinds of groceries-not many; but
there are tea, soap, soda, and blue.
2368. You do not keep provisions?-Not provisions.
2369. Do you keep sugar?-No; I do not sell sugar now.
2370. Besides that trade, you are employed in the purchase and
sale of hosiery?-I am.
2371. Your hosiery is obtained in two ways: either women that
knit upon your employment or from parties who come with their
own goods and sell them to you?-They are principally the latter.
2372. How many women can you state, have been employed on an
average during the last three years in knitting for you with worsted
supplied by you?-I never was at the pains to reckon exactly the
number of knitters I had. I should suppose there would be on an
average from 80 to 100-sometimes more and sometimes fewer;
but that is only a guess. I have books here which will show it
exactly.
2373. Are those women who knit for you paid generally in money,
or in goods; or is there an account between you?-There is always
an account kept with the knitters, and they are paid in cash or in
goods-principally in goods; but there is no objection to pay them
in cash when they want it.
2374. Are your people instructed to pay in cash when cash is asked
for?-I never gave any direct instructions to that effect; but
occasionally they may pay in cash when they know a customer
well. If it is advances that are wanted, they would require to know
the character of the customer to whom the advances are made.
2375. Do you mean to say that the question whether a request for
an advance is to be granted or not, depends upon the state of the
customer's account at that time?-Exactly, or mostly that.
2376. Then, if a knitter has a considerable amount at her credit,
and wants money, is it the rule in your shop that she will get an
advance?-She will get an advance in money when she has it to
get; but we don't call that an advance,-it is a debt; and it has
been generally understood, as has been often stated, that it is goods
which they are to get for their work. That rule, however, has often
been departed from-more particularly lately.
2377. You say there is an understanding they are to be paid in
goods, but that that understanding has been departed from?-Yes,
often. But the last question put to me was a double one. With
regard to the other part of it,-as to them having a large amount at
their credit,-the fact is, that they seldom have anything at their
credit, but when the goods come in, they have to be entered to
their credit, to make up for advances which they received when
they were knitting. That is the rule, but there are several
exceptions to it.
2378. As a general rule, has a knitter got more goods from you
than the value of her work?-Yes; she generally has got quite
equal to the value of it, and frequently more.
2379. You say that she has either got more goods than the value of
the hosiery which she brings, or she has got at least up to the value
of the work returned?-Yes; generally.
2380. Have you formed any idea as to whether the kind of goods
which you supply to your knitters consists to a greater extent of
articles of ordinary dress, such as cotton, and dress stuffs, and
boots and shoes, or of millinery, and the finer articles which you
deal in?-They consist principally of strong usable wearing
apparel, boots and shoes, and other things that are generally
required for domestic purposes or for their own wear.
2381. You say that you have about 80 or 100 women engaged
knitting to you?-I only guessed that. I think there must be more.
2382. Is the system of dealing with the whole of these, that an
account is kept?-Yes.
2383. Is that account kept in a pass-book with the knitter?-Not
always. When they want a pass-book, they get it. You can see
from that book [producing work-book], who have pass-books and
who have not.
2384. Has every knitter a separate page in your work-ledger?-
Yes; the book speaks for itself.
2385. It may be convenient for both of us if you take the case of
Jemima Sandison just now, whose passbook I have got here. Is
that pass-book an exact copy of the page in her name in your
ledger?-Yes; the entries in both are made, at the same time. She
brings the pass-book when she wants any article and the entry is
made in the work-book at the same time as in the [Page 50]
pass-book. Unless there is any error in summation or date, the
one should be an exact transcript of the other.
2386. Is it generally known by you or your shopkeeper whether
there is a sum at the credit of the worker, or whether the account
stands the other way?-After they have gone on for a while, and
when they come in with any work, of course we square up the
books and examine them.
2387. In adding up Jemima Sandison's book, I find from
November 11, 1870, to December 28, 1871, the amount of goods
and cash supplied to her was £3, 5s. 3d.?-Yes; but there is
something I may explain with regard to this particular case. All
the work she has done does not appear here. If she wants to get
wool or any other article, she can get it out of the shop on bringing
goods for it, and that does not appear in the book. She sells the
goods to us when she has made them, and gets either cash or goods
for them according she wishes. That book does not show all our
transactions with her.
2388. Some of them may be ready-money transactions?-Not
ready-money, but private transactions, that do not appear in the
books at all, because the book only contains the goods she gets
from us, and for which she returns knitted work. She is paid for
the knitting of these goods, and not for the whole value.
2389. How do you distinguish, in that case, between the goods that
go into the pass-book and those which she gets, but which do not
enter the pass-book?-There is no occasion to distinguish between
them at all, because they are separate transactions.
2390. When she comes with a separate article to sell, how do you
do?-Suppose a time when trade is dull, as Mr. Laurenson has
explained, and we are not making falls (which is the principal
thing this woman makes for us), we try to keep her in work by
giving her out material, and she makes anything else with it that
she likes. We do not enter that in the book at all. She makes it for
herself. We may buy it from her, or she may go and sell it to
another if she likes; or she, may have a private order for it, and sell
it in that way. These transactions do not appear in the book.
2391. But when she comes to you, and you do happen to buy an
article in that way from her, is she paid for it to a certain extent in
goods?-Yes, if she wants them.
2392. These goods are not entered in the day-book?-Of course
not.
2393. You just deliver there to her across the counter, in the same
way as you would deliver them to any party who came in to make
a ready-money transaction?-Yes.
2394. If she does not want exactly the value of goods which will
pay for her shawl, or for any other article which she may have
brought to you, do you enter the balance in any book?-No; we do
not enter it in the book, except in the line-book. We give her a
receipt for the balance, and we give her the balance in cash or in
goods at any other time.
2395. If she wishes money for the balance, is it usual thing in your
trade to pay it in money?-The fact is that we never refused her
money when she asked it. She stated that in her evidence.
2396. That may have been the case with this particular woman, but
is it the fact that any knitter who wants a balance of that kind in
money is able to get it?-If she has bargained to take goods, and if
the price we put on the article be such that we cannot give money
on it without making a loss by it, then we don't give the money:
we stick to the bargain. If the bargain has been such that it would
allow us any little profit on it, then we give it all in money, if they
want it in that way.
2397. The question whether she is to get money or goods for the
balance, depends on the bargain which the woman has made?-
Yes; decidedly.
2398. Can you tell me any case in which you have paid the whole
price for hosiery goods in money?-I could tell you many cases of
that kind, For instance, I could mention the case of Miss Gifford.
2399. What was the transaction you had with her?-My last
transaction with her-indeed I have only had one for a long
time-was for a shawl which bought from her; and paid all cash
for it.
2400. When was that?-About three months ago.
2401. What was the price?-The price of the shawl was £4, and I
gave her four £1 notes for it.
2402. Was not that a very valuable shawl?-Yes but I would rather
have taken it and paid money for it, than I would have given barter
for a thing that might lie on my hands until the moths eat it.
2403. The quality of the thing was so good, that you wanted to
have it at any price?-Yes, and I could charge a small profit on it;
but I cannot do that on the great bulk of the things I get.
2404. Did you pay for that in cash because it was an exceptional
article?-I paid for it in cash because I wanted it. I would do the
same for anything I wanted; but when goods are forced upon us,
and goods asked for them, we cannot be expected to put our hands
into the till and pay out cash for them.
2405. Are goods forced upon you?-Yes.
2406. Have you no option but to buy them?-No. That is not the
meaning of my words. I do not mean that we are forced to buy
them, in that sense. I mean, that people come in importuning us to
buy goods which we do not want.
2407. You do buy them, however?-Sometimes, and sometimes
not.
2408. Is it in consequence of the importunity of your customers
that you buy them?-Sometimes, and sometimes not.
2409. But you say that sometimes you are forced by the
importunity of your customers to buy their goods?-Yes; we may
be induced to do it by an importunate woman.
2410. And when the importunity is so great that you are
constrained to buy them, are these the cases in which you pay in
goods?-No; the people often don't want the cash. They don't ask
for it. They come to us with the general understanding that the,
trade is done in goods-I mean in barter.
2411. Do you say the general understanding is that the payment is
to be in goods, and also that you have sometimes to buy goods
because you are importuned to do so?-Decidedly. I say I do buy
them sometimes, because I cannot get rid of the customer
otherwise, but these are exceptional cases.
2412. Is it because of the importunity, or because it is the general
custom, that the payment is in goods?-That has been a tradition
from time immemorial.
2413. But you have assigned the fact of paying in goods to both of
these causes, and I wish to know which of them it is that you really
refer it to?-It is sometimes the one and sometimes the other.
2414. But you are not obliged to buy hosiery and pay with goods
unless you like?-Not at all; nor for money either. What I stated
was, that I would rather pay in cash for a good article which I can
sell again, than purchase a thing on barter that I have a great risk in
selling. That is the whole import and purpose of what I said.
2415. You instanced one transaction,-that which you had with
Elizabeth Gifford?-Yes; and there is another girl, Catherine
Brown, who is in Leith just now, from whom I bought a great
number of shawls, and paid her cash down for them.
2416. Was that long ago?-It has gone over a number of years.
2417. Was your reason for paying the cash the same in that case:
because the articles which you got from her were good?-Yes;
they were prime articles.
2418. Is there any one else you wish to mention?-There are many
cases in which I paid cash for hosiery articles, although I could not
name the persons just now. They were people whose faces I knew,
but I cannot recollect their names.
2419. Were these cases in which you paid the whole value in
cash?-Yes.
2420. Did these transactions enter your books?-No; the cash was
just paid for them at the time.
2421. Do you take no notice of the cash paid out in [Page 51] that
way?-Not generally. I don't that there is any special entry in the
cash-book showing what it had been paid for.
2422. Don't you take a receipt from such persons?-No, I never
did.
2423. Then how do you know the price at which to sell these
shawls?-Because I put the prices on the shawls myself.
2424. Do you mark them all at the time?-Yes.
2425. And you swear that no entry of such a payment enters into
any of your books?-I swear that, to my knowledge, there is no
memorandum taken of a cash transaction carried through in that
way. With regard Elizabeth Gifford, I may explain that I gave her
a receipt for a shawl to be paid for in cash, and she came to my
shop some time afterwards and got the cash.
2426. Then that cash entered your book?-Yes. Here is the entry
[produces line-book]: 'C. M. 95. 1. 11.71. Paid in cash, 80s. £4.'
2427. How do you know that is the transaction?-Because it is the
only transaction of the kind that is in the book, it is the only
transaction in which £4 was paid in cash.
2428. Was that entry all made at one time?-The first part of it
was made when she brought the shawl. The date when she got the
line is not here.
2429. Then it was on 1st November 1871 that she got the
money?-Yes.
2430. The entry made at first was 'C.M. 95. 80s. £4?'-Yes.
2431. And the figures '1. 11. 71,' and the words 'paid in cash,'
were inserted when the money was given?-Yes
2432. There is no entry of the date of the issuing of the line at
first?-No; the book was not being dated then.
2433. When did the book begin to be dated?-We have the date on
the line itself, and therefore it is quite sufficient to enter the
numbers of the lines in the book.
2434. But when did the book begin to be dated?-On 30th
October.
2435. Then it must have been a few days before 30th October
when the line was first given out?-Yes.
2436. To come back to Jemima Sandison's book the total amount
supplied to her was £3, 5s. 31/2d. in period of thirteen months, and
there was a balance of 16s. to begin with. The amount that
appears to have been paid in cash during that time is 3s. 6d. on all
these transaction: is that so?-It may be; but I have ready
explained that the entries in the book do not represent all the cash
which she got from me.
2437. She also appears to have got tea on thirty-seven different
occasions, in quantities of 8d., 9d., and 10d. worth at the time?-
Yes; that would be a quarter of a pound.
2438. The amount of tea altogether comes to 5d. or more than
one-half of the total quantity of all that she got from you. If we
assume that she got a amount of tea as part of the previous balance
of 16s, there is thus only 8s. 6d. paid in cash, 30s. or more paid in
tea, and the rest paid in goods. Can you give me any idea whether
the amount of cash paid to this woman on the separate transactions
you have been speaking of would be greater or less than the
amount appearing in this book?-I could not swear as to what it
was, because we are transacting business of that kind with her very
frequently, and it is impossible to remember what amount of goods
or of cash she got on these particular transactions. I should say
that what the book gives about a fair average of what it might be
upon the other sales as well, or it might be that it would rather
exceed it; but I should wish to remark that she never was refused
the cash that was asked for by her.
2439. Do you think the case of this woman Sandison may be taken
as a fair specimen of the accounts which you keep with the other
women employed by you?-No, there are exceptions; there are
some who got a good deal more cash than she did.
2440. Was there any reason, in these other cases, for their getting
more cash?-Of course they asked for more and perhaps they
needed it. There are some who are equally dependent with her,
and who have perhaps less chances of getting money otherwise.
As I said, she sometimes makes to order, and gets cash from that
source. If you will take the case of Mary Ann Sinclair and her
sisters as it appears in the book, you will see that they got more
cash than Sandison did.
2441. I see in Mary Ann Sinclair's account on 'September 30,
1868, cash 5s.; October 13, cash for meal 11s. 3d.; November 18,
cash 1s.; November 23, to paid William Smith for meal 5s. 4d.;
November. 27, cash 1s.' Do you give that as an average specimen
of the amount of cash that was paid?-There may be exceptional
cases; but I daresay, taking the whole thing, Sandison's pass-book
may be regarded as a fair specimen of the way in which the thing
has gone on.
2442. In that account of Mary Ann Sinclair's which you have just
showed me there is an entry of 5s. 4d. paid to William Smith for
meal: who is William Smith?-He is a grocer in town.
2443. Was that paid to him directly, or did the money pass through
the hands of the woman Sinclair?-I generally gave her the
money, and told her to go anywhere she liked with it; but in some
cases, if it happened that I did not have the cash on the counter, or
handy, she went to the same person that she used to deal with, or
to any one she wanted to go to, and got what she required, and I
paid the cash for it perhaps on the same day.
2444. In what way was that transaction carried out? Did you give
her a line to go to Smith for the meal?-I don't think it. I have no
recollection of doing it.
2445. Is that a common kind of entry in your book?-No.
2446. There is another entry of 11s. 3d, for meal: would that be
paid to Smith or to the woman Sinclair?-I think it was paid to
herself.
2447. Then why is it entered in your book as being for meal?-
Very often we did that in order to distinguish the things she
wanted the cash for, and to keep a check on them. For instance,
they might come in and ask cash from me and they would receive
it.
2448. But why should you wish to keep a check on them in a case
like that?-I don't know.
2449. Had you any interest in the way in which the woman was to
spend her money?-No; but if we paid cash to a person for one of
these women, we marked it down as having been paid.
2450. Then when you put down this sum of 11s. 3d. for meal, did
that mean that you had paid the money to Smith or to some other
meal-dealer, or that you had paid the money to Mary Ann Sinclair
herself?-I cannot recollect.
2451. I only want you to explain, if possible, or to suggest an
explanation if you don't remember, about how it happened that
that entry was made for meal. If the woman got it in cash, would
it not be simply marked down as cash?-I don't remember about
that. She might have got the meal from Smith, and paid him the
money at any time. She may have told us that she had to pay
Smith an account, and asked us to pay it for her. That is the only
explanation I can give of it. Sometimes she would ask to get a
little meal; and as we did not have meal, we would tell her to go to
anyone she liked and get it, and we would pay the party for it. I
may say, at the same time, that I did not have a fraction upon that.
There was no compact about in between me and the man who
supplied her with the meal. We just paid her account to him in
cash.
2452. You don't remember either of these payments?-No; I
cannot remember them.
2453 Do you know whether such entries are frequent in your
books?-They are not; there is no occasion for them being
frequent.
2454. Does a woman often come and say to you, 'I want some
money to pay for meal or some groceries, and I wish you would
give me so much?'-No; I have no recollection of any other case
than the one which [Page 52] has been referred to. There may
have been cases in which, when selling an article, they may have
asked for a few shillings for themselves, and where they may have
mentioned what they wanted it for; but with regard to Mary Ann
Sinclair's case, to the best of my recollection, this was just an
account which I paid for her to a meal-dealer that she was owing it
to.
2455. You say that some of your knitters don't have pass-books at
all?-The majority of them have.
2456. In that case, the only account kept with them is the one
entered in your work-book?-Yes; but whenever we settle, we
carefully read over all the items to them and if they take any
objection to them, of course they get some explanation.
2457. The work-book you have produced is the current one?-
Yes.
2458. Is there any entry in it showing where a pass-book has been
given?-Yes; it is generally marked in red pencil where there is a
pass-book. There are not many pass-books; I don't think we have
a dozen altogether; but the women are never refused a pass-book if
they want it. It entails a great deal more trouble on us to keep
them.
2459. When you come to settle one of these accounts where
there is no pass-book, how do you proceed?-For instance, here
is Elizabeth Hunter, from Trondra: she comes into town on
September 2, and you find then a balance for articles brought in,
which she takes in goods?-She takes more than she has to get.
2460. Are all these items read over to her at that time?-Every
item is read over to every person when we settle with them. We
always make a point of reading over the account in detail, and
satisfying them about it. Sometimes it happens that they cannot
remember about a particular thing, and some explanation is given
to them, generally by one of the people the shop; and that satisfies
them.
2461. Does it sometimes happen that the balance such a case is in
favour of the knitter?-Yes; sometimes.
2462. Is it, then, the practice simply to carry the balance on to the
new account, or does the woman receive any acknowledgment for
the balance?-The balance generally the other way. I may say that
we never take goods in advance. They generally go ahead, and we
must keep a tight rein on some of them otherwise they would go
deep enough. For instance here is a copy of the account of
Elizabeth Robertson, who was examined before you on Monday.
[Produces copy account.]
2463. Before going into that, I believe you think that in some parts
of the previous evidence an erroneous impression has been
produced to the effect that no worsted can be got in exchange for
the knitted goods?-Yes; I can state that I myself with my own
hands have given Elizabeth Robertson worsted in payment for
shawls more than once. I have given her the greater part of the
value of her shawls, or of the goods she had to sell, in worsted,
although that does not appear in her account.
2464. That has occurred when she has brought articles to you for
sale or exchange?-Yes.
2465. Do you say you have often given her the greater part of her
work in worsted?-I have not often given her the greater part, but I
have often given her part, and sometimes the greater part, in
worsted. Those in my shop can bear testimony to the same effect,
that they have given her worsted too. In fact we never refused to
give Pyrenees wool for the knitted goods when we had it, except
on rare occasions, when we had very little of it, and had to give it
out ourselves for work that we required.
2466. I suppose you know that if you give them that worsted in
return for their hosiery, they will bring it back to you?-They may,
or they may not.
2467. Do they not bring it to somebody?-They may to somebody,
but perhaps not to me. They may have an order for it from a lady
in the south, or dispose of it in other ways. We do not ask them
what they do with it, unless we give it out to them to make a
special article with. The fact is, with regard to that kind of
worsted we do scarcely anything in it, but we sell it to any knitter
in order to accommodate them.
2468. Then you say you have given Pyrenees worsted to Elizabeth
Robertson?-Yes.
2469. Have you ever given her the other kinds of worsted that
come from Yorkshire?-That is the same thing.
2470. Is the Pyrenees and the Yorkshire worsted all the same?-
No, the Pyrenees is one class. There is mohair worsted. I don't
recollect whether I ever gave any of it. It is used, for knitting falls.
'The Pyrenees is generally made into shawls.
2471. Does Robertson generally make shawls-Yes, generally; but
she makes falls too. I don't recollect giving her mohair; but I have
given her Pyrenees often. She would get any kind when she asked
for it; but mohair is a thing we never do sell, because we only
bring it in for our own use
2472. Is it the highest priced of all?-Yes.
2473. Is it higher than the Shetland wool?-We don't sell the
Shetland wool, except in rare, exceptional cases. The fine wool
we never sell, because we have great difficulty in getting it. We
never send it south; nor do we sell it in the shop as an article of
sale, except on occasions when a person is very much in want of it
for any particular purpose.
2474. For darning, for instance?-No, that kind of wool is not fit
for darning; it is only the coarser kind that is used in that way.
2475. Then you don't regard the Shetland wool as an article of
commerce?-No, it is a material we use for ourselves and we have
very great difficulty in getting as much of it as we require. We pay
cash for it; and if we were to sell it would put a stop to our trade.
2476. You heard the evidence of Mr. Laurenson about Shetland
wool?-Yes; it is something different from my experience. If a
lady or a retail dealer in the south orders a Shetland shawl, we
don't send a shawl made of Shetland wool unless we know that
they want that particular kind, but if we send one of Pyrenees
wool, we tell them what it is made of and that if will not do, they
can return it.
2477. With regard to the worsted, does the idea that knitters
cannot purchase worsted from merchants in Lerwick arise from the
fact that the merchants do not regard Shetland wool as an article of
commerce?-That is my impression. They not only do not so
regard it; but the fact is, if they made it an article of commerce, it
would put a stop to their business.
2478. How so?-Because they cannot get sufficient material for
their own use and also for sale.
2479. Do you mean that if you sold Shetland wool to any one who
asked it, you would not have a sufficient supply for your own
trade?-That is one reason; but there is another reason: because it
would be like changing a shilling, for the people know the value of
these things, and they would just pay me for the wool what I paid
for it in cash.
2480. They can get the wool from the same dealers from whom
you buy?-Yes, and of course the price of it is as well known to
them as to me. Another thing is, that if I take a parcel of worsted
of perhaps 600 or 700 cuts, a knitter who wants some of it won't
be pleased unless she gets the very pick of it; and for the very pick
of it she won't give me any more than I had to pay for the whole of
it overhead.
2481. That is substantially what Mr. Laurenson said with regard to
the reason for not selling Shetland wool. He does not sell it
either?-None of the principal dealers sell it. Sometimes some of
the wool is sold to grocers in town who don't deal in shawls, and
the knitters buy it from them.
2482. But if the knitters ask for Shetland wool, and offer cash for
it, is it usual to sell it?-No, except in very exceptional cases; and
you will see that an exception has been made in the case of that
girl Robertson.
[Page 53]
2483. You want to point that out?-Yes; I consider that we dealt
with her in rather an exceptional way.
2484. I see '12 cuts worsted:' is that what you refer to?-There is
more than that in the account. The very first thing is a balance on
worsted from a previous account, of 2s.; then on December 16,
1865, she gets 12 and 16 cuts at the same time, but at different
prices. The 16 cuts are charged at 3d. per cut, which is a kind of
worsted we very seldom sell. Then July 5, 1866, there are 12 cuts;
and in 1868 there are other sales of worsted to her.
2485. Is this a copy from your books of the account with Elizabeth
Robertson?-Yes; exactly.
2486. The crosses on the side show where worsted has been
given?-Yes.
2487. Do these entries refer to Shetland worsted?-I think mostly.
2488. But you say this is an exceptional case?-Yes; it was to
favour her that I did it.
2489. Was there any particular reason for favouring her in that
way?-It was done because I thought she was a needful person,
and she pleaded for it.
2490. Was it that sort of wool that she was in the way of
knitting?-It was that kind she wanted; and although I was not in
the habit of selling it, I gave it to oblige her.
2491. Do these entries appear in the ordinary account which you
kept with her as a knitter employed by you?-She was never
employed by me specially.
2492. Did she always knit with her own wool?-Always with
me. She did not knit specially to me, that I recollect of I have
no recollection of ever employing her. [Shown account in
work-book.] I see from this that she has knitted for me. She
knitted three shawls for me in 1867. The others are shawls she
knitted for herself, and sold in the shop. At 15, March 1870, she
was due me £4, 16s. 31/2d.
2493. I see that between March 29 and December 28 she has paid
off that balance with the exception about £1?-Yes. Then she said
in her evidence that she would not have taken out so much in
clothes, or half so much, if it had not been that she was compelled
to take goods for her work. Now I would ask how that statement is
consistent with the fact that for about twelve months she was due
me that sum, mostly for clothes, when she was not asked to take
them, but the reverse.
2494. She got them on credit?-Yes.
2495. Then this account of hers you happen to have, because she
was knitting at that time for you?-I would not assign that is a
reason for her getting the goods.
2496. But I am asking you the reason why you have this
account?-Because it is in my books.
2497. I rather understood that the only women who had accounts
entered in your books were those who were employed by you as
knitters: is not that so?-Of course, when the women get into my
debt, I must take note of what they bring to me with which to
pay off their debt; and that must pass through my books. I do not
take a note of all the transactions over the counter; it is only when
a woman runs into debt that anything appears in the books.
2498. Is this account taken from what you call the work-book?-
No; it is entered first in our ledgers, and now it has been
transferred to the work-book.
2499. Is the ledger a different book?-The work-book is a kind of
compound between the two. It was entered first in the one, and
then in the other.
2500. But it was because the woman was working for you that the
account happened to be put in that form?-Of course. I think that
was mostly the way in which the credit was got. She would just
creep in and then, and she was in the habit of getting things that
she asked for, and these were put into the book. That is the only
way in which I can account for her getting them. But I would
draw attention to the copy of her account, as showing that she got
goods she needed them and it was a mere subterfuge for her to say
that she got goods from the merchant although she did not knit for
him.
2501. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the
evidence of Elizabeth Robertson?-Nothing, except with regard to
these two items of it.
2502. When she was under examination she handed me this line
[showing line quoted in Elizabeth Robertson's evidence]; and I
have also got a line in these
'C. Y. 92.-Credit bearer value in goods for 18s.
'R. SINCLAIR & CO.
'J.J.B.
'22. 12. 71.'
Do you give out many of these lines in your business?-Yes, a
good many.
2503. How is that?-It is not our wish to give lines, if the women
would only take the value out at once; but when they have
bargained to take goods for their work or for their hosiery, and
they will not take them at the time, what are we to do?-We might
enter them in a book, but they prefer to have a line, and come with
it and get what they want marked on it later, whenever they want
the goods.
2504. What is the meaning of the initial letters at the
commencement of the line?-They are put there so that we may be
able to identify the lines at a glance and they correspond with the
same letters in the line-book, where a check is kept. The numbers
begin under each initial letter, and run to 100 consecutively until
that number is reached, and then we begin with another initial
letter. For instance, after C. W. we have C. X.
2505. There are two letters: how do you explain that?-Because,
when we get to the end of the alphabet we must distinguish; we
could not begin with again.
2506. In introducing this system of notation you began with?-
Yes, and went on to Z.
2507. You numbered these receipts or notes, or whatever they may
be called, A 1, A 2, and so on up to A 100, and then you went
through the alphabet with one letter until you came to Z 100?-
Yes.
2508. When you began to take A A 1, and so on?-I think it was A
B, until we came to the end of the alphabet again.
2509. Then you took BA, and so on to B Z, using the double letters
BA, 100 times, and the double letters BC 100 times?-Yes.
2510. How long is it since this system was introduced?-I have no
recollection how long it is since it began. It is not two years, I
think; but it may be more.
2511. Does that mean that you have issued some 6000 or 8000 of
these lines in two years?-I suppose so. It will just mean about
that.
2512. Can you give me any idea, or do your books give any idea,
within what time these lines are brought back to be liquidated?-
Sometimes in two hours, and sometimes longer. When we take
goods from the knitters, we generally, in order to prevent any
mistake, give them a receipt for them in that form; and having
other work to do when we are very busy, they take that in their
pocket and go away, and then they look in again when we have a
slack moment and get the value of it, sometimes on the very same
day. I don't know how often it is on the same day, but it is very
often.
2513. Are these lines only given to the people who sell you goods,
or are they given also to your work-people?-There are very few
of the work-people who got lines in that way. It is only when the
people selling goods that they may get such a line if they want it.
2514. Can you tell me any of your work-people who have got lines
in that way?-I cannot; but the work-book would show if such
lines had been given.
2515. In what way does the work-book show it?-By an entry to
the individual's debit. I think you will find very few of them.
2516. What do you call these things? Do you call them I O U's, or
receipts, or lines; or what are they?-They are just vouchers for
their value.
[Page 54]
2517. Is it a general practice in the trade in Lerwick to give these
lines?-It is only within the last few years that it has been
practised to any extent, and we would, much rather do away with
them if we could.
2518. How could they be done away with?-Just by giving the
people value for their goods when they bring them. That is the
only way I know.
2519. Do you mean the value in cash?-The value in cash or in
goods. If it cash tariff were introduced, which I suppose would be
better for the whole of us, it would save us all this bother.
2520. Do you think it would be better to have a cash system
introduced altogether?-It would be better for the trade, at any
rate.
2521. But the nominal price paid to the knitters would in that case
be less?-I think that, in some cases, not only the nominal but the
real price would be less.
2522. Do you mean that the knitter would really get less value for
her work?-I do mean that, as we have always endeavoured to
deal on that principle,-to sell on cash terms, and to take the very
least we could for the article in cash.
2523. You mean that you take the smallest profit you can on your
goods?-Yes. Suppose for instance, a woman comes in with a
shawl, the market value of which is 20s. that is the price I should
expect to get, and would get, for it.
2524. Do you mean that is the market value in Lerwick?-No; it is
the market value in the south. Suppose the value put upon it were
£1, I would only get 20s. for it in the south.
2525. Do you sell your goods to retail or wholesale dealers?-I
sell them wherever I can get them sold, but the greater part of
them are sold wholesale; that is, we sell them wholesale to retail
dealers.
2526. You sell them to retail dealers, so that you have only one
price, for your goods going south?-Yes.
2527. You heard Mr. Laurenson state that there was sometimes it
difference in the price which he charged, according as the sale was
one to dealer, or to a dealer who sold retail?-I understood Mr.
Laurenson to mean that he made a difference when he sold a shawl
to a private customer, and when he sold a dozen or two to a retail
dealer; and so do we.
2528. Is that the only difference you make in selling your
goods?-Yes; and we think that is only fair the trade.
2529. I interrupted you when you were putting the case of a shawl
worth 20s. What did you wish to say about that?-We fix our
lowest rate of profits, and we give the people goods the same as if
they had cash to lay down for them; and I can bring evidence to
that effect if you want it.
2530. Do you mean that you fix your lowest rate of profit upon the
hosiery goods you buy?-No; our lowest rate of profit on the
goods we sell. A third way of explaining it is, that we treat as cash
the goods which we buy. A shawl worth 20s. is reckoned by us as
a £1 note would be reckoned,-with this difference, that if a man
is laying down a £l note we would give him 5 per cent. discount
when he bought our goods. We consider that the trouble we have
with the shawls, and the time we lie out of our money, is worth 5
per cent.
2531. Then what you say comes to this: that upon your hosiery
goods you make no profit at all?-Not when they are once sold;
that is to say, when they are once bought, the profit lies in the
profit we have upon the goods. That is the only profit we have in
the matter.
2532. But upon the hosiery, looked at by itself, you do not make
any profit at all?-No; I say that I make none, and I swear to that
most emphatically.
2533. In other words, the profit you make upon your purchases of
hosiery is only the profit you make upon your sales of goods,
which are given in return for the hosiery?-Yes; in short, it is two
sales for one profit.
2534. That is to say, you are obliged to take the hosiery at the
market price in the south, in order to get payment for your drapery
and other goods?-With regard to that, I am not obliged to take
them, further than that is the only thing in the country that
reckoned as a kind of payment.
2535. It is the only thing which your purchasers have to give you
for your goods?-That is my meaning exactly.
2536. You were going to offer me some evidence of that?-I can
give evidence of it afterwards. My own employees can prove it,
also women who have been in my employment, and also people
who have been purchasing both for cash and goods.
2537. What can they prove?-They can prove that there is no
difference between the two prices, and that the price which I
charged is the lowest price I can fix.
2538. You are prepared to give evidence of this fact, that the price
you allow to the seller of hosiery in Shetland is the price you get
from the buyer in the south?-Yes, I can prove that. At least I can
prove that it is so on the whole, by comparison, the invoiced prices
of the goods sent south with the general prices of goods bought in
the country. Here is a list of them [producing trade list].
2539. Is this list what you send to your purchasing customers?-
Yes; and if you compare these prices with the prices of similar
goods bought at the counter of my shop, you will find that there is
no difference. The question was put to me, whether there would
be a difference between the nominal value a customer would
receive under the present system and if a cash system were
introduced. I say there would be a real difference, but ultimately
the merchant would be no loser. The difference would lie in this:
that if I were compelled to buy goods for cash, that is, if I could
not barter them, I would have no profit by giving the same rate that
I now give. That, I think, is plain from what I have already stated.
Then I would require to buy them at a discount equivalent to the
profit I now have on my goods, or else I could not carry on my
trade; and that would be the same with whoever dealt in these
articles. The cash price we can afford to give for Shetland goods
here is just the value we pay for the goods that we give in
exchange for them; and if we were to give more than that price,
there would be an end of the trade.
2540. Do you not mean that it is the value you pay for the goods
you give in exchange, plus your profit upon these goods?-I say
the price we could afford to pay in cash is just the price we do pay
cash, which is paid not to the knitter, but to the party in the south
that we buy our goods from. Our goods cost us cash: that cash,
thousands of pounds every year, would go into the hands of the
knitters here; but in that case we would just give them that money,
less the profit we have on the goods. That is speaking of the thing
in a broad sense. There would be a real loss to the knitters in that
case where they were fairly dealt with, because they could not get
goods without a profit, and they in that case would have to put
their hands into their pockets and give a few shillings more. For
instance, suppose the case of a 20s. shawl: they get 20s. of real
good value for it under the present system. If I were obliged to pay
in cash, I suppose I could not give more than 16s. or 17s. for it;
and if the individual wanted the very same thing from me which
she can now get for the 20s., yet under the other system she would
require to go to some other shop and purchase it, paying 3s. or 4s.
more for it than she now does.
2541. Is this what it comes to: that if a cash system were
introduced, the knitter would be worse off, because the merchant
would require to take two profits instead of one?-He would only
have one profit to take.
2542. But if it were a cash system, would he have to take two
profits?-No, he would not take two profits.
2543. If there were a cash system, would not the [Page 55] buyer
of the hosiery from the knitter require to make a profit upon the
hosiery?-Decidedly.
2544. And further, would not the seller of the goods to her require
to have a profit upon these goods as well?-Certainly.
2545. Therefore there would be two profits?-Yes; there would be
two profits taken from the knitter, but not by me.
2546. But I am putting the case of the knitter, and in that case the
buyer of the hosiery might be a different person altogether?-That
is my meaning.
2547. The knitter would have to sell her hosiery at such a price
that the hosiery merchant would make a profit on his re-sale, while
she would have to buy the goods at such a price that the dealer
from whom she bought them would make something like the
present profit which you make upon them?-Yes. Suppose we
were to purchase for cash, and the cash system were introduced, in
all probability the drapers would be simply drapers, and not
hosiers at all; or they might withdraw their capital from the
drapery business and embark it in the hosiery business altogether.
2548. Then what you mean to make out is, that at present you are
making only one profit?-I do mean to make that out, for it is true;
and I am very thankful when I can get it.
2549. How do you prove that there is only one profit at present?-
By looking at the prices at which the goods are bought and sold.
2550. Let us take a single instance: you have put in a wholesale
trade list for 1870?-Yes; we have later ones, but that will be
sufficient for the purpose. There is no difference on them.
2551. Is that list issued at the beginning of the year?-I should like
that others proved that, and not me. You can get it from my
employees, or from my books, or from people who buy from me.
2552. In what way do you suggest that it should be shown? By this
wholesale trade list, and by taking a variety of instances from your
books in which prices have been paid for the articles that are
mentioned here?-Yes.
2553. How would that be shown in your books?-By entries to the
knitters whom we deal with.
2554. We could not find that by the entries in the work-book,
because they show it only in detail?-I am not speaking of the
work-book just now.
2555. It could only be shown by the sales?-Yes; and of course
that list has been prepared from the prices which we pay for the
goods.
2556. Do you mean the prices to dealers, or prices to people who
sell them over the counter to you?-I mean the prices that we pay
to the people for them, and which I pay over to them.
2557. But I think you said that when you buy the goods over the
counter, no record is kept of these prices?-No; but the people that
we buy them from would tell you the prices they get for them. In
some instances, where debts have been paid by means of these
goods, there may be entries in the books which will show the
prices.
2558. Is there any entry in your books at all of your purchases of
hosiery? I rather understood you to say that there was no such
entry?-I think I said that when goods were presented for sale,
there was note taken of what was given for them; but when goods
come from the north isles or from people who send them to us
from a distance, we enter them in the books.
2559. Are there dealers in the north isles who send goods to
you?-Either dealers or private individuals may send us falls or
various other things, and the entries with regard to them will show
the prices given for them.
2560. These transactions will appear in the day-book?-I think so.
2561.You think Mr. Sandison, your bookkeeper, would be better
able to point these out than you?-He would be better able to lay
his hand on them; but sometimes we buy from dealers and pay
cash for them, and same thing applies in that case which Mr.
Laurenson stated, that we charge a small percentage on these
goods, because we pay in cash for them.
2562. You put in the trade list, and you also put in a copy invoice,
which you have shown to me, containing the prices at which you
have sold the goods there mentioned?-Yes. It shows that there is
a certain discount allowed; but that discount does not come off the
profits charged on the hosiery, but off the sales of goods I give for
them.
2563. Do you calculate that there is a larger profit upon hosiery
goods which are made by your own knitters than on those which
you buy and sell in the way you have described?-That is it
question I have sometimes asked myself; and, taking the thing
altogether, I don't think there is much difference.
2564. Don't you allow a little for the extra trouble and risk you
have with your knitters?-There is a certain market price that we
cannot get beyond. We must take the price in the market. Unless
one merchant was able to monopolize the trade altogether, and
force up the prices, he would not get more than the market price of
the goods.
2565. You have said that the footing on which you settle with your
knitters and with those who sell to you is, that the bargain between
you is that they are to take goods?-That is the understanding. We
do not make any formal bargain.
2566. Is that bargain made with the knitters whom you employ at
the time when you give out the wool?-I have said already that we
make no formal bargain, but it is generally understood that we pay
them in kind. They know that, and consequently they very seldom
ask for anything else. But we don't stick entirely to that.
2567. You sometimes give them cash?-Yes.
2568. Is it regarded as a great favour to pay them a considerable
sum in cash?-I may give an instance. The general price paid for
knitting a fall of Shetland yarn is about 1s. That is about the
average price, although the coarser quality may be lower than that.
The yarn for that fall costs us from 6d. to 7d. That is paid in cash;
and the girl is paid part in cash and part in goods, or it may be all
in goods. That brings up the cost to 19d.; but if it is wanted black
we must pay freight south, in order to have it dyed, and freight
back to Shetland. We also pay for the dyeing of it; and these
things altogether come to about 11/2d. per fall-that is 1s. 81/2d.;
and then there is dressing, 1d.
2569. When do you send it south for dyeing?-When it is made.
2570. And do you bring it back here to be dressed?-Yes; that is
an additional expense upon it, which has never been pointed out.
2571. Could it not be dressed in the south?-No, it could not.
2572. It must come back here simply for the dressing?-Yes; we
could not value it unless we got it back and sorted it, and knew the
value of it.
2573. You don't know the value of it until it is dressed?-We do
not ask ourselves the value before then. We know the average
value of them pretty nearly; but we send them south, and get them
back dyed, and then we must dress them. There are a number of
them which may be damaged, either in the working or the dyeing,
and that detracts from their value, and that very fall I am now
referring to, when it comes to be sold, will not bring more than
perhaps 2s. In that way you can calculate where our profit lies.
There are cheaper falls that do not bring more than 18d., and
sometimes even lower.
2574. Then I understand you to say that in every bargain with a
knitter, and generally with a seller, of a shawl, the understanding is
that they are to take the price in goods?-Yes; that has been so
time out of mind: I remember a time about forty years ago, when it
was different and when there were two prices on goods which they
sold.
2575. There were two prices then-one for cash, and the other for
goods?-Yes; perhaps from 20 to per cent. of difference. I
remember hearing that question discussed at my father's fire when
I was a mere youth. I have been told, although I do know it
[Page 56] myself, because I was not in the trade then, a woman
may have bought a piece of goods for 16d., when a party paying
cash for it only paid 1s. The more intelligent of, the natives
thought that was an iniquitous thing; but then it was always known
and done avowedly, and the people yielded to it. They said it was
not possible for them to take barter, and sell their goods at the
same rate because there was so much risk and outlay. That reason
never appeared satisfactory to me; and it was not until I came
behind the scenes, as it were, that I saw the reason for it was, that
the value given for Shetland goods was far beyond what it really
was worth in the market. Its real value in the market was about
the same amount less than what was charged as an addition upon
the goods. What I mean is that, supposing a woman came in with
a pair of stockings, the real market price of which was 2s., but for
which she wished 2s. 6d., the merchant, in order to secure a sale
for his goods, would give her goods in exchange of the nominal
value of 2s. 6d., but he would put 3d. a yard on the price of the
goods which he gave in exchange. That explains how it is that a
person knowing the value of the articles, seeing the purchase
which the woman might have made, and hearing the price of it,
might have said that they were about 25 per cent. too high,
whereas in reality they were not so. She had merely been getting
value for her goods, although she did not know it; and it would not
have made any difference; although it had been as many pounds
higher, while the relative proportions were kept up between the
value of the two articles.
2576. Is that done now?-Not that I know of.
2577. If a woman puts a higher price on her goods, is it not the
usual thing for a merchant to put a little additional on the price of
the goods which he is to give her in exchange?-I don't know
what other merchants do, but we never do it. Only the other day, a
woman carried out two shawls which I could have bought if I had
departed from our usual practice, but I thought they were priced
too high. I could have sold the shawls at 1s. or 2s. lower, but I
would not buy them these terms. We have one fixed price for cash
and goods. I am not aware whether the practice I have mentioned
exists now in the town; I don't think it does. When I commenced
business I made it a point fix my price in that way, and I have
always adhered that. I was told by some parties I would never do
business in that manner; but I had some faith in common sense,
and I hoped the people would come to see that they were as well
dealt with in taking the real cash value and getting the real cash
value; so that we never give a higher price than we consider the
thing is worth in the market, and we do not give lower.
2578. You say your understanding is, that goods are to be taken in
payment, but that cash is given to a small extent: do you not
consider that to be a departure from the understanding?-
Decidedly.
2579. You do that, as a favour to the knitter?-Yes; and I wish it
to be distinctly understood, that in every case when I give 1s. of
cash, I consider it is just 2d. out of my pocket.
2580. Would you not have that profit if the 1s. was spent in your
shop?-Yes.
2581. With regard to the lines or receipts which you issue, can you
say whether they are generally presented at your shop by the
parties to whom they were originally given out?-They are made
payable to the bearer, and they may not be presented by these
parties.
2582. But, in point of fact, are they generally presented by the
parties to whom they have been given out?-It is impossible to
know who they have been given out to, or who brings them back.
2583. Then what is the purpose of your keeping this register of
them?-It is a check upon the lines. If we had no check of that
kind, we would not know what lines were out.
2584. And you would not know what amount was lying out in that
way?-No; that is one reason for keeping it. Another thing is, that
if a line was lost, and its value paid to another person who had
found it, we could see by this book when it was paid.
2585. Could it show to whom it was paid?-No.
2586. I suppose the lines themselves are destroyed when they have
been settled for?-Yes.
2587. You have no means of telling from your books, whether they
have been presented by the original creditor in them, or by
another?-No.
2588. And you don't know about that from your own personal
knowledge?-As regards my own personal knowledge, I know
that, in the generality of cases, they are presented by the parties to
whom they have been given originally.
2589. Does that lead you to conclude that this system of lines is
not a new kind of currency that has been generally adopted in
Shetland?-I never heard of that.
2590. Does one of these lines pass from hand to hand, in payment
for what the creditor in it wants?-Not to my knowledge. It is
only now or lately that I have ever heard of such a thing being
done.
2591. You have not known of them being transferred to other
hands, and being presented by some one from whom the knitter
has obtained other goods or services?-There never was any such
thing stated to me.
2592. Of course you pay the value of the line to any one who
presents it?-Yes. There was a girl, Borthwick, examined here,
who said she had to sell her tea at half-price, in order to get other
things which she wanted. I spoke to her about it, and said I had
never heard of such a thing being done before, and that she must
be a great fool to do anything of the kind; for she had come to us
and said that she wanted the money, she would have got it upon
giving a small discount for it.
2593. Have you actually given money upon that discount when
requested?-I have.
2594. That is to say, one of these lines has been presented to you
and cash asked for it?-Yes; part cash. I have sometimes given
cash on these lines, although it was goods that was bargained for.
2595. The lines bear to be payable in goods?-Yes; but when I
saw that the person was really requiring the cash, and that it was
not just a 'try-on,' as it were, I took 2d. off the 1s. and paid in
cash.
2596. May that have occurred often?-No; very seldom.
2597. Has it been lately?-Yes. I was obliged to make that
deduction, because, if I had not done so, it would have opened a
door for a system which would have robbed us of every penny of
profit. If we were obliged to pay cash instead of goods, we would
have no profit at all.
2598. But that has occurred sometimes?-I think it has only
occurred twice in the whole of my transactions.
2599. When a discount is taken in that way, how is the entry made
in the line-book?-The lines are entered when they are finally paid
up. The way in which they are paid does not appear here at all.
2600. Then that discount will not appear in the book?-No; but I
may say that I often give small sums of cash on these lines without
taking a discount, where I think the person is really in need of it.
2601. I think you said these lines were very seldom given to
women whom you employ to knit for you?-Very seldom, I think.
2602. Can you name any of these women who have got them?-I
cannot; perhaps Mr. Sandison can. He is more in the way of
settling with these people than I am.
2603. Have you any dealings in stockings and the commoner kinds
of hosiery?-The price-list will show that.
2604. Is the system of dealing in these just the same as you have
already described?-The same principle applies to all the trade.
2605. That kind of goods is generally brought in from the country,
I understand?-Yes, generally.
2606. Is it the case that people coming in from the country take
goods more readily than the town?-There are very few of the
people from the country who ask for cash, but they are now
beginning [Page 57] to do it. They think the Truck Commission
will force us to give cash.
2607. What is their reason for wanting cash, if they are as well off
with goods?-I suppose it is just for same reason, that we all want
cash.
2608. But if they get goods, why should they not be content with
that?-I don't know. We have no objection to give them cash, if
they will only be content to take less of it, on the principle have
already explained.
2609. Have you ever stated to the knitters who were coming to sell
to you, that they had better take ready money and take less of it?-
I have. It would very great deal of bother if they would do so.
2610. What have they said to that proposal?-They have never
entered heartily into it. There was a case I may refer to, not of
women employed to knit for us but of women from whom we
bought shawls over the counter which corroborates what I have
already said on that subject. I cannot now recall the names the
parties, but I would know their faces at once.
2611. Were they women from Dunrossness?-Three girls came
into my shop, each of them having a shawl to sell worth £1. At
that time the noise had come up about cash payments, and I said to
them, 'Now, what would you take for these in money? I am not
saying that I will give you money, but what would you take for
them in money?' One of them said, 'Oh, I ken you will just be
going to give us money.' I said, 'Why? Don't you think the goods
you get cost us money?' She said, 'I ken that fine. I will give my
20s. shawl for 18s. 6d.' I said, I could not give her 18s. 6d. for it,
and asked her if she would take 17s. She said, 'No,' and that it
would be most unconscionable to take 3s. off the price of a shawl.
I said, 'I don't think it, because when I sell the shawl again, I can
only get 20s. for it, and then there is a discount of 5 per cent. taken
off.
2612. I suppose that bit of trading came to nothing: they did not
take money?-No; they did not money; but another one said, 'I
would not sell my shawl for 18s. 6d. or 19s. either, for I see a plaid
in your shop that I want for my shawl; and what good would it do
me to sell you the shawl for 17s., and then take 3s. out of my
pocket to pay you in addition, when you are willing to give me the
plaid in exchange for the shawl?' That was her answer to me.
2613. Was one of these women Catherine Leslie?-I think so.
Leslie was her surname, but her first name I cannot recollect.
2614. There were some payments made by you to Mary Ann
Sinclair for meal. Have you often paid accounts to tradesmen for
meal?-Not often for meal.
2615. Or for provisions?-Very seldom. We sometimes pay small
sums for such things when the people want them.
2616. But you are not able to say whether these goods are paid for
directly to the dealer or through the hands of the women?-We
sometimes pay for them to the dealer. For instance, if a woman
was due an account to a shoemaker or any other person, and told
us to pay a part of it for them, we would do it.
2617. Does the tradesman come to your shop and get the
payment?-No; we just settle with him. He may come to the
shop for it, or he may not; but it is very seldom that such things
happen-so seldom, as not to be worth mentioning. The case
of Mary Ann Sinclair to which you referred was just a cash
transaction.
2618. You remember that now?-I remember that it was a cash
transaction. She had to get cash from us to pay her meal with; but
the particulars of the transaction I cannot recollect.
2619. She wanted the meal?-Yes; she wanted it, and we did not
have it.
2620. But there were two transactions of that kind which she was
concerned; one in which she was paid 11s. 3d. for meal, and
another in which the entry is, 'Paid William Smith for meal.' Do
you recollect about these transactions?-She had to get her meal
from some one; but I really cannot say what took place
2621. I want to know what you think about the way in which these
women get their living. Have you anything to say about that?-If
Mary Ann Sinclair, or any one of her sisters, had come and said, 'I
want so much money for meal,' I would have gone to the counter
and given her out the money, and she would have gone to any one
she pleased for it; or she might have come when I was out, and she
could not get the money; or there might not have been money at
the counter at the time; and in that case I would say 'Go over to
William Smith and get half a boll of meal, and I will pay him
again.' I don't think there was any great breach of honesty in that.
2622. I do not say there was; I only want to know your opinion
about the way in which those women supply themselves with
provisions. Some of them I find are entirely dependent on the
proceeds of their knitting for getting supplies of food; is not that
so?-Yes.
2623. Now, if they take all the payment for their knitting, or the
greater part of it, in goods, I don't quite see as yet where the
money comes from with which they pay for their living. Have you
considered that point at all?-I have not. They have never
complained to me about it.
2624. Don't they say, when they come to you and beg you to give
them a little money rather than goods, that they must have
something to live upon?-I never heard that yet. It is very seldom
they ask for money.
2625. Many of them live with their parents, and are provided for
in that way; and when a woman is married, her husband provides
for her; but there are single women in Lerwick, are there not, who
depend upon their knitting mostly or entirely for their living, and
how do they manage if they are paid almost entirely in goods?-
These are the cases I have just been explaining to you. For
instance, there are the Sinclair girls.
2626. They come and beg for a little money from you in that
way?-Yes.
2627. Are there any others?-There are many others who get a
little money.
2628. Who are some of these others?-I really don't know that I
can go into the matter more fully than I have done. There are
several benevolent ladies in the town who buy knitting from these
women. They are not bound to work for us; and these ladies, I
suppose, pay them in cash. That is one of the ways in which it
may be accounted for.
2629. Do you know whether the women prefer to sell to these
ladies or to you?-They have never told me anything about that.
They just sell their goods where they think they will get the best
bargain; but there is this to be said about it, that if they had not
some place like ours, they would not get rid of one half the goods
they make. The greater part of our knitters are in the country.
2630. And they knit with their own wool?-Yes.
2631. They are mostly the daughters of labourers, or farmers, or
fishermen?-Yes; and they spend their leisure hours in knitting.
2632. You have no knowledge of the fact that there is often a want
of food among these knitting women?-I never heard that they
were really in want.
2633. Have they not stated that as a reason for your giving them
money?-No; they have been very reticent on that point if it is a
fact. I should be very sorry to know that there were any poor
persons starving when I could help them.
2634. I suppose the character of the Shetland people is such that
they don't like to confess their poverty if they can help it?-That
may be so. They may be too prudent on that point, for all I know;
but I suppose there is a great variety of character here as
everywhere else.
2635. Has this been a fair season in the knitting trade?-The
season is getting over in some departments. It is generally in the
fall that we sell most.
2636. I don't mean for the sales, but for your purchases?-Well,
the busy season is getting over.
[Page 58]
2637. I see from your line-book that on December 13th you gave
out about 20 of these acknowledgments; on the 14th, about 20
also; 15th, 18; 16th, 17; 17th, 38; 18th, 10; 20th, 24; and on the
21st, 29. Would that be a busy season of the year?-Yes; very
busy.
2638. Perhaps during the rest of the year you were not giving out
quite so many each day?-Perhaps not.
2639. The dates of payment are all entered in the book, showing
how long the lines have been in currency?-Yes; these have not
been long in currency.
2640. I see that a great number of them have been paid up on the
very day they were issued?-Yes; it was a system which I adopted
in order to prevent any mistake or trusting to memory when I
purchase a parcel of hosiery from a woman. Instead of trusting to
memory, I give her a receipt for it, and she takes it with her. She
may go anywhere else she likes, and then she comes back and gets
the value of the line from me; it may be on the same day or two
days afterwards, or it may be weeks. The greater part of these
lines need not have appeared in the book at all, because they were
paid up immediately afterwards. We might have kept a
memorandum of them in the shop, and the people might have
come and got the value afterwards. I believe other merchants do
that, but I thought it was better to give the people an
acknowledgment for their goods at the moment they brought them
in.
2641. Do these lines go mostly to women in the country or in the
town?-Just to any person who brings in goods. There is no
distinction.
2642. You cannot say that the one class of women get them more
commonly than the other?-No; I cannot say that they do.
2643. Is there any other point you wish to speak to?-I wish to
refer to a statement made by one of the previous witnesses,
Catherine Borthwick. I was present when she said that she could
get no cash, and also that there was a time when there was 5s. 6d.
due to her, and she had asked me for 1s. which I did not give to
her. I had no recollection of the transaction at the time, and I have
none still; but on referring to her account, I cannot find any
occasion on which she had 5s. 6d. to get when she came to settle.
I now show her account, from which it appears that she did get
cash.
2644. Do you remember whether her statement referred to a sale
of goods or to money that was due to her for knitting?-I
understood she referred to transactions she had had in the shop
with regard to her knitting. At least that was my impression at the
time.
2645. But if it were a sale of goods that she spoke of, that would
not be entered in your books at all?-No, not if it were a sale of
goods.
2646. Is there any other point you wish to speakto?-I should wish
to make a remark or two about the value of a Shetland shawl. It
was stated before the last Commission that a Shetland shawl could
be made for very little money. I heard Mr. Laurenson's
evidence about that, and I was rather surprised to hear that a 30s.
shawl could be made for so little as he stated, or anything
approaching to it. It certainly has not been my experience. For a
30s. shawl the worsted would cost 10s.; and if Mr. Laurenson
meant a real Shetland shawl, I should say it would cost 12s. at any
rate. I consider that the prime cost of a Shetland shawl that would
bring 30s. would be this: thirty-six cuts at 4d., 12s.; knitting, 14s.;
dressing, 6d.-in all, 26s. 6d.
2647. The 30s. at which that shawl would sell in the south would
be the price charged by the retail dealer there?-No. I don't know
what the retail dealer's charge for it would be.
2648. Then the 30s. is your charge for it?-Yes.
2649. That is 3s. 6d. you would have on it?-Yes.
2650. Is not that a profit?-Well; it is not a very heavy one.
2651. But still there is a profit?-Did I ever say that we had no
profit?
2652. I thought you rather made out that the only profit you had
was on the goods you sold?-I am speaking here of the cash value
of the thing. We don't get our wool for barter; the wool costs us
cash
2653. You allow something for interest on the price of the
wool?-Yes. I say that is what I would have to pay for a shawl of
that value in cash if I were buying it, or if I were trying to get it
made.
2654. You would pay 26s. 6d., and you would sell it at 30s.?-
Yes.
2655. Do you not call the 3s. 6d. a profit?-I do; but then in that
case there is nothing else for a profit.
2656. You are supposing that you pay the 26s. 6d. in cash? If you
were paying for the shawl in goods, would you pay 26s. 6d., or
anything more?-If I were paying for it in goods, I would pay 30s.
There might 6d. less or 6d. more; but as far as my experience goes
of this kind of goods, and selling them at a wholesale price, I could
not expect to realize a higher price for them than I pay, taking
discounts and all together.
2657. What is the kind of evidence you are to give me to prove
that there is no profit on a 30s. shawl which you pay for in
goods?-I have no evidence to offer as to that.
2658. Except your trade list?-That would be taking a wide view
of the thing. It would embrace the whole trade. The case I have
given is a special one in contradiction of the statement made,
which was a false one that a Shetland shawl could be made at that
price.
2659. The list enables you to say what you sell the articles for, and
you leave me to find out the price you pay from particular
cases?-Yes; and if an examination of my books would help you
in that, they are open to you. I am also prepared to give you the
names of a number of women who would be able to tell you what
prices they get for their goods.
2660. Can you give me any particular kind of goods which you
think would be a fair test of that?-You may take the winter
shawls, white, brown, and grey, natural colours, and straight
borders.
2661. Do you think that would be a fair test?-I think it would.
2662. But there are no entries in your books which will show at
what price you bought these shawls?-There may be. If a woman
brings in a shawl, and gets so much goods at the time, then the
balance only might be marked down, and that would be no guide
to you; but at other times the whole price is marked.
2663. That is, where there are credit balances with people who
come to you with shawls?-Yes.
2664. Which book will show that?-The day-book or women's
ledger.
2665. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I don't think there
is anything else.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, ROBERT LINKLATER, examined.
2666. You carry on business as a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
2667. You purchase hosiery, and you keep a stock of drapery
goods, and tea, and other articles?-Yes. Tea is the only thing in
the grocery line which I keep.
2668. Have you heard the evidence of the preceding witnesses?-
Only of the last witness.
2669. Is the manner of conducting business in your establishment
similar to that which has been described as being carried on in Mr.
Sinclair's?-Very similar; there are some differences.
2670. You deal with knitters of two kinds-women who knit with
your wool, and those who sell to you?-Yes.
2671. In both cases are the settlements usually made by means of
goods which they take from you?-Yes, principally.
2672. In what proportion is money paid to women who knit with
your wool?-I cannot say what the proportion may be.
[Page 59]
2673. But is there a much larger proportion of the prices taken in
goods?-Yes, very much larger.
2674. Is it the general rule that it is to be paid in goods?-Yes, it is
the understanding that goods are given out.
2675. And that any money that is paid is the exception?-Yes.
2676. Is the dealing with these women usually carried on by means
of pass-books?-The greater number of the knitters whom I
employ have pass-books.
2677. And these pass-books are transcripts of the accounts kept in
your ledger?-Yes.
2678. You ledger, I presume, is kept on the principle of having a
page for the account of each woman?-Yes; or sometimes a page
for two.
2679. On the one side there are the entries of goods got by the
woman, and on the other there are entered the payments due to her
for knitting?-There is double money column which shows both
the credit and debit on the same side.
2680. How many women do you generally employ to knit for
you?-I could not say exactly; but I think there might be over 300.
2681. Are these scattered all over the island?-Yes, all over the
country.
2682. Is it a subject of complaint with these women that they do
not get payment for their work in money?-No; I have not heard
much complaint about that.
2683. The understanding is, that the payment is to be in goods?-
Yes, it is the understanding that goods are to be taken when the
work is given out; but I give a good deal of money.
2681. Is it considered a matter of favour when a woman gets
payment in money when she asks for it?-No, I don't think it.
2685. If a woman asks for money rather than goods, is it given to
her as a matter of course?-As a matter of course.
2686. Is that done whenever she asks for money?-As far as my
recollection goes, it is. The greater number of the knitters whom I
employ live in the country, and they very seldom ask for money.
When they come in with their work, I generally ask them what
they want, and they select the goods which they require.
2687. Do you know Mrs. Jemima Brown or Tait?-Yes; her sister,
Harriet Brown, is the only one I have in my books.
2688. Have you ever told Mrs. Tait, or any of her sisters, that you
could not give them money, and that you never did it?-I don't
remember doing that. I don't remember any money being asked
by them.
2689. Is it likely you said that?-I don't think I said it. I don't
think I would say it, if I had goods of hers in my hand.
2690. Did she knit with your wool?-Yes. I have no recollection
of her asking for money and being refused.
2691. I suppose a knitter of that kind is not likely to ask for money
unless there is a balance coming to her upon her account?-It is
not likely, and I think there is rather a balance against her.
2692. Is it a probable thing that you may have refused to give her
money?- I don't think I did so.
2693. May your shopman, Mr. Anderson, have done so?-Not so
far as I know.
2694. Do you issue any kind of lines or acknowledgments for the
balances upon sales made to you?-I give no lines.
2695. If a party comes and sells a shawl to you, and does not wish
goods to the whole value of it, what is done?-I understand you to
refer to goods bought over the counter; in that case I mark the
balance down in a book. If they come with a shawl or any other
article, and sell it over the counter, and if they don't wish goods to
the whole value, I mark the balance down in any name that is
given to me.
2696. In what way is that entered?-It is entered on the back of the
day-book by itself.
2697. Is there a special place in the day-book for making entries of
that kind?-Yes.
2698. They are put under the particular date?-Yes.
2699. And are these balances generally settled up within a short
time afterwards?-Generally.
2700. The party comes back soon to you for goods?-Sometimes
soon, and sometimes she delays a good while.
2701. Is it usual for a party who has a balance of that kind to ask to
get it in cash?-No; that is not usual at all.
2702. When you buy a shawl in that way, do you consider it to be
part of your bargain that the payment is to be taken in goods?-
Yes; it is distinctly sold for goods in exchange, and paid for in that
way.
2703. Is that because there is a distinct understanding to that effect
prevailing among the people, or is it stated at the time when the
bargain is made?-It is not stated at the time, but there is a distinct
understanding that payment is to be taken in goods.
2704. Will you show me the way in which these balances are
entered?-[Produces day-book.]. The entry is merely the name of
the party and the amount left. I generally put the date upon the top
of the page but not the date for each entry.
2705. Then all these entries at the end of the book are entries of
balances due by you?-Yes.
2706. And when a party comes and gets the goods, the balance is
marked as 'settled'?-Yes.
2707. Where there is a sum like 3s. 4d. or 7s. 101/2d. due, there
must sometimes be a little difficulty in making it square exactly, is
there not?-No difficulty whatever.
2708. Is there not a difficulty in getting the exact quantity of goods
to answer to that balance?-No, I don't see any difficulty.
2709. The woman may want so many yards of cotton, or a pair of
gloves, or a packet of tea, and she may bring up the sum to 7s. 6d.
or 7s. 3d., there being 7s. 101/2d. due to her; in such a case, how do
you square off the balance?-She always takes the full value of it
when she comes to settle.
2710. If the goods she gets come to something more than the
balance due to her, does she pay the rest in money?-If it comes to
anything more, she either pays it in money, or she may have
another piece of goods to sell.
2711. Suppose 7s. 101/2d. is the sum at her credit, and she takes
various articles amounting to 7s. 7d., leaving 31/2d. over, might she
not have some difficulty in selecting an article to cover that?-No,
I don't find any difficulty in that at all.
2712. I suppose you or your shopman can suggest something very
easily?-Well, there is always something required.
2713. Have you often been importuned by these women to pay
them in money, because they could not supply themselves with the
means of living unless they were paid for their work partly in
cash?-No; there are many cases where cash is given.
2714. These are cases where the people were in circumstances to
require it?-Yes.
2715. And I suppose you are acquainted with these cases?-Yes; I
generally know the people who are actually requiring money when
they ask for it.
2716. Do people often ask for money in that way?-Not often.
2717. Then there are few of them who are in circumstances to
require money?-I should not say that. I think there are many of
them who require money.
2718. Do you mean that many of them are in need of money
payments for their knitting, in order to provide themselves with the
necessaries of life?-In the town there are a good many who at
particular seasons of the year have other ways of working outside
as well as knitting.
2719. For these, do they get money payments?-Yes.
2720. Or they have friends with whom they live?-Yes; and in the
country there are a great many who live with their parents.
2721. But there are some women who depend entirely upon their
knitting for a living?-I believe there are.
[Page 60]
2722. You don't know any of them yourself?-I could not mark
out any one.
2723. But when you do meet with a woman of that description,
and have dealings with her, cash payments must sometimes be
made?-Yes; it little cash.
2724. If she takes her goods from you and only little cash, how do
you suppose she supplements her means of living?-Just in the
way I have stated, by working outside at the proper season of the
year.
2725. Is that in the fish-curing business?-There is fish-curing, but
there is other work outside besides that.
2726. Do you agree with the preceding witness, that there are two
prices for hosiery goods bought-a cash price, and a price when
paid in goods?-I very seldom buy goods for cash.
2727. But if you were doing so, would you have two prices?-I
would not give the same price in cash as in goods.
2728. Do you also agree with his statement, that where you buy a
shawl or other Shetland hosiery for goods, you do not get any
profit except the profit which you have upon the goods?-I would
not say that.
2729. In pricing a shawl, do you allow a certain margin for your
own profit?-There must be that; because we get a very great deal
of bad stock, and a good many of the things lie on our hands for a
considerable time before we can realize what they cost us, and
therefore we must have a margin for profit.
2730. There has been a statement made, that a shawl which sells in
the south for 30s. can be made in Shetland for 26s. 6d.; do you
agree with that?-Yes; from about 25s. to 26s. 6d.
2731. You think that statement is about correct?-Yes.
2732. Is that the price you would give in cash for such a shawl?-I
am not prepared to say that. Until a cash tariff comes in, I could
not decidedly say what I would give for it.
2733. Is that because of the rarity of your dealings in cash?-It is
not exactly that; I should think that there would be an ordinary
profit.
2734. I am speaking of a shawl that would sell in the south for
30s.; would the price you give for that shawl in goods be 26s.
6d.?-No; would be nearer 30s. in goods, perhaps about 28s. 6d.
2735. And if you were to buy it for cash, the price would be from
25s. to 26s.?-Perhaps about 26s.
2736. Then, if a similar shawl were made by your own knitters,
how would you calculate the cost of production? would you supply
a certain amount of Shetland wool?-Yes.
2737. How much would it require?-I think it would require about
35 or 36 cuts at 4d.-12s.; 13s. for the knitting of the shawl, and
6d. for the dressing; making 25s. 6d. That is for a white shawl,
without speaking of dyeing at all.
2738. Do you deal in the commoner hosiery?-Yes.
2739. Is the system pursued in that business the same as you have
described?-Yes.
2740. There is no difference that you think worth referring to?-
No.
2741. Do you agree generally with Mr. Sinclair on all the other
points he has spoken to?-I do.
2742. You have pointed out some differences in answer to my
questions with regard to several of the points, but you don't
remember anything else on which you incline to differ from
him?-No; I think there is very little in which I would be inclined
to differ from him.
2743. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I should wish to
make one explanation with regard to the evidence given in
Edinburgh about the cost of the worsted for a 30s. shawl.
2744. That evidence has already been spoken to by Mr.
Laurenson?-I did not hear his evidence.
2745. He stated that the worsted for a 30s. shawl would come to at
least 10s.?-If it is Shetland wool, the worsted for a 30s. shawl
would cost me about 12s.
2746. If a 30s. shawl is made with any other kind of wool, is there
a difference in the cost of the wool?-There would be a difference
of about 3s.
2747. The English wool would be about 3s. cheaper?-Yes.
2748. And the shawl would sell for how much?-I suppose for
about that much less, or about 27s.
2749. A shawl exactly the same in other respects would be made
out of English wool for 3s. less?-Yes; for 2s. or 3s. less.
2750. And it would also sell in the market for 2s. or 3s. less?-
Yes.
2751. The knitting in that case would be paid at the same rate?-
Yes.
2752. Do you buy much wool in Shetland?-We buy all the fine
wool we can get. In fact, we cannot get supplied with as much
Shetland wool as we want.
2753. You don't buy it to resell?-No; I just buy it for my own
use.
2754. Is it the fact that some of your Shetland hosiery is sold
without any profit at all?- There is some of it sold below cost
price when it comes to be bad stock.
2755. Are gentlemen's drawers, for instance, sold without a
profit?-I think they are sold at no reduction.
2756. Do you make any profit upon them?-Yes, I make a profit.
2757. You sell them south at a higher rate than you pay to the
knitters for them?-Yes; at a shade higher, some of them.
2758. I have had evidence today from one gentleman that he
bought them and sold them at a lower price. Do you think that is
the case?-It is quite possible, and I have known instances of that
with myself.
2759. Does that happen with you in some kinds of goods?-Yes;
with certain kinds of goods which are produced in larger quantities
than are required.
2760. But that over-production does not continue over a long
period of time?-It does in the knitting trade with myself. I don't
pay off any of the knitters; I keep them on.
2761. Can they not turn their attention to some other kinds of work
when there is too much stock of a particular kind?-It is generally
lacework, veils or shawls, that I give out for knitting.
2762. But when there is an over-production of that kind of goods,
can the knitters not turn their hands to something else?-They do
so occasionally.
2763. So that you have not an increasing stock of goods which you
cannot sell at a profit?-Very often they cannot get the wool with
which to make the coarser sort of goods. It is not to be got, and
there is a very large proportion of the Shetland wool sent south,
and sold as raw material.
2764. Then the women are restricted to the articles for which they
have suitable wool?-Yes; both those who knit for themselves,
and those who knit with the wool which we give out.
2765. That is to say, you have not always the kind of wool that you
want?-No; we cannot get a sufficient quantity of fine Shetland
wool; but I don't give out any wool for making coarse goods, only
the lace goods. I don't give out wool for such things as men's
underclothing and stockings.
2766. Have you anything else to say?-No; there is nothing more
that occurs to me to say.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JAMES TULLOCH, examined.
2767. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-I am.
2768. You keep a drapery store?-Yes.
2769. Do you sell any other goods?-The only grocery goods I sell
are tea and soap.
2770. Do you purchase hosiery?-My chief business in it is
purchasing it. I have very few knitters employed.
2771. Do you pay them in money or goods?-It is the
understanding that they are to be paid in goods; but I often give a
few shillings when they ask for it, [Page 61] both when purchasing
and when I employ the women to knit. I have only one or two
persons knitting for me in Lerwick just now, and not more than
three or four that I remember of in the country. My business in
that way is mostly done by purchase.
2772. Do your knitters have pass-books?-No; the account with
them is just kept in the day-book and ledger.
2773. You have an account in the ledger with each knitter?-Yes.
2774. Does it show what proportion of the payment to the knitter
is made in cash?-No. In some cases the price is marked in and
sometimes not.
2775. Then how do you know what you have paid if it is not
marked?-The transaction is very often carried through without
reference to the book at all, particularly in the case of a purchase.
2776. But I am speaking only of those knitters whom you employ.
I am quite aware that in sales it generally a transaction that is
finished at the time; but in the case of your knitters, how do you
know how much is paid to them in cash?-I had many more
knitters at one time than I have now, but I have given them up.
With regard to the one who is knitting for me just now, I don't
remember whether she ever asked me for any cash upon her
knitting or not.
2777. Have you only one woman knitting for you just now?-I
have only two, and one of them has had no knitting for some time.
I don't remember of either of these two having ever asked me for
money.
2778. They have an account in your books, and they take goods,
and their account is balanced now and again?-Yes.
2779. Do you sell worsted?-No. For the last few months I have
had a little of the Pyrenees wool to sell, and I have sold it.
2780. Is that extensively purchased by people who wish to knit?-
There seems to be a good deal of it wrought into small articles at
present. I have never wrought up any of it.
2781. Is it an article that is sold for cash?-Yes; but sometimes we
give it out upon the work that is brought in.
2782. There is no difficulty made about giving it out upon a
transaction of that sort?-No; not that kind of it. I never object to
give Scotch wool.
2783. But you do object to give the Shetland wool that is
purchased for cash?-Yes; we have a profit on the Pyrenees wool.
2784. Why is it called Pyrenees wool?-I don't know. It is
sometimes called Scotch wool too.
2785. Is it the practice in your shop to give workers lines for a
balance that is due upon goods sold?-Yes.
2786. What is the form of these lines?-I have one or two of them
here. (Produces lines.) It is in this form:
'I O U 1s. 3d. in goods.
JAMES TULLOCH
3. 1. 72.'
There is a private mark in the corner which is only known to
myself, showing the amount; and there is also a private stamp on
the corner, as a guarantee for the genuineness of the line.
2787. The other one which you produce is a blank form?-Yes. I
keep some of them on hand, ready for filling up.
2788. Can your clerk issue them in your absence?-Yes; he knows
the private mark too, and he puts it there.
2789. Do you keep a register of these notes?-No; they are just
given out as they are required, and goods are given for them when
they are brought in. Sometimes I have given goods for a note
which the people said they had lost or torn; but it is only as a
matter of convenience for them that they are given at all.
2790. You would rather give the goods to them at once?-Yes.
Sometimes lines are given to them when we do not have a
particular thing they want; and we also give them out sometimes
when we are in a hurry.
2791. Have you ever been asked to give money in return for these
lines instead of goods?-I cannot charge my memory just now
with any case of that kind, but sometimes it may happen. The
lines are only given out for goods purchased, and not for knitting;
and several times I have given 5s., and 4s., and 3s., and 2s., and so
on, in cash; but if they ask for much money on a shawl, the
understanding then is that I shall get it at a little less.
2792. That is arranged at the time of the sale?-Yes.
2793. But suppose the sale is concluded, and one of these lines is
given for the balance, do you then understand that the whole sum
due is to be taken in goods?-Yes. The reason why I expect to get
the shawl for a little less if large part of the price is wanted in
money, is because I never consider that I realize above what I pay
in goods for my hosiery, and very often there is a heavy discount
off. I have heard some of the other evidence which seems to clash
a little with that, but I can easily explain it.
2794. What can you explain?-The apparent discrepancy between
the value received in goods, and what the articles realize in the
market. The hosiery market is a very uneven thing.
2795. If there is anything you can explain on which Mr. Laurenson
and Mr. Sinclair have differed, I shall be glad to hear it?-Of
course it is not my business to try to reconcile their evidence, but
I was about to say that the hosiery market in the south is very
irregular. It is done to some extent by a kind of, I can hardly call it
favouritism, but there are houses in England that if they begin to
buy from one party, they will not afterwards buy from another. If
they get a very long credit, they will give a higher price, and I
know of persons they are constantly dealing with to whom they
will give 9s. or 10s., for an article, while they would only offer 6s.
or 7s. for it to another.
2796. Are you now referring to people in the south?-Yes,
wholesale dealers. And just as we may happen to get into the good
graces of a good customer, so prices vary.
2797. But every article has a different price of its own, I fancy?
You cannot price a Shetland shawl without seeing it and judging
of it both as to the material and the workmanship?-No; that is
quite true.
2798. You cannot get twenty shawls of a certain size at the same
price?-No; but we can perhaps select them out of a greater
quantity.
2799. But you cannot get twenty shawls made to order exactly of
the same value?-No.
2800. What is your reason for carrying on that system of paying
in goods?-It has been of old date. It was the practice when I
commenced to the trade; but my own impression is that if a money
system were adopted, only a very few of the producers would
accept of it, because they would, as a consequence and as a
general rule, have to take 20 or 25 per cent. less in money than
they would get in goods. We buy with the understanding that we
are to realize what we pay in goods. As I have said, sometimes for
a certain article, or in a good market, a good deal more may be
realized; but then we have the risk of loss, and we have a heavy
discount; and therefore we have to live by the profit on the goods
we sell. If we were to pay in cash, then of course we must buy at
a lower rate, so as to give us some profit on the shawl, and
consequently if a woman were to come in with a shawl, and to
agree that the price was to be 20s. worth of goods, it is not likely
that, unless she was very hard up for money, she would take 15s.
or 16s.
2801. Can you give me any instance in which you have paid a cash
price for a shawl which was lower than what you were willing to
give in goods?-I don't recollect any case of that kind just now,
except one.
2802. How long ago was that?-Not very long; perhaps a few
months.
2803. What were the circumstances of that transaction?-It was
one of these fine shawls. I don't know what I would have offered
for it, but the person said she would give it to me for £2 in money,
and it was agreed that that was to be the bargain. When [Page 62]
I saw the shawl, it did not turn out to be quite so good as I had
expected. The woman had got £1 of money at the time when the
bargain was made, and after that she had taken up some goods out
of the shop, and the balance of the price was taken out in goods.
2804. The bargain was made in that case, before the shawl was
knitted?-No, the shawl was knitted.
2805. I thought you said, it did not turn out to be quite so good as
you expected?-No, it was not quite so good when I came to see it
as I expected from hearing of it.
2806. Had you looked at the shawl before you made the
bargain?-I had seen her knitting it. I may remark, that very often
these goods turn out better than they look when they are in an
undressed state, and sometimes much worse.
2807. Have you any objection to adopt a cash system the people
are willing to agree to it?-Of course I would have no particular
objection; but my own impression is, that a cash system, if
adopted, would give a very great check to the sale of goods.
2808. Don't you think it would be better for the merchant?-I
don't know. I think a merchant would never risk so much if he
had to pay in cash, or push so hard as he does now.
2809. Would the merchant in that case not make sure of getting
two profits instead of one?-No, he would not do that.
2810. He would have a profit on his hosiery, because he would buy
it at a cash price, and sell it at a price which would pay him for his
risk, would he not?-There much competition in the trade already
that the price kept up to its utmost point. Indeed, it is kept above
what the goods actually realize.
2811. But if a man was depending upon the profit he was to get on
his hosiery, he would not pay more for it than he could afford?-
Of course he would not; but just as in other businesses, opposition
here is sometimes the life of trade, and sometimes it is the death of
trade.
2812. How do you apply that principle here?-There is sometimes
such a keen competition that people cut up one another.
2813. Do you think the competition, would be so keen that the
cash prices for the hosiery would be forced up to the level of the
goods prices that are paid now?-That would depend. Those who
had the best markets would be able to give the best, price, and no
doubt they might by that means be able to drive others
comparatively out of the trade.
2814. Is it the case, that you generally send your shawls south at
such a figure as leaves you no profit upon them?-Taking it all in
all, I never have any profit on certain articles. When I have an
opportunity of selling to a private person, or when I get private
orders, I generally realize a profit, but when I sell to wholesale
merchants taking the thing as a whole, I consider that I have never
realized the full price of my goods from the hosiery which I have
sold.
2815. Is that one of the reasons which lead you to continue the
system of paying in goods?-Of course, the system is quite
general.
2816. No doubt; but supposing it were not general, would that be a
reason for continuing it in order that you might make a profit out
of the goods you give for the hosiery?-Of course I cannot say
exactly what it might be, further than that, as I have already stated,
we had to pay in cash, we would have to buy at considerably lower
rates, and I am not aware that there is such a demand in the south
as to enable us to do that.
2817. But you say that at present you do not make a profit upon
the goods sent south?-Yes; I say that there is no profit upon the
goods sent south, taking it as a general thing. The profit I have is
upon the goods which I sell in exchange for the hosiery which I
buy.
2818. You say you generally buy shawls: you do not get them
knitted for you?-No, I have very few knitted for me.
2819. Suppose you pay 25s. for a shawl, at what price will you
invoice that to your southern customer?-Generally, I would just
invoice it at about the same price. Sometimes I am obliged to put
it lower, but when an article after dressing turns out to be better
than I expected, then I may put a shilling or so upon it.
2820. Do you keep an invoice-book?-I keep no invoice-book, but
only a day-book and ledger.
2821. The day-book shows the number of shawls you send south,
and the prices at which they are invoiced?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, WILLIAM JOHNSTONE, examined.
2822. You are a merchant in Lerwick in the same line of business
that is carried on by Mr. Robert Sinclair?-Yes, something similar
2823. You deal in the same articles, and purchase hosiery in the
same way?-Yes.
2824. Do you also employ knitters?-Yes.
2825. How many of them do you employ?-I can hardly tell. I
have very few just now. I have sometimes had as many as from 30
to 50, but I have not nearly so many at present. I don't think I
have a dozen altogether just now.
2826. Do they mostly live in Lerwick?-Yes.
2827. Are these knitters so employed by you paid for their work by
taking goods, or do you, sometimes pay them in cash?-They are
generally paid by taking goods. If they ask for a little cash at any
time, I will give it.
2828. Are their names entered in your books?-Yes.
2829. Has each of them an account in your ledger?-Yes; a small
book which I keep for the purpose. [Produces book.] We generally
settle for an article when they bring it in, but sometimes there may
be a balance on one side or the other.
2830. Does this book show the amount of cash that is paid for the
shawls brought in to you?-No. There are many transactions that
are never entered here at all.
2831. But does the book show the amount of cash that is paid for
shawls which are knitted to order with your own wool?-No;
when I give out wool for the knitting of a shawl, no note of it
appears in the book at all.
2832. What note do you take of it?-I merely take a memorandum
on a piece of paper.
2833. Then you may have a lot of slips of that kind lying beside
you?-No. I very likely burn them whenever the shawls are
returned, and if I know the woman sufficiently well, I may give the
wool to her without keeping any note of it of any kind.
2834. Do you trust to your memory for that?-Yes. I weigh the
wool before it goes out.
2835. What proportion of the wages of these workers is paid by
you in money?-I cannot say.
2836. Will there be a shilling in the pound paid money?-I cannot
say, but I think there will be more than that.
2837. May there be 2s.?-I cannot say exactly. Perhaps if they
come with a shawl for which they are to get 8s. or 10s., they may
get 1s. or 2s. upon it, but if they did not ask it, they would not get
it.
2838. The understanding is that you pay them goods?-Yes.
2839. Are you often asked to give some money?-Very seldom;
but whenever they ask for money, they get it, or any other thing I
have in the shop.
2840. Can you explain how women who knit for you support
themselves if they only get soft goods and tea for their knitting?-
There are very few of them who do not do other work. There may
be a few who do nothing but knit, but the greater part of the girls
and women who employ themselves at knitting have other work to
do besides. Some of them sew slop shirts for the agents shops, and
various other things.
2841. These are required for the men who go to the
whale-fishing?-Yes. [Produces day-book.] The [Page 63]
details of the goods sent south are all there. It is only the amount
that is posted into the ledger.
2842. What would be the cost of producing this one dozen socks
[showing]?-They were bought with barter for exactly the same
value of goods as is charged for them there. I have also to be at
the expense of dressing them and packing them, and then perhaps
lying out of my money for twelve months.
2843. Then you dress them for nothing?-I must dress them for
nothing.
2844. Is not that a loss to you?-Yes.
2845. And you must pay yourself for that out of the profit on the
goods which you give for them?-Yes.
2846. Is that a common thing in your trade?-I believe it is. Of
course there are some of the articles on which there is a profit.
2847. I see here 'One brown half hap shawl, 3s. 9d.:' would there
be a profit upon that?-There would not be much; perhaps there
would be 8d. on it.
2848. 'One large hap, 18s.:' would you have a profit on that?-
Yes; I might have about 2s. That article was made specially to
order.
2849. Was it made with, your own wool?-Yes.
2850. 'One white hap, 9s. 6d.?'-There might be about 1s. on that
hap.
2851. Was it bought over the counter for goods?-I think that one
was made upon an order; but it was paid for by me in goods.
2852. There is another one at 9s. 6d.?-That is one of the same
size and of the same colour.
2853. Suppose that 9s. 6d. hap had not been made to order, but had
been bought over the counter and had been settled for with goods,
what profit do you suppose would have been upon it apart from the
goods?-I cannot say.
2854. Was 9s. 6d. the price which you paid to the party selling, or
was it somewhat less?-It was 8s. 6d., and I would have a profit of
a shilling on it.
2855. That was when it was knitted for you?-Yes.
2856. But I am speaking of articles which were bought by you:
what profit would you have upon such an article then?-I could
not tell unless I knew the kind of goods they were to take for it.
2857. But apart from the goods altogether, what would you give
for a shawl that you would sell for 9s. 6d., if it was offered to you
for sale?-Perhaps I might give 9s. 6d. worth or goods.
2858. Would that be the usual way of dealing?-Sometimes it is.
It depends very much upon the quality of the article. Sometimes
we pay a dear price for them, and at other times we get them pretty
cheap.
2859. Do you say that you generally buy an article of that kind at
the price payable in goods for which you sell it to the merchant in
the south?-Very often we do.
2860. Therefore you take no profit off your hosiery at all?-In
some cases we do not. We cannot get it; we are glad to get what
we pay in goods for them.
2861. So that the fact that you get your goods disposed of, is the
inducement which you have in buying an article over the
counter?-Yes.
2862. Is that one of the reasons why this system of dealing in
goods continues?-I believe that is the very reason of it, and the
scarcity of money.
2863. Do you approve of the system, or would you rather have
cash payments?-I would rather have cash payments.
2864. In that case would you not have two profits instead of one?
You would make, sure of a profit on the hosiery, as you would be
able to pay for it in cash?-Yes.
2865. And would you not have the same profit that you now have
on the goods that you give for the hosiery?-I think we might.
2866. Would you not have a smaller profit upon them?-Of
course, if we were selling for cash over the counter, we would try
to cut the goods as low as we could.
2867. If you were selling your goods for cash over the counter
instead of for hosiery, would you reduce your prices?-We could
do that quite easily; because often we buy hosiery articles which
lie on our hands for years and the moths get into them, and we get
nothing for them at all.
2868. Therefore, in consequence of being paid in hosiery you must
put a higher price upon the drapery goods and tea that you sell?-I
do not put a higher price on them in consequence of that, because I
generally charge the same price to those from whom I get hosiery
as to those who pay me in cash.
2869. But if there was no such thing as paying hosiery with goods,
you could sell your goods a little cheaper, because you must
calculate upon a little loss on the hosiery?-Yes.
2870. So that both the customers who pay in hosiery, and those
who pay in cash, are made to pay for a possible loss upon the
hosiery?-Yes.
2871. In that way they are made to pay rather higher for their
goods?-Yes.
2872. Does not that rather show that the system is a source of loss
to the whole community?-There is not the slightest doubt about
it, but what can we do until things are put upon a better footing.
2873. You would be glad to pay in cash if you could get your
goods disposed of?-I would be very glad. For one thing, it would
save us a little trouble.
2874. There is a complicated system of bookkeeping entailed by
the present system?-There is.
2875. Have you had any balances to settle on lines or
acknowledgments or vouchers?-No; I do not give any lines. I
have always been against it.
2876. Did you give any formerly?-I gave them very rarely, unless
when I could not help it.
2877. That is to say when a person came to sell hosiery to you and
she did not want to take the whole price out in goods, you gave her
a line?-Yes; if there was a balance then they would want a line
for it.
2878. Would they not have preferred money?-They never asked
for money; at least very seldom.
2879. How long, is it since you ceased to give these lines?-I have
not given any lines for the last two years, or nearly that time, and I
just gave them occasionally.
2880. What was your reason for laying down that rule?-Because
there was such a great deal of bother about it. At a time when you
were busy they would come in and pop down their lines and that is
another secret in the line business. Some of the people like to sell
shawls and get a line for them and then they go away and give that
line to some other person, and that person comes in and orders
goods of different kinds and prices them at the lowest rate we can
give them for. Then, when they have screwed us down to the
lowest price, they throw their line down upon the counter the same
as if it were a bank-note.
2881. They do so, after having bargained and bothered with you to
get you to reduce your prices, on the footing that they were to pay
you in cash?-Yes; and of course you cannot refuse the line when
it is offered to you. You must just take it and say nothing.
2882. Was that one of the reasons why you gave up giving lines?-
It was not exactly for that I gave it up, but it was one of the
reasons, because it was a great annoyance and bother. They would
come in with the lines perhaps on mail-day, and bother us then.
2883. But a person might come in with a shawl on mail-day, and
wish to take the value of it in goods. What would you do then?-I
might tell them to come back again, and they would do it.
2884. Would they not do that if they had a line?-They would take
care of that. They would get the goods they wanted, and then they
would pop the line in.
2885. Then you think you are under an obligation to serve the
people whenever they choose, if they have a line of yours?-Yes.
2886. But if the people have bargained with you, and you had
offered them goods at a somewhat lower price for cash, and if a
line was then offered to you in the way you have mentioned,
would you not refuse to take the line in exchange for the goods?-
No, I would not. It would not be right to do it.
[Page 64]
2887. Would you not say,-If you are to pay with a line, you must
take the goods at the ordinary price?-I never thought of doing
that, and I don't think anybody would do it.
2888. You would not like to have the appearance of drawing back
from your bargain?-No; it would not look very well.
2889. Have you heard any of the evidence that has been given
to-day?-I was present when Mr. Laurenson was examined, and
also during the first part of Mr. Sinclair's examination.
2890. Do you concur generally with the statements which Mr.
Laurenson made with regard to the trade in Lerwick?-Yes; I
think he gave a very just statement.
2891. You think what he said was generally correct?-I think so.
2892. Do you know how the women who live alone, and entirely
by knitting, get their provisions?-I used to keep meal, but I don't
do it now. I cannot do it, because it destroyed my place with
moths.
2893. Do you know how these women supply themselves with
meal now?-I cannot say.
2894. Most of them are likely employed at other work as well as at
nitting?-Yes.
2895. But some of them will do nothing else?-There are very few
who do nothing else, except those who are in bad health, and who
are not able to work outside.
2896. Have you known any of these women taking goods from you
and selling them again, in order to get money?-No; I never heard
of any one doing that, so far as I know.
2897. But at the time when you gave I O U's they often exchanged
them for money?-Yes; or gave them to some other body to come
to my shop with them. These are the only cases where I knew of
them being exchanged. I heard yesterday, when I was present, that
yarn had been refused upon these lines, but I always gave them
yarn when they asked it from me.
2898. Did you give them Shetland yarn?-I seldom had it for my
own use, but I have often given them Pyrenees wool.
2899. I suppose the reason why the idea has arisen among the
knitters that they cannot get wool in exchange for their work, is
because Shetland wool is very difficult to get?-I suppose so.
2900. The merchants don't keep it for sale?-No; they cannot get
enough of it. I may say that I supply the women with sugar and
tea, and with paraffin oil when have it.
2901. I think you are the only soft goods merchant in Lerwick who
keeps sugar?-I don't know. Perhaps there are more; but I keep
sugar, tea, coffee, rice, and brimstone, which they need for
dressing their shawls.
2902. Is it the case that your purchases of hosiery are more
commonly paid in tea and sugar than in drapery goods?-The
knitters who work to me generally take what tea and sugar they
require. They also take drapery goods when they need them.
When we buy hosiery over the counter, it is generally drapery
goods that are paid for them; but they get tea also if they ask for it.
2903. The tea is made up in quarter-pound parcels?-Yes.
2904. Do you know of any case where it has been exchanged after
being purchased from you?-No.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, HUGH LINKLATER, examined.
2905. You are a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
2906. Is the business which you carry on similar to that of Mr.
Laurenson?-No. I don't give out wool for people to knit. I only
purchase a little over the counter, and I do very little of any kind in
the fancy line.
2907. You do more in the coarser hosiery?-Yes.
2908. Do you deal largely in that business?-No, I don't do much
in hosiery at all.
2909. What is your business?-Selling drapery goods.
2910. Do you sell them in the ordinary way for cash?-Yes, and I
take a little hosiery when it is offered in exchange.
2911. But the bulk of your transactions are in cash?-Yes.
2912. Are you engaged in any other business?-No.
2913. Do you concur generally in the evidence which Mr.
Laurenson gave, so far as the hosiery business is concerned?-I
do. I think he gave a very fair statement of it.
2914. You do not wish to add anything to it?-No, for it is not
much that I do in that line. I may say that I don't do any in fancy
goods at all, I am not much acquainted with them.
2915. But you have a considerable trade in drapery goods and tea
for cash?-Yes, or in exchange for goods. It is principally with
country people that I deal.
2916. With small farmers and such like?-Yes.
2917. Do you find that they are generally ready and able to pay
you in cash for the goods you sell?-There are some cases where I
hate to lie out of it for a good while.
2918. But your general mode of dealing is in cash?-Yes; but if
they come forward with an article which is suitable for my hosiery
trade, I may take it and give them goods for it, the same as if they
were to pay me in cash.
2919. Money payments are the rule in your shop, and hosiery the
exception?-Yes.
2920. But when you are offered hosiery, is there a different price
charged by you for your I make no difference. I buy their hosiery,
such of it as I accept, the same as cash, and I expect to get a cash
price for it.
2921. In selling hosiery, do you put a profit upon it?-By no
means.
2922. You sell it at the price which you put upon it to the person
who brought it?-Yes, so that I can get the price of my goods.
2923. You regard it merely as a currency in which you are paid for
your proper drapery goods?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 4, 1872, JOHN MANSON, examined.
2924. You were at one time a fisherman at Dunrossness?-Yes.
2925. You are now employed on weekly wages by Mr. Harrison,
fish merchant, Lerwick?-Yes.
2926. You cure his fish when they are landed in Bressay?-Yes.
2927. You are his superintendent there and have charge of all his
men?-Yes.
2928. How many men are employed under you?-It is generally
women and lads who are employed under me.
2929. Is Mr. Harrison a large trader in the home fishing?-Not in
the home fishing; principally in the Faroe fishing.
2930. Are his fish from that fishery landed in Bressay?-Yes.
2931. How many people are generally employed there?-The
numbers vary according to the demand for work. They may range
from 80 to 60 hands daily for five months in the year, during the
fish-curing season.
2932. Mr. Harrison has a store in Lerwick, where he sells all kinds
of provisions and dry goods?-Yes, he has a provision shop and a
clothier's shop; they are different shops.
2933. Do you and the other persons employed in his fish-curing
establishment deal at these shops? Do you get your supplies for
your families there?-Not generally, unless we choose to do so.
2934. But in point of fact, do you get many of your [Page 65]
supplies there?-I buy the greater part of my groceries from that
shop.
2935. Is there any obligation upon you to do so?-No.
2936. You have never been told that you ought to do that?-No.
2937. Do you deal at the shop for ready money?-Yes.
2938. You pay for the articles as you get them?-Yes.
2939. How are your wages paid to you?-In cash.
2940. Are you paid at the end of each week?-Yes; unless when
the weather prevents us from getting across the Sound, which does
not very often occur.
2941. When you or any of your family come over to make your
market in Lerwick, and go to Mr. Harrison's shop, do you bring
with you the money which has been paid to you in Bressay?-We
are paid at Lerwick in Mr. Harrison's office, for our work; and if
we choose to go into either of his shops we can do so. We get the
cash at the office; and if we go to the shop, we pay that cash for
the soft goods or groceries which we get, but we can take the
money to any other shop we please.
2942. Is the office near the shop?-The office and the clothier's
shop are connected they are both on the same premises.
2943. Do many of the people employed under you deal at these
shops?-Not so far as I am aware. They do deal there in a certain
way, but not in a compulsory way.
2944. Is there any system of pass-books carried on there?-Not so
far as I am aware.
2945. You don't think any of them have pass books at the shop?-
I don't think it. I may mention in passing, that very often when we
get our wages, instead of being urged to buy from them, are
cautioned to use our wages in the most economical way possible,
and to go elsewhere if we think we can be better
2946. Who cautioned you in that way?-Mr. Harrison himself. I
don't mention that as giving you an idea that there is any grievance
in the way of our not getting as good remuneration for our money
in these shops as we do elsewhere, but to show the independence
of the service. We are in no way bound.
2947. I know that you have not come here because you have any
complaint at all?-No; I have no complaint to make in that way.
2948. Do you find the supplies which you get in these shops to be
quite satisfactory?-Quite satisfactory.
2949. Do you know anything with regard to the dealings at that
store of men employed, in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, a little.
2950. Is that from your own personal knowledge, or merely from
hearsay?-A little from my own personal knowledge. I know the
way in which the men deal with regard to getting their outfit when
the fishing commences.
2951. You know that they go to the store for their outfit and that is
put down in a ledger account against each man?-Yes, each man
has generally a private account for himself.
2952. The contract for the Faroe fishing is that the fisherman
makes certain supplies for the ship, and he is to get one half of the
take?-Yes.
2953. Is the price for the fish fixed at the beginning of the season
or at the end?-At the end.
2954. And no fisherman knows the price he is to get until the
settlement time comes round?-Not so far as the Faroe fishing is
concerned.
2955. During the absence of the fisherman at the fishing, are his
family generally supplied with goods from the employer's store?-
Generally; if the family are in circumstances to require supplies.
Plenty of them do not require them, but those who do are supplied
in that way.
2956. Do you mean that they are supplied with goods?-They are
supplied with goods and cash.
2957. How does it happen that some of them do not require
supplies?-A few of them live in the country, and have little
patches of land, and they do not require so much goods during the
season as others.
2958. Do you know the way in which the business is conducted as
between these fishermen and the store?-So far as I know, they
get what they ask.
2959. Do they get what money they ask?-They get money or
goods, whatever they ask.
2960. And an account runs, which is settled at the end of the
year?-Yes.
2961. Is there any obligation on these Faroe fishermen to deal at
the store?-Not so far as I am aware.
2962. Are they not obliged to deal there for their outfit?-It is
generally understood that they will take their outfit there, because
it is more like giving them an advance of money than anything
else.
2963. What is the name of Mr. Harrison's store-keeper in
Lerwick?-There is no special storekeeper; he has several
shopkeepers.
2964. But who attends to the shop?-James Mouat is in the
clothier's shop.
2965. Who gives out the stores to the fishermen for their outfit?-
Mouat generally gives them anything in the way of soft goods, and
Gilbert Harrison, junr. supplies them with what they require in the
provision shop.
2966. However you have not much experience of that part of the
business?-Not much.
2967. I suppose you don't know much about Dunrossness at
present?-Not much just now; it is ten years since I was a regular
resident there.
2968. Have you been there lately?-It is about twelve months
since I was there last.
2969. Have you relations living there still?-Yes. I have brothers
there.
2970. What was the reason for your leaving Dunrossness?-
Because I thought I could better myself elsewhere.
2971. Had you a farm there?-Yes.
2972. Have you one here?-No.
2973. When you were at Dunrossness, were you bound to fish to
any particular person?-No; I happened not to be bound at that
time, but I was singular in that respect because there were not
many who were not bound.
2974. Is it a common thing in Shetland for a fisherman not to be
able to fish for any one he likes?-It is quite common where the
landlord is also a fishcurer.
2975. Can you tell me any men who are so bound in any part of
the islands?-I think that generally the tenants on the estates of Mr
Grierson and Mr. Bruce are bound to fish for their landlords.
2976. You don't know any other case within your own knowledge
where a fisherman has been checked for fishing to another than his
landlord or tacksman?-No, not within my own knowledge.
2977. Nor for taking goods from a store other than that of his
landlord, or employer?-No; I understand that is the case in other
parts of Shetland, but only from report. I don't know it from
personal knowledge.
<Adjourned>.
[Page 66]
Lerwick: Saturday, January 6, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
MALCOLM MALCOLMSON, examined
2978. Are you a fisherman at Channerwick?-I am.
2979. Do you hold land there?-My father holds land under Mr.
Bruce of Simbister.
2980. Robert Mouat was formerly tacksman of Channerwick and
Levenwick under Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
2981. He carried on a fish-curing business there up till last year?-
Yes.
2982. During the time he held the tack, were the tenants there in
use to fish for and deliver their fish to Mouat?-Yes.
2983. Was it supposed that there was an obligation on them to
deliver their fish to him only?-Yes; they thought so.
2984. Was it the case that there was such an obligation?-It was
not, but in their ignorance, they did not know otherwise.
2985. How do you know it was not the case?-Because
afterwards, when he was put out of the place, Mr. Bruce, the
proprietor, told them they never were bound to Mouat; only that if
he gave them as high a price as was given in the country, and
served them as well in every respect as they could be served
anywhere else, why should they not fish to him as well as to
another? If, however, Mouat came anything short of that, then
they were under no obligation whatever, but they could put their
produce where they pleased, and they had only to pay him their
rent on a given day.
2986. When did Mr. Bruce tell you that?-In 1871.
2987. Had he never told you so before?-He never told the tenants
that before. He had given a statement to Mouat before, but Mouat
never revealed it to the tenantry until after his departure; and then
it was known, and only then, how matters stood.
2988. To whom did Mr. Bruce make that statement? Was it in
writing, or to some particular person?-I could not exactly answer
that for I have never seen the statement myself. It is only from
hearsay among the tenantry at large that I know about it.
2989. Have you heard that from many of the tenants?-Yes, from
many.
2990. What is your father's name?-Malcom Malcolmson. He is
unable to come here, unless it is absolutely necessary.
2991. Is he not in good health?-No; not at present.
2992. Was it the practice in Mouat's time to require the tenants to
deliver their fish to him only?-Yes.
2993. Did he object to their selling them to others?-Yes.
2994. Did he turn out any people for doing so, or threaten to turn
them out?-He threatened a few, and turned out one
2995. Who was that one?-Henry Sinclair, Levenwick.
2996. Was that a long time ago?-Yes; a few years ago. I don't
remember the number of years in particular but it is a good while
ago.
2997. You have given me a letter in these terms:
'MOUL, 18<th Jan>. 1869.
'Mr. Malcolm Malcolmson.
'Dear Sir,-I am sorrey to think that I shoud hav met to-day
what I have, but you will be pleased to lok out for A place at
Martamas 1869,
'ROBT. MOUAT,
'as I am goen to set your land.'
What had he met that day?-He had received intelligence from his
storekeeper at Channerwick that Malcolm Malcolmson's son (that
is myself) had given part of the fish of Thomas Jamieson's boat to
another fish-merchant, Thomas Tulloch, in Sandwick parish.
2998. Does Tulloch live in Sandwick?-Yes, near Sand Lodge.
2999. He keeps a shop and cures fish there?-Yes.
3000. How do you know that that was the reason for this letter
being written?-Because Mouat told my father himself in my
presence.
3001. Was that before or after the letter was received?-It was
after the letter was received, and when my father asked the reason
why he was to give his land to another.
3002. Was your father put out of the farm at that time?-He was
not.
3003. How did that happen?-Because he lost the use of one of his
hands or of his right thumb, and Mouat had a sort of sympathy
with him as being unable to earn his bread as he used to do before,
and therefore he let him alone for a season until he could get round
again, and regain perfect health and strength, but before that
season rolled round, Mouat was out the place himself.
3004. Did you consider yourselves bound to take goods from
Mouat's store?-We could not do anything else.
3005. Why?-Because we had no money to purchase them with
from other stores. We received no money during the fishing
season.
3006. Did you ever ask for advances of money during the fishing
season?-Yes; but they were refused.
3007. Why?-Because he just would not give it. He gave no
reason, except that he could not give it.
3008. But you would get any kind of goods you wanted?-Yes.
3009. What was the quality of the goods at Mouats' store?-They
were of a very inferior quality to what we could purchase
anywhere else in the island.
3010. Are you speaking just now from your own knowledge, or
from the common understanding of the people about?-I am
speaking from nothing else but my own knowledge.
3011. But are you a good judge of the quality of goods?-I cannot
say that I am a very good judge, only I know well enough a bad
article from a good one.
3012. What particular thing are you speaking of just now?-Say
cottons, moleskins, and cloth.
3013. And what as to the provisions?-They were of inferior
quality as well. We had meal from his store which he called his
second flour. It was as dear, if not dearer, than we could purchase
it anywhere else, and it was of such a quality that it could not be
eaten by human beings.
3014. Then you did not eat it?-It had to be eaten for the support
of life, while it existed; but had it not been for the provisions that
came from other stores, and from people who had them to sell,
Mouat's tenantry could not have been alive now, and I among the
rest.
3015. How could they get provisions from other stores if they had
no money to purchase them with?-They made a statement of how
they were situated under Mouat, and how they could not receive
any meal at all, and that they had to give all their fish to him; and
the other shopkeepers felt such sympathy for them, that they gave
them supplies to save their own lives and the lives of their
families, and to put the men to the fishing. At the same time,
when they gave them these supplies, they had no expectation
whatever of receiving anything for them from a good many,
because they were so poor that they could not give it.
3016. Do you think the storekeepers gave the fisher [Page 67] men
credit, without any expectation of being repaid?-One of the
shopkeepers told me so himself.
3017. Who was that?-James Smith, Hill Cottage, Sandwick
parish.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, WILLIAM MANSON, examined.
3018. Are you a fisherman at Channerwick, in Sandwick parish?-
Yes.
3019. Do you hold a piece of land under Mr. Bruce of
Simbister?-Yes.
3020. It was formerly included in the tack to Robert Mouat?-Yes.
3021. Were you bound to fish for Mouat?-Yes.
3022. Did you give your fish to any other merchant during the time
of his tack?-Yes. In 1870, the year that Mouat failed in business,
I gave my fish to James Smith, because I saw I could not live for
want of meal, and therefore I and some others were determined to
give our fish where we could get both meat and money; and for
doing so, Mouat served me with a summons.
3023. Were Smith and Tulloch the only fish merchants in that
neighbourhood besides Mouat?-Yes; they cure fish, but not in a
large way.
3024. But they buy your fish, and sell you provisions and goods?-
Yes.
3025. In consequence of selling your fish to Smith, did you receive
a letter from Mouat?-Yes; I have lost that letter.
3026. Did it warn you that you were to leave your ground?-Yes.
3027. Did you also get a formal warning to quit?-I did. I have it.
[Produces summons of removing.]
3028. This is a summons at the instance of Robert Mouat, residing
in Lerwick, principal tenant under Robert Bruce, Esq. of
Simbister, dated 29th September 1870, giving you warning to
leave at Martinmas: was that summons served upon you by a
sheriff officer?-Yes.
3029. Did you leave in consequence of it?-No; it was in the latter
part of the harvest that I received it, which was a very inconvenient
time for me to leave, and I went to Mouat and spoke to him about
it. He told me that if I would promise to be an obedient tenant,
and agree to fish for him the same as I had been doing before, and
pay the expense of the summons, I could stay. I knew that it was
then coming towards the end of his lease, and I agreed to do that.
If I had thought he was to continue longer on the place, I would
have left.
3030. Did you pay for the summons?-I did.
3031. You have handed me another letter in the following terms:
'MOUL, 1869, <Jan>. 18<th>.
'THOMAS JAMIESON.
'LAURANCE MALCOLMSON.
'WILLIAM MANSON.
'WILLIAM MOUAT.
'I this day duly give you notice to look out for A house at
Martamas 1869, as I am not incline to keep such men as you for
your preasent condick.
'ROBERT MOUAT.'
3032. What does that letter refer to?-It was sent to us because we
had allowed Malcolm Malcolmson to give his share of the fish
away to another merchant than Mouat.
3033. You understood Mouat to refer to Malcolmson having sold,
his fish to Tulloch?-Yes.
3034. This letter was written at an earlier period than the warning
you received yourself?-Yes, the year before.
3035. How do you know it was that particular act on your part
which caused this letter to be written?-Because Mouat told me so
himself.
3036. When did he tell you so?-That same year, just a few days
after the letter was written
3037. How was it that you did not leave your ground at that
time?-We just never minded him, but went on as we had been
doing. I and the rest of the men fished for him, and that man
fished for Thomas Tulloch as he had been doing, and Mouat never
asked anything about it afterwards. He just annulled the letter, as
it were.
3038. You have produced another summons of removing: what
does it refer to?-It is the summons that was served upon another
man, Thomas Jamieson, at the same time that the summons was
served upon me, and for the same thing. He knew that I was
coming here, and he wanted me to bring his summons also, that I
might show it to you. He had also fished for James Smith in 1870.
3039. Have you anything to say about Mouat's shop?-It was very
little worth.
3040. Did you get all your goods there?-Yes.
3041. Were you obliged to take them there?-We were because
we could not get them anywhere else.
3042. Did Mouat tell you that you must take them from him?-He
did not say that we must take them; but when we were fishing for
him, and getting no money, we were obliged to go and take our
goods from his shop. Although they had been double the price of
what they were anywhere else, we had no other way of doing. We
could not make a better of it.
3043. You think the quality of the articles you got there was not
good?-It was not.
3044. The meal especially was bad?-Yes; the meal was worst.
3045. Was the tea good?-No; it was bad, and it was dear.
3046. For whom were you fishing last year?-For James Smith.
3047. Are you perfectly at liberty now to fish for any one you
please?-Yes, we are at perfect liberty.
3048. Smith is not a tacksman?-No; he just takes our fish, and
pays us well for them, as high as can be got in the place.
3049. Do you deal at Smith's shop?-Yes.
3050. And you settle with him annually?-Yes; I have just settled
with him this week.
3051. Had you a balance to receive from him?-Yes; £4, 14s.
3052. That was your balance of the season's fishing, after
deducting the price of the goods you had got during the season
from his shop?-Yes.
3053. Is that a usual balance in a good season, or is it under or
over?-It is just about the general thing.
3054. Was that paid to you in cash?-Yes.
3055. You paid your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes.
3056. Have Hay & Co. any fish-curing places in that
neighbourhood?-No, they have a place down at Dunrossness, but
that is a long way from us.
3057. You are not expected to fish for them?-No; we have heard
nothing about that yet.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT ANDERSON, examined.
3058. You are principal shopman to Mr. Robert Linklater,
merchant, Lerwick?-Yes.
3059. I understand you desire to make some explanation with
regard to the evidence of two women who were examined here?-
Yes; of Margaret Tulloch, and of Mrs. Thomas Anderson,
Margaret Tulloch said she refused to take worsted from us to knit,
because she could not get cash for her work. I have to state that
we refused to give her work because she kept it so very long; and
when she was asked why she had kept it so long, she said she had
so many lodgers, that she had scarcely any time for knitting. The
last thing she had from us was a small handkerchief, the knitting of
which was worth 1s. 6d., and which could easily be [Page 68]
made in three days. She had it in hand for two days short of five
months. Mrs. Anderson made the same remark, that she would not
take worsted, because she could not get cash for her knitting. I
have the same explanation to make with regard to her, that we
refused her work because kept it too long. She got a little shawl to
knit on 28d February 1870, and she returned it to use on 14th
June. The knitting of it cost 2s.
3060. You find that from your work-book?-Yes. When we asked
her why she kept the work so long, she replied that she had so
much out-door work to do, that she had scarcely any time for
knitting. Then there was one of the girls Brown, Mrs. Tait, who
was examined the first day, and who said, I think, that I would not
give her cash, but would only give it to my favourites. There are
some sisters of that family, and the book was in name of one of the
sisters. I only recollect her asking me once for a shilling, which I
gave her.
3061. If she got cash, would it not appear in the book?-Yes.
3062. Did she sometimes deal with you in the way of selling her
hosiery?-No.
3063. She always knitted for you?-Yes. On 2d July 1869 there is
cash 1s. marked: that is the only time I recollect her asking it; and
she got it, although I may have made the remark when handing it
to her, that we were not in the habit of giving cash. I did not
refuse it for all that, but in the act of handing it I may have made
that remark.
3064. Mr. Linklater stated that there are about 300 people knitting
for him: are the names of all these parties entered in your
work-book in separate accounts?-Yes. [Produces work-book.]
3065. Will you show me the way, you make settlement with one of
your workers?-Here [showing] is the case of Mary Henry, a
country girl.
3066. Is that a good enough instance of it?-Yes. She brings in
ten veils, and she has to get 1s. each for knitting them. That is
entered to her credit. She will ask what she is to get, and we tell
her. Then she will take whatever she wants at that time. She may
have sent the veils in with another girl, and come in afterwards
herself to get the goods.
3067. I see she has taken out 17s. 41/2d., worth in goods?-She had
taken out the amount she had to get, and she brought in other ten
veils afterwards, the date of which I find is not marked. Then she
asked what she had to get, and she was told it was 4s. 111/2d. We
would ask her if she was to settle for that, and she said yes, and we
marked it settled.
3068. Was that 4s. 111/2d, which is marked as the balance due to
her, paid in cash or got in goods?-It was got in goods entirely.
3069. The items of that do not appear here?-No. When we are
busy we scarcely have time to enter all the items; but at other
times, when we are not so busy, we enter them all.
3070. It is a rule in your business that you do not give lines for a
balance of that kind?-Yes.
3071. You do not give them on a purchase of goods either?-No.
3072. Do the purchases of goods from parties who do not knit with
your worsted appear in any of your books?-No; unless a balance
is left, and it appears in the end of the day-book where I now point
it out. [Showing.] On page 38 there is the account of Helen
Arcus, our dresser.
3073. Is that Mrs. Arcus who has been examined?-No; she does
not dress for us. That account of Helen Arcus is entirely for
dressing.
3074. Is it settled by goods?-No. I wish to explain how we deal
with her. She gets out a quantity of shawls and veils or neckties to
dress. When they are finished, she brings them down to our
hosiery shop where we keep our hosiery and she gets the amount
marked on a bit of a line with which she goes to the other shop. I
ask her what she wants and perhaps if the amount is 8s. 71/2d. she
will ask for a quarter pound of tea for 10d. I then ask her what she
wants next, and she says, 'I want 2s. or 3s. in cash.' There is then
a balance left, which I mark in the book thus 'By 4s. 81/2d.,' which
stands as a balance due to her. If she wants any cash in the interim
between that time and the time when she brings down her
dressing, she comes to the shop and gets cash, say 6d., or any
goods she requires. She gets at the very least 5s. a week in cash all
the year round. That does not appear in the book, but she gets
whatever she asks.
3075. How do you balance the account when the time comes for
doing that?-We add up the two sides of it.
3076. I see that each line in the account contains both debit and
credit entries?-Yes, but there are two money columns at the end,
and the entries are carried out to them according as they are debit
or credit.
3077. How do you do with regard to sending goods south?-When
we get orders for Shetland goods in the winter time, they go to our
house in Edinburgh. We have already forwarded goods there, and
they are kept in store; the orders received at that season are
executed there, and a statement is sent down to us. This
[producing document] is one of the statements which have been
sent from Edinburgh for veils, and here [producing document] is
another for shawls. I have brought a sample of each.
3078. The veils are numbered according to quality?-Yes. When
we send them of different prices, there must be a different number,
to let the people in the south know what the prices are.
3079. You fix the price here at which they are to be sold in
Edinburgh?-Yes.
3080. That is the wholesale price?-Yes. Here is June 4: 4 dozen
grey veils No. 1, 18s.-£3, 12s.; 4 dozen grey veils No. 6, 21s.-
£4, 4s.; 3 dozen No. 7, 27s.-£4, 1s.
3081. Have these grey veils No. 1 been knitted for you by your
own knitters?-The principal part of them; but we buy some.
3082. Show me one of the entries of the payment to a knitter for
these veils?-I could scarcely show it for these identical veils.
3083. But for veils of the very same quality?-I should think this
[showing] would be of the same quality: '10 veils, 9d.-Barbara
Pottinger, Burra Isle.'
3084. Then the No. 1 veil which you sell at 1s. 6d. would cost 9d.
for the knitting?-We pay 9d. for the knitting of it.
3085. You give out the worsted: what will that cost?-I should
think for the coarsest, about 5d.
3086. Would that be the price you pay for it, or the price you
would ask for it from a knitter?-It is the price we pay for it; it is
Shetland wool.
3087. Which you don't sell?-Which we don't sell. We sell no
kinds of wool.
3088. What does the veil cost you for dressing?-11/2d.
3089. Is there any other expense connected with?-There is not on
that identical veil, but there is other expense connected with the
trade.
3090. Have you to pay freight?-Not freight; but when we get a
quantity of goods of that kind, perhaps one-half of them cannot be
sold as they are. The colour is so uneven, that we have to send
them south and dye a great part of them.
3091. Do you send one-half of each lot south?-Sometimes
one-half, and sometimes more and sometimes less.
3092. What is the cost of dyeing?-We pay 1s. a dozen for dyeing;
and there is the freight south and the freight back again, and we
require to re-dress a great many of them.
3093. So that some of these veils may actually cost you 1s. 6d.?-
Yes; and some of them cost less.
3094. What margin of profit does that leave?-I really cannot say.
I think no Shetland merchant can tell the exact profit he has on any
of his goods.
3095. But there are a number of incidental expenses of that kind,
which bring the actual cost of the veils up to about 1s. 6d.
apiece?-Yes.
[Page 69]
3096. May that be said with regard to other goods also?-It can be
said of shawls.
3097. You think the expenses of that kind for sending south, and
dyeing and re-dressing, often make the cost of production nearly
equal to the selling price?-Yes; and in many cases more than the
selling price.
3098. How much wool would there be in a dozen of these Shetland
veils?-I should say there would be twenty-one cuts of Shetland
wool in a dozen No. 1 veils at 18s.
3099. What is the price of that Shetland wool per cut?-3d. is the
price for a fairish quality. Some of the veils turn out very bad
from the 3d. worsted, while others turn out to be a little better.
3100. Therefore the worsted costs 5s. 3d., the knitting 9s., and the
dressing 1s. 6d.: that leaves 2s. 3d. What proportion of these veils
can go to the market without any dyeing or re-dressing?-I don't
think there will be more than half of them. The worsted looks
very well before it is given out to the knitter; but when it comes
back, there are dark and light bars through it.
3101. Then upon one-half of them you have the expense of a
double freight to Edinburgh, and also the expense of dyeing and of
re-dressing?-Yes.
3102. But it is only a fraction of those sent south require to be
re-dressed when they come back?-They all require to be
re-dressed when they come back from the dyers.
3103. What dyers do you send them to?-P. & P. Campbell,
Cockburn Street, Edinburgh.
3104. What is their charge for dyeing?-I think it 1s. 6d.; but they
give 5 per cent. off at the end of the season.
3105. Coming to the English wool; I see there are four dozen black
veils No. 5s. 33s., made with English wool: what quantity of wool
is required to make dozen of these?-It requires about 3 oz. for a
dozen, or about a quarter oz. to make a single veil.
3106. Do you sell that wool by the ounce or the pound?-We buy
it by the pound, at 32s. 6d.
3107. Then 3 oz. would cost about 6s.?-Yes; a fraction over that.
We don't give them to the knitters here; we give them to a person
in the country, who gets them knitted for us. We pay 14s. for the
knitting of them to that person in the country.
3108. Is there any particular reason for employing a party in the
country for that kind of goods?-We think we can get them better
done in that district of the country.
3109. Where is that?-In Unst.
3110. Who is your agent there?-It is a private person. I would
rather not tell her name in public.
3111. What is the expense of dressing these veils?-1s. 6d. a
dozen.
3112. Does the same proportion of them require dyeing as in the
other case?-No; none of these require dyeing, because they are
black.
3113. Then there is no expense for dyeing with regard to them?-
Very seldom.
3114. Is that sum of 21s. 6d. the whole cost of production of these
veils?-No.
3115. What additional cost is there?-There is about the same
proportion of them both in the knitting and in the dressing that gets
damaged, we cannot get the prices for them that we allow for the
knitting.
3116. Do you mean that such a large proportion of them are
destroyed in the knitting and the dressing, that you cannot sell
them?-Yes; we cannot sell them at very much more than
half-price.
3117. What proportion of them are so damaged?-I cannot say
exactly; but I should think about the same proportion as in the
other case.
3118. Therefore the high price you put upon these veils is intended
to cover the loss incurred in that way?-Yes.
3319. The damage, I understand, occurs in the dressing?-Yes;
and in the knitting too. There are a good many black lumps in the
wool, and the people are very careless, and knit in the black lumps,
and thus destroy the veils.
3120. Under what description do you sell these damaged veils?-
As job lots; but I wish to state that the woman whom we employ in
this way is a dealer, and we have to give the goods to her at a very
great reduction. We have to give them to her at the wholesale
price. The goods which we pay for the knitting are sold much
cheaper to her than to others.
3121. You pay this woman in goods?-Yes; at wholesale prices.
It is almost the same as cash, because we have to give the goods so
much cheaper.
3122. Does she keep a shop?-No; but she deals in a small way. I
think she has a room in which she has some small things. It is in
one sense a shop, and in another it is not.
3123. Do you require as much as 11s. 6d. to cover what you lose
on the job lots?-I think we do.
3124. Have you any books here which show an entry of a job lot of
that kind?-I don't have them here.
3125. How does that appear in your books?-They are entered as
so many dozen veils job.
3126. They are entered in that way in your day-book as sent south
to your correspondent in Edinburgh?-Yes; there are a good many
of the same kind of veils, which having to lie over the season get
crushed, and are taken back and re-dressed, and sent south again.
3127. But losses of that kind occur in all trades, I suppose?-I
suppose so.
3128. You said you would charge for a job lot about half-price?-
Less than half-price.
3129. Can you calculate how many job lots there would be out of
say ten dozen of these black veils?-I have often taken one-half of
them out for job lots.
3130. Do you say that, as a rule, there would be five dozen job lots
in ten dozen black veils?-Very often there are that number.
3131. Would that be an average?-I think average is scarcely so
high, but very near it.
3132. Then, of all the black veils No. 5 sent to your correspondent
in Edinburgh, nearly one-half will be job lots?-Yes; of the one
kind of veils-that is-the finest kind. There are very few of the
cheaper veils jobbed in the same way,
3133. Why are there so many of them in these fine veils?-The
worsted is so fine, that they get torn, and the slightest mistake
injures them.
3134. Will you show me an entry of some veils of the medium
quality?-Here [showing] is an entry of No. 7 veils at 24s.: these
are Shetland wool.
3135. I would rather take a case where English wool was used?-I
don't think there is any case of that kind there. No. 2 is the only
one very near it of English wool.
3136. Here [showing] is an entry of four dozen black veils No. 2,
21s.: what would the cost of wool be there?-About 10s. 6d, per
pound.
3137. What quantity of wool would be required for a dozen?-I
think 1 oz. would make three veils.,
3138. Then 4 oz. would make a dozen; that is 2s. 71/2d. as the cost
of wool for a dozen?-Yes.
3139. What would be the cost of knitting a dozen?-12s. in goods.
3140. And of dressing?-1s. 6d.
3141. Have you to dye these?-No; we don't dye them.
3142. Is there the same risk of loss from their being spoiled as in
the other case?-Not quite the same; but there are a certain
number of job lots there too.
3143. What proportion of job lots may there be in that sort of
veil?-Generally from one-eighth to one-fourth of the whole.
3144. Do these sell at half-price, or more than half-price?-
Generally about half-price-sometimes a shade less and
sometimes a shade more, according to the state of the market.
3145. Then the price you charge for them, 21s. is calculated to
cover the loss upon job lots?-Yes.
3146. There is thus a difference of nearly 5s. between the cost
price and the selling price of these No. 2 veils: is it not the fact that
that difference is allowed for profit?-It is the fact that it is not
allowed for a profit: the profit is not so much.
[Page 70]
3147. But it is calculated so as to allow you a certain amount of
profit?-Yes; a certain amount.
3148. That is not the actual profit receive; but the price is so
calculated as to cover the loss upon job lots and to allow you a
certain amount of profit as well?-Yes.
3149. In fact, so as to make it safe that you may get some profits-
Yes.
3150. Is that not so with the prices, of all your hosiery goods?-
With the lace goods that we get knitted it is the case. We only put
out lace goods to be knitted; we buy all the other goods over the
counter.
3151. What do you mean by lace goods?-Lace shawls and veils,
principally, and neckties.
3152. Do you call all the open lace goods Shetland goods, whether
they are made of English or Shetland wool?-Yes.
3153. This [showing] is an invoice of shawls?-Yes.
3154. Is there any material difference, with respect to the shawls,
from the calculations with regard to the cost of production and
profit which we have just made with respect to the veils?-I think
it is very similar.
3155. It comes to something like the same thing?-Yes; but the
difference is not quite so marked.
3156. You think there is not so much difference in the cost to you,
in the case of shawls, as in the case of veils?-No; because we
don't get job shawls, and we don't require to guard against that.
3157. Are there no job shawls at all?-It is extremely seldom that
there are any.
3158. Therefore, in that case, you require to make the margin
less?-Yes.
3159. What do you think would be the percentage of profit upon
the lots of veils and shawls mentioned in this account
[showing]?-I really could not say. I am quite sure that no person
in the trade could tell that.
3160. You have never made an exact calculation of it?-Never.
3161. Can you give me an approximation to it? Will it be 10 per
cent.?-Yes; it will be more.
3162. Will it be under 15?-I think it will be.
3163. That is not taking into consideration the fact that they are
paid for in goods?-There is nothing like 15 per cent. in that view.
I am taking the whole profit in every way connected with them.
3164. But the question I am asking is, whether, calculating the cost
of production in money as I have done just now, and calculating
the selling price in money, the profit realized upon these two
invoices you have handed to me will amount to 10 or 15 per
cent.?-I don't exactly understand the question.
3165. We have been calculating the cost of the article to you?-
Yes; and the real cost to us, I would say the profit will be 15 per
cent.
3166. Then, in addition to that, you sell goods to the parties who
bring in the articles?-Not in addition to that.
3167. You don't mean to say that you give your goods in return for
these articles at cost price?-No, we don't.
3168. You have a profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we don't have
a separate profit of 15 per cent. on the hosiery.
3169. But the purpose of the calculations we have been going into
just now is to show what the hosiery costs?-Yes; what is the cost
to Mr. Linklater.
3170. How do you get at the actual cost?-I cannot get at it
exactly. I really don't know what it is.
3171. But when you say you pay a woman 10s. for knitting, that is
marked down in your book as the price paid to her for knitting, just
in the same way as if it had been paid in money?-Yes; but I say
that we don't have 15 per cent. of profit on these goods over and
above the profit we have on the goods given to the knitter.
3172. But, setting aside in the meantime the fact that the women
are paid in goods, and supposing that the 10s. entered in your book
is paid to the knitter in cash, do you mean to say that your profit is
not 10 or 15 per cent.?-If it was cash, I should say it was 10 or 15
per cent.,-on some things a little more, and on some things a
little less.
3173. I am speaking of the hosiery exclusively at present; but in
point of fact the 10s. that is entered in your book as the cost of
knitting is invariably, or almost invariably, settled for by means of
goods on the other side of the account?-Yes.
3174. Are these goods charged to the knitter at wholesale prices or
at retail prices?-At retail prices.
3175. Then that retail price implies that there is a profit on the
goods?-That is what I am saying; but I say that we don't have 15
per cent. profit on the shawls, and a profit on the goods besides. I
say that if we were paying the actual cash for the knitting of the
shawls, then we might have 15 per cent. of profit.
3176. Do you mean that if you were paying actual cash for the
knitting of the shawls, you would allow smaller profit on your
goods?-I do.
3177. Then when you said with regard to the grey veils No. 1, at
18s., that the cost of knitting was 9s. a dozen, that payment to the
knitter was higher than if you paid her in cash?-Yes.
3178. How much higher?-I think that one would not be safe in
that case to pay more than 7s. or 7s. 6d., but some knitters make
rather better things than others. Of course that is only my own
opinion, and it is a thing I have never discussed either one way or
another.
3179. You don't sell the Shetland worsted?-No.
3180. And you say an average price for it is 3d. a cut?-Yes; fine
worsted may be from 3d. to 6d. a cut.
3181. The payment for that is generally in goods?-No, it is
generally in cash, but we do sometimes get it for goods.
3182. You pay for it generally in cash: how do you account for that
deviation from your general practice in Shetland?-We buy a good
lot of it from merchants, and there are a good many old women
who spin for a living, who we think require the cash. There is also
such a demand for it that we are very glad to get it for cash, when
the market is generally overstocked with everything else.
3183. Is there much Shetland wool sold in the southern
markets?-No; we only send very small quantities of it south, for
darning purposes.
3184. Are you aware whether there are merchants in Shetland,
either in Lerwick or in the country, who send Shetland wool to the
southern markets?-I know it has been sent from Yell.
3185. To a large extent?-No; it is not produced to a large extent.
All that is produced in Shetland is very trifling.
3186. How did it happen to be sent from Yell?-Because a hosiery
merchant in the south, who was selling their goods, got an order
for worsted, and it was sent to him. I only know or that one
instance.
3187. Was it sent by a proprietor?-I am not sure. It was Mr. Pole
of Greenbank who sent it. I rather think his father is proprietor of
Greenbank. Mr. Pole is now at Mossbank.
3188. What is the cost per pound of that worsted which sells at 3d.
per cut?-Ordinary good 3d. worsted should be about 20s. a
pound.
3189. Therefore it is not so dear as the English worsted?-It is
much dearer.
3190. But there is some of the English worsted high as 32s. a
pound?-Yes; but we have bought Shetland wool at 96s.
3191. Is that the finest quality of Shetland worsted?-Yes
3192. How much is that per cut?-I think about 7d. We have paid
7d. a cut for it, and on weighing it out I have found there were 12
cuts to the ounce. A cut is 100 threads, and a reel is about a yard
long, or scarcely so much.
3193. There will be a greater number of cuts in a pound of fine
worsted than in a pound of coarse worsted?-Yes.
3194. So that the proportion between the price per [Page 71] cut
and the price per pound will differ very much?-Yes
3195. In your trade is there any quantity of goods sold for cash?-
Yes.
3196. Are these marked and sold at the same price as those which
you give in return for hosiery?-Yes; they are marked at the same
price, and generally sold at the same price. On rare occasions
there is a slight discount given for ready cash.
3197. How much is that discount?-I should say about 1s. per £1.
3198. Why is that not allowed when the settlement with
hosiery?-Because we consider that in our transactions throughout
the year we do not realize for our hosiery goods the full price
which we pay.
3199. Have you two shops?-Yes.
3200. In one of these is hosiery kept and bought?-In one of them
hosiery is kept; it is only in bought that shop now on very rare
occasions. When Mr. Linklater or I happen to be there, we may
buy something, and send the customer to the other shop to settle
for it.
3201. Then the buying of hosiery is only conducted in the drapery
shop?-The settlement for hosiery is only conducted in the hosiery
shop.
3202. As a rule, a person selling a shawl or veil would go to the
drapery shop?-Yes; and if Mr. Linklater or I was not there, she
would go to the other shop to see if we were there.
3203. How do you settle with them if the purchase is made in the
hosiery shop?-Generally one of us goes across with them, and on
other occasions we give a line to the other shop such as this: '12s.
R. L.,'-just the sum and the initials, and they go to the other
shop, where it is settled at once.
3204. That is in cases of purchase, and has nothing to do with your
knitters?-Nothing; unless in the case of the dresser, who has to
bring all the dressed goods to the other shop. She sometimes gets
a similar line; at other times she just tells the amount. Of course
we put every confidence in her; and whether she has a line or not,
she is settled with all the same.
3205. Do you exchange a large quantity of tea for hosiery and
knitted work?-Not a large quantity; only a small quantity.
3206. Was it larger formerly than it is now?-I don't think it.
3207. The principal dealing is in goods?-Yes; in goods. Of
course when people ask for tea, they are never refused it; but we
don't sell much.
3208. Do you give them tea for goods at the ordinary market price
that it is got at in the other grocery shops in town?-I have no idea
what their tea costs them at other places. One merchant does not
know what another merchant's goods are sold for.
3209. At what prices do you sell your teas?-Generally at 9d. and
10d. per quarter.
3210. Have you only two qualities?-Yes.
3211. Is it always sold in quarter pounds?-No; it is sometimes
sold in half ounces.
3212. It is just put up as the people ask for it?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3213. Have you anything further to add to the evidence you
previously gave?-I produce a list of names of parties who have
sold goods to me, and they can be examined as to the prices they
have got for their goods, that the range of prices may be
ascertained. [Produces list.]
3214. I believe you also wish to explain something about the
number of your knitters?-Yes; I made a mistake about that. I
find from the index in our workers' book that the number is
upwards of 300. I believe, however, that a great number of the
knitters who appear in our books will also appear in the books of
other merchants. They take work from two or perhaps three, at the
same time; and consequently the aggregate number of knitters is
not represented by the number that is found collectively in the
books of the employers.
3215. You wish also to speak about Catherine Borthwick's
evidence. She said she had never got any money from you; that
she had asked you about two years ago for 1s,, when there was
about 5s. 6d. due to her; that you refused it; and that she had never
asked you for any since?-I have no evidence either to corroborate
or to disprove that statement. I have not the least recollection of
it; but I don't believe that it happened
3216. Is there anything in your books to contradict it?-Nothing.
3217. Then there is nothing for it but her statement, and your
statement on the other side?-Quite so.
3218. In a large business like yours there might be a cash
transaction at a time, apart from your books, which was settled for
there and then?-Yes, it might have been; but it is a very unlikely
thing that she asked me for 1s. in cash and I refused it unless I had
very good grounds for doing so. She was generally behind in my
books.
3219. But what she deponed to might have happened when she
was behind?-Yes; I think it was very seldom, until I settled up
with her, that she was not behind.
3220. In the work-book, I notice that dressing is occasionally
charged against you on the credit side?-That is in the case where
the knitter also dresses, and she is paid for that as well as for the
knitting. We sometimes included both in the same payment, but
not very often. Now we always separate them.
3221. When you were examined previously with regard to the cost
of the wool in a shawl made of English wool, were you speaking
of the price which you paid for the wool, or of the price at which
you would retail it?-With regard to English or south-country
wool, I may just repeat what I said before; that we really do very
little in it, especially for fine shawls. I never charged 30s., or
anything like it, for a shawl made of Pyrenees wool, because I did
not consider that it was real Shetland goods.
3222. Then you deal in the real Shetland goods?-Yes, mostly.
Occasionally, if I have to send a shawl of another kind to the
south, I state that it is not handspun wool-that it is not the real
Shetland wool.
3223. So that the great majority of your goods consists of Shetland
wool; and in estimating the cost of production of a shawl, you
estimated it at the price you paid for the wool?-Just so.
3224. And not at the retail price to a customer?-No; it was the
cash price meant. There is one exception-that is, in the mohair
falls-similar to those Mr. Anderson has been referring to, where,
as rule, we pay a higher rate for knitting than that mentioned.
These mohair falls are the only thing we deal in that is not
Shetland.
3225. That is, the grey and black falls?-Yes. We never buy black
wool; we always dye the falls after they are knitted.
3226. Are falls and veils the same thing?-We don't buy the
mohair black; we think we get a more uniform shade of colour
when we buy them in the piece.
3227. I understand you have two shops?-Yes.
3228. One of them is a shop where you only deal in drapery
goods?-Yes; where we only deal for cash.
3229. There are no hosiery dealings carried on there?-No.
3230. Are the same prices charged for the drapery goods in the two
shops?-There is a very small shade of difference on some things.
Some things are exactly the same in both; on others there is a
small difference. I should say that there is such a difference on
calicoes. There are several things we sell in that shop, such as
fancy goods and sewed articles, which are not kept in our hosiery
shop at all; but winceys and stuff goods, such as camlets and
satteens, and other things for dresses, are charged alike in both
shops, so far as I remember.
[Page 72]
3231. Is there any difference made in the price of the tea?-We
don't sell tea in the drapery shop. While on this subject I would
call attention to one thing that was stated in Mr. Walker's
evidence. He said that the merchants gave mostly flowers and
ribands, and things of that description in exchange for the hosiery;
while the fact is that flowers and ribands are just the kind of goods
which I would avoid giving, if I could, because we do not realize a
profit on them. In our cash shop we never have flowers or ribands,
unless when we are obliged to have them for the accommodation
of our customers; and we would rather want them. I was four
years in the trade, so far as I recollect, before I had any flowers or
ribands in stock at all, because I knew from former experience
they were a thing which did not pay.
3232. What is the reason why these things do not pay?-They may
pay some people in the south, who charge a higher rate for them;
but we do not charge so high for them as in the south.
3233. How are you obliged to have them now?-Because the
people will have them, and they have got into the habit of buying
them at the ordinary rates. An ordinary retail profit put on any of
these things won't pay us, because so many of the flowers are lost,
crushed, or destroyed; and sometimes I have seen us have to throw
a box of them from the pier. Another thing is that ribands go out
of fashion. There are boxes of ribands standing in my shop, which
I would sell for one-fourth of the cash I paid for them.
3234. Do you not keep these, goods because you find it necessary
to have them in order to induce people to come to your shop with
their hosiery goods?-By no means. They come without any
inducement of that kind.
3235. But they want them when they are selling their hosiery?-
We could do without them, for that part of it. There are many
customers who come for them, as well as hosiery customers.
When we want a particular article of hosiery, and have an order for
it, we can arrange, and often do arrange, to buy it for cash; and the
people may go and buy their goods where they like. That is
frequently done when we have a standing order for an article; so
that we do not keep these things as baits for the public at all.
3236. You buy a good deal of wool from the north isles?-Yes.
3237. I think you said you did not send any of it south?-No; I
don't require to send it south.
3238. Are you aware of Shetland wool being bought and sent south
in considerable quantities?-I was told by a south-country dealer
that he had bought a considerable quantity of wool from Shetland;
but that is all. I know about it. I have no personal knowledge of
the thing being done.
3239. You don't understand that it is bought up by the proprietors
or factors or middle-men?-I never heard anything about that,
except from Mr. Walker's evidence; and it is a dream.
3240. You don't buy it yourself for any purpose of that kind?-No;
there are none of the merchants who do that. There is one thing in
my previous evidence which I wish to correct: I thought of it after I
left here. In calculating the value of a 30s. shawl, I put down 14s.
as the value of the knitting; but in that case I did not make the
deduction I should have made for the percentage of the goods paid
for it, which would increase the real profit to the dealer. As,
however, in a great many instances, when we require a fine shawl
of that kind, a good deal of it is paid in cash, I think that, taking it
as a general thing, not more than 1s., 6d. would fall to be deducted
for that from the figure I gave. In some cases the price is paid
wholly in cash, especially for things of that kind. That sum of 1s.
6d. would therefore fall to be added to the profit if the article was
paid in goods; but if paid in cash, then my statement was quite
correct.
3241. Did you hear the evidence which has been given by Mr.
Anderson with regard to the cost of making shawls and veils?-I
did.
3242. It was mostly veils he spoke to, and the selling price of
them: do you think his calculations that on subject were generally
near the truth?-I believe they were perfectly correct, so far as my
own experience goes, but I may say that my experience in that
matter has been somewhat different from his, inasmuch, as for that
class of wool, and knitting. I often pay a higher rate to good
knitters. There is this; however, to be said in my case, that I do not
have so many job lots, which compensates to a great extent for the
difference; and another thing is that I do not charge such a high
price for them as he stated, when sending them south. If I am
selling to a private individual, I may but it is very seldom that I sell
to private individuals.
3243. That may be accounted for in this way: that you sell more to
wholesale customers, while I suppose Mr. Linklater's business in
Edinburgh is really a retail business?-Yes; he has a very
extensive establishment in Edinburgh.
3244. His own establishment there is a retail one; so that the prices
Mr. Anderson was speaking of were probably retail prices?-I
suppose so. I think if the one was balanced with the other, there
would be found to be very little difference between Mr. Linklater's
experience in the trade and my own. I wish it to be distinctly
understood, that when I said we got no profit, on the goods except
what we realized on the first purchase, I meant that we do not
realize indeed we often don't realize so much-as the price we
paid for them in goods. In particular cases, we may charge a shade
over what the thing has actually cost us; but there are a great many
articles for which we must charge less, and that much more than
balances the other. If our customers in the south were private
individuals or consumers, we could very easily pay the same rate
in cash that we now pay in goods, but as we have to sell to retail
dealers in a wholesale way, we cannot afford to do that, unless we
were to rob the retail dealer of his profit altogether.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, examined.
3245. You are the daughter of Mr. Sinclair, who has just been
examined, and one of the assistants in shop?-Yes.
3246. Are you sometimes concerned in the purchase of hosiery
goods?-No; I never purchase hosiery.
3247. You only sell in the shop?-Yes.
3248. Is it the case that the lines which are given out in your
father's shop are generally brought back by the same parties to
whom they are issued? Do you know who the lines are given
to?-No; we keep no note of their names.
3249. But do you happen to know them?-I know several cases in
which the lines have been brought back by the same parties to
whom they were given out; and there have been other cases where
I know that they have been given by that party to another party,
just the same as sending them an errand.
3250. Do you know of any cases in which they have been brought
back by people with whom they have been exchanged for money
or for goods which could not be got in your father's shop?-No;
they would never mention such a thing to us.
3251. And no such case has come within your knowledge?-I have
heard vague reports of such things being done but nothing that I
could, state positively. I know that if they had come to the shop
and asked money for their lines, they would have got 10d., in the
shilling for them from my father.
3252. Have you ever been asked for that?-Very seldom. There
was one girl who came in a few nights ago and offered me a veil.
My father happened to be in the back shop, and I went to him with
it, and he said he would give her 1s. 4d. for the veil. I came back
to the girl, and she said, 'Would I give her 1s. 4d. in money?' I
said, 'Certainly not,' because the veil season was over; and also I
did think that money [Page 73] and goods were the same thing. I
said I would give here 1s. 1d. in money, and she asked if I would
give her 1s. 2d. I said, 'No;' I would only give her 1s. 1d. and she
took that and went away.
3253. Is that a usual sort of transaction?-No. I never heard them
asking for money before; at least not asking for it in that way. I
have heard them wanting to get the same price in money that they
got in goods.
3254. Is that a common thing for them to ask?-Well, it is.
3255. Do you know anything about the work-book?-Yes.
3256. Do you sometimes settle the accounts in that book with the
knitters?-Occasionally, when the clerk is out.
3257. Are the items in the account always read over to the
knitter?-Yes.
3258. Is there any receipt or acknowledgment given when an
account is settled?-Occasionally they take a line for the amount
if the balance is in their favour, because sometimes the shop is so
crowded that we don't have time to turn up the account.
3259. In that case the account is marked as settled in full?-Yes.
3260. In other cases the balance is carried to the next account
simply, without any line?-Yes.
3261. Is the work-book kept in the shop, or in the office at the
back?-We used to keep it in the shop, but they came and
bothered us at the time we were writing, and we thought it better
to keep it in the office. But we take the book into the front shop,
and read the items over to them when we settle.
3262. If a woman comes with work and gets it entered in the
work-book, and then wants a certain quantity of goods, do you
communicate with the clerk at the back before giving out the
goods, in order to see the state of her account?-Yes.
3263. Who enters the goods in the book?-The clerk, when he is
present; or if he is not present, then any of us who retail the goods
may enter them.
3264. Do you go into the back shop for the purpose of doing
that?-I take down a note of the goods they get on a slip of paper.
3265. And the contents of that slip are entered into the book?-
Yes, by the clerk.
3266. Then there may be a great number of these slips to enter in
the course of the day?-They are handed to the clerk at once. If
he is busy about anything else, any of us may take the book and
mark the goods in ourselves.
3267. Are these slips preserved?-No.
3268. They are just destroyed when entered?-Yes. I have
occasionally given them to the people themselves, if it was a case
where they were getting goods for another person. If they had
been sent an errand by any one, I have handed them their slip, in
order to show the person who sent them what they had got.
3269. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to say that in
a very short time the Shetland wool will be entirely destroyed,
because the breed of sheep is wearing out. The Cheviot wool is
taking its place.
3270. You mean that the introduction of Cheviot sheep into
Shetland is entirely destroying the breed of native sheep?-Yes.
3271. Do you do a good deal in purchasing wool from the Shetland
people?-No; I don't purchase but I know the quality of it.
3272. Do you find from the qualities that pass through your hands,
that the Shetland wool is not so good as it used to be?-Yes; it is
deteriorating very much.
3273. You find it is becoming more like what you buy from the
south?-Yes; there is a great difference upon it. There is more
elasticity in the Shetland wool than in the Pyrenees wool.
3274. Do you buy the wool yourself?-No; it is spun and knitted
by people.
3275. Do they bring it to you, or have you people who gather it in
for you?-They bring it to us to the shop: and I have heard the
people very often making complaints that they could not get wool
at all from any source.
3276. How do you buy wool?-We do not buy wool at all.
3277. Do you buy Shetland worsted?-Yes.
3278. Do the spinners bring it to your shop and sell it?-Very
seldom. We buy it mostly from merchants in the country-in Unst
and Fetlar. When a spinner comes in with worsted, she generally
wants ready money for it.
3279. When a woman comes with it or sends it, how is she
paid?-She gets anything she asks for-either goods at wholesale
prices, or the cash.
3280. When you buy worsted and give goods for it, you give them
at the wholesale prices it is the same as cash?-Yes.
3281. Are there many merchants who deal in that kind of way?-I
suppose most of them do so in the places where it is made. It is
mostly in the north isles. Occasionally, I think, they do a little in
Dunrossness.
3282. Is it bought in by a shopkeeper at Dunrossness?-I don't
know how it is done. I simply know that there are some goods
made there.
3283. But where do you get your worsted from?-We don't get
worsted from any merchant in Dunrossness. I was merely stating
where the worsted was spun.
3284. Do you get Shetland worsted from merchants in the north of
the mainland as well as in the north isles?-Yes.
3285. Do you get any from Mossbank or Lunna?-No.
3286. Do you get any from Northmavine?-I think we get a little
worsted from a merchant there. The books will show where it is
got.
3287. Do you know about the prices paid for goods bought in the
shop? I don't mean goods knitted you, but goods bought?-Yes.
3288. What do you generally pay for a dozen of men's hose?-I
think about 20s.-sometimes more, but very seldom less. That is a
thing very seldom sold now, except knickerbocker stockings.
3289. I see in an account five white lace shawls sold each. What
would be the price of these if bought over the counter?-8s. in
goods.
3290. If paid in cash, what would the price be?-About is 9d., I
should say.
3291. Do you buy many of them for cash?-We sometimes buy
the larger things for cash. I have been in the shop when large
shawls were paid for in that way.
3292. In the same account I see twelve hap-shawls at 11s. 6d.:
what would these be bought for across the counter?-It is very
likely that 11s. 6d. would be paid for them in goods.
3293. In this account I see one hap-shawl entered at 14s., and
then at 13s.: what does that mean?-It means that 14s., was paid
for it, and it was sold for 13s. Perhaps it may have been slightly
ill-coloured.
3294. In the wholesale trade list which has been given in, I see
white, brown, and grey shawls, natural colours, charged 8s. 6d. to
18s.: do you know, from what you see in the shop, the prices at
which these are generally bought over the counter?-They are just
bought at the same prices at which they are invoiced, and which
are put down there.
3295. When a shawl is brought to the shop and paid for in goods,
is it ticketed for the south market?-Yes; the fine shawls are
ticketed.
3296. Wrap or winter shawls, 8s. 6d.: would these be ticketed?-
No.
3297. Why?-Because my father knows the prices so well; they
are sold by measure.
3298. The prices at which they are charged do not depend so much
on fancy?-No.
3299. Then the prices of these shawls are fixed afterwards?-Yes.
3300. How do you know that the prices which are charged for
these shawls are the same as have been paid for them over the
counter?-Because I have seen haps sold at the counter for 8s. 6d.;
and afterwards, [Page 74] when they were ready for the market,
they were charged at the same, or nearly the same, price.
3301. Don't you sometimes see them charged at a higher price?-I
cannot say exactly, because I do not always notice what the prices
are; but I know that I have sometimes seen the same prices
charged. I have noticed that particularly in haps.
3302. There are grey and brown long shawls, 20s. to 24s. are these
also haps?-Yes.
3303. Are they generally bought at from 20s. to 24s.?-Yes.
3304. And sold at the same prices?-Yes, I have noticed that.
3305. You have nothing to do with the pricing of them yourself?-
Nothing at all. I merely see the tickets, and recognise the article.
Perhaps there was something particular about it which led me to
recognise it.
3306. How often has that happened?-I could not say.
3307. Has it happened a dozen times?-It has surely happened
more than a dozen times. That is a very small number.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, examined.
3308. Are you a shopman to Mr. Sinclair?-Yes.
3309. You are not the bookkeeper?-No.
3310. Do you know the prices at which hosiery goods are bought
across the counter?-Yes.
3311. Do you also know the prices at which these same goods are
invoiced to the southern market?-Yes.
3312. Is the price at which they are bought and the price at which
they are sold the same, or different, on the ordinary run of
goods?-They are charged to the wholesale or the retail dealer in
the south at the same price as we pay for them in goods at the
counter.
3313. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes.
3314. The goods, I understand, are not all ticketed when
bought?-Fine shawls are generally ticketed, but haps and other
goods are judged of afterwards, when being looked out in order to
be sent to the market in the south.
3315. In the case of fine shawls, is it within your own knowledge
that the ticket put upon them at the time of the purchase bears
generally the same price as has been paid for them in goods?-
Yes. Mr Sinclair puts up these goods himself for the market, and
the ticket is put on them at the time of the purchase, in order to
bring to his remembrance, when he is putting them up for the
market, the price he paid for them at the counter.
3316. In all these cases there is only one valuation of the shawl,
and it is made to the person who brings it to you for sale?-Yes.
3317. The ticket is put on them, and the invoice price is the same
as the price on the ticket?-Yes, the same.
3318. Do you make no allowance, in that case, for the loss upon
the dressing or the dyeing of the shawl?-When a girl comes with
an article that is ill-coloured, she may ask a certain price for it;
but we state that we cannot give her that price, owing to it being
ill-coloured, and that it requires to be dyed. In that case we deduct
the price of the dyeing from the price which is paid to her.
3319. Is that deduction made before the price is put on the
ticket?-We don't ticket it then. It has to be sent south to the
dyer, and to come back and to be dressed here.
3320. In that case you must make an estimate, because you cannot
identify the shawl afterwards?-No; we just leave it to our own
judgment afterwards.
3321. Then it appears that you don't invoice the goods at exactly
the same price that is paid in every case?-We don't invoice them
at the same price if we are selling them to private individuals; but
when we sell them to a retail dealer, we invoice them at the same
price.
3322. But you have said that very often you require to send them
to the dyer, in which case they are not ticketed at the time you
purchase them?-No; but the retail dealer must pay for the dyeing.
3323. But the goods are not always ticketed at the time they are
bought?-No; not always. I did not say they were.
3324. Are they ticketed, as a rule, when they are bought?-The
finest of the lace goods or shawls are ticketed.
3325. And veils?-No, not veils; but the fine lace shawls are
generally ticketed.
3326. How is the invoice price of the veils fixed, if they are not
ticketed when they are bought?-We can easily judge of the
quality of a veil by looking at it, and we can tell what we paid for
it. Of course, in fixing the price, we always refer to what we paid
for it, and we know that at a glance by the quality of the work and
the worsted.
3327. You cannot tell what you paid for a particular lot of veils,
because you cannot identify them?-No.
3328. But you know by the quality what they likely to have cost
you?-Yes.
3329. Is the price at which veils are sold generally the same as that
at which they are bought?-Yes. Veils which have been bought
across the counter are charged at the same price that we consider
we paid for them.
3330. Are many of the shawls dyed?-A good many. Some are
dyed on account of being ill-coloured. Perhaps we don't discover,
at the time when they are taken in over the counter, that they are
ill-coloured; we only find that out afterwards, and then we have to
dye them. Sometimes we dye shawls, not on account of them
being ill-coloured, but because we require them of a particular
colour.
3331. Is that done with fine shawls?-Both with fine and coarse.
3332. But not with haps?-Sometimes with haps too. We dye
haps scarlet and black.
3333. Therefore there is a considerable quantity of the shawl
goods which it is not possible to ticket at the time when they are
bought, because they have afterwards to be dyed-Yes, a
considerable quantity.
3334. And, in that case, the price is fixed afterwards, according to
your own notions of the quality?-Yes.
3335. Who fixes the invoice price of shawls when they are sent out
finally to the market?-Mr. Sinclair himself. He takes that
department.
3336. Do you know whether, in doing so, he takes into account the
market price in the south?-Although he makes up the articles,
they pass through my hands in packing, and I see the tickets. They
generally have a ticket on them, in order to guide the clerk in
checking them and entering them into the book.
3337. But you don't know the principle on which Mr. Sinclair
values these shawls when they are invoiced?-He just judges of
them in the same manner as he did at first when taking them in
over the counter.
3338. What proportion of the shawls may be revalued in that
way?-Will it be one-third or one-half of them?-They are all
re-valued in that way, unless those which are ticketed.
3339. But what proportion of them are not ticketed at first?-I
could not say.
3340. Is it not the case that very few of them are ticketed at
first?-There are only the finest lace shawls that are ticketed at
first.
3341. Therefore the bulk of the shawls are not ticketed then, but
valued afterwards?-Yes; they are valued in the same manner at
that time as they were when taken in at the counter.
3342. Are you in a position to state whether or not that valuation
which is made when they are sent out exceeds the valuation which
is put upon them when they are purchased for the market?-I have
reason to believe from Mr. Sinclair's long experience in the trade,
that he will know to a fraction what he paid for the [Page 75]
shawls; and I can swear that they are not charged by him at a
higher price than the price which was paid for them in goods at
the counter. Of course deductions are made afterwards by the
wholesale dealer, if he thinks the article is inferior.
3343. Do you issue the lines which are given out in the shop?-I
very often issue lines. I perhaps issue more of them than any one
else.
3344. Do you also serve customers who have lines?-Yes.
3345. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that the lines are
generally brought back by the parties to whom they were originally
given out?-They are generally brought back by the owner of the
hosiery.
3346. Is it the party herself to whom the line has been given that
usually brings it back?-Very often but sometimes they may send
a line in by another party as a messenger.
3347. How do you know that?-Sometimes a line may be brought
back an hour after it has been given out, by a different party, and
they will perhaps make remark in order to let me know that they
have been sent by the party to whom the line belonged.
3348. Are you aware that the lines are exchanged or sold by the
parties to whom they were first issued?-I have heard something
to that effect this very morning.
3349. But you have not known of that in your own experience?-
No. It has not come under my notice, unless from report.
3350. Does the party bringing one of these lines for goods ever tell
you that she had purchased it?-No. I don't remember an instance
of that kind.
3351. You don't remember any particular case in which there had
been a sale of the line for cash, or for other goods which you don't
supply?-I say there was an instance this morning which came
under my notice, in which a line had been exchanged, and in
which the party had got cash for the line.
3352. From whom had the cash been got?-I could give the name
of the party to whom the line belonged, but not of the other party.
3353. Was that an instance of a line being brought back by a
person to whom it had not been originally issued?-No; it was
merely a party in the shop who said that some time ago-she did
not state the time-she had a line which she had given to another
person, and had got cash for it. But at the same time she said that
she did not ask cash from Mr. Sinclair, or she might have got it.
She felt diffident in asking for cash, because she had brought her
hosiery to the shop on the understanding that she was to take
goods for it. The receipt she got had not been a cash transaction.
3354. Is that the only time, in your experience in the shop, that you
have heard of these lines being exchanged for cash, or for other
goods than those which Mr. Sinclair sells?-It is the only one I can
point to in particular.
3355. But do you swear that you don't know that lines have been
so exchanged?-No, I would not swear that. I said I have heard a
vague report that on several occasions they have been exchanged,
but I could not point to any other case than the one I have
mentioned.
3356. Is cash ever given in your shop upon lines?-Yes, often. It
is given on lines, even when the hosiery article has been taken in
over the counter with understanding that the party was to take all
goods for it.
3357. The lines bear that their value is to be given in goods but
notwithstanding that you know that cash had been given on
them?-Yes.
3358. How often?-I could not say how often, but I can point to
one woman in particular who has got cash in that way. She stated
that she was in need of it, and she got it even when the hosiery
article was taken with the understanding that only goods were to
be given for it.
3359. In that case, was any discount taken for cash?-No.
3360. Was the whole amount given in cash?-Yes, all cash. She
said she required it to buy meal with.
3361. What was the amount of that line?-It was the case with that
woman on several lines, not on one line in particular.
3362. Who was the woman?-I should prefer to give her name in
private.
3363. What proportion of her line was given in cash?-I could not
say what proportion, but she got the proportion she asked for. Of
course, when giving money in that way, we considered it was a
deduction from the profit on our goods.
3364. Then it was given as a sort of charity?-It might be
considered as a sort of favour, because it was a deduction from our
profit.
3365. Do you say that it was really a deduction from the profit?-
Yes.
3366. But you said before, and I have been informed by other
parties, that there is no profit at all upon the hosiery goods; so that
if you pay the lines in cash, you take away all the profit you make
upon a purchase of hosiery?-Yes; that is only if we charge the
wholesale dealer the same price.
3367. But you say that, practically, the wholesale dealer is charged
the same price?-Yes. Even should we pay the same price in cash
as we get from the wholesale dealer, if we were sure that this party
would come back to the shop with the money which we gave her
and take our goods, it would not be a loss; but if she did not come
back, then there would be a loss.
3368. In other words, the effect of the lines and of paying in goods
is, that these sellers of hosiery are bound to take their goods at
your shop, instead of another; and therein lies your profit?-Of
course. We just have our profit on the goods. We have two sales
for one profit.
3369. But you say that although you suspected, and had heard from
rumour, that these lines were commonly exchanged for money or
for other goods than you dealt in, you have known of no particular
case except the one you have mentioned?-No.
3370. Have you known of cases where goods which had been
delivered in return for hosiery had been exchanged by the women
for other goods or for cash?-I could not point out any case.
3371. Did you ever hear of any case?-I could not point out any
one.
3372. But did you ever hear of any such case?-I have heard that
rumour, the same as I heard of the other thing.
3373. Have the women told you that themselves?-Yes; just
speaking of it among the crowd in the shop.
3374. You don't remember the names of these women?-I do not.
3375. Have you any doubt at all that that is done?-No; I am led to
believe that it is done.
3376. How are you led to believe that?-Because I have heard the
vague report so often-not once, but several times.
3377. Does that report lead you to believe that it is done to any
great extent?-I could not say to what extent.
3378. How does report speak of it?-Just that it was not
uncommon. The report did not say that it was very common, but
only that it was common.
3379. Do you swear that you cannot remember the names of any
women who have done it?-I do.
3380. Or who have spoken to you about it?-None, except the one
who has said it to-day
3381. Or that you have heard speak of it?-No.
3382. In the journal, or work-book, I see that there is sometimes a
line entered. I do not mean merely that the balance is struck, but
sometimes there are entries, 'To lines.' Can you explain that?-
Sometimes the party that the account belongs to will have to pay
another party so much, and she gives us instructions to mark a line
for a certain amount in the book, and then give her that line to give
to the other party, who comes back with it and gets the amount in
goods.
3383. Then the line is granted to your knitters for the purpose of
paying their debt to another?-Yes.
3384. Is that frequently done?-Not very often. [Page 76] It has
happened occasionally. I have entered such lines myself in the
work-book; and sometimes, although not very often, when looking
over their account, instead of taking the balance that may be in
their favour, they will take a line for it. I may say, however, that
where hosiery has been taken from a person on the understanding
that they were to take all goods for it, I have never known a case
where cash was refused to them when they said they were in need
of it.
3385. That just amounts to this: that Mr. Sinclair, in a case of that
kind, throws away the whole of his profit?-Yes; it shows a
charitable spirit in Mr. Sinclair.
3386. In the case of Mary Ann Sinclair, there was an entry in the
journal of cash paid to William Smith for meal: can you explain
how that was done?-I heard Mr. Sinclair's examination about
that. His attention was directed to an entry of 'Cash, for meal,' he
was asked why that was not entered merely cash. I cannot say
whether the entry was in my writing or not, but I remember that
girl coming into the shop and asking for cash, and she made a
remark that it was for meal. I think that the entry is in my hand,
and that I just put it down as she said it.
3387. The giving of that cash was a deviation from your usual
practice?-Yes, these parties depend chiefly upon the knitting, and
they get a larger supply of cash than the general workers. There
are not many cases, I don't think we have a similar case in the
town, where the parties depend entirely on their knitting. Our
knitters belong chiefly to the country, and the knitting is with them
an extra piece of work.
3388. In the same witness's account there was another entry of
'Cash, for meal:' do you explain that in the same way?-Yes; but
of course they were at liberty to go to any shop for it they liked.
3389. Does the entry, 'To William Smith, for meal,' mean that you
paid the money directly to Smith?-Sometimes we did. His
account would show that the amount which he received from us
was just the same as had been marked to the women. In his
account he would state that he had given out so much meal to
them.
3390. Has Mr. Smith an account with R. Sinclair & Co.?-
Sometimes there was an account between them at that time.
3391. Was that account for supplies to work-people?-Sometimes
it would be for such supplies along with Mr. Sinclair's personal
account.
3392. Does Mr. Smith make frequent supplies to Mr. Sinclair's
work-people?-No; it has not been done very frequently.
3393. To what class of work-people are these supplies made?-
Chiefly to the party who has been already examined, Mary Ann
Sinclair, and that has not been done of late. These girls have not
been so dependent on their knitting lately, because they have got
help from another quarter.
3394. Then this payment for meal, and that payment to W. Smith
for meal, were really so much taken out of Mr. Sinclair's profit?-
I think so, because their knitting was estimated at the goods price,
not at the cash price.
3395. I see that in the same account there are other two entries of
purchases of meal?-Yes, that was merely put down because the
parties said they wanted meal, and for a considerable time they
had just a weekly allowance.
3396. The entries of these two purchases of meal are really
equivalent to entries of cash?-Yes; sometimes when it is said,
'Cash, for meal,' they got the cash into their own hands.
3397. And sometimes it was entered in the account with Mr.
Smith?-Yes.
3398. Was that account of Mr. Smith's a personal account of Mr.
Sinclair's?-I suppose it was just made out as an account of R.
Sinclair & Co.
3399. What was the nature of the dealings with Smith? Have you
seen his account?-I cannot remember. I saw the account when it
was handed in, but I cannot say what was in it.
3400. You don't know about it personally?-No.
3401. Is there anything you wish to state on the subject of this
inquiry?-I wish to state that, supposing a new system of cash
payments is adopted, there will be a change, which I don't think
will be altogether in favour of the worker. No doubt it would be to
some extent.
3402. What difference would there be?-I shall suppose that a
woman comes in with a shawl, say to-day, while the present
system exists, and gets 20s. in goods. She wants grey cotton, and
she will get forty yards of it for her 20s. To-morrow she comes in,
and the system is changed, and she must be paid in cash. Well,
she gets the cash, and she requires the same kind of goods, but she
thinks there is no need for going out of the shop, as the goods here
are as cheap as anywhere else. Then she will get for her cash the
usual discount of 5 per cent. That would be 16s. 91/2d., and she
would only have then about thirty-three yards of cotton instead of
forty yards.
3403. But in the case you have supposed, would not the cotton be
sold cheaper, because the merchant would not require to put all his
profit on the cotton, as you say he does now, but he would also put
a profit on the hosiery; and therefore he could afford to sell the
cotton at a smaller profit?-The merchant would not have two
profits on his hosiery.
3404. If he was buying for cash, he would?-No, it would merely
be embarking his capital a second time.
3405. If he were buying the shawl for 16s. in cash, would he not
sell it for 20s., as he does just now?-Yes; he would embark that
cash again.
3406. That allows a profit of 4s. upon the hosiery, perhaps under
deductions for certain contingencies; but it certainly allows a
profit which on your own statement, he does not have now.
According to your own statement, there is no profit on the hosiery
now, because it is bought for the same price in goods as it is sold
for; but if he were paying 16s. in cash for it, there would then be a
profit upon the hosiery of 3s. or 4s. Now, would not the fact that a
profit is taken upon the hosiery enable him to sell his cotton goods
with a somewhat less margin of profit than he does just now?-It
might.
3407. Besides, the case which you have put just now implies that
the woman wants something which Mr. Sinclair has in his shop?-
Yes.
3408. It does not allow at all for a case in which she wants
something different and in order to get which she might perhaps
have to part with the goods at a loss?-Viewing it in the light I
have stated would perhaps be a disadvantage to the knitter; but
there would certainly be an advantage to her, as she would have
cash with which to go and buy groceries or other things wherever
she wanted,
3409. Then that would be an advantage?-It would be an
advantage; but another disadvantage to her might be, that the
merchant would not take her goods at all unless he actually wanted
them and he had orders for them, and unless they were of good
quality. There would thus be only one advantage against two
disadvantages.
3410. But if one merchant did not take her goods, another would,
if they were worth buying at all?-Perhaps he might; but I was
only speaking about how the thing might act if such a system were
introduced. There might be a second advantage, in this way: that
more encouragement might be given to the trade in the south, as
the cash system might be a means of producing better articles.
The knitters might be induced to bestow more pains on the
manufacture of their goods and then there would not be periods
when the market was in a dead, dull kind of state, as it sometimes
is now.
3411. Is it ever in a dead, dull kind of state?-Yes, at certain
seasons it is.
3412. Is there ever a time when you refuse to take Shetland
goods?-Yes; at this very season we cannot buy veils at all,
because we have no market for them. The market is blocked up
entirely. But if the manufacture was improved, and the goods
were somewhat [Page 77] better than they are now, there might be
a regular flow of goods into the market.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3413. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to
Mr. Bruce's evidence as to the account with Smith, I think he is
mistaken in saying that there is any entry of that meal in any of
Smith's accounts. I remember only one case where Miss Sinclair
got her meal from Smith, and I went myself, either that day or the
following day, to him with the money. That is the only case I
know of; and I am almost sure there is no such thing as meal
supplied to her entered in any contra account of Mr. Smith,
because we paid the meal in cash at once. I know of no other
person being supplied by Mr. Smith except her. Another thing is
with regard to the number of shawls that are dyed. Mr. Bruce does
not seem to recollect that the number of shawls dyed bears a very
small proportion to the number of shawls we sell. It is only a
fraction of them that are dyed. I don't think there is one out of
eighty which requires to be dyed for selling south. With regard to
the valuation of the shawls, the fact is, that although sometimes it
happens that we detect a fault in the goods when we are buying
them, and make a deduction for that from the price, yet in the
majority of cases the faults are only detected after the goods are
bought, and no deduction for that can be made from the price
which we pay to the knitters. In all such cases we have to dye
them for nothing.
3414. Do you mean that the fault is detected after the shawls are
bought from you?-Not after they are bought from us, but after we
have bought them; and consequently we have to dye them. Then
when they are dyed, they very often, indeed generally, do not bring
more than they would have brought if they had been white; but
that is such a trifling thing, that it is not worth speaking about.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANN EUNSON, examined.
3415. You live in Lerwick?-Yes.
3416. You have come forward voluntarily to make a statement?-
Yes.
3417. Nobody has sent you here?-No.
3418. Have you knitted for a long time to Mr. Linklater?-Yes, for
a long time; I don't remember how long.
3419. What have you made?-Little hap-shawls.
3420. How have you been paid for them?-I have been well paid
for them, according to what I sought.
3421. Did you get money or goods?-When I sought money I got
it; but when I required anything which he had, I thought it was my
duty to take it from him, and not from another. He always gave
me a little money when I asked it.
3422. How much would you get at a time?-I might not ask above
6d. at a time, but I would get it.
3423. How much would you make in a week by knitting?-It was
just as I had time to sit at it.
3424. Did you do a good deal at it?-Not a great deal I made a
good many haps for myself when I could. I am a widow. I had
seven children, who are all dead, and I have supported myself
entirely by my work.
3425. Have you supported yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes. I
had no other work, except that of going for peats, or anything else
I had to do.
3426. Were these your own peats?-Yes.
3427. Therefore you had no other means except by knitting?-No;
except that for some time back I have had 1s. a week from the
parochial board.
3428. Before you got that, did you support yourself entirely by
knitting?-Yes; only at times I have got some things from friends.
3429. Did you get your meal and provisions from the proceeds of
your knitting?-Yes.
3430. How did you manage that, when you were paid mostly in
goods?-Often, when I had a little time, I made small shawls for
myself; and when travelling merchants came to town, they would
take my shawls and sell them for me for a little money.
3431. Did you do that because it was not the custom to give money
for such things at the merchants' shops?-It was not the usual
thing always to give money at the merchants shops. If they had
given it, I might not have given my shawls to these travelling
merchants,
3432. If you had got money from the merchants shops, you would
have been as ready to sell your shawls to them as to these
strangers?-Yes; but I sold some haps to Mr. Linklater, and got
much the same from him as I got from them.
3433., Only you got it in goods?-Yes; but if had sought a little
money, I would have got it.
3434. What was the price of the hap-shawls which you made?-I
have got as high as 3s. and 4s. for them. I don't make the fine
knitting.
3435. Do you ever make hose or stockings?-Yes.
3436. What do you get for them?-I don't make many stockings; I
think I am better paid by making these little haps.
3437. Do you take any lodgers?-I don't take any now. I am in
the Widows' Asylum; but before I went there, I took one or two.
3438. Did these lodgers help you in your living?-Yes, a little.
3439. Then you would get money in that way with which to
purchase provisions?-Yes; but I could not get so much knitting
made when I had lodgers.
3440. But the money you got from them would help you to buy
meal and bread, and what you wanted to live upon?-No; I did not
have above 6d. a week from my lodgers, and sometimes it was 1s.;
but I got through with it, and now it is come to a conclusion.
3441. How old are you?-I think I am about seventy-two.
3442. You are still knitting a little?-Yes; my fingers are as clever
as can be yet.
3448. You don't get money for your knitting now?-I get money
from Mr. Linklater when I ask it.
3444. How often do you ask it?-I don't like to trouble him too
much, but I know that he would give me what I sought; and many
a time I have got it. He often supplied me when I required it, and
when I had nothing in his hands to get.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, JOHN JAMES BRUCE, recalled.
3445. I understand you wish to make some correction on your
former evidence?-Yes; I find I made a mistake. On going back
to the shop after giving my evidence, I found the same girl there
whom I mentioned before, and I spoke to her about what I had said
here. She said it was not a line that she had exchanged. She has
an account in the book, and she had got a bonnet, and had given it
to the other party. Of course it was to the same effect as if she had
given a line. She had got goods from us, and had given them to
another person for cash.
3446. Was all the rest of your statement correct?-Yes.
3447. Have you anything to say with regard to the proportion of
goods which are re-dyed about which Mr. Sinclair made some
explanation?-What I meant to say was, that all the goods not
ticketed are re-valued, and that some of them are dyed,-these, of
course, not being re-valued until they come back from the dyer.
Only the finer qualities of goods are ticketed at the time they are
taken from the customer.
[Page 78]
3448. So that the larger proportion of goods are, in point of fact,
re-valued?-Yes. By being re-valued, I mean that they are judged
of again in the same way that they were judged of, on being taken
from the customer. I don't mean to say that a different price is put
upon the article; it may be the same price.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3449. Is there anything you wish to add?-I may make one remark
about that last point,-the valuation of the goods. Many years ago
I had a partner, from which the firm took its name of Sinclair &
Co. At that time we ticketed all the shawls that we bought, with
the exception of the lower-priced ones. We found it a little
inconvenient to be always doing that, and my partner and I, in
order to test our own judgment with regard to these articles,
entered the goods in a book at the ticketed value when we bought
them. When we put them out to the dressing, of course the tickets
were taken off; but when they came back, we re-valued them
according to our own judgment, without any reference to the
entries we had made in the book; and I can declare on my oath that
we never varied one per cent. on the things-we knew their value
so well. When I came to see that I could judge of the values so
well, I did not ticket the lower qualities of goods-only those of
the value of which there could be any doubt.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, MARGARET CLUNAS, examined.
3450. You are a native of Unst, and you have lived there until
lately?-Yes.
3451. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
3452. For whom did you knit in Unst?-For Mr. Thomas
Jamieson.
3453. Is he a merchant and purchaser of hosiery?-Yes.
3454. Did you knit with wool supplied by him?-Yes; generally.
3455. You sometimes knitted with worsted of your own?-Yes.
3456. How were you paid for what you knitted with his
worsted?-The veils were 1s. when made with Scotch worsted,
and 10d. when made with Shetland worsted, and for shawls of
twenty-four scores we were paid 9s. for knitting.
3457. What do you mean by twenty-four scores?-That was the
size of the shawl.
3458. Did he pay you in money when you knitted for him in that
way?-No.
3459. Did you ever get any money from him?-No, I never got it,
because it was a thing he never gave, and we never asked for it.
3460. Were you content to take the value in goods?-Sometimes,
and sometimes not.
3461. When were you not content to do that?-When I could not
fall in with the things I was wanting.
3462. Was that often?-Not very often; but sometimes he was out
of things I wanted.
3463. When you wanted anything which you could not fall in with
in his shop, what did you do?-Sometimes he sent for it to us, and
sometimes not; and we had then to take just what things were
there.
3464. Did you live with your father?-Yes.
3465. He kept you in food, so that you did not require to buy any
food for yourself?-Only sometimes in the summer time chiefly.
3466. Did you work out in the summer time?-Yes, for day's
wages.
3467. Then you did not require to knit for your living, but only for
your clothing?-Only for our clothing; but of course we could not
have got food for our knitting from that man, even if we had
required it. He would not have given it.
3468. How much would you make in the week in Unst by
knitting?-Perhaps 3s. or 4s., according to what we did.
3469. That was his value in goods?-Yes.
3470. Were you paid in the same way when you knitted with your
own worsted?-Yes, we were generally paid in the same way.
3471. What kind of goods did you get from Mr Jamieson?-
Cotton and winceys.
3472. Did you get tea?-He would sometimes refuse to give above
a quarter pound of tea on a 9s. shawl he did not like to give much
tea.
3473. Why?-He called it a money article, and he would not give
it.
3474. How long is it since you left Unst?-It is about two or three
months since I left it first, but I have been home again for some
time.
3475. Did you come to Lerwick to knit?-No, I came to be a
servant.
3476. Are you not knitting here now?-Yes, I am knitting at
present.
3477. Are you out of a place?-Yes.
3478. Do you deal in the same way here as you did in Unst, or is
there any difference?-There is a woman in Lerwick that I knit to,
and she gets money for our goods, and is thus able to pay us in
money.
3479. Who is that?-Miss Hutchison, Burn's Lane.
3480. Does she always pay you in money?-Yes; or if she has any
little thing, which she has got, we can get it.
3481. Are there other merchants in Unst besides Mr. Jamieson
who buy hosiery?-Yes.
3482. Who are they?-Mr. Alexander Sandison, at Uyea Sound.
3483. Where is Mr. Jamieson's place?-At Westing.
3484. How did you happen to have wool of your own to knit
with?-We generally bought it from people who had wool.
3485. You got it from the neighbours?-Yes.
3486. What did you pay for fine Shetland worsted?-We bought
the wool, and we spun it for ourselves.
3487. Did you ever sell the worsted that you spun?-Yes.
3488. What did you get for it?-3d. a cut.
3489. Was that from Mr. Jamieson?-Yes; or from Mr. Sandison,
or any of them.
3490. Was that paid to you in money?-No.
3491. Was it always paid in goods?-Yes, but we would have got
more money articles for the worsted than we could get for knitting.
3492. They would have given you tea for worsted?-Yes.
3493. Would they not have given cash for it?-We never asked it;
but I believe if we had asked it, we would have got it for worsted.
3494. Then you did not ask money for your worsted, simply
because you wanted the goods?-Yes
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, Mrs. ANDRINA ANDERSON or
NICHOLSON, examined.
3495. You live in Lerwick?-Yes, at the Docks, but we call it
Lerwick.
3496. Your husband is alive?-Yes.
3497. Do you sometimes knit?-I don't knit so much at present as
I was accustomed to do, on account of my husband being at home;
and I don't require to do it.
3498. Have you heard a good deal of the evidence which has been
given here?-Yes; I came here for that purpose, but not to speak. I
wished to hear the evidence which was given, because I had heard
so much said on both sides of the subject.
3499. In the evidence you have heard, is there much that you differ
from and wish to correct?-As I have [Page 79] had a good deal of
knowledge with regard to the hosiery business and about the
payment in goods, I should like to say what I know about that, and
what I think would be a better plan to take, so far as my experience
goes.
3500. You have heard a description given of the system as it
exists,-how hosiery is paid for in goods or in lines?-I have not
only heard it, but I have had experience of it for a long time. The
first shawl I knitted was in 1840, and since then almost all that I
have done has been in the hosiery line, either knitting or dressing.
3501. Has all your work been paid for by goods in an account?-
Almost the whole of it has been paid in that way, that is, what I
have done in Lerwick; but I have done something for Miss
Hutchison. I have also sent some goods south to Mr. John White,
and been paid for them in money.
3502. But all that you have done for the merchants in Lerwick has
been paid for to you in goods?-I think the whole of it.
3503. You are speaking now of all the shops in Lerwick?-I don't
have any particular statement to make about one more than
another, because I have dealt with three or four different shops.
3504. Are you speaking now of articles which you have knitted
with your own wool, or with the wool which was given out to you
by merchants?-I chiefly knitted an article and sold it; but I was in
the way of dressing for a good many years, and, I saw then how the
people complained about getting goods for their work. Their
complaints on that subject were very frequent, and in some cases I
thought they had great reason to complain.
3505. Why was that?-Because the goods were charged so much
more in some cases than what they could have been got for in
ready money. I may tell you what first opened my mind to that
point. I required a good deal of money at one time. I could not get
it in the way we were then doing, and I then adopted the plan of
trying to dress for some of the hosiers, and getting money for it.
3506. How long ago was that?-I think it will be about sixteen
years ago. Fourteen years past in July I went south and sold a
Shetland shawl to Mr. Mackenzie, a Shetland warehouseman, in
Princes Street, Edinburgh. He asked me what I wanted for the
shawl, and I said 10s. He said he would give me 8s. I told him I
could get 10s. in Lerwick for it, from the merchants there; and he
said, 'But when I give you 8s., that is just as good to you as 10s.
from them.' I had felt the truth of that, but I had never seen it
properly before.
3507. Did he explain to you how 8s. in cash from him was equal to
10s. from the merchants in Lerwick?-He told me the profit was
laid on the goods; and at that time, and before that time, I will
declare it was.
3508. You mean that the goods were dearer in Lerwick than you
could have bought them in the south?-Not only in the south, but
dearer than we could have bought them in another shop in the
town. We could have bought them cheaper in shops in Lerwick
when we were not dealing in the hosiery business.
3509. Are there drapery shops now in Lerwick that do not deal in
hosiery?-Yes.
3510. And is it the case that you can purchase the same goods at
those shops at a lower price than you can at shops where the
hosiery business is carried on?-Yes; I know that from experience,
because I have the money in my hand, and I can go and purchase
them cheaper elsewhere than I can do at some of these shops. I
don't say at them all, but I know there are some of the drapery
shops in Lerwick where they could be got cheaper. I will give a
case of that. Last summer I had to buy a woollen shirt, and I went
into a shop, and saw a piece that I thought would do. The
merchant brought it down and said it was 1s. 8d. a yard. Another
merchant had charged me 1s. 6d. for something of the same kind,
and I told this merchant that the thing was too dear. He said, ' I
will give it to you for 1s. 6d. a yard;' and I said, 'Well, I will give
you 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards of it;' and he gave it me. A day or two
afterwards a woman came into my house and saw the goods, and
said, 'That is the same as I have bought; what did you pay for
that?'-I said I had paid money, because it is an understanding
that some shops can give it for less with money than with hosiery.
I told her I paid 4s. 6d. for 31/4 yards; and she then told me that she
had paid 2s. of hosiery for a yard of it-6s. for 3, or, 6s. 6d. for 31/4
yards-just the quantity required.
3511. Have you any objection to give me the name of the woman
and the names of the shops?-I could give the names, but I would
prefer to do so privately. The stuff I bought is still in existence,
and also what she bought, and they could be compared, to show
that they are of the same quality. I did not do that with any
intention of finding out the difference in prices; it just occurred
accidentally, and I only give it as an instance, to prove that if we
could get money for our hosiery goods it would be far better for us.
I know that many a poor creature in Lerwick, if she could get
money for her articles, even although she were to get less of it,
could make more of it than she does now, by getting the money in
her own hand, to be applied for any purpose she thought proper. I
heard you ask one of the witnesses whether people would give
them articles for less in money than in goods, and that was what
made me think over it.
3512. Do you think they would be willing to do so?-I think so. I
remember one time when Mr. Mackenzie-the same gentleman I
have already mentioned-came down to Lerwick and stayed here
for some time, and he gave money for the articles that were
brought to him, but scarcely so much as his own customers in
Lerwick will give you in goods; and that was the way he came to
know that if he gave me 8s., he would pay me as well as some of
those who paid me with 10s.
3513. Did you sell anything to him at that time?-I sold to him at
the time I was south. I did not sell to him at Lerwick. I could not
get in to see him there, because there were so many people who
came with their work for the sake of getting money for it, although
it was a less sum that he gave than the merchants here.
3514. How long ago was that?-It was when Mr. Harrison was
dealing in the business. I think it will be about twenty-five years
ago.
3515. Then the custom at that time was to deal in goods, as it is
now?-Yes; and indeed the goods are rather a better price now
than they were then. We could get scarcely any money articles at
that time at all. I think that the articles are more reasonably priced
now than they were at that time. I have seen us go into a shop
then, and they would ask us what sort of goods we wanted for our
knitting; and if they saw we wanted money article they would
perhaps not take the goods at all.
3516. You say that you know many girls who would be much
better off by being paid in money?-Yes, if what they tell me is
true. They say that there are many purposes to which they would
require to put money if they had it, but they cannot get it without
doing something for it in some other way, as has been already
explained. I have heard you put a question to some of them about
their being compelled to sell their lines. I don't know any case of
that kind, but I know that they have done that, or equivalent to it,
by taking a piece of cotton out of the shops and selling it in order
to serve the purpose they required the money for.
3517. I suppose some of them manage to live by taking in lodgers
occasionally?-That is done only on very small scale in Lerwick.
3518. Do not people in the country sometimes come in and stay
with them for a night or two?-Yes but it could scarcely be called
a lodging-house as that is understood in the south.
3519. But people do come from the country for a night or two, and
perhaps bring their own provisions with them?-There is very
little of that can be done in Lerwick at present, because there have
been so [Page 80] many people warned out of their farms in the
country.
3520. Have you known many cases, within your own knowledge,
of girls being in straits in consequence of that system of
dealing?-Yes, I have had to supply them many a time with things.
I bought some little things from a girl within the last week or two
at a reduced price, which she took from me because I could give
her the money. I did not require the article. I only bought it from
her as a charity, and I would not have mentioned it unless you had
asked me.
3521. Have you ever known of girls falling into evil courses in
consequence of the want of money?-Perhaps if they had the
inclination, they would have fallen into them any way. I think, on
the whole, that if they had money, they would be able to save a
good deal out of the expense for dress which they sometimes wear.
They would then have their money, to do what they chose with it.
Perhaps they might apply some of it for a religious purpose, or put
it into a missionary box; or if they did not think of doing that, they
might have an opportunity to put it into the savings bank, which
Lerwick knitters have never yet had the pleasure doing.
3522. Is there no savings bank here?-There is a post-office
savings bank; but I don't think there are many of the knitters who
can get the blessing of putting cash into it for a rainy day, either to
pay the doctor or anything else.
3523. You seem to think that the effect of the system is to lead
them to spend more of their earnings on dress than they would
otherwise do?-When I was young myself and unmarried, and
when I was getting dresses instead of getting money articles for my
work, I would not have thought much of putting a very expensive
dress on; but when I got money I did not like to spend so much
upon dress, because I prized the money so much more. I only
judge others as I would judge myself; but I know that when I was
paid only in goods for my knitting, I would be more ready to take
an expensive dress than if I were to get money.
3524. I asked you a question just now which you did not answer
quite distinctly: whether you had known of girls who were knitters
falling into evil courses?-I cannot say about that.
3525. Do you think girls are led to fall into a bad way of living
from the system which prevails here, and from being led by it to
indulge more in dress than they ought to do, or from being in
straits from want of food?-I cannot answer that question. I don't
see why they should do that in consequence of the system; but
what I mean is, that if they could get money for their goods, that
would perhaps prevent them from spending all their earnings in
dress, and expensive articles of that kind, and they would have
something for other purposes which are as necessary, or more so.
3526. You said the prices differed at certain shops in town: would
you give me an instance of that besides what you have mentioned?
Suppose, for instance, that cotton is charged at 6d. a yard, is not
that the common price for cotton that is given for hosiery?-Yes.
3527. Do you know whether that could be got cheaper at any other
shop?-That particular thing does not vary so much just now as it
used to do; but with regard to the dress pieces, and things of that
kind, I know there are some shops that have a higher price marked
on the articles than the other shops have on an article of the same
appearance and, I think, of the same value.
3528. You know that from examining them in the shops?-I know
it by going from shop to shop and purchasing the articles with
money for myself.
3529. What is your husband's business?-He is a cooper.
3530. Have you bought Shetland worsted yourself?-I have.
3531. From merchants or from people?-Generally from country
people.
3532. Do you always pay money for it?-Yes.
3533. Have you bought it from merchants too?-Yes.
3534. Do you always pay them money for it?-I have seen Mr.
Sinclair sometimes supply me with some of it on work, although it
was a money article and I felt obliged to him for it, because I
sometimes could not get it from the country as well as he could.
3535. That was given you to work into things for yourself?-Yes.
3536. But the price was the same, in both cases?-Yes; of the
Shetland worsted.
3537. And when you got it from the shop in that way, it was as a
favour that you got it?-Yes.
3538. What would be the value of the Shetland worsted in a shawl
that was worth 20s.?-I generally deal with Mr. John White in
shawls that are worth more than that. I do not send many to him
now.
3539. Do you get a high price for them from him?-No; I can get
as much for them in Lerwick.
3540. What price do you get for these shawls?-From 28s. to 30s.;
and I can go in with the same shawl to any of the shops in Lerwick
and get the same price, only in goods. I don't say that Mr. White
will give us any more for our shawls than the merchants here will
give us in goods.
3541. Only you think that, if you get 30s. in cash from Mr. White,
you could possibly buy what you want cheaper than you would get
it from the merchants here in exchange for your hosiery?-Yes,
that is what I mean to say.
3542. With regard to a shawl worth 30s., how much would you pay
for the Shetland worsted that it is made of?-Perhaps about 9s. or
9s. 6d., or perhaps 8s. 6d. if I could buy it economically.
3543. About what quantity of worsted would there be in it?-
About thirty-three cuts to that size of shawl.
3544. Would it be worth more than 8d. a cut?-No. Some people
might charge more, but I generally get it for that.
3545. Then thirty-three cuts at 3d. a cut would be 8s. 3d. for the
worsted?-Yes.
3546. How long would it take you to knit such a shawl?-It would
take me a long time just now.
3547. Perhaps it is hardly possible to calculate how long it would
take?-No.
3548. The worsted is the only expense you would have in making
such a shawl?-Yes; I could dress it for myself.
3549. But if you did not, what would be the charge for dressing?-
6d.
3550. So that the payment for your labour on a shawl of that kind
would be about 21s.?-Yes; but of course, if I was getting it
knitted, I might get it done for about 12s. A knitter would make it
for me for that sum if I were giving her the worsted.
3551. Have you ever dealt in that way giving out worsted to
knitters, and getting shawls knitted for yourself?-Only on a very
small scale. I knitted more to others when I was young.
3552. But you have given out some knitting to others?-Yes,
perhaps part of a shawl; so that I calculate the whole cost would be
about that.
3553. Therefore, if you were giving out a shawl to knit, it would
cost you 8s. 9d. for the material and the dressing, and you would
pay 12s. for the knitting-in all, 20s. 9d.; and you could sell it to
Mr. White in cash for 9s. 3d. of profit?-I would not call it all
profit, because sometimes I have a good deal to do before I can get
the worsted wrought as good as I would like to put it into Mr.
White's shawls, and then I have to lie out of my money until I can
get a party to take it in. Besides, if I were putting it out to knitter, I
would have to stand the risk of getting it done properly to my
mind. There might be some faults in the shawl; and if there was
anything of that kind, there must be an allowance made for that. I
am not saying that I ever did that, I am only speaking of how it
could be done.
3554. You are speaking of what you could do, and of what you
know can be done, from your experience in giving out part of your
own work?-Yes.
3555. Do you know anything about the stocking [Page 81]
business-the cheaper and coarser kind of Shetland goods?-No; I
have not much acquaintance with that. I may say, that while I
think in Lerwick it would be far better for the people if they could
get money for their work, yet the country people are not requiring
the money quite so much, as they need the goods at any rate; but
if, as a rule, a money system were once established, and the people
were all to get money for the work, I think those who purchase the
work would find the profit of it as well as those who have to sell it.
3556. Have you ever considered why this system of paying in
goods is kept up?-Yes.
3557. What do you suppose to be the reason for it?-If I had had
it in my power, I would perhaps have done the very same as the
merchants have done, because they have got the good of it.
3558. How have they got the good of it?-Because I think they
must have had a profit on it.
3559. On the hosiery?-Not so much on the hosiery as on the
goods. Reason teaches me that there must be a profit somewhere,
or else it would not have been carried on to such an extent.
3560. I suppose the present system of payment induces the people
who sell hosiery to the merchants, to buy their goods from them
rather than from another?-Certainly it does; because, when I go
in with a shawl to a merchant, I consider that I have to take the
whole value of that shawl out in goods.
3561. It makes the merchants sure of their customers?-Yes.
3562. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I may mention, that
I think the system of paying half in money and half in goods would
not do. One party was asked whether she would be pleased to take
one half in money, and the rest of the payment in goods. That may
be a good enough plan if it were established and carried on
throughout the year; but I remember that at one time one-half the
value of a shawl was given in groceries, and that plan died away.
The merchants kept groceries at that time, for the sake of getting
hosiery with which to supply their orders. The merchants who did
so were Mr. Harrison and Mr. Laurenson. As the season of the
year came round when they did not have orders for their shawls,
then, if they bought shawls, they had to lay them past until the
market opened again; and there were very few groceries given out,
because I understood they had more profit on their drapery goods.
By and by the system of giving groceries died out altogether.
3563. Was that because they had a less profit on them than on the
drapery?-I understood so. I remember Mrs. Harrison, the party
with whom Mr. Mackenzie lodged, telling me that as soon as the
country people began to knit, we, the town's people, would suffer
very much. I could not understand very well what she meant at
that time, but afterwards, when the country people supplied the
merchants with the goods which they required, then they saw that
these people from the country only required drapery, and they
could get their orders supplied from the country. That led the
merchants to pay for the hosiery only in drapery goods, and the
Lerwick people had to comply with the same rule. It was when the
country people came in to do the knitting that the supply of
groceries died away, because the merchants could get their orders
so much cheaper from the country people. They did not require
the groceries like the town's people, because knitting was not the
only thing which they had for their living.
3564. Do you think the ready-money system would be better for
the merchants than the present?-It would be better for those who
have very little profit on the goods they sell, but it would not be so
good for those merchants who take a great deal of profit.
3565. Are there any of the merchants who take very little profit on
their goods?-There are some who have less than others.
3566. And you think they would profit by a cash system?-I think,
on the whole, they would.
3567. They would have no bad debts?-No; and they would not
issue so many lines or have so many clerks; and there are a great
many ways in which I think it would be better for them.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, THOMAS NICHOLSON, examined.
3568. You are a draper and dealer in hosiery in Lerwick?-Yes,
principally a draper. I don't do much in hosiery.
3569. You were formerly in the service of Robert Sinclair &
Co.?-Yes.
3570. You have heard some of the evidence that has been given
here?-Yes, some of it. I think Mrs. Nicholson and Mr. Johnstone
are the only persons whose evidence I have heard throughout.
3571. Do you concur generally with what Mr. Johnstone said about
the system of business here?-Yes. I also heard a good part of Mr.
Laurenson's evidence, and I thought it gave a fair statement of the
matter.
3572. Is there anything you wish to add with regard to the system
of paying in goods?-I have nothing to add to what I believe has
already been stated.
3573. Do you give lines?-Only a very few, when they are asked.
3574. Do you give them to people from whom you buy hosiery, or
to those who knit for you?-Only to those from whom I buy
hosiery. I don't give out any hosiery to knit at all.
3575. Is it understood in your trade, as well as in that of the other
gentlemen who have been examined, that all purchases of hosiery
are to be settled for in goods?-Yes, that is generally understood.
It has always been the habit, and we have never got it altered yet.
3576. Do you think it would be expedient to have a change in that
respect?-I believe it would, if it could only be got to work.
3577. What is the difficulty in the way of having another
system?-We could not give so much in cash for the goods we
buy.
3578. Do you think the people generally would not take cash?-
Yes, I believe they would want goods. So far as I am concerned,
they always take goods from me, and I have never heard them ask
for cash. I deal both with country people and with people from
Lerwick, and none of them ever asked me for it.
3579. Is it long since you left Mr. Sinclair's employment?-About
two and a half years ago.
3580. There has been no important change made in the system of
carrying on business either in your shop or in his during that
time?-No.
3581. Do you do much in the coarser kinds of hosiery?-A little
not a great deal. The stockings are generally done by the country
people, and the finer work by the town's people.
3582. You buy the stockings from the country people?-Yes, I just
exchange the one article for the other.
3583. You fix a nominal price at which you are to buy the
stockings?-Yes; the price. I expect to get for them, as near as I
can fix it.
3584. You don't expect to make a profit on them?-No; I would
often be very thankful to get what I have paid for them.
3585. Then your profit is on the goods which you give in
exchange?-Yes.
3586. Do you think you take a higher profit on your goods in
consequence of accepting payment for them in hosiery rather than
in cash?-No; the goods are all marked in plain figures. When I
get cash I generally give off 21/2 or 33/4 cent.
3587. But don't you take a higher profit from all your customers
because so much of your goods are paid for in hosiery?-No; if I
did so, I would run the risk of losing my business; and in fact I
would rather give up the hosiery altogether, because I don't think
it [Page 82] pays very well, so much of it gets damaged, and the
moths get into it.
3588. How long were you in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-For thirteen
years.
3589. Were you acquainted both with the prices paid for hosiery
goods and the prices obtained for them in the south?-Yes.
3590. Was more asked for them from the merchants in the south
than was paid for them to the knitters in Lerwick?-No; we were
always very thankful to get what we had given in goods for them.
3591. But if a cash price was paid for an article, was a higher price
put upon it when it was sold south?-Yes; if we paid cash, we
required a little more than we had paid. We could not have carried
on the business without having a little profit on it.
3592. You do not give out any knitting at all?-Scarcely any. I
think I have only two girls knitting for me at present.
3593. Do they get any part of their payment in cash?-Yes,
whenever they ask it.
3594. But is it not the understanding that they shall be paid in
goods?-Yes; it is generally understood that they shall get
anything they want.
3595. How much are they in use to ask for in cash?-Probably a
shilling now and then.
3596. Do they live by their knitting, or have they other means of
support?-There is one party that does something for me who
lives exclusively, or almost exclusively, by knitting; but almost all
the girls have something else to do besides that.
3597. What is the name of the girl who lives almost exclusively by
knitting?-I think one of them is Catherine Borthwick.
3598. Tea is one of the most common articles you give in
exchange for the knitting?-Yes.
3599. Have you ever known of the goods you gave being
exchanged for necessaries after you gave them?-No.
3600. Or of your lines being exchanged for necessaries or for
cash?-I never knew of a case where that was done.
3601. Have you heard of such a thing being done?-I have heard
of it; but I never knew of any of my lines, or any of the goods
bought, from me, being exchanged.
3602. Are your lines generally brought back by the same parties to
whom they were given out?-I think so; but I am not quite sure,
because we just put on them 'Credit the bearer' so much.
3603. Have you a register of your lines?-Yes; I enter the number
of the lines in a book.
3604. Was that a system which you adopted from Mr. Sinclair?-It
was partly a system of my own. When I commenced on my own
account, I adopted the system of keeping a check, the same as a
bank chequebook.
3605. How many of these lines do you suppose you issue?-I don't
do a great deal in that way. It is only for the accommodation of
the parties that I give any at all. I would be quite prepared to settle
with them at once if they liked.
3606. I suppose these lines are generally given for the balance
upon a shawl, or anything that you buy?-Yes, for any little thing
they are selling.
3607. Part of the price is taken in goods, and they take the balance
in a line if they don't want the whole of it?-Yes; or perhaps a line
may be taken for the whole of it, and they come and get tea and
other articles as they want them.
3608. Is it generally long before they come back with these
lines?-Some of them may be returned perhaps in a few days, and
some of them in a few months. A country girl may keep a line
beside her for perhaps a month or twelve months. I have known
them keep them for three years, when I was in Mr. Sinclair's
employment.
3609. Then the system of lines existed when you were with Mr.
Sinclair?-Yes.
3610. But he had not a register of them at that time?-Not for all
the lines: he had a check for them, but they were not all registered
then.
3611. Are you aware of the fact that the knitters in Shetland are
anxious to sell their goods to others than merchants, in order to get
ready money for them?-I believe some of them are; but I never
met with many who were anxious to sell their goods for cash.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled.
3612. Do you wish to add anything to your previous evidence?-I
wish merely to say, that I have known cases where people have
gone out with hosiery and sold it for money, and then come into
our shop and bought what goods they required.
3613. Was that hosiery which had been offered to you before and
was refused?-Yes.
3614. You had refused to buy it at the price they wanted?-Yes; at
any price. I remember one case of that kind with regard to some
half-stockings.
3615. When you refused to take them, the woman went and sold
them elsewhere, and then came back to you with the money?-
Yes.
3616. Was that long ago?-Yes, a good while ago. Of course
there may have been other cases of that kind which I don't know
about, but in that particular case the woman told me she had done
it, I don't remember her name.
Lerwick, January 6, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
3617. Do you wish to add anything?-I should like to state
something which struck me just now about a case where I saw
lines given for money. It occurred in my own shop, and I believe
it occurs oftener than we think; but there was one time when I
detected it. A customer came into my shop and made some
purchases, and at the same time another customer came in who I
knew had got lines from the shop. The first person who was
making the purchase was carrying through a cash transaction with
me, and I expected to have been paid in money for it; but the other
customer who had the lines took the other person aside and handed
over the lines to her, and I was paid with them. I did not object to
take the lines for their value, because the goods were charged at a
fixed value for cash or line, but it certainly deprived me of the
cash at that time.
3618. And it deprived you also of the profit which you would have
had upon the goods that ought to have been given for the line?-
Yes. I merely mention that as an instance in which cash was given
for lines.
<Adjourned>.
[Page 83]
Lerwick: Monday, January 8, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
WILLIAM IRVINE, examined
3619. You are a partner of the firm of Hay & Co., merchants in
Lerwick?-I am.
3620. You have been so for many years?-Yes.
3621. I presume you take a principal part in the management of the
affairs of that firm?-I do.
3622. In consequence of hearing that this inquiry had been
appointed to take place, you have prepared a written statement
with regard to the system pursued in the fish-curing business in
Shetland, which you now hand in?-Yes.
3623. It is a correct statement?-It is quite correct, to the best of
my knowledge.
[The following statement was put in by the witness:-]
I have had many years' experience of Shetland business generally,
and especially of the fish-curing trade. Most of the time I have
been connected with my present partners, and we have curing
stations and establishments at several parts of the islands. We also
manage four estates in the country-two as factors for the
proprietors, and two as lessees. For the first we only account for
the rents collected, but for the other two we pay fixed tack-duties.
The tenants on one of the estates for which we act as factors
are altogether free to fish where they choose, and to dispose of
their farm produce as they think proper, and their rents are
received in cash every year at Martinmas. The tenants on the
other, which I believe is next the largest in Shetland, are also free
(with the exception of the island of Whalsay, and Whalsay
Skerries); and we seldom see them unless when they come to town
to pay their rents. Some fish to one curer, and some to another, as
they find convenient; and they are quite at liberty to dispose of all
their produce, such as cattle, ponies, hosiery, and the like, where
they can obtain the best prices. We are not liable to the proprietor
for bad debts on this estate either, but the rents are generally well
paid, and very few of the tenants are in arrears.
In Whalsay there is only one curing station, and we pay the
proprietor a yearly rent for the stores, booths, kelp-shores, and
other privileges; and receive fish, oil, and kelp from the tenants,
for which we settle at the current prices of the country. We have a
factor there, with assistants, who manages for us, and supplies
fishing materials and other necessaries to the men and their
families during the year; and I usually go there myself soon after
Martinmas, to square up accounts, pay the balance due the
fishermen, and collect rents from the tenants. We also pay large
sums of money at all our other country stations. In 1870, when
north settling, I paid the men at Whalsay, after deducting their
advances, £1222; and I find from a state prepared by the factor,
that of fish, oil, and herrings received there that year, amounting to
£2529, 15s. 1d., we paid the men £1584, 12s. 9d. in cash. We
have not yet made up a similar account for 1871; but when settling
there lately, after retaining their advances, I paid them no less than
£1374. There are very few debts in the books there, and the
people are considered to be in good circumstances.
Of this estate I can speak with confidence, as the management
is more immediately in my department. There are 430 tenants on
the lands-nearly all fishermen and sailors. When we strike out of
the arrear list those tenants who have not had the opportunity of
paying their rents for last year,-two who are old and infirm, and
another who retains his balance for alleged improvements,-the
amount due for the three years it has been in our hands is only £57,
13s. 1d. None of the tenants have been warned or sold out.
Shetland fishermen have been represented as ignorant and
uneducated. This is a great mistake. They are as intelligent,
shrewd, and capable of attending to their own interest as any
similar class of men in Scotland. Many of them have sailed in all
quarters of the world. Newspapers are now circulated all over the
islands; and the Aberdeen, Leith, and Clyde Shipping Companies'
powerful steamers bring mails with great regularity twice a week
in summer, and once a week in winter; and in consequence of the
frequent communication, all sorts of farm produce have largely
increased in price. I have seen eggs selling in the islands at 11/2d.
for sixteen,-now the price is 10d. per dozen; butter 6d., now
1s. and 1s. 2d. per pound; fat cattle £3 each, now £6 to £7; ponies
40s., now £6 to £10.
In our dealings with fishermen, they are charged the same prices
for goods that we sell at for ready money to the public. We
employ a number of carpenters and other tradesmen here, all of
whom receive their wages in cash every Saturday night.
The Burra Islands are one of the properties which we hold in tack.
We have two curing stations in the islands for convenience of the
fishermen, and factors on the spot to receive the fish as they
are landed from the boats. The fishings are prosecuted on the
coasts in small boats in spring and summer, but the best of the men
are employed out of the islands, and the fishings are now very
unimportant. These men who fish out of the islands are employed
in smacks belonging to Hay & Co., and various other owners, and
prosecute the fishing on the coasts of Faroe and elsewhere, from
the end of March to the middle of August. Those who fish to us
get the same as those who are employed by others. The tenants of
these islands sell their cattle, ponies, hosiery, eggs, and all other
produce (except the few fish caught on the coast), as they like,
without let or hindrance. We have no shop in the islands, and the
men employed by us get their supplies from our stores here and at
Scalloway. Some years ago, after a time of bad crops and bad
fishings, when we had to give them large quantities of meal for
their support, and many of them were unable to pay rents, the
islands were indebted the best part of £1000. We made an attempt
at that time to get the young men to fish to us and assist their
parents, and I think in two cases we imposed fines of 20s.; but it
had a contrary effect to what we intended, and, so far as I
remember, the money was given back. I do not mention that the
men are confined to our stores. They can deal with any other curer
or shopkeeper they choose, and all our fishermen over islands can
do the same, and at settlement receive their season's earnings
wholly in cash. I believe this is the general practice; and were it
otherwise, there is the small-debt court, the sheriff court, and
several lawyers here to help them to their rights.
On the other estate referred to of which we are lessees, the
tenants who remain at home are nearly all employed in the ling
fishing. Some go south sailing, and pay their rents in cash, and we
never exercise any control over them; but as we pay the current
price to the tenants who remain at home, we insist on getting their
fish as a security for their rents, otherwise the improvident might
squander their earnings, and in some bad years be unable to pay.
We never interfere with any of the tenants' produce except fish, on
this estate more than the others. They are left to dispose of it
where they like.
We have other curing stations at different parts of the islands,
and employ a number of men and boys [Page 84] from all quarters
during the summer months, but after they settle, we have no
transactions with them till another year comes round, when they
return to our employment if they think they have been well served.
As already mentioned, we are engaged in the deep-sea cod fishing,
and, like others, send vessels to fish at Faroe, Rockall, and Iceland.
The crews are engaged on shares, and the fish are salted on board,
and afterwards landed at the curing stations in a wet state. When
ready for market, they are sold at the best price that can be
obtained, and, after deducting expenses and other charges
according to agreement, the proceeds are divided equally-
one-half to the owners, and the other to the crew. Fishings of all
kinds succeed best when the men are paid by shares. When they
are secured on monthly wages, there is no inducement for
exertion. The fishing season being short, the utmost activity is
necessary; and when the weather is favourable, the men are often
obliged to work day and night.
Shetland fishermen are not altogether dependent for their
livelihood on the produce of the fishings. In most cases they have
farms that can keep their families six to eight months, and with
good crops many of them have no occasion to buy meal the year
round. They cannot afford to use fresh beef, but, as a rule, most
families can kill a pig; and on the whole, in ordinary seasons, I
believe they have a much greater abundance of the necessaries of
life than a great many people of their class in the kingdom. They
are, without doubt, more independent and less under control than
mechanics and others (who are obliged to work under a master a
stated number of hours every day), and consequently are more
happy and contented. We have no international societies in
Shetland. Some of the dwelling-houses are not what they should
be, but a great improvement has taken place in this respect since
the timber-duty was repealed; and, for my own part, I would ten
times rather live a year in a Shetland cottage, surrounded by pure
air, than week in one of the slums of London or Glasgow.
Preparations for the ling fishing commence early in spring.
The men form themselves into crews, and appoint the most
experienced man as skipper. If they have no boat of their own,
one must be hired, or a new one built; but the lines in most cases
belong to themselves, and they always find curers ready to supply
them with what they want, on condition that they receive their fish.
No curer would be safe to make these advances, without the
men engaging to deliver their fish-a new boat alone costing
about £20 without lines, The price of the summer fish is seldom
fixed until the end of the season, when the fish are sold for the
south-country markets.
Fishermen are quite safe with this arrangement. They know the
competition between curers all over the islands is so keen, that
they are secure to get the highest possible price that the markets
can afford. Any curer that can offer a little advantage to the
fishermen over the others is certain to get more boats the following
year; and this is carried so far, that men with limited capital, in
their endeavours to obtain a large share of the trade by giving
credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave nothing to
themselves, and in the end come to grief. I have known crews to
be engaged at fixed prices before the commencement of the
fishing but as markets improved towards the end of the season, we
were obliged to throw the agreement aside and pay the same as
others, in order not to lose the men's services the following year.
When the fishing season is over and the fish prepared for market,
south-country dealers contract for it at prices free on board; and
with them again there is competition, so that curers seldom fail to
get the full value of the article.
People in the south, who have to pay perhaps 4s. to 7s. 6d. for
a fresh cod or ling, are surprised to hear that the poor Shetland
fishermen only get 6d. to 9d.; and we have had a great deal of
clever writing on this subject lately, without much common sense.
The shipping price of ling in the past season has been £23,-rather
higher than usual,-and fishermen have been paid 8s. per cwt.
wet, or about 9d. per fish. Although it has been rather a good year
for curers, the following statement will show that fortunes are not
rapidly accumulated in the trade:-
21/4 cwt. wet fish, cured ready for market,
weigh only 1 cwt.-21/4 cwt. @ 8s. £0 18 0
Add cost of salt, hire of vats, tubs, tarpaulins,
and other curing materials;
also wages to men and boys splitting,
washing, and drying; and expense of
flitting from beaches-weighing and
storing usually reckoned. . . 0 3 0
£1 1 0
21s. per cwt., or £21 per ton, leaving 40s. to the curer, out of
which he has to pay store rent, weighing, shipping, skippers' fees,
gratuities to fishermen, and to meet loss by small and damaged
fish, and of interest-the sales being made at three months in
October, and the men settled with in November; and further, when
the risk of sales is also taken into account, the sum left to
remunerate the curer for his season's work is not very large.
One great drawback on a Shetland business is fishermen's bad
debts, and our chief study is to limit the supplies when we know
the men to be improvident; but it is quite impossible to keep men
clear when the fishing proves unsuccessful. There is no difficulty,
however, when dealing with careful men.
At various stations round the islands near the fishing grounds,
where there are natural beaches, the men have small huts to live in
during the fishing season, and the crews assemble there about
the middle of May to commence operations. The merchants or
fish-curers have the necessary curing materials on the spot, and
factors, splitters, and beach boys attending to receive and cure the
fish; and, while the fishing is carried on, the men go to their
respective homes every Saturday, taking with them small and
unmerchantable fish for the use of their families-returning to the
stations, with provisions for the week, every Monday. They
generally make two or three trips during the week, according to the
state of the weather, and weigh and deliver over the catch when
they land. Their families get supplies from the factor's shop as
required; but the men have opportunities weekly of seeing their
accounts and can limit these supplies if they choose.
The Whalsay fishermen deliver their fish in summer, and live
at small holms to seaward of the main island near the fishing
ground, and a large boat is employed to remove their fish to the
beach at Simbister to be dried. The men are thus enabled to
make more voyages to the haaf than by landing each time at the
curing-beach.
As settling time approaches, our managers in the country
prepare by sending for the men, and reading over to them
individually their private accounts, comparing and making up
pass-books, where any are kept, and giving copies of the accounts
when desired; and when we come to settle, each man knows
exactly the amount of his season's expenditure.
If a ready-money system were adopted, and payments made in
cash for each landing, I believe it would scarcely be practicable
to carry it out. Large sums of money would require to be kept at
these stations,-men with some knowledge of figures and
accounts to be always present,-and half the fishermen's time
would be taken up with the settlements. The money would then
be carried home to their families, and in many cases at the end of
the season there would be little left to pay rent and provide
necessaries for the winter months, when there are no fishings,
and no work except at their own farms. Such a mode of dealing
would otherwise injure the men, as curers with small means
would be driven out of the trade, and in some measure competition
prevented.
From twenty-five to thirty years ago I had several opportunities
of seeing how the fishings were conducted Barra and South Uist.
At that time the fishermen were all living in wretched hovels along
the sea-coast, and the islands let for grazing cattle and in sheep
farms. Very few of them were able to keep a cow, and they knew
nothing of the luxuries of life, and could scarcely command a bare
existence. Their chief living in winter [Page 85] and spring was
potatoes not fit for pigs, and shell-fish, with any small fish they
could catch in the bays. There were plenty of fish on the coast, but
no middle-men with capital to encourage the men to work. In
summer they prosecuted the fishing a little distance outside of the
islands, where their buoys could be seen from the shore. Their
boats were clumsy and unmanageable-some with sails and some
without; and the lines were made by themselves out of hemp
obtained on credit, and only lasted one year. They were set on the
fishing ground at the commencement of the season, and seldom
taken up to dry. Now, however, I understand large capital is
embarked in the fishing trade in that quarter, and of late years it
has been very prosperous, and the circumstances of the natives
greatly improved.
In 1785 a Commissioner was sent by Government to inquire into
the state of the fisheries in the Hebrides, and in his report to a
committee of the House of Commons, on being asked 'whether he
thought it would be benefit to the lower classes of people if any of
the tacksmen or others were debarred by law from entering into a
contract with these people for obtaining the pre-emption of their
fish, etc., as specified in his report,' he answered, 'That, so far
from thinking it would be a benefit to the people, he should think
it would prove a material injury to them; for they have no other
possible way of being supplied with the necessaries they want
from distant markets but by the intervention of those persons who
keep stores in the manner described in the report; neither have
they in general any means of finding money to purchase boats and
other necessary apparatus for fishing; and that, unless they were
furnished by these storekeepers upon credit, very few of them
could engage in the fisheries at all; and, in the present situation of
that country, as they have no other possible way of paying the
debts they thus contract but by the fish they catch, no person
would furnish these upon credit unless they had the pre-emption of
them: that it has been already stated in the report, that this kind of
trade, though apparently very oppressive to the poor in all cases,
affords but very little profit to the merchants; and that he knew
several instances where the people who keep these stores, by
acting in a disinterested manner, have contributed very essentially
to promote the welfare of the country.'
Since that date the Shetland fisheries also have been largely
extended by the introduction of capital and the opening of stores
among the different islands, where the men can always obtain
fishing materials and supplies for their families; but to the present
day the answer still holds good: curers must have the pre-emption
of the fish, as a security for payment.
In the evidence before the Truck Commission in Edinburgh lately,
witnesses were examined who had little knowledge of Shetland
business, and many of the statements were not only contrary to
fact, but simply absurd. For instance, can any man of common
sense imagine that a merchant would come to grief in consequence
of not having enough of bad debts, and that if he could carry on
until he had £2000 of bad debts, he would do a flourishing trade,
'because they keep it going in a circle, and it never gets worse?'
That was one of the extraordinary statements made to the
Commission. Is it not clear that if a dealer with small means
emptied his shop of goods to people who could not pay for
them, then, as soon as the bills he had granted for these goods fell
due, he might shut it up?
As already mentioned, the Shetland fishing trade has been
largely developed by increased capital of late years, but in all
time past it has been conducted on the same principles, with few
modifications, as at present, and will be so, I think, in all time
coming. If the islands and their fishing banks could be removed to
near London, where the fish might be sold fresh at high prices, the
fishermen would be greatly benefited; but as this is impossible, we
must all submit to the inevitable. It is true, Government may
attempt to change the trade by Act of Parliament; but in that case
they will either have to remove the entire fishing population to
some other and better country, or keep them at home as paupers,
by annual grants for food and clothing.
We are not engaged in the hosiery trade; but I know it to be the
most troublesome business in the islands, being conducted chiefly
by barter. I think it could not be carried on very well to any extent
otherwise. We would be quite ready to embark in it and buy for
cash, if we could make a commission; but I do not believe it would
pay the expenses and servants' wages. Giving goods in exchange,
hosiers can afford to allow a much higher price for the articles
than we could for cash, and therefore very little of the trade would
come our way if we took it up.
Besides the fishing trade, we have acted a long time as agents
for ships engaged in the Greenland and Davis' Straits whale and
seal fishing. These vessels call here to complete their crews in
February and March; and when they return, the men are either
landed at Lerwick, or some other point of the islands as they pass
south. When they go out, the men are engaged at the shipping
office, and receive a month's wages in advance, in presence of the
shipping master, and the agents are reimbursed when they send the
accounts to the owners. When the ships return and the men are
landed, they disperse without a moment's delay (in most cases) to
their several homes, and come back to Lerwick to settle for their
wages and first payment of oil-money, individually, as it suits their
own convenience; and in the same way, a second time, to receive
the balance of their oil-money and sign the ship's release. This
may be better understood from the following correspondence that
took place the past year between Hay & Co. and one of the
Peterhead shipowners, in respect to a notice said to be issued by
the Board of Trade, headed 'Truck System in Lerwick:'-
'PETERHEAD, 16<th March> 1871.
'R. KIDD <to> HAY & CO.
'I enclose you letter I have received from H.M. Customs as
regards the engaging and paying of the men engaged in the
Greenland fishing ships. You will know how to act in regard to
this. You have likely received direct orders, and I only enclose it
to keep you in mind of it.'
The document to which Mr. Kidd's letter refers is given
below.*
* 'TRUCK SYSTEM IN LERWICK.
'It appears from the returns and documents received by the
Registrar-General of Seamen, that the indulgence granted by the
Board of Trade under their special regulations, M. 2884/1864, to
the owners and masters of sealing and whaling vessels, in respect
to seamen engaged at Orkney and Shetland, has in a great measure
been abused, and the whole object of the regulations defeated
by the agents employed by and representing the owners at
Lerwick. The Board of Trade are informed that many of the
Shetland seamen who should have been discharged before the
Superintendent there, within a reasonable time after their being
landed on the termination of a first or second voyage, remain
undischarged and unpaid even into the currency of the succeeding
year, and that some of the releases for 1870 still remain
incomplete.
'It should be borne in mind that the exceptional regulations
referred to were issued by the Board of Trade, with a view to the
convenience of the owners and masters of this class of vessels, and
the protection of the Shetland seamen; but as the latter intention
seems to have been purposely frustrated, the Board of Trade direct
you to inform the owners and masters of those vessels whose
crews are engaged before you during the ensuing season, that
unless they cause their agents to comply with the spirit as well as
the letter of these regulations, and discharge the men within one
month of their being landed, the Board will be necessitated either
to render the regulations more stringent, or withdraw them
altogether. If the latter alternative were adopted, the discharge of
the Orkney and Shetland whaling crews would have to take place
under the more rigid terms prescribed by the Merchant Shipping
Act, 1854, which of all other vessels at ports in the United
Kingdom.'
'CUSTOM HOUSE, PETERHEAD,
'10<th March> 1871
'SIR,-The foregoing is a copy of directions just received from
the Board of Trade, dated 7th March, regarding the faulty way in
which seamen are discharged from Peterhead whaling vessels at
Lerwick; and I now beg to call your attention thereto, requesting
that you would instruct your agent at Lerwick to attend to the
previous instructions issued, which were circulated among the
masters and agents when they were issued.
'W.R. BALFOUR.
'Mr. R. KIDD, Merchant.'
[Page 86]
'LERWICK, 27<th March> 1871.
'HAY & CO. <to> R. KIDD.
'We are duly favoured with your's of 16th instant, enclosing a
communication from the Board of Trade in reference to payment
of wages to Shetlandmen on board of ships in the Greenland trade,
and headed by the words, 'Truck in Lerwick,'-a cry raised by a
stranger who has taken up his residence in Shetland, and is now
endeavouring, by every means in his power, to make himself
prominent both here and elsewhere.
'We utterly deny that we have ever 'purposely frustrated' the
Board regulations in respect to the payment of these men; on the
contrary, we have kept a clerk, whose time has been chiefly
occupied in settling the wages in presence of the collector as they
came to town one by one, according to their own convenience; and
you know how far the commission we get from the ships can go
towards his salary. Nobody can compel the men to come to town
all at one time for their wages; and if the releases of 1870 are not
yet completed, it is not our fault.
'Without attaching any blame to you, we consider the document
referred to-if it is meant to apply to us-a gratuitous insult. The
Greenland agency is no great object, and after this season we shall
not put ourselves in a position to have it repeated.'
'PETERHEAD, 23<d March> 1871.
'R. KIDD <to> HAY & CO.
'I sent the document from the Board of Trade, in case you should
not have received a copy. I am of opinion that the men will
suffer more by this new order than the merchants, from the
experience I have had here. Were I not to give some credit to
some of our own men during the winter, their families would
starve. I do not wonder you feel sore upon the subject of the
report.'
'LERWICK, 27<th March> 1871.
'HAY & CO. <to> R. KIDD.
'We have yours of 23d instant. With respect to advances, our
people are differently circumstanced from yours. The married
men have all farms in the country, and the young men live with
their friends there, and we never see them from the time they settle
the one year until they come to town to engage the next; so during
the winter they neither ask, nor would we give them any supplies if
they did, as in all probability they would offer their services first to
agents who held no claim against them. Of the twenty men
engaged for the 'Mazinthien,' not one was due us a shilling, and
their month's wages was paid to them in cash at the shipping
office at the time they signed articles; and any advances their
families may get during their absence is given on their monthly
notes, which are the only authority we have for making the
deduction from their wages when they return.
'A great deal of absurdity has been written lately on this subject by
well-meaning people, but who were entirely ignorant of the whole
matter, and ready to believe whatever was told them, without
taking the trouble to ascertain whether it was true or false.'
'LERWICK, 22<d. May> 1871
'HAY & CO. <to> R. KIDD.
'Referring to your letter of 16th March, we now send you
enclosed abstract account of payments to Shetlandmen on board
vessels for which we have acted as agents during the past three
seasons, 1869, 1870, and 1871, to show how far we have benefited
by what the Board of Trade are pleased to call the 'Truck System
in Lerwick.'
'We are almost inclined to suppose the document now referred
to, received in your letter of the above date, was titled at
Peterhead, as we can scarcely believe it would be issued from a
public office in London before previous inquiry had been made on
the subject.
'As to signing the releases at the Custom House, neither the
owners nor agents of the ship can compel the men to come to
Lerwick for their wages, otherwise than they find it convenient for
themselves. It would save us much trouble if they would wait in
town a few hours after the ship's arrival, and receive their wages
all at once at the Custom House; or, when they happen to be
landed at a distance from Lerwick, if they could arrange to meet
together here for the purpose at the same time.
'While matters remain as at present, whether these releases are
signed or not, we can only do as we have always done in time past:
pay the men promptly when they call. The supplies mentioned in
the account now enclosed consist mostly of meal given to the
men's families to account of their half-pay notes, and on which the
profits cannot pay cellar rents, and servants' wages receiving and
delivering it; so that, beyond the 21/2 per cent. commission on the
wages, we have no inducement to continue in the trade.'
The abstract account above referred to is given below.*
* ABSTRACT ACCOUNT of WAGES paid by HAY & CO.,
Lerwick, to Shetlandmen belonging to Ships engaged in the
Greenland and Davis' Straits Seal and Whale Fishery, during the
years 1869, 1870, and 1871:-
Name of Ship Men Amount of Supplies before Paid in
Wages and Sailing, and to Cash
Oil-Money family during
the Man's
Absence
1869 Labrador 20 £94 14 10 £4 3 9 £90 11 1
1869 Intrepid 28 355 0 21/2 71 19 51/2 283 0 9
1869 Alexander 21 272 19 8 31 14 11 241 4 9
Total 69 £722 14 81/2 £107 18 11/2 £614 16 7
1870 Labrador 21 £196 9 5 £7 18 0 £188 11 5
1870 Mazinthien16 226 18 0 49 7 1 177 10 11
1870 Eclipse 12 256 2 0 29 5 9 226 16 3
1870 Erik 30 562 0 6 66 17 41/2 495 3 11/2
Total 79 £1241 9 11 £153 8 21/2 £1088 1 1/2
1871 Labrador 25 £221 7 4 ...... £221 7 4
1871 Erik 26 138 2 5 £ 8 15 3 £129 7 2
1871 Eclipse#
1871 Mazinthein#
1871 Erik to
D. Straits# 51 £359 9 9 £8 15 3 £350 14 6
1869 69 £722 14 81/2 £107 18 11/2 £614 16 7
1870 79 £1241 9 11 £153 8 21/2 £1088 1 81/2
1871 51 £359 9 9 £ 8 15 3 £350 14 6
199 £2323 14 41/2 £270 1 7 £2053 12 9 1/2
Average per
man for the
three years £11 13 6 £1 7 2 £10 6 4
# Voyage not ended.
In conclusion, I have only to add, that Hay & Co. have given
notice to their friends, the shipowners in Peterhead and Dundee,
that they cannot continue any longer to act for them.
3624. You say in that statement that you manage four estates in the
country: what are these estates?-There are two for which we act
as factors-the estates of Lord Zetland, and Mr. Bruce of
Simbister; and there are two of which we are lessees-the Burra
islands, belonging to the Misses Scott of Scalloway, and the
Gossaburgh estate, in Yell and Northmavine.
3625. You say that the tenants on the estate of Mr. Bruce of
Simbister, with the exception of those on the island of Whalsay,
and Whalsay Skerries, are free to fish for whom they like: what
is the nature of the obligation under which the tenants in the island
of Whalsay lie?-There is only one fish-curing establishment
there, and the men could not conveniently fish out of the island.
We have a place rented from the proprietor as a curing
establishment, with booths and beaches, and all curing
preparations made for receiving their fish; and it is an understood
thing that the tenants are to deliver the fish to us at the current
price of the country.
3626. That is not an obligation that enters into any written
lease?-No; it is merely an understanding with the proprietor. We
have no lease of the island.
3627. Is it a condition of the verbal tacks of the [Page 87] tenants,
that they shall fish for you?-Yes; they are made to understand
that they are to deliver their fish to us at the current price.
3628. That applies to the home fishing?-To the home fishing
only. The Whalsay men are not engaged in any other fishing.
3629. They don't go to the Faroe fishing at all?-No.
3630. Is yours the only shop upon that island?-The only shop.
3631. Have you an establishment at the Out Skerries too?-Do you
mean at the Skerries lying to the eastward, where the boats deliver
their fish?
3632. Yes.-No, we have no establishment for supplying the
people with goods; but we have beach boys and curing materials at
the Skerries to the east of Whalsay.
3633. Is there not a firm who have an establishment there?-Yes,
at Skerries; but that is a different Skerries, which lies farther out
beyond where the lighthouse is. There is more than one curer
there, but the Whalsay men don't deliver any of their fish at that
place.
3634. It is at the Out Skerries where other firms have
establishments-both shops and curing places?-Yes; but we have
nothing there.
3635. Do the Whalsay people fish for these other firms at the Out
Skerries?-No.
3636. Where do their fishermen come from?-From Lunnasting,
Delting, Nesting, and other places.
3637. They are not inhabitants of the islands?-No.
3638. Then the establishment at Out Skerries is a temporary
one?-No. I think one curer has an establishment there all the
year round, and a factor; but the fishermen don't live there all the
year round. They live in huts during the fishing, and go home to
their families when the fishing is over.
3639. You say that some of the men fish to one curer and some to
another, as they find convenient: in that statement do you refer to
the Simbister estate, with the exception of Whalsay?-Yes, with
the exception of Whalsay. It includes Whalsay also, so far as the
cattle, ponies, hosiery, and other things are concerned. There is no
restriction on them selling these where they like; it is simply the
fish they take in the island that we expect to get.
3640. In Whalsay, are the fishermen expected to deal only in your
store for their fishing materials and the supplies for their
families?-That is quite optional. They can take their supplies
from our store; and suppose they take most of them there, because
it is more convenient for them than to go anywhere else.
3641. In point of fact they have no option, because there is no
other shop in Whalsay?-There is not, but they can go to Lerwick,
and they do go there sometimes. I think the note I have given in as
to Burra answers that question.
3642. Is there any restriction on the establishment of other shops in
Whalsay?-There is no means for any person opening a shop
there. There is no shop, and no building, and no right to build in
the island without the proprietor's liberty. There is only the one
shop there.
3643. What is the population of the island?-I don't think the
census of last year would show that, because it is mixed up with
other parts of the parish.
3644. Have you any idea how many fishermen are employed by
you in the island?-Yes, I can tell that. We have twenty-seven
fully-manned boats, each with six men and boys. These are the
fishermen; but there are tenants who are not fishermen, and
fishermen who are not tenants.
3645. That would give a total of 162 fishermen employed by you,
but some of them may be members of the same family?-Yes.
3646. Are there many tenants who are not fishermen?-Not very
many.
3647. Have there been any applications for liberty to establish a
new shop in the island of Whalsay?-No.
3648. You have never, in your capacity as factor for Mr. Bruce,
received an application for ground for that purpose?-Never.
3649. Would you have any objection to grant such permission if it
were asked?-Although I am acting as factor for Mr. Bruce, the
granting or refusal of such an application would depend entirely
upon the proprietor.
3650. I suppose you cannot tell whether he would refuse it or
not?-I cannot tell. In fact we have the only curing establishment
there. We have the beaches, and all the preparations for curing,
and there could be no other establishment in Whalsay.
3651. I am not speaking of an establishment for fish-curing; but
suppose a merchant wished to establish a shop there for the sale of
provisions and soft goods, do you think he would meet with a
refusal from Mr. Bruce?-I cannot answer that question.
3652. In Whalsay you are only factors for Mr. Bruce, not lessees
of the island?-We are not lessees. I act as Mr. Bruce's factor.
3653. Yet, notwithstanding that, the islanders are bound to fish
for any one to whom the proprietor lets the fish-curing
establishment?-Yes; on the understanding with the curer, that he
pays the same price as other curers in the country pay for the
produce of the fishing.
3654. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce for your booths and curing
establishment; and in consideration of that rent it is understood
that the tenants are bound to deliver their fish to you?-Yes.
3655. Have the fishermen refused, in any cases within your
experience, to fulfil that obligation? Have they smuggled their fish
away, or endeavoured to evade that stipulation?-I understand that
before we came to the island they smuggled a great part of their
fish away to other curers, but, so far as I can learn, I don't think
they smuggle any of them away now. I believe we have got the
whole procedure.
3656. How long is it since you got the island?-I think it is five or
six years ago.
3657. Who was the merchant before?-The proprietor received
their fish himself.
3658. Suppose a fisherman were to bring his fish to Lerwick, or
take them to Skerries or any other station, and sell them, would the
result be, that he would have to leave his farm?-I cannot say what
the result would be if he were to do so, because we have never
been aware of any single case where a fisherman went past us with
his fish.
3659. But if he did so, would you consider yourselves entitled to
remove him?-No, not to remove him; but we would consider
ourselves entitled to complain to Mr. Bruce.
3660. And he would remove him?-If he thought proper.
3661. You say that in 1870, after deducting advances, you paid the
men in that island £1222: would the number of men fishing for
you at that time be about the same that you have now?-I think
there were 155 in 1870.
3662. That sum of £1222 was the amount of cash balances due to
them and paid to them at the end of the year?-Yes; and which,
when paid, left them entirely clear in our books.
3663. Was their rent paid in account with you?-These were the
payments to the fishermen. The tenants would pay their rents to
me as factor separately out of that sum.
3664. But in what form are your accounts made up?-My factory
accounts are kept entirely free from our fishing accounts.
3665. The payment of rent there would be made at the same time
when you went to settle with your fishermen?-Yes.
3666. I presume you gave them a separate receipt for their rents,
and entered the payment in a separate factory book?-Yes.
3667. Is the form of accounting with the fishermen in Whalsay the
same as you use in your dealings with your other fishermen?-
Quite the same.
3668. Have they pass-books at the shop?-Some of them have
pass-books, and some have not.
[Page 88]
3669. I suppose that in the name of each fisherman, there is an
account in the books kept at the shop?-Every fisherman has a
page for himself.
3670. In it all the goods furnished to him or to his family are
entered on the one side?-Yes.
3671. Is there a credit side to the account?-Yes. When we settle
with him, we give him credit for his share of the fishing.
3672. Is there a separate fishing-book?-There is a book kept by
the fish factor, in which he enters the fish as he receives them.
3673. He is a separate man from the shopman?-Yes; he keeps a
separate book, in which the green fish as they are received are
entered in name of the company or crew.
3674. Is a bargain made with the fishermen at the beginning of the
year?-Sometimes, but not often. Where there is no bargain made
with them, the general understanding is, that the men get what
supplies they require, and that they get also the current price of the
season for their fish.
3675. That is the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.
3676. Are they entitled to one-half of the take?-Not in this case.
They get the whole of their take. It is a different agreement
altogether from that which obtains in the case of the smacks that
prosecute the cod fishing at Faroe. In this case the boat and lines
belong to the men themselves, and the whole of their catch
belongs to them. At the end of the season their catch is added up
and divided, and, after any company expenses are taken off, the
rest is divided among the men.
3677. How are they valued?-The fish are weighed green and
measured, and the weight is entered in the factor's book. They
deliver to us twice or thrice a week, and at the end of the season
the whole is added up and converted into money.
3678. How do you estimate the money value then?-Just
according to the price of the fish for the year.
3679. But the price you pay is for cured fish?-No; the price of
cured fish is what we obtain for them when we sell them ready for
market.
3680. Then the price paid to the men is the price for green fish?-
Yes; a different thing altogether.
3681. Do you pay the men according to the price of green fish at
the end of the season?-Yes, a certain price per cwt.
3682. How much will a cwt. of green fish weigh when cured?-It
is reckoned that 21/4 cwt. of green fish will make 1 cwt. of dry fish.
3683. Then, in fixing the price of green fish at the end of the
season, the principal consideration is what the price of cured fish
may be?-Yes, the price which cured fish bring in the market.
3684. You ascertain the price of cured fish, and calculate from that
what price you are to allow to the fishermen for the green fish
throughout the season?-Yes.
3685. Is the sale of cured fish going on during the autumn and
winter, or are your sales generally later?-The sales are generally,
made in the months of September and October. The bulk of the
ling is sold in these months.
3686. Would it not be equally convenient to fix the price of the
green fish about the time when your sales are made?-It is about
that time that the price of the green fish is fixed, and we settle
immediately afterwards.
3687. I understood your settlement was not made until later?-It is
generally in November. In some cases we may settle in the
beginning or December.
3688. But with some merchants the settling time is later, is it
not?-They generally begin to settle about November, and I think
they mostly all settle about November or December.
3689. I think some statements have been made to the effect that
the settlement goes on as late in the year as February. I don't think
those statements were made with reference to your firm, but rather
had reference to others: do you know whether that is so?-I think
we have settled with most of our fishermen now.
3690. But don't you know the practice of other firms?-It is
sometimes not convenient to settle until further on in the season,
and I think Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh has not settled yet. But there
is a reason for that: he has been out of the country.
3691. In point of fact, is it not the usual practice that the
settlement does not take place until January or February?-The
settlements generally begin very soon after Martinmas, and
continue until perhaps about the end of the year. In some cases
they may as late as January or February.
3692. Is there any reason for that?-None; except that people
cannot get all their work done at one time. They must take one
district before another.
3693. Are your settlements later in some districts than they are at
Whalsay?-In some districts they are later.
3694. They may be protracted up to the New Year?-Yes,
frequently.
3695. Have you completed all your settlements now?-We have
completed all our settlements, with the exception of Burra. We
have not settled with the men there yet, but we shall commence to
settle with them immediately.
3696. Are the fishermen consulted with regard to the fixing of the
current price at the end of the season?-I think very seldom; but it
is quite an easy matter to know that the merchant can afford to
give after he has sold his fish, and every fish-curer is very anxious
to give the highest possible price he can afford to the fisherman,
for the sake of securing his services another year.
3697. But this rule cannot apply to Whalsay, because there the
fishermen are bound to fish?-Yes; but we are bound to pay the
fishermen there the same price as is paid by the other curers
through the country. The curers very often pay a higher current
price than they can afford, just from a desire to get the people's
services in the following year.
3698. The fish-curers markets, I suppose, are over all the world?-
Yes.
3699. Are they to a considerable extent in Spain?-Yes, for the
cod. A great deal of the cod is sold there. The ling is sold in
Leith, Glasgow, Ireland, and in London. There is not much of it
goes to Spain.
3700. Is there any understanding among the fish-merchants in
Shetland, after their sales have been made in September, as to
what the current price is to be held to be?-That is scarcely
necessary, because, when they have sold their dry fish, they know
exactly how far they can go with their fishermen.
3701. Do you mean that each curer knows from his own sales?-
Yes; each curer knows exactly. When we sold our fish this year at
£23, we knew what we could pay our fishermen without losing
money. We knew that we could not exceed 8s. per cwt.
3702. But, in point of fact, is there any communication between
the Shetland fish-merchants on that subject?-It is quite possible
that after the fish are sold, the fish-merchants may converse
together on the subject if they happen to meet.
3703. Is a meeting held for the purpose of fixing the current
price?-No.
3704. Has there ever been a practice of holding such meetings?-
Not that I ever heard of.
3705. Is there any correspondence entered into between the
fish-merchants for the purpose of ascertaining the average
price?-I don't know that there is any correspondence entered into
specially for that purpose; but it is quite possible that, when one
curer is writing to another, the subject may be mentioned.
3706. Am I to understand you to say that there is no practice of
meeting for the purpose of fixing the price, and that such a
meeting never has been held, to your knowledge?-I cannot say
what meetings have been held; but I am not aware of any meeting
having ever been held for such a purpose. I have not attended any
such meeting.
3707. Then is it quite correct to say, as you say [Page 89] here, that
the price paid to the fishermen for their fish is the current price of
the country?-Yes.
3708. Is it not rather the price which each fish-merchant estimates
that he can afford to give?-The price which each fish-merchant
pays makes the current price of the country; and, so far as I know,
the price that the fish-curers in Shetland have got this year for dry
fish has been £23 per. ton. They have all been sold at the same
price to south-country merchants.
3709. You believe there has been no difference?-I don't think
there has been any difference this year at all.
3710. But in one part of your statement you point out that the sum,
left as remuneration to the curer for the season's work is not very
large: does not that rather go to show that the fish-curer does not
take into consideration so much the current price as the price
which is actually paid to him for his fish?-It is the price that he
receives for his fish which enables him to say exactly what price
he can afford to pay to the fishermen. I think the curers this year
have all been paid the same price for ling, and I believe it was
considered a very high price.
3711. Is there generally much difference in the prices which
different curers get?-Very seldom; sometimes 10s. or sometimes
£1. If there is a great demand for fish, some merchants, by holding
on later than others, may obtain an advance of that amount, and in
that case they might give their fishermen a little more. Perhaps
they do so, and get more of them to fish for them another year.
3712. But the fishermen who are bound to fish for a particular
merchant don't get the benefit of such an increased price?-There
are not very many fishermen bound to fish, so far as I know; only a
few cases.
3713. To return to Whalsay: you say there are very few debts in the
books there, and that the people are considered to be in good
circumstances?-There are almost no debts due to Hay & Co.
there.
3714. Therefore, in settling, there is universally a balance in
favour of the fishermen?-Universally the balance is in favour of
the fishermen, and sometimes they are pretty large balances.
3715. Can you speak to the prices at which goods are sold in the
shop at Whalsay? Is it the market price in Lerwick?-We charge
the Lerwick prices at Whalsay, with a small addition to cover the
expenses of transit.
3716. What may be the percentage of that addition?-I cannot say;
it varies. Perhaps it would be 21/2 per cent. additional. The men
being free, we are desirous sell as low as possible, in order to
secure their custom, because they are very near Lerwick, and they
can perhaps supply themselves elsewhere.
3717. You say in your statement, 'The Shetland fishermen have
been represented as ignorant and uneducated. This is a great
mistake. They are as intelligent, shrewd, and capable of attending
to their own interest as any similar class of men in Scotland.' I
have no doubt that is quite true; but do you think they are equally
independent in character with other Scotchmen?-So far as I am
able to judge, they are.
3718. Don't you think they are a little shy about speaking out their
minds to their employers?-I cannot say what they do with others,
but they speak pretty freely to us.
3719. Do you think the Whalsay men would tell you if they desired
to be released from the condition in their tack obliging them to
fish for you, or that they would strike if they felt it to be an
obnoxious condition?-The Whalsay men have told me repeatedly
that they are far better off at present than they have ever been in
time past. They are not in debt to the fish-curer, and their rents are
well paid.
3720. I presume you would not allow them to get very deep into
your debt at the shop?-We have never had occasion to restrict
their advances very much. We could not allow them to get
very deep; but, as yet, we have not had occasion to restrict their
advances.
3721. Are the advances made to the fishermen during the course of
the season generally made by way of supplying them with goods at
the shop?-They can get any supplies they want at the shop, or
money either if they require it, during the course of the season.
3722. If they want money, to whom do they apply for it?-To the
fish factor there.
3723. What is about the extent of advances made to the fishermen
in the course of the year?-It varies very much. Some of them, I
suppose, have not 10s in the whole course of the year,-perhaps
they go and deal with some other person; while others may have
£5 or £6, or more.
3724. You say that some have not 10s. of advances: do you mean
money advances?-They get any money they want.
3725. But how much cash is advanced during the year by your fish
factor in Whalsay?-I have stated how much the produce came to,
and how much we paid in money at the end of the year. [Exhibits
statement.]
3726. That brings out the amount of cash advanced during the year
to be about £362?-Yes.
3727. So that the amount of advances in goods or on account
would come to about £920?-Yes; that was in 1870. I believe the
proportion of money is greater for the past year, because we paid
them a larger sum of money.
3728. Would the amount of goods taken this year be less or greater
than in the previous year?-I think the goods would be less this
year, because the men, having made a very good fishing in the
previous year, had less occasion to take supplies from the shop;
and therefore I think we would be giving them more money in the
course of this year than we did formerly.
3729. You think the result of the good fishing in the previous year
would be, that the men dealt less at your shop?-They had no
occasion to take so large supplies.
3730. How were they supplied with meal and other necessaries?-
They had better crops, and did not require them.
3731. I thought you said that was owing to the good fishing?-To
the good fishing and the good crops.
3732. You don't mean to say that they came oftener to Lerwick for
their provisions?-I cannot say how often they came to Lerwick.
They are quite at liberty to come here when they please.
3733. But the fact that there was a good fishing would lessen the
amount of dealing at the shop?-There was a good fishing and a
good crop; they had got a large sum of money in the previous year,
and many of them very likely had that money beside them, except
what they had lodged in bank; and they could buy for ready money
at the shop instead of entering it in the book
3734 Then one effect of a good fishing is, that the men buy at your
shop for ready money rather than by running up an account?-Yes,
frequently
3735. Do you know whether many of the fishermen in Whalsay
and elsewhere have large deposits in savings banks or other
banks?-I believe there are very large sums at their credit in the
Union Bank, which has been established longest here.
3736. Of course you have no personal knowledge of that?-No;
but if you had power to command a sight of the bank books, I
believe the sum would astonish you.
3737. There is no savings bank here except the post office savings
bank?-No.
3738. The Burra men are employed by you in the home fishing,
and those of them who choose in the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
3739. But in Burra, as in Whalsay, the men are bound to fish for
you in the home fishing?-The men are bound to deliver us their
home fish. That fishing, however, is carried on now only to a very
small extent. Most of the men in Burra are otherwise employed.
3740. How many boats have you engaged in the home fishing from
Burra?-They vary. There are a few boats that fish in spring, and
there are a few men [Page 90] who stop at home all summer, and
fish then; so that at one time there are a good number, and at
another time not half so many.
3741. Are these Burra men under an obligation which forms part
of their verbal tack?-The men who stop at home are under an
obligation, at least it is an understood thing that they are to deliver
their fish to us.
3742. Is there any written obligation to that effect?-No; but in
point of fact they could deliver them nowhere else, because we
have the stations on the islands.
3743. Could they not deliver them for salting and curing in
Scalloway?-Yes; but Scalloway is such great distance from the
curing stations, that they are much better off as they are.
3744. Are there no curing stations at Scalloway?-There are; but
Scalloway is such a great distance from Burra, that the men could
not go there every time they came from the fishing.
3745. Is the island of Trondra in your hands?-Yes; it belongs to
the Earl of Zetland.
3746. Have you a curing station there?-No.
3747. Do the Trondra people deliver their fish at Burra or
Scalloway?-I don't know if there are any Trondra people fishing
for us. They deliver at Scalloway any fish they get.
3748. There is no obligation upon them to fish for you?-No.
3749. And, in point of fact, you think they don't do it?-We get
none of their fish at Burra. It is possible they may deliver some to
our men at Scalloway.
3750. Was there an obligation signed by some of the Burra men
some years ago, binding them to fish for you?-Some years ago,
after a series of bad crops and bad fishings, the islands had got
largely in our debt, and in order to get the sons to help the fathers
to pay their rents, which we were bound to pay for them every
year, we got them to sign an obligation.
3751. Was that about eight years ago?-I think it would be about
that time. It was about the time when we were getting a renewal
of the lease. However, that obligation was found to be unworkable
and was laid aside, and has never been acted on.
3752. What were its terms?-I cannot recollect very well. The
fishers at home were to be bound to deliver their fish to us.
3753. Some of the men did sign it?-Some of them did sign it; but
some of them refused, and it was laid aside.
3754. Does the document exist?-Very likely it does. It is
probably somewhere in the office, if it has not been destroyed; but
immediately after it was signed it became quite a dead letter.
3755. Were not some of the men fined for delivering some of their
fish elsewhere?-I have made a statement about that; but it was
not for delivering their fish elsewhere.
3756. What men were so fined?-I think there were one or two of
them; but I don't remember their names.
3757. Was Peter Smith one of them?-Very possibly.
3758. Do you remember whether the money was returned to
him?-I think it was, so far as I remember. I think any fines that
were imposed were returned.
3759. You found that the exaction of this fine did not tend to make
the men more willing to deliver their fish to you?-The fines were
not imposed for not delivering their fish. The object of the fines
was to compel the sons to assist the fathers.
3760. But the fine was imposed upon the father?-Yes.
3761. Then the obligation we have been speaking of was an
obligation binding not only the tenant, but also the members of his
family?-Yes. So far as I know, none of the tenants delivered any
of their fish to us except what we get at present. Any of the
tenants who are fishing in small boats on the coast deliver all their
fish to us still.
3762. Are you aware of fish being smuggled to Scalloway, and
sold to dealers there?-I am not.
3763. If that were the case would you consider that you were
entitled to remove the men from their holdings in Burra?-There
are only a very few men who engage in the home fishing now.
The best of the fishermen are engaged fishing for other people at
Faroe.
3764. It is only when a man actually does engage in the home
fishing that he is obliged to deliver his fish to you?-Yes.
3765. If he chooses not to remain at home, or not to employ
himself in that fishing, there is no obligation upon him?-No. If
he chooses to remain at home, and employ himself fishing in small
boats on the coast, there is an obligation on him to deliver his fish
to us, but on all the other people there is no obligation, and most of
them fish to other people out of the island. I have mentioned in
my statement, that of the men engaged in the Faroe fishing, I think
only about one-fourth are employed by Hay & Co.
3766. There is no allegation that the men are bound to engage to
you in the Faroe fishing, and you say there is no obligation upon
them to sell their farm produce to you?-We never interfere with
the farm produce.
3767. Are you aware of cases in Shetland-I don't speak of your
own dealings alone, but of your own dealings and those of other
merchants-in which tenants are held bound in any way to sell
their farm produce, their cattle, or their ponies, to fish-curers who
are factors or tacksmen?-I am not aware of any such cases. It
may be the case, but not within my knowledge.
3768. Is there any system of a kind of mortgage of the cattle in
security for debts at the shops of fish-merchants?-It is quite
possible that if man wants an advance he may promise to sell the
merchant or the factor, or whoever he is, a cow or other animal
at a certain season of the year, in order to repay him that advance;
but I don't know of any other mortgage of that kind in the country.
3769. The mortgage may not be very much worth in law; but have
you known cases in which a fish-merchant, being the sole or
principal creditor of fisherman dealing at his store had so
mortgaged his cattle, and that it was marked as belonging to the
fish-merchant?-It is quite possible that may be done some cases,
but the landlord has a preference over such cattle, so that such a
mortgage would be of no value. A man may give a promise to sell
a cow two or three months hence, and on that promise get an
advance of a few pounds of money; but it depends entirely on the
man's promise whether the money is paid or not, because the
landlord can step in, if the tenant is in debt to him, and take his
animal.
3770. That is, if the tenant owes the landlord anything and has not
enough to pay the landlord's claim?-Yes.
3771. You don't know of any particular case of that sort?-I could
not mention any particular case.
3772. And you don't know of fish-merchants or tacksmen who
are in the habit, to a large extent, of squaring their debts in that
way?-No; we don't do it.
3773. The fishermen in Burra are supplied with goods at your shop
in Scalloway?-The statement I have given in contains an answer
to that question. They not confined to deal at our stores. They can
deal with any other curer or shopkeeper they choose.
3774. But, in point of fact, they generally deal at your shop in
Scalloway?-They generally deal there, and in Lerwick too, if they
want anything. If they want money, they generally come here.
3775. The Burra men deal at your shop on credit, and there is a
settlement with them once a year?-Yes; the same as with the
others.
3776. Is the book there kept in the same way as at Whalsay?-In
the same way.
3777. Is it kept in the same way as the books for your other
customers in Scalloway?-In the same way. Their supplies are
charged against them at the end of the year, and we bring the book
in here and settle with them.
3778. Is there a separate book for the Burra men at [Page 91] the
Scalloway shop?-We keep a separate book for the Burra men's
accounts in Lerwick.
3779. For their shop accounts?-For their shop accounts; and the
fish factor has a separate book, which he marks the fish he
receives from the men.
3780. What is the purpose of keeping a separate book for the Burra
men here?-There are a good many names, and it is to keep them
apart from others. At the end of the season we may be settling
with them when the other books are in use in the office.
3781. You settle with the Burra men at Lerwick, and not at
Scalloway?-Yes.
3782. But the shopkeeper at Scalloway sends in his accounts here
before you settle with them?-Yes. The men call there and see
the state of their account when they like, and then we get in a list
of their debts to the shop. There is nothing entered to their credit
there, but a list of the advances they have got from the shopkeeper
at Scalloway is sent here.
3783. Their credits are all kept here?-Yes.
3784. Are your other fishermen in that quarter settled with here or
at Scalloway?-They are settled here, for the most part.
3785. In this statement you have not told us anything about the
amount of balances generally paid to the Burra men?-I have not,
because we have not settled with them this year yet. I daresay, by
looking over the books, I could tell you what we paid them last
year and the years before. At this moment we are due the Burra
people extremely little, because all the men who have been fishing
in the smacks during the summer have been settled with, and got
their money; and for the people who stopped at home and fished
here, after we deduct their rents, we have very little money to pay
them.
3786. You charge the rent in the account against them at Burra?-
Yes.
3787. You do so because you are the tacksmen yourselves?-Yes.
3788. Then, in general, does any money pass at all in settling with
the Burra men?-Yes; there are considerable sums in some cases.
3789. In settling with those of them who are Faroe fishers do you
deduct the rent in their accounts also?-When any of the tenants
are fishing in our smacks, we deduct the rent from what they have
to receive.
3790. Do those men who fish at Faroe get their supplies at the
Scalloway shop the same as the others?-They get their supplies
there or here, as they find convenient.
3791. Have they generally an account in both shops?-Generally
they have, except where we have occasion to restrict their
advances.
3792. But if a man has an account in both shops, might there not
be some difficulty in restricting his advance?-In that case we
close the account at Scalloway, and give the man what he requires
here; and then we can restrict his advances if we see it to be
necessary.
3793. Have you often found it necessary, after bad fishing seasons,
to make considerable advances to men in the way of provisions?-
Yes, we have found that necessary, because the men could get
supplies from nowhere else, and we were obliged to give them
meal and other things in order to keep their families alive.
3794. Are you speaking of Burra and Whalsay, or of all your
fishing stations?-Most of the shops that we have in the country
are obliged to give large advances in the case of bad seasons.
Three years ago the crops were very bad; the people had not seed
to sow their land with; and we brought in a pretty large quantity of
seed-corn and potatoes, which we supplied to the people in Yell.
3795. That was on the Gossaburgh estate, of which you are
tacksmen?-Yes; and they have since then paid it up in full.
3796. Do you act in the same way with fishermen are not bound to
fish for you?-If they were under any engagement-if they signed
an obligation to deliver their fish to us-then we would do so.
3797. Whether they were on an estate under your management or
not?-Yes.
3798. Have you sometimes made such engagements with them?-
Occasionally we have.
3799. Was that with individual men?-Yes, with individual men
when they wanted advances.
3800. That is to say, at the end of the fishing season, when you
found on settling up that there was a balance against a man, and
that he continued to want further supplies from your shop, you
would enter into an engagement with him to fish to you next
year?-Yes.
3801. Would that engagement be a verbal one?-Sometimes
written and sometimes verbal.
3802. In that case the advances would be in the form of goods
supplied at your shops?-Both money and goods. We would give
him money if he asked for it.
3803. But the bulk of the advances would be in goods?-No.
Money would frequently be given when they wanted a special
advance.
3804. In a case of that kind, are your shopkeepers instructed to
make the advance to the men in either way?-If a man wants an
advance of £1 or £2 we make it to him ourselves, and the people
when they want goods, go to the shop for them.
3805. At what time are these advances generally made?-During
the winter or the spring seasons, before the fishing begins again.
3806. And during the autumn, before the settlement for the years
fishing has come round?-Yes. They frequently get money during
the summer.
3807. I suppose the settlement with your men in Lerwick takes
place in the office and not in the shop?-Yes, in the office.
3808. When the men get their payments in money, are they at
liberty to go where they like to spend them?-Yes; they get the
money in their hands, and go away from us with it.
3809. Whether they are Burra men or Whalsay men or
strangers?-Yes. We settle with the Whalsay men at Whalsay;
but all the money that we give at the settlements here, the men
go away with it out of the office.
3810. Is the settlement with the Whalsay men made in the shop?-
No; they are settled with at the manor-house at Simbister.
3811. Where is the settlement made at Gossaburgh?-The
settlement with the Yell tenants is made at the house of West
Sandwick.
3812. Have you shops in Yell?-None.
3813. The fishermen there, however, are bound to deliver their fish
to you?-Some of the Yell fishermen deliver their fish in summer
at Fetlar, and others again deliver them at Northmavine.
3814. What is the extent of the Gossaburgh estate?-I suppose the
rental is about £400 or £500, and I think the number of tenants is
about 120.
3815. Are the whole of these men bound to fish to you alone?-
Not the men sailing out of the country. It is only the men
remaining at home and fishing there during the summer who are
bound to fish to us.
3816. Who is the proprietor of the Gossaburgh estate?-Mrs.
Henderson Robertson.
3817. In speaking of the rental, you refer to the rent paid by
Messrs. Hay & Co. as lessees, which is about £500 a year?-Yes; I
think it is between £400 and £500.
3818. What will the average rental of the holdings be?-Perhaps
from 30s. to £5 or £6. There is one party who pays £65 or £70, but
he is not a fisherman.
3819. What is the gross rental paid to you from the estate?-It will
be seen from the valuation roll. I could not tell the gross rental
off-hand, because it is a peculiar tack. We pay a certain fixed sum
for it, and then we pay all the burdens on the estate, and it varies
somewhat. It is more in one year than in another.
3820. Are the tacks under which you hold Burra and Gossaburgh
in writing?-Yes, they are both written tacks.
3821. Do these tacks contain any reference to your [Page 92]
rights with regard to fishing?-The tacks state that we are at
liberty to let the lands, remove the tenants, and take new tenants,
and that we are to pay certain sums for the ground. I don't
remember whether there is anything specially mentioned about the
fishings. I think in the Burra tack there is something about them it
gives us right to all the fishings in the island. I am not sure that
the original proprietor had not a Crown charter which gave him a
right to the whole fishings, including oyster fishings and others;
and I think we have the whole of these rights.
3822. Perhaps you will show me these two tacks, so that I may
make an excerpt of any clause relating to the fishings?-I will do
so. There is no clause in either lease relating to the obligation of
the tenants to deliver their fish to the tacksmen.
3823. You say in your statement 'We have other curing stations at
different parts of the islands, and employ a number of men and
boys from all quarters during the summer months:' that refers to
the home fishing?-To the home fishing solely.
3824. There are curing stations at places quite separate from any
of the four properties you have been speaking of?-Yes.
3825. Where are they?-We have a curing station at Dunrossness;
we have another station at Fetlar; and we cure to some extent at
Scalloway, and also at Lerwick.
3826. At all of these stations have you shops from which you
supply the men?-We have a shop at Scalloway, and another here.
We have a factor at Fetlar, who supplies the fishermen with what
they require; and we have a man at Dunrossness, who keeps
supplies there also.
3827. At Dunrossness have you ever come into conflict with Mr.
Bruce's people with regard to the sale of goods or the purchase of
fish?-I think not.
3828. Is it understood there that you are to purchase from people
who are not upon his lands?-We purchase from people who are
not upon his lands, that is, from the Simbister or any other tenants,
who are quite free.
3829. But not from the Sumburgh tenants?-They never offer us
any of their fish, and we never ask them. We never interfere with
Mr. Bruce's fishings.
3830. Do you ever purchase from the Quendale tenants?-No, I
think not.
3831. You say fishings of all kinds succeed best when the men are
paid by shares. When they are secured in monthly wages, there is
no inducement for exertion. That is with reference to the Faroe
fishing?-Yes.
3832. Do you form that opinion from your experience of both
systems?-Yes, because on some occasions we have had to pay
wages to the men; but that has been very seldom.
3833. I think in another part of your statement you say that, when
an agreement to pay monthly wages has been made, the men
sometimes, if the price has been high, have repudiated their
bargain, and asked to be paid according to the current price at the
end of the season?-Yes.
3834. Has that happened often?-No; very seldom. The men
generally prefer to go on shares. There have been one or two
occasions when we had to guarantee them monthly wages in order
to induce them to go out to the fishing, but at the same time, if
their share of the fish exceeded that monthly wage, they got it.
3835. Is it your opinion that it would be a wholesome change if the
men were paid by wages, or that it is better for both parties that
things should remain as they are?-I don't think it would be a
good change to pay them by wages.
3836. Would it not tend to form more provident and careful habits
among the fishermen if they knew exactly how much they were to
receive?-I think it would be very much against the fishings if
such a system were adopted. The men would not get nearly so
many fish, and they would not earn so much money, if they were
paid by wages, as they do at present. Some of the men who are
fishing at the haaf earn as much £15 or £20 as during the summer,
and they would not get any one to pay them wages of that amount.
3837. How much would that be per month?-Perhaps about £5 per
month. No one would engage them at that figure.
3838. In the home fishing the boats generally belong to the
men?-I think, for the most part, they do.
3839. Is it a common practice for the fish-curer to advance the
money for a boat, or to supply the boat to the men and receive
payment from them by instalments?-It is generally the
understanding, that if a crew get a new boat, they pay up for it in
three years. In some cases they are able to pay up for it in one year
when there is a good fishing. I may mention one case in
Dunrossness, the year before last, where six mem came to us and
wanted a boat and lines. We gave them the advance, fitted them
out, and supplied their families during the season, and at the end of
the season they had earned with that boat and lines £200. The
agreement was, that they were to pay for the boat in one year if
they could; and if not, they were to get credit for three years. They
paid up for this boat and lines clear, and had money to get at the
end of the season.
3840. When an arrangement of that sort is entered into, is a certain
sum deducted from the men's earnings at the end of the year in
respect of the boat?-There is an account kept for the boat. If they
pay one-third share the first year, it is taken off as a whole, and not
taken off each individual.
3841. They are jointly and severally liable for the price of the
boat?-Yes; they have a company account. The boat is charged to
that account; and when they settle, there are two-thirds carried
down to the debit of each man, and the rest is paid up.
3842. Then, in every case of that kind, there is a boat account
separate from the accounts of the individual members of the
crew?-Yes.
3843. And if any of the men have gone away from the country, or
have got deep in debt before the boat is paid up, the other
members of the crew remain liable for the whole amount?-They
are liable in point of law, but it is very seldom they pay anything
beyond their own share.
3844. When that comes to be paid out of the share of a man who
has an individual account, is his share of what remains due on the
boat generally entered to his debit in his own account each year?-
No, not separately. We keep an account against the boat and the
crew, and we give them credit for the whole of their fish when we
come to settle with them. Then we take off one-third the price of
the boat, along with the cost of any other supplies they may have
had in company, and divide the balance and enter it to each
separate man's credit, leaving two-thirds of the price of the boat at
the debit of the boat account.
3845. The balance that remains in favour of the men after that
comes into their separate accounts?-Yes.
3846. So that the boat account has a priority in the settlement over
the individual accounts of the men?-Yes.
3847. Where such a boat account exists, is it the case that the
individual men are generally, or always, dealing at the shop of the
merchant who advances the boat?-I cannot say. The men are at
liberty to deal where they like. Getting an advance of a boat does
not compel them to take their supplies from the same merchant.
3848. But is there any understanding or practice according to
which the men do deal at the merchant's shop?-I cannot say.
The men that we deal with are at liberty to take their supplies
either from us or from any other shop in the country.
3849. Are your shopkeepers allowed to make any intimation to the
men that they are expected to deal at your shop?-They are never
told to do so, and they never do it, so far as I am aware.
3850. Would they be checked or reprimanded if they did it?-We
never had occasion to reprimand them, because we never said a
word about it ourselves. Our shopkeepers never did it by our
orders, and I don't think they ever did it of their own accord.
[Page 93]
3851. In agreeing to open a boat account with men in that way, is
any preference given to men who deal at your shops, or who
undertake to deal there? Would you more readily agree to open an
account with such men than with others who did not deal with
you?-That is never taken into consideration at all.
3852. But when a boat account is opened, are they always
expected to deliver their fish to you until it is paid off?-That is
always part of the understanding, that they shall fish to us as long
as they're due a balance on the boat.
3853. And when the balance is paid, then they are free?-Yes;
they are at liberty to renew the agreement with us, or to go
anywhere else they like.
3854. Do you find that, at the end of the period when the balance
is paid off, the men are generally ready to continue to fish for
you?-Sometimes they fish for us, and sometimes they shift and
go to another curer.
3855. There is no general rule about that?-No.
3856. You say in your statement, that the men are quite safe with
the arrangement to get the current price at the end of the season for
their fish: 'They know the competition between curers all over the
islands is so keen, that they are secured to get the highest possible,
price that the markets can afford. Any curer that can offer a little
advantage to the fishermen over the others is certain to get more
boats the following year; and this is carried so far, that men with
limited capital, in their endeavours to obtain a large share of the
trade by giving credit and gratuities, in one way and another leave
nothing to themselves, and the end come to grief:' is that a
common thing in the islands?-It is not common, but it does
happen occasionally.
3857. Has that any connection with a statement which was made
in the evidence given in Edinburgh, about the necessity which a
merchant was under, to have a large amount of bad debts in order
to succeed in business?-I daresay it has.
3858. I suppose that refers to the same sort of dealers men with
limited capital, who push their business by giving the fishermen an
advantage in that way, and who were said to come to grief from
having too few bad debts?-Yes.
3859. Do you suppose the gentleman who gave evidence to that
effect, and which you have criticised in another part of your
statement, was referring to the same cases that you are there
referring to?-I am not referring to any particular case in that
statement. It is only afterwards that I mention evidence. In this
case, I say that a man with small capital who gives too large
advances to the fishermen, which they cannot repay, is very likely
to be unable to pay his own creditors.
3860. When you speak of him giving too large advance, do you
mean in the shape of supplies of going out of his shop?-Yes; and
giving too many gratuities to the fishermen, so that they have all
the profit, and he has none.
3861. What do you mean by gratuities to fishermen?-Fees, and
other inducements to fish, besides the regular current price.
3862. Is that both in the home and Faroe fishing?-Not in the
Faroe fishing. I refer to the home fishing only.
3863. Then in the home fishing there is sometimes an arrangement
to give fees to the fishermen in addition to the current price?-
Yes. For instance, the skipper of a boat, being the most
experienced man of the crew, generally gets a small fee; and there
are other gratuities paid, which differ at different stations.
3864. These gratuities are given in order to secure the fish of a
large number of fishermen?-Yes.
3865. Have you cases in your mind at present, which these
gratuities, and the excessive advances in goods, have led to the
failure of people entering into the trade for the first time?-In
making this statement I had particular cases before my mind; but
such do happen occasionally through the islands.
3866. You don't think the existence of such cases inconsistent
with your denial of Mr. Walker's statement with regard to bad
debts?-I have referred to his statement on that subject, simply for
the purpose of pointing out the absurdity of it.
3867. Of course if you speak of the debts as being absolutely bad
debts, the statement is absurd, as you point out but suppose that a
man starting business in Shetland gets a number of fishermen into
his debt to a certain amount, has he not a hold, over these
fishermen, so as to compel them to deliver their fish to him in
future?-He has no hold over them whatever for that purpose. He
has just this hold over them that if he chooses, he can go into the
court with them and prosecute them; but after they have fished to
him for some time, and find that they can get no further supplies
from him, they are very likely to go away and offer their services
to some one else.
3868. But suppose that at the end of the season a merchant has 100
fishermen who are in debt to him to the extent of £2 or £3 or £4,
and whom he can prosecute at once for recovery of that money, do
you think the fishermen have no inducement to continue to deliver
their fish to him, rather than allow him to prosecute?-It may
induce some of them to do so, but some of them may be frightened
and leave him, in case he were to prosecute them. We generally
find that when a man gets into debt, to us, we never see him again.
3869. Do you mean in debt to that extent, or to larger extent?-
When he gets into our debt to the extent of £6 or £8, he very soon
leaves us, and we never see him again. In many cases they know
very well that the prosecutor might have to pay the law expenses
and would get no return.
3870. May that not arise from the fact that you deal more leniently
with your debtors than other merchants?-I don't think we do. I
think other merchants carry on their businesses on much the same
principles as ourselves.
3871. Does it not strike you that the statement you are
contradicting about the value of bad debts to a Shetland business,
although it might be exaggerated in the terms which it is put, has
nevertheless a certain amount of truth in it?-I know quite well,
that if a man with small capital lays out that capital in buying
goods to supply fishermen, and delivers these goods to the
fishermen, and then has to pay for the goods and has nothing to
pay them with, he must shut his shop and become bankrupt.
3872. But if he has sufficient money to carry on for a little,-or if
he gets his bills renewed for a certain time, and manages to get the
fishermen bound to him by the fact that they are in his debt, and by
the fear of being prosecuted for that debt,-may he not have a very
good season next year, and be able to get a large supply of fish,
which he can sell at a profit, and so gradually make his way?-
Fish are not like ready money. You may have a pretty large
number of men fishing to you, but you cannot convert their fish
into money until perhaps the end of twelve months. You only get
your fish sold once a year, and you won't get any person in the
south to give you goods on credit for twelve months. Besides, a
fish-curer must always have a certain amount of debts standing in
his books against fishermen, and stock which he cannot make
available.
3873. Do you mean shop goods?-Yes, he must have shop goods,
and he must have debts in his books to a pretty large amount
before he can carry on extensively.
3874. I am assuming always that the man, although his capital may
be limited, has a certain amount of capital which will carry him on
for a couple of years?-Well, then the end would be sure to come.
3875. But he may manage to make a good business, and to carry it
on successfully; if he gets a certain number of fishermen under an
obligation to fish for him; or if he can induce them by offering
premiums and gratuities to fish for him rather than for others,-
can he not?-But in the meantime he is giving them supplies; and
while they may have got into his debt to the extent of £5 or £6
each man this year, on the understanding [Page 94] that they are to
fish to him next year and pay off their debt, yet when he comes to
settle with him he may find that they have not only not paid up
their old debt, but that there is something more added to it, as he
has been giving them supplies all the time.
3876. But, in a case of that sort the fish-merchant will probably try
to keep the supplies which he gives to his people down to as low a
point as possible; and if the season has been a good one for
agricultural produce, they may not require very extensive supplies
in the second season?-Perhaps so; but generally men who have
got into debt the first year, require supplies afterwards; and if you
stop the supplies at any time after the fishing has begun, the man
stops work, and when one man in a boat's crew stops work it
throws the whole idle.
3877. Therefore you think the fact of men getting into your debt
has no effect in securing their services as fishermen to you for the
future?-No. It is a certain way of throwing away money, and
getting rid of their services.
3878. Have you had any experience as to the mode of settling with
men who go to the herring fishing?-Yes.
3879. Is your firm engaged in that fishery?-It has been quite a
failure here for the last two or three years.
3880. What is the mode of dealing with the fishermen there? Is it
the same system that is pursued at Wick?-The herring fishing
here, for the most part, is carried on in the same small open boats
as are used at the haaf. At Wick they have large boats for the
purpose. Here each man has a certain number of nets of his own,
and they use their own boats and nets.
3881. When is the bargain made about the division of the produce;
or are the men engaged upon wages?-For the past few years the
herring fishing here has been so trifling, that scarcely any person
took the trouble to make a bargain with the men about it. If they
caught any herrings and delivered them, they generally made a
bargain for them about the time they commenced.
3882. Were they to get so much per cran?-Yes.
3883. Is that the same practice that is followed at Wick?-The
same practice, I think. At Uyea Sound I think there were as many
as sixty small boats that went to that fishing; but for the last two or
three years they have not cured a single cran of herrings, so that
the thing was not worth our attention.
3884. Are you aware what the general arrangement between the
fishermen and the curer in the herring fishing is-I don't speak of
Shetland alone, but at other places?-I understand the boats and
nets at Wick and other places belong to the fishermen; but the men
there are largely indebted to the fish-curers, who have to make
large advances to them before they can carry on the fishing.
3885. But the bargain made at the beginning of the season is for a
price per cran?-Yes.
3886. And that is due when?-It is not settled, believe, until the
end of the fishing.
3887. But the price is fixed at the beginning?-Yes.
3888. Would not that be a more advantageous arrangement for all
parties in the home fishing or in the Faroe fishing than that which
at present exists?-I don't think the fishermen here would agree to
it. We have on several occasions made an agreement with
individuals of both descriptions of crews, at the beginning of the
season, to give them a certain price for their fish; and if it
happened, as it frequently does, that the price rose towards the end
of the season, we had, when we came to settle with them, to pay
them at the increased price.
3889. You have already mentioned that; but, assuming that the
fishermen would agree to it,-and I have no doubt you could
compel them to agree to it if there was a bargain to that effect,-
would it not be a more reasonable and wholesome arrangement
altogether for both parties?-We would certainly be willing to
agree to it, and I think the other fish-curers would, and take their
chance.
3890. In that case you would take your chance of rise or fall in the
market?-Yes.
3891. And there would be none of the fishermen but what would
have some idea, as the season went on, of how much his earnings
would be?-So they would; but if our fishermen had made such an
arrangement, and they came to know that other men were getting
higher price from other curers at the end of the season, it would
make our men dissatisfied, and we would have to throw our
agreement aside. If we did not do that, our men would leave us,
and not fish for us another year.
3892. Do you mean that that arrangement could not be entered into
by any individual fish-curer unless there was a general
arrangement to do so among the curers in the islands?-Yes; the
whole of the curers would require to agree to it.
3893. But, would it not be more advantageous all parties, on the
whole? I think you say that in your opinion it would be?-We
would be very well pleased to have a fixed agreement at the
beginning of the season, and very well pleased also to pay the men
altogether in cash when we settled with them. In that way we
would keep clear of bad debts.
3894. Would not such an arrangement obviate the objection you
have to a change on the ground that the fisherman's exertions
would be less if he had no inducement to work,-because, if that
arrangement were carried out, the fisherman would be induced to
use all his exertions in order to get as large a take of fish as
possible?-He has the same inducement now.
3895. That is so; but at present he does not know until the end of
the season how much he is to get for his fishing during the year?-
They are generally satisfied that they will get the full value of the
article.
3896. But the policy of the Legislature in some other departments
seems to be, that the working man shall know week by week how
much his earnings are, and how much he is spending upon goods:
could not that be done here?-No; it is impossible here, because
one week, or one fortnight, or perhaps three weeks, may elapse in
the summer when a man does not earn one sixpence.
3897. But if there was some system of paying fixed price of so
much per cran or so much per cwt. for fish delivered, the
fisherman would be able to calculate more nearly what his income
was going to be during the year than he is now, and be able to
regulate his expenditure accordingly?-The price of fish has
varied very little for many years, and a fisherman can know pretty
nearly what he is earning. The following is a statement of the
prices that have been paid for the last six years; from which you
will see that the variation has been extremely small.
PRICES of Fresh Fish paid at Burra, compared with
the Rates paid at other Stations in Shetland, for
six years, 1865 to 1870 inclusive.
YEAR BURRA ISLANDS OTHER PLACES
Spring Summer Summer
Ling Cod Ling Cod Ling Cod
s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d. s. d.
1865 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 0 7 6 6 6
1866 8 0 7 6 8 0 7 6 8 6 7 6
1867 6 0 7 0 6 0 6 0 6 0 6 0
1868 6 0 6 6 6 6 5 0 6 6 5 0
1869 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6 7 0 6 6
1870 7 0 6 6 7 3 6 0 7 3 6 0
3898. Then, upon the whole of that matter we have been speaking
of, you don't think the introduction of a system similar to that
which prevails in the Wick herring fishing would be beneficial
either to the one side or the other, although you would be willing
to adopt it?-We would be quite ready to adopt it.
[Page 95]
3899. But, as a matter of opinion, you don't think it would be
advantageous?-As far as my own opinion goes, I do not think it
would be in any way advantageous either to the fish-curers or to
the fishermen.
3900. You have a few sentences in your statement with regard to
the hosiery trade, in which you say you don't believe it would pay
the expenses and servants wages: is that your opinion?-Yes; if we
were to buy for ready money.
3901. What is your reason for forming that opinion?-The people
get so much higher prices for their articles when they take goods,
that we could not buy for ready money and compete with the
people in the trade.
3902. Do you deal in the same goods as those merchants who deal
in hosiery?-Yes, to a certain extent, but not to such a large extent
as them. They keep goods for the purpose of exchanging for
hosiery, while we only keep some for supplying the fishermen.
3903. Are you in a position to say whether your prices for tea and
soft goods are higher or lower than the prices of the persons who
purchase hosiery?-I think tea and groceries and other things, sell
for very much the same all over town.
3904. Is it the same thing with soft goods and cotton?-Yes, I
think they are very much the same.
3905. If hosiery were paid for in cash, do you not think the people
might come to your shop and buy goods to greater advantage than
they get them for at present?-I suppose they would go to any
place in town where they got the goods best and cheapest. I have
said in my statement, we would be quite ready to buy the hosiery
ourselves for cash; but I believe we would get a very small portion
of the trade, because, when the people were getting perhaps 1s. in
cotton or in other things for an article, we could not afford to give
them any more than 9d. or 10d. in cash, and therefore they would
not come to us.
3906. But suppose they were to get 9d. or 10d. in cash, would they
not be able to buy their cotton goods to greater advantage?-I
don't think it. They could not go to the hosiers' shops and buy
cotton goods marked at 1s. for anything less than that. They might
perhaps get a small discount, but it would be very little.
3907. Does it not appear to you that the practice of paying in kind
must raise the prices of the goods that are so given in exchange for
hosiery?-There are a great many people both here and throughout
the country engaged in the trade; and when the girls have articles
to sell, I suppose they find out the shops where they can make the
best bargain, and go there, so that there is competition amongst the
hosiery merchants as well as in other trades.
3908. Do you think it is the case that the profit charged upon
drapery goods in Lerwick is greater than it is in other places, in
consequence of the practice of purchasing hosiery with goods?-I
am unable to give an opinion upon that, because I cannot say what
are the profits upon goods elsewhere; but I believe the difference
between our prices and the prices charged by the hosiers for the
same class of goods would be found to be very little if it was
examined into.
3909. You are not aware that you sell cheaper, than the merchants
who purchase hosiery?-I don't think we sell very much cheaper
than they do.
3910. Do you think you sell any cheaper?-Not very much.
3911. Did the obligation which was entered into eight years ago by
the Burra men refer to the home fishing only, or was there any
obligation in it with regard to the Faroe fishing too?-I think it
referred to the home fishing chiefly.
3912. And not to the Faroe fishing?-It speaks for itself.
3913. Can you show it to me?-I think I can. I have not seen it for
several years, but it must be somewhere in the office. If I can get
it, I will be ready to show it.
3914. Is it not the case that the supply of men for the Faroe fishing
is now generally sufficient without any such obligation, and that
sometimes there is an excess in the supply of men who are willing
to go to that fishing?-No; on the contrary, the men are very
scarce and it is difficult to get the smacks manned up. I question
very much whether we shall be able to get them all manned up this
year.
3915. What is the cause of their reluctance to go to that fishing?-
They made a bad fishing last year, and they are very unwilling to
go again.
3916. Did the liberty money or fines which were imposed in Burra
apply at all to tenants refusing to go to the Faroe fishing?-I think
not. These fines were imposed with the view of getting the sons to
assist their parents who were in debt, and to enable them to pay
their rents, by making their earnings come through our hands.
When the people went elsewhere, their earnings did not come
through our hands, and we had not that check upon them.
3917. Are you quite certain the fines had nothing to do with the
Faroe fishing at all?-It is many years since that I can scarcely say,
and the Faroe fishing has not been carried on for many years.
Perhaps that attempt was made by us about the time when the
Faroe fishing commenced; but it was with the view of keeping the
sons at home, and to enable their fathers to remain in the islands
and to pay their rents, because the sons usually went away in
summer, and remained a burden on their parents during the winter.
3918. Do you remember whether at any time there was a proposal
on the part of the Burra islanders to rent the island from the
landlord directly?-I heard there was such a proposal.
3919. In what form was the proposal made?-It never came
through my hands; but I understand the men wrote to Mr. Mack, in
Edinburgh, who acted for the proprietors, offering him a higher
rent than we had paid before.
3920. How long ago was that?-I could not condescend on the
number of years. It was about the time that our tack was out.
3921. That would be about the time when the obligation you spoke
of was suggested or entered into?-I think it was perhaps about the
same time.
3922. That offer was refused?-Yes. Mr. Mack knew very well,
that while some of the tenants would pay their rent punctually,
others, when left to themselves, would have nothing to pay it
with when the rent time came round, and of course he would
not treat with them. He thought it better to get a fixed sum,
payable half-yearly, which the tenants could not guarantee him.
The rent of Burra is paid by us half-yearly, one half at Whitsunday
and the other half at Martinmas; while the tenants, of course, if
they were left at liberty, would only pay once a year.
3923. Is it the usual practice in Shetland to pay rent only once a
year?-Yes; to pay it at Martinmas,
3924. That arises from the fact that the tenants generally depend
upon the produce of their fishing for the money with which to pay
their rent?-Yes; they realize their earnings about that time.
3925. Is it the case that the inducement to your firm to lease Burra
in the way you have explained, was mainly for securing to
yourselves the service of the fishermen?-We had had a lease of
Burra for a very long time, and had transactions with the people all
along, and they were due us a very considerable sum. They are not
due us so much now, but at that time they were due us a very
heavy sum; and if we had given up the tack, much of that money
would have been lost. That was one inducement to us to renew
our lease.
3926. But did you expect to recoup yourselves merely by the rent
payable by the fishermen, or by their being obliged to fish for
you?-By their being able to pay their debts through the fishing.
3927. In other words, they would not have been so likely to have
continued to fish for you if you had not remained the tacksmen?-
If we had not remained the tacksmen, the island would have been
let on tack to some one else, and they would have taken our place.
3928. Do you mean that a lease would probably have [Page 96]
been given to some other fish-merchant?-Yes; there is
no inducement to any one else to take a tack of Burra.
3929. Is that because it is the general practice in Shetland for the
landlord or the tacksman to be entitled to receive the fish?-No;
but the tack-duty of Burra is so near the gross rental, that there
would be no inducement to a person to take the island on tack, and
to collect the rents and pay them over to the proprietor.
3930. You say that very few people in Burra engage in the home
fishing now?-Yes; comparatively few.
3931. So that the Burra islands cannot be so profitable an
investment for your firm as formerly?-It is not.
3932. Does the gross rental from it exceed the tack-duty by any
considerable sum?-No; only by a very small sum.
3933. How much?-Unless I had the rental here, I could not speak
definitely; but I could show you the gross rental of Burra, and I can
tell you the tack-duty afterwards.
3934. Can you do the same with regard to Gossaburgh?-Yes.
3935. Is there any practice in the home fishing of selling the
smaller fish without passing them through the books; that is, the
small fish caught near the shore at Scalloway, or elsewhere on the
coast?-There are haddocks and small fish caught there; and
through the winter the men just take them into Scalloway every
day as they catch them, and sell them for goods or money as they
choose.
3936. These transactions don't pass through your books?-No; we
don't see what fish of that kind have been purchased, except from
the factor's book at the end of the year. We then see how much
fish he has purchased from all quarters.
3937. The factor purchases these fish, and pays for them in such
goods as the men may want at the time?-Yes; on the spot.
3938. These are separate transactions, and are settled at once?-
Yes.
3939. In that case, is the price for the fish higher or lower than in
any of your other dealings with the fishermen?-I think that,
within the last few years it has generally been less, where they
settled at once, than it came to be at the end of the season, when
we came to arrange the men's accounts.
3940. How does that happen?-Because generally at the end of the
season the price comes up, and people buying fish on chance are
not inclined to give the same price for them which they would give
at the end of the season, when they know what they are worth. If
we buy fish from the men just now, we cannot tell what they will
realize in summer, when they are dry and sent to market.
3941. Then, if the fish-merchant were to pay for all his fish as they
were delivered, would that have a tendency to make him more
cautious about giving a high price to his fishermen?-I think it
would.
3942. Do you think that men curing their own fish would be at a
great disadvantage as compared with large curers?-I think they
would, because they have no means for curing.
3943. You are aware, I suppose, that that is one of the statements
made by the fishermen, when they come forward with complaints
about the existing system: that they want to have liberty to cure
their own fish, and dispose of them in the market as they please?-
I have heard so. For some time, in Dunrossness, the men did cure
their own fish, but they never could make them in a marketable
state. They were always objectionable, and they never could bring
so high a price in the market as fish prepared by regular curers.
If each boat's crew were to cure their own fish, they would be
at a great disadvantage, because they have not the means of
curing them properly: they have no vats, no covers, no mats, and
no qualified curers for the purpose. They would likely employ
children for that purpose, and members of their own family.
3944. When the men cure their own fish, how is that generally
done?-I suppose they cure them in turns, and turn them out on
the beach until they are dried. They are often very insufficiently
salted, or over-salted; and when they are dry, they are not fit for
the market.
3945. In your operations you have a complete apparatus for the
purpose?-Yes; and we require qualified men-people who
understand the process of curing-to attend to them.
3946. Therefore, in your opinion, a fisherman curing his own fish
would realize a much less price for them than you could give
him?-Yes; and very often they would be altogether in an
unmerchantable state.
3947. You are still factor on the Simbister estate?-Yes.
3948. Part of that estate, in the neighbourhood of Channerwick,
was at one time let to Robert Mouat?-Yes.
3949. I believe he had right under his lease to receive delivery of
all the fish caught by the tenants?-No. The lease expressly states,
that if the fishermen deliver their fish to him, he is bound to pay
them the current price of the country. The expression is, 'If the
fishermen deliver them;' that is all that is said about it.
3950. Is the lease in your hands?-Yes.
3951. You will show it to me, in order that I may take an excerpt
of that clause?-Yes.
3952. Do you remember the case of a John Leask, a fisherman
at Channerwick, whom Mouat had threatened to turn out of his
farm, and who came to you some time about March 1870 in
consequence of that threat?-I don't remember that. I don't know
the man; but it is possible he may have come to me. There were
two or three of them who come to me complaining about their
treatment by Mouat. I showed them the clause in the tack, and
told them that if they fished to him he was bound to pay them the
current price of the country, but that I saw nothing in the tack to
compel them to deliver their fish to him.
3953. Were you aware that for many years previously the tenants
in that district had been under the idea that they were bound to
fish for the tacksman?-I had no concern with it before I got the
factorship, three years ago. It is only three years since I was
appointed factor.
3954. Who was your predecessor?-Mr. Bruce generally settled
with the tenants himself, or Mr. Spence.
3955. Is it consistent with your own knowledge that there was such
an understanding upon that part of the Simbister estate?-The men
told me that Mouat insisted on getting their fish; that is all I know
about it.
3956. You don't know of it yourself, except from these
applications which were made to you by the men?-No; I had
nothing to do with Mouat or his tack previously.
3957. Did you communicate with Mouat in consequence of the
statements the fishermen made to you?-I don't remember that I
communicated with him in writing, but I may have told him that
the men were complaining about being forced to fish to him.
3958. Did you also tell him that he was not entitled to require them
to fish to him?-It is quite possible I told him that, but I had very
few conversations with him on the subject.
3959. If there was such an understanding among the men, I
suppose it would be naturally enough accounted for by the fact
that in former times such obligations were usual or universal in
Shetland?-Perhaps it would be.
3960. I presume such obligations were universal formerly?-I
think that formerly more of the proprietors cured their own fish
than is the case now.
3961. But in the old times it was part of the tenant's duty to deliver
his fish to his landlord?-Yes.
3962. And I fancy, that although you say fishermen are generally
free, yet any complaints that are made about them being bound
arise from the remains of that old system still prevailing?-
Perhaps so.
3963. There is no doubt that there was such an understanding and
such an obligation formerly?-No.
3964. And in one or two cases there is such an obligation still?-
Yes; but I think there are very few of the proprietors now who
have any personal concern [Page 97] with their fishings. I think
there are only two or three of them.
3965. Is Mr Bruce of Sumburgh one of the parties to whom you
refer?-Yes.
3966. Does he purchase fish from the tenants on his estate?-He
purchases fish over all. I suppose the free men can come to him
and offer their fish as well as his own tenants.
3967. Does any other proprietor in Shetland deal in fish in the
same way?-I think Mr. Grierson takes some part of his tenants'
fish, but only a part.
3968. Are there any others?-I think in Unst, although the
proprietors are not actually fish-curers, yet their tenants fish to
parties whom they appoint.,
3969. Do you refer to Major Cameron?-Yes; and Edmonstone
too. Spence & Co. are the principal fish-curers in Unst. They are
lessees of Major Cameron's property, and, I think they receive fish
from Mr. Edmonstone's tenants also.
. Is there anything further you wish to say with regard to the
fishings?-With reference to Burra, some years ago there was a
letter written to Mr. Mack, Edinburgh, who had the management
of the property for the Misses Scott, and a copy of it was sent to us
without a signature. It was a letter remarking, very strongly on the
management of Burra at the time; and as there may be something
said about it, I think it better to read it-
'COPY LETTER to Mr. Mack, dated the 5th April 1869.
'James S. Mack, Esq.
'MY DEAR SIR,-Having had occasion to visit Burra officially a
few days ago, it was suggested to me to bring under your notice
some of those grievances of which the people complain, so that on
any renewal of the lease of the Islands taking place, you might be
able stipulate more advantageously for the poor people.
'From the statements submitted to me, it would appear-
'1st, That every householder is bound to pay one pound sterling
annually for every son who, being a common fisherman, ships in
any Faroe-going fishing smack not belonging to the lessees or the
agent of the North Sea Company, otherwise he must remove from
the island or expel any such son from his home.
'2d, That every tenant is bound to uphold, at his own expense, his
house and offices, and whenever required to remove, to leave
them in a state of good repair without any indemnification.
'3d, That every fisherman is bound to deliver his fishings to the
lessees at such a price as they may be disposed to give. While
the price given is never <less> than one shilling per
hundredweight <below> the average paid for green fish in the
Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings
per cran below the market price is a common thing.
'4th, That all oysters dredged must be delivered to the lessees
at Scalloway, under the penalty of expulsion; from house and
land; while the price paid in <goods> is one shilling per hundred,
other merchants paying in money <two shillings and sixpence>
per hundred. To evade this obligation a regular system of
deception is practised most offensive to the moral sense, and, as a
consequence, few of the oysters go into the hands of the lessees.
'5th, And that every person on the Islands is bound not to sell any
article to a neighbour, under the penalty of instant expulsion
from the island. If, for example, you were living on the isle, any
fisherman who sold you a tusk or cod incurred the penalty of
expulsion. And as the system of barter is common in Shetland, if
any woman got in exchange for her hosiery tea or sugar or meal
from any merchant-as the lessees purchase no hosiery-she
exposes her family to the loss of house and land and expulsion
from the island if she is known to sell any of the goods she has
received in return for her handiwork to any neighbour, however
needful or anxious such neighbour may be to purchase for money
the article thus obtained.
'These, as represented to me, form some of the grounds of
complaint against the system adopted and enforced by the lessees,
and, as grievances, they are felt all the more keenly because of the
perfect contrast which is found to exist between the Burra people
and surrounding Islanders.
'In Trondra, under the hands of your lessees as factors, the people
can sell their labour and their goods to any buyer, so being
they pay the stipulated rent.
'In Hildesay, Luija, and Havera the tenants fish, cure, and sell
to the proprietor or others at the average price of the county,
paying their rents in money.
'The natural result of all this is the production of a feeling of
bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees
themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants
under them.
'Not only are the obligations under which the Burra people bend,
introducing discord into families, restraining the energies of the
fishermen, and tending to a deeply rooted aversion towards the
lessees and their service, but producing systems of chicanery and
deceit subversive of moral principle and destructive of all efforts
in the proper training of the young.
'Having had these matters forced upon my attention, I am
constrained to yield to the pressure, and submit them to your
consideration-notwithstanding my great personal respect for
the lessees-as requested, and that, in the hope that if you can
now or hereafter mitigate the evil under which the tenants groan,
in connection with the renewal of the lease, should such be
contemplated, you will cordially do so, and thus confer upon them
a lasting benefit.
'Before closing, I may add that a suggestion was made to submit
the case to the consideration of the Fishery Board; but, as the
constitution and functions of that board are unknown to me, I
have deferred until obtaining any suggestion you may be pleased
to make for the future guidance of the poor people who, through
me, now solicit your sympathy and aid.
'Having fulfilled my promise to write you, I have to express the
hope that this confidential communication may receive your
kind consideration, while any suggestion you may make for the
improvement of the circumstances of the people will be cordially
welcomed by.'
That letter was sent to us to report upon, and we made some notes
on it at the time, which I may read also-
'NOTES on a Letter of Complaint addressed to, Mr. Mack,
S.S.C.,
Edinburgh, dated 5th April 1869, as to the Management of the
Burra Islands under the present Tack.
'The writer of this letter, if he is stating honestly the reports that he
has heard on his visits to Burra, seems to have considered it quite
unnecessary to inquire whether they were true or false before
committing them to paper; and apparently from a desire to make
out a case of oppression, he has been ready to receive all that
could help to it without separating the chaff from the wheat.
'The first head is, that every tenant is bound to pay £1 per
annum for their sons who do not fish in vessels belonging to
the tacksmen, or those of the Fishery Company under their
management. In answer to this, it always been felt a great
hardship to pay rent year after year for old men who were deeply
indebted and earning little or nothing, but who had grown-up sons
living, at home in idleness all winter and going out of the Islands
to fish to strangers in summer. In order to get them to assist their
parents, intimation was given at the commencement of the tack
that such a charge would be made; but the result is, nothing has
been recovered from them, and several of the Lerwick fishing
vessels are manned up year after year with the best fishermen in
Burra, and their fathers remain hopelessly in debt. Perhaps Mr
Mack's correspondent would say, rather than impose such a
condition on the young men, we should roup up their fathers and
turn them out of the Islands as paupers, when the sons would be
compelled by law to assist them?
'The second charge is, that the tenants are bound to uphold their
houses at their own expense. This complaint, unlike the others, is
quite correct, but the obligation is not felt by the tenants to be very
oppressive. [Page 98] Had the proprietors to pay the expense the
case would be different, and this, added to the public burdens,
would pretty well exhaust the whole rents. Such things, however,
are never considered by would-be philanthropists; and if matters
are made easy for the tenants, landlords may starve. Burra is not
the only place in Shetland, or out of it, where tenants are bound to
uphold their own houses.
'Third, The tenants hold their farms on the express condition that
they shall deliver their fish to the factors; but it is quite untrue
that the price allowed 'is never <less> than one shilling per
hundredweight below the average price paid for green fish in the
Islands; and in the case of herring, not less than five shillings per
cran below the market price is a common thing.' It is so far from
the truth as scarcely to be worth denial; and if the author of this
statement had been desirous to get at facts, he could without
difficulty have discovered that his informant, was practising a
deception on him, and that the Burra people had not this evil to
groan under.
'The lessees have no hesitation in referring to the tenants,
themselves and to all other parties in the locality to whom the
circumstances are known. (See annexed note of the prices paid in
Burra and throughout Shetland for the last four years.) As to the
obligation on the tenants to deliver their fish to the factors-if they
were free to cure and sell as they chose, who would advance them,
with boats and fishing materials, and support their families during
the progress of the fishing? and would the proprietors get the rents
paid half-yearly as at present? or would they not rather find the
principal part of it standing as arrears in their books at the end of
the first year of freedom? And in the event of a short fishing or
bad crop (both frequent occurrences), without any one to assist
them till the return of better seasons, is it not evident, at least to
those who know about tenants in fishing districts, that the Burra
people would soon be little better than paupers?
'Take the last year as an instance, when the heavy debt due by
the tenants to the lessees was increased upwards of £200.
'Mr. Mack's correspondent should suggest a remedy for all these
evils, to be inserted in the next lease; or, as he seems to hint
that the Fishery Board may be induced to interfere and make
things straight now, it might be well to place the Islands under his
management for a year or two by way of trial. The lessees could
have no objections if the balances due to them were paid.
'The oyster fishing is the fourth grievance, and the statements in it
are as little in accordance with facts as the rest. A few years ago,
when oysters came to be asked after for export, the scaaps in
Burra being of limited extent, an attempt was made to preserve
them for old men and others in the quarter who were unable to
prosecute the spring fishings; but in the course of a year or two
people came from Scalloway and other places and carried them
away in boat-loads. Seeing this, the factors told the Burra folks as
far as possible to secure the oysters for themselves, and they have
since been selling them in large quantities here and there without
let or hindrance, and it is said the supply is now about exhausted.
The tack conveys right to the whole fishings of the islands; and
had the matter been of any importance, the lessees might have
interdicted strangers, and limited the fishing for the benefit of the
tenants as first intended; but this cause of offence seems to be set
at rest now for the remainder of the lease.
'The fifth statement appears to be, that people living in the Islands,
not fishing themselves (suppose ministers or the schoolmasters, as
these are the only parties in the Islands no way connected with the
fishings), cannot get fish to purchase for their own use. This is
quite absurd; no such restriction was ever heard of or imagined,
either by proprietors; tacksmen, or tenants.
'And next, as to tea sellers, had not the Excise interfered to put
down the practice, every other house in Burra would have been a
shop in a small way to sell, not only tea, but other goods of a less
harmless description that had not always passed through a
custom-house. The tacksmen plead guilty to using their best
endeavours to assist in shutting up these shops, but they deny that
they have ever interfered with the Burra people directly or
indirectly in the sale of their cattle, hosiery, or produce of any
kind, except fish. Nor have they ever placed a shop in the Islands
for sake of the tenants custom, as they might have done, but left
them free to sell such produce and obtain their supplies where they
liked.
'Trondra is referred to as a free island; but does Mr. Mack's
correspondent suppose the people are in better circumstances on
that account? And is he aware of the amount of arrears due to the
landlord? the tenants' earnings, in most cases, being spent as fast
as they are made. If the tenants in the other islands mentioned are
free also, it is not generally understood to be the case, and it
happens at this very time two tenants from these <free> islands
have taken farms, and are about to remove to the land of
bondage-Burra.'
3971. Is it the case that no other shop than yours is allowed in
Burra?-Yes.
3972. You say that if shops were allowed there, every other
house would be used as a shop, and every person would set up
for selling tea and other goods?-Yes. What I referred to there
was, that the Burra people were in the habit of bringing home a
quantity of uncustomed goods from Faroe, and going round the
country and selling them elsewhere. We set our face against
that, and endeavoured to put it down.
3973. Has there been a tendency to that in the Faroe fishing?-Not
lately; because some of the people were severely punished for it.
3974. But formerly there was a tendency that way?-At first there
was a good deal done in that way, but now I don't think there is
anything.
3975. You are not aware whether there is any smuggling in the
Shetland Islands at present?-Two or three years ago, there were
some of the crews severely punished for that, and I don't think
there is any smuggling going on now.
3976. That was one of your reasons for prohibiting shops in
Burra?-Yes, it was one reason.
3977. But the effect of that prohibition is that the people have to
go to Scalloway for goods?-They can go out of the island and get
their goods where they like.
3978. Have you information at present from which you are able to
state what proportion of the Burra islanders keep accounts with
your shop in Scalloway?-Not at present. Their names may be in
the books, but they may get very small supplies from us, and they
can get supplies from other people as well.
3979. There are other shops in Scalloway?-Yes; there are several
other shops there, and the men may take some goods from us and
some from others.
3980. You say that now the oyster-beds there are really
exhausted?-Yes. Oysters were got in pretty large quantities in
Burra for a number of years, but now they are exhausted; they
were taken up in such quantities and sent away.
3981. Are there any oysters got at Scalloway?-Very few. You
can get a hundred or half a hundred occasionally.
3982. Are the men bound to deliver to your firm what oysters they
take up?-No; they have not been doing it.
3983. Then they are free to dispose of the oysters to any person
they like?-They are free to dispose of them, but there are so few
to get now that it is no object to go in for that.
3984. Have there been no disputes about oysters there?-Not that I
know of. The Scalloway people carried away a great many oysters
from Burra.
3985. You have prepared a note showing the number of families in
Burra, and also the total sums paid in cash to your fishermen at
settlement at your other stations besides Whalsay?-Yes. The
number of families in Burra is 108. There are 318 males on the
island, and 867 females-in all 685. I may mention also that
[Page 99] of the Burra men who go to the fishing, in summer in
smacks, 19 went in vessels belonging to Hay & Co., and 73, in
vessels belonging to other owners. The cash paid to fishermen at
settlement at other stations besides Whalsay was as follows
1870, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . £138 19 3
" Dunrossness . . 521 13 111/2
" North Roe . . 539 9 01/2
1871, Fetlar & E. Yell, . . 310 6 61/2
" Dunrossness . . 395 19 3
" North Roe . . 757 17 01/2
In the statement which I gave in, I stated that the arrears of
land-rent due on the Simbister estate were £57; but since the
statement was prepared, that sum has been lessened by £8,
which has been paid.
3986. Do you pay your balances to the Whalsay men by cheques
on the Union Bank?-Not altogether. To some extent we pay
them in notes and gold and silver.
3987. In 1870, you gave cheques to the amount of in sums of £5
and upwards?-Yes.
3988. Below that sum they would be paid in cash?-Yes. In the
past year I gave cheques to the amount of £465.
3989. Some of these men, I suppose, would leave their money at
the bank?-I daresay they did.
3990. Is there anything else that occurs to you to state with regard
to the fishings?-Nothing.
3991. You are now out of the trade of engaging men for the
Greenland whale fishery?-We are just about out of it.
3992. You have intimated to your correspondents in the south that
you are not to act for them any longer in that matter?-Yes.
3993. Your commission there was 21/2 per cent. upon the wages
and oil-money of each man, and that commission was paid to you
by the shipowners?-Yes.
3994. Do you consider that that was an inadequate
remuneration for the trouble you had with the men?-Yes. It was
not only an inadequate remuneration, but we were supposed to be
taking advantage of the men in settling with them, and that has led
us to give up the agency. It was thought that we did not actually
settle with them in cash, but that we gave them goods for their
wages
3995. You have added to your written statement on this subject an
abstract of your dealings for the last three years with the men
engaged in some of these whaling vessels, which shows that
during that period the average amount of wages and oil-money
paid annually to each man was £11, 13s. 6d.; the supplies given to
the man before sailing and to his family during his absence were
on an average £1, 7s. 2d-leaving a balance of £10, 6s. 4d, which
was paid in cash?-Yes. That balance was actually paid to the
men in cash, in presence of the marine superintendent, by one of
our clerks. Perhaps I may be allowed to refer to the report made
by Mr Hamilton to the Board of Trade on this subject, which was
communicated to the previous Commissioners on Truck, and
which is printed in the appendix to their report.
3996. Have you any explanation to make with regard to that
report?-The only explanation I have to make is to contradict
publicly the whole statements contained in it; and I hope the result
of your examination here will prove to the author of report, and to
others, that they should not hastily jump at conclusions, and
condemn people unheard.
3997. Do you contradict the whole of the statements in that report,
without exception?-Yes, I contradict them publicly, and I say
that, they are not in accordance with the facts.
3998. The report says: 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in
debt to some shopkeeper:' is that incorrect?-It is not the case that
the whole fishermen in the islands are in debt.
3999. Is it not the case that the majority of the fishermen employed
by you are in debt to your shop?-It is not. In the case of Whalsay
alone, I paid £1374 to the men when I settled with them. None of
them are in debt, and they have usually large sums of money to
get.
4000. That is to say, they are not in debt in December when they
are settled with?-Yes; and during the next year, if they have
occasion to get supplies from the shop while the fishing is going
on, they get them, but they are not in debt, because they are getting
fish daily; and their account, although not settled, is running in
their favour. We would probably be in their debt if we were to
settle with them at any time during the season.
4001. But before the spring fishing begins, do they not generally
run up an amount of debt at the merchants shops?-Not generally.
I think the men generally take money to pay for anything they
want.
4002. Is it the case that cash payments at these shops are more
frequent about this season of the year, when the men have had
their settlements lately over, than they are subsequently?-I think
so, because they have money to pay for the articles they buy.
4003. Will the returns made by your shopkeepers of sales at the
shops, or the accounts kept with the fishermen, show that?-The
shopman's cash-book would show what the daily drawings were.
4004. Do you mean the daily drawings in cash?-Yes, the money.
4005. And you think the daily drawings in cash are probably larger
at this season than at other times?-I should think so, because the
people have more money in their hands.
4006. Then, if there is any truth in this statement, it must apply, in
ordinary seasons, to the period after the fishing has begun?-Yes,
it must apply to that; but the statement Mr. Hamilton makes, as to
paying seamen's wages, is utterly untrue.
4007. It is true, I suppose, that agents are employed in Lerwick to
secure the services of men for ships in the Greenland fishery?-
Yes.
4008. Then the portion of that sentence which, I presume, you
deny, is that the agents get little direct profit from their agency?-
No; they do get little direct profit-only 21/2 per cent. on the wages
and oil-money of the men.
4009. These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are
proprietors of land themselves, or act land agents for others: is that
so?-Yes, that is true.
4010. There are only three or four such agents in Lerwick-
yourselves, while you continued to act in that way, Mr. Leask, Mr.
Tait who has now retired, and Mr Tulloch, of A. Laurenson &
Co.?-Yes; Mr Tait has been succeeded, I believe, by Messrs.
Leisk and Sandison. There are no others that I know of.
4011. Mr. Hamilton says: 'The owners merely find the money to
pay the wages of the men engaged. The agents manage everything
else. The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment
for those who are in their debt.' Is it the case, as a rule, that the
men engaged for these Greenland voyages have been in debt?-
No. It has been so difficult for many years now to get the men
forward; that we have been very willing to take any man who
would come, without regard to what part of the country he
belonged to.
4012. But are the men so engaged frequently in debt to the
shopkeeper who engages them?-No. I think you will see that
from the copy of the letter which we wrote to one of the
shipowners.
4013. Is it not true in point of fact, as stated here, that the agents
supply the men's outfits?-We go to the custom-house with the
men after they have been engaged, and we pay them their first
month's advance in cash, and that first month's advance is repaid
us by the owners of the ship. We cannot open an account in our
books with any of these men unless we take the risk of the debt,
because the terms of their agreement are that when they come
back from their voyage, nothing is to be deducted from their wages
except that first month's advance, and their monthly note, if they
have one.
4014. But, as a matter of fact, are these men supplied with their
outfit by the agent who engages them?-The men are quite at
liberty to take their money, and get their outfit where they like.
[Page 100]
4015. Still, as a matter of fact, they are supplied with their outfit
by the agent, are they not?-No. We have supplied them to a very
small extent; the extract I have produced from our books shows
the full amount we have supplied them with, not only for their
outfit, but for their whole supplies during the season.
4016. Then, during the absence of these men do their families
come to your shop frequently for supplies?-We cannot give them
any supplies unless they have their monthly note, and if we give
them any supplies, then we credit that note. If a man leaves a
monthly note to supply his family during his absence with one-half
of his wages, then his family can get supplied to that extent.
4017. You supply them, if they wish, to the amount of that note?-
Yes, either cash or in goods. Many of the people, if they are living
in the country, take these monthly notes and hand them over to
some of their friends in the country, who transmit them to Lerwick
and get the money for them.
4018. In that case, these notes are not taken out in the shape of
goods from your shop?-No.
4019. Are you aware whether these monthly notes are ever taken
out in name of the agents?-It is very possible they may be, when
the men want that to be done.
4020. Has that occurred in your dealings with them?-I think so.
In some cases we get the monthly notes, and pay the value of them
to the families as they become due, either in money or in goods.
4021. Whether is it more frequently in money or in goods that you
have paid these notes to their families?-Some of the members of
their families come into town with the monthly notes when they
are due and they get the money.
4022. Or goods?-Or goods. If they want anything before the
monthly note is due, they get goods, but it is very seldom that that
is done. However, the result of our transactions with these men
appears from the excerpt I have produced, which shows that the
advances made did not come to 30s, while at settling we paid the
men upwards of £10 each, in cash, taking them as a whole.
4023. When that sum of £10 is paid to them, is there a standing
account against them at any of your shops?-No; the men are quite
clear. For instance, in the case of the 'Labrador' for the past year,
the men's wages and oil-money came, to £221, 7s. 4d., and we had
not an account standing against any of them in our books.
4024. Do you state that in all cases referred to in that excerpt from
your books, the sums stated as having been paid in cash were paid
in full, and that at the time when they were paid there was no
account due to your firm by the men?-Yes; there was not one
farthing due when these sums were paid.
4025. Because it might very well happen that you had an account
against them, although the cash was paid at the time in presence of
the superintendent?-I understand what you mean, but the
accounts will show that the men were all clear at the date of the
payment.
4026. Is that at the date when the final releases were signed?-No.
The final release is only signed when they get their second
payment of oil-money. The second payment of oil-money is
comparatively trifling, only a few shillings to each man; and they
have before then been paid up their whole earnings to within 10s.
or 15s. or 20s.
4027. Does the abstract account you have given in apply to the
state of things at the date of the final discharge of the men?-I
think it is taken from our books after the account of each ship was
closed, except in the case of 1871, because we had not got their
second payment of oil-money for that year, when the excerpt was
made.
4028. Are all the accounts closed for 1870?-Yes.
4029. You mean that the men have got payment of the whole of
their oil-money, including the second payment, for that year?-
Yes; and we have now got the whole of their oil-money for 1871
also.
4030. Has the final release for 1871 be signed?-I suppose so; but
I don't settle with the men personally. It is one of our clerks who
does so. The part of the report to the Board of Trade which I wish
particularly to refer to is this: 'It is true that the Board of Trade
rules provide that "the balance to be paid to the man is the balance
due on account of his voyage, deducting only such advances and
allotments, as shall have been stipulated for in the agreement; and
the value of such stores as may have been supplied to him
personally during the voyage by the master." But no time is fixed
for settlement, and the consequence is that it is the interest of the
agent to delay it until he gets the man in debt to him again; and
when he does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him
before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all
back to the agent at once to whom he is indebted in an equal or
greater amount; and I need hardly point out that it is clearly most
important in the interests of the man, that he should not merely
nominally, but actually receive his wages in cash, and be able to
spend them as he likes.' That part of the report is not correct.'
4031. Is it not the case that the releases of the seamen are very
frequently signed many months after the ship has arrived and
discharged her men?-I have explained the reason for that in my
statement. The men always go home whenever the ship arrives,
and come back to settle as they find it convenient for themselves.
4032. But is it the case that it is often six or eight months
afterwards before the settlement is made?-It is the case that the
owners don't perhaps send down account of the oil that has been
boiled until this time of the year, and sometimes after this time;
but we pay the men before then nearly up to what we suppose the
amount of oil will be. Any small sum that is left out is sometimes
not paid until the ship comes out again in the following year.
4033. The time for engaging men for the Greenland voyage is in
February or March?-Yes; in the end of February or beginning of
March.
4034. And you state that in your business, as agents, there is no
account running with any of these men during the period after
the termination of the voyage, and before the last payment of
oil-money?-There is no account running with them from the
time when they settle finally until they engage again.
4035. Then, at the engagement, a new account is generally
opened for the outfit?-No; we have nothing to enter against
them when they engage again, but just the money we pay them
at the custom-house. We charge them with the month's advance
which we pay them there; that is the only entry we have against
them. In one or two cases there may be more-perhaps a few
shillings; but in the case of the 'Labrador,' which I have already
referred to, we had not a sixpence marked against any man in the
vessel.
4036. What is the main reason for taking the advance notes in
name of the shipping agents?-I suppose the men prefer it,
because it is just as convenient for them to hand the advance notes
to the shipping agents as to any other one in Lerwick.
4037. But if the advance note is taken in the name of any of the
man's friends, that would entitle them to get payment of so much
of his wages from the shipping agent?-Yes; but the advance note
must be addressed to an agent, because the owners of the ship are
here to cash it, and the agent must pay it to somebody, either to the
man's wife, or to any other one that she transfers it to.
4038. But what I asked was, whether these advance notes were
not taken payable, not to wife, but to the shipping agent,
himself?-I think not; it is either to the wife or to some of the
man's friends.
4039. I understood you to say that sometimes they were made
payable to the shipping agent?-They are payable by the shipping
agent. It is the agent who has to pay them.
4040. But you say they are never made payable to him as well as
by him, so that he has really the control over them, if they are
handed to him?-He has [Page 101] the control over them He
advances the money either to the wife or to any person that she
sends for it.
4041. But, in point of fact, they are not made payable to him as
well as by him?-They are made payable to his order.
4042. Do you say that these notes are not so taken by the shipping
agent, that he gets the benefit of them and the control over them,
and that the wife has no control over them whatever?-It is quite
possible that may be done in some cases, but I cannot say.
4043. But that has not been done in your practice?-I shall send
for one of the forms of these notes, and that will explain the matter
better to you.
4044. I understand these advance notes and allotment notes are
negotiable; at least they are indorsed by the seaman's wife as a
receipt?-I suppose when they are brought to the merchant they
are indorsed by her, and he pays the value of the note to anybody
who brings it.
4045. Can the seaman himself indorse the note beforehand?-In
many cases the seamen don't get any of these allotment notes at
all, especially on these short voyages to Greenland.
4046. But on a long voyage, does the seaman in point of fact
indorse the note?-A married man, I suppose, will take out these
advance notes to his family.
4047. And he indorses them?-I think so; but not in every case.
4048. Does he, in some cases, indorse specially to the ship's
agent?-Not to my knowledge; but I have not had that matter
through my hands lately, and I cannot speak to it with certainty.
4049. Do you not attend to that part of your business yourself?-
No; Mr. Goudie, one of our clerks does it.
4050. Then, the contradiction you have made of the statement in
the report to the Board of Trade has been made on behalf of your
firm?-Yes.
4051. You have no knowledge of the way in which other agents
in Lerwick have dealt?-No; but I believe these agents, as well
as ourselves, are very glad to get any men they can meet with to
engage for the fishing. There is sometimes great difficulty
experienced in manning the ships, and we cannot pick and choose.
4052. The commission of 21/2 per, cent. is matter of private bargain
between you and the shipowners?-Yes.
4053. So that, if that is an insufficient remuneration, it might by
private agreement be increased?-I suppose it might; but if the
owners can get people to do their work for 21/2 per cent., they will
not increase it.
4054. However, the principal thing you wish to state upon that
point is, that at the time when you engage these men for a
Greenland voyage, none of them are, in point of fact, in debt to
your firm?-None of them. That is stated in one of the letters we
wrote to one of the owners in Peterhead.
4055. There have been special regulations issued by the Board of
Trade applicable to the discharge of seamen in Orkney and
Shetland from the whalers, which are intended to allow a longer
period for signing the release?-Yes.
4056. These regulations provide-'(1.) The agreement shall be
entered into before the Superintendent of a Mercantile Marine
office, and shall show the advance of wages made, and the
allotments to be paid during the ship's absence; there shall also be
a stipulation in regard to the travelling expenses of the men on
their return home, in the event of their being taken past their own
island. (2.) The master of the ship shall keep a separate store book
for the Shetland and Orkney men, containing a distinct account for
each of the men, in which, on the ship's return, he shall show the
wages, and estimate the amount of oil and bone money, etc., to
which they are respectively entitled; the account to be signed by
himself and the seaman whom it concerns, in proof of its accuracy.
At the foot of the account he shall state his opinion of the
character of the man to enable the agent to prepare the certificate
of discharge and character. (3.) When the men are landed the
master shall deliver the book to the agent in order that the account
of wages etc., may be prepared therefrom; and the balances due
to the men shall be paid to them in the presence of the
Superintendent at the Mercantile Marine Office, to whom the store
book is to be produced by the agent. The balance to be paid to the
man is to be the balance due on account of the voyage, deducting
only such advances and allotments as shall have been stipulated
for in the agreement, and the value of such stores as may have
been, supplied to him personally during the voyage by the
master'?-It has been found to be impossible to comply with that
regulation about settling with the men when they are landed,
because the moment they are landed they hurry to their homes, and
only come back to Lerwick to settle as they find it convenient for
themselves.
4057. And in point of fact the settlement is delayed for weeks?-
Yes, for weeks, and sometimes for months.
4058. Are the balances contained in the statement you have
produced the balances referred to in the regulation I have read?-
They are the actual cash balances due to the men, and the actual
amount paid to the men in cash.
4059. The deductions in the second column are supplies made by
you in goods?-Yes.
4060. Is it not an infringement of the Merchant Shipping Act of
1864, to supply goods even to that limited extent?-These supplies
may have been made on monthly notes; and there is nothing in the
Merchant Shipping Act to prevent us from giving credit to men
going to Greenland the same as to any person at home, provided
they come back and pay us. We know them, and could trust them
to come back; but I don't think that, in any case, we have given
them any credit.
4061. If you did not give them credit, how did you find it
necessary to deduct these supplies?-In that case the supplies may
have been given under monthly allotment notes.
4062. What you mean is that the £1, 7s. 2d. which you state as the
average of the deductions may have been paid either in cash or in
goods?-Yes. I think I have explained that in the paper I have
given in.
4063. You say in one of the letters you have quoted, that 'the
supplies mentioned in the account consist mostly of meal, given to
the men's families to account of their half pay notes, and on which
the profits cannot pay cellar rents and servants' wages'?-When a
half-pay note not due until the end of the month, and the wife
sends in and wants some meal in the meantime, she gets the meal,
and we deduct it from the half-pay notes when we pay them.
4064. Then the half-pay notes are not generally paid cash?-They
are generally paid in cash, but before they are due we give them
goods to account.
4065. Am I to understand that these notes are paid mostly in meal
or mostly in cash?-They are paid partly in meal, and rest is paid
in money when the notes are due. If a woman has 20s. of a half
pay note, she gets perhaps 5s. in meal, and then she gets the rest of
the money in full when it is due. The second column in the
abstract I have produced, shows the actual goods advanced, and
the actual money.
4066. Have you now got one of the forms of the advance note?-
Yes [produces it]; that form is addressed to us.
4067. That is to say, you are to pay it?-Yes; and the woman,
when she gets the money, signs her name on the back of the note.
4068. Is it not the case sometimes that in the lines issued to
Lerwick seamen the order is to pay is in favour of the ship's agent
himself?-Not that I know of.
4069. Has there been no indorsation by the seaman or his wife, in
any case that you are aware of which was equivalent to an order to
pay to the ship's agent himself?-That could only have had the
effect of reserving the agent's claim against the shipowner.
4070. No, it would enable him to retain the money which he would
be bound to pay at settlement or at the end of the month when the
allotment note became due to the wife or sister, or other relation
[Page 102] of the seaman. Have you known any case of that
kind?-There may have been such cases, but I have not been
aware of them.
4071. The third article of these regulations by the Board of Trade
goes on to say-'The superintendent is not to allow any deduction
to be made in their account for stores supplied by the agent or by
tradesmen to the seaman's family during the seaman's absence,
nor is he to permit the insertion in the account of deductions for
any transactions in money or goods that may have taken place
before the commencement of the voyage.' I suppose that refers to
the form of note now shown to me?-Yes. In fact he is not to
allow anything to go into the settlement, except what is provided
for in the agreement.
4072. Are these supplies, which are stated in the note, not an
infringement of that rule of the Board of Trade?-No. As I
mentioned already, I suppose the greater part of these supplies
have been made on allotment notes.
4073. But although made on the allotment notes, yet they are
supplies made by the agent to the seaman's family, and they are
deducted from his wages at the end?-Yes; but these allotment
notes are provided for to be included in the settlement with the
seaman when he returns. They are made a legal claim against his
wages.
4074. Does the rule not imply that the allotment notes are to he
paid in money?-The man's family can get them either in money
or in goods, as they choose. The woman may perhaps not wait
until the end of the month to receive her £1, 2s. 6d. she may want
a part of it in the early part of the month, or in the middle of the
month; and she comes and gets either money or goods, as she
chooses; and then at the end of the month she gets the balance.
4075. When she gets the goods in the middle of the month, she
gets them on credit?-Yes; and she pays for them out of the £1, 2s.
6d. when she gets her allotment note settled; but I think that has
occurred only to a very small extent. I think there are very few of
the seamen who take these allotment notes at all. The young men
don't require to take them; it is only the married men who require
them.
4076. If it is the case that very few take them, then the whole of
these supplies are not on allotment notes?-I think a good many of
them have been given on allotment notes.
4077. But so far as they were not on allotment notes, in what way
were the supplies furnished? Has it been upon accounts opened
with the men for their outfit before starting?-I think that has very
seldom been the case. They may occasionally get a few shillings
worth when they go out; but we take care to give as little credit in
that way as possible.
4078. Were the deductions you have stated here [showing] allowed
by the superintendent in settling with these seamen?-No. These
deductions, as I have said already, are in the form of allotment
notes.
4079. But you have told me that only some of them were in
the form of allotment notes; in what way were the rest of the
deductions made?-The superintendent does not allow any
deductions, unless what are specially mentioned in the agreements.
If these men got a few shillings of advance before they went away,
it is possible that may have been included, they come back and pay
it after the settlement at the custom-house.
4080. Then, this total of £10, 6s. 4d. [showing] paid in cash does
not show the amount that was actually handed over in presence of
the superintendent?-I think it does, or near about it.
4081. But not altogether to a penny?-Perhaps not so near as that,
but I took the book and went over it carefully, and picked out all
the cash the men had got, and all the goods, and separated them.
4082. In settling with the men before the superintendent, you are
entitled to deduct the amount of allotment notes issued is that
so?-Yes; and the first month's advance, and any advances the
men may have had on board the vessel during the voyage.
4083. Does the £270, 1s., 7d., mentioned in your abstract of
accounts, represent the whole of the deductions that were so
allowed by the superintendent?-Perhaps not exactly the whole; I
shall send for the book, and it will explain it better.
4084. There may have been something due for supplies furnished
in addition to what was allowed by the superintendent, and for
which the seaman settled with you after receiving his cash?-
Perhaps that may have been so, but I have not been in the habit of
settling with the men myself.
4085. Perhaps your clerk, who settled with the men, can explain
it better, as he has been in the way of carrying through the
transactions?-Yes.
4086. But what I understand you to say is, that you cannot state
that sum of £1, 7s. 2d. represents the whole amount of advances
which on an average each received from you?-The only thing I
can state just now is, that out of an average of £11, 13s. 6d., which
each man was entitled to receive each year over a period of three
years, we only paid them £1, 7s. 2d. in goods
4087. But you cannot state that that £1, 7s. 2d. all fell under the
category of deductions allowed by the regulations of the Board of
Trade?-No; not unless I were to go over every man's account,
and pick out what had been given to him under allotment notes.
4088. And you cannot state that the sum of £10, 6s. 4d. was the
sum which actually passed in cash at the settlement before the
superintendent?-It is the actual sum which passed into the men's
hands in cash.
4089. Do you say that there was not a larger sum than that which
passed between the men and your clerk before the superintendent
at settlement, part of which was returned to you afterwards, in
payment for supplies?-I don't know about that, because I have
not been in the habit of going up to the custom-house with the
men; but I went over the books myself, and I found that £10, 6s.
4d. was the amount in cash which the men got out of the sum of
£11, 13s. 6d., in whatever way it was paid to them.
4090. You cannot say whether it was paid before the
superintendent or not?-No; I cannot say.
4091. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No; I think
everything has been referred to.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANET EXTER, examined.
4092. Where do you live?-At Satter, in Sandwick parish.
4093. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
4094. For whom?-For Mr. Robert Linklater. I knitted for him
first.
4095. Does he supply you with wool?-He gives us worsted to
knit.
4096. You don't knit with your own worsted?-No.
4097. What do you knit?-Mostly veils.
4098. How often you come to Lerwick with them?-Generally at
the end of every month.
4099. Do you keep an account with Mr. Linklater?-We get no
lines, and I have not a pass-book.
4100. Why have you not a pass-book?-Because he thought there
was no use giving us a pass-book when he marked all the things
down in his own book, and he would not give it.
4101. When you go to him with your veils, how are you paid?-
Very poorly. We just get 8d. for a veil.
4102. How is that paid to you-in money or goods?-In goods. I
have asked for a payment in money, but he would not give any.
He gives us tea for 9d. and 10d. a quarter.
4103. Would you give your veils for less if you could get money
for them?-Yes, for a little less.
4104. For how much less?-Not much.
4105. Are you not as well off getting the goods as you got
money?-No; I would be better off with the money.
4106. Why? Do you not want to buy the articles [Page 103] which
Mr. Linklater sells to you?-No. Sometimes we need a little meal.
4107. Have you no other means of getting meal than from your
knitting?-No.
4108. Do you not work out of doors?-We work in the field and in
the turnips.
4109. But it is yourself I am speaking of. Do you live with your
father and mother?-Yes.
4110. Have they got a bit of ground?-Very little; a peerie (small)
bit.
4111. But you think you would be better with money, and you
want to buy meal with it?-Yes, I want to buy some meal. I
dropped knitting to Mr. Linklater and went to Mr. Sinclair. I asked
a little money from him, and I got 2s. or 3s. So far as I saw, there
was more justice in him than in Mr. Linklater.
4112. If you were only paid for your knitting in dresses and goods
of that sort, what did you do when you wanted to buy meal?-We
had to take the goods home, and give the cotton and tea for the
meal we wanted.
4113. To whom did you give the cotton and tea?-Just to any
person who would give us meal for them.
4114. Is there a shop in your neighbourhood?-Yes.
4115. Have you given goods there in exchange for meal?-Yes,
sometimes.
4116. Does the shopkeeper there take your goods from you in that
way, in exchange for any articles you want?-Yes, sometimes,
when we require anything.
4117. What is his name?-Mr. Gavin Henderson, at Ness,
Sandwick.
4118. Is it a common thing for Mr. Henderson to take goods from
you?-No.
4119. He generally wants to be paid in money?-Yes.
4120. Is that the only thing you have done with the goods except
using them yourself?-No. When I met any person that I could get
a little meal from in exchange for them, I have given them for that.
4121. Have you ever given away your goods to any other person
than Mr. Henderson for money or meal?-Not very often.
4122. Have you ever done it?-Yes.
4123. To whom have you given them?-Just to any person
thereabout.
4124. You have given them to any neighbour who wanted the
goods, and happened to have meal?-Yes.
4125. When was that?-It was about two or three years back.
4126. You have not done it for the last two or three years?-No.
4127. How was that? Have you been better off?-Yes, a little; but
not much.
4128. You have been getting some money from Mr. Sinclair
during the last two or three years?-Yes; a shilling now and then.
4129. And that would help you?-Yes, it helped a little.
4130. How much do you get in a month for your knitting?-I will
get a shilling and a sixpence at a time.
4131. But what is the value of your knitting? What are your
earnings in a month?-I will make about eight or nine veils in a
month; and when they are made of the finest worsted I get 16d. for
them.
4132. Then you will be earning 12s. or 13s. in a month?-Yes.
4133. And you will get a shilling of that in cash now and then?-
Yes.
4134. Do you spend the rest in dress?-Yes, and cotton.
4135. How much of that will you give away in the course of a year
for meal and money?-I could not say.
4136. You will get about £6 or £7 worth of dress in the course of a
year: do you require all that for your own use?-No, I don't
require it all.
4137. You give some of it to the rest of your family?-Yes.
4138. Is that all you have got to say?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE SANDISON; examined.
4139. You have come in from Sandwick parish to give some
evidence about the way in which you are paid for your hosiery?-
Yes.
4140. Do you knit for any person in town?-Yes; have knitted for
Mr. Robert Linklater for four years.
4141. Do you knit with his wool?-Yes.
4142. And are you paid in goods?-Yes.
4143. Do you ever get money?-No.
4144. Have you ever asked for it?-I asked for it one time, and he
said he expected money from me, and not I from him.
4145. That was for goods you were to get?-Yes.
4146. But you gave him hosiery instead of money, and you got his
goods?-Yes.
4147. Have you ever disposed of any of the goods you got in that
way, in order to provide yourself with provisions or to pay rent?-
Yes.
4148. To whom have you sold them?-I have sold them to several
persons for oil to see to knit.
4149. Do you burn oil in your lamps?-Yes.
4150. To whom did you sell them for oil?-To several persons.
4151. To neighbours?-Yes.
4152. Tell me anything you gave away in that way?-I have given
tea.
4153. How much?-Sometimes two ounces for bottle of oil.
4154. When did you do that last?-Last year.
4155. Did you do it often?-Three times.
4156. Did you ever give away your goods for anything else?-
Sometimes we gave them away for wool to make into worsted.
4157. Who did you buy wool from?-From any one that I could
get it from.
4158. Give me the names of some of the people from whom you
got oil and worsted in exchange for your goods?-I gave some tea
to Mitchell Sandison for wool.
4159. Did you ever sell any of your soft goods in that way?-No.
4160. It was always tea?-Yes.
4161. Is it a common thing among the knitters in your quarter to
give away tea for anything you want?-Yes; for anything we can
get for it.
4162. Did you ever pay for meal with it?-No.
4163. Did you ever pay your rent with it?-No.
4164. Did you ever get money for tea?-No.
4165. It was just oil and wool that you got in exchange for it?-
Yes.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, JANE HALCROW, examined.
4166. You come from Sandwick parish?-Yes; from North
Channerwick.
4167. Do you knit for Mr. Robert Linklater with his wool?-Yes.
4168. Are you paid in goods?-Yes,
4169. Did you ever ask for money?-Yes, once.
4170. Did you get it?-No.
4171. What did you want the money for?-I wanted it for several
purposes. We might perhaps require to pay for our board if we
were staying a night or two in town; and that was the purpose I
wanted it for at that time.
4172. Did you want any of it for provisions to take home?-Yes.
[Page 104]
4173. Are you not content to get the goods you want in return for
your hosiery?-We are not very well content sometimes.
4174. Why?-Because if we were getting the money, we might
make more of it in some other shops.
4175. Did you ever get the money to make more of it?-We never
got money from Mr. Linklater.
4176. But did you ever go to Lerwick with money in your pocket,
and make more of it than when you came with hosiery?-Yes,
often.
4177. What money was that? Had you earned it by working at
other things than knitting?-Yes.
4178. How did you make more of it than you would have done by
spending it in the hosiery shop?-I went to other shops where
there were better articles.
4179. Where did you go?-Sometimes to Mr. George Tait's.
4180. Does he not buy hosiery?-No, he never buys hosiery.
4181. Where else did you go to?-To Mr. Thomas Nicholson.
4182. But he buys hosiery?-Sometimes; if it is very good.
4183. Tell me anything you bought at Mr. Tait's or Mr.
Nicholson's which was cheaper than you would have got it for at
the shops where you sold your hosiery?-It was only trifling things
we bought out of their shops, because we never had money to buy
things of great value from them.
4184. What were some of these trifling things?-Perhaps we were
requiring neckties, or ribbons, or flowers; we might get them from
them, but we scarcely ever went there to buy anything like dresses.
I remember once buying a dress at Mr. George Tait's and I got a
splendid bargain of it for money.
4185. Did you get it any cheaper than you would have got it from
the shops where they buy hosiery?-Yes; he reduced the price
because it was to be paid money.
4186. If you had offered money in Mr. Linklater's or Mr. Sinclair's
shops; would you not have got the dress as cheap there?-I don't
think it.
4187. Have you any reason to know that you would not?-Yes, I
have reason to know that, because if we were buying anything out
of their shops we would not get any reduction on the price
4188. Even although you were offering money?-Yes.
4189. Have you gone there with money?-Yes, I have gone with
money, but very little. I scarcely ever go to their shops with
money if I have it.
4190. Have you ever exchanged any of the goods that you got for
your knitting?-No, I have never done that.
4191. You have always wanted them for your own use, or for the
use of your family?-Yes.
4192. Have you taken goods from other people which they had got
in exchange for their hosiery?-No.
4193. Have you known anybody who did so?-No; I cannot say
any person who has done it.
4194. Is that all you came here to say?-I think a very proper thing
would be that we should have a little money, if not the whole, for
our knitting. It would be a good thing if we could get even the half
of it in money.
4195. Did you ever try to get one-half in money?-I only asked for
money once-it was a very trifling sum, only 6d.-and I was
refused it.
4196. Was that when you had sold your knitting to Mr.
Linklater?-No; I was knitting to him at that time with his own
worsted.
4197. Did you ever sell anything that you had knitted with your
own worsted?-Sometimes I would sell a little.
4198. Were you always paid in goods in the same way?-Yes,
always in goods.
4199. Did you ever try to get payment of it in money?-No;
because they always said they never gave money; so there was no
use asking.
Mrs AGNES MALCOMSON or JOHNSTONE, examined.
4200. Do you live with your husband at Victoria Wharf,
Lerwick?-Yes.
4201. Do you sometimes knit?-I do. I generally knit for myself
and sell what I have made.
4202. To whom do you sell it?-I cannot mention any one of the
merchants that I have sold to more than another. I sell it to any
one.
4203. Do you sometimes sell to strangers?-I don't do much in
that way.
4204. It is to the merchants in Lerwick that you sell principally?-
Yes.
4205. And you get payment for your knitting by taking goods in
the usual way?-Yes.
4206. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never get any
money.
4207. Have you asked for money, and been refused?-Yes, I have
asked for money to pay for the dressing of shawls. It is generally
half shawls that I knit.
4208. Have you not been able to get money when you asked for
it?-I once got 6d. for that purpose, or rather it was thrown at me.
4209. What do you mean by that?-I mean that it was given in that
sort of way.
4210. Would you rather be paid in money than in goods for your
knitting?-Yes, much rather.
4211. If you could get money, would you be content to take a
rather lower price for your work?-I would indeed.
4212. What is the price of the half shawls you knit?-They vary in
price according to the quality of them.
4213. What is the ordinary price you get?-I have got 28s. for a
half shawl, and I have got from that down to as low as 12s.
4214. Suppose you were selling a shawl for 16s. in goods, would
you be content to take 14s. if you were paid for it in cash?-Yes, I
would be quite content to do with that.
4215. Why?-Because I would be able to make more of the 14s. in
cash than of the 16s. in goods.
4216. How would you do that?-I would go to the ready money
shops, as we call them; and I would do as much with my 14s. in
cash as I would do with my 16s. in goods.
4217. Where would you go in Lerwick to make as much of 14s. in
cash as the 16s. worth of goods which you would get in one of the
other shops?-I don't like to mention the names of these shops
publicly, but I will give them privately. [Witness gives the names
of two shops.]
4218. Are there more shops than one where you could do that?-
Yes; there is one shop especially, but there are others also where I
could make as much of 14s. as I could of 16s. in goods.
4219. Have you tried that often?-Not very often, because I have
not had it in my power; but when I could do it I tried it.
4220. Have you sometimes, when you had ready money, gone to
such a shop as Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?- Not very often.
4221. Have you ever gone there?-Long ago, when I was young, I
went there very often, but I have not gone for many years.
4222. Then you cannot tell whether you could make more of your
14s. at a shop like that, than you could at Mr Linklater's or Mr
Sinclair's?-I think I would make more in Messrs. Hay's if I had
the cash than I would in Mr. Linklater's.
4223. Would you often find it convenient to have the money with
which to buy provisions?-Yes, a person like me who has a family
would often find it to be convenient. Those of us who have our
husbands earnings to live upon are not limited to that; but I have to
find the most part of the clothing out of my knitting, or out of my
other industry.
4224. Do you employ your time in other ways as well as in
knitting?-Yes. I keep a lodger occasionally. I have two or three
children at school, and a [Page 105] baby at home to attend to,
besides sometimes one, and sometimes two lodgers.
4225. And it would be handy for you to have the money with
which to pay school fees?-Yes.
4226. Have you ever been obliged to exchange the goods you got
for money for other things you were more in want of?-No; I have
never been so hard pushed as that, but I know some people who
have.
4227. Were these acquaintances of your own?-Yes; I know them
quite well.
4228. Have you ever taken goods from them, and given them
money or provisions in exchange?-Yes; I have given a few
groceries occasionally, but very few. I have also bought groceries
from a knitter, such as tea, which they had taken out in exchange
for their work.
4229. How did you pay for that? Did you give the woman money
for it?-Yes, I gave her money to help her through for a time.
4230. What was she to do with the money?-That was no business
of mine; I don't know.
4231. Did she not tell you what she was to do with it?-No; she
did not say, and I did not ask.
4232. Did she come and ask you to take the tea off her hands?-
Yes.
4233. Who was that?-I will give the name privately. There was
more than one of them. [Witness gives two names.]
4234. Then you think it would be better for the knitters that they
should be paid in cash?-Yes, it would be better for all the
Lerwick knitters especially.
4235. Why for the Lerwick knitters especially?-Because they are
most dependent upon their knitting, especially in the winter
season.
Lerwick, January 8, 1872, ROBERT MOUAT, examined.
4236. You are a blacksmith at Olnafirth Voe?-Yes.
4237. You get the principal part of your work from Messrs. Adie,
and the fishermen and tenants in that district?-Yes.
4238. In dealing with Messrs. Adie, do you run an account with
them?-No; I generally pay in cash for what I get in the shop.
4239. Are you aware whether the prices that you pay in cash are
the same as are paid by the fishermen in the neighbourhood?-I
am not quite sure about that, but I suppose so.
4240. Can you tell me the prices of any of the articles which you
get from their shop? For instance, what do you pay for meal?-
The meal that Messrs. Adie sell now is 1s. 5d. per peck, whereas I
can get the same meal in Lerwick for 1s. 2d. now. Five months
ago, when I lived in Lerwick, I could get it for 1s. 3d.
4241. What do you pay for tea?-There are three kinds of tea; we
pay about 3s. 4d. per pound for one kind, about 4s. for another,
and I think 3s. is about the lowest.
4242. Is there any other article that you get in any quantity in
Messrs. Adie's shop?-I think these are the principal articles we
get there.
4243. Do you deal for soft goods there?-A little.
4244. For boots?-No; I have not gone there for boots.
4245. What kind of soft goods do you get?-Winceys and cottons.
4246. Can you tell the prices which are charged for these things,
compared with what you would get them for in Lerwick?-No.
4247. Is it commonly supposed that there is more than one price
for goods at that shop? Have you heard the fishermen who settle
up only once a year, complain that you get your goods cheaper
than they did?-I have not heard them say so. It is not long since I
went to that place, and I am not very well acquainted with the
fishermen there yet.
4248. Where were you before?-I was born in Northmavine, and I
was connected with the fishing there.
4249. How long is it since you ceased to fish there?-About
fifteen years ago. After leaving Northmavine I came to Lerwick.
4250. Do the fishermen at Voe run an account at the store, which
is settled at the end of the fishing season?-I think so.
4251. What reason have you for supposing that? Have they told
you so?-They have not told me, but I have been aware of such
cases since I went there.
4252. Does that mode of settlement affect you in your trade?-It
affects me in this way, that I get a little more custom from the
fishermen about the time when they settle, than I do during the rest
of the year.
4253. Is that because they have money to pay you with?-Yes.
4254. Do you not give them credit in the rest of the year if they
have work to do?-I give them some credit; but I have only been
five months there.
<Adjourned>.
Lerwick: Tuesday, January 9, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
WILLIAM GOUDIE, examined.
4255. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness, on the
property of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am.
4256. Are you under any obligation, by the terms on which you
hold your land, to fish for any particular fish merchant?-Yes; we
are under an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce, younger of
Sumburgh.
4257. Is that obligation part of a verbal contract or lease which you
have with him?-It is generally known that we must not break that
rule.
4258. You have no leases on the Sumburgh estate?-No; but we
had an offer of a lease. The offer I had is here. [Produces paper.]
4259. The document you hand in is a printed copy of 'Rules for
the better management of the Sumburgh estate?'-Yes.
4260. When did you get it?-Last year, at settlement, so far as I
remember. That would be in the spring of 1871.
4261. When is your settling time?-There is not always one
settling time. Some years it is later, and some years earlier.
4262. Have you settled this year yet?-No.
4263. Was anything said to you about that paper when it was
handed to you?-No; it was just handed over to me in Mr. Bruce's
office.
4264. Have you signed any copy of these rules?-No.
4265. You have not accepted them as binding upon you?-No.
4266. Do you prefer to continue to hold your land year by year?-
No; we should like a lease.
4267. Have you any objection to these rules?-We [Page 106]
thought they were not altogether so much on our side of the leaf,
as we say, as we should like.
4268. You are not going to accept them?-I don't believe we
shall.
4269. But under your present tenure, as you hold your land at
present, you say you are bound to deliver all your fish to young
Mr. Bruce?-Yes; the fresh fish.
4270. In what way are you so bound? Did you agree to any
obligation of that kind?-No; but before I became a tenant, the
rule had been issued that all his tenants had to give their fish to
him in a fresh state.
4271. When did you become a tenant?-About five or six years
ago; and the rule was in force before I came. I have broken the
rule very little so that I have not been called in question.
4272. But you took your land knowing that that was a condition of
your having it?-Yes.
4273. Have you had to pay any fines for delivering any of your fish
to other parties?-No, I have paid none.
4274. Do you understand that such fines are to be levied if you fail
to deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce?-I have not heard of any fines;
but it has been reported that the tenants would be warned if they
did so. I have heard that reported publicly: that they would be
warned, or might be warned, on that account.
4275. Did you agree, when taking your lease that you would be
liable to pay a fine if you delivered your fish to any other
merchant?-No, I was never called upon to agree to that; but it
was generally known that we had to give all our fish to him, fresh.
4276. Who told you that you were to give your fish to him?-That
was known publicly all over the district before I became a tenant.
I understood from my father and brothers and neighbours that they
had had to do that, and I became a tenant on the same terms.
4277. Were your father and brothers tenants on the Sumburgh
estate before you?-Yes; before I had land from Mr. Bruce.
4278. Before you took the land, were you living on the estate?-I
had lived on the estate, for twenty-five years. I was born and
brought up on it; then I was absent for eleven years, and then I
came back to it. It was during the time I was absent that this rule
came into force.
4279. Is there any obligation upon the tenants there to dispose of
their cattle or other produce to any particular person?-Not so far
as I know.
4280. There is no obligation upon them at all, except as to fish?-
Not so far as I know.
4281. How are you paid for your fish?-We are paid so much per
hundredweight of fresh fish, just as the price may be yearly. It is
not always the same price.
4282. But there is one price for the whole fish of the year?-Yes,
for the same kind of fish. There is one price for ling, and one
price for saith.
4283. That price is fixed when?-Nearly the time when we settle.
We don't know exactly what price we are to get until about that
time.
4284. When is that?-It is not always in one month of the year. It
has sometimes been as late as March before we settled for the fish
we had caught in the previous spring. Sometimes it may have
been a month earlier.
4285. Has it ever been earlier than February?-Not so far as I
remember.
4286. When were the last of the fish delivered that were settled for
at one of these settlements?-Last year, so far as I know, Mr.
Bruce settled up for all the fish that had been weighed to him up to
the time of the settlement,; at least, most of it was settled for then.
4287. That includes the small fish you catch in winter?-Yes.
4288. Are you bound to deliver them to him, the same as the large
fish you get in summer?-Yes.
4289. Then it is both the haaf fishing you are speaking of just now
and the small fishing in winter?-Yes. All the fish we catch
where I live are ling, cod, tusk, and saith.
4290. But the fishing that you go to in summer is what you call the
haaf fishing, or the summer fishing?-Yes; in a sense it is the haaf
fishing, though the saith fishing is with us properly the haaf
fishing. Some go farther off in bigger boats and with longer lines,
and fish for ling and cod; while there are others, in smaller boats
and nearer the shore, pursuing the saith fishing. That is the only
difference between the kinds of fishing with us.
4291. But the obligation and the settlement for the price of the fish
that you have been speaking of applies to both the haaf fishing and
the fishing in the smaller boats near the shore?-It applies to all
the fishing.
4292. There is no Faroe fishing there?-Some of the men go to it.
4293. But Mr. Bruce does not fit out boats for the Faroe fishing?-
Not so far as I know.
4294. And you are under no obligation to him with regard to it?-
No.
4295. You say you don't know of any case of fines being imposed
for delivering fish to other merchants?-There is no case of that
kind that I remember of.
4296. Do you know of any increase of rent being imposed upon
that estate in consequence of liberty being given to fish for other
merchants?-No. There was liberty asked and granted at one
time, before most of those who are here were able to fish. That
was under old Mr. Bruce.
4297. How long ago was that?-I don't remember the time. It was
when I was a boy. Some of the other witnesses may know about it.
4298. Are you under any obligation to buy your goods from Mr.
Bruce's shop?-Not strictly speaking.
4299. What do you mean by 'not strictly speaking?'-In one sense
we are not bound, yet in another sense we are bound. There is no
rule issued out that we must purchase our goods from there; but as
we fish for Mr. Bruce, and have no ready money, we can hardly
expect to run accounts with those who have no profit from us.
That confines many of us to purchase our goods from his shop.
4300. Are there other stores in the neighbourhood from which you
could get your supplies as good and as cheap?-Yes. Messrs. Hay
& Co. have a store near us. Some things might not be equally
good, but there are other things there which are as good and as
cheap.
4301. What other stores are there in your neighbourhood?-There
is no store exactly near us until we come to Mr. Gavin
Henderson's.
4302. How far is his shop from your place?-It is above a mile.
4303. Is Messrs. Hay's within a mile?-Yes, it is less than that.
4304. Are there fishermen in the neighbourhood of Mr.
Henderson's shop, and living on Mr. Bruce's estate?-Mr.
Henderson's shop is not on Mr. Bruce's property.
4305. Has he no fishermen living beyond Henderson's shop?-
There are some nearly as far north on the east side, but not so far
north on the west side. Mr. Bruce's property extends a little
farther north on the east side than on the west side of the island,
and Mr. Henderson's place is on the west side.
4306. You live on the west side of Dunrossness?-Yes, rather; but
we are on the south point, so it does not much matter.
4307. But are fishermen who live nearer to Mr. Henderson's store
virtually bound, in the same way as you are to deal at Mr. Bruce's
store?-The whole of Mr. Bruce's tenants are on equal terms,-all
in equal bondage.
4308. But are there men for whom it would be more convenient to
deal at Henderson's store, as they live nearer to it?-Yes.
4309. Are they in the habit of dealing at Mr. Bruce's store for the
reasons you have stated?-So far as I know, they are.
4310. The same reason of a want of credit elsewhere, [Page 107]
would apply to them as to you, and compel them to go to Mr.
Bruce's store?-I don't say that they don't have credit; but we
cannot expect to run a heavy account with a man who has no profit
from us, when we are uncertain whether we will be able to clear
that account or not. Therefore, as a rule, we do not run heavy
accounts for such things as meal, for instance, when our crops are
a failure, with any man except Mr. Bruce.
4311. That would be just as true of a man who was two miles
nearer to Henderson's store than to Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.
4312. And for that reason he may find it necessary, and probably
does find it necessary, to go to Mr. Bruce's store, and pass
Henderson's, although it is much nearer?-Yes, he has that to do.
4313. Are you satisfied with the quality and the price of the
articles which are sold at Mr. Bruce's store?-With the qualities
we have no reason to grumble; with the prices we do.
4314. Is that a general feeling in the district?-It is over all, so far
as I know.
4315. Have you compared the prices of any particular articles at
that store with what you could get them for elsewhere?-I have
compared some of them,-not many. For instance, I have tried to
compare meal, to see what I lost by having it from Mr. Bruce's
shop instead of from other places.
4316. What conclusion did you come to with regard to that?-I
concluded in my own mind that the difference was not below 3s.
on the boll of meal. It might be more, but I don't think it was less,
in this way, that we have our meal weighed to us, not always, but
generally, as 112 lbs. to the quarter boll.
4317. Of which store are you now speaking?-The store at
Grutness, on Mr. Bruce's property. The meal is weighed at 32 lbs.
to the lispund or quarter boll. Mr. Irvine, the storekeeper, told me
there was a difference made when the lispunds and half-lispunds
and pecks were summed up. I asked him whether there was a
difference in the price between that and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll,
and he said there was a difference; but I never knew what it was.
4318. Are you speaking just now of a difference in weight?-
There is a difference in weight, besides the difference in price. He
said he made a difference in the price on account of the short
weight, but I never knew what that difference was.
4319. In what quantities do you buy your meal at Grutness
store?-Sometimes in a boll, and sometimes in half a boll. Many
of the men seldom get a boll, but take their meal in quarter bolls,
and sometimes in an eighth of a boll, that is a peck, or 8 lbs.
4320. Is the boll you are speaking of the same as the boll by which
you would buy in Lerwick, or at Hay's or at Henderson's shop?-
When we get a boll unseparated, as it comes home, it is just the
same, so far as I know; but when it is weighed out, 32 lbs. to
the quarter boll, we are always under the impression that we lose
on weight.
4321. How is that?-I cannot tell how it is.
4322. Why should there be a loss on weight if the meal is weighed
out to you?-It is 32 lbs. to the quarter boll there, while in other
places it is 35 lbs.
4323. Where is it 35 lbs?-In Lerwick, and, so far as I know, in
Messrs. Hay's, at Dunrossness.
4324. Is the statement you are making just now, that you
understand you get only 32 lbs. to the quarter boll at Grutness,
while at other places you would get 35 lbs. to the quarter boll?-
Yes, I make that statement; but I also say that Mr. Irvine said there
was a little difference made in the price for that. He said, that
when it was summed up, so many lispunds being put into the boll,
there was a difference made on the price to cover the difference
between 32 and 35 lbs. to the quarter boll; but I never knew what
that difference was.
4325. What is the price charged at Grutness for quarter boll of 32
lbs. of meal?-It is not always one price.
4326. What is it just now?-I don't know. I only had one boll last
year, and he could not tell me the price of it. I never knew the
price of his meal until a neighbour who settled with him before me
came back; and then I tried to enter the price of my meal
according to what that neighbour said he had paid for it at
settlement.
4327. Then, in point of fact, you don't know anything about the
price of meal there?-He tells us the price of it when we settle.
4328. But you have had no settlement this year yet?-No.
4329. Had you a settlement last year, in the course of which you
became acquainted with the price of meal?-Yes.
4330. Was it charged at the same rate throughout the year previous
to your last settlement?-Yes; one year's meal is always one price.
4331. Is there never a variation in the price of meal during the year
to which the settlement applies?-Not so far as I have known.
4332. Can you tell the price at which you settled for your meal at
last settlement?-I don't remember exactly, but there are men
present who can tell that.
4333. Have you got any account of your last settlement?-I have
an account, but, not knowing that it would be called for or
required, it slipped past me.
4334. Were you not cited to bring all accounts, receipts, and
pass-books?-Yes. I made a careful search for that account, but
I could not find it. I have some accounts here, but I could never
keep an exact account of how I stood with the shop, because I
did not know the prices of the goods until the time came for
settlement, or until I heard the prices from a neighbour who had
been settled with. I then tried to enter the value of my goods, and
to post up my account, before I appeared at the settlement; but
when an unlearned man like me posts up his account in that way,
he has but a poor chance.
4335. But don't you get an account of your dealings at the shop at
the time when you are settled with?-We don't get a copy of our
shop account.
4336. Do none of the men get a copy of their account at that
time?-I cannot speak for others.
4337. Have you never had a pass-book?-No.
4338. Have you never asked for one?-Not so far as I remember.
4339. Then you have perfect reliance on the honesty of those who
act for Mr. Bruce in his shop?-Not exactly. I mark down the
articles myself which I receive, and I have compared that account
with Mr. Bruce to see if the same articles were in his account
when we settled. I could not until then, or until I had heard from a
neighbour a day or two before what he had paid, enter the value of
my articles; but I have compared the articles themselves with him,
and found the accounts run pretty straight.
4340. You have some accounts relating to previous years with
you? Let me see one of them as a specimen?-[Produces small
note-book]
4341. Is this account made up by yourself?-It is account kept for
my own satisfaction, to let me know whether there has been
anything marked against me which I have not had.
4342. This is only a memorandum: was it taken at the time when
the goods were got, or was it written up from memory?-When I
came home from his shop to my own house, after I had received
the goods, I marked them down. I had not the book with me when
I received the goods from him; but I generally mark my account
after I come home, or a little time after I get to my own house. But
I do not receive any copy of an account from him of his own
handiwork.
4343. Then that memorandum is merely a private note of your
own, made as you got the articles?-Yes.
4344. It does not contain the prices?-No; I did not know the
prices when I made those entries. I put the prices against some of
them when I settled, and some of them by learning the prices from
neighbours when they settled, while for some articles they told me
the prices when I got them.
4345. Did you find that the quantities marked in [Page 108] your
private memorandum were the same as those charged against you
at the shop?-Pretty nearly. There was no difference worth
mentioning.
4346. What opportunity had you of comparing them? Was the
account at the shop read over to you, or did you read it yourself?-
I read over what I had marked down, and he saw if it was the same
as what he had. When I come in to settle, Mr. Irvine asks me,
'Have you an account, William?'-I say, 'Yes,' and he says, 'Will
you read it over?'-I have asked him to read the account which
was in his book, but he told me to read mine. When I read my
account, he says, 'Yes, yes, yes,' checking off the articles as I
mention them. The last time I read over my account in this way,
there was one peck of meal entered against me which was not in
my own. I said I would not swear I was right, and he said he
would not swear he was right.
4347. In what way are you dissatisfied with the meal which you
get at Grutness?-It is 3s. a boll dearer than we can get it
elsewhere, because I have compared one year's account, which I
have in this memorandum-book, with the market price in Lerwick,
and I find that I am inside the limits of difference when I say that it
is 3s. a boll dearer at least.
4348. I see that this memorandum-book of yours contains an
account for several years back?-Yes.
4349. You get the prices for the goods at the time of settlement,
and mark them in your memorandum-book at the time?-Yes; or
from a neighbour who had settled before me, and who knew the
price of his meal.
4350. Were the whole of these entries in your memorandum-book
made about the time of settlement when the thing was fresh in
your memory?-Yes, I could not have made them before because I
did not know the prices until then.
4351. But it was done at the time or shortly thereafter, when you
remembered the prices which were charged against you at
settlement?-Yes.
4352. For what year is this account [showing]?-I think for 1869.
4353. The goods were supplied in 1868 and settled for in 1869?-
Yes; about February or March 1869. I cannot say to a month.
4354. And you have compared the note of prices there with the
prices in the books of a merchant in Lerwick for the same time?-
Yes; at least he said his books were for the same time. I looked at
my book and he looked in his, and he told me what the difference
was. The merchant was Mr. John Leslie, Lerwick.
4355. Was it only meal that you compared in that way?-Nothing
else. I am not sure of the barley meal; but I compared the oatmeal
with him.
4356. I see from the book that during that year you got 61/2 lispunds
of oatmeal which are all charged at 7s. a lispund?-Yes.
4357. When did you make your comparison with Mr. Leslie?-
Last night.
4358. Is there any other article you get at the store which you think
could be got cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; but I could not prove these
things so distinctly, as I have not compared them.
4359. What articles are there that you have that belief about?-
Mostly everything.
4360. In the obligation which you understand you are under to
deliver your fish to Mr. Bruce, are your sons and the other
members of your family included?-If they fish while living on his
property, they must fish to him.
4361. Have you known any cases of tenants being challenged
because their sons sold their fish to other parties than Mr.
Bruce?-There are no cases of that kind which I can distinctly
bring before you.
4362. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the
way in which matters are conducted in the fishing trade?-No; but
if I have liberty here to say anything in regard to Mr. Bruce
himself, I should like to be allowed to say a word. Mr. Bruce has
dealt with me and many other fishermen in a most honourable and
gentlemanly way. He has helped us when could not help
ourselves: whether he was in the knowledge that he would profit
by it or not, is not for me to say; but he has often helped us when
we required it.
4363. Do you think that under the present system of dealing you
have the advantage in a bad season?-I believe we have in a very
bad season.
4364. If you were not obliged to deliver your fish to the landlord, I
suppose he in turn would not be so ready to advance you supplies
from his store when you require them and are not able to pay for
them?-We believe so.
4365. Is it common for fishermen in that district to be considerably
in debt at the store after a bad season?-Yes, after a bad season.
4366. Do you generally get a balance in cash at settlement time, or
is it often the case that by that time you have got the whole value
of your fish paid to you in goods?-Some men have usually a good
bit of money to take, while others have not much, just as they have
had accounts at the shop, or have had money of their own with
which they could purchase goods elsewhere. Some of them may
have almost the whole value of their fishing to take in cash at
settlement, while others who have families to provide for, and
little land, and lean crops, have often very little to get, and are very
often in the landlord's debt. However, in an ordinary year, they
are not back much. At the present time, so far as I know, the bulk
of the men are clear, and most of them, I believe, would have
money to get.
4367. Are your boys obliged to act as beach boys to Mr. Bruce's
curers?-Yes.
4368. Is that part of the obligation under which you hold your
land?-I did not know that by experience until last year.
4369. How did you know it then?-My boy had the offer of a
certain sum to work to another man; and when I told Mr. Irvine
and Mr. Bruce, they were very angry that I should have done such
a thing. Therefore, for fear I should be turned off, I did not allow
my boy to take the wages which he had been offered, but kept him
at home, and told Mr. Irvine and Mr. Bruce that I would keep him.
I said I know I must be obedient, and my boy will work for you if
you want him.
4370. Where did that conversation take place between you and Mr.
Bruce and Mr. Irvine?-In Mr. Bruce's office,-the month or the
day of the month I cannot state.
4371. Were you sent for, or were you there to settle?-It was
before we settled,-perhaps in January.
4372. Were you sent for about it?-No; I wished to know if my
boy should take the wages that he had been offered.
4373. Why did you wish to know that?-Because I did not expect
they would give me the same amount of wages if he acted as a
beach boy. At the same time, they do not pay the boys ill; they pay
them tolerably well.
4374. But why did you go to see them? Had you been told before
that your boy ought not to engage except to them?-I had known
that.
4375. How did you know it?-It is publicly known that the
proprietor will want the boys of the tenantry to work for him.
4376. Had your boy been engaged before then?-He had wrought
as a beach boy the previous year.
4377. By whom had he been offered a higher wage in that month
of January?-By Messrs. Hay's man at Dunrossness.
4378. What was he to work at?-He was to work among the fish at
the livers or oil, as a beach boy to Messrs. Hay.
4379. What wages was he offered for that?-10s. for the season.
4380. When you got that offer, did you go to Mr. Bruce's office to
see about it?-Not immediately; it was a while after.
4381. Had you any communication from Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine
which led you to go to them about it?-No; but I knew that I was
not safe to let him go to Messrs. Hay without telling them about it.
The reason why I knew that was, because there had been a boy
agreed by a man I was fishing with to go to the [Page 109] fishing,
but the boy was kept back from the fishing, and the man had to
look out for another boy. We had two boys and two of ourselves
to make up our boat's crew; and the boy that my fellow-fisherman
told me he had agreed with was kept back, and he had to go and
search the parish for another to fill his place.
4382. Are cases of that kind common in the district?-Not very
common, but they do happen sometimes.
4383. When you went to Mr. Bruce about that matter, did you tell
him your boy had received an offer from Messrs. Hay & Co?-
Yes.
4384. What was said to you?-I am scarcely prepared to state in
public what was said to me.
4385. You are bound to state the truth.-I don't mind stating the
truth; and if I have to go for the truth, let me go. Mr. Bruce said he
did not believe that my boy had got that offer, and he was
somewhat angry. I dreaded the consequences, because I might
have no shelter if I went contradictory to his will, and I did not
know where to go if I should be turned off.
4386. But Mr. Bruce only said he did not believe you: that was all
he said?-Yes.
4387. How did he show his anger?-I saw it in his face, and I
knew it by his voice and tone.
4388. Did he say anything to you about the boy?-He just said in
an angry tone what I have stated. He said he did not believe he
had got any such offer, and that it was all a fiction to pull money
out of him.
4389. Did he say that you should not allow your boy to go?-No,
he did not say that.
4390. What else did he say?-I remember nothing more that I
could state.
4391. What was the end of it?-I told him I would not allow my
boy to work to another man, but that while I was a tenant I had to
be obedient, and I was determined to be obedient. There was no
use for being troublesome and disobedient if I wished to remain a
tenant, and I did not allow my boy to go until I settled. I then
asked them calmly if they wanted my boy. Mr. Irvine said 'Have
you not agreed your boy to another party?' I said, 'No; I have kept
my word that he should not work for any other man if you required
him, seeing I am a tenant.' They then agreed my boy, and he
worked for Mr. Bruce that year.
4392. What wages did he get?-He has not been settled with yet. I
said it was perhaps better for them to state a certain wage for him;
and Mr. Bruce said that he would not have less than £3, but he did
not say how much more.
4393. When a boy acts as a beach boy in that way, how are his
wages paid?-Generally the boy's wages are fixed before he
begins to work, but Mr. Bruce does not fix their wages until they
have wrought for a season. Then the factor sees how they have
wrought, and what he thinks they are worth. That, I know, has
been done.
4394. But how are they paid? Is it in goods or in money?-If they
don't take goods from the shop, they are paid in money at
settlement.
4395. They can either take goods in their own names at the shop,
or they can be paid in money at the settling time?-Yes.
4396. Is it usually the case that a separate account is opened in
name of a beach boy?-Yes.
4397. What is the usual age of a beach boy?-From 12 to 14 or 15,
and so on.
4398. Do you know whether, at the time of settlement, a boy has
usually any balance to receive in cash?-I should think that in
general they have something.4399. But is it not the practice that an
account is run, and the greater part of the wages is really settled
for in goods?-I could not state that exactly; because my own boy
wrought to them, and he had next to nothing from them. He
received his wages in money at the settlement without a grumble
and without a gloom.
4400. Had he no account at all?-I think he had a pocket knife.
4401. Are the wages of a beach boy generally handed over to his
parents?-So far as I know, that depends partly on the boy.
Generally his wages do very little more than purchase clothes for
him, and anything else he may require.
4402. Then generally the balance against him will amount to
nearly the whole amount of his wages, and there will be little to
get out?-I should think so; but I cannot speak positively on that
point.
4403. You do not know that from your own experience?-No.
4404. Is it usual for beach boys to have got more goods supplied
to them during the season than the amount of their wages at
settlement?-I can say nothing about that.
4405. Have you had anything to do with taking whales on the
coast?-Yes, with driving whales ashore.
4406. Have the fishermen in your quarter anything to complain of
about that?-When we get the whales flinched, and the blubber
brought up above high water mark, it is sold, and the third part of
the money is taken by the proprietor.
4407. Do you think the fishermen are entitled to get the whole?-
We think so.
4408. Who sells the oil?-There is a note sent up to Lerwick to
publish the sale. An auctioneer comes down and it is generally
sold on the spot, and the third part of the money is deducted.
4409. Who receives the money in the first instance? Is it the
auctioneer?-I don't know; but I should say it is the landlord.
4410. He accounts to the fishermen who are interested for their
share of the proceeds?-Yes.
4411. Is there any obligation to spend the money you get on these
occasions in the landlord's store?-No.
4412. You can do as you like with it?-Yes.
4413. Is there anything else you have got to say?-We all believe,
so far as I am aware, that liberty alone will never remedy our case.
Even suppose we had liberty, yet if we have no lease of our land,
the landlord can do with the land as he pleases, and render our
case worse than before.
4414. Then it is a lease that you want?-Yes, a lease of a proper
kind; but if the land rent can be raised to any figure the landlord
thinks proper, what can a lease do for us, or what can liberty do for
us. It cannot remedy our case.
4415. Then what you want is, that the landlord may be prevented
from raising his rent, and from turning you out of your farms?-
From raising it above measure, or above its real value. Another
thing is, that I can be turned out of my land at forty days warning,
after I have prepared it for winter.
4416. If you make a bargain for a lease for a certain number of
years, as they do in Scotland, then you could not be turned out
until that lease expired?-That is what we need, and the land let at
a reasonable figure.
4417. But that must depend upon the terms of your own
contract?-That may be; but the landlord sees plainly that he may
not have the power of the fishing; and if he has full power to rent
the land as he pleases, and can lay on the land what should come
from the fishing, then that would render our case more desperate
still.
4418. Do you mean that you have to pay part of your land rent
from the fishing?-Our rents depend solely on the fishing. Some
men may have a cow or a horse to sell, to help them to pay their
rent; while there may be ten who would have nothing of the kind
to sell, except their fish. On Mr. Bruce's property, so far as I am
aware, the bulk of the tenants have to pay their rents from their
fishing.
4419. Do you mean that your farm does not pay its own rent from
the crops which it yields?-Yes; we cannot afford to sell any crop
with which to pay our rent. If we were to sell the crop for that
purpose, we would be deprived of what we have to live upon. The
farms are very small, and we require the whole of the crops for our
own use. In some years they have not been sufficient to keep us
for half the year.
4420. Then the state of matters is, that you live principally by your
fishing, and that your farm is an extra source of employment, or an
extra means of [Page 110] living for part of the year?-Yes; some
years, when there has been a good crop, it may serve us almost or
altogether for the whole of the year; then the fishing pays the rent,
and we may have some balance over to help us otherwise. In a
poor year I have had experience of it, when our crops could only
serve us for six months, and then we had to buy meal for the other
six months. In that case the fishing had to do the best it could to
pay both the land rent and the meal.
4421. Then your difficulty is, that you are both fishermen and
farmers?-Yes; if the land was let at its real value, at what it was
actually worth, and we had a lease of it, and were allowed at the
same time to make the best of our fishing, we all believe that our
circumstances would be improved.
4422. Suppose that were the case, there would then be no
obligation upon you to deal at any shop, but you could go where
you liked for your goods?-Yes; and we could make the best of
our fishing at the same time.
4423. You could sell your fish to whom you pleased, making your
own price?-Yes.
4424. Would it be any advantage to you to cure your own fish?-
We believe it would; and we know it, because there are some of
our neighbours who do it. There are people here who can speak to
that.
4425. Don't you think the curing is better done when it is done
upon a large scale, than when a fisherman cures his own fish upon
the beach, with insufficient materials and apparatus, and perhaps
not with the same skill as people who are engaged in doing that
and nothing else?-With regard to the skill, none of them can
show us how to cure fish better than we could do ourselves.
4426. None of whom?-None of those who now cure them, and
who have the large fishings. We know how to cure them as well
as they do. We see how they are curing them now, and many of us
have cured fish before, so that we know quite well about it.
4427. Do you get as good a price for your fish when you cure them
yourselves as when they are cured by fish-curers?-We have not
had a chance to cure them ourselves.
4428. But you say you know about it by experience?-Yes. There
are neighbours curing their own fish near where I live. Laurence
Shewan is one.
4429. Is he a fisherman like yourself?-Yes.
4430. Does he cure his own fish?-Yes.
4431. How long has he done so?-I never remember him doing
anything else. There are others who cure them besides him.
4432. Is he better off than his neighbours, in consequence
of having liberty to cure his own fish?-There are other
circumstances as well which doubtless render him better off, but
that must improve his circumstances too.
4433. Where does he live?-At Gord. John Shewan, Scatness,
also cures his own fish himself. Laurence Shewan's fish were
purchased this year by Mr. Gilbert Irvine, and put into Mr. Bruce's
store; and I heard Mr. Irvine say that they were very good fish.
4434. Have you ever compared with any of your neighbours their
profits by curing their own fish with you own takings by selling
your fish green?-I have not; but there are other witnesses present
who have done so.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, examined.
4435. Are you a fisherman at Trosswick, and a tenant of land
under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.
4436. How far is Trosswick from Toab, where William Goudie
lives?-It is between two and three miles farther north.
4437. Have you heard the evidence which Goudie has given?-
Yes. It is all correct, so far as I know.
4438. You have heard his description of the way in which the fish
are delivered, and the way in which you hold your land, and the
way in which you purchase goods at the shop at Dunrossness, and
settle for them. Is that all correct?-It is.
4439. You deal in the same way with Mr. Bruce and his
shopkeeper?-Yes. I have very little concern with the store at
Grutness, because Mr. Bruce has another store at the place where I
deliver my fish, which is called Voe.
4440. What is the shopkeeper's name there?-Henry Isbister.
4441. Is that shop near Boddam?-Yes, it is just at Boddam.
4442. Is that store managed in much the same way Goudie has
described with regard to the store at Grutness?-No, not exactly in
the same way. Most of the things which are kept there are much
the same as in other places.
4443. Do you mean that the quality of the goods is the same?-
Yes, it is much the same as elsewhere.
4444. And you don't complain of the prices there?-No, not of the
things that I deal in myself.
4445. What are these-meal and tea?-No; I deal very little in
these things there, because it has pleased God that I could mend
myself in another way.
4446. In what way?-By going to another store.
4447. Then you are not obliged to deal with that store at all?-No,
I am not obliged to go to that store unless I like.
4448. Is that because you have ready money with which to buy at
another store?-Exactly.
4449. You have always got some money in your hands?-Yes.
4450. Do you sometimes buy in Lerwick?-Yes.
4451. But you also buy at Mr. Bruce's store at Voe?-Yes; some
trifling things, such as rope or iron hoop, or the like of that; and
these are sold at much the same prices there as I can get them for
at other places.
4452. Do you pay for them in ready money?-No.
4453. They are put into your account and settled for at the end of
the year?-Yes.
4454. Where do you get your provisions?-I get them sometimes
at Gavin Henderson's, and sometimes at Lerwick.
4455. What do you pay for meal by the boll at Henderson's?-I
could not exactly say, because I don't have to run an account for
that. Generally I pay for it at once.
4456. Then, at settling time with Mr Bruce, do you generally get a
large balance in cash?-Whether it is large or small, I get it in
cash at the beginning of the year, at the settling time.
4457. Do you sometimes get advances in the course of the year
while the fishing is going on?-Sometimes I do, if I require them.
4458. Have you often asked for advances of that kind?-I have.
4459. Have they ever been refused?-Never. I always got them
when I had money coming to me.
4460. Do you mean that you always got them when he was due
you money?-Yes. Sometimes, even if he had been due me a little
money, he might not perhaps have had money beside him to
supply me with; but when he had it I always got it, whether I had it
to get or not.
4461. What has been the amount of money due to you for fish
during the last two or three years?-I have a few receipts here
which will show that. [Produces accounts.]
4462. This account [showing] is for 1870; and it contains rent, £6;
roads, 4s. 6d.; poor-rate, 9s.: is that the tenant's half?-Yes.
4463. Then there is a charge, 'To share of rent of hill:' is that the
scattald which you hold along with your neighbours?-Yes; and
which the neighbouring landlord is not taking a rent for at all. It
all runs scattald together.
4464. Is the neighbouring landlord Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes.
4465. On his land, does the rent of the scattald come [Page 111]
into the rent of the farms?-There is no rent paid for the scattald at
all on his land. It is used in the same way by all the tenants.
4466. When was the additional payment charged against you first
for scattald?-Two years ago.
4467. Then there is cash for kirk seats, 3s.: why do you pay your
kirk seats through your landlord?-I have paid them all along
through him.
4468. Then there is-To account in Boddam shop, 18s. 61/2d.; to
account in Grutness shop, 1s. 9d.; and then on April 25, by cash,
£6, 14s. 7d.: that shows that you had not settled until April 25th?-
Yes.
4469. Are you often as late as that in settling?-No; that was the
latest I ever knew.
4470. Was it your fault that the settlement was so late?-No; I
should have liked to have settled sooner.
4471. Do you know any reason why you could not have settled
sooner, even in November, when the fishing was over?-I don't
know any reason for that, except that they did not want to do it.
That is the only way in which I can account for it.
4472. Have you asked for a settlement to be made with you at that
time?-I have not; because I thought there was no use doing it.
4473. There are entries here-by saith, by ling, by cod: were these
for small fish caught during the winter?-There was a company of
men who were pursuing the herring fishing; one part of the
company were trying to prosecute the saith fishing for a time, until
the others saw whether there were any herring to be got, and my
proportion was one-twelfth share of the fish caught at the time.
4474. That was an extra thing altogether?-Yes; and each man's
proportion was put in his account.
4475. Is the amount of cash paid you, £6, 14s. 7d., a usual sort of
sum for you to get at settlement?-No; it is sometimes smaller.
Sometimes it is nothing at all, and I have been in debt.
4476. Has that happened often?-Yes, it happened frequently for
some years before that. I have no accounts for these years.
4477. I see that in 1865 there is marked a balance of £2, 1s. 5d.
Was that a balance which was due by you the year before?-Yes.
4478. Then 1864 had been a bad year, and Mr. Bruce had
advanced you money above the price of your fish for that year?-
Yes.
4479. Was that money advanced to you after settlement?-No; it
was a balance that had been carried over some years before.
4480. When that balance was existing, did you consider yourself
obliged to deal in Mr. Bruce's shop rather than at another?-I was
obliged so far to deal at his shop, because I could not think of
going to another man and asking credit from him, when I saw no
way of making provision to pay him. I could not expect any man
to supply me in my necessity when I had no possible way of
repaying him.
4481. But you were already in Mr. Bruce's debt?-Yes, at that
time I was.
4482. Would you have been bound by that, supposing you had not
been bound by the terms on which you held your land, to deliver
your fish to Mr. Bruce, and to deal at his store?-No, I don't
believe I would, if I had been at liberty to deal elsewhere at any
other time.
4483. Have you ever paid any fines or liberty money for yourself
or for any of your family?-None whatever.
4484. Have you understood that you were liable to pay such
fines?-I understood that I was liable to pay a fine or to receive a
warning if I did not fish for my landlord.
4485. But would you have been liable to pay anything besides
being afraid of being removed?-I don't know anything about that.
4486. In 1865 you had got cash advances to the amount of £10, 7s.
2d., and your account at Mr. Bruce's store that year was only about
30s?-Yes.
4487. I suppose in that state of matters, you are pretty well content
with the state of things as they are?-I might be well enough
content with the state of things as they are, only I am bound to fish
for him alone, and for no other man.
4488. But you are not bound to deal at his store?-No; I don't
believe he compels any man to be bound to his store entirely.
4489. Is there really any compulsion, either direct or indirect, to
deal at his store?-No; not so far as I know.
4490. Even although you are in his debt, you are not bound to deal
at his store?-No; I don't believe he would oblige me to do that.
4491. But you have as much credit to deal at another man's store
as at his,-I mean you get an account opened as readily at another
man's store as at Mr. Bruce's?-Yes.
4492. When you are in debt to Mr. Bruce, is it as easy for you to
open an account at Mr. Henderson's store, and to get goods on
credit there, as to get goods Mr. Bruce's shop?-I might find it as
easy, only I don't know whether Mr. Henderson would be inclined
to give it to me.
4493. Do you think Mr. Henderson would not be as willing to give
it to you as Mr. Bruce's man at Voe?-I think he would not, if he
saw no way by which I was likely to pay him.
4494. Mr. Henderson, I understand, does not buy fish?-He does.
4495. But he knows that you would not be at liberty to sell your
fish to him?-Yes, he knows that.
4496. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if
you were selling them to him?-I don't believe I would get any
worse.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, examined.
4497. You are a fisherman at Dunrossness?-I am.
4498. Have you a piece of ground of your own?-I am not a
landholder. I live with my sister and brother-in-law.
4499. I have received a letter from Dunrossness, dated 30th
December and signed Henry Gilbertson: was that letter written by
you?-No. There is another person of that name living at
Dunrossness.
4500. How do you distinguish yourself from him?-I am a
fisherman, and he is a tailor.
4501. Is he a relation of yours?-He is my cousin.
4502. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie to-day: do
you know from your own experience that it is in the main
correct?-So far as my experience goes, I could not say that he has
deviated a single word from the truth.
4503. Were you, when young, employed as a beach boy?-No. I
would not go, because if they had bound me to that, I would have
left the island, as I did.
4504. Did you leave in order to avoid being employed as a beach
boy?-It was not exactly for that; but I was past being a beach boy
before Mr. Bruce took the fishing.
4505. You have now come back there, and employ yourself as a
fisherman in Mr. Bruce's boats?-Yes.
4506. Are you settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; in the
same way as the landholders are settled with.
4507. Do you run an account at the store in the same way, also?-
Yes, sometimes; but I am under no obligation to do so, because I
am a man who can get credit at any place.
4508. Do you consider yourself at liberty to fish for any person you
please to engage with?-Not at all. Although I sit as a lodger in
my brother-in-law's house, I am under the same obligation to fish
for Mr. Bruce as one who is a landholder.
4509. How is that?-Because if I did not do so, my brother-in-law
would be warned out for my offence.
4510. How do you know that?-Because I have evidence to prove
it in the case of a brother of my brother-in-law's, who dried a few
hundredweight of fish for himself, and for that offence his father
was warned out, and had to pay a fine of 31s. 6d. before he got
liberty to sit.
[Page 112]
4511. What was his name?-James Harper, sen.
4512. Was that long ago?-Six or seven years ago. I could not say
exactly to a season back or forward.
4513. Did you know of that case at the time from Harper
himself?-Yes, I was acquainted with the circumstance, and the
day before I came here the man told me he had to pay the money.
4514. So that has served you as a warning, since you came back to
live with your brother-in-law, that you must fish to Mr. Bruce?-
Yes.
4515. Do you think you would be better off if you were at liberty
to deliver your fish to any merchant you liked?-I would.
4516. In what way?-Because I could make more of them.
4517. Would you get a larger price for your fish?-Yes. I would
perhaps get a larger price; but then I would have a great advantage
too by curing them for myself.
4518. Do you think that would really be a great advantage?-
Decidedly; and I can prove it by the case of a man who has
prosecuted the fishing with me this very season, Laurence Leslie. I
was one of the crew with him.
4519. Don't you think he was particularly fortunate last year, and
that very often your fish might be spoiled in curing, and would not
bring so good a price?-We have all cured our fish before, and we
never lost anything worth speaking of in that way.
4520. Where have you cured your fish before?-In the same place
where I now live.
4521. Was that before these restrictions were laid upon the
tenantry?-Yes; one year before and one year since the restrictions
were laid on.
4522. Then you have done it since without being challenged?-
Yes; but it was by their own good-will that they allowed me to do
it.
4523. You had some favour shown you?-Yes.
4524. How did that happen?-They just told me they would not
disturb me, as I was a young man, and could either stop or go as I
thought fit.
4525. If you had been a tenant, you think you would not have had
the same liberty?-No, I would not.
4526. You say you can get the same credit at any other store that
you can get at Mr. Bruce's: do you mean that you can open an
account and get your things without paying for them until the end
of the season?-Yes.
4527. Can you do so at Gavin Henderson's store, for instance?-
Yes; or in Lerwick.
4528. But does the merchant with whom you would open an
account of that sort not know that you fish for Mr. Bruce, that you
are bound to deliver all your fish to him, and that you may at the
same time be running an account at his shop which would have a
preference at settlement over any account you might open in
Lerwick or at Henderson's?-I generally give them to understand
how I am circumstanced, and they advance me accordingly.
4529. Do you generally have a large balance in cash to receive
when settling with Mr. Bruce?-I have only prosecuted the fishing
there for three years; I have settled for two of these years, and for
this one I have not settled yet.
4530. Do you get an account when you settle with him?-Yes; I
have got a copy of it for one year. [Produces it.]
4531. Do you get that as a matter of course when you are settling
with Mr. Bruce?-I asked for it, and he did not refuse to give it to
me.
4532. This account is for the settlement which took place in April
last?-Yes.
4533. It shows-June 27, 1870, to cash for self, £1; Sept. 16, to
cash for self, £1; Dec. 22, to amount to credit of Paul Smith: what
does that mean?-It was a small sum I advanced a brother-in-law
of mine to help him to pay his rent. It was entered from my
account into his, and was the same as cash.
4534. Jan. 6, to cash for self, 10s.; to fine for swine, 2s. 6d.: what
was that fine for?-The landlord has a law that if you allow your
swine to go at large, and the officer for that purpose catches them
outside your house loose, he imposes a fine of 2s. 6d. upon you for
each offence.
4535. Is that law in the regulations of lease, or is it just an
understood thing?-It is understood to be a law that he has made.
4536. But you are not a landholder?-No; but the swine belonged
to me.
4537. Then there is, to a ticket and medal for 1871, 3s.: that is for
the Fishermen's Society?-Yes.
4538. March 15, to account per Henry Gilbertson, 3s. 4d.: what
was that?-That was a small balance that was advanced by him for
me to the other Henry Gilbertson.
4539. To 11/2 bushels salt from Scatness, 1s. 6d., by amount from
boat's account, £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the amount of your
earnings?-Yes.
4540. How many others were there in the boat?-There were six.
4541. Then, to account in Grutness, £3, 8s. 21/2d., to cash, £10, 15s.
81/2d.; in all £19, 4s. 31/2d.: that was the whole of your account for
that year?-Yes.
4542. Have you anything to say about the prices of the things you
get at Grutness store?-They are rather above the figure usually
paid for the same things in other parts of the country.
4543. Have you compared the prices there with the prices at which
you can get the same articles elsewhere?-Yes; for instance of
meal.
4544. Have you bought meal there?-Yes.
4545. Was it entered in the account you have shown me?-Yes;
but all my account at the shop, whatever it was for, was entered in
that account in one slump sum, so that the price cannot be
distinguished from that. There are no details given there of the
shop account.
4546. Were the details of that account read over to you?-Yes; or I
read it over.
4547. Did you find it to be correct?-Yes, generally.
4548. But you think the meal was charged higher than it could be
got for elsewhere?-I am sure of it.
4549. Do you remember what price it was charged at?-Yes.
4550. Did you take a note of it at the time?-I took a note of the
quantity at the time; but I did not know the price until settlement.
4551. Have you a pass-book at the store?-[Produces pass-book.]
That is what I keep for myself. These [showing] are the entries for
1870, the year to which the account applies. When I knew the
price of an article when I received it from the store, I put it down
in ink; but I did not know the price of the meal, and I put it down
in pencil when I came to settle.
4552. Here [showing] is half boll oatmeal, 11s?-Yes; and these
are the ranging prices in Lerwick for the same year: March 1870,
per boll oatmeal, 17s. 9d. May, 18s. 6d.; July, 20s.; August, 21s.
4553. Where did you get these?-I got them from a merchant in
Lerwick this morning, Mr. John Robertson, sen. The note
containing them is in his own handwriting.
4554. Did he refer to his books before telling you what the prices
were?-Yes, he turned up his accounts for that year.
4555. And these are the prices at which he told you he sold meal
here?-Yes.
4556. For cash or for credit?-I cannot say.
4557. Have you ever been directed by Mr. Bruce or Mr. Irvine to
look after men who were supposed to be selling their fish to other
curers?-I have.
4558. You shake your head in a very serious way at that: did you
not like the job?-I did not.
4559. When was it that you were told to do that?-At last
settlement.
4560. That would be in April 1870?-Yes.
4561. Were there some men who were supposed to be inclined to
sell their fish to some others?-Yes.
4562. Was any particular man named to you, or was it just a
general direction to look after them?-There was just a general
direction given to us to inform them of any men who did so.
[Page 113]
4563. Did you keep a lookout for that?-No; I have not gone to
look yet.
4564. Have you seen any of the men endeavouring to sell their fish
to other people-to Messrs. Hay & Co. for instance, or to Mr.
Gavin Henderson?-I have seen them selling to Messrs. Hay &
Co.
4565. Were these the small fish caught in the winter, or were they
part of the catch of the boats that went to the summer fishing and
the haaf fishing?-They were the small fish caught in the winter. I
never saw any of the summer fish sold by any of Mr. Bruce's
tenants to Messrs. Hay & Co.
4566. I suppose there is a greater inclination to sell the small fish
caught in the winter for ready money than the summer fish?-Yes.
4567. Why are the men readier to do that?-Because, when they
sell their fish to Messrs. Hay & Co., the merchant knows what he
intends to give for them; and daily and nightly, when the fish have
been delivered, they go to Hay & Co.'s store and get the value for
them, and there is no more about it.
4568. They settle for them at once?-Yes,
4569. In money or in goods?-Generally in goods; but Messrs.
Hay's man will give them a shilling or so; whereas, if they had to
go to Mr. Bruce's store with them, they would not know what they
were to get until the settlement, neither would they get the goods
at so low a figure.
4570. They get the goods cheaper at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes, a little.
4571. Is there any other article than meal the price of which you
have compared with what it could be got for at other stores?-Not
particularly, because I have not had much dealings at the store, as I
generally dealt with other merchants.
4572. Is there anything else you wish to add to what you have said
or to what the other men have said?-Nothing particular.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN HARPER, examined.
4573. Are you a fisherman at Lingord, Dunrossness?-I am.
4574. Do you hold land there under Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?-
Yes.
4575. Do you hold it subject to the condition of delivering your
fish to Mr. Bruce in the same way that the other men have spoken
to?-Yes.
4576. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, Laurence
Smith, and Henry Gilbertson?-Yes.
4577. Have they described correctly the way in which you deal at
Mr. Bruce's shop for goods?-Quite correctly, so far as my
experience goes.
4578. Do you deal in the same way?-Yes; but I deal very little
there.
4579. Where do you get your goods?-I get them at different
places, but my chief dealings are at Gavin Henderson's. I have
also some dealings at Mr. Bruce's store at Boddam, kept by Henry
Isbister, which is close beside where I live.
4580. Do you generally receive a large balance at the end of the
year in cash?-Yes, I am always paid in cash.
4581. How much of a balance in cash did you get last year?-I
cannot remember exactly; and I have no copy of my account.
4582. Was it £5 or £6, or more?-I think it was £5 or £6, and the
rest of my earnings went to pay my land rent and shop accounts.
4583. Have you made any comparison as to the prices of goods at
the Boddam shop and the prices at which you could get them
elsewhere?-I have not made a strict comparison, but the Boddam
shop and the other shops do not differ much in most things.
4584. Have you anything to add to what has been said by the other
witnesses?-We would be very happy to have the liberty of curing
our fish ourselves.
4585. Have you tried that?-Yes; I have tried it in former times
before I was taken under Mr. Bruce.
4586. Where was that?-At the same place where I am fishing yet.
4587. You had your liberty then?-Yes.
4588. Do you think that in those days you made a larger profit on
your fish than you do now?-I did; but there would be a difficulty
in doing that now, unless we had the power of using the beaches to
dry our fish on. If we did not have that power, we could make
nothing of it at all
4589. In those days the price of fish would be quite different from
what it is now? It would be much lower when you used to cure
your own fish?-In the former part of the time when I used to cure
them it was lower than it is now, and indeed it was rather lower all
through. I don't know exactly what those that cured their own fish
this year have got for dried fish, but I think I got 10s. 6d. per cwt.
of dried saith of my own curing during the last year when I cured
them.
4590. What is the price now for cured fish?-I have heard that it is
12s.
4591. I suppose there was not much difference in those days in the
price of cured fish?-No; but it did differ according to seasons.
Every season was not exactly alike.
4592. Would that be twelve years ago?-Yes.
4593. In what way have you calculated that you would make more
profit upon the fish of your own curing than is paid to you by Mr.
Bruce?-I have just made a calculation in my own mind according
to the quantity of fish I caught then and what I catch now. It is
merely a calculation of my own, and I do not say it is exactly
correct.
4594. Did you make that calculation lately?-No; only I have
always been of that opinion since I was obliged to deliver my fish
to Mr. Bruce.
4595. Have you not made a note of the value of your green fish,
the expense of materials for curing, and the value of the labour
that you would require to put upon them, in order to ascertain
whether you would get as much for your cured fish as you do for
your green, or more?-I have paid some attention to that matter;
but of course, in any case where a man dries his fish for himself,
he must expect to have a little more work than he has when
delivering them green. There would thus be extra expense for my
own labour.
4596. There would also be the price for salt, and other things
required, in the curing?-Yes; we would have to calculate all
these things.
4597. Would you not be at a disadvantage from not having vats
and other apparatus suitable for curing?-There would be rather
a disadvantage in that way now, but there was not such a
disadvantage formerly, because we had these things; and when we
were stopped from curing for ourselves, we had to dispose of them
as we had no use for them.
4598. Did each fisherman commonly possess these things?-Yes,
at that time.
4599. Or was it each boat's crew who owned these implements?-
Yes.
4600. Each boat's crew had a supply of apparatus for curing their
fishing?-Yes, for their own use. They generally had a vat and
other instruments according to what they required.
4601. Do you think they were as skilful in the use of these
instruments as the curers are now?-I don't think they were very
much behind, because the curer who cures the fish we catch now
was formerly a fisherman, as I am myself. Further than the
experience of years may have taught him, he knew nothing better
about it than I did, for I cured fish when I was a beach boy, and I
was also the head in it all through, until I was stopped from curing.
4602. In forming that opinion with regard to the profit which you
would have by curing your own fish, have you taken into account
the risk of having your own fish spoiled in the curing?-Of course
we must run that risk.
4603. Then you might gain something in one year, but in another
you might lose to some extent in the [Page 114] curing?-That is
quite possible; but still, in the experience I formerly had, the loss
was nothing to speak of.
4604. For how many years did you cure your own fish?-For a
good many, perhaps five years. There is one thing I should like to
state which has not been mentioned already; but I don't exactly
know how far it will fall within your inquiry. That is about the
days' works which are required from us in addition to our land
rent.
4605. What do you mean by days' works?-It is labour imposed
upon the tenants by the landlord. They must work three days'
work in summer. We don't exactly work these days' works in
summer where we live; but we are bound to carry a boat of peats
to those who live near Sumburgh, which stands in place of our
three days in summer. Then we have to work three days in
harvest, and three days in vore (<i.e.> spring). Thirty hours, if I
remember right, is what they exact; and we get nothing for it, not
even a supply of victuals. We have to carry our victuals with us
when we are to do our work there.
4606. Is not that really part of the rent which you pay for your
land?-We don't suppose so, because our land is valued, and we
have to pay for it in cash, or it is taken off our account.
4607. You mean that you have to pay your rent in cash, and to give
the days' works besides?-Yes; and we have to pay a poultry fowl
for each merk of land.
4608. Is not that really just part of your bargain for the land?-It is
the way we have done hitherto.
4609. If you were agreed, would not the landlord commute these
services and payments into a money payment. You might make a
bargain to give him so much money, and thus get rid of these
things?-I have never disputed these things; but I believe they
have been spoken of to him, and he does not appear willing to
relieve us of the burden, which we think is rather hard one.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE LESLIE, examined.
4610. Are you a fisherman and tenant under Mr. Bruce at Mill of
Garth, Dunrossness?-I am a fisherman, but not exactly a tenant.
4611. You don't hold land?-It is much the same. The land is
held in my father's name, and I live with him.
4612. Are you bound to fish to Mr. Bruce, as being one of your
father's family?-Yes.
4613. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and the
other witnesses from Dunrossness. Do you think it is generally
correct?-I think it is generally correct; but Laurence Smith did
not appear to know much about the shop at Boddam, except for
ropes and iron, and so on, which is much about the same price as
elsewhere.
4614. Can you say anything more about that shop than he did?-
The tea, cotton, canvas, and moleskins are all much higher there
than at Henderson's. I have no note of the price at Henderson's;
but I have notes of the prices at Boddam in my pass-books.
4615. What is the price of moleskins at the Boddam shop?-I
don't know if I have the price of any moleskins here.
4616. Is this [showing] your pass-book at the Boddam store?-
Yes.
4617. Is it kept by the shopkeeper there?-It is kept by Isbister. I
took it back and forward every time I got goods, and had them
entered there. That book is for 1868.
4618. I see it is for Hans Leslie, and not for George Leslie. Is your
father's name Hans?-Yes.
4619. This book only comes down to February 1869. Have you
not kept a pass-book since then?-Yes; but it is not settled yet.
4620. Is that account from March 1867 to February 1869
[showing] not settled?-Yes, it is settled; but the account for 1870
is not settled yet. I have it in another pass-book, because this one
had fallen aside.
4621. And you have now another one in the hands of the
shopkeeper?-Yes.
4622. Do you know the prices which were charged against you for
goods in 1870?-No. I have seen them in the pass-book when I
had it at home; but don't remember what they were.
4623. But the settlement for 1870 is past?-Yes; it was 1871 I was
thinking of.
4624. But there is nothing in this book for 1870?-No. This
[producing another book] is the book for 1870 up till the
settlement of 1871.
4625. Have you no pass-book in your possession later than that?-
No.
4626. Show me some of the things in that book which are charged
higher to you than you could have got them elsewhere?-I say that
tea and cotton are generally charged higher. I have had very little
cotton from that shop, but I have asked the prices, and found them
much higher than at Henderson's, so that I took what cotton I
wanted from Henderson's shop, and not from the shop at Boddam.
4627. Were you quite at liberty to deal at Henderson's shop if you
liked?-Yes; we were at liberty in the way that some of the other
men have described. If we did not have the prospect of paying
what we were due, then we did not want to run into debt to a
number of men.
4628. Have you generally ready money that you can go to
Henderson's with?-No.
4629. What is the reason of that? Is it on account of the long
settlement?-That is a thing which has something to do with it,
and sometimes I have not had money to get at settlement; but
when I asked for an advance from Mr. Bruce, I always got it.
4630. I see from this book that cotton is 1s. a yard at the Boddam
shop: I suppose that was the price then?-It has sometimes been
1s., and it has sometimes been higher.
4631. I see there is tea at 10d. a quarter: is that the best tea they
sell at that store?-They seldom have any but one sort.
4632. Do you generally get all the articles you want at the Boddam
shop?-Yes.
4633. Would you like to have a greater number of things to choose
from than there are there?-No. We do not take anything there
except what we cannot do without. We wish rather to take it at
another place.
4634. Only you cannot always get credit at another place?-I
never was refused credit, only I did not like to run a heavy account
with another man who was having no profit but upon his goods.
4635. Would you have been more ready to deal with Henderson if
you had been at liberty to sell your fish to him too?-Yes.
4636. Is there a fair price charged for soap at the Boddam shop?-
There is not very much difference of price upon it. The soap
generally is pretty fair at Boddam.
4637. I see here an entry of 11/2 lines, 3s. 5d.: are these lines for
your fishings?-Yes.
4638. Is the price of lines there as moderate as at other places?-
The lines differ in quality. Sometimes we have them as good there
as in other places, and at other times not so good.
4639. But what about the price of them? Are they as cheap there
as at other places?-If the quality is as good, they are. [Produces
another pass-book.]
4640. Is this the book in which you enter the fish as they are
delivered?-Yes.
4641. Who enters them there?-Myself. It is example of how we
mark down the fish. That book contained an account which I had
running with Gavin Henderson in 1867, and I afterwards used it as
a fish book with Mr. Bruce.
4642. You enter the fish in this book, and Mr. Bruce's factor
enters them in a book of his own besides?-Yes.
4643. Do all the boats' crews keep books in which they enter their
fish in the same way?-So far as I know they do.
[Page 115]
4644. Is that the only way you have of checking the amount of fish
you get?-Yes.
4645. At the end of the year you see the quantity you have
delivered as it is entered in the landlord's book, and you see that
you get credit for it in your account with Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ROBERT HALCROW, examined.
4646. You are a fisherman at Lasettar, in Dunrossness, and you
hold land from Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes.
4647. You are bound to deliver your fish to his factor, and you
settle at the end of the year in the same way as William Goudie
and the other men have described?-Yes.
4648. You have heard all their evidence?-Yes.
4649. Is there anything you wish to add to it or correct in it?-
Nothing.
4650. Do you know anything about the knitting which is done by
the women in Dunrossness?-There is a little knitting done in my
family. It might be more agreeable to some people to be paid in
cash than in goods; but others again say that if they did not get the
same price in cash for their hosiery as they get in truck, they would
not be gainers.
4651. Do they want the goods they get for the hosiery?-Yes; and
they might not get the same price for their knitting in money as
they get for it in barter.
4652. Do you know the price which they get in goods from the
merchants in Lerwick?-Yes.
4653. Would they not get the same goods at a lower price in
money, at any of the shops in your neighbourhood?-I am not
aware of that.
4654. You have never heard them say that?-No. With regard to
the evidence which has been given by the other men, I may be
allowed to say that perhaps I have had a little more experience
than some of them, but the statements which they have given have
just been what I would have made myself.
4655. How long have you been on the property?-For eleven or
twelve years.
4656. Did you receive a notice, when young Mr. Bruce became
tacksman, that you were expected to fish for him?-I did not
receive any notice; but I was missed; he passed over me.
4657. Why was that?-I was taking in uncultivated ground to build
a house upon, and I did not pay rent then.
4658. Were you aware that a notice of that kind was given to the
tenants?-Yes.
4659. Is there any one here who received that notice?-I don't
think any one received the notice individually, but there was a
public notice that they were bound to fish for Mr. Bruce, and that
they would be removed if they did not do so.
4660. How was that notice given?-By a bill placed in a public
place for the tenants at large to see.
4661. Did you see it?-No, I did not see it. With regard to the
Boddam shop, I have had dealings there, and also with Gavin
Henderson; but there are things I require which are not kept in the
Boddam shop at all.
4662. What articles do you want that you cannot get there?-I
want some kind of clothing which they do not keep, and several
other things; but the things they have, such as tea, tobacco, cotton
and canvas, I find to be somewhat dearer than at Mr. Henderson's
or in Lerwick.
4663. How much dearer is the tobacco?-It will be a penny or
twopence a quarter lb.
4664. Have you bought tobacco at both places?-Yes.
4665. What have you to say with regard to the tea?-It is from 4d.
to 8d. dearer per pound.
4666. Have you tried it at both places also?-Yes.
4667. Do you think you get the same quality at both?-It is the
same quality. I have had to pay sometimes 9d. and sometimes
10d. per quarter for tea at the Boddam shop; and when I went to
Mr. Henderson's shop, I got the same tea for 8d.
4668. So far as you could judge, was the tea at both places of the
same quality?-Yes, so far as I could judge, it was. Then for the
cotton I would pay 2d., and sometimes more than that, per yard
more in the Boddam shop than in Gavin Henderson's, or at other
places.
4669. But if the prices are so much higher at the Boddam shop
than elsewhere, why do you go there when you say you are not
obliged in any way to take goods from the Boddam shop? Why do
you not go to Gavin Henderson's for them?-I am obliged to go to
the Boddam shop and take my goods there if I have no money in
my pocket to buy them elsewhere.
4670. Does that often happen?-Perhaps not very often with me,
but it happens as a general thing among many of the men. I
believe there are as many men who have to go to Mr. Bruce's
store, and take their goods there, in consequence of the want of
money to pay for them at other places, as there are who can go and
open accounts with other merchants and pay them yearly.
4671. Is there anything else you can say about that?-There is
nothing more concerning that; but I have one thing more to say
concerning our bondage, or our liberty, in fishing to Mr. Bruce. I
have never had any help in paying rent or purchasing meal for my
living, or such things as I required for clothing, except from what I
could earn myself. I have sometimes had little clear money to get,
and sometimes I have been from £2 to £6 behind in my accounts
with Mr. Bruce, but he never charged me anything for that. I was
fishing to him, and obedient to him, and he never interfered with
me until my earnings paid up my debt account; but he would give
me supplies although was in his debt, and if I got money from him,
even when I was in his debt, I was at perfect liberty to go where I
liked for the goods I wanted. If I ran up an account at any other
shop, he gave me money and I settled it; and then at settlement
time, if I had any money remaining to come to me, I got it in cash
after he had deducted the value of any goods I might have got from
his store.
4672. But when you were in his debt at the end of the year, in the
way you have stated, were you obliged to go to his store for your
provisions, and your supplies of cotton and clothing?-I would be
obliged to do so, unless I could work at any other trade, or do any
other thing during the winter by which I could earn money to
purchase things at other stores. I may work outside, or do a little
mason work, in order to get some money; and he will not bind me
so much as if he were to see me earning nothing, but he would
allow me to keep that money, and go to other stores with it, and
purchase what I required. If I have a cow or a horse to sell, I can
sell it, and he will never inquire or push me for the balance. I can
get my money for it, and go to other stores for my meal and several
things.
4673. If you sell a beast off your farm, while you are in debt to
him, he does not object to you applying the price as you like?-He
has made no objection; but when a man is in debt to him, he
expects to get the first offer of it.
4674. He expects that a man who is in his debt will offer his cow
or his pony to him first?-Yes, he looks for that; he has always
expected it.
4675. When that is done, who fixes the price?-He will state his
price; and if the owner is dissatisfied with it, he will give him a
chance of offering it at public sale.
4676. And when it is offered at public sale, what is done then?-
The sale is generally in Mr. Bruce's own hand, and the purchaser
gives him the money; and then the owner who disposes of the
animal will go to him if he is in want of supplies, and he will
probably get them.
4677. Are there sales in your district at certain times?-Yes.
[Page 116]
4678. Where do these take place?-At Dunrossness, near the
church; twice a year, in the spring, and in the fall.
4679. Is it at these sales that you have a chance of selling your
beasts, if you do not agree with Mr. Bruce about the price?-Yes.
4680. And at these sales is there perfect liberty to any person to
bid?-Yes.
4681. You can sell them to any person who bids a higher price
than the laird offers?-Yes; but the conditions of sale are that the
purchaser has to pay the money to Mr. Bruce.
4682. Is that one of the conditions and articles of roup which are
read over at the commencement of the sale?-Yes.
4683. Does that condition apply to every lot that is sold, or only to
lots that belong to men that are in Mr. Bruce's debt?-It applies to
every lot that is sold. On all the properties there, on Simbister, and
Mr. Grierson's estate and Sumburgh estate the cattle are called in;
people who have cattle to sell are asked to bring them in to the
sale.
4684. But nobody is obliged to expose their cattle at these sales
unless they please?-There have been cases where we were
obliged to dispose of them: for instance, if a man was very deeply
in debt, he would be so far forced to bring his cattle and sell them;
and the money went into Mr. Bruce's hands, and was put to the
man's credit.
4685. You mean that it was credited to the man's account that was
settled at the end of the year?-Yes. When young Mr. Bruce first
began to take charge of the Sumburgh estate he wished to have all
the tenants clear; and for that purpose he published a sale, and
forced one of the tenants to bring his effects there, in order that his
debts might be paid off. At the sale, Mr. Bruce himself appeared
and gave a far higher price than the current price for the material
which was being sold, in order to bring the man out of debt.
4686. Who was that man?-Malcolm Irvine, Lasettar. That is the
only case of that kind I am acquainted with; but I believe there are
more cases of the same kind throughout the parish, where Mr.
Bruce paid a higher price for the articles than the market value of
them, in order to bring the men out of debt. Of course, that was a
favour to the men.
4687. Then, these sales are always fair transactions?-I think they
are fair, so far as we can discern, because they do not differ in any
way from other sales throughout the island. The terms and
conditions of roup are the same at them all.
4688. Is there anything else you wish to say?-There is only forty
days' warning given before Martinmas. No doubt that may be well
enough for tenants in a town like Lerwick, who hold nothing
except a room to live in, but it is very disagreeable for a tenant
holding a small piece of land as we do. As soon as our crop is
taken in, we must start work immediately, and prepare the land for
next season. We have to make provision for manure, and collect
our peats, and prepare stuff for thatching our houses, and perhaps
by Martinmas we have expended from £6 to £10 worth of labour
and expense on our little farms. In that case, it is a very hard thing
for us to be turned out of our holdings after receiving only forty
days' notice, and perhaps only getting £1, or £2, for all that labour.
Now, what I would suggest that instead of that short notice we
should be entitled to receive a longer notice, perhaps six or nine
months before the term, that we are to be turned out.
4689. Do you think you would be more at liberty to dispose of
your fish, and to deal at any shop you pleased, if you were entitled
to that longer warning?-I don't think the warning would alter
anything with regard to that; but if I knew that I was to be turned
out at Martinmas, I would probably start fishing earlier, and I
might have a larger price to get for them instead of working upon
my land.
4690. But you can be punished more easily by your landlord for
selling your fish to another man, when he can turn you out on forty
days' warning, than if he could only do it on six or eight months'
warning?-I think it would be much the same with regard to that.
4691. You don't think that would make any difference as to the
fishing?-It might make a little difference, because if I received
my warning in March, and knew that I was to leave at Martinmas,
if I saw that I was to have a better price for my fish from another, I
would not fish to my landlord at all; but I would go to any man I
would get the best price from.
4692. Do you think you would be better off if you had your fish
paid for as they are delivered?-I don't think that would serve
me any better. It would serve young men who are not landholders
better; but I don't think it would serve landholders better than to
allow the price to lie, and to settle once in a season, because
sometimes our crops are so scanty that we have only perhaps
two parts or three-fourths of a regular supply of meal for our
living; and if I got the price of my fish paid to me every time when
I came ashore, or on the Saturday night, we might perhaps live
comfortably for awhile, but then at Martinmas, when our rents
were due, and our fishing earnings were spent, we would be in a
hard case, because where would our rents come from?
4693. Do you think you would be likely to spend your earnings as
you got them?-In some cases that would be so, because
occasionally we have to live on a very small allowance of
provisions, perhaps one-half or three-fourths, and we suffer from
that. I think it is better if the money for our fishing is preserved
for a time in our landlord's hands; because, in the first place, we
like to have our rents paid.
4694. Would it be any advantage to you to have the price of your
fish fixed at the beginning of the season?-It might and it might
not, because here in Shetland we are paid for our fish according to
a currency. The principal curers in the country arrange what the
price is to be, and, so far as I know, they have it in their own
power to make the currency whatever they think fit.
4695. Do you think the current price is fairly fixed?-I cannot
judge of that, nor can any one outside, because I don't know what
has been realized for the fish in the south. It is a matter which
rests upon their own conscience, whether the merchants fix a fair
current price or not.
4696. But you think they have the fixing of it?-Yes, they do fix it.
4697. Do you think it right that they should have the fixing of it,
and that you should have nothing to say to it, when it is according
to that price that you are paid?-We have no experience in the
matter, or else we should have a voice in it.
4698. If you were at liberty to cure and sell your own fish, would
you not have something to say in fixing the market price at which
the fish were to be paid?-I think we would.
4699. Supposing the price of your fish were settled at the
beginning of the season, and that you knew then what it was to be,
do you think you would manage your purchases during the season
better than you do now, according as you took a large or a small
quantity of fish?-I don't think so.
4700. If you were only taking a small take of fish, you would see,
as the season went on, that you could not have a large balance at
the end of the year?-I don't think that would matter much for me.
It might do for a family in which there were two or three men but
for a man who held a certain tack of land, and had to support a
family, I don't think it would be any advantage. In my case, there
is only myself earning anything, and it takes the greater part of my
fishing, year by year, to pay for my meal and land rent.
4701. I suppose what you mean is, that you are obliged to live at a
certain rate of expenditure, and that you cannot reduce that rate
any lower, however poor your fishing may be?-No, I cannot.
4702. So that you must take the bad years and the good years, and
make up in a good year for what you have gone behind in a bad
one?-Yes, that is what I mean.
[Page 117]
4703. Therefore the present system suits you as well as any
other?-It does.
4704. You could not economize more, although you knew what
you were to receive at the end of the year?-I don't see that I
could.
4705. And you could not manage your money any better, although
you had it in your hands, and could spend it in Lerwick, or in any
other store, except that at Boddam?-I don't see that I could. I
have not taken any meal from Mr. Bruce now for three years, but I
have taken a good deal of things out of his stores.
4706. Have you got your meal from your own ground?-No.
During the past season I had to buy very little; but since I came to
the place I am now in, I have sometimes had to buy seven, and
eight, and nine months' provisions, besides what my own labour
upon my farm could yield.
4707. Where did you buy your meal then?-At that time I had
some from Mr. Bruce, and some from other places.
4708. But I am talking of the last three years, when you did not
buy any of it from Mr. Bruce?-I have had it from Lerwick, and
also from a store at Sand Lodge. Lebidden is the name of the
place where the store is.
4709. Whose store is that?-Thomas Tullochs's.
4710. Why did you buy it from these stores rather than from the
store at Boddam?-Because I could get it cheaper; I would pay
some money for it at these other stores.
4711. What did you get it for there?-I don't recollect the price.
4712. I suppose the price varied?-Yes.
4713. And you got it at that price by paying it at the time you got
it?-Yes; I got it at as low a price as it could be got anywhere.
Besides, I took weaker qualities of grain as being cheaper than
what Mr. Bruce had, such as second flour or third flour, and so on,
when Mr. Bruce, would have had nothing but barleymeal and
oatmeal.
4714. Does he only keep one quality of meal at Boddam store?-
He keeps more than one quality, because he has had grain from his
own farm to supply his fishermen and tenants with; and he has also
had Orkney meal there, which was cheaper than Scotch meal.
4715. But you say that you could get weaker qualities than what
Mr. Bruce kept. Do you mean that the qualities were inferior?-
Yes.
4716. Were they inferior to any that Mr. Bruce had?-Not to what
grew on his own farm, but to any that he had at that time, or what
he generally kept.
4717. But I am talking of the last three years during which you
have had none from Mr. Bruce. Were the qualities at the other
stores inferior to what Mr. Bruce kept?-When I was having none
from Mr. Bruce I did not know exactly what qualities he had.
4718. But you knew that what you were getting was cheaper than
what you could get at his store?-Yes, I knew that.
4719. Is there anything more you wish to say?-No; I think that is
all.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE SMITH, recalled.
4720. I believe you saw the bill, which was put up when Mr. Bruce
came, to which the witness Halcrow referred?-Yes, I saw it.
There was a man sent round among the tenants with a letter, and
he read it to them.
4721. Who was the man?-He is dead: it was John Harper, Virkie.
4722. To whom was the letter addressed?-To the tenants
generally. Sometimes when he came to a town, he called the
tenants together and read it to them; and when he met one of the
tenants by himself, he just read it over to him.
4723. Were the tenants called together at Trosswick, where you
live?-Yes.
4724. Was the letter read over to the whole of them at once?-
Yes.
4725. Did you hear it?-Yes.
4726. Do you remember its terms?-I do not; but the letter was
from old Mr. Bruce, and the substance of it was, that he had given
us over into the hands of his son.
4727. As tacksman?-He did not say whether it was as tacksman
or not, but he said that the penalty of our not fishing to him would
be that we should get our warning.
4728. Was it stated in the letter that young Mr. Bruce was setting
up as a fish-curer?-I could not exactly say, but it was known to
the tenants that he was going to do so.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON, recalled.
4729. I believe you were at Fair Isle three weeks ago?-Yes; three
or four weeks ago, with a smack belonging to Mr. Bruce.
4730. Was that for the purpose of delivering supplies of provisions
to the people on the island?-It was for the purpose of landing two
men on the island, one of whom was to be a farmer, and the other
was a mason to build dykes.
4731. Had you been there before?-Never.
4732. Did you meet with any of the people while you were there,
and talk with them about the way in which their shop was
supplied?-Yes, I met almost all of them, and I got some
information about how they deal at the shop, because they inquired
at me at what prices the articles were sold in Shetland.
4733. Are the people there supplied with provisions and goods
from the shop at Dunrossness?-No; there is a shop on the island
which is supplied from the shop at Dunrossness.
4734. Do you know anything: about the prices of goods at the shop
on Fair Isle?-There was a man belonging to the island-I don't
know his name-who told me that he had paid 1s. 4d. per quarter
for tobacco. There was a general complaint that the prices were
above the currency charged in Shetland.
4735. Did the people seem to think that there was a better way in
which they could be supplied?-Yes; they seemed to think that if
they had their liberty to sell their fish, to the best advantage, they
could supply themselves from Orkney or Shetland with goods at a
cheaper rate than they could get them for in Mr. Bruce's store in
Fair Isle.
4736. Do you think anybody would be willing to go to Fair Isle to
buy fish and sell goods?-There were plenty would do so if they
had the chance. Mr. James Smith, of Hill Cottage, Sandwick
parish, used to go there, but he was stopped from doing so by Mr.
Bruce when he bought the island.
4737. Did the people on the island speak as if they were worse
used than they had been formerly?-They spoke as if they got their
articles cheaper from Mr. Smith than they could get them now.
4738. How long were you on the island?-I was there for eight
days, and I was in almost every house.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HANS SMITH, examined.
4739. You are the master of a smack which sometimes visits Fair
Isle for Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
4740. Do you take a quantity of goods to the shop there from the
shop at Dunrossness?-Yes, sometimes from the shop at
Dunrossness, and sometimes the [Page 118] goods are ordered
from the south; and we get them from the steamer at Lerwick, and
take them direct to the island.
4741. Do you know anything about the prices at which these goods
are charged at the shop on the island?-No; I could not speak
positively about that.
4742. Do you know whether the people on the island are satisfied
with the supplies which you take to them?-They are satisfied
with them so far; but they object to the price realized for their fish
as being lower than what is paid in Shetland. I think that is about
the only thing they object to. Of course they also think that the
prices for the goods are dear; but still they are not so much
dissatisfied with that.
4743. I suppose it involves a little expense to get the goods carried
from the mainland to Fair Isle?-Of course it does.
4744. There is a risk from the weather in taking them there?-Yes;
there is a risk of damage, and there is not a safe harbour there.
4745. Does any one trade to Fair Isle except your smack?-No, not
regularly. There are some people who go in occasionally, but
there are no others who go very often from Shetland. There is one
boat belonging to James Rendall, of Westray, in Orkney, that goes
occasionally.
4746. Is it within your knowledge that other traders are not
allowed to go to Fair Isle to sell their goods there?-Yes; I believe
the people are not allowed to buy from them. They do not exactly
stop them; but I think they tried to do it.
4747. Have you known that being done at any time when you were
at the island?-I think I have been there twice when James
Rendall was there; and he chiefly sold in the night time when I
was asleep, and I did not know what was going on.
4748. Why was that?-I don't know. I never asked him why he
did it. The people are scarcely allowed either to sell to him or buy
from him.
4749. Was it not because the factor forbade him to sell to the
people at all that he dealt with them during the night?-Of course
the factor forbade him from dealing with them, and he would have
noticed if Rendall had dealt with them in the day time. I don't
think the people were so much stopped from buying from him as
they were stopped from selling to him. They were not allowed to
sell any cattle or horse, or anything they had, to him.
4750. How do you know that?-Because I saw it myself. I have
heard the factor and the people talking about it, and I know they
were not allowed to sell.
4751. Have you heard the factor forbidding them to sell their cattle
to Rendall?-Yes; they have told me themselves that it was £2 of a
fine if they sold anything to him.
4752. Whom have you heard the factor forbidding to sell to
Rendall?-I have heard the factor talking to lots of them about it.
There was one, Thomas Wilson for instance; he was forbidden.
4753. Do you know that he wished to sell cattle to Rendall?-Yes;
I know that he had a cow last year for which Rendall offered him
£5, 10s. on the island, and he was afraid to sell her to him. The
factor told him he had better not sell her.
4754. Was it in your presence that he told him so?-Yes; and
Wilson came over to Shetland with us; I don't remember what he
got for the cow here, but I think it was £4, 1s.
4755. You brought the cow over to Shetland yourself?-Yes.
4756. Who was the factor?-Jerome Wilson.
4757. Did he tell Thomas Wilson that he must not sell his cow
because he was in arrear of rent, or in debt?-No; he was not in
debt; he had some cash to get at the time of settlement.
4758. How do you know that?-Because he told me himself. I
went home with him to his house, when he settled last summer,-I
think in June or July.
4759. Do you know of your own knowledge that the cow
afterwards sold for £4, 1s. in Shetland?-I think that was what it
sold for.
4760. Did you see it sold?-No; but Thomas Wilson told me about
it. I was at the sale that day. I was not present when the cow was
sold, but Wilson told me about it at night.
4761. Do you buy hosiery from the Fair Isle people?-The factor,
Mr. Wilson, buys it for Mr. Bruce.
4762. Do you sometimes bring it over here?-Yes.
4763. You don't know anything about the way in which the people
are paid for it?-I don't know.
4764. Is Jerome Wilson likely to be in Shetland soon?-I don't
know whether he is or not, but I don't think it. He just buys up the
hosiery, and then sends it over to Mr. Bruce. I think the people get
goods chiefly for it; but I am not sure. I have seen it sold, and seen
them getting goods for it.
4765. Have you seen anybody else buying it on the island? Have
you ever bought any of it?-No; not much.
4766. But you have bought a little?-I have bought a pair of
stockings; that was all.
4767. Did you pay cash for them?-Yes.
4768. What do the people do with their money in Fair Isle?-I am
sure I don't know; they have not much to do with it there.
4769. They cannot purchase goods with it?-They can purchase
goods; because when we are going in with the smack, they are
always going out and in, and they are glad to get as much money
as possible. There are none of the people out of the island just
now that I know of.
4770. When will you be going back to it?-Not until the month of
April, or the 1st of May.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ROBERT MALCOLMSON, examined.
4771. You are a fisherman and tenant on Mr. Bruce's lands at
Northtown of Exnaboe?-I am.
4772. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie and
Laurence Smith?-Yes.
4773. Does it give a fair account of the way in which you deal in
fish and purchase goods with Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh?-Yes, it
gives an accurate account of it, so far as my experience goes.
4774. Were you a beach boy when you were young?-Not to Mr.
Bruce. At that time the men had their liberty and cured their fish
for themselves.
4775. Do you know anything about the way in which beach boys
are dealt with now?-No.
4776. None of your family or friends are beach boys?-None.
4777. Have you known of any case in which a man was turned out,
or threatened to be turned out of his ground for selling his fish to
another than the proprietor?-Yes; I know one case. That was the
case of Thomas Harper, James Harper's son, who was referred to
before.
4778. That was a good many years ago?-Yes.
4779. Is there anything you wish to add to what has been said by
the other men?-Nothing, so far as I remember.
4780. Do you think you would make any more of your fish if you
were allowed to cure them for yourself?-We generally think so.
4781. Have you ever made any calculation about that?-According
to hearsay from other quarters, and contrasting our case with
theirs, we have a rough idea that we would make more on the
whole.
4782. Do you think there is any disadvantage to the men in having
such long settlements as you have at Dunrossness?-In some cases
there is.
4783. Do you think it would be better for you to be paid for your
fish as they are delivered?-In some cases that would do very
well, but in other cases it would not. Some men and some families
would, so to speak, go beyond their income; and at the end of the
season, when their rent was due, they would have nothing to
[Page 119] give to their landlord. They would not have saved any
money for the rent.
4784. But is it not the case that fishermen nowadays save a good
deal of money?-Some do, and some do not.
4785. Have not a good many of your friends large deposits in the
bank?-No; that is not the case with many.
4786. Are you sure of that?-I would not be positive; but so far as
I know, it is not the case.
4787. I suppose a man does not speak very much about his bank
account down about Dunrossness, when he has one?-No; but I
don't think it is very common for them there to have one.
4788. Do you know anything about the price of meal at the shop
where you deal?-I have an idea of it, but only at settling time.
4789. At which shop do you deal?-At Grutness store.
4790. Do you run up a large account in the course of the year?-
Generally I do.
4791. Does your account take off most of the price of your fish?-
Yes, the most of it.
4792. You only get a small balance at the end of the year?-Yes, if
I have it to get; but if not, Mr. Bruce is kind enough to make me a
small advance as I need it.
4793. Of course that is on the footing that you are to fish to him
next year?-We understand so.
4794. Do you think you would get your meal cheaper at another
store than at Grutness, if you had liberty to deal at another store?-
I think so, according to what other people say.
4795. Have you inquired the price of meal at Messrs. Hay's shop
there?-I have not inquired about it myself.
4796. What do you pay for your meal at Grutness store?-It varies
according to the quality and the current price of meal.
4797. Do you pay the same price for it all the year round?-Yes.
4798. Is that generally the price which prevails at the end of the
year at settling time, or is it an average of the prices that have
prevailed during the whole year?-When it all comes to be
summed up, it is generally a little in advance, on the whole, of
what we could buy meal for at another shop,-for instance, at Hay
and Co.'s.
4799. Is the quality of it as good as you could get at Hay &
Co.'s?-The quality is good.
4800. Is there anything else you want to add to the statements of
the other witnesses?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, THOMAS AITKEN, examined.
4801. You are a fisherman at Eastshore, in Dunrossness?-Yes.
4802. Are you a tenant of land under Mr. Bruce?-I am only
tenant of a room, not of any land. I hold a house there.
4803. Are you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes; I
signed an agreement to fish for him when he took the fishing in his
own hand at Grutness, eleven or twelve years ago.
4804. Were you a landholder at that time?-No; but I was living in
my father's house, and I was bound to fish for Mr. Bruce like the
rest.
4805. What was the document you were asked to sign?-The
general tenor of his statement was, that he was to give the current
price, and I was bound to fish for him while I was living on his
estate.
4806. Have you any objection to adhere to that bargain?-I am of
the opinion that, if I had had my freedom, I might have made a
little more from my fish than I have done.
4807. But would you not have your freedom simply by removing
to another place?-Not in Dunrossness.
4808. You mean not on his land?-No, nor on Mr. Grierson's
land. I would be bound to fish for Grierson under the same rules if
I were to remove to his property.
4809. Do you live with your father still?-No; my father is an old
man, and he has ceased to hold land.
4810. Do you consider yourself still bound to fish for Mr. Bruce,
even although your father does not hold any land from him?-Yes;
I consider I am bound while I am living on his estate.
4811. Have you any copy of the agreement which you signed?-
No.
4812. Where did you sign it?-In the shop at Grutness.
4813. Who asked you to sign it?-Mr. Bruce's factor, or his
farmer who was in Sumburgh at that time who was sent round
among the tenants with a letter from old Mr. Bruce, intimating to
them that his son was to take the district into his own hands, that
they were to fish for him, and that any one refusing to fish was to
leave.
4814. That is the letter which Laurence Smith has spoken of?-
Yes.
4815. But did you sign anything?-Yes, I signed a paper, stating
that I would rather stay and fish for him than that I would flit.
4816. Was that after the letter had been sent round among the
tenants?-Yes.
4817. How long after?-A few days perhaps,-not more.
4818. Were you asked to go to the shop and sign it?-Yes.
4819. Were any others asked to sign it?-I believe there were.
4820. Was it the factor who asked you to sign it?-Yes. Gilbert
Irvine was the factor; he asked me to sign it, and I signed to him.
The paper was there, ready for us to sign.
4821. Was it read over to you?-Yes.
4822. What was the substance of it?-The substance of it was just
what I have stated-that if we would fish to Mr. Bruce on these
terms, we could stay on the land; and if not, then we would have to
go.
4823. Were there many people who signed it at the same time with
you?-No.
4824. Was there anybody else who signed it at the same time?-I
could not exactly say. I don't think there was anybody in the
house when I signed it, but there were a great many names to it
before I went in.
4825. Was it signed by landholders only, or by those who had
merely a room?-There were very few at that time who merely
held a room. There are not many yet who do so; but the document
was signed generally by the fishermen who fished there.
4826. Was the thing you signed an obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce
so long as you occupied a room or a house on his ground?-Yes; I
so understood it.
4827. But if you ceased to occupy that house or room you would
be free?-Yes; and we could go to another place.
4828. You settle every year in the spring?-Yes.
4829. Do you generally have a balance in your favour?-Not very
often. I have no land, and therefore I have to rely upon my own
fishing, or what work I can do for him when I am called upon to
work.
4830. Are you bound to work for Mr. Bruce as well as to fish for
him?-I am not bound to work for him; but if I am in debt to him,
of course he will call me out to work.
4831. But he will pay you for it?-Yes; but I am not quite satisfied
with that pay. It is only a penny for one hour's work.
4832. Does that go into your account?-Yes.
4833. Have you got any pass-book at the shop?-No; I have no
pass-book there. I see the articles which I receive from him
entered into his book, and I told the price of most of the things
when they supplied to me; but the principal thing which I get from
the store is meal, and I never know the price of it until the day
when I come to settle, or until I hear it from any person who has
settled before me for the same year.
[Page 120]
4834. Do you know what price you paid for it at last settlement?-
I paid the same price for it as the other witnesses you have
examined-22s. for Scotch oatmeal, and 20s. for barley-meal.
4835. Do you think you could have got your meal cheaper than
that elsewhere?-Yes, I am under that impression.
4836. Have you asked the price of it elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Hay's
factor at Dunrossness had meal which was cheaper at that time.,
4837. That was in the spring of last year?-Yes.
4838. How much cheaper was it?-I cannot remember exactly; but
if I had had money, I could have purchased it cheaper at many
places besides that.
4839. Did you not get advances of money in the course of the year
from Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
4840. Could you not have got as much as you asked?-I did not
want to ask more than I thought I could stand to. I did not want to
get far in debt to him.
4841. Did you get a balance at last settlement paid to you in
money?-Yes; if I had a balance at the end of the year, it was paid
to me in money.
4842. But did you get a balance last year?-I was about clear then.
4843. You were not much more than clear?-No.
4844. Do you remember how much you got at that time?-I asked
for £1 of advance from him at the settlement, and he gave it to me.
4845. Do you mean £1 more than the balance due to you?-Yes.
4846. Were you in debt at the previous settlement in 1870?-Yes.
4847. Were you also in debt in 1869?-Yes.
4848. Was the balance also on the wrong side for you in 1868?-I
don't think it.
4849. Do you think you had something to get in 1868?-If I
remember right I had.
4850. Do you remember how you stood in 1867?-I think that I
was clear.
4851. But you had not much to get?-No.
4852. You are a married man and have a family?-Yes.
4853. Is there anything you wish to add to what you have heard the
previous witnesses say?-Nothing further than just that I am not
satisfied with my wages.
4854. Have you not something to say yourself in fixing your
charges?-No.
4855. How is that? You need not work unless you know what
wages you are to get beforehand?-No; but there is no general
work there to work at. Mr. Bruce is the only man who has work to
do and when a man is in necessity he must work.
4856. Can you not get land of your own?-No; I am not able to
hold any land, because my family are sickly, and are not able to
work upon it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HANS MAINLAND, examined.
4857. You are a fisherman at Northtown of Exnaboe, on the land
of Mr Bruce of Sumburgh?-I am.
4858. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses?-
Yes.
4859. Has it generally been a correct description of your way of
dealing with the shop at Sumburgh, and with Mr. Bruce for your
fish?-So far as regards the store, I have never been obliged to
take anything from it. I always went and bought my goods for
ready money from any place where I could get them cheapest.
4860. Why was that?-Because as a general rule, I heard the
people complaining that they were obliged to take their goods
from the store, and that they were dearer there than they could be
got elsewhere.
4861. Had you any difficulty in getting the balance due to you at
the settlement at the end of the year in cash?-No.
4862. You always got money?-Yes.
4863. Was money also advanced to you in the course of the year
before settlement, if you wanted it?-Yes, if I asked for it.
4864. What amount might you get advanced before settlement?-
If I had asked it, I would have got perhaps £10 or £20. Of course I
had a little money in Mr. Bruce's hands, so that I was not requiring
to draw any money from him that was not due to me.
4865. Is there anything you wish to add to the evidence which has
been given already?-There is one thing I should like to say with
regard to the present law on the subject of leases. Mr. Bruce has
the power of turning out men who have made a great many
improvements on his estate, and perhaps, they may be turned out
without receiving any compensation whatever. I am one of those
who have done it great deal for it. I have expended upwards of
£100 worth of labour and material on his ground.
4866. Before laying out that expense could you not have made an
arrangement with the landlord that he should repay you for it if
you were turned off?-So far as I am aware, he has never been
prepared to give any rules or regulations to that effect.
4867. Has he not offered you a lease?-He has offered us a lease;
but I don't think there is any party in Shetland who would accept
of it.
4868. Have you ever applied for a different lease?-I have never
applied for a lease at all. There was no use doing so, so far as
I knew. But I think that when a party lays out money in
improvements on master's estate he ought to be paid for it.
4869. But a man who lays out money upon another man's, land
knows quite well before he begins that he will not be paid for it,
and he takes the risk of the landlord being kind enough and able to
repay him part of these expenses. It may very well be that the
landlord is a poor enough man as well as the tenant, and that he
cannot afford to put improvements upon his land; and yet the
tenant goes and spends a lot of money on it, expecting the landlord
to repay him for improvements which the landlord himself would
not have made, if he had had the land in his own hands?-That
may be quite true; but so far as I have understood, Mr. Bruce has
always taken a great interest in having improvements made upon
his land.
4870. That, however, is hardly a question into which I can enter
here unless you think it has some bearing upon the system of
payments at the shop, or the system of payments for the fish?-It
has no bearing upon these questions at all, so far as I am aware,
except perhaps in this way, that for four months in the winter
season the fishermen are lying at home to a great extent, idle. The
fishing commences about 1st May, and it finishes in the end of
August. Then they have to gather in their summer crops; and
during the winter season, and the early part of the spring, they have
very little to do; while a person of an active turn of mind does not
like to remain idle for such a length of time. They want to be
doing something, and they will engage to any one who has work to
give them.
4871. Have you anything more to say about that?-I have nothing
more to say except this, that when person is a tenant at will, and
liable to be removed after having made improvements on the
estate of any proprietor, he ought to receive compensation for
these improvements.
4872. Would it be possible for fishermen in Shetland to carry on
the business of fishermen alone without being tenants?-Not so
far as my judgment goes.
4873. Why?-Because the small earnings from the fishing could
not support him, neither could the land itself support him in the
way it is laid down present.
4874. And I suppose, if the holdings of land were larger, a man
would have no time to attend to the fishing?-No, he would not.
If the holdings were larger, of course the men would have to
occupy the whole of their time with the ground.
4875. Don't you think that, with an improved system of
agriculture, you would find enough occupation on [Page 121]
holdings of the present size for the whole year?-Not in my
opinion; they are too small for that.
4876. Not even by following out the rules and regulations which
Mr. Bruce has offered you?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, ADAM LESLIE, jun., examined.
4877. You are a fisherman at Toab, in Dunrossness?-I am.
4878. Have you heard the evidence of the previous witnesses?-
Yes.
4879. Does it fairly describe the system under which you hold your
land and fish for Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and the way in which
you deal at his shop?-Yes, I think it does.
4880. Is there any addition you wish to make to the evidence
which has been given, or any correction upon it?-No.
4881. Have you a pass-book at the shop?-No.
4882. Do you deal at the shop at Grutness for the goods you want
for your family?-In part I do.
4883. Do you find that, at the end of the year, you have generally a
balance in your favour, or is it against you?-I cannot say that it is
much against me.
4884. Do you get payment of that balance in money?-Yes.
4885. Do you also get advances in money, in the course of the year
before settlement, if you want them?-Yes; whenever I ask for
them. Our place is far away from the bank, and sometimes Mr.
Bruce may have run out of money by so many people having gone
and asked it from him; but if I go to him and ask him for money,
and he does not have it, he tells me when to come back and get it.
4886. In that case, when you get the money, do you spend it
generally at Mr. Bruce's shop, or do you go and deal at some other
store with it?-I generally go to some other store.
4887. Do you find that you get your goods cheaper at another store
than at his?-I am under that impression, but I never compared his
goods with those of other merchants.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE WILLIAMSON, examined
4888. You are a fisherman at Eastshore, Dunrossness, and a tenant
on Mr Bruce's land?-I am.
4889. You have been there for thirteen years?-Yes.
4890. Do you remember a time when the fishermen got their
freedom there?-That was before I came to the place.
4891. Were they understood formerly to be bound?-Yes, in old
times they were bound; but, just about time when I came there, old
Mr. Bruce gave them their liberty, and they were all free.
4892. Was there an understanding previously, that they were
bound to fish only to him, or to his tacksmen?-Yes: but, two or
three years before I came they got their liberty.
4893. Was there any payment made for that?-Each landholder
had to pay 15s. a year for his freedom.
4894. Was that just an addition to their rent?-Yes.
4895. The rents were raised, and the fishermen had liberty to do as
they liked about their fish?-Yes.
4896. From whom did you learn that?-It was given out by Mr.
Bruce, and by all the tenants.
4897. But you said you were not there at the time?-I was not.
4898. Then you learned that when you came from common
report?-Yes, just from common report.
4899. Was your father a landholder there?-No. I removed from
Mr. Bruce of Simbister's ground to that place.
4900. Have you held your ground at the same rent for the thirteen
years you have been there?-No. The rent has been raised a good
deal since I came, in addition to the 15s.
4901. During all your time have you been free to deliver your fish
to any person you chose?-I was free to do so until twelve years
back, when I became bound to deliver my fish to Mr. John Bruce.
4902. That was by the letter which has been spoken of already?-
Yes.
4903. You have heard the evidence of William Goudie, and the
other men who have been examined?-Yes.
4904. Was it generally correct as to the way in which you deal
about your fish?-So far as I could judge, I have not heard a wrong
statement made to-day; and there has been nothing left for me to
add to it.
4905. You agree with them that you can get money when you ask
for it?-Yes.
4906. Is the bulk of the price of your fish paid to you in money or
in goods?-I take goods according as I require them. I have meal
and other things; and whatever is over, after paying my account at
the shop and my rent, is cheerfully paid to me, the same as I would
pay it to my son. There is not a freer man at paying money to his
tenants than Mr. Bruce is. I have been £6 in debt, and asked him
for advances, and he has given them to me.
4907. Was that after settlement?-Yes.
4908. And, of course, that was given to you on the understanding
that you were to be fishing for him next year?-Yes; I was fishing
for him by sea, and working for him by land.
4909. If you had not been fishing for him, would you have got an
advance of that sort?-But I was fishing for him, so that I cannot
tell that.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES FLAWES, examined.
4910. You are a fisherman, and tenant under Mr. Grierson at
Rennesta, near Quendale?-I am.
4911. Are you under any obligation to deliver your fish to Mr
Grierson?-Yes.
4912. Is he a fish-merchant and fish-curer?-He is a
fish-merchant, and he has men under him for curing his fish.
4913. Is your obligation a written one, or is it part of a verbal lease
of your land?-When young Mr. Grierson got the fishing, he read
out a statement to his tenantry at large, in the schoolroom at
Quendale.
4914. How long ago was that?-Twelve years ago. That statement
which he read gave the tenantry to understand that he was to
become their fish-merchant, or the man they were to deliver their
fish to; and that they were all bound to give him every tail of their
fish from end to end of the season, as long as they held their land
under him. If they did not do that, they knew the consequences:
they would be turned out.
4915. Was that all stated to you in the schoolroom on that
occasion?-Yes; it was all read off by Mr. Grierson himself.
4916. Were you present?-Yes.
4917. Did he state that you would be paid for your fish according
to the current price at the time of settlement?-Yes; that was
stated also at that time.
4918. Was it stated how that current price was to be
ascertained?-It was to be the currency of the country, particularly
the prices paid by three or four merchants who dealt in the same
kind of fish that he received from his tenants.
4919. Did Mr. Grierson name the four merchants whose prices
were to rule?-The four merchants who generally agree together
are Mr. John Robertson, [Page 122] Messrs. Hay, Mr. Bruce of
Sumburgh, and Mr. Grierson.
4920. How do you know that these merchants agree together as to
the prices?-Because the tenants of the whole of them generally
get the same price for their fish.
4921. Do not all the tenants in Shetland generally get the same
price for their fish each season?-No; there is a difference.
4922. Do you know that the tenants of these four parties always
get one price?-Yes; generally it is the same price that is given to
them all.
4923. Do you know that the tenants on other estates get a different
price?-Yes, I know that.
4924. Can you mention any case in which that has happened?-
Yes. There are a few merchants in Sandwick parish who get fish
from a few boats there-James Smith, James Mouat, and Thomas
Tulloch-and they always give a little higher.
4925. Do these merchants keep shops as well?-Yes, they have
shops too.
4926. Do the men who fish for them deal at their shops?-I
understand they do.
4927. Can you tell me how much Tulloch and Smith have paid for
their fish?-In some years they give 6d. per cwt. more than Mr.
Grierson and the other merchants I have mentioned, and for some
kinds of fish 9d. more.
4928. What price did you receive for your fish at last
settlement?-Last year, I think, we got 7s. for ling, or 7s. 3d.,
I could not exactly say which; 5s. 6d. for cod, and 3s. 6d. for
saith.
4929. Do you know how much the fishermen got from Tulloch and
Smith?-I could not exactly say, but they got a little more.
4930. You knew that at the time?-Yes, I knew it at the time from
the fishermen who were giving their fish to them.
4931. Do you know how much more they got?-I think it was 9d.
more on some fish, and 6d. more on others. It might be a little
more; but, I think, I am safe to say that.
4932. Do you know anything about the prices of goods at the
stores of Tulloch and Smith?-No. I never bought anything from
them.
4933. Young Mr. Grierson, whom you mentioned as having taken
the fishing in 1861, is now the proprietor of the estate?-Yes.
4934. Does the obligation which was then imposed upon you
extend to the sons of his tenants, as well as to the tenants
themselves?-It extends to all.
4935. Do you know of any case in which any man upon the land
has delivered his fish to another fishcurer than Mr. Grierson, and
has been challenged or turned out for that?-I know one.
4936. Who was that?-Thomas Johnston, Garth, Quendale, son of
John Johnston. He was out of a chance of fishing for Mr. Grierson
at his station, but he got a chance to fish for Messrs. Hay, and
because he went and fished for them, he could not come back to
his father's house, but had to remain all winter and vore (<i.e.>
spring) with the man he fished for. Then he came back next spring
and fished for Mr. Grierson again.
4937. Who prevented him from coming back to his father's house,
if he had chosen to do so?-He was told by Mr. Grierson, that if he
went and fished for another person, he would have to stop away,
and that if he came back, it would be his father's warning.
4938. How long ago was that?-I don't recollect exactly; perhaps
two or three years ago.
4939. How do you know that that warning would have been given
to John Johnston?-Because it was part of the arrangement with
Mr. Grierson from the very outset.
4940. But how do you know that Thomas Johnston was told he
must leave the land and that his father would be turned out if he
came back?-Because he told me so himself, and he evidenced it
by staying away.
4941. Was it not more convenient for him to live near the station
where he was fishing for Hay & Co., than to remain in his father's
house?-He had to leave his own house and go away down to the
west voe to fish.
4942. But was it not more convenient for himself to go there?-
Yes, it was handier for him to live near the place where he was
fishing.
4943. Are you sure that was not the reason why he left his father's
house?-But the man he fished for did not live at that station: his
house was away upon the west side.
4944. Was he not upon Mr. Grierson's land?-No, not that man.
4945. Do you know the case of any other man being challenged or
threatened because he sold his fish to another fish merchant than
Mr. Grierson?-Yes, I know of another case-James Shewan on
the ground of Brough, belonging to Mr. Grierson's estate.
4946. How long is it since that case happened?-It was last year.
4947. What do you know about it?-Shewan did not have a
chance of fishing at home for Mr. Grierson, and he also took a
chance at the ness with Messrs. Hay & Co. They fished from the
west voe then.
4948. What was the consequence?-The consequence was that
Shewan had to pay £1 of liberty money.
4949. When was that?-This year.
4950. Was it before last settlement?-No; it was at this settlement.
4951. Is the settlement over at Quendale for last season?-Almost.
There were a few boats not settled with when we came up.
4952. How do you know that Shewan had to pay liberty money this
year? Did he tell you that he had had to pay it?-Yes.
4953. Did you see him pay it?-I did not.
4954. Was it added to his account when settling?-I cannot tell
you whether it was included in the settlement, or whether he had
paid it some months before.
4955. When did he tell you about it?-He told me when he had
settled.
4956. How long ago is that?-It is not very long; perhaps it week
or two since.
4957. Is James Shewan a tenant of Mr. Grierson's?-Yes.
4958. Was it not it part of his bargain, on taking his land, that he
should deliver his fish to his landlord?-Yes.
4959. And was not that £1 which he paid just a penalty for breach
of contract?-Yes; but then he did not have a chance of fishing for
Mr. Grierson. There were no men on Mr. Grierson's estate who
could fill up a boat with him, the men that he had previously been
going with having joined another crew; and therefore he had to go
to some other place where he could earn something.
4960. Were Mr. Grierson's crews all filled up at that time?-Yes.
4961. Could Shewan not have brought his share of his boat's fish
to Mr. Grierson and delivered them to him, although the rest of the
men were fishing for Hay and Co.?-He might have done that; but
I don't know very well about it.
4962. That would have been very inconvenient I suppose?-Yes,
very.
4963. Do you know of any other case of the same kind?- No.
4964. Or of any case of a person being told that he must fish
entirely to Mr. Grierson without being threatened?-We knew
quite well from the statement which was made to us before, that if
any one transgressed the rule, the penalty would just be our forty
days warning.
4965. Do you deal at the Quendale store?-Yes.
4966. Who is the storekeeper there?-Ogilvy Jamieson.
4967. Is the shop at a convenient place for your people and for
most of the fishermen round about?-Yes, it is very convenient.
4968. Does Jamieson receive your fish as well as attend to the
shop?-Yes. There is a factor under [Page 123] him who receives
the fish, but Jamieson is over all, both over the shop and the fish.
4969. What is the name of the factor who receives the fish?-It is
sometimes one man and sometimes another.
4970. Do you run an account at the shop?-Yes.
4971. Are you expected to deal there, or have you freedom to deal
where you like for what you want for your families?-We are
quite at liberty to deal anywhere we choose, if we had only the
means in our possession to do it.
4972. How is that you have not the means?-Because we have not
got the money.
4973. Does Mr. Grierson advance you money in the course of the
year before settlement when you ask for it?-He does.
4974. Can you not take that money and deal with it at any other
store that suits you better than Mr. Grierson's?-We do that very
often.
4975. Then, how is it that you say you have not the means of
dealing where you choose?-What I mean by that is, that we don't
have the chance to do it so often as we would like to do it; and we
don't like to be always running to him for money for the small
things we require. It is only in particular cases when we require a
pound or so to help us that we ask it from him.
4976. What other shops are there convenient for you?-The only
shop that I can make better out of than Mr. Grierson's in our
district is Mr. Gavin Henderson's at Scousborough.
4977. Is that near Dunrossness kirk?-It is to the north and west of
it.
4978. Do you prefer to go to Henderson's store because the goods
are cheaper and better there?-Yes.
4979. Are they both cheaper and better?-We generally think so.
4980. Can you give me any particular case in which you have
found them to be so?-I have never made an exact comparison of
the things to find out the precise difference; but when we are to
buy a suit of clothes for instance, we think we can make as good
bargain at Henderson's shop as we can do at any shop in Shetland.
4981. Have you bought a suit of clothes both at that shop and at
Mr. Grierson's?-I have never bought a full suit of clothes at Mr.
Grierson's, but I have done so at Gavin Henderson's.
4982. What is the price of meal at Quendale store?-I could not
tell exactly, because I have not had any there during the last two
years, my little farm having supplied me with all I wanted.
4983. What is the price of tea at the two stores?-The prices of tea
at both these stores are much the same. There are three different
prices of tea at the two stores, but we rather think that Henderson's
tea is generally better for the prices charged than Mr. Grierson's is.
4984. Have you tried the moleskins also?-Yes; and if I were
buying with ready money out of Grierson's shop, I don't think the
difference between them would be worth mentioning.
4985. But is there a difference according as you buy with ready
money or pay at the settlement?-Yes. If I buy a pair of trousers
for ready money, I get them down 1d. per yard. The cloth is
marked 3s. per yard, and I get 1d. off the yard. Then if I buy a
shirt of 3 yards, and if I pay ready money for it, I get reduction of
1d. per yard on 9d. or 10d.
4986. Do you get your goods cheaper at Henderson's shop even
with that discount?-Yes. If I go to Henderson's shop without the
money, he will not take any more for the goods than he would do
even if I had the money with me.
4987. Will he give you the goods as cheap as at Grierson's?-Yes;
as cheap as if I had bought them at Grierson's with ready money.
4988. Is there any other reason why you would prefer not to deal at
Mr. Grierson's shop for your goods?-We would have no great
objection to deal at his shop if we were paid a little better for our
fish. It is our opinion that we are not paid for our fish altogether
as we might be.
4989. But you get the currency of the country?-Yes; and we sign
for that.
4990. Do you think you should get more than the currency of the
country?-We cannot exactly judge of the state of the market, but
from what we hear and from what we see in the papers, we think
the merchants take rather too much profit, and that we would be a
little better if we received the money for the sale of our fish
ourselves.
4991. Do you think you would be better off if you had a price
fixed for your fish at so much per cwt. at the beginning of the
season?-That would depend upon circumstances.
4992. Taking a number of years together, do you think you could
make a better bargain for yourselves in that way?-I think so. The
three men I mentioned in Sandwick parish generally give an
agreement to state something like what they will give, and they
seem to stand by it pretty well whatever the price may be.
4993. Would the fishermen not object to that sort of
arrangement?-I don't know. I don't think the fishermen in
general would object to any agreement by which they might know
what they were working for during the season, although I really
cannot say that they could make any more decided efforts for
catching fish than they do under present circumstances.
4994. But even although the price were fixed at the beginning of
the season, the fishermen would still have an inducement to exert
themselves as much as possible in order that they might have a
large catch?-They would; but I say that I don't know how they
could exert themselves to do more than they do already.
4995. Still, they would have exactly the same reason for
exertion?-Yes.
4996. Do you think if the price were fixed at the beginning of the
season, and it turned out that the current price of fish was much
higher than that fixed with the men at the commencement, they
would try to get out of their bargain, and demand the higher price
that was current?-There comes the difficulty. We who catch the
fish would always like to get as high a price for them as we can;
but if we make an agreement, we must stand by it. However, if the
merchants could afford to give 6d. or 1s. more according to the
state of the markets, and did not give it, we would rather look
down upon them for taking such a large price, and not giving us
part of the advantage of it.
4997. But you ought to recollect that in another year you might
have made a bargain for the same price, and the price received by
the fish-curers might be less, so that there would be a loss to
them?-Yes; but, I think the men in general would be prepared to
run the risk of the rise and fall in the markets in that way, or, if
they made a bargain, they would stick to it.
4998. Have you known any case in which men engaged to fish on
such terms, and finding the price higher than that which they had
bargained for, asked that higher price from the fish-curer?-I
cannot say that I have known any case.
4999. You don't know whether that has ever occurred in
Shetland?-No, I don't know anything about that.
5000. Do you know anything about the employment of beach
boys?-A little. I had a boy employed this year at the beach.
5001. Is there considered to be an obligation upon the Quendale
tenants to allow their sons to be employed as beach boys?-Yes,
whenever called for.
5002. Is that obligation enforced?-Yes, it is just the same as with
all the rest. The landlord says, 'If I call for your son to cure fish
for me, and you object to it, then I can lay whatever penalty I
choose upon you, and either remove you or impose a fine.'
5003. Do you know of any case where that has occurred?-No;
because the tenants know exactly what the consequences would
be, and they are frightened to do anything in opposition to their
landlord's wishes. We are all poor people together, and not very
well able to bear fines or removals.
[Page 124]
5004. What are the wages for a beach boy?-An active beach boy
for his first year at Quendale will get 30s. for about five months in
the year. That is his whole wage.
5005. Could he get more in any other employment in Shetland?-
In some cases Messrs. Hay's factor would give more for beach
boys than they would get beside us.
5006. What is the age of a boy who would get that wage?-From
twelve to fourteen or sixteen years; and if a boy goes two or three
years to the beach, his wages are raised every year.
5007. How are their wages paid?-If they take goods from the
shop, these are marked down against them.
5008. Are they marked down in the father's account, or in a
separate account in the boy's own name?-In a separate account
in the boy's own name.
5009. Has your son been long in that employment?-I have only
had one of my sons at it for one year.
5010. Is he to be employed this year again in the same way?-Yes.
5011. Had he a balance in his favour when he was settled with?-
He has not been settled with yet. He was employed for the year
which has just come to an end; but I don't think he will have very
much to get, as he had no clothes to speak of when he began, and
he was very glad of the chance of winning a little, so that he might
get a suit of clothes.
5012. Has it been a common case within the last two or three years
for the fishermen who are employed in the way you have described
to have a balance in their favour at settlement, or have they usually
had balance against them?-During the last two or three years a
good many of Mr. Grierson's fishermen have had a very good
balance to come to them to account, but I and some others have
been behind and could not get clear.
5013. Are there many of that sort?-There are few.
5014. Is it worse for a man of that kind to leave and get free of his
obligation to fish than for a man that has cash to receive to do
so?-Under Mr. Grierson's arrangement there is no difference
between the two kinds of men as regards getting their liberty to
fish to any other man, because none of them have any such liberty.
5015. The obligation to fish depends on the holding of land; it
does not depend on the amount of debt due to Mr. Grierson?-No,
it does not depend upon that.
5016. Are there many men there who fish for Mr. Grierson and
who do not hold land?-Yes, there are a good few.
5017. Are they under any obligation to fish for him?-They are all
under one obligation from head to foot.
5018. How does that happen in the case of men who do not hold
land?-Because they are all on Mr. Grierson's ground.
5019. Would the party they live with be warned if they were not to
fish for him?-That was in his first arrangement.
5020. Is that arrangement still in force?-I never knew of any
alteration being made upon it.
5021. Have you been told anything about that obligation since it
was read over to you in 1861?-No; there have been no cases in
which it has been broken except the two I have mentioned, and we
saw what happened.
5022. But you have not been spoken to about it at all?-No.
5023. Or reminded about it?-No, we have never been reminded
about it; but we signed then to fish for Mr. Grierson, and we have
heard of no other arrangement.
5024. How do you supply yourselves with fishing materials?-We
generally take them from Mr. Grierson's shop.
5025. Are you under any sort of obligation to take them from
there?-We are just under the same sort of obligation to take them
from his shop as we are to take anything, because we generally
cannot get them anywhere else. We never ask money to go and get
them anywhere else, although it is our opinion that if we could go
elsewhere, we would get them a little cheaper-that is, our fishing
lines.
5026. Where would you go for them?-We could buy them in
some shops in Lerwick a little cheaper.
5027. But you would have a long way to carry them if you were to
buy them here?-Yes; but we don't think much of our travel
sometimes when we can make good bargain.
5028. Have you anything more to say about the state of matters in
your neighbourhood?-I have nothing more to say at present; only,
if I am at liberty to do so, I should like to say on Mr. Grierson's
behalf that, as a landlord, he has been very favourable to me and to
many of the tenants. He has supplied us with goods and helped us,
when we were not very well able to help ourselves; and he has
continued to do that in my case to the present time. If I am in debt
to him, he never charges me for that debt; but I am at liberty to sell
any animal off my farm if I choose, without him asking anything
about it.
5029. Are you a little behind just now?-I am a good bit behind
just now.
5030. But you could still get an advance of money if you needed
it?-Yes. The shopkeeper told me when I was settling, that if I
wanted from 1s. to £1, I could get it from him any time I asked for
it.
5031. Do you get all your things at his shop?-Not altogether.
When I have a little money beside me, I can get them from any
quarter. The fact is that I sometimes go there with money, and get
the things cheaper than if I were getting them on credit. For
instance, if I ask for a quarter pound of stick tobacco, I will get it
for 1s. if I pay for it with money; while if it is marked down to me,
it will be 1s. 1d. Now, we do think that is very unreasonable, as
they have a profit both on our fish and on our goods, and we are
very much dissatisfied about it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, GEORGE GOUDIE, examined.
5032. You are a fisherman and tenant on the estate of Mr. Grierson
of Quendale?-Yes; at Garth.
5033. Have you heard the evidence of James Flawes?-Yes.
5034. Is it generally a correct statement of the obligation you are
under to fish to Mr. Grierson, and of the way in which you settle
for your fish?-So far as I know, it is.
5035. Do you get money paid to you when you want it in the
course of the season?-Yes.
5036. But is the greater part of the price of your fish got out in
goods from Mr. Grierson's shop?-Yes, the greater part.
5037. What balance did you receive at last settlement?-I had no
balance to receive. It was against me.
5038. Had most of the men a balance against them at last
settlement?-I suppose the greater part of them had.
5039. Have you got a note of your settlement?-No.
5040. Did you get any receipt or pass-book or account?-No.
5041. Is your account read over to you at the settlement?-Yes, if
we want to have it read. The shop account, if we want it, will be
read over to us.
5042. If it is not read over, how do you know whether it is
correctly charged or not?-The men who do not keep a note of
their accounts for themselves cannot know whether they are
correct or not even by hearing them read over.
5043. Are you generally content to trust to the shopkeeper for the
accuracy of your account?-Yes.
5044. Do you know anything about the quality of the meal that is
sold there, and the price of it?-Yes.
5045. Have you been getting meal from the shop [Page 125]
during the last year or two?-Yes. Mr. Grierson's meal last year
was from 2s. to 3s. per boll above what Mr. Gavin Henderson
charged for his.
5046. Was the quality of Henderson's meal as good?-Yes; quite
as good.
5047. Have you tried them both in your own house?-Yes.
5048. What was the price of the one and of the other?-Mr.
Grierson's bear-meal was 14s. per boll-that is Shetland grain;
and Gavin Henderson charged 12. for Shetland meal also.
5049. Does Mr Grierson's shopkeeper charge the same price for
meal all through the year?-Yes; for the same kind of meal.
5050. All the meal of the same kind in your account is charged at
the same rate throughout the year?-Yes.
5051. But at Gavin Henderson's, it is charged to you according to
the price at the time you buy it: the price varying at different
periods of the same year?-Yes, it varies a little; but Mr.
Grierson's meal also varies when the price elsewhere varies.
5052. Then you may have meal charged at different rates in the
same account?-Yes.
5053. Is there any other article, the price of which you have
compared with what you could get it for elsewhere?-Yes, there is
tobacco. If we buy a single ounce we pay 31/2d., and 2 oz. 6d., at
Quendale store. In Gavin Henderson's we can get a single ounce
for 3d., and 2 oz. are charged 6d. also.
5054. Is there anything else you can speak to?-No, I don't think
there is anything else.
5055. Is there anything else you wish to say in addition to what
James Flawes has said?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, CHARLES EUNSON, examined.
5056. You are a fisherman, and a tenant of Mr. Grierson's at
Waterbru?-I am.
5057. Is that near Quendale?-It is about a mile and a half away.
5058. Have you heard the evidence of James Flawes and George
Goudie?-Yes.
5059. Is it generally correct with regard to the system of dealing at
the shop and for your fish?-I think so.
5060. Is there anything you wish to add to it?-Nothing with
respect to that; but I had a little experience once with regard to
liberty money. Before the time when Mr. Grierson and Mr. Bruce
took the fishings into their own hands-for they were both in
company when they started with that-we had enjoyed our liberty
all along, and had never been obliged to fish for our proprietors;
but at that time we were taken in hand along with the rest of Mr.
Grierson's tenants, and we had to fish for them. That lasted only
for three years, and then the contract was broken, and each started
on his own account.
5061. Was that before or after the statement which was made by
Mr. Grierson at Quendale?-It was three years after it. When the
contract was broken, Mr. Grierson had no place handy for us to
land our fish at and deliver them to him, as we lived farther from
Quendale than the rest of his tenants; and therefore at that time
again we got our liberty and fished for whom we chose. He
exacted nothing for that, and things went on in that way, I think,
for three years; but at the end of that time Mr. Grierson took a
station at Voe, on the east side of the parish, where he had had no
place previously, and he told us that we would be obliged to
deliver our fish to him, like the rest of his tenants. During the
three years before we were put under that obligation, we had been
fishing at the Ness, and had been at considerable trouble and
expense in forcing a beach, and making other things right for
curing our own fish. We were unwilling to lose the whole of that,
and we applied to Mr. Grierson to allow us to continue to fish at
the Ness; and he told us that if we paid three guineas of liberty
money, he would allow us to fish there. We offered to pay that
liberty money for one season, but it was a bad season; there were
not many fish, and the price was low; and we went to Mr Grierson
and asked him if he would take our fish. He consented to take
them in a dry state; and he deducted 6d. per cwt. for the three
guineas for every cwt. we delivered to him; so the result was that
we had to pay him about £1 and upwards.
5062. In what year was that?-It is four years ago; it must have
been in 1867.
5063. Then these fish would be settled for at the annual
settlement?-Yes.
5064. Did you get any account of that year's settlement?-No; I
would have got it if I had asked for it, but I never asked it.
5065. Who did you settle with that year?-With Mr. Grierson
himself.
5066. You did not settle with Mr. Jamieson?-No; he had not
come to the place at that time. There was another man there in the
place which Mr. Jamieson now has, but we did not settle with him.
5067. Do you know anything about the price or quality of the meal
at Quendale store as compared with other places?-It is a great
deal better now than it used to be eleven or twelve years ago; it
was not very satisfactory then, but it is not so bad now. The
difference between the meal there and at other places is still
something, but not so much so as it was.
5068. Do you get meal there?-Yes, frequently; and frequently at
other places.
5069. I suppose you get it there, or at other places, according to the
state of your account at the time?-Yes; or rather according to my
interest. Mr. Grierson has never refused to give me anything
reasonable that I asked him. He has been very generous in that
way all along.
5070. Have you any boys on the beach?-I have one boy who has
been engaged this year for the first time for Mr. Grierson.
5071. Had you any desire to have him engaged elsewhere?-I
would not have minded much if he had never gone to the beach at
all; it is not a very good berth for a boy. In the previous year they
asked me if I would allow him to go to the beach, and I said I
would rather not, as I required his services myself; but this season
they asked me for him again. Perhaps they would not have taken
him against my will, but Mr Grierson might have thought I was
rather obstinate if I refused again, and so I let him go. I did not
like to refuse when Mr. Grierson asked me.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, LAURENCE LESLIE, examined.
5072. You are a fisherman, and a tenant on Mr. Grierson's land at
Hillwill?-I am only a fisherman, but I pay a little rent along with
my father.
5073. Are you any relation of the witness Laurence Leslie who was
previously examined?-No.
5074. You have heard the evidence of the previous witnesses from
Quendale?-Yes.
5075. Is it generally correct?-I think it is.
5076. Is there anything you could add to it?-I don't think so.
5077. Although you are not a tenant, do you consider yourself
bound to fish to Mr. Grierson?-Yes, I am bound to do so.
5078. You could be free from that obligation, however, by leaving
the ground?-Yes.
5079. Do you run an account in your own name at Mr. Grierson's
shop?-No. I get a little from the shop sometimes, but I buy what
I want where I think most convenient.
5080. Do you get payment in money from Mr. Grierson?-Yes.
5081. Can you get all your payment in money from him if you
like?-Yes.
[Page 126]
5082. Do you get that money in the course of the year, or at the
end of the season?-Just when we settle once a year.
5083. You don't get advances in the course of the year?-No; I
don't seek any before the end of the year.
5084. Then you have always cash in hand?-Yes.
5085. You are a little ahead of the world?-Yes.
5086. Have you any beach boys in your family?-No; but I was a
beach boy myself about fifteen years ago.
5087. That was before there was any obligation on the Quendale
people to fish for their landlord?-Yes.
5088. At that time how was the arrangement made with beach
boys?-I wrought for five months, and I got 10s.
5089. Was that paid to you in goods or in money at the
settlement?-I got it in money at the settlement.
5090. Was that the usual way of settling at that time?-Yes.
5091. Is it the usual way still that a beach boy gets payment of his
wages in money?-I believe so.
5092. Does he not run an account at the store?-I don't know
anything about that myself.
5093. Have you anything to add to what the other men have
said?-My wife sent up a shawl to a sister of mine in Lerwick to
have it sold, and she sold it to Laurenson & Co. I came up to
Lerwick some time afterwards, in the course of the spring, to take
down a boat, and I went to the shop to get payment of the shawl. I
was not requiring cottons or drapery goods, but I was requiring a
pair of trousers; and when I went to the shop, I was shown a piece
of tweed which I fixed upon to take, but the merchant refused to
give me the cloth for the shawl, because it was a money article,
and I had to take soft goods and other things which were of no use
to me.
5094. Would he not have given you the cloth in exchange for the
shawl at a somewhat higher rate than he would have given it to
you for cash?-He would not give it to me at all, and I had to take
the cottons and stuff that were of very little use to me.
5095. Did you take these home?-No.
5096. Have you had any other dealings of that sort?-No.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JOHN BURGESS, examined.
5097. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Mr. Grierson at
Hillwill?-Yes.
5098. Have you heard the evidence that has been given by James
Flawes and the other witnesses from Quendale, with regard to Mr.
Grierson's fishing business, and their dealings at his shop?-Yes.
5099. Is that evidence correct, so far as you know?-Yes,
5100. Have you anything to add to it?-Nothing.
5101. Do you know anything about the engagement of beach
boys?-Yes.
5102. Are there some of them in your family?-Yes; I have had a
son employed as a beach boy for two years. His wages for the first
year were 30s., and for the second year, 35s.
5103. Was that wage fixed at the commencement of the year or at
settlement time?-It was not fixed until settlement. I did not
know what he was working for until then.
5104. Was he running an account at the time in the shop books?-
A small one. It was very little he was requiring, and he got the
balance in money.
5105. Was there any obligation on him to go as beach boy to Mr.
Grierson?-Yes.
5106. Could you not have engaged him anywhere else?-No; I
wanted to keep him at home beside myself, because I was
requiring him, but Mr Jamieson told me he was requiring him at
the beach, and I must just let him go; and therefore I preferred to
put up with a little hardship to myself and my family, and allowed
him to go to the beach.
5107. When did Mr. Jamieson tell you that?-When he came and
asked me to allow my boy to go.
5108. Was that before the commencement of the first year which
he served?-Yes.
5109. Did you make any objection when Mr. Jamieson asked you
for him?-Yes, I objected a little. I said I would be glad to keep
him at home; but Mr. Jamieson said I would better just let him go,
and I did so, without any more hesitation.
5110. Do you know anything about the difference in the price of
meal at Mr. Grierson's store, and at others?-No; I have had very
little to do with the store.
5111. Do you not deal there?-I deal for a few small things, but
very little.
5112. Do you buy most of your provisions and other things from
other stores?-Yes, for the most part.
5113. Where do you get them?-From Mr. Henderson's.
5114. Are you quite at liberty to go there for them-Yes.
5115. Can you get advances of money from Mr. Grierson in the
course of the year for the purpose of buying goods at Henderson's
and other stores?-Yes. If I was asking for advances, I would get
them; but I don't ask for any until settling time, and then I get the
balance, whatever it is, freely.
5116. Have you an account against you at that time?-Yes.
5117. Have you any pass-book?-No, I don't keep any pass-book.
5118. Is your account read over to you at settlement time?-Yes.
5119. And you see that it is correct?-Yes; so far as my judgment
leads me.
5120. But you say you don't get many goods at the store: is that
because you can get them cheaper elsewhere?-Perhaps that is
sometimes the reason, and sometimes I don't require the things
which are there. I always take my fishing materials, lines and
hooks, and other things of that kind, from the store.
5121. Are these things reasonably priced?-We suppose they are
much the same as in other places in the neighbourhood.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY LESLIE, examined.
5122. You are a fisherman, and a tenant under Grierson at
Gord?-I am.
5123. You have heard the evidence of Flawes and the others?-
Yes.
5124. Do you agree with it, so far as you know?-Yes.
5125. You know the facts which have been stated by them to be
true?-Yes.
5126. Have you been a long time a tenant on that estate?-Yes; for
fifty years at any rate.
5127. At the commencement of that period, were you free to fish
to any one you liked?-No; there has always been a bond on that
estate to fish to Mr. Grierson, or to any one to whom the fish were
let. That has been the case all my time, and I have been more than
sixty years there.
5128. Have you fished to anybody else during any part of that
time?-No; it was always to him. There were three years when
Mr. Bruce and Mr Grierson were in company together.
5129. But before that you were not free?-No; I never knew a time
when we were free all the time I have been there.
5130. Who did you fish to before that?-To Mr. Grierson and to
his father. I fished to the present Mr. Grierson's grandfather, and I
was at the beach to him.
5131. Was he a fish-curer and fish-merchant also?-Yes.
[Page 127]
5132. Was that property ever set in tack to a
fish-merchant?-Yes; but that was before my day.
5133. Has the obligation to fish always been a part of the condition
on which you held your land?-Yes.
5134. Were you present at the time when young Mr. Grierson
intimated to the tenants that he was taking the fishing into his own
hands?-Yes; I and every man and boy on the estate were all
assembled in the same room, and we all heard the same agreement
read
5135. Was not that the beginning of the present state of things
under which you are now bound to fish?-Yes.
5136. Then you were free before that?-No, we were not free; but
we wrought upon a different scale.
5137. Were you bound at that time to fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes.
5138. Is there anything you wish to add to the statement which the
other men have made about the present state of things?-I have
nothing to add to what the other Quendale men have stated.
5139. Have you been getting meal from Mr. Grierson's store?-
No; I have got none there for the last two years. I required none
during that time.
5140. Have you had plenty to supply you from your own
ground?-Yes; or I had bought it at a roup when other people were
going out.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, PETER MOUAT SANDISON, examined.
5141. You are inspector of poor in the parish of Fetlar and North
Yell?-I am.
5142. You were formerly engaged in the fish-curing trade?-I was,
for a considerable time.
5143. Have you heard the evidence of any of the witnesses who
have been examined here to-day?-I have.
5144. Was the mode of paying for fish, and the way in which the
accounts of the fishermen were settled at the end of the year, much
the same in Yell when you were engaged in the business as you
have heard described?-Yes, the settlement was much the same.
5145. Was it made about the same season of the year?-It was
generally made about 20th November on towards the end of the
year.
5146. Does the fisherman who is employed there by a merchant
usually open an account in that merchant's books for provisions
and soft goods and other things which he wants for his family?-
Yes, he does, almost invariably.
5147. In your experience, is that account pretty nearly even on the
two sides, or is there a balance due on the one side or on the other
at the end of the year?-That, of course, depends a great deal upon
the party who is running the account. There is a difference in men
as well as in merchants and fish-curers. Some have larger families
and require a great deal more supplies than others. Some have
smaller families, and the produce of their own farms can serve
them for a longer period in the year than others. From various
causes the amount of their supplies is very different; but for the
last three years I should say there have been only about 20 to 25
per cent of them who have not had money to get at settlement.
5148. It has been said that it is an important thing for the success
of a merchant to get his fishermen into debt to him, so that he may
secure their services for the succeeding year: would you consider
that a safe policy to pursue on the part of a merchant?-I was a
fish-curer and merchant for twelve years myself, and I am always
considered it to be the best policy to have clear men
5149. Did you find that, as a rule, the best men were clear in your
books?-Decidedly. I never found that debt afforded me any hold
whatever upon a man.
5150. Then you found the case to be rather the reverse of what I
have stated?-Yes; and the reason why I think it was the reverse
is, that no man was in debt who could help it, and generally a man
who was in debt was found to be an extravagant, careless man, or
there was something wrong with him. Whenever a man got a
certain depth into debt, he did not care how much deeper he went;
and if I refused him further supplies at the shop, then he just went
to another merchant.
5151. Or he might go south?-Occasionally he did, but not often.
These kind of men don't go south.
5152. But if he went to another man, you could charge him for
your debt?-Yes; my only recourse was to summon him; but what
was the use of doing that. I would only have lost the expense of
my summons, because he had nothing that I could take from him;
or if he had anything, his landlord generally came in with his right
of hypothec.
5153. Could you not arrest the proceeds of his fishing in the hands
of the other merchant to whom he had gone?-No; I think that is
not legal. I have tried it, but I could not succeed. A considerable
number of the men who left me one year went to another fishcurer,
who happened to be their own proprietor. He had not been curing
fish previously. I summoned several of them; and with one of
them especially I had a case in court in Lerwick for a considerable
time. It was ultimately decided that the merchant, as proprietor,
should pay the expense to which I had been at; but as to the
account, I did not get one penny of it. I got my expenses and
nothing more. I give it up as hopeless case.
5154. Had these fishermen been obliged to leave your service and
go to fish for their proprietor?-Yes; at that time they were
obliged to do so.
5155. He had regarded it as part of the obligation under which they
held their land that they should fish for him?-He had not been
carrying on the fishing previously; and he allowed the men to fish
for me, or, least, for the firm which I was conducting; but when he
took the fishing into his own hands, he required his men to fish for
himself.
5156. I suppose he agreed to pay the expenses of the case you
mentioned because he felt it was some hardship to you to deprive
you of the services of these men?-It was his lawyer and mine, I
think, who agreed together about the expenses.
5157. Was the proprietor to whom you refer Mr. Henderson?-No.
5158. Was it Mr M'Queen?-No.
5159. Was he a proprietor in Yell?-Yes.
5160. How many fishermen did you generally employ?-At one
time I employed 90.
5161. Would the whole of these men have accounts in your shop
books?-Yes.
5162. Can you give me some idea of what amount of the proceeds
of their fishing would be paid for by their account for goods?-
The lowest amount that I ever had in an account for goods, when I
settled with a man, was 21/2d. for a whole twelvemonth-the man
got the rest in cash; and the highest, if I remember right, was
somewhere about £10. 10s.
5163. What balance would remain due to that man?-Some years,
of course, he would be in debt; but in other years he would have
something to get.
5164. Was it a very good year in which the man had taken ten
guineas worth from your shop, or was that about the average
amount of their shop accounts?-I am talking about the average
accounts for the twelve years during which I was carrying on the
business. In the last year when I carried on the business on my
own account, the most money I paid to any man for fish was £22.
5165. What would be the amount of that man's contra account for
goods?-I think about six guineas.
5166. Would that be a fair specimen of the accounts?-No; that
was an extra year. There was an extra quantity of fish taken, and
an extra price paid for them; and that man's boat, I think, was the
highest fished boat an the whole station.
5167. But would that be a fair specimen of the amount of goods
which a man took throughout the season?-No.
[Page 128]
5168. Do you think it would be more, or less, an average?-It
would be more than the average. I should say that about £3, 10s.
would be a pretty fair average in our quarter, taking young men,
tenants, and non-tenants all together.
5169. Is it the practice in the trade in Yell to give the fisherman a
state of his account at the end of the year?-No; it is not the
practice.
5170. Or a pass-book?-We always wanted them to keep a
pass-book, but they would very seldom do it. They could not be
troubled with it. Sometimes they would take a pass-book and
bring it for a few times, and then, perhaps, they would not bring it
again for month.
5171. Does that arise from their own carelessness; or is it from a
notion that the shopkeeper cannot be troubled entering the goods
in a book as they are got, because he is too busy to do so?-I never
knew that to be the case; but I have heard many of the men say
they had confidence in their merchant, and that they would not be
bothered to keep a pass-book.
5172. When that was the case, did you, at the settlement, read
over the accounts to the fishermen item by item?-Yes, in most
cases; but some men won't be at the bother of even hearing their
accounts read over. They just say, 'We know you won't cheat us,'
and they hear the sum-total.
5173. Then it is their own fault if they do not know what their
account contains?-Of course it is.
5174. Is it the men who make the settlement with you, or their
wives?-The men, generally.
5175. Then they don't know what they have got out of the shop, if
it is their wives who have been dealing there?-Probably not; but
there is a whole day given to the settlement with these men, and
they have plenty of time to examine into their accounts if they
think there anything wrong.
5176. Did you do anything in hosiery?-I did.
5177. When you bought hosiery goods, did you usually send them
to the south?-Yes.
5178. Did you send any to merchants in Lerwick?-I generally
sent knitted goods to the south; and the worsted I sent to Lerwick.
5179. You bought worsted yourself?-Yes; yarn made by the
country people themselves with their own wool.
5180. What is the usual price for Shetland worsted?-From 2d. to
7d. per cut.
5181. That comes to how much per pound?-We never take it by
the pound; we always take it by the cut. 7d. a cut would, I
suppose, be about 2s. 6d. per ounce, or 40s. per pound.
5182. Would not that be very fine?-Yes.
5183. Would it be the finest Shetland worsted that is made?-I
think it is. I have never bought any finer than that, and I have not
been aware of any being bought finer.
5184. Then you sold that to merchants in Lerwick at some per
centage of profit to yourself?-Not one cent. I never, in all my
experience, got a cent for worsted beyond what I paid for it, and I
never asked it.
5185. Do you think the worsted you have mentioned is the finest
and dearest worsted that is sold out of the island to any
merchant?-I do.
5186. Did you ever know of any worsted being sold out of Yell as
high as 80s. or 90s. per pound?-I may be making a mistake the
weight. I was guessing 4 cuts to the ounce; but perhaps I may be
below the mark. The 7d. worsted I know is very fine; but never
weighed it, and I may be making an unintentional mistake in that
respect.
5187. The 7d. worsted might be lighter than you suppose, and
therefore a pound of it might be more expensive?-Yes.
5188. Is it a common thing to have worsted so fine as that?-No; it
is the exception.
5189. The average will be a good deal lower?-I should think 3d.
would be about the average.
5190. In dealing with people in Yell, you keep an account with the
fisherman?-Yes.
5191. Is there any separate account kept for supplies with the wife
and family?-Yes; there are separate accounts kept with them. I
don't suppose there are many families in the north in which each
member, after arriving at a certain age does not keep a separate
account.
5192. Is that in consequence of their being employed in the fish
trade, or from their having hosiery of their own making to dispose
of?-I don't think it is; but the husband or father is generally at the
fishing, and he supplies the heavy goods that are required for the
family-meal and such like-so far as he is able. Then the wife
has wool, which she either spins into worsted, or perhaps may sell.
She comes to the merchant herself with it and makes her own
bargain. Perhaps she may be due a little when she comes with this
day's supplies for stuff that she has been buying, and anything she
is due may be put to her own account; the next day she may have a
little over, and that is credited to her account. Then the girls, as
soon as they are able to knit, go to the shop on their own account
too with their knitting and with their spinning, and the merchant
upon his responsibility opens an account with them, if he thinks
proper; and they go on with these accounts until perhaps they are
married.
5193. Then hosiery is generally paid for in Yell with goods?-
There is seldom anything asked for except goods.
5194. The account for goods is added up on the one side, and the
account for hosiery on the other, and it is squared up now and
then?-The value of the hosiery is generally given in goods at the
time when the hosiery is sold.
5195. In Yell the hosiery is always sold; it is not made to order?-
No; there is no making to order in Yell.
5196. Is there a separate book kept for those dealings with the
females from that in which you enter your dealings with the
fishermen?-I think in most cases there is a separate book. At any
rate I kept a separate book, but I cannot speak for others.
5197. It has been said that that book is called the women's book: is
that so?-That was the name I gave to it.
5198. But you don't know whether other merchants give it that
name?-No; but I gave it that name because I had no other entries
in it except the accounts had against women.
5199. I understand it was only the home-fishing that you
engaged?-Yes.
5200. You had nothing to do with the Faroe fishing?-No.
5201. Do you think it would be any advantage for the merchants or
for the fishermen if the price to be given for the fish were fixed at
the commencement of the fishing season?-I think that would be
an advantage to the merchants, but not for the fishermen.
5202. How would the merchants benefit by that?-Because they
would then have no bargain to make with the fishermen.
5203. They would have to make a bargain at the commencement
of the year?-Yes; but suppose the bargain were to be, that the
fish were to be paid for at 8s. per cwt.; in that case the fishermen
would require to own his own boat and his own lines, and furnish
them himself, and the fish-curer or merchant would have no risk
and no loss, but would just pay exactly for what he got. But in the
case as it at present stands, the merchant has to furnish the boat
and lines, and salt, and everything connected with the fishing, and
he has the chance in North Yell, as is very often the case, of losing
£5 or £10 or £15 worth of lines in one day in the deep water. The
lines are often left there, and the men cannot get them.
5204. In what why does the merchant furnish the boat to the
men?-He buys the boat, and hires it, as well as the lines, to six
men.
5205. What is the amount of the hire?-£6 per season for boat and
lines.
5206. And that sum is deducted from the credit side of the
fisherman's account?-Yes. The six men come forward to me as
a fish-curer, and they wish me to [Page 129] employ them for the
fishing. I do so, and I give them a boat which, if it is a new boat
ready for sea, will cost £20. I also give them new lines, which,
along with the boat, will cost altogether from £35 to £40. They
agree to pay me £6 of hire for that for the time they use it, and to
deliver the fish caught by them with these lines and in that boat
to me. No price is fixed for the fish, but it is the general
understanding that they are to be paid at the highest currency of
the country. Well, they go to the fishing, and perhaps the very first
day, as I have known to be the case, they may have lost £15 worth
of lines; and as soon as they come ashore, they come to me, and I
have to give them other £15 worth.
5207. Do they not pay for the lines they have lost in that case?-
Not one penny; I take the risk. The sum which I charge covers all
risk, and that is all I get.
5208. Then the fishermen have not much inducement to be careful
of the lines or of the boat?-Oh yes; because if they lose lines,
they lose fish; and if they lose the boat, they stand a chance of
losing their own lives. I have not been a fisherman myself, but I
should fancy that no fisherman would willingly lose lines if he
could help it.
5209. Is it not the case that fishermen sometimes buy the boat
from the curer, and pay for it by instalments running over a certain
number of years?-Not in Yell.
5210. You have had no experience of that system of dealing?-I
cannot say that I have.
5211. Do you think it is of great importance to a fish-curer here to
have fishermen bound to fish for him? Does it tend greatly to
ensure his success in the fishing trade?-I don't know very well
how to answer that question. I had fishermen bound to me during
the period of my lease-about sixty of them I suppose.
5212. Was that a lease which you held of an estate in Yell?-Yes;
Major Cameron's.
5213. Did you lease the whole of Major Cameron's property in
North and Mid Yell?-Yes.
5214. Were these men all bound to fish for you?-They were
leased over to my brother, and I wrought out the business for him,
but the men were never compelled in any way. About one-third of
them were south-going men, and I should think about one-sixth of
them fished to others.
5915. You did not enforce the obligation which you understood
them to be under?-No; I never enforced it in any case but one.
5216. Had you always enough men to man your boats with?-We
had men belonging to other proprietors, and other proprietors had
men belonging to us, and none of us ever enforced that obligation
except in one case, and that was merely in order that we might put
out a boat to sea. There were five men engaged for the boat, and
we could not get another free man, so we had to take one.
5217. Was that long since?-Yes; it was in 1855. But I know of
men who have been offered this year and last year to get their
money every Saturday night, or every day when they landed fish,
and they would not accept it. These were men who were
thoroughly clear.
5218. Was it wages they were offered, or a price for the fish they
delivered?-A price for the fish they delivered. Suppose they
delivered 20 cwt. of fish to me, I would pay them for these fish.
5219. How was the price to be fixed in that case?-It would be
fixed at once.
5220. Would it be fixed at the beginning of the year?-Yes.
5221. Is it long since you proposed that arrangement to any
man?-It was at the settlement of 1870.
5222. Did you offer to pay certain men in that way at that time?-I
did not do it, because I was not in the fishing at that time, but I
was present when it was offered. It was the parties for whom I
was curing fish at that time who offered the money.
5223. Was that Spence & Co.?-Yes.
5224. The offer was made to men in Yell?-Yes.
5225. And the men declined that offer?-Yes; they declined taking
it. They said if they had as much money as would carry them
through the year, they would rather not take any more, but that
they could trust to the merchants.
5226. Was that offer made to many men?-To all their men in
Yell. There were 30 boats, with six men in each boat, and that
offer was made to the whole of them at Cullivoe. The same offer
was repeated this year, and they still would not accept of it. They
accept of not take their cash until the end of the year.
5227. Was that because they wanted to have something at the end
of the year with which to pay their rent?-I suppose that would be
one of their reasons; but they were afraid that if they got their cash
every Saturday, or every fortnight, or every month, they would
spend it carelessly and thoughtlessly, whereas they did not have
the money, they could not spend it.
5228. Are there any leases in Yell now?-Scarcely any.
5229. Have there been leases introduced lately?-No; but there
have been some offered-on Major Cameron's estate, and on Mr.
Irvine's.
5230. Do these leases contain any conditions as to fishing?-No.
5231. Were the conditions such as would interfere with fishing, or
do you know anything about that?-Mr. Irvine's leases were not
such as to interfere with the fishing in any way, and I think there
were three persons who accepted them. With regard to the other
leases, I do not say they were such as would interfere with the
fishings. There was a certain amount of work required to be done
on the farms during the year, but I think all that was required could
have been done when there was no fishing being prosecuted. At
that season, what I would call the fishing was not going on.
5232. But the tenants have not accepted that offer?-There are
two on Major Cameron's property who are under lease, I believe,
or who understand they are under leases. I am not aware if the
lease has ever been signed; I think not.
5233. The poor-rates in your parish, I understand are not so high
as in some parts of Shetland?-I suppose not. They are 3s. for
1872-1s. 6d. on the proprietor and 1s. 6d. on the tenant.
5234. Can you say, from your experience as an inspector of poor,
that pauperism is promoted in any degree by the system which
prevails of settling only once a year?-No; I should not say it was
increased in any way by that.
5235. Does not that system of long settlements induce people to be
a little careless about their money, and improvident?-There are a
certain class who, if they had money, would spend it. That class
are pretty well looked after by the fish-curer; they are only allowed
advances in such small proportions as enable them to get through
the year, and to be as little in arrear as possible at the end. If these
same parties had the money in their hands, I am certain it would
not last them so long as it does in the fish-curer's hands.
5236. That is to say, he will only allow them a certain amount of
supplies from the shop?-Yes; so much a week or a fortnight.
5237. Or cash if they want it, but to a limited extent?-Yes; I
should think that cash would be given to a free man.
5238. But not to a bound fisherman?-Not unless it was for a
necessary purpose-to purchase something, for instance, which
the merchant cannot supply.
5239. If a man is bound to fish to a proprietor or tacksman in Yell,
is that man bound to deal at the shop of his employer?-By no
means.
5240. By a free man, do you mean one who is not in debt?-Yes.
I don't mean to say that cash would be absolutely refused even to a
man who was in debt, but it would not be given to him unless it
was for a necessary purpose.
5241. Can you explain how beach boys are generally employed in
Yell?-Yes, I ought to have a pretty good idea of it.
[Page 130]
5242. Is an account opened at the shop at the same time that the
engagement is made in the beach boy's name, from which he can
get supplies if he wishes them?-Yes, sometimes.
5243. So that when he becomes a beach boy, he is virtually
independent of his father?-Not always. The fish-curer would
prefer not to open an account with him until the end of the season,
because generally, when a beach boy gets an account opened, he
will overrun it if he possibly can. Therefore we prefer not to open
an account with the boys themselves, but to deal with their fathers,
which we very often do. In the case, however, of an orphan boy,
or a boy who has got extravagant or helpless parents, we open an
account with himself.
5244. Is there any difficulty in procuring the services of beach
boys?-I never knew of any difficulty. I have cured fish since
1859, and I never had power over one, and I never wanted to have
it.
5245. You had not power over them even where you had the
fishermen bound to you?-No; they have not been bound for the
last seven years while I have been curing.
5246. Is it seven years since those fishermen on Major Cameron's
estate were bound?-Yes.
5247. At that time did the obligation apply to their families?-No.
5248. Then the boys were not obliged to be engaged to you as
beach boys?-No; we took any boy who was most convenient for
ourselves, without taking into consideration whose tenant his
father was.
5249. It has been said that there is an inclination on the part of the
fish merchant to get the beach boys into his debt, so as to secure
their services in the following year: is there any foundation for that
statement?-I have heard it said, but I never could believe it was
the case.
5250. Are the boys always quite ready to engage for that work?-
They are always very anxious to engage for it, because always
before they enter on hard labour they are able to take a turn on the
beach, and they get something for that.
5251. But what they get for it is generally settled for in goods at
the end of the year?-No, not generally. If a boy runs an account
himself, it is settled in goods; but if it is an account with his father,
it is settled in cash.
5252. May the proportion of the boys who have an account of their
own be about one-half or about one-third of them?-I should say
that for the last three years three-fourths of them have got an
account of their own; but then they were not boys. Although they
get the name of boys, they were old men and women.
5253. You mean that women are employed in that part of the
work?-Yes.
5254. What are their wages?-In 1870 the parties under my
control had from £4, 10s. down to 35s. according to age and
ability; and in 1871 the people employed were all boys except one
man: the boys had from 25s. to 35s., and the man had £3.
5255. Are you still in the fish-curing business?-Yes; I cure their
fish for Spence & Co.
5256. Have you a shop now?-No.
5257. Then you simply manage their curing business?-I merely
dry their fish for them.
5258. And the persons you have spoken of just now are still
employed by you for the purpose of curing?-Yes.
5259. How are their wages paid?-As I was curing Spence &
Co.'s fish, if they chose to go to Spence Co.'s at Uyea Sound
in Unst, they got supplies there in an account, but only about
one-fourth of them did so. The others got their supplies perhaps
in the neighbouring shops. I cannot say where they got them,
but they got cash from Spence & Co. at settling time.
5260. Was that cash advanced during the season, or was it all paid
at settlement?-It was all paid settlement. If they asked for an
advance, they would get it, but I was not aware of any being
advanced.
5261. But such advances as were made by Spence and Co. were
made by taking goods from their shop?-Yes, so far as I know. I
also bought kelp for Spence & Co.
5262. Is there much done in kelp there?-Yes, good deal.
5263. What is the nature of that trade? Do you employ a number
of people to gather the sea-weed?-It is women who do that.
They form themselves into companies of two or three or four;
they gather the seaweed and make the kelp, and then bring it to
a merchant to sell. I had a lease of Major Cameron's kelpshores,
but I transferred that lease to Spence & Co, and afterwards I
bought the kelp and delivered it over to them.
5264. Did the women pay anything to the proprietor for leave to
collect the sea-weed?-No; but I paid 20s. a ton, or rather Spence
& Co. did.
5265. You paid that money for the exclusive right of purchasing
from these women?-For the exclusive right of manufacturing
kelp., We can employ people to collect it if we choose, but we
think it better just to allow the women to do it themselves, without
being forced in any way; and then we paid them 4s. per cwt. in
cash for it, while we paid 20s. a ton to the proprietor and taxes.
5266. What taxes are there on the kelp?-Poor-rates, both as
proprietor and tenant.
5267. Then 4s. per cwt. is the whole payment which these women
receive for gathering the kelp and manufacturing it?-Yes.
5268. They manufacture it and bring it to you?-Yes.
5269. Are they paid entirely in cash?-They have been paid
almost entirely in cash this year, but not altogether.
5270. They have the option of running an account for it at the
shop?-Yes, if they choose to do so; but if they ask cash, they get
it.
5271. Are you aware of any restriction being imposed upon tenants
in Yell with regard to the disposing of their cattle or other stock on
their ground?-I have known an instance or two of that during my
experience in North Yell, but very seldom.
5272. Has that been done when they have been in debt to the
merchant?-Yes; if they were in debt, almost beyond redemption.
5273. Then the merchant has interfered as a creditor merely?-Not
the merchant, but the proprietor.
5274. Was it for his rent that he interfered?-Yes.
5275. In these cases was the proprietor a merchant as well?-Yes,
in some cases.
5276. And he has interfered both for his rent, and for the account
due to him as a merchant?-I cannot say about him being a
merchant. I always understood it was done for rent. I have known
of cattle being taken according to law for a shop account.
5277. You mean that they were poinded?-Yes, by a Sheriff's
warrant.
5278. But is there any practice in Yell of a man marking his cattle
as belonging to a merchant to whom he is in debt?-No; I never
knew that done.
5279. Or coming under an obligation not to sell them to any one
except that merchant?-I could quite believe that a tenant would
offer his cow or his pony, or whatever it might be, to the
proprietor; but I am not aware of any one being compelled to do so
in North Yell. I have myself marked a cow of a defaulting tenant
when I was acting as my brother's agent, and as lessee of Major
Cameron's property, but that was for the rent.
5280. Did you mark it and allow it to remain on the ground?-
Yes; I allowed it to continue in the tenant's hands until I might
think fit to remove it.
5281. Was that man in debt to you as well?-He was in debt as a
tenant only for rent.
5282. Was he not also in debt for goods supplied?-No; because
he was not a fisherman; he was a sailor.
5283. Would you give a higher price for kelp than 4s. a cwt. if the
women had taken payment of it in goods?-No; there was an
understanding at one time that parties would get 6d. less if they
took it in cash, [Page 131] but for the last two years, in my
experience with Spence & Co., and formerly with myself, the
women have been quite at liberty to take cash or goods, and 4s.
was the price. According to the terms of my lease, I was bound to
pay nothing less than 4s. to the parties who made it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined.
5284. You are a tenant under Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh at Toab,
Dunrossness, and you fish for him?-Yes.
5285. You have heard the evidence that was given by William
Goudie and the other fishermen to-day?-Yes.
5286. Do you know it to be correct with regard to the system of
fishing there, and the obligation to fish for Mr. Bruce of
Sumburgh?-Yes; so far as I can remember, it is correct.
5287. Did it happen some time ago that you had sold fish to
another than Mr. Bruce?-It was supposed so.
5288. What was done in consequence?-My house was offered to
be let to another tenant. It was publicly advertised at Messrs.
Hay's shop at Dunrossness.
5289. The you see the ticket put up?-No, I did not see it.
5290. But you knew of it?-Yes.
5291. And in consequence of what you heard about it, did you go
to Mr. Bruce?-Yes.
5292. What did you say? Did you ask why your farm was to be
let?-Yes. He told me before I had time to speak that he was
forced to offer my house to another tenant. I said there was surely
a cause for that, and he said that the cause was that I was selling
fish to another man.
5293. To whom did he say you were selling fish?-To Robert
Leslie.
5294. Was that the case?-No; I proved it not to be the case. I
told him I would bring proof of that if he required it, but I was
never called upon to do so.
5295. You satisfied Mr. Bruce that he was under a mistake, and
you still hold the same ground?-Yes.
5296. Had you reason to believe that you would really have been
turned out of your ground for selling your fish to another than Mr.
Bruce if you had done so?-I had every cause to think so.
5297. Why?-Because at the commencement, when he took the
fishing into his own lands, there was a letter read in my hearing, to
the effect that we were to deliver our fish to him.
5298. Is that the letter which Laurence Smith spoke of to-day?-
Yes, the same letter. It was read by John Harper in my hearing.
5299. Do you know whether the meal is dearer at Grutness store
than you can get it elsewhere?-Yes; I have got a little there.
5300. Have you bought it cheaper elsewhere?-Yes; I have bought
it in Lerwick, and I found it cheaper there than at the store. It was
in 1869 that I bought a boll of meal at Lerwick, and I paid £1, 3s.
for it, while their meal that season was 24s.
5301. Was there any difference in the weight of the boll at
Grutness?-I could not prove that. I had a running account there,
and I sometimes got a boll, sometimes half a boll, and sometimes a
peck; but when I came to settle, it was all run up into bolls, and I
paid 24s. a boll for it.
5302. Had you any reason to suppose that you did not get the same
weight in a boll from the store that you got anywhere else?-I
made an objection to that, and I was told there was a little
deduction made when I got 32 lbs. for a quarter boll instead of 35
lbs, but what that difference was I never knew.
5303. Who told you that?-Gilbert Irvine, the factor.
5304. Did he tell you that he only gave you 32 lbs. for a quarter
boll?-I saw the weight myself. What we call a quarter boll is 35
lbs, and what is called a lispund is 32 lbs.; so that there should be a
difference between what we call boll weight, and 32 lbs. for the
quarter boll.
5305. Then you suspect or believe that you only got a lispund
instead of a quarter boll?-Yes; I am under that impression,
whether I am correct or not.
5306. Had you not the means of satisfying yourself about that?-
Perhaps I might if I had inquired, but I never made any strict
inquiry about it.
Lerwick, January 9, 1872, HENRY SINCLAIR, examined.
5307. You are a tenant on the Simbister estate at Levenwick?-
Yes; and I was formerly bound under a tacks-master.
5308. That was Robert Mouat?-Yes.
5309. You were bound to fish for him?-Yes.
5310. Who told you that you were so bound?-He told me himself.
5311. Did anybody else tell you that?-No.
5312. Was it understood in the neighbourhood that you were
bound to give all your fish to him?-Yes; all my neighbours
understood the same.
5313. Did you at any time deliver your fish to another?-Not one
tail. I delivered them all to him during his tack.
5314. Was there one time when he gave you warning to leave?-
On one occasion, when we had a good fishing, he sent away 7 cwt.
of wet fish and kept it off us. My son was fishing with me at the
time, and he went to Mouat; and they rather cast out about it at
Mouat's house, and he told my son then that we should not be
allowed to sit.
5315. Then it was because of a quarrel about the quantity of fish
entered in the fish-book that you got your warning?-Yes.
5316. You were not warned out because you gave your fish to
another dealer?-No; that was not the cause of it. Then, Mouat
would not give me half of the land to sit in, in case my son sat
beside me.
5317. Do you mean that he wanted your son to fish for him?-No;
he thought that because they had cast out, if I got any land at all,
my son would stay beside me; and that upset my son and made
him lose his senses, so that he is now in the Asylum.
5318. How did that upset your son?-Because he was of a quick
spirit, and he was grieved that we should have been put out of the
land.
5319. But you were not put out of the land?-We were. I went to
the sea, and Mouat took my wife to a piece of the hill-side and
showed her there where we should build our house on a piece of
the open hill.
5320. Did you build your house there?-Yes. He said that if we
would not build our house there, we might lie at the back of a
dyke.
5321. Did you fish for him after that?-Yes.
5322. Were you bound to do so?-My son would not fish, but I
was still upon the land, and I just fished for him.
5323. Did you get your provisions at Mouat's store at
Sandwick?-Yes; I could do nothing else than go to him, and he
has brought me to poverty.
5324. Did you get your meal and other things there?-Yes; I had
to go there for them all.
5325. Did you run an account with him, and settle it when you
settled for your fish at the end of the year?-Yes.
5326. Had you ever a balance to get in money?-I had money in
his hands when I was put out of the land.
5327. Up till the time when Mouat left the place, were you getting
money from him year by year?-I was just getting out of the shop
what I required, for I never got into debt to him.
5328. If anything was over did you get it in money [Page 132] at
the settlement?-No; but the worst thing he did was he last time
when he was going about looking for cattle which he could pick
out and put away.
5329. Did he pick out any from you?-Yes. He took the last one I
had, and he promised to give me a cow for it next week, but it has
never come yet.
5330. Did you get any meal at Mouat's store?-The greater part of
it was fit for nothing but the pigs.
5331. Could you have got it better at any other place near you?-
Yes; but we could not get money from him, and therefore we had
to take the meal from his store.
5332. Would he never advance you money for your fish?-No.
5333. You are not under that obligation now, but you can fish for
anybody you like?-I am not fishing now; I am too old.
5334. But the people thereabout can fish for anybody they like?-
Yes.
<Adjourned.>
Brae: Wednesday, January 10, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
JAMES HAY, examined
5335. Are you a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am a fisherman, but I
have not been at Mossbank. I live at a place called Firth, about a
mile from Mossbank, to the south and east of it.
5336. Have you a bit of land there?-Yes; a small farm.
5337. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Thomas Adie. I go to the
ling-fishing in the summer time.
5338. What bargain do you make with Mr. Adie
about selling your fish to him?-I have never had any bargain
made when I commenced to fish
5339. You just make up a boat's crew, and you are paid for your
fish at the end of the season according to the current rate?-Yes
5340. Is it the understanding with all the boats' crews that they are
to be paid at the current rate?-Yes.
5341. When is the price of your fish paid to you? At Martinmas
when we settle.
5342. Have you an account in Mr. Adie's books for supplies to
yourself and your family in the meantime?-Yes.
5343. Do you deal at his shop for all your provisions and your
purchases of cotton and other things?-I do, for the principal part
of what I need, but not altogether.
5344. How far do you live from Mr. Adie's nearest shop?-About
71/2 miles; his shop is at Voe.
5345. Do you always go there for what you want-Yes; generally I
do that, unless sometimes, when I am needing some small things, I
may go to another: but I am not bound to go to his shop unless I
choose to go.
5346. Then why do you go so far?-Because I generally fish to
Mr. Adie, and I have the greatest part of my dealings with him. I
have not been accustomed to shift very much, unless it might be an
inconvenience to me, and sometimes I have gone to another shop.
5347. How long have you fished for him?-For about fourteen or
fifteen years.
5348. When you settle in November or December, have you
generally a balance of cash to receive?-Sometimes I have and
sometimes not.
5349. Does that depend upon the season?-Yes.
5350. When it has been a good season, you have generally
something to receive?-Yes.
5351. How much did you get at last settlement in cash?-I think I
got about £19 in money.
5352. What was the amount of your account for goods furnished at
the shop?-I had more things in Mr. Adie's hands then than my
summer's winnings; I had cattle in to sell.
5353. Had you sold cattle to Mr. Adie as well as your fish?-Yes.
I had sold a young stot and a cow; I think they came to about £8.
5354. Were they sold at a public auction?-Yes.
5355. And bought by Mr. Adie there?-Mr. Adie.
became good to pay me for them. I could not say exactly who was
the purchaser.
5356. The price of these animals was included in the £19 you got
in cash?-Yes; I paid my shop account, and then I got that money.
5357. Then, deducting the price you got for your cattle, there is
£11 remaining as the price you got for your fish?-Yes; but I
owned the boat myself, and I had the other men's hires to get in.
5358. Were these accounted for to you through Adie's books?-
Yes. There were five of these hires to be paid; there were six of us
in the boat altogether.
5359. What would be their share of the hire?-I think the hire of a
boat is 50s.
5360. Then each of them would pay about 8s. 6d.?-Yes.
5361. So that would be 44s. off for boat-hire, leaving little less
than £9 as the price of your fish, after deducting your shop
account?-No; my share of the summer winning was more than that.
5362. But I am asking you what you got in cash at settlement?-I
think it was about £19, or perhaps a little more.
5363. And £8 was taken off for the cow and about 44s. for the
boat-hire?-The price of the cow and stot and my summer's
earnings were all summed up together, and came to a certain
amount; what I had got from Mr. Adie came to a certain amount
too, and when I paid that off I had about £19 to get in clear money.
5364. But after taking the price of the cow and the value of the
boat-hire off the £19, there would be something like £9 remaining:
was that £9 due to you for anything besides your fish? Was
anything due to you by Mr. Adie, except the price of the cow and
the boat hire, and the price of your fish?-I don't remember
anything else.
5365. Then £9 would be something like the price of your fish?-I
don't remember.
5366. Have you a pass-book?-I have one but I have not brought it
with me.
5367. How much was your shop account?-I think it was about
£17.
5368. Then your fish would be worth about £26 altogether: was
that the value of your take of fish last year?-No; my fish did not
come to that. I think my sixth share came to about £18; but then,
as I owned boat of my own, and had the expense of her to pay I
was paid a little more than the others, so that I might have more
than £18 to get.
5369. How do you square up your account at the shop and your
account for fish at the end of the year?-At the end of the year I
may have more things put into Mr. Adie's hands than my fishing.
For instance last year I had that cow and stot, and perhaps some
other things, and these and my fishing are all put together to my
credit. Then my out-takes and things I have been requiring from
Mr. Adie are put too, and the amount they come to is stated to me.
5370. Is that read over to you, or have you got it [Page 133]
already in your pass-book?-Sometimes I have a passbook, and
sometimes I don't require one. Sometimes I don't fash with it;
that is the truth.
5371. Why is that?-I thought there was very little need for it,
because Mr. Adie and I never disputed about these things, and
when I had a pass-book I was not very particular about keeping it.
5372. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the
season if you want it?-I never was refused it when I asked for it.
5373. Is there generally something due to you for fish at the end
of the season?-Sometimes I have been due Mr. Adie, and
sometimes I have had a little in his hand; but, taking one time with
another, we are generally square, and I am happy to say we are
square in the meantime.
5374. Is there anything you think could be mended in that way of
settling your accounts?-I don't know, I am sure.
5375. Was there anything particular you came here to-day to say
about it?-There is one thing I would say, that we fishermen never
know what we are to have when we commence our fishing. We
work away as if we were blind. We don't know what the price is
to be until the time of settlement, and then we must just take what
currency is given, and we can get no further, and can make no
more for ourselves.
5376. Do you think you could make any better arrangement than
that?-I don't know, I am sure.
5377. Do you think you would be better off if you made a bargain
for a fixed price to be paid to you at the delivery of your fish?-I
might be better off with that in one season, and I might be worse
off in others; but if I made my bargain for that, I could not
grumble, although the fish could be paid better. At settlement I
must stand by my bargain. Then, if the price of fish was less, the
merchant might lose; so that I don't know which way would be
best.
5378. But in that way you would know what you were working
for?-Yes; and I would have no reason to grumble if I had made a
bargain, even although I could have made a better thing of it in
another way.
5379. Have you ever been asked to make a bargain of that kind?-
No.
5380. Have you ever proposed it yourself?-I have turned it over,
and said that it was a hard thing for a poor fisherman like me to
fish and not know what I was fishing for, when other seamen knew
what they were working for; but I never came to any conclusion
about it.
5381. Do you think, if you were paid in that way in the course of
the season as the fishing went on, you could make a better use of
your money by purchasing your goods at other places than Mr.
Adie's shop?-I could not say much about that.
5382. Could you buy your goods as well and as cheaply nearer
home?-I don't think it, because the merchants appear to be all
much about the same in our neighbourhood. They have all one
price for their articles.
5353. Are the merchants about you all engaged in the fishing
business as well as in the shop business?-Not all of them; but
some of them are. Mr. Pole engaged in it; he is the principal
merchant near us.
5384. Are there some of them who are not engaged the fishing
business at all?-There is Robert Murray at Swinister; he is not
much engaged in it. His shop about half a mile from where I live.
5385. Would you be as well served there, and as cheaply, as you
are at Mr. Adie's and at Mr. Pole's?-I don't think would be any
better.
5386. Would it be any advantage to you to have your money at
your own command?-I might think so. A man is always glad to
have some money to lay his hands upon.
5387. In answering my question in that way, do you mean to say
that your money is not at your own disposal?-What I have to get
when I settle I get without a word, and it is at my own disposal;
but I would not like to take money from a man when I was due
him anything. I would like always to pay my debts; and what I had
over when I would know was my own, and I would make the best
of it that I could.
5388. Does that mean that what money you get before settlement
is not your own, and is not at your own disposal?-When I was
standing in need of anything and wanted a little money, which I
did not have myself, I could go to Mr. Adie when I was fishing for
him, and ask him for £1 or £2, and he would give it to me, and
then when I settled I would pay it back to him.
5389. That is to say, it would be charged against you at
settlement?-Yes.
5390. But do you mean to say that if you get £1 or £2 in that way,
you would not be at liberty to spend it as you pleased, and to buy
goods with it at any shop you liked?-No. I could go where I
liked with it, if I got it from him, because, of course, I would pay it
back to him again, and he would not care what use I made of it.
5391. Would you rather have more cash advanced to you during
the season than you have in an ordinary way at present, and not get
all your goods at Voe?-I could not exactly say about that; I
might. If I was paying down cash for the goods, I might get them a
little cheaper than by marking them down.
5392. Would you get them cheaper for cash at Mr. Adie's own
shop at Voe?-Well, money is a thing that every person is always
glad to get hold of; and he might give me 1d. or 2d. down upon an
article for ready money, which I would not get if he were to mark
it down in his book.
5393. Do you know that you get a discount of 5 per cent. there for
cash?-I have got it before. I have got 5 per cent. discount when I
settled.
5394. Was that on goods that were entered in your account?-Yes;
I have got that. I am not perfectly sure if I will get it this year, but
I know that I have got it before.
5395. If you get that when you settle at the end of the year, would
you get anything more if you were to pay in cash?-I am not able
to say.
5396. You just think you would like to have your money in your
hand as you deliver your fish: is that the notion you have?-I don't
know whether it would be better to get it in my hand then, or to
wait until I got it all at once at the conclusion.
5397. Are there some advantages in both ways of dealing?-I
believe there are.
5398. Perhaps you would spend it too fast if you had it in your own
hands?-I don't know about that. I would not like to spend it if I
had it, unless it was for something that I really required to spend it
on.
5399. Are you under any obligation to go to Mr. Adie's shop for
the goods you want in the course of the year?-None that I am
aware of.
5400. You have never been told it of course; but is it a great deal
more convenient for you to go there than to deal at another
shop?-No; it is not more convenient. I could go to it shop
somewhat nearer; but still I don't think I would be any better; and
as it has always been my custom to go there, I just continue to go.
5401. Is it only because it is your custom to go, or is it because you
are in the way of delivering your fish to Mr. Adie, that you go to
his store?-Mr. Adie has been very obliging to me many times by
helping me when I could not help myself, and therefore I always
felt a warm heart towards him, and went to his store.
5402. But is it the way with fishermen here, that they got to the
shop of the man that they sell their fish to?-I am not able to
speak to that except for myself.
5403. Do you not know what your neighbours do? It depends on
the circumstances that my neighbours are in. If they are indebted
to the man they are fishing to, of course they will go to that man,
and perhaps have very little to go to him with.
5404. Are those neighbours of yours who are so indebted also
likely to engage to fish for the same merchant during the following
season?-Yes. When man is short of money, and has not enough
with [Page 134] which to pay his land rent, he may go to the man
he is fishing to, and he will help him with what he requires, but the
understanding in that case is that he will serve him at the fishing
for the rising year. That is generally the way it is done.
5405. Do you mean that when a man gets advances at a merchant's
shop, it is understood that he must fish to him in the coming
year?-Yes; that is generally understood.
5406. Have you had to do that yourself?-No; I have never been so
hard up as that in my time.
5407. You have never been behind at the settlement?-Not very
often. Sometimes I have been, and I have got advances from Mr.
Adie without a word; but I was intending to fish for him in the
coming year before I asked them.
5408. And you would make as good a bargain with him as with
any other fishmaster?-I have always thought so.
5409. So that you did not fish to him because you were under any
compulsion?-No.
5410. Were you under any obligation to do it because you were in
his debt?-No. I have never been so deep in his debt but what, if I
had it to do, I could have made some effort to get myself clear.
5411. Therefore the answer you previously gave only meant that
there might be some men among your neighbours so far in debt
that they were obliged to fish to a particular merchant?-Yes;
when he supplied them with goods.
5412. Do you think there are many of those men among your
neighbours?-I have no doubt there are more that way than there
are the other way.
5413. Do you think that arises from the length of time that passes
before you can get your money, or is there anything else you can
think of that might mend that state of matters?-I cannot say.
5414. Is there anything else you want to tell me about the way in
which dealings are carried on here?-No.
5415. You know you are on your oath, and you bound to speak the
truth, and nobody can hurt you for anything you say to-day?-I
trust that I shall say nothing but the truth, so far as I know.
5416. From whom do you hold your land and house?-From Mr.
Bell of Lunna.
5417. Are you not bound by the terms of your lease to fish for any
particular person?-No; he did not bind me to do that. I got
liberty to serve myself and to fish for any one I pleased when I
took the land from him; only if I went to Skerries I would have had
to fish for John Robertson, who had a tack of Mr. Bell's land; but
if I fished in any other way, he did not stop me from fishing for
any person.
5418. But if you went to Skerries, and fished there during the
summer, you would be bound by your bargain to fish for Mr.
Robertson?-Yes.
5419. How do you know that that is an obligation upon you?-I
was told so by the proprietor when I took the land.
5420. Was that told you by Mr. Bell himself?-Yes.
5421. Did he tell you at the same time, that if you fished elsewhere
than at Skerries, you were at perfect liberty to fish for any one you
liked?-Yes. He told me I was not bound to fish for Mr Robertson
unless I fished at Skerries; but that if I fished at Skerries I must
fish for him.
5422. Are there people in your neighbourhood who go to fish at
Skerries?-There is one boat which generally fishes there.
5423. But they might go elsewhere if they chose?-I cannot say
for that.
5424. Do you know of any person who has been threatened or
turned off his ground on the estate of Lunna in your
neighbourhood for refusing to fish to a particular person?-I do
not.
5425. Are the fishermen there all free?-About us they are, so far
as I know: that is about Firth, a mile from Mossbank. There are
some of Mr. Bell's tenants who have fished along with me, and
there was nothing said to them any more than to me because they
did not fish at Skerries.
Brae, January 10, 1872, ANDREW TULLOCH, examined.
5426. Where do you live?-In a town called Brough, near
Mossbank.
5427. Whom do you fish for?-I have been fishing for myself for
two years, and my fish have been sold to Mr. Leask and delivered
at Lerwick.
5428. Do you cure for yourself?-Yes; I get a man to cure my fish.
5429. Do you engage a man to cure the whole fish of your boat's
crew?-Yes; it is a small boat. There are three men and two boys
in the crew.
5430. Do you think you make more of your fish in that way than if
you delivered them green to a fishcurer?-I think so.
5431. Does Mr. Leask buy them from you cured?-Yes.
5432. He also cures fish himself?-Yes.
5433. When is the price fixed for your fish?-I think it was on 1st
November last that we were paid.
5434. You take all your fish to Lerwick at once, once a year, and
you get your money paid to you at the time?-Yes.
5435. Is it paid to you in cash?-Yes.
5436. Do you deal at any shop of Mr. Leask's?-No. I commonly
deal at Mossbank, at Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop.
5437. Do you deal for cash?-Yes.
5438. You pay ready money for what you get?-Yes. Sometimes I
take things on credit too; but I am not compelled to do it. I need
not do it unless I choose.
5439. Then you are perfectly free to fish for anybody you like, or
for yourself if you prefer it?-Yes; and I think it is the best way to
fish for myself.
5440. Is that a common thing in your neighbourhood?-It is not.
5441. Why don't the men in your neighbourhood adopt that system
if it is the best way?-I don't know. I think for myself, and I
suppose other people do the same.
5442. On whose ground are you?-I am on ground belonging to
the estate of Busta.
5443. Are the fishermen on the Busta estate all free?-Yes.
5444. There is no tacksman over them, but the fishermen as a rule
fish to anybody they like?-I suppose they do; at least, so far as I
know, that is the case.
5445. In what way do you think you make more of the fish by
curing them yourself than by selling them green?-When I cure
them or get them cured for myself, and sell them, I think I can get
the turn upon them; and I get cash, which enables me to buy my
goods where I can get them cheapest.
5446. Do you get goods cheaper at the shop at Mossbank by
paying cash than if you were getting them on credit?-No.
5447. Do you pay the same price for goods there in cash as if they
were to be settled for at the end of the year?-Yes.
5448. Have you tried both ways?-Yes.
5449. How long is it since you began to cure your own fish?-It is
only two years ago.
5450. How much did you make during the last two years for each
man's share?-For the last year we had £8, 13s. each.
5451. Do you think that was more than the average of men who
fished for other people?-Yes; taking the price of green fish, I
think it was.
5452. Do you know what any of your neighbours got for their
green fish?-They got 8s. for ling, and 6s. 6d. for cod and tusk.
These were the prices I heard.
5453. Were you fishing during the whole season?-Yes.
5454. How many cwts. of cured fish did you take to Mr. Leask?-I
think we had thirty odd cwt. of cured fish; one part of that was
ling, and one part was tusk and cod. We had about nineteen cwt.
of ling and we sold them at £23.
[Page 135]
5455. When you say that the price for ling is 8s. a cwt., that is the
price for green ling?-Yes.
5456. And 21/4 -cwt. of green ling make one cwt. dry?-Yes; that is
what the fish-curers calculate upon.
5457. So that nineteen cwt. of cured fish would have been
something less than forty-three cwt. green, and you got £23 for
that?-Yes.
5458. But from that price you must allow something for the
expense of curing?-Yes; it would be from £2 to £2, 10s. per ton
for curing.
5459. So that you made some profit by selling your fish in that
way?-Yes.
5460. Do you think that, when you cure for yourself, you have any
benefit by having the money in your hands to buy goods with
where you please?-I think so.
5461. Do you buy cheaper when you have the money in your
hands?-Yes; we can buy cheaper in Lerwick than we can do
elsewhere.
5462. Do you often buy things at Lerwick?-Some times I do.
5463. I thought you said you bought generally at Mossbank?-
Some things I buy at Mossbank; but I buy at several places.
5464. If you were fishing for a particular fish-merchant, would you
buy more at his shop than you do when you are fishing for
yourself?-That is the general way.
5465. What is the reason for that?-Because a great many of the
men have not money to go anywhere else.
5466. And therefore they are induced to go where they can get
credit?-Yes.
5467. You think that is not such a good way of doing as curing
for yourself, and having the money in your own hands?-It is
not; but, at the same time, even when I was fishing to a particular
fish-curer, I endeavoured to keep my credit; and if I had asked
money from him to go on with, I would have got money as well as
goods.
5468. It would not have been refused; but I suppose you would
have got more advanced to you in goods than in money?-I could
not say that.
5469. Suppose that in July, about the middle of the season, when
about half of your fish had been caught, you wanted supplies:
would you generally be allowed in the fish-merchant's shop to get
any quantity of goods you liked on credit?-Yes.
5470. And would you at that time be advanced any amount of
money that you chose to ask?-Yes; on a moderate scale. I could
get money as well as goods.
5471. Suppose you were likely to get £20 as the amount of your
fish account at the end of the season and that one half of the
season was over, would they allow you to run up an account at the
fish-merchant's shop to the amount of £10 or £12 to the end of
July?-I don't know. I never tried the experiment.
5472. But you know the practice among your neighbours and in
the shops where you deal: do you think there would be any
objection to allow an account to run up to £10 or £15 for shop
goods?-I don't think there would. .
5473. Would there be any objection to advancing you £10 or £15
in money?-I could not say that.
5474. Was that ever tried by anybody you know?-No; I never
tried it myself, and I never heard of it being tried, and therefore I
cannot say whether it would be allowed or not.
5475. But you have no doubt you would get £12 or £15 in
goods?-I have little doubt that I would,-that is, if I were fishing
for that particular fish-curer.
5476. What fish-curer were you employed by last?-When I was
last employed by any one, it was Mr. Pole, Mossbank.
5477. At that time did you deal at his shop for your supplies?-
Yes; for the most part. I dealt more with him then than I have
done since.
5478. Your account was settled, at the end of the year?-Yes.
5479. What kind of account had you generally at settling time for
supplies to your family?-I cannot recollect exactly how much it
was; but sometimes it may have been £3 or £4.
5480. Then you will not be spending so much as that in the shop
now?-No; I have not had occasion to do it for the last two years.
5481. Were you under any sort of obligation to deal at Mr. Pole's
shop more than at another shop when you were fishing for him?-
Not a bit. They did not prevent me from going anywhere I chose.
When I chose to ask anything in their shop, I took it at their own
price; but if I did not like it, they did not compel me to take it.
5482. Is there anything else you want to say on the subject of this
inquiry?-For my part, I have little to say, because I am not so
much concerned in it as some men are. I have my freedom and my
liberty.
5483. You think that some other men are more interested in these
matters than you?-Yes.
5484. In what way are they interested?-Owing to their
circumstances; some of them have families, and they must go to
the fish-curer and be supplied by him. They get most of their
payment in goods, and they cannot get money.
5485. How can they not get money? Is it because they run up an
account at the merchant's shop?-Yes.
5486. But they will get money if they ask it?-Yes; they might get
money too.
5487. Why is it that they do not get money?-I don't know. What
I mean is, that if they run up an account at the shop, they cannot
have money of their own with which to buy things cheaper
elsewhere.
5488. What makes them run up an account for goods? Is it
because they cannot get money easily?-Very likely it is.
5489. But you say they would get money if they asked it?-If they
were to ask for money, I don't see any reason why they should not
get it as well as goods.
5490. And to the same amount?-I cannot say for that.
5492. Do you mean that the money which they would get if they
were asking for it in the course of the fishing season would be
regarded as a loan, and not as a payment for their fishing?-No.
5492. Suppose a man were to ask a fish-curer for an advance of
money in July, would not that advance of money in July, would
not that advance be looked upon as if he were asking for a loan of
money?-No; that is not generally the way they would do. If I
were fishing to a fish-curer, and giving him my fish, and if I were
to ask for some money, it would just go to my account in the same
way as if I was taking out goods until the fish were sold at the end
of the year when I settled, and my fish would pay for that money
as well as for the goods.
5493. But would it not be considered a favour to give money in
that way?-I don't think so.
5494. Do you think the fish-curer would be bound to give you
money if you asked for it in the beginning of the season?-Yes.
5495. And would he be as ready to give it to you as he would be to
give you goods?-No; I don't think he could be expected to do
that. However, I cannot say much upon that subject, because I
never asked for much money,
5496. Did you think it would be asking a favour to ask for
money?-I cannot say.
5497. Did you think the merchant would rather give you goods?-
Of course he would expect us to take the goods, from the way of
dealing which prevails.
5498. Do you mean that the practice is for the men to get goods
advances rather than cash advances during the season and before
the settlement?-That depends upon the circumstances of the men
who are fishing. Sometimes they require money to pay their rent
with, and that is generally advanced to them in money; but when
they require goods they usually take them from the fish-curer by
whom they are employed.
5499. Do you mean that they don't get money unless it is required
by them for some particular purpose?-No; unless they have
money to get on their own earnings. If they have money over at
settlement time, they will get it in cash when the account is
balanced.
[Page 136]
5500. Of course they get it at settlement time; but before then can
they get money from the man who employs them, unless for some
particular purpose?-No.
5501. Any advances that are made then are made in goods?-Yes;
unless they are required in money.
Brae, January 10, 1872, JOHN HENDERSON, examined.
5502. You are a fisherman at Mossbank?-I am.
5503. On whose land do you live?-On Sheriff Bell's.
5504. Are you bound to fish to any particular merchant?-No; not
unless I go to the Skerries.
5505. Who do you fish for just now?-For Mr. Pole.
5506. Are you settled with at the end of the year like the other
men?-Yes.
5507. Do you deal at Mr. Pole's shop?-Very little.
5508. Where else do you go for your articles?-To any shop where
I think I can get them cheapest and best.
5509. You are quite at liberty to go where you please?-I am.
5510. You can deal at Lerwick or at Voe, without running any
chance of losing your engagement for the next season?-I can.
5511. Have you generally a good lot of cash to get from Messrs.
Pole, Hoseason, & Co., at the end of the year?-I have generally
the principal part of my earning to get.
5512. Why don't you deal more at Mr. Pole's store?-Because,
when I have money, and can go anywhere else, I can perhaps get
my goods a little cheaper.
5513. Is it not handy for you to deal at the Mossbank shop?-It is
handy, but it is no great hardship for me to go anywhere else if I
think I can get my things a little cheaper.
5514. Can you tell me any articles that are cheaper in the one place
than in the other?-Meal, for instance, is always higher in
Mossbank than it is in Lerwick. Taking the meal from Mossbank
at the retail price, there will be a difference of perhaps 8s. or 9s.
per sack on that, and on buying a sack in Lerwick for cash. The
sack is 280 lbs. weight, or 2 bolls, and that is a difference of 4s. or
4s. 6d. per boll.
5515. When did you try that?-I have tried it now for a good few
years.
5516. Is that the difference if you buy it wholesale,-a sack at a
time?-Yes.
5517. If you were buying a sack at Mr. Pole's store, how much
would you pay for it?-I have never been under the necessity of
buying a sack there. What meal I have bought at their shop has
always been in small quantities: perhaps about a quarter boll
weekly.
5518. What is the price of a quarter boll?-It is different prices:
sometimes higher and sometimes lower.
5519. What did you pay for it last?-I have not had a quarter boll
of meal from Mossbank this year at all, because last year we
thought it too dear, and therefore we gave up taking it.
5520. Tell me any particular time when you bought meal at
Mossbank, and found that at the same time, or within a short time
after it or before it, you could have got the same meal in Lerwick
for less money?-Not the past summer, but the summer before, I
had meal from Mossbank, taking it in small portions as it was
required, such as a quarter boll weekly; and at the same date, when
I was getting these small portions, I got meal from Lerwick to my
own house for about 10s. of difference on the sack,-only the
meal that I bought from Lerwick was a whole sack, and ready
money was given for it, while the meal bought from Mossbank
was in small portions, and it was got on credit until the time of
settlement.
5521. Do you think that difference was not accounted for by the
difference between wholesale and retail prices?-For instance,
would you not have got the two bolls at Mossbank, if you had
bought that quantity there, as cheaply as you got them at
Lerwick?-No; there would have been 5s. of difference if I had
bought two bolls there.
5522. But there would be the expense of carrying the meal from
Lerwick: that would be worth something?-That was 8d., and the
shipping of it 2d.
5523. Is there any other article you think you have an advantage on
in the same way?-Yes; there are different articles. For instance,
lines are one principal thing we require, and for my sixth share, I
would have nineteen lines in my bundle.
5524. Do you buy your own lines?-I do.
5525. Is it the practice with men fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.
to do so?-Some of them do, and some do not; some of them
have lines of their own; some buy them and pay for them by
instalments; and others hire them. Last year I went to Lerwick and
bought my own lines; and my nineteen lines, when they were
ready to go to sea, cost me £2, 1s. I heard some of the men who
were in the boat say that their portion of the lines, of the same
quantity, cost them 51s. or 52s.; that would be paid for at
settlement.
5526. Could they have got them cheaper at Mossbank if they had
paid for them there in cash?-I could not say for that, because I
never inquired into it.
5527. Is there anything else you can mention which you can buy
cheaper elsewhere than you can at Mossbank?-If a man has ready
money, he will always get little discount wherever he may
purchase his goods.
5528. Then I suppose it is the fault of the men themselves that they
do not get their ready money from Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and use
it as they like?-Mr. Pole won't refuse money to any man who has
it to get; or if he knows he is an honest man, he will give him an
advance of money, although he does not have it earned.
5529. But if a man could carry on to the end of the year, he would
get all the price of his fish in cash?-Every penny.
5530. And then he could do with it as he pleased, and buy where
he chose?-Yes; he could go to any place that was cheapest.
5531. Have you heard the evidence of James Hay and Andrew
Tulloch?-Yes.
5532. Do you think that what they stated about the system of
things here was generally correct?-I cannot say that there was
much wrong in what they said; but I think there would not be a
better plan than ready money if it could be obtained.
5533. Would not all the fishermen get ready money if they
contracted to have a fixed price for their fish, to be paid to them as
the fish were delivered?-They would. There is no fish-merchant
who would not pay them the value of their fish in money if they
have it to get; but how can they get it in money if they take it out
in goods? They cannot expect that.
5534. But if the men made a bargain that they were to be paid in
money for their fish every time they were delivered, they would
not take it out in goods then?-No; they would have money.
5535. Is that ever done? Is the bargain ever made for a fixed price
at the beginning of the season to be paid according to the weight of
fish when it is delivered and every time it is delivered?-No; I
never had that bargain, and I never heard of it.
5536. Have you ever heard of any different bargain from the
common one of settling at the end of the year?-Yes; there is
sometimes a difference in the bargains with regard to the lines,
when men have lines of their own, and do not require to hire them.
5537. But in all those cases the settlement is at the end of the year
5538. Have you heard of any bargain for settling at another time
than at the end of the year, and in a different way?-No.
5539. Did you ever know of men agreeing to fish for wages?-Not
in the ling-fishing.
[Page 137]
5540. Do you think free men would agree to that?-I don't know:
some of them might.
5541. Would you agree to it?-I would just as soon run my own
chance.
Brae, January 10, 1872, GILBERT BLANCE, examined.
5542. You are a fisherman at Mid Garth?-Yes; in the immediate
neighbourhood of Mossbank.
5543. Do you hold land under Mr. Bell?-No; the landlord under
whom I held is dead, and the property is now under trustees. Mr.
Sievwright, writer, Lerwick, is the factor for it.
5544. Are you under any obligation to fish to a particular
fish-curer?-No.
5545. You can fish for anybody you please?-Yes.
5546. For whom do you fish?-For Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, &
Co.,
5547. Do you deal at their shop for all your goods?-Yes.
5548. Do you find that you have generally a balance to receive in
cash at the settlement?-No; I have generally had a balance
against me. I have never had a balance in cash to receive except in
two special years. One of these was one year when they were
paying 8s. per cwt. for the green fish; and the other was the past
year, when they were also paying 8s.
5549. Do you think you are as well served at Messrs. Pole,
Hoseason, & Co.'s shop as you would be if you took your money
and spent it where you pleased?-I don't know much about the
difference in that respect.
5550. Have you ever made any comparison between the prices
which you pay for your goods at their shop, and what you would
pay for them elsewhere?-No, I have never tried that.
5551. What is generally the amount of the balance against you at
the end of the year?-It may range from £17 to £5.
5552. Do you get any payments in cash in the course of the
year?-No; very seldom. When men are in debt there are no
payments in cash; but if I need a little money, I can call upon
them for that assistance.
5553. Do you mean when you want money for rent, or anything of
that sort?-Yes, for rent.
5554. Do you consider that you are under any obligation to engage
to fish for them in consequence of being in debt in that way?-I
consider myself obliged to fish to them so long as I am indebted to
them.
5555. Have you ever thought of engaging to fish for another
company, or attempted to do so?-I have thought of it, but I did
not think it was giving them fair play to offer my services to fish
for another when I was indebted to them.
5556. Do you know many men, who are fishing to them, and who
are indebted to them in the same way?-Yes; there are different
men I know who are indebted to them, perhaps not to so large an
extent, but still to some extent.
5557. Do they consider it fair to continue to fish to the merchants
to whom they are in debt rather than to engage with another?-We
hear them say very little about that.
5558. They don't complain?-No; we don't hear them complain
much.
5559. Do you think you would get a better price for your fish if
you were to engage with any one else?-We might make better
bargains with other men, but we cannot attempt to do that in our
present way of fishing.
5560. Is that because in the present way of fishing no price is
fixed?-Yes; no price is fixed until the end of the year.
5561. Do you think the price fixed at the end of the year ought
sometimes to be higher than it is?-We sometimes do think that,
because, as has been already stated by the witnesses, although we
are fishing for the whole season, we don't know what we are to
obtain for our fish. That depends upon the market which the
merchant has to make for the fish before he can pay the value of
them. The price will range from 8s. to 4s. 6d., according to the
markets they make.
5562. The fishermen, I understand, have nothing to do with fixing
the price?-Nothing whatever.
5563. Have you ever cured your own fish?-No.
5564. Nor sold them?-No.
5565. Have you any reason to believe that the current price as
fixed by the fish-merchants is not the fair value of the fish
throughout the season?-Some of the fishermen think they don't
get so much for their fish as they ought to get, but perhaps that
may be a mistake on the part of the men.
5566. We are all apt to be a little discontented; but do you think
there is any reason for that belief more than the natural tendency
of the men to discontent?-I cannot say whether there is any real
ground for that belief or not.
5567. You cannot tell any case in which you thought you got less
for your fish than you ought to have got?-I could not mention any
particular instance of that, because we never see the account of
sales which the merchants make of the fish.
5568. Do you know when the fish sales take place?-I think it is
some time about the month of November.
5569. How soon after that are you told what you are to get for your
take?-When we come to settle, either on the last of November or
the first of December..
5570. You heard the evidence of the previous witnesses: do you
think it was generally correct?-I think it was very correct, so far
as I know.
5571. Has your experience with regard to the system of dealing
been the same as was described by them?-It has been the same as
the last witness described.
5572. But you don't know whether you got goods dearer at Pole,
Hoseason, & Co.'s shop than you could get them elsewhere?-No,
I don't know anything about that, because all we require, such as
meal, lines, calico, and other things, comes from their shop.
5573. What price do you pay for meal?-We don't usually buy
meal in wholesale, as the last witness did, but probably in pecks or
two pecks or lispunds.
5574. Do you keep a pass-book?-No.
5575. Why not?-Because we trust to the honesty of the
merchants.
5576. Do they not want you to take a pass-book?-They would
have no objection to us having one, but many of us are not good
arithmeticians, and we could not make much of them although we
had them.
5577. When you were out fishing, have you sometimes sold your
fish to others than Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I have not been in the
habit of doing that.
5578. Is it sometimes done?-Perhaps it is by some individuals.
5579. What is their reason for doing that?-I cannot say what their
reason may be, unless it is to have immediate supplies.
5580. Or money?-Yes, or money; but it is commonly for
something such as refreshments which they wish to take on their
way to or coming from the fishing-ground.
5581. Where do you usually meet the people who buy your fish
from you in that way?-Sometimes they are met in the course of
our fishing operations at the land's end.
5582. On the land?-No; on the sea in a little boat. They will take
any small portion of fish we may give them, and hand us
refreshments in return.
5583. Do you get a larger sum for your fish in that way?-No; I
never knew of any larger sum that was given in that way than the
country currency.
5584. Is that practice what you call smuggling the fish?-I suppose
so.
5585. Do you think it is much done?-It is not much done now.
Formerly it was done to some extent, but not to any great extent.
5586. I suppose there were some factors or merchants in the
country who did it good deal in buying fish on the sly in that way
at one time?-I believe there was at one time, but not so much
now.
[Page 138]
5587. Did they give a higher price for the fish than the fish-curers
give?-Yes.
5588. Was it a higher price than the currency?-Yes.
5589. Are there it few of these men still?-Yes.
5590. They do come from Lerwick?-No; they are just people
living in the country.
5591. Do they buy the fish either green or cured?-They will take
them more readily green than cured, because they cure them for
themselves. The factor who buys generally cures for himself.
5592. Is the man who buys fish in that way generally a merchant
who keeps a shop himself somewhere?-Generally he has a small
bit of a shop.
Brae, January 10, 1872, THOMAS MOUNTFORD ADIE, examined.
5593. You are a fish-merchant, and the principal partner of the
firm of T.M. Adie & Co. Voe?-Yes, the business is conducted in
my own name, but my sons have an interest in it.
5594. Do you employ a great number of fishermen?-Yes, a large
number.
5595. Are the contracts which you enter into with them different in
some of their details?-As a rule they are much the same.
5596. Although there may be some difference, the general rule is,
that in the home fishing the fisherman delivers his fish to you at a
price that is fixed at the end of the season?-Yes.
5597. Have you tried to arrange with your fishermen for dealings
upon any different system from that?-I have not.
5598. Have you not on one or two occasions made different
arrangements?-On one or two occasions I have made contracts
with some of them for a fixed price.
5599. That price being fixed at the beginning of the season?-Yes.
5600. Has that generally turned out well?-It did not turn out well
in these cases. The price advanced in the course of the season, and
I had to pay the men the advanced price in order to satisfy them.
5601. Would the men have been discontented otherwise?-Yes.
5602. Is it long since that happened?-It is several years now;
perhaps 12 or 14 years ago.
5603. Do you think it would be any advantage for the curer or the
fishermen if that system were generally adopted?-My impression
is, that the fishermen would suffer, for this reason, that fish in the
summer season are always sold at a less price, and any one buying
green fish must calculate what he can give for them according to
the value of the article then. By delaying the settlement till the
end of the season, the fishermen take the chance of the price either
rising or falling, but the probability is that it will rise, because salt
fish usually sell better in the winter season than in summer.
5604. So that if the price were fixed at the beginning of the year,
you think it would generally be fixed too low?-Yes.
5605. But both the fishermen and the master would take into
account at the beginning of the season the probability of the price
rising in winter, and the fact that it generally does rise then, would
they not?-It is scarcely likely that that would be much taken into
account; because when a man buys an article he buys it at the price
of the day, and not at what the price of it may become. There is no
doubt that would be a more satisfactory way of dealing if it could
be done but I don't see how it could be adopted, because no curer
could offer to buy fish offhand at a price that would satisfy the
fishermen.
5606. Is the probability that the fishermen would be discontented
your principal reason for objecting to that system?-Yes.
5607. If it could be carried out, would it simplify your own
business?-Yes, it would simplify my business very much. If the
men had boats, and lines of their own, and did not need any
advance, but had all their money to take, and I could pay it at the
end of the week, it would simplify matters very much indeed.
5608. Under that system, however there would be difficulty in
advancing the men?-We could not give advances to them at all;
and if we did not make advances, they could not go to the fishing.
5609. Is the system generally followed in your establishment, that
of advancing boats and lines to the fishermen?-Yes, whenever it
is needed. There are solitary cases where men buy their own
boats, having money laid past; but that is very rare.
5610. When they do so, do they pay the price by instalments, or do
they pay down the money?-They pay for them by instalments on
a particular principle of payment which has been adopted for the
purpose. That principle is this: The boat is built by any carpenter
the men choose to employ; the price is paid for it, and that is
charged to their account. There is generally a hire of £2, 10s. paid
every year for a six-oared boat; that is placed to the credit of the
boat yearly, to enable the men to pay up for their boat, so that they
may really have it of their own, because I consider it would be
better for me if they had them. When the men buy their boats, I
give them 3d. per, cwt. additional for each cwt. of fish caught to
go to the credit of their boat until it is paid; and when once the
boat is their own, they get that additional price into their own
private accounts, and it is paid to them in cash whenever the price
of the boat is paid up.
5611. Do you mean that you give 3d. per cwt. higher to these men
than you give to men who hire a boat?-Yes.
5612. And you give that to a man who has a boat of his own to
begin with?-If he has a boat of his own, he gets the 3d.
5613. Then, when you charge for boat-hire, you charge 3d. per
cwt. in addition on the price of the fish?-No, we don't charge
that, but they get 3d. per cwt. less. For instance, the price this year
for ling was 8s. The crew gets settled for that; and if they had
been buying the boat, we put 3d. per cwt. to the credit of the
account for the boat, in order to enable them to acquire it for
themselves.
5614. And you would give the same advantage to man who
possessed his own boat originally?-Yes; if he possessed his own
boat, he would be better entitled to it, because then I would be
running no risk. In the other case, the men might lose the boat,
and then I would have nothing to get for it.
5615. But when you charge the boat-hire, the men are obliged to
take a smaller price for their fish in addition to having the hire to
pay for it?-Yes, and even in that case we are worse off, because
the boats cost much more than the amount of the hire will cover.
We are better off giving them the 3d. to enable them to get a boat
of their own.
5616. I suppose when the boat is their own the men take better
care of it, and it will last longer?-Yes, very commonly.
5617. And I suppose they take better care of it even before it
becomes their own?-Generally they do, although I have some
men who take very great care of their materials even when they are
hiring them. There are great differences in men in that way.
5618. Is that a system you have adopted yourself, in order to
induce the men to become the owners of their own boats?-Yes, I
don't know any other curer who uses it.
5619. That shows that you have no interest in having the men
hiring out a boat from you?-No; very far from it.
5620. How long does it generally take for a man to pay off a boat
when he buys it in that way?-Buying it in that way, if their
fishing was anything good, the boat's crew would clear it in about
five fishing seasons.
5621. It would then become their joint property?-Yes.
5622. How long does a boat generally last?-The [Page 139]
greatest length of time they are used for is 12 years; but very often
they give them up when they are 6 or 7 years old. Perhaps the boat
is not good, and they won't risk it any longer.
5623. In that case, do they generally begin a new arrangement for
the purchase of another boat?-Yes, for the purchase of a boat, if
it is their own. If it is a hired boat, then it is thrown on the curer's
hands to provide them with another.
5624. What is the usual rate for a boat-hire throughout Shetland?
-I think £2, 10s. is a pretty general hire over all for such boats.
5625. I understand you settle with your own men yearly about
December?-We commence settling about 12th November, and it
takes us a considerable time to get over the whole of our men.
5626. Has each man dealing with you a pass-book?-No, not all,
but the greater part of them have.
5627. But you wish them to have pass-books?-Yes; I should be
very glad for them all to have passbooks, if they would only keep
them regularly. When it is a careful man, his book is kept
regularly, and there is very little trouble with him in taking down
his account.
5628. I understand each fisherman employed by you has an
account in your ledger, in which each year is balanced at the
settling time?-Yes.
5629. That account on the one side contains the debt which he has
incurred for furnishings to the boat, boat-hire, and the amount of
his shop account, if he has one?-Yes; the boat-hires are generally
kept under the head of a company account in name of the master
of the boat, as for instance, Thomas Robertson & Co.
5630. Then you have two ledger accounts for your men-one for
the boat's crew, and one for the account of each individual?-Yes;
we very frequently have these accounts entered in the same ledger;
but where the men are fishing at one of our stations, such as Papa,
the company account is settled in the station ledger, which can
always be referred to.
5631. But in that case the individual man has an account in
another ledger?-He has his account in our general ledger at Voe.
5632. The boat-hire is generally charged in the company account;
that is to say, all the members of the company are liable for the
boat-hire?-Yes.
5633. Do a large proportion of the men whom you employ in
fishing have shop accounts at your store?-Yes, a large number of
them; in fact, the most of them have accounts with us more or less.
5634. That is, apart from the mere outfit which they require for
going to the fishing, they are supplied with goods for their
families, both soft goods and provisions?-Yes.
5635. Are these transactions generally carried on upon a system of
credit?-Yes, it is credit for the most part; but some men who
have money just pay down the money for what they want, and it is
not entered in our books.
5636. Are you in the habit of giving a discount when they pay
down money?-Yes, if the amount is worth discounting.
5637. Can you say what is the average amount of fisherman's
share for the take of fish in any one year?-I was making a
calculation of it this morning, and I think that, taking all the
fishermen we have employed just now, their takes of fish for the
whole year would average about £12, 5s.
5638. Are you able to say what deductions would fall to be made
from that sum in the case of an ordinary fisherman?-There would
be deducted from it specially his proportion of the boat-hire, and
the yearly payment or hire for his lines. Some of them pay a
yearly payment on their lines, while others hire them. There will
be about 22s. deducted for that, and that is the only special charge
that has to be deducted, except what he has got for his living.
5639. Are these special charges due by the individual fishermen or
by the boat's crew?-For the lines in all my boats they are due by
each individual, but the boat hire is due by them as a company.
5640. You spoke of the lines being got by the men either on hire or
by making a yearly payment?-Yes, a yearly payment equal to the
hire which they would pay if they were hiring the lines. For
instance, the pay for the hire of one of these fishing lines is 8d. a
year; but instead of taking that as hire, we credit it yearly to the
men, and so soon as it has liquidated the value of the lines they
become the fisherman's own property; whereas, if a man gets his
outfit and goes to the fishing this season, and does not feel inclined
to go another year, then he has only paid the hire, and the lines
must be returned to me.
5641. But if a man begins to make a yearly payment by way of
purchasing the lines, he is obliged to go on?-He is not obliged to
go on if he chooses to give up the fishing altogether; but even in
that case it is an advantage to them to have the lines, because they
can always make use of the old ones in some way or other.
5642. In the case of hired lines and of that sort of purchase by
instalments, where does the risk lie?-The risk lies with the
fisherman in both cases.
5643. If the hired lines are lost, he pays for them?-Yes.
5644. And if they are lost while he is buying them, he pays for
them also?-Of course; but if he is hiring a boat, and it is lost at
sea, he is not liable for that boat.
5645. But he would be liable for the lines in that case?-Yes.
5646. I don't quite see the distinction between the two cases of
hiring lines and buying them by instalments in the way you have
described. Does it not come to be the same thing to the fisherman
in the end in both cases?-No; if he continues to hire them, then,
when the lines are unfit for prosecuting the fishing any longer, he
must return them to me, and I can make something out of these old
lines-perhaps 6d. a line; whereas, if he has been buying them by
instalments, they belong to the man himself; and if the lines are of
good quality, and he has taken care of them, he may be able to use
them for a season or two after the whole payments have been
made for them. I have some fishermen who have used their lines
at the deep-sea fishing in that way for two seasons after the usual
yearly payment has completed the value of them.
5647. The deductions you have now mentioned apply to every
case, but at settlement there may be other deductions for the
amount of furnishings supplied to the men during the season?-
Yes.
5648. Is that the only other deduction which falls to be made in the
ordinary case?-Yes. If the man has been running an account, of
course that must be deducted.
5649. Are you in a position to say what the ordinary amount of a
fisherman's account at your shop will be in the course of a
season?-Perhaps the ordinary amount will be from £4 to £5.
Some of them will be a great deal more than that; whereas there
are some men fishing to me who won't have 3s. worth out of my
shop in the course of a season.
5650. The amount differs according to the individual?-Yes, and
according to his needs.
5651. Is there a large proportion of your fishermen who close the
year somewhat in your debt?-Yes, a considerable number, but
not nearly so many as there were some years ago.
5652. Has that been in consequence of a succession of good
years?-I think so, but there has been a great change in the habits
of the people. I think they are generally more careful now than
they were.
5653. Are you able to say from your own observation whether men
who are so much in your debt deal more at your shop than
others?-With some of the men who fish for me, the greatest
difficulty I have is to prevent them from dealing,-not to get them
to buy goods, but to get them not to buy them. Of course there are
black sheep in every flock, and I have men who, after receiving
considerable supplies from my shop, and when I have found it
quite unreasonable to allow them to go further, turned round upon
me and said, 'Well, if you won't give me what I want I will go to
[Page 140] some other body and fish for them.' Of course these
are exceptions.
5654. They say that to you when they are considerably in your
debt?-Yes; and when they think there is no chance of getting any
more.
5655. Then it is not an advantage to a fish merchant or to any
merchant, as has been alleged, to have a number of people in his
debt?-Certainly not. The best fishermen are those who are not in
debt. It is a very sad thing to have to settle with a man who has no
money coming to him.
5656. Can you get as many fishermen to engage with you as you
want, although they should not be in your debt?-Yes; I can get a
man to fish for me more readily who is not in my debt than one
who is in my debt. A man who is in my debt will, make all the
excuses and trouble in the world, but with a man who is not in
debt there is no trouble at all. He sees his way clearly, and it is for
the purpose of saving something for his family that he goes to the
fishing.
5657. Is it a common subject of complaint with your fishermen,
that the price of the fish is not settled till the end of the year?-
They do speak of that sometimes; and yet, since the question was
mooted in consequence of reports being circulated through the
country with regard to the investigation, which you are now
prosecuting, they are all up in arms for fear any change should be
made.
5658. Have they come to you objecting to any change being
made?-Yes, a great number of them have done so.
5659. On what grounds?-Because they think that a change could
not be made for the better. For instance, if an arrangement was
made to pay them for their fish every week, three-fourths of them
could not go to the fishing at all, because they have neither boats
nor lines, nor could they get the necessary supplies to enable them
to go. Then the price which they would receive for the fish would
necessarily be smaller. They have had experience of that at the
fishing stations where there was competition, this one trying to
barter or smuggle a few fish, and the other smuggling a few fish.
They get the very highest price for them which is given at that
time; but then at settlement, even with some of my men who have
sold a few fish, I have had to pay up the difference between the
price they received at the station and the current price which was
being paid at the end of the season.
5660. That was only in the case where a higher current price was
given at the end of the season than was paid for the fish while the
season was running on?-Yes.
5661. Have you been often asked to pay a difference of that
sort?-I do it voluntarily.
5662. Was that for fish which you did not get at all?-No, not for
what I did not get; that I had nothing to do with.
5663. But you did not get smuggled fish?-Yes, there are
smuggled fish sold to me. My boats sell smuggled fish to another
curer, and boats belonging to another curer sell fish to my factor.
5664. But why should you pay the difference to your own men
upon any fish which they have smuggled to other curers?-It is not
upon fish they have smuggled that I pay the difference, but there is
a system among my fishermen of having what is called a bucht
line. That is a line of his own, the fish caught by which are sold by
him in order to supply himself with any small article he requires
during the fishing. They settle for these fish at the fishing station;
and if the price which is given at the settlement is larger than what
they have got at the station, I pay them up the difference.
5665. Is that bucht a device for having a little cash in hand?-A
bucht is the term which they give to one of these fishing lines.
5666. But is it a device for having some special wants supplied
during the course of the season, and before the settlement comes
round?-It is just a fancy they have; because if all their fish went
one way, and they asked the money, they would get it. It is merely
a thing that has been practised among them for many years, and
the practice has been allowed to continue.
5667. Is that a practice in your business only, or is it generally
done in Shetland?-It is only done by some. There are many of
our men who do not do it, but some of them do it.
5668. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash paid in
advances to the fishermen in the course of the year and before
settlement? Do you pay a large sum in that way at your
stations?-I should fancy that over the whole of my fishings £200
would cover the whole amount that is paid in advances during the
season.
5669. Your fishings are at Voe, Papa Stour, Stenness, and the
Skerries?-Yes.
5670. At each of these places you have a factor and a shop for
supplying goods?-Yes; we must have a store.
5671. Are these stores kept open all the year round?-At Papa and
the Skerries they are: at Stenness the store is only kept during the
summer fishing season.
5672. And the shop there only supplies the fishermen with what
they need for their own personal use, and not with what they
require for their families?-Just so; but sometimes those men who
have their families in the neighbourhood get a little for them
also,-a little tea, and such as that.
5673. You say the amount of the shop account will be from £4 or
£5 on an average; so that, after making other deductions, that will
leave something like £4 or £5 payable in cash to an ordinary man
at the end of an ordinary season?-Yes; but there are a great many
of them who have a great deal more than that to get.
5674. Of course the amount differs according to the seasons, and
according to the individual; but do you think that would be a fair
average?-I should say that about £6 might be taken as an average
of the amount paid in cash.
5675. Does that apply to all your stations?-Yes, to them all.
5676. What is the number of fishermen upon your books
altogether?-I should fancy about 400.
5677. Are these all employed in the summer fishing?-Yes.
5678. Is there any reason why the whole price of a man's fish
should not be paid to him in money?-The only reason is that he
has already got part of it in goods. Of course we cannot pay for it
in goods and in cash also.
5679. But is there any reason why he should take it in goods
unless he likes?-None whatever, unless he likes. There is no
compulsion put upon any of the men.
5680. Don't you think he would be better off if he got the money,
and paid for the goods in cash as he wanted them?-It is quite
possible that he might fancy so; but I cannot see that it would
make much difference. We always deduct the 5 per cent. from the
goods the men have got, the same as if they were purchasing them
for cash.
5681. So that you make no difference between cash payments, and
paying for them in account in that way?-None in that respect.
5682. Why is it that you give that amount back in the form of a
discount, instead of charging your goods originally at the same
price?-Of course if a man buys a quarter of a pound of tea, or
half a pound of tobacco we cannot take a discount off that; but we
put the whole of the transactions together at the end of the season,
and a discount is then allowed. If he bought the whole over the
counter, he would pay the price down at once; but he has an
advantage by these small items being added together, and the
discount taken off, which he would not have if he paid for the
articles separately.
5683. So that you really give a larger discount upon your credit
dealings than, upon your cash dealings?-Yes; the fisherman has a
greater advantage by having a discount upon these small purchases
when they are all taken together, than he would have if he were
paying for them separately. The discount upon two ounces of
tobacco or a quarter pound of tea would be a mere bagatelle; but
when the whole of his purchases [Page 141] in the course of the
year are added together and the 5 per cent. taken off the whole, it
comes to something. With our fishermen, as a rule, I consider that
these accounts are perfectly good, and the same as if a man were
purchasing for cash.
5684. What do you mean by saying that they are perfectly good?-
I believe we are safe in making these advances to the men.
5685. That is because you have a security?-We have no security.
5686. Have you not the security of the fish?-Yes, we have that
security, if he catches the fish.
5687. Is it upon that principle that you fix the prices at which you
sell your shop goods?-Yes, generally. Of course, if we calculated
upon it being really a bad account, we would require to charge
larger percentage in order to cover the risk; but we would rather
get clear of a man of that kind.
5688. Do you mean that, when a man is an unsafe customer, you
put a different price on the goods which he buys?-I don't put a
different price on them; but I try to give him as little as I can,
although there are some of these men whom it is very troublesome
to put off without giving them something.,
5689. Is there a competition for employment among the men to be
taken on as fishermen for the summer season?-Yes, considerable.
5690. Are there men sufficient to man any number of boats you
wish?-Well, I might be too greedy, wish more than I could
manage; but I have found no difficulty hitherto in manning as
many boats as we could reasonably manage.
5691. You supply your men with groceries as well as soft
goods?-Yes; groceries, soft goods, and meal.
5692. In fixing the prices of these goods, both the groceries and
soft goods, do you allow it margin for profit, just the same as any
merchant would do in Lerwick, or Wick, or any other town?-I
should fancy it is much the same. Of course, groceries being an
article of daily use, we charge a less percentage on them than we
do on soft goods. Very often soft goods lie on our shelves for a
considerable time, and get damaged, and become unsaleable.
5693. But I suppose that would be the principle on which the retail
price would be fixed if you deal in only one kind of these articles,
or if you were selling them in any other place than Shetland?-Of
course; that is the principle on which business is conducted
anywhere. I think that goods, for instance soft goods, are sold by
us in retail fully as low as they are in the shops in the south; even
as cheap as they are retailed in Edinburgh. That is easily
accounted for; because they have much larger rents to pay in
Edinburgh than we have here.
5694. Do you say the same with regard to provisions?-I think
there is not much difference on provisions; only the difference for
freight and insurance. Of course, at a place like Voe, the transport
of bulky goods comes to be very expensive. For instance, at this
season of the year, we cannot get a sack of meal from Aberdeen to
my house under 5s.
5695. The meal generally is imported about the end the season?-
Yes, generally.
5696. Did you hear the evidence that was given today by some of
the witnesses about the price of meal?-Yes.
5697. Are you in a position to say whether the price of meal at Voe
is higher than at Lerwick, or about the same?-It is higher than at
Lerwick as a matter of course, because we have considerable more
expense in bringing it here. We have to bring it up to Brae by
water, then cart it across the isthmus, and bring it to my house in
boats. When the weather is bad, we have to cart it all the way.
5698. Therefore the price of meal with you is considerably
higher?-Yes; and of any bulky article which requires a
considerable deal of handling and expense of transport.
5699. What do you suppose the difference is between the price of
meal at Voe and the price at Lerwick?-I should fancy about 2s.
per boll
5700. Will the difference be that throughout the year?-I think so;
but sometimes in the spring we manage to get a vessel to bring it
in direct; and then we can sell it as cheap as they do at Lerwick.
5701. Have your men ever made any complaint to you about the
price being higher than it ought to be?-No.
5702. Is the price stated to them at the time when they get the
meal, or is it generally fixed at settling time?-They know the
price of every article when they buy it
5703. Do you calculate that the profit upon your provisions and
soft goods, or the profit upon your fish sales, is the greater?-I
cannot say.
5704. Have you the same percentage of profit upon both?-No; on
the fish sales it is only 5 per cent.
5705. Is that just a commission?-Yes.
5706. That is to say, the payment to the men for the fish, the
cost of fitting them out when you do so, and of your curing
establishments, will come up to within 5 per cent. of what you sell
them for to your buyers in the south?-Yes; and then we have to
run the risk of the payments. The fish are all sold on three months
bill. Our fishermen are all settled with this year, and I have not
touched a sixpence for any of our fish yet.
5707. Does the 5 per cent. cover that risk?-Yes. Of course, if we
discounted these bills, that would run off with 11/4 per cent. of it,
but we just wait until the bills are due.
5708. Then, if you were under the necessity of paying your
fishermen entirely in cash, and did not carry on your shop
business, would you be obliged to charge a higher profit upon your
fish, or to pay the fishermen less for the fish?-If I had no shop at
all, and merely traded in fish, I would require to deal more in them
than I do, in order to make a living out of it.
5709. But you can afford to take a smaller commission on your
fish than you would otherwise do, by reason of the fact that you
are carrying on another business at the same time?-Yes.
5710. You are making two profits, although one of them may be a
very small one?-The one profit is entirely at the option of the
fisherman. He is not obliged to buy the goods unless he chooses.
5711. Perhaps not, but he would likely require to pay that profit to
another merchant, or certainly to pay some profit, and you would
expect some of that to come to you?-Yes; every one expects
some profit. I employ a good many hands about Voe curing fish.
These are invariably settled with in cash, if they are able to do
without any supplies during the week, but they are always settled
with at the end of the week.
5712. Theirs is a weekly payment?-Yes.
5713. But they get supplies during the week?-Sometimes we are
obliged to give them something, otherwise they could not work.
5714. And that is deducted from their weekly pay?-Yes. At the
stations the curers are generally engaged at a sum for the season.
5715. In what form are the supplies given at your shop deducted
from the weekly payments at Voe?-For instance, if the girls
working at the fish have earned 5s. a week, and if they have got 2s.
worth of goods, they have only 3s. to get.,
5716. But in what way is it noted that they have got that advance
in goods?-We keep an account of it in our book.
5717. Is there a ledger account for each worker?-We have what
we term a jot ledger for these weekly accounts. We do not carry
them into our regular working books.
5718. How many people are employed in that way?-I have
known as high as sixty; they will run from thirty to sixty.
5719. Do those people ever ask you for cash in the course of the
week?-Sometimes they do but not very often. The length of time
between the pays is so very short that they don't require it, but if
they are in need of cash they get it.
5720. Do they prefer to take their advances in goods?-They
prefer to take their payment at the end of the week.
[Page 142]
5721. But when they require goods in the course the week, do you
give them to them?-Yes; goods and cash are much the same
thing to them; for if we gave them money, they would just turn
round and buy the goods. If they went anywhere else, they must
lose a day's work in going to it.
5722. I suppose that is one reason why the system of fish-curers
having stores for shop goods exists, because their shops are at such
inconvenient distances from each other?-Yes; the people would
lose so much time in travelling to other places in order to get their
goods, that we require to keep shops for them. If their time is of
any value to them at all, the fact that they have a shop on the spot
far more than compensates them for any difference they may pay
in price.
5723. But if there were no such shops as yours, would there not be
a class of dealers throughout the island who would provide the
goods that the people want?-I don't know; perhaps there might
be such.
5724. Does a fisherman not incline rather to deal with the
employer to whom he delivers his fish, than with another?-I think
so. The fishermen and their employers are generally on a friendly
footing, and the man is satisfied that the curer he is fishing to will
do as fairly to him as possible if he is a deserving man. I consider
he gets every advantage that he could naturally expect, and it is an
object with the fish-curers in every way to encourage steady
careful men.
5725. Will you give me a note of the number of men employed by
you, of the total amount of cash paid to them, and of the total
amount of their shop accounts for 1870, and also for 1867?-Yes.
I found, on looking over my books last night, that the total amount
of cash paid at the present settlement was £2015. That includes
the Faroe fishing too. With regard to the employment of curers at
the stations for a specific sum, I may mention that it would not do
to pay them weekly, because for several weeks, and perhaps
longer, if it is bad weather, these curers will have nothing to do at
all. At the home fishing stations they are paid by a fixed sum
yearly; and the reason for that is, that if we were to pay them
weekly, they would be quite pleased for two or three weeks if they
had nothing to do; but if it came a fine week, and there was a great
quantity of work, they would throw everything up and go home,
and our fishing might be left to perish.
5726. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing to a great extent?-Not
to a great extent; but I have five vessels.
5727. In that case, the arrangement with the men is somewhat
different?-Yes, quite different; the men get half the fish, and they
are paid the current price for the dry fish.
5728. You cure all the fish, and they get half the price of the dried
fish?-Yes.
5729. So that the calculation is somewhat similar?-Yes. There is
5 per cent. taken off for selling and risk before the division takes
place.
5730. When is the Faroe fishing at an end?-As rule, it is at an end
in August.
5731. When are the fish completely cured?-It is sometimes
nearly the end of September before they are cured.
5732. Is the division made then?-No; the owner of the vessel
sells all the fish, and the division is not made until the settlement.
5733. In the case of a man who engages with you for the Faroe
fishing, is it usual for an account to be opened in his name in the
same way as with the others?-Yes; we are obliged to supply him
with an outfit. The principle of that agreement is, that the men get
one-half the value of the fish after deducting curing, and the
expenses of converting the fish into cash. They are also allowed 8
lbs. of biscuit per week; the other provisions they have to furnish
for themselves.
5734. These supplies are all entered to the man's debit in your
book?-Yes.
5735. Is it usual for you to supply his family during his absence
with goods on credit in the same way?-Yes; we are very often
obliged to do that in order to keep them from starving.
5736. Is that done on a larger scale than in home fishing?-No; I
don't think it is done on such a large scale, for the greater number
of the hands going to the Faroe fishing are young men without
families.
5737. In the Faroe fishing you have not only the 5 per cent. for
selling, but you have the profit on one-half of the fish?-That is
sometimes a very small profit, for the vessels will sometimes be
£100 in debt in the course of a year.
5738. But that depends on the luck of the voyage?-Yes; we have
one-half of the fish for the vessel.
5739. You supply the vessel entirely, and the men have nothing to
supply except their fishing lines?-Yes; nothing except their
fishing lines-2 lines, or 21/2, for hauling the fish with.
5740. Are these lines supplied by you as part of the outfit?-We
have to put them on board the vessel, and then any of the men who
require them can get them. Sometimes the men have lines of their
own, and don't require to take them from us.
5741. I understand you were engaged at one time in the hosiery
trade?-Yes.
5742. You used to buy the hosiery in the same way in which it is
now bought in Lerwick?-Yes; always paid in goods, I gave that
business up in 1870.
5743. Was there any profit made upon that trade?-No; the only
profit I ever made by the hosiery was if we had any profit on the
goods that we bartered for them. We never could realize the price,
as a whole, which I had paid for the hosiery, and consequently we
were obliged to give it up. We had very great difficulty in selling
it.
5744. Did you sell your hosiery goods south?-I sent them south,
and I had really to take anything they would give us for them.
5745. You do something in that way still, do you not?-Yes,
occasionally. The principal thing we do is in purchasing goods
from other merchants for sending them south when we get an
order. Then we purchase what kinds of goods suit us.
5746. Do you buy them in Lerwick?-Yes, and in the country too.
5747. But you don't buy from the knitters yourself?-I don't buy
from them. Sometimes they will make us buy them whether we
will or not. We cannot get clear of them sometimes, but we don't
want to buy them.
5748. Are the knitters anxious to get paid in money for their
hosiery?-I don't know. Very likely they have been so long
accustomed to getting goods for them, that they never think of
asking such a thing as money.
5749. Do you think they would take a less price for hosiery if they
were paid in money?-I don't think it.
5750. I suppose they want the goods in the country, and they think
they get a profit by taking them?-Yes; for instance, if they have a
pair of socks to sell, they won't sell them under 8d., and if you
offer them 6d. in cash it is no object for them to take it. They
would rather have 8d. worth of goods. In that way they are better
off by getting the goods, because if they got 6d. in cash they would
just lay it out in buying 6d. worth of goods.
5751. Do you employ beach boys extensively?-Yes, a good
many; not at Voe, but at Papa Stour, Stenness, and Skerries.
5752. What is the usual wage for a beach boy?-The usual wage
now is from £2 to £3, 10s. for boys.
5753. What is it for women?-Women don't usually work there.
If we require to employ women on an emergency, then they are
employed at the station at so much per day. There is no regular
wage for them.
5754. Do the beach boys get accounts opened in their names at
your shop?-We are obliged to do that in order to supply them
with food. Sometimes we have to give them shoes and clothing to
cover them.
5755. Do they generally get a balance of cash at the [Page 143]
end of the year?-Yes; where they are careful, they have a
considerable balance to get. Some of them will even have more
than half their wages to get in cash.
5756. Are you tacksman of any estate or an owner of land in
Shetland?-I am not tacksman of anything but the Skerries
Islands. Mr. Bruce of Simbister is the proprietor.
5757. Are there any people living on these islands permanently all
the year round?-Yes.
5758. Are they bound to fish for you?-Yes; and they have no
wish to change.
5759. You pay rent to Mr. Bruce, and you take the risk of their
payments?-Yes.
5760. In that case their rent enters your account as deduction
against the men?-Yes. I manage Lady Nicholson's property in
Papa, more as a factor for her than as a tacksman.
5761. Are the fishermen there free to fish to anybody they
please?-Yes.
5762. But in point of fact they fish to you?-They all fish to me,
for the very simple reason that there is no other one there for them
to fish to.
5763. Do any of them cure their own fish, or try to do it?-There
is only one native crew who cure their own fish at Papa.
5764. They prefer to do so, and you make no objection?-None
whatever; and when their fish are cured, they just deliver them to
my man there, and we buy them cured at the current price for
cured fish.
5765. Do you think these men make as much of their fish as the
other men do?-They do; but they have a great deal of labour with
it. When the season is bad, it requires a great deal of attention
from the whole of these men to attend to a few fish, and to get
them dried, and perhaps it will be well on in September before
they get over with it. They also run a risk their fish being spoiled.
5766. I suppose some fish are necessarily damaged in the course of
curing?-Yes; it is a very important thing to be particular about
that. They get damaged with rain, and they get damaged with sand
and with the sea-breeze, and they require a great deal of attention.
5767. Is the rent which you pay for Skerries calculated so as to
allow you a profit upon the rents of the sub-tenants?-No; I pay
£110 of tack duty, and the gross rental from the tenants is only
£68, I virtually pay the difference just for the station-that is,
station rent for the store and premises which are put up there.
5768. Is it not also for the privilege of having these fishermen to
fish for you?-I believe I could make more of these lands if I had
them as grazing ground, without any fishermen there at all. There
is only one of the Skerries I hold now; one of them has been sold
to the Lighthouse Commissioners.
5769. If you could make more of the island as grazing ground, why
don't you turn it into that?-If I were to do so, what could I make
of the men? There are fourteen families, and if I turned them
adrift it would be a fearful thing.
5770. Is it difficult for men to get land in Shetland?-It is very
difficult now; there are so many requiring it, that almost every
place is taken up. I have boats that go from the mainland to fish at
the Skerries with the natives.
5771. Then it is useful as a station for them?-Yes.
5772. Is there anything else you wish to state with regard to the
system of carrying on business, or with reference to the evidence
that has been laid before the Commission previously?-Not so far
as I am aware.
Brae, January 10, 1872, CHARLES YOUNG, examined
5773. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness.
5774. How long have you been there?-For twenty years.
5775. Do you hold land there?-No.
5776. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. John Anderson, Hillswick.
5777. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.
5778. How far is Stenness from Hillswick?-About three miles. I
do not live at Stenness. I live in the south part of North Mavine, at
Manaster, about twelve miles from Stenness.
5779. Do you go to Stenness merely for the fishing?-Yes.
5780. Has Mr. Anderson a station there?-Yes; only in summer
and harvest.
5781. Has Mr. Adie also a station at Stenness?-Yes.
5782. How long have you fished for Mr. Anderson?-I have fished
for about seventeen years for Anderson Brothers. I fished for two
years at Ollaberry, and I fished for the time I have mentioned for
Anderson & Co.
5783. How are you paid for your fish? Do you get most of your
payment in goods or in cash at settling time?-I have got most in
cash.
5784. What is the time for settling?-The settling time
commences about 12th November, but for some years we have
generally settled from 26th to 27th November.
5785. Do you generally get your supplies during the fishing season
from Mr Anderson at Stenness?-Yes.
5786. Where is your family supplied? -I do not require much
supplies for my family, I can buy them at any shop in the
neighbourhood.
5787. Is there any shop at Manaster from which your family are
supplied?-No. The most part of my dealing has been with Mr.
Anderson, but I sometimes deal with Mr. Inkster at Brae, or any
shop I may have occasion to go to.
5788. Are your family generally supplied by Mr. Anderson at
Hillswick?-No; not as a general rule.
5789. Do you run an account with Mr. Anderson?-Yes.
5790. The two sides are balanced at the end of the year in
November, and you generally get a good part of your payment in
cash?-Yes.
5791. Do you get advances in money during the fishing season?-
Not unless I require them; but if require them, I can get them.
5792. Do you ask for them as a favour?-No.
5793. Do you want the money for some particular purpose when
you ask for it?-Yes.
5794. Do you always get it when you ask it?-Yes. I asked for £5
this year, about the beginning of the fishing, and I got it without
any difficulty.
5795. Do you also get any reasonable quantity of goods you
want?-Yes.
5796. Are the goods supplied to you at Stenness or at Hillswick?-
To a certain extent at Stenness, and for the greater part at
Hillswick.
5797. Do you go there for them?-Yes.
5798. Do you get both meal and clothing there?-Yes; I generally
get them there in the summer season for the fishing.
5799. Is the meal there of good quality and reasonable price?-
Yes; it is about the same as in other parts of the country.
5800. Would you have any advantage if you were going to another
dealer for your meal and clothing?-I don't think I could have any.
5801. You think you get your goods as good and as cheap as you
could desire?-Yes; they are as good and as cheap, there as at any
other part of the island.
5802. Or at Stenness?-Yes; it is not much clothing they have at
that place. It is only a temporary place, where they keep supplies
for the men during the fishing season.
5803. Then the way in which you deal is very much the same as
has been described by the witnesses from [Page 144]
Mossbank?-Yes; I cannot say there is much difference.
5804. You are not obliged to fish for any person in particular?-
No.
5805. You are a free man?-Yes.
5806. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the
year?-Yes.
5807. Would you rather be paid all at once in cash?-Yes.
5808. Why don't you manage to get that done?-I can hardly say;
circumstances won't allow it. Sometimes the reason for it arises
from the way in which we are placed as a crew of men. The curers
will sometimes object to give it to one man in a boat's crew,
unless all the men were alike.
5809. And all the men would not wish it in cash?-There are not
many who would not wish for it in cash.
5810. Why could not the whole of the boat's crew get it in cash?-
Because some of the men have got behind, and they cannot
manage to go on throughout the rest of the season unless they get
supplies from the curer.
5811. They are in the curer's debt at the commencement?-Yes,
or perhaps they might be free men; but they have no opportunity of
supplying themselves with anything until the end of the fishing.
5812. Therefore, when there are one or two men in boat's crew
who are in that position, the curer objects to give cash payments to
the others?-I cannot say that, because I have not seen it asked by
the rest; but we have been conforming to the old practice that has
been going on of fishing to the curers, and being paid by them at
the end of the season.
5813. Do you want any change in the system?-The only change I
would want in the system would be to know what I was working
for. I should like to see a change in that respect.
5814. Would you like to have a price fixed at the beginning of the
year?-Yes; before I commenced to fish, because according to the
system we are proceeding on now we might go to the fishing, and
at the end of the fishing season or at the end of the year when they
settle with us, the merchants could pay us if they liked with 2s. a
cwt.
5815. Do they not come under an obligation to pay you what is the
current price at the end of the season?-It is not very often that we
enter into engagements of any kind. The men who are free men
generally fish for them, and they just fish upon an understanding
that they are to be paid the country currency.
5816. But it is understood that they are to be paid the country
currency?-Yes.
5817. And you would be entitled to get the country currency in any
case?-Yes; but if the fish were going down as low as they might
do, we would still only get the currency.
5818. Do you mean that the fish are sometimes higher earlier in
the season than they are at the end?-No; what I mean is that the
price varies very much. I have seen the price 4s. 6d. a cwt. in
some years, and 8s. in other years; and if the price were to go
below 4s. 6d., we would still only be paid according to that. But if
we had a fixed price before we went to sea at all, I think that
would be better. If there had been an average price fixed at the
commencement of the season while I have been fishing, I would
have been better satisfied in my own mind, because I would have
known what I was working for. In that way the curer would have
the advantage in some years, and in other years we might have the
advantage.
5819. Do you think there would be any difficulty in getting the
fishermen to stick to their bargain, if there was an arrangement of
that kind made at the beginning of the season?-I fear there might
be some difficulty with some of them.
5820. Some of them might think that if the price were to rise, they
ought to get the full value of that rise?-I don't think any
reasonable man could expect that, if he had made a fixed bargain
to be paid so much.
5821. But you say that some of the men would make a difficulty
about an arrangement of that kind; what do you mean by that?-
The only difficulty I see would be a want of means to supply what
they require in order to fit them for the fishing; but I think the
difficulty might be got over.
5822. Do you mean that the men would get under weigh even if
there was a fixed price?-I think so.
5823. When would you have that fixed price paid?-For my own
part I would not care although we were not paid until the same
time when we are paid at present. If it were paid weekly, I don't
know how that system might work.
5824. Do you think that all the fishermen would like to have a
price fixed in the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that the
whole would like to have it, but for my own part I should like it
and I know there are others besides me.
5825. Do you think there would be no difficulty in getting credit
from the fish-curer in the same way as at present, if there was a
fixed price?-No; the time for fixing the price might be the only
thing that would be altered, and the settlement would still remain
in November. We would then have a fixed price, and would know
what we were working for.
5826. You have no objection to the system of advances?-I cannot
say that I have.
5827. Are you quite at liberty to engage with any fish-curer you
please, and to engage to fish for him through the season?-Yes.
5828. Has every fisherman the same liberty?-Every one, so far as
I know, in this place.
5829. Even although he is in debt to the fish-curer?-No; in that
case the fish-curer expects him to fish for him until his debt is
paid. That is generally looked for, and in some instances I know
that they had to agree to do it.
5830. Do you know that they wished to fish for another curer,
but that they were obliged to fish to the man to whom they were
in debt?-They did not wish to fish to another curer, but that
fish-curer wished them to sign an agreement to fish to him for
the rising season.
5831. Did they agree to do that?-Yes. They did not say anything
about leaving the fish-curer, but only he wished them to agree.
5832. At what time of the year was that?-I have seen it done in
the month of November, and also in December.
5833. Did the fish-curer ask them to do that at a time when they
were wanting further advances of goods or money?-Yes,
advances of money.
5834. And it was in order that he might have some security for
these advances that he asked them to sign the agreement?-Yes.
5835. Is that a common thing?-I cannot say it is a common thing
in my experience, but I have known it done in two or three
different cases.
5836. Where was that?-At Hillswick.
5837. Have you known it done anywhere else?-No.
5838. Who were the men with whom it was done?-One man who
told me twice over about it was Hugh Phillip; it happened with
him in two different years.
5839. Has it happened with anybody else to your knowledge?-
No.
5840. Was it not quite fair that a man should be expected to work
for the curer until his debt was paid?-Yes.
5841. How does a man get into such an amount of debt as that?
Is it from dealing with the shop?-I cannot say that the shop
accounts are the cause of it, but it may arise from the
circumstances of his family. The fishing here is the only thing a
man has to depend upon, and sometimes, when it turns out bad
year, he perhaps has taken a greater amount of supply from the
shop for his family than usual.
5842. Was Phillip's account for shop goods?-It was for an
advance of rent.
5843. That was what he was taking the money for but was he in
debt before for shop goods?-Yes.
[Page 145]
Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM GREEN, examined.
5844. You live at Sullem?-Yes.
5845. Are you a boat-skipper?-Yes.
5846. Where do you fish?-At Stenness.
5847. To whom do you deliver your fish?-To Mr. Adie.
5848. Have you done that long?-For six years.
5849. Do you settle with him at the end of the season?-Yes.
5850. Did you hear Mr Adie's evidence to-day?-I did.
5851. Did it give a fair account of the way in which the settlement
is made?-Yes.
5852. Are you one of the men who generally have a balance in
your favour at the end of the year?-Yes.
5853. Would it be an advantage to you to have a shorter
settlement?-I don't think so.
5854. Why?-Because we fish during the year and at the year's
end we settle with him.
5855. Are you quite content with the settlement as it is?-For my
part I am.
5856. Do you deal with Mr. Adie's store at Voe to any great
extent?-Yes.
5857. Do you take your goods from Voe to Sullem?-Yes.
5858. Is not that a long way to carry them?-It is.
5859. Could you not get them as good nearer home?-We could
get them much the same but not better. If I want goods, Mr. Adie
will either send them to me, or I may sometimes get the chance of
a boat coming my way.
5860. How far is it from Sullem to Voe?-Perhaps from eight to
nine miles.
5861. Are there shops nearer to you than that?-Yes; there is a
shop at Brae, and there is also a shop to the northward.
5862. Can you get goods as cheap at these shops as at Mr.
Adie's?-Much the same.
5863. Do you deal as much at these shops as at Mr. Adie's?-No; I
deal more with Mr. Adie than with them.
5864. Is that because you have an account with Mr. Adie?-Yes.
5865. Do you know whether there is any difference between the
prices in the shop at Voe and at other places?-I see no great
difference. I have tried other places; and if there was any
difference at all, it would be that I could get an article at Mr.
Adie's perhaps a little cheaper than at other places.
5866. Then the only disadvantage you have in dealing at Voe is the
distance?-Yes.
5867. And the only advantage you have is that you have an open
account there?-Yes.
5868. Is that the only reason why you deal there-The boat we fish
in belongs to Mr. Adie; we hire it from him.
5869. Is that any reason for dealing at Voe?-No but we fish to
Mr. Adie, and we get goods from him as we require them, and at
the year's end we make a settlement.
5870. There is a convenience in making a settlement at the end
of the time, because you have not to pay for the goods in the
meantime?-Yes.
5871. But if you got your cash every month or every six weeks, as
you wanted it, would that not save you the trouble of going to Voe
for your goods?-It might.
5872. Would you not consider that a great advantage?-No, not a
great advantage.
5873. Do you think it is handier to make a settlement once a year
and go to Voe for your goods?-Yes.
5874. Are you obliged in any way to go there unless you please to
do so?-No, we are not obliged.
5875. How much do you generally get in cash at the year's end?-
That varies according to the fishing. I have seen us get £8 or £9
after deducting our accounts.
5876. Do you require that money to pay your rent and other things
that you want to buy?-Yes.
Brae, January 10, 1872, WILLIAM POLE, examined.
5877. You are managing partner at Mossbank of the firm of Pole,
Hoseason & Co, merchants and fish-curers?-Yes.
5878. You have other places in Shetland?-Yes. We have one in
North Yell, at Greenbank; we have also two fishing stations-one
at Feideland, and the other at Gloup. Feideland is at the extreme
end of Northmavine, and Gloup is at the farthest north part of Yell.
5879. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Adie?-Yes.
5880. Is the way in which you carry on your business at Mossbank
substantially the same?-Yes, substantially the same. One
difference is that we don't give discount on the fishermen's
accounts in the way Mr. Adie seems to do.
5881. Is there any other difference that occurs to you?-The
fishermen pay for their lines in some cases by three yearly
instalments, and in the event of fisherman leaving us we are not
bound to take back the lines from him, as Mr. Adie said. But that
is quite a trifling difference.
5882. What proportion of dried fish do you estimate to be
produced from the green fish, in settling with your men?-It takes
21/4 cwt. of green fish to make 1 cwt. of dry in the case of ling; and
in the case of tusk it takes more.
5883. Is that a universal calculation in Shetland?-In some years it
is a little less, and in some years a little more.
5884. Is that not a fixed standard? Is there a fresh calculation
made every year as to the quantity of dried fish produced out of so
much green?-There can be if it is wished.
5885. Do you not always go upon the footing that 21/4 cwt. of green
fish make 1 cwt. of dry?-No; we can make a calculation in order
to get at the quantity of green fish which it takes to make 1 cwt. of
dry.
5886. On what principle do you act in settling with the
fishermen?-In settling with them we pay them the current price
paid in the country.
5887. But you calculate that current price on a certain principle
with regard to the quantity of dry fish produced out of green?-
Yes.
5888. In settling with them, do you always go upon the footing that
21/4 cwt. of green make 1 cwt. of dry, or does that enter into the
settlement with the fishermen at all?-Of course that enters into
the calculation; but then we can know exactly what quantity of
green fish it takes to make 1 cwt. of dry. It is generally about 21/4
cwt. It may be a few pounds less some years, but it is very seldom
more than 21/4 cwt. We always reckon upon it taking 21/4 cwt.
green of ling to make 1 cwt. of dry; but then the price which we
pay to the fishermen depends altogether upon the price which we
get from the fish dry, and we pay them the current price paid in the
country.
5889. How is that current price ascertained? Is it by the sales
of each fish-curer, or by the sales of all the firms in Shetland?-
Fish-curers have generally to pay the same price, whether they get
the same price or not; but there is not often any great difference
between the price got by one curer and that got by another. For
instance, we reckon, one 21/4 cwt. green fish to 1 cwt. dry: that, at
8s. a cwt., comes to 18s., and we pay the fishermen for the cwt.
of dry fish. Then the actual cost of curing is reckoned at about
2s. 6d. per cwt. dry. That does not include waste of curing utensils
and management; so that the actual cost of curing the fish would
be nearly £3 a ton, or 3s. a cwt.
5890. You may sell these fish for about 23s.?-Yes; but there is
more to be taken into the calculation than that. We get £6 from
each boat for the hire of the boat and the lines; but that sum cannot
cover the cost to us, and therefore we have a loss upon the boat
and lines, which has to come off the fish also.
5891. Is that loss universal?-I think it is, because there is no more
paid for the boats now than was paid twenty years ago, when a
boat wore half as long again [Page 146] as it does now, and when
lines that run for two or three seasons would run for five or six
seasons.
5892. Is that difference caused by deterioration in the quality of
the articles?-No; it is caused by the boats going further out to the
fishing. They require larger boats and larger sails, and then the
lines are getting more used and more worn.
5893. I was asking you how the current price is ascertained at the
end of the year?-It is just ascertained in the same way as the
current price of any other commodity in any other place would be
ascertained.
5894. Do you correspond with other fish-curers in order to find out
the price?-Yes.
5895. Is there any meeting of fish-curers held at Lerwick or
elsewhere for the purpose of fixing the price?-Not that I am
aware of; not in the case of the haaf fishing.
5896. Is there any in the case of the Faroe fishing?-I am not sure
about that; but I never attended one.
5897. Have you been asked to attend one?-No.
5898. Is there any rule with regard to the fixing of price current in
the Faroe fishing? Do not the fishermen there get one-half the
proceeds of the fishing, whatever the price may be, without
reference to a price current?-It is always expected that the crew
of one vessel will get the same as the crew of another.
5899. Do you mean the same as the crew of another employed by
the same merchant?-No; by different merchants. That is always
expected, and there is seldom any difference, although it does
happen occasionally.
5900. Therefore you have heard of a meeting for the purpose of
fixing a price current for the Faroe fishing?-I heard of such a
thing taking place once, but not oftener; and I think it was only
attended by three or four individuals. I think that was a year or
two ago, but I am not certain about the time. Indeed, I am not
certain about the thing; it only occurs to me that I heard about it.
5901. But the current price for the ordinary ling fishing can be
easily enough ascertained, because you meet one another, and in
your correspondence you may mention it incidentally?-Yes.
5902. Does it sometimes happen that the fishermen to one
firm complain that they have not got so large price as their
neighbours?-That has happened in my experience once or twice.
5903. Does that account in any degree for the desire which some
fishermen seem to have for a price to be fixed before the season
begins?-I don't think so.
5904. Do you think fishermen would be better off if a price were
so fixed?-I do not.
5905. Why?-Because I think, under the present system, they are
getting the very utmost the fish are worth to any merchant.
5906. But would it not be better for the fishermen? Would they
not work as well, or better, if they knew the price they were to
get?-I am not very sure about that; I cannot see in what respect
they could possibly be better than they are.
5907. In your curing establishment do you employ beach boys at a
fixed rate per annum?-Yes.
5908. Do they open an account in your shop-books in the same
way as a fisherman who is engaged to fish to you for the season?-
Yes, in much the same way. We engage them about this time of
the year, and they require a few trifles about this time. Then,
before they commence work on the beach, they require some
clothing-perhaps some oilskins and boots or shoes. Then they
require meal to keep them going through the season, and they are
settled with at the end.
5909. What is the amount of the balance generally paid to a beach
boy at settlement time in cash?-From 10s. to 30s.
5910. Out of wages amounting to from £2 to £3, 10s.?-Yes; we
very seldom pay a boy more than £3.
5911. Have you any difficulty in getting beach boys?-We do find
a considerable difficulty sometimes.
5912. Is the supply not equal to the demand?-Not in our case. For
the past year for instance, it has not.
5913. How does that happen? Are their wages too low, or have
they any other employment nowadays?-Nowadays the boys are
being employed at the fishing sooner than they used to be.
5914. Are there many people employed in your curing
establishment as day workers?-Yes; they are chiefly women,
but there are a few boys and a few old people.
5915. How are they paid?-By the day.
5916. When are they paid?-Whenever they wish
5917. Is there a weekly pay-day with them?-There may be, if
they wish; but sometimes, for their convenience, we do not settle
weekly. The settlement may run for three, four, five, or six weeks,
or perhaps whole season.
5918. How many days will these women be employed in the
course of the season? Is it anything like constant employment?-
Yes; at least during the summer. From the end of May till the end
of September we will employ on an average about twenty women
daily at Mossbank, and about ten at Greenbank.
5919. Do these women run an account at your shop for goods?-
Yes.
5920. Is a considerable amount of their wages paid to them in
goods?-Yes, a considerable part.
5921. Is there any understanding or rule that they shall take part of
their wages in goods?-There is no such understanding.
5922. They are quite at liberty with regard to that-Yes.
5923. Will they get cash if they ask for it?-Yes, if they have it to
get; but it is a convenience for them to get their goods from our
shop. It saves them the trouble of going a greater distance for
them.
5924. Is there no other shop there?-Not close by. The nearest
shop is about a mile off, I think.
5925. Is there any expectation or understanding, when these
women are engaged, that they shall open an account and take their
wages, or the greater part of them, in goods at your shop?-No,
there is no understanding; but we have every reason to believe that
they will come to us, because they cannot manage otherwise.
5926. Are the goods which they take generally provisions or soft
goods?-Chiefly provisions, but some soft goods too.
5927. In engaging these women, do you give any preference to
those who deal at your shop?-No; but they mostly all deal there.
5928. Has each of them a ledger account in her own name with
you?-Yes.
5929. Have they generally pass-books, or do they prefer to do
without them?-They can get a passbook if they like, but they
seldom do it.
5930. Are you a landed proprietor?-I am to small extent.
5931. Are any members of your firm owners of land?-No; not
owners.
5932. Or tacksmen?-I am a tacksman of some; and we, as a firm,
are factors for one or two small properties.
5933. Are any other members of the firm tacksmen or proprietors
of land?-Not tacksmen.
5934. Or proprietors?-No. Mr. Hoseason, I think, is proprietor of
one-fifth part of a rental of £3.
5935. On the land which you hold as owner or tacksman, are there
many of the tenants who are fishermen and are employed by your
firm?-Yes, there are a great many fishermen.
5936. Are they under any obligation to fish for you, and not for
another?-Yes; we expect them fish for us in preference.
5937. That is part of the contract which they enter into for their
ground?-Yes; but it is also understood that we are to give them
the current price of the country.
5938. What are the properties of which you are tacksman?-
Aywick, in East Yell.
5939. What is the number of fishermen on that property?-There
are only four or five of them who fish to us. There are a good
many others, but they do not [Page 147] fish to us. Some of these
men go to the whale fishing, and we are not interested in it.
5940. They are not bound to fish for you if they go to the whale
fishing or to the Faroe fishing?-No; not unless we require them.
If we require them, they will give us the preference willingly.
5941. Is it part of the arrangement or understanding, that you are
entitled to prevent them from going to the whale fishing or to the
Faroe fishing if you please?-No; they are at perfect liberty to go
to the whale fishing if they prefer it.
5942. But if they engage in the home fishing they are bound to fish
to you?-Yes, if we wish it.
5943. What other properties are held in tack by you?-Sandwick,
in North Yell.
5944. How many men are upon it?-There are seven or eight
families, the heads of which are all fishermen, and they fish to us.
There is another small property called Sellafirth, in North Yell, on
which I think there are four or five men. We are also factors for
George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell.
5945. Are the men there bound to fish to you?-They all fish to us.
They are not bound to do so; only, it is understood that they are to
fish to us.
5946. How many of them may there be?-I think six or seven.
These are all the properties of which we are tacksmen.
5947. Of what properties are you proprietor?-I am proprietor of
small place in Delting, at Mossbank.
5948. Are there many fishermen on it?-No; only three or four.
5949. Are they also expected to fish for you?-No; there is only
one of them, I think, who fishes for us.
5950. Are those fishermen in North Yell who fish for you, and
who live on the land you have mentioned, in the habit of dealing at
your shop at Gloup?-Yes; to a small extent.
5951. Are your books kept there?-No; Greenbank is the principal
place where they are kept. Gloup is fishing station in connection
with Greenbank.
5952. The shop accounts at Greenbank are balanced in the same
way against the price of the fish?-Yes.
5953. Perhaps you will make up a similar statement to that which
Mr. Adie has promised with regard to the amount of the shop
accounts and the indebtedness of the men?-Yes. The systems
pursued at Mossbank and Greenbank are a little different. At
Greenbank we hire both boat and lines to the men; while at
Mossbank the men almost all buy their lines, and hire the boat
only.
5954. How many accounts do you keep at both places?-I think
about 120 or 130 altogether, for the ling fishing.
5955. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, to a small
extent.
5956. Your dealing with regard to it is similar to what Mr. Adie
has described?-Yes, quite the same.
5957. The men who go to that fishing deal at your shop in the
same way as those who go to the home fishing?-Yes.
5958. Do they generally incur as large a shop account as the men
who engage in the home fishing?-Not generally.
5959. Is that because they are young men?-Yes.
5960. But those who have families are in pretty much the same
condition as the home fishers?-Yes; there is not any material
difference as to the amount of their shop accounts.
5961. Is there anything you would like to add to what Mr. Adie has
said?-No; I think everything I have to say has been stated
already.
5962. You are not engaged in the hosiery business?-Only to a
very small extent; we do not turn over £100 of hosiery in a year.
There is one thing I should like to say about the difference in the
price of our meal and the price of meal at Lerwick. I have heard it
said that we average 8s. or 10s. higher than the price there. I may
explain, in the first place, that there was a mistake with regard to
the actual amount of difference; but at that very time the witness
spoke of there was a considerable difference caused by a sudden
rise in the price of meal in the market. At that time the meal rose
several shillings on the sack. Parties who had their meal in before
the rise could sell it without any increase of the price, if they
thought fit; but we happened to bring in meal the very week the
rise came on, so that we had to sell it at an advanced price.
5963. What was it?-I don't recollect exactly, but recollect that it
was pretty considerable. The usual difference between the price of
our meal and the price of meal in Lerwick is from 1s. 6d. to 2s. per
boll
5964. Was the difference as much as 5s.?-No, it was not so much
as that; but, from the cause I have mentioned, it may have been
considerable. I made an arrangement with a party in Lerwick this
year to send us weekly a price current of the meal in Lerwick,
because sometimes our people do complain that they are charged
more than they could get it for at Lerwick, and I wish to know how
we really act in that way. I should be glad to send that price
current for your inspection.
5965. Do you wish the prices in it to be compared with the prices
at your own shop?-Yes.
5966. How are the prices at your shop to be ascertained?-Our
books can show them.
5967. Are all the sales of meal entered in your books at the time
they take place?-Not all; but when meal is given on credit, the
price is entered in the ledger account opposite the name of the
party.
5968. You have not got your books here?-No. I was not cited to
attend to-day; but I wished to be examined, and I came forward.
5969. In what way do you arrange your ledger? Have you an
account in it for each boat's crew?-Yes.
5970. Is there also a ledger account for each individual?-Yes.
5971. In that ledger account do you enter on the one side all his
outfit and all the goods supplied to his family or to himself out of
your shop, while on the other side are entered the proceeds of his
fishing, and everything else that may be due to him?-Yes.
5972. In the case of the properties of which you are tacksman or
proprietor, the rent, I presume, goes into the debit side of the
man's account?-Yes.
5973. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.
Brae, January 10, 1872, Rev. DUNCAN MILLER, examined.
5974. You are a clergyman of the United Presbyterian Church at
Mossbank?-I am.
5975. You have been there for a number of years?-Yes; this is
my fourteenth year.
5976. You are well acquainted with many of the fishermen and
with their families?-Yes.
5977. You are aware of the system which exists, of the payments
for the fishermen's catch being settled at long intervals, and of
accounts being run for shop goods with the merchants who buy
their fish?-Yes. I think it is necessary to make a distinction with
regard to the long accounts, because what I suppose is called the
winter fishing is paid for immediately on the fish being landed.
5978. These are the small fish taken in the winter time?-Yes.
5979. But for the summer fishing there are these long settlements I
refer to?-Yes.
5980. Have you formed any opinion as to the effects of that system
upon the habits and character of the people?-I have.
5981. What conclusion have you arrived at on that matter?-I have
arrived at the conclusion that these effects are very injurious. I
think the men are brought to depend too much upon the shop and
too much upon [Page 148] the merchant, and that in consequence
they rely too little upon themselves. One result of the system
therefore is, that there is a want of prudence amongst the men
generally. I think the pass-book system affords a fatal facility for
men getting into debt, and that many rush into it in that way who
think very little of the debt they incur. Besides, I think the present
system fosters, and has a natural tendency to produce a deceitful
character in the people. For example, they are bound by their
agreement to deliver their fish to the factor of the merchant for
whom they fish, and the result is pretty much as has been stated in
the examinations to-day, that a good many smuggle away their
fish. They think the men who purchase them-I believe they are
called yaggers-give them, a higher price, in many cases, than
they would get from their employers, and therefore they dispose of
fish which really belong to the proprietor of their boats; and all
that is done in an underhand way.
5982. Have you any knowledge about these yaggers or factors who
come about the country purchasing fish?-I have no knowledge of
them except from the fishermen's own statements.
5983. Do you understand them to be strangers travelling about the
country?-I understand them to be men-many of them, at
least,- who have boats of their own. They have perhaps a single
boat upon a station, and that gives them a right to be upon that
station; and then they can buy as many fish as they please from the
men belonging to other boats and other proprietors.
5984. Are they men who cure for themselves?-Yes; they cure
for themselves to a small extent, and increase their means by
purchasing from other boats.
5985. Do they occasionally reside in Shetland?-Yes.
5986. Are they fishermen themselves?-Yes; they are what are
called small merchants. Possibly they are not able to furnish out a
large fleet of boats, but they get one; and that one is little better
than an excuse for giving them a right to be there, and to make
purchases.
5987. Is the opinion you have arrived at with regard to the habits
of improvidence that prevail among the fishermen the result
of your own experience of particular cases.?-It is the result of
general impressions, from a comparison of a multitude of
individual cases that have come under my notice.
5988. Do the fishermen or their families with whom you come into
contact, complain or make you aware that they run into debt to the
shop to a larger extent than they ought to do?-Yes; many of them
do.
5989. Do you find, as a rule, that the ordinary fisherman is in debt
to his shop more than he is fairly able to pay at the end of his
fishing season?-I think in my own neighbourhood that is
probably the case, but of course Mr. Pole is more able to speak to
that than I am. I don't know the state of their books, but I have a
general impression that that is often the case. I think the majority
of the fishermen round Mossbank are deeper in debt than they can
hope to pay in one year.
5990. Would your opinion on that point be altered by discovering
from the books, or from the fishermen themselves, that a
considerable sum was paid to them annually in cash at
settlement?-I cannot say for the present how they stand, but I
have known when there was hardly a fisherman who was not in
debt.
5991. Was that after a bad year?-No; it was for a succession of
years. I remember about ten years ago of a very large home
fishing in the way of sillock taking, when a couple of men in a
boat were realizing upwards of £2 in a night. At that time a great
many of them got themselves out of debt who were perhaps about
£20, or from £20 to £30, involved, and I presume they have not
been so much in debt since. I cannot say exactly how long that
was ago but I think it was perhaps eight or ten years.
5992. You spoke of the men being too much dependent upon the
fish-curer under the present system: would you explain, in what
way that dependence is evidenced?-It is evidenced in a variety of
ways. There is one way in which it is pretty evident, viz. that they
never think of making any provision for the future. They know
when they go to the work, that if their character is such that they
can be expected to pay, or if they have property of such an amount
as will pay their debt, they can get goods; and it is a kind of
maxim, 'Well, there is plenty of pens and ink, and they can mark
that down.' I have known that answer returned by men when they
were accused of running too far into debt.
5993. Does that indicate a want of self-dependence?-Yes; a want
of self-dependence, and too great a dependence upon the shop.
5994. It does not prove that they are under the control of the
shopkeeper?-They are under his control.
5995. A man who is deeply in debt to a shopkeeper is of course
under the control of his creditor to, certain extent; but in what way
does that operate against the fishermen?-I think they become
dispirited. They never think of paying their debt, and it paralyzes
their energies.
5996. Do you think a fisherman who is in debt in that way is
induced to engage for the season with the fish-curer on
disadvantageous terms, or that he is induced to continue his
dealings at the merchant's shop, when he might do better for
himself otherwise?-Yes, I think that when he forms an
engagement in that way his energies are paralyzed in prosecuting
his calling, and that he will not fish with the same energy as if he
were free men. He knows that whatever amount he may earn at
the fishing, still his debt will hang about his neck. He will not be
able to pay it. But I am not quite sure that I apprehend your
question. I am speaking rather of the way in which the fact of a
man being in debt paralyzes his energies.
5997. I was rather anxious to see how the fact of him being in debt
operated to put him under the control of a fish-merchant so as to
induce him to make a worse bargain than he would otherwise do,
or to continue dealing at the merchant's shop, and to get his
payment in goods, while he might be doing better with ready
money?-The way in which I would understand the system
operates injuriously in that case is, that if man is in debt to a
merchant, the merchant, if he wishes the man to fish, has no more
to do than to say to him, 'I will roup you off: you will be without
the possibility of holding land, and your cows will be taken. You
will get no manure; you cannot cultivate your land profitably
without it, and you will just have to begin the world again a new
man.' Now a man with a family, and probably a pretty large
family, cannot afford to do that.
5998. Is there a feeling among the fishermen that they are in any
way under an obligation, either a tacit understanding or an actual
obligation-to deal at the fish-curer's shop for their goods?-
There is a tacit understanding, at least, that they must do that; but I
believe that is induced by the circumstance, that for large portion
of the year their money is in the merchants' hands, and that again
affords the kind of facility for running into debt which I have
spoken of.
5999. Do you think that makes them incur larger debts than they
otherwise would do?-I think so.
6000. Can you suggest any remedy for this state of things?-The
remedy I would suggest is this: that the payments be as prompt as
possible, and that they be cash payments. I am quite ready to state
how I think the cash payments would operate. At present the
fishermen's money is all in the merchants' hands; but he is
requiring goods in the meantime, and he has no money to procure
them with, and therefore he goes to the merchant and procures
his goods. The merchant is under no constraint,-he can put his
own price on the articles which he sells; and of course, where
there is a credit system like the present, there are a large number of
defaulters. These defaulters do not pay their own debts; but the
merchant must live notwithstanding, and therefore the honest men
have to pay for the defaulters. The merchant could not carry on
his business unless [Page 149] that were done. He must have his
losses covered; and system of that sort tells very heavily upon the
public, because the merchant must charge a large margin of profit.
Now I think the ready-money system would be more favourable
for both parties,-because, suppose I were a merchant and dealing
in ready money, I might turn over my capital three times a year,
and I might have a profit every time, or three several profits; but if
my money is lying out in debts, then it is perfectly clear that I must
have as large a profit upon one turnover of my capital as under the
other system, I would have upon the three, only I might have a
little more trouble in turning it over three times instead of once.
That is the reason why I think it would be beneficial to the
merchant. On the other hand, I think it would be beneficial to the
fishermen, because if the merchant turns over his capital three
times, and has a profit on each time, then the profit which he could
afford to charge would be less, and the men would get their goods
cheaper.
6001. Are you in a position to state, as a matter of opinion, from
your own experience, that the prices charged at the shops of these
merchants are higher than they are at others where that system
does not prevail?-I am not personally cognisant of that. I have
bought some things at the shops here, and I thought they were
charged higher; but I get my goods from Edinburgh-half a year's
provisions at a time-so that I cannot testify from personal
experience as to the difference in that respect.
6002. Is it not a very common thing in Shetland for families to get
their supplies from Edinburgh?-I don't think it is general.
6003. I don't mean the families of fishermen; but is it not a
common thing for people of a higher class to get their supplies
from the south?-Yes, from Edinburgh or Aberdeen; but in my
own case there is reason for sending to Edinburgh, over and above
any difference in price. There are many articles I require which
are not to be had here, and I have to send south before I can get
such articles as are suitable for me.
6004. Have you anything to say with regard to the system pursued
in the hosiery business here?-I don't think it is conducted with
that amount of discrimination which it ought to be conducted with.
In my neighbourhood there is very little done in hosiery; but the
hosiery goods are just like a penny piece,-you know what they
are; it does not matter whether the article is good or bad,-there is
just a fixed price for it. That being the case, people don't put
themselves to much trouble in order to procure a good article.
6005. Do you think the women would be better off if they were to
get payment for their goods in cash?-I think so. I think it would
be beneficial to have transactions in cash in hosiery as well as in
everything else.
6006. Do you know any cases of women who have been making
hosiery, and who have been in distress for want of money although
they were able to get goods for their hosiery?-I know that they
prefer money. I cannot say about their having been in distress.
Many persons have come to my wife and have brought hosiery
goods because they would get money from her for them. They
often require money for purposes that goods will not answer, and
in such cases they frequently come to Mrs. Miller and endeavour
to get her to buy them.
6007. Is it a common thing in Shetland, that the women would
rather go to a private party and get money for their goods than take
them to a merchant?-Yes; there are a great many purposes for
which money is required. Suppose a parent wished to pay his
child's school fees, or anything of that sort, of course cotton goods
would not pay for that; only the money would do. But the hosiery
is a very unimportant branch of business in our neighbourhood.
<Adjourned>
Hillswick, Northmaven: Thursday, January 11, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
WILLIAM BLANCE, examined.
6008. You are a fisherman at Ollaberry?-I am.
6009. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.
6010. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Anderson of Hillswick.
6011. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Adie. I have fished for
him in the summer season for the last six years.
6012. Are you at perfect liberty to fish for any person you like?-I
have had that liberty since I came to Ollaberry.
6013. Have you not always had it?-Before that time I was south.
It is only within the last six years I have been going to the fishing.
6014. Are the people at Ollaberry at liberty to fish for any person
they like?-I don't know whether I can answer that question.
6015. Why?-Because I should like to speak only of my own
experience. I have not been bound myself, and another man might
tell me a true statement, or he might tell me a false statement.
6016. Then your own experience is that a man is free?-I have
been free for the last six years while I have been at the Faroe
fishing. During that time I have had my freedom
6017. Was it because you went to the Faroe fishing that you had
your freedom?-I could not go to the ling-fishing.
6018. Why?-For certain reasons of my own. My own bodily
ability was one.
6019. Does it require a stronger man to go to the ling-fishing than
to the Faroe fishing?-It requires healthy people, I suppose.
6020. Are healthy people required more in the ling fishing than in
the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
6021. Do you know whether your neighbours at Ollaberry are at
liberty to fish to any person they please in the ling fishing?-They
are supposed to fish for their landlord.
6022. Do you understand that that is a part of the bargain under
which they hold their ground?-I don't know; but I believe it is,
from hearsay.
6023. Were you told so yourself when you took your ground?-My
landlord told me he wished my fish, and I told him I could not give
them to him.
6024. And you went to the Faroe fishing instead?-Yes.
6025. Do you consider that if you went to the home fishing you
would be at liberty to engage with any fish-merchant who offered
you a good wage?-[No answer.]
6026. Why do you hesitate to answer that question? You must
have some idea about it?-I would not consider myself at liberty
until I inquired at my land-master.
6027. Is that the way with the other fishermen at Ollaberry too:
have they told you that that is the obligation under which they
lie?-They might have told me, but I forget.
6028. Do you believe that it is the obligation under which they
lie?- If you hesitate to answer that question, I must ask you the
reason why you hesitate so [Page 150] much?-Well, I believe it is
the understanding that they must fish to the master.
6029. When did you receive your citation to come here?-On 9th
January.
6030. Have you spoken to any one on the subject since?-Yes.
6031. To whom?-I could not read the writing, and I asked a man
to read it for me.
6032. Who was that man?-Mr. William Irvine.
6033. Is he Mr. Anderson's shopkeeper at Ollaberry?-Yes.
6034. Did you go to the shop for the purpose of asking him to read
it to you?-I had other errands besides that.
6035. But you were at the shop, and you asked him?-Yes.
6036. Did he read it to you?-Yes.
6037. Did you say anything to him about it?-I told him I did not
understand it, and I would like if he would explain it.
6038. Did he explain it?-Yes.
6039. What did he tell you about it?-He said I need not be afraid
to go, and that I should tell the truth.
6040. Was that all that passed?-I don't remember anything else.
6041. Had you much conversation on the subject?-Oh no.
6042. Did he tell you what you would be asked about?-The
special thing he told me I would be asked about would be what
had taken place between me and himself.
6043. What did he tell you about that?-He told me to take
any books with me, as I was requested to take pass-books or
documents.
6044. Did he tell you that the principal thing you would be asked
about would be your dealings with the man you were fishing to?-
Yes.
6045. That is Mr Adie?-Yes.
6046. Did he tell you you would be asked anything about your
dealings with your landlord?-No; he told me nothing about that.
I asked him if there was any use taking my land receipt, and he
said he did not think there was. That was all that passed about it.
6047. Was that all that passed between you about anything?-All
that I remember.
6048. I am asking you these questions, only because you hesitated
so much in some of your answers. You said the people at
Ollaberry were under an obligation to fish for their landlord?-
As I supposed.
6049. In point of fact, do all the men there who go to the home
fishing fish for Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say whether all of them
do it.
6050. Do you know whether most of them do it?-I cannot tell.
6051. Are you acquainted with all the people in Ollaberry?-No; I
have only been four years there. I am a stranger on that side, so
that I don't know many of the people.
6052. Do you know most of the people within a mile or two of
you?-I don't think I do. I could not mention them by name.
6053. But you have spoken to most of them?-I think I have.
6054. Do they all fish for Mr. Anderson in the home fishing?-[No
answer.]
6055. Do you know, or do you not? If you do not know, say so?-
I believe they do; but I don't know.
6056. Have you ever known any man who wished to engage to
another fish-curer, or to cure his own fish, or sell his fish as he
pleased, during the season in Ollaberry?-No; there are none of
the men who do that.
6057. Do you keep a shop account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-My
dealings are there, for the most part.
6058. Is there any shop of Mr. Adie's nearer to your house than
Voe?-I cannot say.
6059. How far is it to Voe from your house?-I have heard it
called thirteen miles; but I don't know.
6060. Are you married?-Yes.
6061. Have you a family?-Yes.
6062. Where do you buy your provisions?-I buy provisions in
Voe, or in any other shop, just as suits my convenience.
6063. Do you sometimes buy them at the Ollaberry shop?-
Sometimes.
6064. Anywhere else besides Voe?-Yes, I buy sometimes at
other places. I have bought something at Mr. Anderson's shop at
Hillswick.
6065. Anywhere else?-Yes, I have had some things elsewhere
too.
6066. Where?-At Usiness, at Mr. Gilbert Nicholson's.
6067. Has he a shop of his own there?-Yes; shop is his own, so
far as I know.
6068. But you get most of your provisions at Voe, and you keep an
account in Mr. Adie's books all the year round, which is settled
about the end of the year?-Yes.
6069. Is the settlement always before the New Year, or is it
sometimes later?-Sometimes it is later, but it is generally
before.
6070. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. [Produces it.]
6071. Have you generally a balance of cash to get at the end of the
year from Mr. Adie?-No.
6072. Are you generally in his debt to some extent at the end of the
year?-Yes.
6073. How much were you in debt last settlement?-It was for
something over £7.
6074. Have you always been in his debt?-Not always.
6075. How long is it since you had a balance to get?-I am not
sure, but I think it is four years ago.
6076. I see from your pass-book that you have got a number of
sums of cash paid to you. There are 16s., 8s., 2s. 6d. twice, 9d.,
1s. 2d., and 3s. in cash, between December 23, 1870, and
November 27, 1871: did you always get these advances of cash to
account of the fishing that was going on during this season?-I
always got the cash when I asked it.
6077. Did you get these advances to account of the fishing that
was going on last season?-I was at the fishing last year.
6078. And you were delivering fish to Mr. Adie at the time you got
that cash?-Yes.
6079. You were also to some extent in his debt?-Yes.
6080. Did he give you cash when you asked for it?-Yes.
6081. Did you get cash from him with which to pay your rent?-A
little: £2.
6082. That is not marked in your pass-book?-No.
6083. Did you get it since the last entry was made in your book?-
I got it before January. That is not all my account.
6084. Have you another book?-No.
6085. But there are some things which you have got which are not
put in here?-Yes; I have gone to the shop when I did not have my
book, and I have got what I asked.
6086. What goods you got in that way when you did not have
your pass-book were all put down in Mr. Adie's book, and you
remembered about them when you came to settle?-Sometimes,
and sometimes not.
6087. If you did not remember them, did you trust to the honesty
of the shopkeeper?-Yes.
6088. Is your account read over to you at settling time?-Yes, if I
ask it to be done.
6089. Do you generally ask it?-Sometimes I do not, if I am in a
hurry to get home.
6090. Then you have perfect confidence in their honesty?-I
always think it would do more harm to them than to me if they
were not honest.
6091. Does Mr. Anderson send any smacks to the Faroe fishing?-
Not to my knowledge.
6092. Do you consider yourself under any obligation to ship in Mr.
Adie's smacks for Faroe?-I do.
6093. Is that because you are in his debt?-Yes.
6094. Are there many other men who go in smacks for the same
reason?-I cannot answer that.
6095. Have you ever heard any of your shipmates say they were in
Mr. Adie's debt, and that they could not ship with anybody else?-
Not so far as I remember.
[Page 151]
6096. Do you know whether, in point of fact, many of them are in
debt to Mr. Adie?-I don't know.
6097. Have you ever heard that they were?-I don't remember.
6098. When are you told the price you are to get for your fish at
the Faroe fishing? Is it at the settling time?-We are told some
time before, but not long.
6099. You leave the selling of the fish in the hands of the
merchant entirely?-Yes.
6100. Is it the bargain that you are to be paid according to the
current price at the end of the year for your half of the fish?-Yes.
6101. Before bringing out your half, there is a deduction of 5 per
cent. for commission?-I don't know about that. I have heard of
it, but I cannot say anything about it. I forget about these matters.
6102. Do you understand the bargain you make, and the way in
which the settlement is made for your fish?-We get one half of
the fish, and have to pay for salt and for the drying of the fish.
6103. Do you know of any other deductions that are made from
your earnings?-Yes; there is a deduction made for part of the bait
with which the fish are caught.
6104. Is there not something for lines?-We generally buy our
own lines.
6105. Are these set down as part of your account in the shop?-
Yes.
6106. But not in the pass-book?-Perhaps not.
6107. The book you have produced is for your own family
requirements?-I generally take the book with me; and when I
have it, I mark into it what I get out of the shop.
6108. Is it the boat's crew, or is it you individually, who are liable
for the lines?-Every man takes lines for himself, if he chooses.
6109. Do you fish any when you come home from the Faroe
fishing?-I fish a little, but nothing that can do me any good
towards selling. I get no selling fish.
6110. You only fish for your own use, then?-Yes.
6111. In a small boat of your own?-Yes; or sometimes on the
stones.
6112. Do you never sell any of the fish that you catch when you
come home from Faroe?-No; I have not sold any for the last four
years, so far as I remember.
6113. Would it not be easier for you to get your shop goods at
Ollaberry, rather than to bring them fourteen miles from Voe?-If
I want it, I can get anything sent down to Ollaberry.
6114. How far is it from your house to the shop at Ollaberry?-
About half a mile.
6115. Do you get things there as good as at Voe?-Yes.
6116. And as cheap?-Yes, so far as I can judge.
6117. Would you get them always at Ollaberry if you were not
fishing for Mr. Adie?-I cannot answer that.
6118. If you were not fishing for Mr. Adie, would you take
the trouble of going to Voe every week or every month, as you
wanted, to bring meal or tea or anything you wanted to buy?-
No, I would not.
6119. Do you get your meal at Voe?-Yes; most that we use
comes from there.
6120. I see it is not entered in your pass-book?-No; because the
meal has generally been sent in my absence, and I carry the book
about with me.
6121. How is it sent?-I have got some of it sent from Aberdeen to
Ollaberry direct.
6122. How much was there of it at a time?-I don't remember.
6123. Was there a quantity sent at the same time to other people
besides you?-No; it was only for myself and my family. I got a
boll, or a sack, or whatever I wished Mr. Adie to send for.
6124. Mr. Adie got it sent from Aberdeen to you?-Yes, because I
could get it cheaper from Aberdeen than from his own store. The
money, of course, was his.
6125. Are there any other men fishing for Mr. Adie at
Ollaberry?-I don't think there are.
6126. How did the meal come to Ollaberry from Aberdeen?-It
came by the steamboat to Lerwick; and there are two vessels that
come north, either of which it might have come by,-either the
little steamboat or a packet which ran there.
6127. What did you pay for that meal?-I cannot say.
6128. Is it settled for yet?-My account is squared up.
6129. Was it this year you got it?-Yes; but I have got it in
previous years in the same way.
6130. Do you know what you paid for it before?-I don't
remember.
6131. When was your account squared up?-Fourteen days ago.
6132. It was not squared up in your pass-book then?-No, I had it
with me; but I wanted to get home soon, and I did not ask Mr.
Adie to look over the pass-book.
6133. You saw there was a balance against you then?-Yes.
6134. Did you not ask the price of the meal you had got?-No.
6135. Did you not hear it mentioned?-No.
6136. Are there any people in your house who knit?-Yes; my
wife knits.
6137. Where does she sell her hosiery?-She sells it at Ollaberry,
or Lochend, or at Hillswick, whichever place is most convenient.
She buys the wool, and spins it herself. The articles which she
knits are not very fine, and she sells them to any person who will
buy them.
6138. Is she paid in goods or in money?-Generally in goods.
6139. Does she sometimes get money?-No; she seldom asks for
it.
6140. Why does she not ask for it? Does she not want it?-No,
not so far as I know.
6141. Has she an account in these shops?-She has an account in
some of them. She has an account with Mr. Laurenson at
Lochend.
6142. Anywhere else?-I don't know.
6143. Is that an account in your own name, or in hers?-It is an
account of her own, so far as I know.
6144. Is it quite a separate dealing from anything you have to do
with?-Yes.
6145. Have you ever had to pay your wife's account at Mr.
Laurenson's?-No.
6146. Has she ever got money from that account for her hosiery to
pay for your rent or for anything you wanted to buy?-No.
6147. Is it the practice not to sell hosiery for money in your
neighbourhood?-I cannot say. I know that the general thing is
goods.
6148. When is your wife's account with Mr. Laurenson settled?-
It is settled when she is able to pay it.
6149. Has she generally something to pay for what she gets, or has
she a balance in her favour?-It is seldom she has a balance in her
favour.
6150. If she has such a balance, is it settled in goods?-I cannot
answer that. If she wanted money she might get it, for anything
that I know.
6151. Do you pay a subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners'
Society?-Yes; 8s. a year.
6152. Have you ever lost any lines or a boat?-No.
6153. Have you ever had anything to receive from the Society?-
Yes; I was once sent home when I was shipwrecked.
6154. Was that all you have had to get from it?-Yes.
6155. Do you know of any people who have been turned out of
their land in Shetland?-Not in our district.
6156. Do you know of any who have been turned out
elsewhere?-Yes; Mr. Walker turned out some Delting, on
Major Cameron's estate.
6157. What was that for?-Because he wanted the land. Some of
them were very anxious to sit if they could have done so, but I
suppose they could not comply with his terms.
6158. Were these men fishermen?-Yes.
[Page 152]
6159. He did not want their service as fishermen?-Not to my
knowledge.
6160. Do you know of any man who has been turned out of his
ground for refusing to fish, or for selling his fish away from his
landlord or tacksmaster?-Not that I remember of.
6161. Does your wife sell any eggs?-Yes.
6162. Anything else off your farm?-She has nothing else to sell.
6163. Where are your eggs sold?-We generally sell them in
Ollaberry to Mr. Irvine.
6164. Have you an account there?-Yes.
6165. Is it settled at the end of the year?-If I am able to settle it;
but if I am not able to settle, then it just stands.
6166. Are your eggs put down to your account?-No.
6167. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if I want it.
6168. How do you pay your account there, if you never get money
from Mr. Adie at Voe?-Generally in this part of the world we are
not confined to one thing. People in this country have sometimes
different ways of getting money.
6169. Do you follow some other trade?-Yes; I sometimes sew as
a tailor.
6170. And you make a little money in that way?-Yes.
6171. Are you paid in money for your tailoring work?-Generally.
6172. Is that done for your neighbours?-Yes; but I generally work
for Mr. Adie and I am paid in money for that.
6173. Do you go to Voe to work, or do you go there for it and take
it home?-I take it home.
6174. Does the payment for that work go into your account with
Mr. Adie?-If I don't want it paid to me, it goes into the account;
but if I want money, I get it.
6175. When you want money to settle your account with Mr.
Irvine at Ollaberry, is that where you get it?-Not always.
6176. You get it from a party for whom you have made a coat or
trousers?-Yes.
6177. You say that your eggs don't go into the account with Mr.
Irvine: are you always paid for them in cash?-Not always. We
sometimes take goods for them; but if we wanted them to go in to
our credit, they would go.
6178. Do you always take goods for them?-Generally.
6179. What is the price of your eggs?-For the last year or two
they have generally been 6d.
6180. Can you sell them anywhere you like?-Yes.
6181. Could you sell them at Mossbank or at Brae if you could get
a better price there?-So far as I know, we could.
6182. Nobody would make any objection to that?-Not so far as I
know.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, THOMAS THOMASON,
examined.
6183. You are a fisherman at Eshaness?-Yes; and I fish at the
fishing station at Stenness.
6184. Have you a boat of your own?-I have a share of a boat.
6185. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Mr. Anderson for a
while, but I might fish to any one I choose. I have fished for Mr.
Anderson for a number of years.
6186. Have you a bit of land?-Yes, on Tangwick estate-Mrs.
Cheyne's.
6187. Who is the factor there?-Mr. Gifford of Busta.
6188. Are you quite at liberty to engage to fish with any merchant
you please?-Yes, any one. I am at perfect freedom to fish to any
man, and I have always been so.
6189. Do you keep an account with Mr. Anderson at Hillswick?-
Yes; I always keep my own account myself.
6190. Have you a pass-book?-No.
6191. You have an account in his books?-I generally have.
6192. Do you generally get your supplies and provisions from
him?-I do; but I buy my provisions where I think I can get them
cheapest. I am not bound to get my provisions from him.
6193. Do you find they are as good at Hillswick as you can get
them anywhere else in the country?-I find that I cannot get much
profit or advantage by going even to Lerwick to buy my goods,
more than by buying them at Hillswick. I could not get so much
profit as would pay me for my trouble.
6194. Have you bought meal at both places?-I generally buy very
little meal.
6195. Do you get enough meal off your own ground to serve
you?-Generally I do. I have a pretty good farm-just as much as
will hold us in meal.
6196. How far do you live from Hillswick?-About four English
miles.
6197. When you go to Stenness, do you get your supplies there?-
Yes; the supplies that are required for the fishing.
6198. You keep an account for these with Mr. Anderson at
Hillswick?-Yes.
6199. And that is balanced every year?-Yes; I settle once a
year-perhaps in November.
6200. Have you generally a balance to get in cash?-Generally I
have.
6201. How much did you get last year?-I don't know; the amount
differs yearly.
6202. But how much had you to get last year?-I don't know.
Perhaps I had £20 to get from him.
6203. Was that the balance which was due to you?-Yes; I
suppose I got £20 of cash from him last year.
6204. Was that the whole price of your fish, or was it the balance
which you got in cash?-It was the balance I got in cash.
6205. Do you think many of your neighbours got much?-I don't
know, for I don't interfere with any man's accounts.
6206. Are you a skipper?-Yes.
6207. Have you any idea whether any of your men are as well off
at the end of the year as you are?-I think so.
6208. Are most of them as well off?-I think so.
6209. You don't hear them talking about having balance against
them?-No, I don't hear much about that. It does not lie in my
way to interfere with it.
6210. Do you think the fishermen are better off now than they used
to be long ago?-I think they are a great deal better off. I know I
am much better off than ever my father was.
6211. How does that happen?-Because my father was a bound
man, and had to fish at a very low price before he could be a
tenant; but being a free man, I pay my rent on a day, and I serve
any man I choose, and make the best bargain for myself that I can.
6212. Would you be better off if you knew before settling time
what you were to get for your fish at the end of the year?-I know
the price of the fish about settling time.
6213. But you don't know it until settling time?-No. I might be
worse off if I knew it sooner, because I might get a lower figure, as
the merchant could not be sure then what he would get for his fish.
The price of fish in the south varies yearly.
6214. Who fixes the price at the end of the season?-I am not able
to answer that exactly.
6215. What is your bargain about it?-I have had no particular
bargains with the fish-curer; but there is an understanding that I
have to get the highest currency of the country.
6216. Do you know how that is settled?-I don't; or if I have
heard it, I did not understand.
6217. You don't know how it is found out what the highest
currency is?-No; I cannot answer that exactly.
[Page 153]
6218. Who tells you what it is?-It is publicly known at settlement
what is to be paid for the fish. We know what every man pays,
and what the dry fish can realize.
6219. Is Hillswick the nearest shop you can go to for your
goods?-It is the nearest shop that I can go to to get good goods.
There are small articles sold nearer, but Hillswick is the only
shop.
6220. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day to give
evidence?-Nobody told me; but I heard that this was the day
on which the evidence was to be given.
6221. Who told you that?-I don't remember now who told me. I
think there was a lad from Hillswick who told me about it two
days back.
6222. What was his name?-Arthur Sandison.
6223. What does he do?-He is the shopkeeper here for Mr.
Anderson.
6224. And he told you to come here?-He told me this was the day
when the evidence was to be taken, and that it was to be a public
meeting. I understood something concerning it, and I came here
voluntarily. There was no man who instigated me to come.
6225. Did Sandison not tell you that you had better come?-I
don't remember him saying that I had better come or not; but,
however, no man instigated me to come. I did not require to be
cross-questioned to come; I just came freely of my own consent.
6226. You said the fishermen are better off now than they used to
be: can you tell me any difference there is upon their condition?-I
told you already that they were bound men before, but they are not
so now with me.
6227. Is there anything else in which they are better off?-Yes; I
think a free man is better in every point of view than a bound man.
6228. Do you think the men get a better price for their fish now?-
I think they are getting double now for their fish what they were
getting about fifty years back, or perhaps forty years.
6229. Do you know that from your father?-No; I know it from
my uncle's accounts. He was a factor at Stenness; and I see from
his accounts what the price at Stenness was then, and I know what
it is now, and can see the improvement.
6230. Have you got his accounts?-I have. I have looked into
them at home.
6231. What kind of accounts are they?-Factor's accounts.
6232. Do they show the price of the fish, or just the quantities
delivered?-They show the price paid to the fishermen, and also
the price of meal and other articles.
6233. What was the price of fish in those accounts?-It was as low
as 4s. per cwt. for green fish.
6234. And it is now about double?-Yes.
6235. Do you remember the price of meal then?-Meal was
sometimes very high. I remember seeing meal charged at 12s. per
lispund of 32 lbs. This season it has been 5s. 4d.
6236. But sometimes it is higher?-Yes; the price of meal varies
continually, just as it does in the south market. I don't think there
is much advantage on that score.
6237. You don't think there is much difference on the price of
meal, but on the price of fish there is a great difference?-Yes.
6238. Is there anything else you are able to tell me about the
subject of this inquiry?-I don't think so.
6239. Have you any boys engaged at fish-curing work?-I had one
boy engaged at it during the past season. He was in Mr. Adie's
service at Stenness.
6240. Mr. Adie keeps a shop there during the fishing season?-
Yes; to supply the fishermen with any necessaries during the time
of the fishing.
6241. Does your boy keep an account at that shop?-He has only
been employed for one season, and I kept his account and settled
for him myself. He is quite a young boy-only thirteen years of
age.
6242. Do you think it is better for you to do that than to allow him
to have an account of his own?-He is not capable of keeping
accounts yet. He has had no education for that.
6243. Had he no separate account in Mr. Adie's shop?-It was a
mere trifle.
6244. Was he paid his balance?-Yes; it was paid at once in cash.
Mr. Adie paid it to me.
6245. Is that a usual way of doing with the beach boys?-I think
every one who had cash to get got it at once, and the man who was
careful would get his cash at once. If I had £50 to get from the
fish-curer, I would get it handed to me at once. I say that from my
own personal experience; and that is always so with careful men.
6246. Then you are a successful man, and I daresay you have a
large balance at your bank account?-I have too large a family to
have a large balance there. I require a great deal of money for my
family.
6247. Have you ever gone to the Faroe fishing?-I have only been
a ling fisher.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, HENRY WILLIAMSON,
examined.
6248. What are you?-I am a fisherman at Stenness.
6249. Do you hold some land on Mrs. Cheyne's estate?-Stenness
is the station where we fish; and the farms we hold under crop, and
where we live, are near it, at Tangwick.
6250. Your land is on the Busta estate, and you pay your rent to
Mr. Gifford?-Yes.
6251. Are you free to fish to anybody you like?-Yes.
6252. For whom do you generally fish?-I have fished for Mr.
Anderson for twenty-three years back.
6253. Do you get your goods at Mr. Anderson's shop at
Hillswick?-Yes, for the most part, or anywhere else I choose.
6254. Is there any other shop in the neighbourhood where you get
goods?-Yes, occasionally. There is a shop at Ollaberry; and
there is a store of Mr. Adie's at Stenness, kept by a factor during
the fishing season.
6255. Are there also some small shops in the country?-Yes.
6256. Do you sometimes get goods from them?-Yes; if I require
them, and if it is convenient for me.
6257. But most of your dealings are at Hillswick?-Yes, because it
is near hand.
6258. Is it as handy a place for you as any?-Yes.
6259. Do you keep an account there?-Yes.
6260. Is it settled at the end of the year, when you settle for your
fish?-Yes.
6261. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year in
cash?-Yes, for the most part I have.
6262. How much?-It varies very much, according to the fishing.
We had a good season this year, and consequently we had a good
return.
6263. But sometimes you have a balance against you?-I have not
had that for some time back. When the fishing is good, of course a
careful man will be able to save money.
6264. Is it five or six years since the balance was on the wrong
side for you?-It is between twelve and twenty years since I was
due anything; but I found no difference in the man I was serving,
when I required money in advance then, than I do now when I
have money of my own to get.
6265. Do you get cash in the fishing season when you ask for it?-
Yes; whenever I asked for it, even when I had to ask for it in
advance, I got it.
6266. Are you quite satisfied with the goods you get at the shop?-
I am quite satisfied both with the qualities I receive, and with what
is charged for the goods I require.
6267. Would it do you any good to have the price of your fish
fixed at the beginning of the year, so that you would know what
you were to get for them?-I am convinced that it would be a great
disadvantage to the fishermen at large in Shetland; and that was
partly [Page 154] what brought me here, when I heard there was
to be a meeting. I knew little about it until I came here, but I
thought I was called upon to come and give you my views upon
it truly. I think the present system in Shetland has done better for
the fishermen than any new system would do which could be
brought in; and I think I know about it, because I have been at
the ling-fishing for fifty-four years.
6268. Have you always had your price fixed according to the
currency at the end of the year?-Yes. We only know our price
some time before settling time, and I suppose we are paid
according to the current price which rules in the south market.
6269. Do you think the price is always fairly enough fixed
according to the sales which the fish-merchants have made?-I
think so.
6270. Do other people not think so?-I don't know. I hear very
little said about that; and as to that, I would not regard much what
others said. I would have more regard to my own views.
6271. But have you heard complaints made about that?-I have no
doubt I have heard them. It is a very common thing for us to hear
people complaining.
6272. Is it the men who are bound to fish that are more apt to
complain?-No doubt it is; but I am quite convinced, as I have
already said, that any change in the system will not benefit the
labouring men.
6273. Why?-Because I think they are fully as well served now as
they could be. Those who are not able to pay at the time for what
goods they require are dealt fairly with, and are never brought to a
stand.
6274. Then you think it is an advantage for the fishermen, in a bad
season, to be able to get an advance in order to carry them through
until the following year?-I know it is, because, although I have
never been one farthing in debt, yet there are many men with
families who I know, if it had not been for the kindness of the
merchant or his factor in giving them advances, would never have
been able to carry through, because they had no means of their
own, and their families did not support them.
6275. Are there many men you have known of that kind who
have been carried through the season by the advances of the
fish-merchant?-A great many in some seasons, but not at
present. These have been fine years for Shetland.
6276. But some seasons ago, when the fishings and the crops were
not so good, were there many such men?-About twenty years ago
there were plenty of them.
6277. Were there many of them five years ago?-I don't know that
there were so many of them then. There was a bad season a short
time ago; but it is turned twenty years now since there were such
bad times in Shetland, and the people were carried through then
chiefly by the kindness of the merchants for whom they worked.
6278. They got advances on their accounts just in the same way as
you would get your cash paid to you, if the merchant were due it to
you?-Yes; and not only that, but I know that the curers often paid
their rents for them in cash in advance, although I did not have
much experience of that myself.
6279. Were these advances generally made in money, or in articles
which the men wanted out of the shop?-Generally in goods.
6280. When a man wanted food or provisions, I suppose he would
generally get them advanced to him out of the fish-merchant's
shop?-Yes; or any place where it would be most convenient.
6281. But you say that in these bad years, when a man was behind,
it was the fish-merchant who carried him through?-It was. They
were carried through merely by the agency of the fish-curer.
6282. Did the fish-curer carry them through by giving them money
with which to pay their rent?-No; the curers brought in sufficient
meal to serve their purposes.
6283. And that meal was sold at the merchants' shops, and put to
the account of the men?-Yes.
6284. Was that done with clothing too?-Yes, clothing, and
whatever they required to get.
6285. But all that was done by these merchants in the confidence
that the men would pay them, if they were able, by the next year's
fishing?-No doubt they were repaid in some cases, but in some
cases the repayment was very slow. That depended altogether
upon whether the times turned out favourable.
6286. Do you know any of the men who were helped through in
that way?-I have no doubt I know them, but I have no interest to
say much about them. I don't want to enter into that matter at all.
I am getting well advanced in life, and I don't want to speak about
my neighbours' affairs.
6287. Were there many of your neighbours who were carried
through in that sort of way?-There were a great many of them
who required supplies.
6288. Did it take a great many years to carry some of them
through, and to enable them to pay up what had been advanced to
them?-I cannot tell how their accounts may be standing at
present.
6289. Then you only suppose that some of them may have been
able to pay up their debt in the course of the following year?-I
know they did so; and I might take myself as a specimen of that.
6290. But you said that you have not required any advance for
many years back?-Certainly.
6291. Do you think that within the last ten or fifteen years there
have been many men who have required to be carried through in
that way?-I don't know. Probably there may have been, but I
have not been requiring that for myself.
6292. But you have been speaking about your neighbours, and you
say it is an altered time with them?-It is, even within the time
you have mentioned.
6293. Do you think some of them, within that time, may not have
been able to pay their arrears in the course of next season?-I
cannot exactly say.
6294. But you have said so?-Well, it would rather appear so.
6295. You think they may have been so much in debt, that it
required more than one year for them to pay it up?-It is very
probable that may have been the case.
6296. Have you any boys engaged on the beach?-No.
6297. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; they are always working
away at it.
6298. Where do they sell their hosiery?-At different shops.
6299. Do they go to Lerwick with it?-Sometimes.
6300. Are they paid for it in goods?-I don't know. I don't inquire
much about it.
6301. Have they got accounts of their own?-Yes; they keep their
own accounts.
6302. Do they help you to keep the family?-I am not requiring it.
I can keep my wife and myself; and my two daughters knit to
provide themselves with what they want. I never inquire whether
they get part cash for what they sell or knit.
6303. Do they clothe themselves by their own knitting?-Yes.
6304. Do they never help you to buy provisions for the family at
all?-They work very hard at it, but I do not require them to bring
any food into the house. I can buy it myself.
6305. Did anybody tell you to come here to-day?-No; I came to
Hillswick on an errand to Mr. Anderson's shop, and I heard that
the meeting was to take place to-day. Mr. Sutherland also told me
about it.
6306. When did you hear about it first?-I can't exactly say. I
heard about it some time in the course of yesterday, but I cannot
say who told me. I told then that there was to be a meeting on
Thursday at the school-house.
6307. Do you not remember who told you?-No.
6308. Were you told about it at Stenness?-Yes; I was told about
it in the place where I live.
6309. But you don't remember who first mentioned it?-I do not.
6310. Are you sure you don't remember?-Yes; [Page 155] I can't
remember exactly who told me, for I just heard the story among
the public.
6311. Was that among the public at Stenness?-Yes.
6312. Was there not some one from Hillswick who brought the
news to you?-There may have been, for anything I know.
6313. Was it some of your own family who told you-No. I heard
it down at the station, where the boats come in from the sea.
6314. Was Mr. Sandison there?-Arthur Sandison was at Stenness
on Tuesday.
6315. Did you see him then?-I did. There were some affairs that
he and I had to manage, because he is Mr. Anderson's factor in
summer, and I have to do with curing fish for Mr. Anderson in
winter.
6316. Did Sandison tell you about the meeting?-No.
6317. Are you sure of that?-Yes.
6318. Did you not speak to him about it on Tuesday?-I don't
remember whether we said much about that, or anything about that
at all. There are various things that I may have exchanged words
about with him which I don't remember.
6319. Then you may have been speaking to him about it on
Tuesday?-No; I had not heard any word about it on Tuesday.
6320. Are you able to say that Sandison did not speak to you about
it on Tuesday?-I don't recollect him speaking about it at all.
6321. Do you swear that you did not speak to Sandison on Tuesday
about this meeting?-I would not be safe to answer, because my
memory might not hold good. Recollection gets short when age
comes on, and I would not care for swearing to that.
6322. You say it was only yesterday that you heard about the
meeting?-Yes.
6323. Can you swear you did not hear of it before yesterday?-I
swear that I don't recollect of hearing about it before yesterday.
6324. Is it possible you may have been speaking to Sandison about
it?-I may have done so; but if I did, I have completely forgotten
about it.
6325. Do any of your family work at kelp?-Yes; my daughters
work at it.
6326. What do they get for that?-I suppose the price varies.
6327. Do they gather the sea-weed and make the kelp themselves,
and sell it?-Yes.
6328. What do they get for it per cwt.?-I cannot tell. I think the
price is £4 or £4, 10s. per ton; but I am not very sure.
6329. Do you know how that is paid to them?-They are paid in
cash if they ask for it.
6330. But they have accounts of their own?-Yes.
6331. Who do they sell it to?-I think they sell it to Mr. Anderson.
6332. And it will be settled for when they settle their accounts?-I
believe so.
6333. Do you know if there is any difference in the price of kelp,
according as it is paid in goods or in cash?-I don't know, for I
have never inquired about that.
6334. You said that a number of your neighbours had been carried
through by the fish-merchant when they were in arrear from the
badness of the season, and you also said that you knew a great
number who had been so carried through?-Yes, a good many.
6335. Have you any objection to tell me their names?-I don't
know whether I could call their names to recollection.
6336. I asked you to tell me their names in private, and you
objected to do so; but I now ask you upon your oath whether you
remember the names of any such men?-I don't think I could tell
any of their names now. I would know their names quite well at
the time when they were getting what they were requiring, but I
cannot name any of them now.
6337. Is that because you don't remember them?-Yes.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, Mrs. MARY HUGHSON,
examined.
6338. Are you the wife of Andrew Hughson, a fisherman and
tenant here?-Yes; he is a tenant to Mr. Gifford on the Busta
estate.
6339. Where do you live?-At Hillswick.
6340. Is your husband a fisherman?-He is a day labourer for the
most part, and does land-work. He has been at the fishing, but not
lately.
6341. Is he too old to go to the fishing now?-No; but he has been
used to work on the land.
6342. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Very little.
6343. Do you knit any at all?-I knit for the family.
6344. Don't you sell your hosiery?-I have not sold much here. It
is not very long since we came from Lerwick.
6345. Did you use to sell it there?-Sometimes.
6346. Were you always paid for it in goods?-Yes.
6347. Did you want to get cash for it?-No, I never asked cash.
6348. Do any of your daughters knit hosiery here?-Yes; and they
sell it in Lerwick, as they were born there.
6349. Do they always go to Lerwick with it?-No; they sometimes
sell it to Mr. Anderson at Hillswick.
6350. Do they always get goods for it?-Yes.
6351. Do they want cash?-They don't ask for it; it is not the
custom.
6352. Are they quite content to take the price in the goods they
want?-I suppose so.
6353. Do they also work at kelp?-Yes, in some way, we all work
at kelp.
6354. How do you sell it?-We get 4s. 6d. per cwt. for it from Mr.
Anderson.
6355. How are you paid for it?-We are paid in whatever we may
ask for, in meal or tea, or goods of any kind.
6356. The way in which the kelp trade is carried on is, that you
gather the kelp yourselves, and burn it and sell it?-Yes.
6357. Have you to pay for the privilege of gathering it?-We pay
nothing.
6358. Can you sell it to any person you like?-There is no person
buying it here except Mr. Anderson.
6359. How do you settle about your kelp? Have you an account in
Mr. Anderson's books?-We get what we want, and pay for these
goods with the kelp, and then anything we take out additional goes
into the account for another year.
6360. Do you only settle once a year?-Yes.
6361. Do you always get 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it?-Yes; I got 5s. per
cwt. some years ago, but the price is lower now.
6362. How long, in the course of the year, do you work at the
kelp?-We work at it while the season is dry-from Whitsunday
till the 1st August.
6363. During that time how many cwts. will you and your
daughters gather?-Some years less, and some years more.
We will sometimes have about £2 worth.
6364. That will be about half a ton?-Yes.
6365. Did you take the price of that in goods?-We took some part
of it in clothes, and some part in meal or tea, or just what we
required of money articles.
6366. What do you mean by money articles?-Groceries, or meal
or bread, or anything of that kind.
6367. Why do you call them money articles?-Because it is not
often that they are got for hosiery or anything of that sort.
6368. Is it a common way of speaking here, to call groceries
money articles because they are not given for hosiery?-Tea is
sometimes given for hosiery, and bread and meal. They will
give a certain quantity of these money articles for hosiery if they
are asked for.
6369. Is there a less price given for the hosiery if it is paid in
money, or in money articles?-I don't know; I never asked or
received money, for hosiery either here or elsewhere.
[Page 156]
6370. Is there a different price for kelp according as it is paid in
money or in goods?-I have heard it said that it is 4s. in money, or
4s. 6d. in goods.
6371. Have you always got the price of it in goods?-Yes.
6372. Did you never get money for your kelp at all?-No; I never
asked money, and I never got it.
6373. When is the kelp settled for?-We settle for it when we sell
it.
6374. Do you sell it all in a lump at the end, or at different times
during the season?-Perhaps we sell it every time we burn it, and
we settle for it then.
6375. Do you go to the shop and say how much you have?-Yes.
We tell the merchant how much we have, and he takes us in and
pays us for it then.
6376. Is there anything marked into a book about it?-Nothing.
We get payment for it when we sell it. If we are due anything to
the merchant, he takes it off the price, and then we get the balance
in whatever way we want.
6377. Do you take the whole value of it at the same time?-
Sometimes, and sometimes not.
6378. How do you know whether you are due anything at the
time?-We ascertain that from the books.
6379. Is there an account in your name in Mr. Anderson's
books?-Yes; and if there is anything over at the end of the
season, we get it.
6380. Is it paid to you in cash at the end of the season?-Yes; if
there is anything due at the end of the season, we get it in cash.
6381. Have you ever got any cash from him at the end of the
season?-I never asked it, because I just cleared off with him;
and perhaps there was nothing due to me.
6382. Do you think you would be any better if you were paid in
cash?-I don't know. I am getting so far on in years, that it is not
much cash I would have to get now.
6383. Do you and your daughters agree to keep the same
account?-Yes; the account is generally in my name.
6384. Who does your husband work for?-He has been at the
fishing, and he has been doing land-work for different people. He
was working last summer to an Orkney man, who was over here
at the building of the church.
6385. Does he work at farm-work, or how?-He just works at
day-work, or lime-work, or anything he can get.
6386. Is he a stone-mason?-He is just a day labourer; he is not a
mason.
6387. Do you keep an account at the shop at Hillswick for all your
provisions and all the soft goods you want?-I have no account
there just now.
6388. But you say that you are paid for your kelp by being settled
with in an account?-Yes; we are paid off then for what is due to
us, and there is no other account kept until the following year.
6389. You say you have never asked to be paid in money: is it all
the same to you whether you are paid in money or in goods?-It is
all the same.
6390. Do you swear that it is all the same to you?-It has been the
custom to pay in goods, and there is no other place we could go to
where we could get the money, besides if we got the money, we
would just give it back into the shop that was handiest.
6391. Did you tell any person that you were afraid to come here
today?-No, I was not afraid to come.
6392. Did you get any advice from any person about speaking the
truth when you came here?-No.
6393. Are you sure about that?-I came to speak the truth when I
swore to do it.
6394. But before you came, did you say anything to any one about
being afraid to come, and were you advised to speak the truth?-I
know to speak the truth.
6395. But did you say anything to any person about being afraid to
come here?-I cannot recollect. I said to Mr. Sutherland that I
wondered there were no other women asked to come besides me
because there are plenty in the place. Mr. Sutherland asked me if I
got money for anything; and I said I never did, and that I never
asked it either for knitting or for kelp. I told him that if I had
asked it I did not know what might have been done; but I never
did ask it, and Mr. Anderson knows himself that I never asked
money for knitting. But when I was asked to come here, I was
nowise afraid to come and tell the truth.
6396. Did you say to any one that you did not like to come, for fear
of the merchant?-No, I did not say I was afraid for the merchant.
6397. What did you say about the merchant?-I said I did not
know why other people should not come as well as me, and that I
wondered why no other women were summoned but myself.
6398. Did Mr. Sutherland advise you to speak the truth when you
come, and not be afraid?-I spoke to Mr. Sutherland, and told him
I did not know where I had to come.
6399. Did Mr. Anderson speak to you about coming here this
morning? Did you see him to-day?-Yes, I saw him, and I spoke
to him here.
6400. What did he say to you?-Mr. Anderson told me to bring
my pass-book, whatever state it was in; but it has not been used for
some years.
6401. Was that it pass-book for the kelp?-Yes, it was it
pass-book for the goods that were used for the family.
6402. Had you a pass-book some years ago?-Yes; it is in the
house.
6403. But you don't enter your purchases in that pass-book
now?-No.
6404. Do you generally buy what you want at Mr. Anderson's
shop?-Yes.
6405. What do you buy there?-Meal or tea, or whatever I am
needing.
6406. How do you pay for that? Do you pay in money?-
Sometimes in money and sometimes in knitted things or in work
which my husband does.
6407. Does your husband work for Mr. Anderson?-Sometimes.
6408. When he works a day's work to him, does he get his money
for it, or is it put down in the account?-It is put down in the
account.
6409. But you said you had no account?-Well, I have no account.
6410. Has your husband an account?-Yes; when I said I had no
account, I meant that I had no account for kelp and hosiery, but
there is an account in my husband's name.
6411. And when he works for Mr. Anderson, his day's work is put
down in the account?-Yes.
6412. What does he work at?-Stone-work, or any other kind of
house-building.
6413. Is that account settled in money or goods?-In goods. I
don't believe he has ready money to get; he is due something.
6414. Is he generally due something?-Yes; he has been due
something for a while.
6415. Is it generally for Mr. Anderson that he works?-Only
sometimes.
6416. When he works for other people, is he paid in money?-
Yes; when he works for Mr. Sutherland, or any man who has no
shop, he gets ready money.
6417. But if he works for any one who has a shop, is he paid in
goods?-He does not work for any one who has a shop, except Mr.
Anderson.
6418. And he is not paid in money for that because he is due Mr.
Anderson an account?-His work is put into the account, and he
gets what he needs for the house.
6419. How many years has he been in that position?-I cannot say;
I have not been settling for him.
6420. Has he been working in this neighbourhood for a number of
years?-Yes; we came here from Lerwick about 1858.
6421. When did you begin to get into debt?-I cannot say, because
my husband was at the fishing then.
6422 Is it long since he got into debt?-It is some years; but I
cannot say how many, because I have not been settling his
account.
[Page 157]
6423. Is his account settled every year?-Yes.
6424. At what time?-About Martinmas or the 1st November, just
at the time when the fishermen are settled with.
6425. Do you know that there is generally a balance against your
husband at the end of the year?-Yes.
6426. How much will that balance be?-I cannot say.
6427. Although there is that balance, you can still get what you
want from the shop in the way of provisions or clothing?-Yes;
when he is working for Mr. Anderson.
6428. Is he at liberty to work for any person here who will give
him the highest wage?-Yes.
6429. There is no interference with him in respect to that?-No.
6430. Then it was your husband's pass-book that Mr. Anderson
referred to when you came here today?-Yes; I told him I did not
have it, but he said I should have brought it.
6431. But it is a good many years since anything was put into that
pass-book?-It is.
6432. Is it your fault that the things were not entered?-He was
not working for Mr. Anderson for some time about the time when
the book was stopped. We were buying our meal and other things
at some other place and we were not keeping regular accounts
then.
6433. Why did you not put your things into the pass-book
when you began again to deal at Hillswick? Could you not be
bothered?-I don't know.
6434. Did you ask for a pass-book then?-No.
6435. Is your husband here?-No; he is off fishing at the long lines
to-day.
6436. Is he one of a boat's crew there?-Yes.
6437. How many are there in that boat's crew?-I think there are
four.
6438. Have they gone to fish on their own account?-Yes; they are
just trying to get some fish for the house.
6439. He is not going to sell them?-No; he has not been in the
habit of doing that.
6440. Are all the fish he catches in winter used for your own
house?-Yes.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, EUPHEMIA PETERSON,
examined.
6441. Do you live at Hillswick with your father and mother?-
Yes.
6442. Is your father a fisherman?-Yes.
6443. Has he a bit of land?-Yes.
6444. Do you sometimes knit?-Yes; it is not very much I knit;
the most of it is for my father and brother.
6445. Do you sometimes sell your knitting?-Sometimes.
6446. Where do you sell it?-At a place called Hillyard, on the
other side of Roeness Hill, to Laurence Smith.
6447. How are you paid for it?-I get perhaps 16d. or 18d. for a
spencer.
6448. Do you get that in money?-No; in goods.
6449. What kind of goods?-Cotton.
6450. How many spencers will you take to Mr. Smith at a time?-
Sometimes I only take one. I had three spencers with me the last
time I went, at 16d. apiece.
6451. That was 4s. What did you get for that?-I bought 41/2 yards
of white cotton; nothing else.
6452. Was that all you were to get for the 4s., or are you to go
back again?-No; I just got it all in cotton.
6453. You had not an account there?-No.
6454. Was it common white cotton you got?-Yes.
6455. Do you remember what was the price of it per yard?-I
don't remember.
6456. How long is that ago?-It is about three weeks ago, or
perhaps more.
6457. Was the cotton a thing which you wanted at the time?-Yes.
6458. What did you do with it?-I made petticoats and other
things with it.
6459. Was it fine cotton?-It was sheeting cotton.
6460. Do you never get money for your knitting at any time?-No;
I never asked money for it.
6461. Do you knit with your own worsted?-Yes.
6462. Do you make the worsted yourself out of the wool of your
own sheep?-Yes.
6463. Do you work at kelp?-I have been at it three times, but I
am not working at it now.
6464. Did you sell the kelp yourself?-No. I wrought last with
Maria Sandison, and we got 4s. 6d. a cwt. for it from Mr.
Anderson.
6465. Were you paid by Mr. Anderson for the kelp you had made,
or did Maria Sandison get the money for you?-She got it.
6466. Then you don't know how the price was settled?-No.
6467. Did you get money for your share of it?-Yes. I got 2s. 6d.
one time; at another time I got 3s.; and I don't recollect what I got
the other time.
6468. Did you get that money from Maria?-I got a line for it. I
did not get any money, but I got goods for the line.
6469. I thought you said you got money?-They will give money if
we ask for it, but I did not ask for the money.
6470. What did you ask for?-I took goods for it-cotton.
6471. Did you want the cotton?-Yes.
6472. Did you get the money from Maria Sandison?-No. She
gave me a note, and I took it to the merchant.
6473. What was the note?-Just a bit of paper with some writing
put down upon it.
6474. Was it signed by anybody?-It would be signed by the
shopkeeper.
6475. And you took that to the shop and got what you wanted?-
Yes.
6476. How much did you get?-I don't remember.
6477. How long ago is that?-I don't remember.
6478. Did you ever get any money for your kelp at all?-I never
got any money; I never asked it.
6479. Why do you say that you never asked it?-Because I was
just needing the cotton, and I took it.
6480. But why do you say that you never asked for it? Do you
mean that you would have got it if you had asked?-Yes; I might
have got it.
6481. How do you know?-There are some who have got it when
they asked for it, but I never did.
6482. Do most of the women get money for their kelp?-I cannot
say.
6483. What does your father do with his eggs?-He sells them.
6484. Have you a great quantity of eggs to sell?-Yes; in summer
we have a good many.
6485. How many will you have in a week?-I cannot say.
6486. Do you generally take them to sell?-Sometimes.
6487. How many will you take at a time?-Perhaps a dozen or half
a dozen.
6488. What do you get for them?-We sometimes get 6d. a dozen,
but we have got 7d. We got that in the past summer.
6489. Do you get money for that?-We never take it in money; we
just take in goods.
6490. Is that the way all the people hereabout do with their
eggs?-I think it is the way that most of them do with them.
6491. Where do you take them to?-Sometimes to Mr.
Anderson's, and sometimes to Laurence Smith's.
6492. Is Smith's farther away than Anderson's?-Yes; it is about
two miles from us.,
6493. Do you get the same price from both places?-I got a
halfpenny more from Laurence Smith.
6494. But the price was paid to you at both places in goods?-Yes.
6495. What kind of goods do you get for your eggs?-I cannot say;
sometimes we take tea.
[Page 158]
6496. Do you just get the goods when you go, or is there an
account kept?-We just get them when we go. We have no
account at all.
6497. Is your father here to-day?-Yes.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON,
examined.
6498. You are a merchant and fish-curer in Hillswick?-I am.
6499. And you are the proprietor of the estate of Ollaberry?-No; I
am only tacksman.
6500. Is Ollaberry in Northmavine parish?-Yes.
6501. Your brother, I understand, is proprietor of that estate?-
Yes.
6502. Do you carry on business at Hillswick under a firm or in
your own name?-In my own name.
6503. I presume the way in which you arrange for the payment of
your fishermen is similar to that which prevails in other parts of
Shetland-viz. that the fisherman engages to fish for you for the
season at the summer fishing, and to receive payment for his fish
in winter at the price then current after the sales have been made?
-Yes.
6504. Is it the case also that the way in which you keep accounts
with your fishermen is that a ledger account is opened in name of
each man, in which the entries on one side consist of advances
made to him for the purpose of outfit and lines, boat-hire when the
boat is not his own, or for the price of the boat if he is buying it by
instalments?-Yes.
6505. And on the other side is entered the price of his fish, and
anything else that may be due to him by you?-Yes.
6506. Is there any further explanation you desire to make about the
way in which these arrangements entered into and carried out
between you and your fishermen?-I think that is all, except the
inducement I have held out to fishermen to buy their own boats
and lines. My practice for several years past has been that when
they bought their own boats and lines, and were free of debt, I
allowed them 6d. a cwt. extra on their fish.
6507. That is to say, that a fisherman who hires his boat, or one
who is paying up the price of his boat by instalments, or who is in
debt, is paid for his fish 6d. a cwt. less than one who is not in your
books for boat-hire or for the price of his boat?-Yes.
6508. Is that intended as an inducement to a man to get clear of his
boat-hire or of debts of that sort?-Yes, it was so intended by me.
6509. How long has that system been in operation?-I think since
1864.
6510. Have many of the fishermen got clear of their debts in
consequence of that inducement, so far as you can judge by your
experience?-I think so.
6511. You think that system has had a beneficial effect?-I think
so, judging from the diminution of the debts. I have taken the last
four years, and struck an average with regard to that.
6512. You have made a calculation applying to the last four years,
showing what?-Showing the degree in which the fishermen have
reduced their debts. I don't have that calculation with me here.
6513. Was it made for your own private use?-Yes. I wanted to
see whether I was correct in giving the fishermen that advantage,
and I found that the average amount to which the fishermen were
in debt was £13 each year.
6514. Was that an average only of those who were in debt?-Yes.
6515. And your calculation showed that the average debt of each
fisherman was £13 this year?-Not this year, but taking the
average for four years.
6516. I understood it was entered into for the purpose of
comparison with the period before the system you have now
mentioned was introduced?-No. The calculation I made was
for the purpose of satisfying myself whether I was correct in
giving that 6d. per cwt. in advance extra.
6517. Then do you find that the fishermen who are in your debt
now were indebted to you to the amount of £13 on an average?-
Yes.
6518. Are you of opinion that that is a less amount of debt per man
than existed before that system introduced?-I am.
6519. Did you enter into any calculation over period of years
before the introduction of the system, in order to compare it with
the state of matters during the last four years, or have you made
that comparison just from your general knowledge?-Just from my
general knowledge. I did not make the calculation so accurately
for the previous period as for the last four years.
6520. But you are clearly of opinion that the amount of debt before
that system was introduced was greater than it is now?-I am
clearly of that opinion.
6521. How many of the men do you calculate are now in your debt
to that average extent?-I am not able to answer that question
exactly.
6522. Can you not give an approximation to the number?-I am
afraid not.
6523. How many men do you employ altogether in the ling and
cod fishing in summer?-I have no cod fishing,-only ling fishing,
in which I think I employ about 120 or 130 men.
6524. Is that at Hillswick, or at all your stations?-At Hillswick.
6525. But you have stations at other places?-Hillswick is the
business place, but we have fishing stations at different places-at
Roeness Voe, Hillyard, Hamnavoe, and Stenness.
6526. Have you none at Ollaberry?-Only in winter time. We get
some fish there in winter-principally small fish, cod, and some
ling.
6527. You said that you don't send men to the cod fishing?-No.
6528. How do you distinguish between the cod fishing proper and
the cod which you get in winter?-There are different names for
the different kinds of fishing. The Faroe fishing is a different thing
from the home fishing.
6529. But some people subdivide the summer fishing into more
than one kind?-There is cod fished for in the voes near the coast
during the winter, but they are generally a smaller size than the
Faroe cod.
6530. Is that what you call the winter fishing?-Yes.
6531. Was that what you spoke of just now when you said you did
not send men to the cod fishing?-I meant I did not send men to
the Faroe fishing.
6532. Then by the ling fishing you mean the summer fishing?-
Yes.
6533. And in that the men catch cod and tusk?-Very few; and
what they get are thin and of an inferior quality.
6534. But ling is the staple fish that is caught at that time?-Yes.
6535. Your accounts with your men are settled annually in
November or December?-Yes.
6536. Do you find that the majority of your men have then a cash
balance to receive, or are they in arrear?-I am afraid I must
acknowledge that the majority of them are in arrear.
6537. Do you think the system of paying at such a long interval of
time has any effect in causing the men to be so deeply in your
debt?-I don't think so.
6538. Do you think it is their own choice or their own habits that is
the occasion of it?-I daresay there are various causes that
contribute to it. There may be some improvidence among them;
there may be afflictions among them of various kinds. There may
be men getting married, and getting families; and it is a sore time
with them when their children are small.
6539. Have you ever considered whether a system of shorter
payments could be introduced in your business which might
encourage habits of economy and foresight, and lead the men to
keep out of debt?-I have given that point some careful
consideration.
6540. You have already said that you introduced a [Page 159]
system of giving a premium to your men who were free of debt?-
Yes.
6541. But has any other plan for bringing about the end occurred
to you?-I don't think there is any other.
6542. Are you aware that the men sometimes express a wish that
they should know the price of fish earlier in the season than is the
case at present?-Yes. That has been expressed to me sometimes
by the men themselves.
6543. Do you think that would have any beneficial effect?-I
don't think it. In the winter fishing we have paid for the fish as
soon as the men came on shore with them, but I was not aware that
they saved any of that cash in consequence of receiving it at once,
any more than they would have done if it had been put to account.
6544. Is the winter fishing generally paid in cash?-Yes if the men
require it.
6545. Is it more commonly paid for in cash at the time of delivery
than is the case in the other fisheries?-The men have the choice
of getting cash or goods, just as they like, for their winter fish.
6546. I rather understand they have the choice of getting cash or
goods in the other fishings as well at any time if they like: is not
that so?-I think not. I think they would not get cash unless they
were clear men, or unless we had good cause to know that they
were really in necessity for something.
6547. But during the course of the summer fishing are they
allowed advances in goods as they require them?-Yes.
6548. Even though they should be to some extent in your debt?-
Yes.
6549. If a man is clear at the end of a season, and is fishing for you
during the following season, is it usual to give him advances in
cash to account of his fishing as often as they are asked?-Yes.
6550. Is it ever the case that a man who is in that position gets
some payents in cash throughout the season, and is paid the whole
balance in cash at the end, and has no account at your shop at
all?-I think not. I have never been aware of any case of that
kind.
6551. Is that because the man necessarily has to apply to you for
an outfit for the fishing at the beginning of the year, such as lines
or boats; or is it because he may have an account for necessaries to
his family?-He is not obliged to get his outfit or his necessaries
from me unless he likes. There is no obligation upon him.
6552. But, in point of fact, he generally does get an outfit from
you?-Yes; we are always glad to get them to buy an outfit from
us.
6553. Whether he gets a boat or not, I suppose the general rule is
that he takes his outfit from you?-Yes; that is the general
practice.
6554. Is a man expected to do that when he is engaged to fish for
you?-I certainly would expect it but he is under no obligation
whatever.
6555. If a man were engaging with you to fish for the summer, and
getting his outfit elsewhere, say at Lerwick, would that make any
difference in the way in which you would deal with him
afterwards?-None whatever.
6556. Would he be just as likely to get an engagement from you in
the following year, and as good a price for his fish?-Yes.
6557. I understand you have the largest shop in this parish?-I am
scarcely able to answer that, but I suppose it is the largest in this
district. Messrs. Hay & Co., at North Roe have an extensive
business also.
6558. Is North Roe as populous a district as Hillswick?-Yes.
6559. Then there is the shop of Mr. Adie at Voe?-Yes; that is a
larger business than mine.
6560. And Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at Mossbank?-Yes.
6561. Do these shops rank in size along with yours?-Yes; and
Hay & Co.'s shop at North Roe.
6562. But there are smaller shops throughout the country not kept
by fish-curers?-Yes. Mr. Peter Robertson, Sullem, and Mr.
Gilbert Nicholson, Ollaberry, are not fish-curers. Mr. Nicholson
has been engaged in that business to, but not on his own account.
6563. Do these shopkeepers sometimes buy fish?-I think so. I
think Mr. Nicholson buys cured fish in the winter, near the sea.
6564. Is it a common opinion that there is a good deal of
smuggling of fish by fishermen during the fishing season?-I
believe it is.
6565. Is that done for the purpose of getting payment in ready
money; or is the inducement for it, that they get a larger price by
disposing of their fish, in that way?-I don't think the payment of
ready money is the inducement, because for many years past it has
been my practice to send out money to the factor, with which to
pay the men for whatever fish they wanted to sell,-that is to say,
to clear any little bits of debt they had to pay at the station.
6566. But the men that you spoke of are bound by their
engagement at the beginning of the year to deliver all their fish
to you?-That is an understood thing, I believe; but I don't think
it has ever been acted upon.
6567. Are they at liberty to sell their fish to others?-They
generally take that liberty.
6568. So that only those fish go into the account which are
weighed by your factor?-Yes.
6569. Do your factors at these fishing stations pay ready money for
any large quantity of fish that is delivered to them?-I don't think
there are any large quantities paid for in ready money. I believe
the men generally give fish in that way to procure supplies.
Perhaps they might think my goods were not equal to Mr. Adie's
or those of other merchants, and they might give a few fish in that
way to these merchants in order to get money with which to clear
off their little bits of accounts there.
6570. That is to say, a man fishing for Mr. Adie might sell a few
fish to your factor in that way, or one of your men might sell to
Mr. Adie just in the same way, in order to get a little money for his
present needs?-Yes.
6571. Can you give me any idea from your books to what extent
that sort of ready-money payment goes on during the summer
season?-I could scarcely say. I should think that perhaps £5 or
£6 would cover the whole of that for the entire season, because
there are some of the men fishing to me who will ask the factor to
give them a pound in cash or so just at the end of the season.
6572. Therefore they don't require to smuggle the fish so much as
one might suppose?-No.
6573. Do you consider that the tenants on the Ollaberry estate are
obliged by the terms of their leases to fish to you only?-I do not;
although I think I have it in my power to compel them to fish if I
wished to do so.
6574. Do you think you have that in your power by the terms of
their leases?-I think there is only man who has a lease at present.
6575. Or by the terms of the contract under which they sit on the
land?-I think that is understood.
6576. That is a part of their bargain?-It is not part of their
bargain, but I think it is understood.
6577. When a man is in your debt in the way you have spoken of,
do you think he has a stronger inducement to deal at your shop
for the goods he requires, and to agree to fish for you during the
following season, than another man who is not in debt?-I am not
very sure about that.
6578. I suppose you would consider it fair that man who is in your
debt should deliver his fish to you rather than to another, in order
that he might pay off your debt?-Certainly.
6579. And also that he should take his supplies from your shop, so
far as necessary?-Yes, I would expect that.
6580. Is it also the feeling among the men generally, that they are
inclined to deal with a person who has advanced them money or
goods in a bad season? [Page 160]-I think they would have no
objection to deal in that way.
6581. You I would probably have rather to keep them within limits
in their dealing, for fear they should get too much?-Yes, I think
that is quite right.
6582. Perhaps they have no credit elsewhere?-I daresay they
might have credit elsewhere too. Probably they might have other
things, such as produce of different kinds from their farms with
which to clear off their small accounts in other quarters, and which
might not come my way.
6583. Do you not deal considerably in farm produce yourself?-
Yes; in cattle and other things.
6584. Do you send them south?-Yes.
6585. Do you purchase these generally for cash, or do your
purchases in that way enter the accounts of the men who fish
for you?-That just depends on the way the men want them. I
make a practice of purchasing all stock for cash; but if they
wanted it entered in their accounts, I do so.
6586. Are these purchases generally made at periodical sales?-
Yes, we have two sales in the year at Ollaberry; but I purchase a
good many cattle and horses just at any place where I can get them
through the parish.
6587. Suppose you made purchases of that kind from a man who
owed you a certain amount in your books, would these purchases
enter your books to his credit, or would they be paid in cash?-
That will depend upon our bargain. If a man said to me, I have a
cow to sell, and one part of the price I want to go to pay my rent,
and the other part I want put into my account, I would do that for
him. I have done that frequently, although the man was in my
debt.
6588. You said there were 120 fishermen in your books at
Hillswick?-That was a mere random guess; I could not speak
to it positively.
6589. Have you a number of men in your books at other places?-
Yes, at Ollaberry; but that shop is under a different firm Anderson
& Co.
6590. Is that shop kept by Mr. Irvine?-Yes.
6591. Do you take the principal oversight of the business there?-I
do.
6592. Then, when you spoke of the fishermen on the Ollaberry
estate being obliged to fish to you, I suppose you meant that they
were bound to fish for that firm?-Yes.
6593. Is there any other station besides Ollaberry where you have a
shop and fishermen upon your books?-No other station, except
the fishing stations I have already mentioned.
6594. These are not permanent establishments, but are only kept
up for the summer season?-There is a man who takes winter fish
at Stenness and at Hamnavoe.
6595. But there are not so many men residing there?-No.
6596. And it is only from those who reside on the spot there that
you receive fish in winter?-Yes.
6597. How many men may be engaged in the fishing at the
Ollaberry station, and who are entered in your books as employed
by you?-Probably between 50 and 60.
6598. Then you may have about 300 fishermen the summer
fishing, including the other stations you have mentioned?-I
think scarcely so many.
6599. One of the books which you have produced here is a
woman's book?-Yes.
6600. That has relation to hosiery and kelp?-Yes.
6601. You have not brought any books relating to the fishing
business, but I suppose you will be ready to show them if you
are asked?-Certainly.
6602. In what way do you engage your beach boys?-Some of
them are engaged about December, but perhaps it is the spring
before we get them all. We engage them for an annual fee,-that
is to say, a fee for three months in summer, or for summer and
harvest. The rates we pay them vary from about 45s. to £10 for
time summer and harvest.
6603. Do those to whom you pay £10 have charge of the curing?-
Yes; I have given the whole range.
6604. There are two classes of them-the beach-boys proper, and
the men who are skilled at the work?-Yes; and the man who has
charge of the curing.
6605. Are both those classes settled with at the end of the year?-
Yes.
6606. Do the men employed in the curing get payment before the
end of the year?-No.
6607. I believe at some establishments the men employed are paid
by weekly wages?-I am not aware of that.
6608. Do you open an account with them in the same way as with
the other people employed by you?-Yes.
6609. And if they want supplies they get them at your shop?-Yes.
6610. Do you find that the amount of debt upon these accounts
is greater or less than in the case of ordinary fishermen?-We
generally strive not to allow them to get into debt.
6611. I don't mean the amount of debt above their salary, but the
amount of debt they incur for furnishings in the course of the year:
is that greater or less than the amount due to them for their fee?-I
think it is generally less, taking the whole cases together. There
may be some cases where they fall behind little, but there are
others again who have money to get.
6612. Have they generally a considerable balance to receive in
money at the end of the year?-No; when boy has paid for his
clothes and provisions, he will not have very much to receive.
6613. Does a beach boy generally require an outfit of clothing at
the beginning?-Yes.
6614. Is it the sons of your fishermen whom you generally employ
as beach boys?-Very often, but not necessarily; I just engage any
one I can get.
6615. Is there a sufficient supply of them?-There has always
been hitherto.
6616. When a boy who is engaged for the first year gets more
goods than the amount of his fee, does he usually engage to work
for you in the same employment next year?-No.
6617. You are aware, I suppose that that has been alleged as the
commencement of the system of debt which is said to prevail in
Shetland?-I am perfectly aware of that.
6618. Is it not consistent with your experience that a boy who
overdraws his account in that way continues to serve you as a
beach boy?-I am sorry to say it is not, because sometimes he
goes elsewhere and leaves a balance standing.
6619. Is that a frequent thing?-I cannot say it is a very frequent
thing. I am glad to say that a great amount of honesty prevails
among the people generally.
6620. But is it not quite possible that he might go elsewhere and
pay his account to you from the wages he receives elsewhere?-It
is quite possible.
6621. Does that ever happen?-I think it has happened with me.
6622. Is a boy free to do that if he chooses?-Perfectly free.
6623. But, in point of fact, do the majority of boys who are so
engaged, and who overdraw their accounts during the first year,
remain in your service and work on until their account is paid
up?-I could scarcely say that that is so with the majority.
6624. But many of them do?-Many of them do, I think.
6625. Do they generally get further into your books, or do they
very often clear off their debt as they grow older and get larger
wages?-I think they often clear off their debt.
6626. Is it boy at the commencement likely, from his
circumstances, to incur a larger debt in the first year than
after a year or two, in proportion to his earnings?-I think not.
It depends, however, a great deal upon the parents. If a boy has
poor parents, who cannot afford to give him much clothing the
first year, to keep him warm, he must get these things from me
and perhaps he may fall behind, and yet be a very honest boy.
[Page 161]
6627. But what I was pointing at is this, that a boy may require
some outfit at the beginning of his career, and that he would
probably incur some debt?-That is true in some cases, but not in
all. A boy has been at the beach, and then he goes to the haaf;
perhaps the first year or two he will require to fall a little behind;
but if he is an honest, provident lad, he will soon clear off that.
6628. I understand you are a purchaser of kelp to some extent?-
Yes.
6629. Have you heard the evidence that has been given to-day on
that subject?-Yes.
6630. Was that evidence correct with regard to the manner in
which the kelp is paid for; or do you wish to make any correction
or addition to it?-It was perfectly correct, so far as the prices go.
4s. is the cash price, and 4s. 6d. is the goods price which we pay
for it.
6631. You pay for it either in cash or goods?-Yes.
6632. In which way do you make the greater part of your payments
for kelp?-I should think the greater part would be in goods
6633. Is that because you allow a higher price in goods, and the
people prefer taking that higher price?-Certainly. I have no
doubt they prefer it; otherwise they would not take it in that way
6634 I suppose if they got it in cash, they could not spend it very
easily anywhere else than in your own store?-There are various
shops round about where they could go to.
6635. Has that difference in the price of kelp been of long
continuance?-I think there has not been very much difference
on it for several years.
6636 But has it been long the practice to give an advanced price if
payment is taken in goods?-Yes; that has always been the case
during my experience. There have always been two prices, at least
at Hillswick.
6637. Have you any lease of the kelp shores?-Yes; all round from
Roeness Voe to Mavisgrind, on the Busta estate.
6638 Do you generally employ women, or allow any women to
gather kelp and burn it?-Yes; sometimes men do it also.
6639. But they are not at liberty to gather it for any one except
yourself?-No; that is quite understood.
6640. Have you to pay a lordship to the landlord for the kelp?-
Yes; 15s. per ton.
6641. You do something in the hosiery business also, and you have
brought your women's book to show how that business is
conducted?-Yes.
6642. Is the hosiery always paid in goods?-Not always.
6643. Have you any idea what amount is usually paid in cash?-
There is very little cash paid. Our general practice is, not to pay
cash for hosiery, but to give goods only.
6644. Is that because you consider you have a very small profit on
the hosiery?-Yes.
6645. What percentage do you calculate you have upon it?-I am
afraid my experience has been, that I have never had any profit
upon it. I have a profit on the goods, but not on the hosiery.
6646. Do you sell your hosiery generally to firms in Edinburgh or
Glasgow?-In London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or any place where
we can get it sold.
6647. But you sell it direct to retail houses in these places, and not
through Lerwick merchants?-Yes.
6648. Do you employ women to knit for you, and give out wool to
them?-No.
6649. Yours is exclusively a purchase business?-Yes.
6650. Do you make a bargain for the article, whatever it may be,
on the understanding that the woman is to take goods for it?-Yes,
that is the understanding; but still I have paid cash in a good many
cases.
6651. If you want a very fine article for any particular purpose, do
you then sometimes agree to pay in cash?-Yes; if they wanted
cash for that, we would give it.
6652. Would you give a lower rate in cash than in goods?-Yes.
6653. What difference might there be?-I cannot tell.
6654. Will it be 2s. or 3s. in the pound?-I should think so.
6655. Are you often asked to give cash for hosiery?-No.
6656. Do the people who bring it generally want goods?-Yes,
they want goods; but the practice may arise too from their knowing
that the understanding is, that they only get goods for the hosiery.
6657. In the case of a woman not wanting the goods at the time, is
the article she brings entered to her account, or how is it dealt
with?-It is entered to her account.
6658. She has a ledger account of her own in your books?-Yes.
6659. Or a pass-book?-Yes; many of them have pass-books.
6660. When a young woman begins to knit in that way, and to deal
with you, does her account generally run on for a succession of
years?-Yes, very often.
6661. Is it in what you call the women's book that these accounts
are entered?-Yes.
6662. The goods supplied to them, I presume, are mostly soft
goods?-Yes; soft goods and groceries.
6663. Do you give the same value in groceries hosiery as in soft
goods?-No; not the same value.
6664. Is it part of the bargain at the beginning, whether the
payment is to be taken in groceries or in soft goods?-There is
no agreement of that sort.
6665. If a woman asks for groceries, what do you do?-We just
give them to her.
6666. But you say you don't give the same value in groceries as in
soft goods?-Not exactly the same value.
6667. Do you mean that when she gets groceries, you give them to
her at a higher price?-Yes.
6668. You add something to the price for which you would sell
them to a cash customer?-Yes.
6669. Or to a fisherman who keeps an account?-Yes.
6670. A fisherman keeping an account would get his groceries at a
different price from a seller of hosiery?-Yes.
6671. Do you not think that a cash system for all these matters
would be simpler and more convenient for all parties
concerned?-I don't see that there would be any gain to the
purchaser. Suppose a woman came in with hosiery of the value
of 5s. and got cash for it, she would require to go either to my
shop or to some other shop with it for her goods.
6672. But if she had cash, she might purchase her goods in
Lerwick or in Edinburgh, or possibly, if the trade were not in so
few hands, there might be a greater competition?-There might.
6673. And she could lay out her cash in the way that was most to
her own advantage?-That might be so; but then I would not give
her so much in cash for her hosiery, so that I don't see where her
gain would be.
6674. Is it mostly in provisions or in goods that the hosiery is
paid?-I should say that it is mostly in goods.
6675. Is the account which a woman, knitting in that way, runs up
entirely distinct from the account kept by her parents?-Quite
distinct.
6676. If she is living in family with her father, is he considered
responsible for her debt if the balance is against her?-No.
6677. Have you known any case of such a debt being enforced
against the father?-I am not aware of any, and I don't think it
could be enforced against him.
6678. Or demanded from him?-I don't think it could be
demanded either, legally. But the necessity does not exist for
girls buying groceries. These are generally bought by the father
or brothers; and the girl is left free to have her knitting to clothe
herself with. It is all the wages she gets.
6679. Show me the way in which the women's book is kept?-
[Produces women's book]
[Page 162]
6680. Each woman has her name entered there, and on one side of
the account are entered the articles which she gets?-Yes.
6681. I see that some women make home-spun tweed?-Yes
6682. Do you purchase a quantity of that also?-Yes.
6683. Is it also paid for in goods?-No; it is paid for in cash if
required.
6684. But at a cash price?-Yes.
6685. In this case [showing] it was entered in the book?-Yes.
6686. Was that because the party wanted goods, or was there any
particular reason for it?-She was not sure when she gave the
tweed, whether she might require the whole of it in goods. She
wanted meal, I think, and some other goods.
6687. Are your dealings in cloth with the people the country very
extensive?-I buy a good deal of it occasionally, when the trade is
brisk.
6688. Is it paid for regularly in cash?-Yes.
6689. Do your purchases of it not appear in this book?-There
may be some of them there.
6690. But are the majority of your purchases of that sort of cloth
entered here?-Possibly they may appear in the men's ledger more
frequently, unless when the cloth is bought over the counter.
6691. If it is paid for in cash, why does it appear in any ledger?-
What is paid for cash does not appear in any ledger.
6692. Does it not appear in your day-book?-No, it does not enter
our day-book. We just buy it the same as we buy any hosiery. For
instance, if a girl brings it in, she may require the value of it in
goods; that is a separate transaction, finished at once, and there is
no more trace of it.
6693. Is the cloth almost all of the same quality?-It is all very
much the same.
6694. Do you ticket each web at the time when you take it in?-
Yes.
6695. Then I understand you to say, that the great bulk of your
dealings in cloth are cash transactions?-Yes, I think the bulk of
them, or they are settled for at the time in goods.
6696. Is tea a very usual article for the knitters to take out their
payments in?-I think it is. They often take tea.
6697. Have you known any cases in which the goods or tea so
obtained for hosiery were sold or disposed of for cash?-I think I
have not.
6698. It is probably not so necessary for them to do so when they
can get provisions for their hosiery, as when they are only paid in
soft goods?-Perhaps not; but it is not very likely I would learn
that that was done, even if it was the case.
6699. When a woman has sold you some hosiery goods or cloth,
and does not want goods in exchange to the full value at the time,
is it the practice in your shop to issue any line or acknowledgment
for the balance?-I believe that is done occasionally.
6700. Is the line in the form of an order to credit the bearer with so
much in goods?-Yes.
6701. Are these lines or vouchers generally brought back by the
party to whom they were given?-I think so.
6702. Are they ever brought back by another?-I think not;
because we know all the people, and they could not impose on
us in that way.
6703. But if the party to whom the line was issued had handed
it over for a consideration to another party, that would be no
imposition upon you?-No; but still we would know whether it
was done or not, that is to say, we would suspect something amiss.
If it was presented by another person than one of the woman's own
family, we would naturally suppose there was something
suspicious about it.
6704. Do these lines bear to be payable to any particular person?-
Yes; we always mention in them the name of the person who has
sold us the goods. However, it is perhaps right to state that that is
not very much practised in our shop.
6705. I think you said there were not many little shops in this
district?-There are a few. Arthur Harrison has a shop within two
miles of me; Laurence Smith has a shop within three miles; and
Jack Anderson has a shop within five miles to the westward.
6706. Are all these on the Busta estate?-Yes. Jack Anderson
rents a booth belonging to Ollaberry.
6707. Is there any difficulty or any obstruction placed in the way
of small shopkeepers getting premises and carrying on their
business in this district?-There seems not to have been any lately.
When I took a lease of Hillswick, I thought I had an understanding
that Mr. Cheyne was not to put up other places of business in the
district, but there was no sort of agreement about it and that
understanding has not been acted upon.
6708. Do you refer to shops or fish-curing establishments?-Not
fish-curing establishments; there is no restriction upon them.
6709. Any person may set up a business of that sort?-I think so.
6710. You have been present and heard the whole of the evidence
that has been given to-day: is there any part of it with regard to
which you wish to make any statement or contradiction?-There is
nothing that I am aware of.
6711. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-I
am.
6712. Do most of your fishermen subscribe to that society?-A
good many of them do.
6713. Is their annual subscription debited to them in their
account?-Yes, very frequently.
6714. When they have anything to get from the society, how is that
payment settled with them?-That I daresay depends very much
upon their own wishes.
6715. Does it depend to any extent on the fact, whether or not they
are indebted to you at the time?-I don't think it does generally.
6716. But it may sometimes?-It may sometimes.
6717. That is to say, supposing a man who loses his boat has a sum
to receive in cash from the society, which passes through your
hands, it may be written down to square off your account?-No. It
may be entered to his credit in the account; but I think, if the
matter was searched into, it would be found that in that case it was
to square off for some boat he had got before, and which he had
not paid for.
6718. And not his ordinary shop account?-No.
6719. Therefore, you say that you would retain the money if he
was in debt to you for a boat?-Yes.
6720. But you would not retain it if he was only in debt to you for
shop goods?-I think not.
6721. What is your reason for making that distinction?-I think it
is nothing but simple justice to myself. It would certainly be very
unreasonable for a man to get remuneration for a boat from the
Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society while the same boat was
standing unpaid for in my books.
6722. Would the same principle not apply to the case of an
account which a man owed to you?-No doubt the man would be
entitled to pay me that account; but I would certainly consider it a
great hardship if I had to pay that money over to a man who had an
account standing due in my books for the very boat for the loss of
which the money was given.
6723. Have you ever had any dispute with the fishermen about the
payment of that money, or any complaints that it was not settled
for in cash?-I don't think I have, within my recollection. I think
there was one man who said something about it at one time; but
after I had showed to him what I considered to be the justice of the
matter, I fancied he was satisfied, and never heard any more about
it.
6724. What is the other book you have brought with you?-It is a
boat-book, merely for entries relating to the boats.
6725. How are the boat-builders paid? Do they run accounts with
you in the same way as the fishermen?-I think so.
6726. Are they paid by weekly wages?-No; they are paid so
much for building a boat.
6727. What does their contract generally amount to?-We furnish
the wood, and merely pay them for [Page 163] their work. I think
we generally pay £3 for the work on a six-oared boat.
6728. When you enter into a contract for the building of a boat,
does the man open an account, or is it generally the case that he
has an account already running?-The builder I employ generally
has an account running.
6729. Are his family and himself supplied with goods from your
shop from time to time?-Only occasionally. I think the boats are
paid for mostly in cash. Probably he would get a few pounds from
me if he was requiring them, and then he would come and build
boats for me afterwards.
6730. Are the boat-builders a class of men by themselves, who
work at nothing else?-Yes.
6731. Do they travel about the country?-Yes.
6732. Are they not employed by you all the year round?-No.
6733. Then, they generally get an advance of money from you
before they begin work for you?-I don't say generally, but I say
the particular builder I employ has done that sometimes.
6734. So that, when his boat is finished, he has generally nothing
to get?-No; he has something to get still, because he is building
more than one at a time.
6735. But during the time he is building them, he has an account at
your shop for necessaries to his family?-Yes.
6736. What is the other book you have there?-It is a ledger for
the purpose of entering anything into-goods supplied to a family.
6737. Are these the families of your fishermen?-Yes; or it may
be others that we intend to have short accounts.
6738. But these accounts are only for goods supplied: there is
nothing entered that is due to them?-No.
6739. The other side of the account is not in this book at all?-No.
6740. And the fishermen's ledger is quite different?-Yes.
6741. It is a large book?-Yes.
6742. Is there a separate ledger for beach boys and men employed
in fish-curing?-Yes.
6743. Is there also a separate ledger for the kelp women?-No;
their accounts are entered in the women's book unless they are
paid right off.
6744. Show me the account of one of these kelp women in the
women's book: take Mrs. Hughson?-I don't think she ever had
anything to get, and therefore we would not enter her name in the
book.
6745. Take Maria Sandison, who was spoken of today?-I think
her account was kept on a slip of paper or in a small book, until
they got it squared off, and then it was entered.
6746. I see there is nothing about kelp in her account?-No, I
fancy it was just paid off at the time.
6747. Is there anything else you wish to say?-It has been asserted
that the fish-curers paid no cash, and that scarcely a coin passed
between the curer and the fisherman. That was said before the
Truck Commissioners in Edinburgh. Now, I would wish to show
what amount of cash I have paid since I began to settle this year. I
think the cash I paid during the settling time in November and
December last amounted to £1006.
6748. What was it in previous years?-I cannot tell for every year;
but I know that for the whole year, in 1866, I paid £1811 in cash,
and in 1870 I paid £2040. I think the highest I paid to one man
this season was £24, 7s. 9d. in cash at settlement.
6749. Was that much higher than the average?-It must have been
higher. Perhaps I may be allowed to say also, that I think the great
bar to improvement in Shetland is the want of leases. In my
opinion, a Land Bill for Shetland-an Act somewhat resembling
the Irish Land Bill-would be very useful, by which all
improvements could be held to belong to the tenant instead of to
the proprietor; because as soon as a tenant here begins to improve
his farm, he is very likely to have his rent raised upon him.
6750. Have you known cases in which the rent has been raised
upon an improving tenant?-Yes. I am not prepared just now to
give names, but I think I have met with several cases of that kind.
6751. What is the bar to the introduction of a system of leases in
Shetland, which, you say, would greatly improve the country?-
There seems to be an unwillingness on the part of the proprietors
to give lease. I have known several parties who have asked for
leases and have not got them.
6752. Has the unwillingness of the proprietors to give leases
anything to do with the fishing?-I don't think it.
6753. On some properties are not yearly tenants under an
obligation to fish, which might be interfered with, or which might
not be so easily enforceable, there were leases?-That shows the
necessity granting leases.
6754. But is not the objection of proprietors to grant leases due to
some extent to the fact, that it would be less easy to enforce the
obligation to fish if leases existed?-Perhaps it is, but even on
those estates where there is no such obligation leases are not
granted.
6755. Is there a general desire on the part of fishermen-farmers in
Shetland to have leases?-I cannot say that exactly. I think there
is such desire in many cases, but then they fear that their rent
would be raised if a lease were granted.
6756. Have there been any cases of leases being granted or offered
in which ground has been given for that apprehension?-I think
so, although I could not name them just now.
6757. Have there been any attempts made recently in Shetland to
introduce leases on a larger scale than they at present exist?-
Not within my knowledge. With regard to the Ollaberry property,
I find there are only 33 out of 71 tenants who fish either to
Anderson & Co. or to me.
6758. Are you aware whether the other 38 tenants fish at all?-
There are some of them who do not fish, but there are others of
them who do, and who are ling fishers. The man Blance who was
examined goes to Faroe and I think another man too.
6759. Do many of them go to Faroe?-No; not many.
6760. They are not obliged to engage with any particular person at
the Faroe fishing?-No.
6761. In the evidence to which you have referred as having been
given in Edinburgh, there is a statement that leases were offered
on a large estate in Delting or in Yell, but that the bulk of the
tenants would not accept of them: do you know the reason of
that?-Because, I suspect, they were suspicious of the factor.
6762. The statement was, 'Ten years was mentioned as the
minimum length of the lease, because the people were frightened
to take leases; but when any one came and asked for a longer
lease, I gave it to him. No one would take a longer lease than
fourteen years, and I have given none longer than fourteen.' Can
you suggest any other reason than that you have named for the
tenants declining leases on these estates?-I think it must have
been because under the leases, all improvements were to be held
to belong to the landlord.
6763. But they belong to the landlord at present?-True; but what
I mean is, that that is the great bar to improvements in Shetland.
6764. Do you think it is possible for a man to improve his land
much who is employed for four or five months in the year
fishing?-I think it is. His time in winter is almost thrown away
at present; but if he had the security of getting the value of his
labour at the end of his lease or on removing, I think he would
work actively and improve his land. There are many, I know, who
have regretted that they could not spend their time in that way.
6765. Is it not possible for a tenant who wants to improve his land
to make some contract with his landlord on the subject?-I have
never been aware of any case where that has been done.
6766. Have you the management of the Ollaberry estate in your
own hands?-Yes.
6767. Have you made any effort to induce the people [Page
164] there to take leases, or offered them compensation for
improvements?-I have not offered them compensation. I could
not do that; but I have told them that the understanding on which
they held their lands was this-that if they made improvements,
either in cultivating the land, keeping up their fences, or repairing
their houses, their rents would not be raised during my lease.
6768. You have only a lease of Ollaberry?-Yes, for nineteen
years.
6769. Has your intimation to the tenants, that their rents would not
be raised if they improved their holdings, had a beneficial
effect?-I think it has in some cases; that is to say, they have kept
up their fences very well, and I know some parties who have added
to their cultivated ground.
6770. Do you think that has been done to a greater extent than
would have been the case if you had held out no such inducement
to them?-I would fancy so.
6771. Is there any other suggestion or statement you wish to
make?-I think not.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, PETER PETERSON,
examined.
6772. Are you a fisherman at Hillswick?-Not present. I am at
Hillyar now. I live at Hillswick, but I am not fishing there.
6773. Have you got any land?-Yes; a small piece in Hillswick
from Mr. Gifford.
6774. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Laurence Smith at Hillyar
at present.
6775. Is he a large curer?-No; he has only two boats fishing for
him. I have been fishing for him two years now.
6776. For whom did you fish before?-For Mr. Anderson.
6777. Why did you leave off fishing for him?-I got into debt, and
was refused supplies from him; and, as I could not do without
supplies for my family, I went to another man.
6778. Why would you not pay your debt to Mr. Anderson?-I did
not make a sufficient fishing to pay it, and I had no great means to
work on either: I had no boat.
6779. What was the amount of your debt?-£17, 9s. 5d.
6780. And when it came to that amount, he refused you
supplies?-Yes.
6781. At what time of the year was that?-In the summer time,
during the fishing season.
6782. Did you settle with him at the end of that season?-Yes.
6783. Did you clear off what was due by you at that settlement, or
was there still something due to Mr. Anderson?-£17, 9s. 5d. was
the debt I left when I went away from him. I continued to fish the
season out, and left him when the season was done.
6784. But you made a settlement at the end of the season?-Yes.
6785. What was the result of that settlement?-He made out that I
was due him £17, 9s. 5d, and he summoned me for it.
6786. Did you ask him how much was due at the time when he
stopped the supplies?-No.
6787. Then, the sum you have mentioned was due after he had
allowed you credit for all the fish of that season?-Yes.
6788. So that, at the time when he stopped the supplies, there
would be a larger sum than that due by you?-There may have
been.
6789. Were you asked to engage to fish to him after that?-No.
6790. What was his reason for summoning you?-I don't know. I
was not asked to fish to him again, so that I had to look out for
myself some other way, and I went to Smith and got supplies from
him.
6791. Was there a decree against you in the action in which Mr
Anderson summoned you?-No, I have not got any yet.
6792. Was the case not decided against you?-I don't think it. At
least I left it unsettled in the hands of Mr. Spence, the lawyer,
when I left the town.
6793. Is the case not at an end yet?-I don't know. Mr. Spence
was to give me notice but I have got none yet.
6794. What was the nature of your defence in that case?-I was
not able to pay, and therefore I was forced to appear in Lerwick
before the court. Very likely, if I had been in a good boat the last
season I fished for him, I would have done somewhat better.
6795. But was the debt really due for which you were
summoned?-I did not have any pass-book, and got no copy
of my account, so that I could not say whether it was due or not.
6796. Did you ever ask for a pass-book?-I have asked for copies
of my account.
6797. Did you get them?-At one time I got a copy of my account
for nine years.
6798. Had your debt been running on increasing for nine years?-
It was always increasing.
6799. Have you got these accounts here, or are they in your
lawyer's hands?-They are in Mr. Spence's hands in Lerwick.
6800. How often did you ask for them before you got the accounts
for the nine years?-I asked for them when I was summoned.
6801. Had you ever asked for them before?-Yes; I had asked for
them sometimes, but not every year.
6802. Did you always get them when you asked for them?-No; I
got none until I got the whole at one time.
6803. Why did you not get them when you asked for them?-I
don't know; I never was refused them, but I did not get them.
6804. Were you just put off?-Yes.
6805. Did you fish for Mr. Anderson all the time these accounts
were running up?-Yes. The commencement of the debt was
when I lost a fleet of lines by bad weather. There might have been
a little due before that, but it was very little.
6806. How much do you call a fleet of lines?-Just what the boat
carries. A boat takes 108 lines, and we lost them all except
eighteen. The weather prevented us from taking any more in.
6807. Were these lines hired from Mr. Anderson?-Yes.
6808. Are the fishermen always liable for hired lines which they
lose?-Yes. If they lose lines which they have hired, they have to
pay for them.
6809. What is the value of these lines?-The price is about 2s. 8d.
per line for new lines when they are ready for sea.
6810. Then a fleet of 108 lines would cost about £8 or £10?-I
never give any consideration to what the cost of them might be.
There were some of them old and some of them new; but I think
2s. 8d. was about the price for new lines about that time. The
price varies at different times.
6811. Is not each man of the boat's crew liable for his share of the
lines?-Yes. If there are five men in a boat, then the lines belong
to these men, and they have each to pay their share of the hire for
the season.
6812. In that way, you would be liable only for one-fifth of the
value of the lines?-Yes; only for one-fifth that year.
6813. And that was the beginning of your debt?-Yes; but it was
always going on, as I had a small family, and they were needing
bread. Then interest was charged, and such as that.
6814. Was there any interest charged upon that account?-Yes.
6815. Are you sure of that?-Yes. It is marked down in the copies
that I got.
6816. Did you ever know any man who got the whole of his
accounts for nine years at once except yourself?-No.
6817. Did you ever know a man who asked for them?-No.
[Page 165]
6818. Did you ever know a man who was nine years in debt to a
fish-merchant, with the debt always increasing, except yourself?-
I could not positively say. I could not pick out any particular man;
but very likely there are some who have been in the same position.
6819. During the time your debt was increasing, did you continue
to fish every year for Mr. Anderson?-I was fishing for him the
whole time.
6820. Did you, during that time, sell any of your fish to other
merchants?-I did. The last year I was fishing for him I sold
some fish to others, in order to keep my family alive.
6821. Who did you sell them to that year?-To Mr. Adie's factor.
6822. Was that what you call smuggling fish?-Yes. It was
necessity that made me do it, in order to save my family.
6823. Was any objection made to your selling them?-No. I
told that in court the same as I am telling it to you, and there was
nothing said to me for doing it. I was obliged to do it.
6824. Was it not quite a fair thing for Mr. Anderson to do to
summon you for the debt you were due him?-He did summon
me for it; and when I asked him how it was to be paid, he wanted
me either to pay it down at once or get cautioners for it, but I
could not do either of these things. I perhaps I might have got a
cautioner, but the money I did not have.
6825. Is it usual for a fisherman to get a cautioner when he is a
little in debt?-I don't know; some of them have got one.
6826. But if the man continues to fish for the merchant to whom
the debt is due, is he required to get a cautioner?-No. It is only
when he goes away from the merchant that he is asked for a
cautioner.
6827. Were you bound in any way to fish for Mr. Anderson, or for
any one else, during these nine years?-I suppose I was, from the
way I was in debt to him; but, instead of getting out of debt, the
debt always increased.
6828. Whose fault was that?-I don't know. It was not my fault.
As I have said, the last season I fished for Mr. Anderson I did not
have a boat fit to go to sea with; but very likely, if I had had a good
boat that season, as it was a good year's fishing, I might have got
the debt somewhat reduced. Therefore it was not my fault. I got a
boat from him, but ought to have got one that was fit to go to sea.
6829. Had you not your choice of boat?-I had no choice of a boat
for that season.
6830. Where do you get the supplies for your family now?-From
Laurence Smith, the man I fish to.
6831. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes; I have settled with
him two years now.
6832. Had you something to get in cash last year?-Yes. The first
year I fished for Laurence Smith I had 28s. to get, after paying for
the things I had got from him during the season. This year, when I
settled with him, I was clear. I had nothing to get, or very little.
6833. Were these two good fishing years?-They were very good;
but the fishing is not the same with all the boats. They are not
always equal in the same year.
6834. What was the price of meal at these two stores you have
been dealing with?-It is just up and down, according to the
market-less in one year than another. I think that last year it was
about 21s. per boll in Mr. Smith's store.
6835. Are you told the price at the time you buy the meal?-Yes.
6836. Is the quality of the meal you get there as good as at Mr.
Anderson's?-Yes, it is equally good. Meal and flour are just the
same at the one place as at the other.
6837. Could you get better meal or flour anywhere else?-I don't
know. We would, no doubt, get a different quality in Lerwick, if
we were dealing there.
6838. Have you tried it there?-No.
6839. Are you obliged to take your provisions from the shop of the
merchant you fish for?-I don't know about that. I have asked Mr.
Smith at different times for a few shillings until the end of the
twelvemonth.
6840. Have you got it?-Yes; I got it, but I never asked for any
money to buy meal with, because he brought up stores there to
supply his customers.
6842. But is it understood among the fishermen here that they
ought to take their stores, or part of them, both provisions and
clothing, from the merchant to whom they sell their fish?-That is
generally the way in which they take there.
6842. Are they generally obliged to do that?-No; I don't think
they are obliged to do it.
6843. Can they get cash from the merchants with which to buy
their goods in other places?-I don't know. If the merchant has
meal and other things which they are requiring, and can sell them
as cheap and as good as they can get them at any other place then,
of course, they don't need to ask money from him.
6844. But they generally do get their provisions from the
merchant's shop, and nowhere else?-Yes.
6845. Did you ever ask for cash with which to go and buy your
provisions from another store?-No; but I got an allowance from
Mr. Smith with which to go to Mr. Anderson's factor if he (Mr.
Smith) did not have the things I wanted.
6846. When was that?-I got it in both years when was fishing for
Mr. Smith.
6847. Was that a general allowance or was it given to you on some
particular occasion, when you wanted something?-If there was
anything I required for the fishing, which Mr. Smith did not have,
then I got leave from him to sell fish to another merchant, so that I
might buy it, or I got cash from him with which to buy it from
another.
6848. That, I suppose, was when you wanted any kind of clothing
which he did not keep?-Yes; or a bit of meat, or butter or meal, if
he did not have it. Then he gave us money to buy it with from Mr.
Anderson's, or allowed us to go and sell fish to Mr. Anderson and
to purchase it.
6849. Did you often do that?-Not often.
6850. Your daughter was examined to-day?-Yes.
6851. She works at the kelp?-Yes, a little. She is young yet, and
has not done much to it.
6852. She also knits a little?-Yes. The most she has knitted has
been for people belonging to the family, stockings and other things
that we were requiring for ourselves.
6853. She also sells your eggs?-Yes.
6854. When she sells these things, are they paid for in money or in
goods?-We are generally requiring some stores for the house:
soap or soda, or a little tea or sugar; and they are got in that way.
6855. Does she always sell her hosiery for goods?-Yes; I suppose
she never asked anything else for it.
6856. Do you sell the eggs yourself, or are they usually sold by
your daughter?-They are generally sold by her.
6857. Has she a book of her own in which they are entered?-She
has no book. They are generally paid for at once.
6858. How are you paid for your winter fishing?-We were
generally paid for every haul as we brought it ashore, but we
cannot do that now. We have to salt our fish ourselves in the
winter fishing; and when we have got as many as two or three
cwt. we send them over to Mr. Laurenson, and sell them to him.
6859. Then you are paid for them on account now?-Yes; we
cannot settle for them now every time we come ashore. We salt
so much, and sell it off, and then we begin to salt again; but
before, when we sold our fish green, we settled for every haul of
fish as they came ashore.
6860. Did you do that with Mr. Anderson too?-Yes, as long as I
fished to him.
6861. Did you get cash for that?-No; I cannot say that I ever got
cash.
6862. Did you ask for it?-Yes; we asked for cash [Page 166]
several times, but we only got a small line, saying we had
delivered so many fish.
6863. Have you got any of these lines this year?-No.
6864. What did you do with these lines?-When we came back
with the line, we got anything we required for it.
6865. Did the line name any particular sum of money?-Yes.
The haul was divided between four men, and every man got his
haul marked down on a separate line, with his name on it.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ANDREW ANDERSON,
examined.
6866. Are you a fisherman at Hillyar?-I am.
6867. Do you live there?-Yes.
6868. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for
the last two years.
6869. Who did you fish for before?-I fished for different men, for
Mr. Inkster, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Williamson, and now for Mr.
Smith.
6870. Who did you fish for last before Mr. Smith?-For Gideon
Williamson, or James Williamson, his uncle.
6871. Is your fishing paid for every year in the winter?-Yes.
6872. Do you generally get a payment in cash at settlement?-I
have been a poor man, and very unfortunate, and I never had much
cash to get; but sometimes I did get some, and sometimes not.
6873. What was the reason why you did not get it?-A poor man
sometimes did not have it to get.
6874. Were you generally in debt to the merchants?-Sometimes I
was a good deal in their debt and sometimes not, just as the season
turned out. In some years I cleared off all my debt, and in other
years I was a good bit behind.
6875. How long have you been in debt?-I have been in debt now
for a good while, I cannot tell for how many years; and when I
could not pay my debt, then I could not get my supplies, and that
was what made me shift from man to man.
6876. Have you shifted often for that reason?-I have shifted
twice because I was in debt.
6877. When did you shift first because you were in debt?-I
cannot tell how long it is ago.
6878. Who did you shift from then?-From Mr. Anderson to Mr.
Williamson.
6879. You were in debt to Mr. Anderson at that time?-Yes.
6880. And you could get no more supplies?-I could not get the
supply that I asked for, and for that cause I left.
6881. When your supplies were stopped, did you go on fishing for
Mr. Anderson until the end of the season?-I had not commenced
then, and my family required meat, and I had no money to buy it
with.
6882. Why were your supplies stopped? Was it because you were
in debt?-Mr. Anderson never said anything about that; but when I
asked for bread, he said they would not give it until fishing time.
6883. How much were you in debt at that time?-I don't recollect.
6884. Had your debt been running on for a number of years?-
Not for a great many years; but I was a good bit in debt to him,
although I don't recollect how much, as I had no pass-book, and
no copy of my account.
6885. Was it ten years ago since that happened?-I cannot say
rightly, because I was away from him for a while, and then I had
to go back again, and afterwards I left him again.
6886. How much were you due him? Was it as much as £10?-I
don't think it was so much as that, but I don't remember.
6887. Was it not quite reasonable that he should ask you for
payment of your debt?-Certainly; but I had no money, and I
could not give it. He had a right to ask for his debt, as everybody
has; and I had a right to pay it, if I had been able.
6888. Did you leave Williamson because you were in his debt
too?-No; the old man died, and then this man broke. I was
serving him after that, but he was not able to give me my supplies,
either clothes or meal, and therefore I left him.
6889. Were you in his debt?-I was due him a little.
6890. But you did not leave him because you were in his debt?-
No; it was only because he could not give me supplies.
6891. And you get your supplies now from Mr. Smith?-Yes; I
have got them from him for the last two years, when I have been
fishing for him.
6892. Do you generally get a balance in cash at the end of the
year?-No; I have not settled with him this year, and I don't know
yet what I am to get.
6893. Had you a balance to get last year?-No; I was nearly clear
with him.
6894. But there was a balance against you?-Yes; but it was not
much-a mere trifle.
6895. Do you get cash from him during the season if you want
it?-No; I will get anything he has in his shop to supply me with,
either meat or anything else; but cash is seldom to be got.
6896. Why is that?-I don't know. I suppose it is because the man
has not got much himself. Cash is not often very plentiful with
him.
6897. Have you often asked for cash?-Not often. I may have
asked for a shilling or two at a time. I could get anything else he
had in his shop, but money was a thing that was seldom or never
got.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE PETERSON,
examined.
6898. You are a fisherman, and the son of a previous witness?-I
am.
6899. Whom do you fish for?-I fished first for Mr. Anderson for
two years.
6900. Whom do you fish for now?-For Mr. Joseph Leask,
Lerwick, at the Faroe fishing.
6901. When did you give over going to the home-fishing?-In
1868.
6902. You fished for Mr. Anderson then?-Yes.
6903. Had you an account in his shop?-Yes.
6904. When you settled up at the end of the year, had you a
balance to receive in cash?-Yes; in both years when I fished
for him.
6905. Did you get money in the course of the season if you wanted
it?-No.
6906. Did you ask for it?-Yes.
6907. Was it refused to you?-Yes.
6908. Why?-I don't know.
6909. But you got as much goods as you wanted?-Yes.
6910. What was the balance you received in cash at the end of
these years?-I don't remember how much it was the first year;
but in the second year I had 10s. to get.
6911. In the Faroe fishing you are paid at the end of the year
too?-Yes.
6912. Are you paid in cash?-Yes; if we want it, we are paid in
cash.
6913. Have you an account in Mr. Leask's shop?-Yes. I have an
account the whole time, from the time I go out until I come back
and go again.
6914. Is that account closed when you come back from the
fishing?-Yes; I have no account after that.
6915. Is that because you live at a distance from Lerwick during
the winter?-I suppose that is the reason.
6916. What is your account for?-For tea, coffee, butter, pork, and
such things as that.
6917. Have you got a pass-book?-No, I asked for [Page 167] one
in 1870, but they refused to mark anything into a pass-book, and I
never asked for it again.
6918. Who refused it?-The people in the shop; and they did not
give a pass-book to any one more than to me.
6919. Was it refused to you in Mr. Leask's shop in Lerwick?-
Yes.
6920. Did they give you any reason for refusing?-They thought it
too much bother, I suppose. I knew of no other reason.
6921. Were the things you got for your own use at the fishing?-
Yes.
6922. Did you take them all to the fishing with you?-Yes; we buy
cloth and all other things for ourselves. We are only supplied with
bread.
6923. What you got from the shop was what you call small
stores?-Yes.
6924. Did you get anything from Mr. Leask's shop except your
small stores and your outfit?-Yes; I bought some meal and took
it home.
6925. Did you do that more than once?-I bought some for myself,
and I bought some when I went out first in spring, and sent it
home.
6926. Were these the things that you wanted to have entered in the
pass-book?-Yes; these things of my own small stores and clothes,
and anything I required.
6927. Did you get these articles at many different times in the
course of the year, or did you just get them once or twice when
you came home?-I got them twice.
6928. How often does your boat generally come home from the
Faroe fishing in the course of the season?-We generally make
two voyages; last year we made three.
6929. And you would be getting something additional each time
you came home?-Yes. All we require is small stores for every
voyage.
6930. What amount of the price of your fish did you get at settling
time in these two years when you were at the Faroe fishing?-Last
year I got an account for £17, and this year it was £22.
6931. That was the whole price of your fish?-Yes.
6932. But how much had you to get in money at the end of the
year on the whole of your account?-I had £16 odds to get last
year, and this year I had £10.
6933. Was that all paid to you in money at the settlement?-If I
had liked to take it all in money I could have got it, but I did not
take it all. I left some money in the book in Mr. Leask's shop.
6934. Then your account is still standing in his book?-Yes.
6935. What was your reason for sending meal home to your people
from Lerwick?-I suppose the reason was, because they could not
get a supply at home from Mr. Anderson, whom they were serving.
6936. Was that about the time when your father left off fishing for
him?-Yes, that was about the time.
6937. Did you ever work as a beach boy here?-No; I was always
at school before I went to the fishing.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, JOHN SANDISON,
examined.
6938. Are you a fisherman?-I am.
6939. Have you got some land?-Yes; I live on a farm in
Hillswick along with my father. The land we have belongs to
the Busta estate.
6940. Do you go to the home fishing?-Yes.
6941. For whom do you fish?-For Mr. Anderson. I have fished
for him and his brother for upwards of twenty years. I went to the
fishing when I was a little boy. I never was at the beach.
6942. Do you settle every year for your fishing?-Yes; about the
middle of November.
6943. You have an account of your own in Mr. Anderson's
ledger?-Yes.
6944. Do you get supplies of goods from his shop?-Yes.
6945. Do you get your goods anywhere else?-Yes, occasionally.
6946. Where?-Perhaps from Laurence Smith or from Arthur
Harrison, just as may suit my convenience.
6947. What quantity do you get at these different shops? Do you
get more at one than at another?-Yes; I get most from Mr.
Anderson's.
6948. Do you get the same kind of goods there as at Smith's and
Harrison's?-Yes, much the same.
6949. Then what is your reason for going to them?-I have had
little employment from Smith for the last two years, which led me
to take a few supplies from him.
6950. Did you fish for him?-No; I was employed by him at other
kinds of work-principally boat-building during the winter and
spring.
6951. Have you an account with Mr. Smith for boat-building?-
Yes.
6952. Do you take goods in settlement of that account?-Yes; but
it is just because I think it right myself. I am in no way compelled
to do so.
6953. But you keep an account with Smith, and the goods you
get are put on one side of it, and the amount of your payment
for boat-building is put on the other?-Yes; until the time of
settlement.
6954. What is the time of settlement for boat-building?-Much
about the same time as for the other-some time in November or
December.
6955. Do you get money whenever you ask it for your
boat-building?-Yes; if I was to ask for money, I would get it.
6956. Do you get money during the season from Mr. Anderson for
your fishing when you ask for it?-Yes; I never was refused
money at any time.
6957. Did you ever ask for it except at settling time?-Yes.
6958. How much did you ask for?-Small sums.
6959. You said the reason why you went to Laurence Smith for
some of your goods was, because you were employed by him: is it
a general sort of understanding that when a man is employed by a
merchant, he deals with him for his goods?-To a certain extent it
is.
6960. He is not altogether bound to do it?-No, not in my
experience.
6961. But is it thought fair and proper that he should take a certain
quantity of his goods from that merchant?-If a merchant gives a
man employment, and he has the goods as good and as cheap as
they can be got elsewhere, it is generally thought that the man
should take his goods from him.
6962. Would it not be better to get your payments in cash at
shorter periods, rather than to have the whole of your money paid
to you at the end of the year?-I don't know.
6963. Do you not forget what quantity of goods you have got from
the merchant in the course of the year?-Oh no. We can easily
remember what goods we have had; and besides, we generally
keep accounts of our own; at least I do so.
6964. Have you got a pass-book in which are entered all the goods
you receive from Mr. Anderson?-Yes [produces pass-book].
6965. How long have you kept that passbook?-I think it is from
1865 or 1866 to the present time.
6966. Is that just a copy of the account that is entered in Mr.
Anderson's book?-Yes.
6967. I see here an entry of a payment to Mr. Inkster: what was
that for?-I asked Mr. Anderson to make it.
6968. Were you in Mr. Anderson's debt at the time?-I don't think
I was.
6969. Is there any entry here showing how you are settled with at
the end of the year?-Yes [showing]; the balance in 1870 was £14,
8s. 7d.
6970. You live with your father?-Yes.
6971. And you take meal from Mr. Anderson for the supply of
your father's family?-Yes, at times, when they require it.
6972. Is the meal which you get there of good [Page 168]
quality?-Yes; it is the same as we can get anywhere else in the
country.
6973. Have you compared the price of the meal which you get
there with the prices at which you can get it elsewhere?-Yes.
6974. Have you got meal from Lerwick?-Yes; and when the cost
of carriage came to be added to it, it was much the same price as at
Mr. Anderson's.
6975. Have you tried that more than once?-Yes.
6976. Is the flour of good quality?-Yes; the flour is not bad, and
the price is just about the same as at Lerwick after adding
something for carriage.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, LAURENCE ANDERSON,
examined.
6977. Are you a fisherman?-Yes; I have been a fisherman for
some time.
6978. Have you got any land, or do you live with your father?-I
am living with my father.
6979. Who do you fish for?-I have fished for Laurence Smith for
three years.
6980. Do you settle with him every year in winter?-Yes.
6981. Have you an account with him for the articles which you get
from his shop?-Yes.
6982. Have you generally a balance to get in cash at the end of the
year?-Yes. If there is anything coming to me then, I get it.
6983. When did you settle with him last?-I settled for last year
about two months ago.
6984. How much was due to you then?-I was due him a little; but
it was not much.
6985. Were you due him anything when you settled for the year
before?-I was.
6986. And the year before that?-No; the year before that I was
clear. I had something to get the year before.
6987. When you have anything to get at the end of the year, is it
paid to you in money?-No; I have not got any money.
6988. When there was a balance due to you three years ago, did
you not get it in money?-No, I did not ask it.
6989. It was left standing, and was carried into the next
account?-Yes.
6990. And you got goods for it as you required them?-Yes.
6991. Is it a usual thing for the men here to get their balances in
money?-No; they don't get them in money.
6992. How do they get them?-They get supplies, and perhaps
they may get a little money.
6993. Given after settlement?-Yes.
6994. Have you a pass-book?-Yes [produces it].
6995. That book commences in 1870. Had you no pass-book
before?-No.
6996. Would you not be better to be paid in cash for the whole of
what was due to you?-Yes; but I have never got the cash.
6997. But could you not have got it in cash, instead of taking all
these goods, if you had liked?-No. I have been a poor man now
for the time that is past, and I have never had the money, and I
could not get it.
6998. You required to get supplies and you could not pay for them
in money?-Yes. I always got what wanted from this man; he did
not keep anything back, but the money I did not have to get. I did
not have money, and I could not get it.
6999. Did you begin to work as a beach boy?-Yes. I was two
years at Hillyar fishing station first, and then at Ollaberry.
7000. Was that for Mr. Anderson?-No; it was for Mr. George
Henry.
7001. What did you get as a beach boy?-I got 20s. the first year;
and I was there three months.
7002. Was that as long ago as ten years?-Yes, it will be ten years
since I first went to it.
7003. How was that 20s. paid to you?-I just got what I required
from him at the time.
7004. Had you any money to get at the end of the first year?-No,
not at the end of the first year; but the second year I had 10s. to
get, and I got it.
7005. How many years were you a beach boy?-Five years.
7006. During that time you always had an account with your
employer?-Yes.
7007. Were you always with the same employer?-No; I was two
years with Mr. Henry, and three years with Mr. Anderson.
7008. Had you always a little balance of money to get at the end of
the year from Mr. Anderson?-No. The first year I was clear; the
second year I was due very little, but the third year I was due
something. Then, the first year I was at the haaf, I fished for Mr.
Anderson.
7009. Could you have gone to fish for anybody else that year if you
had liked?-Yes; but I made a bargain that year to fish for him.
7010. Was it because you were in his debt that you made a bargain
to fish for him?-Yes. I had nothing for supplies, and I got my
supplies the first year from him.
7011. Would you have got your supplies from Mr. Anderson and
still have been at liberty to engage with anybody else for the
haaf?-No.
7012. Why?-I did not engage with any other body that year.
7013. But would you have been at liberty to have done that if you
had liked?-I don't know. If I had been clear with Mr. Anderson,
I might have had my liberty.
7014. You thought you were not at liberty because, you were not
clear?-Yes.
7015. Were you told you were not at liberty to engage with
anybody after you had got your supplies from Mr. Anderson?-No.
7016. You just wanted the supplies, and you went and engaged
yourself to him?-Yes. Of course, I had to get my supplies, and I
just got them from the man that I was to engage with.
7017. But nobody asked you to engage for the haaf?-Yes.
7018. Is it usual for men to be engaged for the haaf fishing so early
as November?-Yes; most of them are engaged then.
7019. Although the haaf fishing does not begin until six months
afterwards?-Yes.
7020. What is their reason for engaging so early in the season?-
Most of time, when they are settling up, engage for a new year.
They make up their crews then.
7021 Is it more convenient for the men to make up their crews
then?-Yes.
7022. Why?-Because they know then who are to go together in
the rising year.
7023 Do they get supplies more readily from the merchants if
they make up their crews at that time and engage to fish for the
following year?-Yes, when they are in debt.
7024. Is that one reason why the men sometimes make up their
crews and make their engagements so soon?-I don't know, but I
believe there is something in that.
7025. Was that the reason why you engaged so early that first year
when you went to the fishing?-It was because I was in debt that
year when I left the beach.
7026. Have you been in debt in other years?-Yes. I was in debt
to Mr. Anderson at settling time for the first year I fished for him.
I left him because I was in debt, and could not get supplies.
7027. In what year was that?-I think it is about six years ago
7028. What was the amount of your debt?-I believe it was about
£5 odds.
7029. Is it a usual thing for a man to leave the service of a
merchant because he is in his debt?-I don't know; but I could
not get supplies from him, [Page 169] and as I had to get them
somewhere, I went to another merchant for them.
7030. Have you paid up that £5?-I have not.
7031. Have you been asked to do so?-I was summoned once.
7032. Did you go to court about it?-I did not.
7033. Did you hear nothing more about it?-Of course, I paid a
little of it after I got the summons.
7034. How much did you pay then?-About 12s.
7035. How long ago is that?-It will be three years ago now.
7036. Are you going to pay the rest of it?-I don't know. I would
never have refused to pay it if I had been able to pay.
7037. Do you live with your father?-Yes; but my father is a poor
man, and I am the same, and I have not made much money.
7038. Is it a common thing for a man to leave the employment
of a merchant when he is a little bit in his debt, and cannot get
supplies?-Of course I had to leave Mr. Anderson.
7039. But is that a common thing?-I don't know.
7040. Have you known many men who have done it?-No; there
are not many that I know of. I could not live, and for that reason I
had to leave Mr. Anderson. I gave myself up to fish for him next
season if he wanted it, but he told me as much as that he would not
have me, and that I must look out for myself, and I did so.
7041. When was that?-Three years ago.
7042. Did you offer to go back to him then?-I offered to stay
with him, and I went and asked for a little supply, but he would not
grant it, and for that reason I had to leave him.
7043. Was the reason why he would not accept you, because you
could not work without supply, or was there any other reason?-I
cannot say exactly what the reason was.
7044. What did he say about it?-He told me that I was to make
the best of myself that I could, and did so. I left him and fished for
the merchant I am now with.
7045. You were a little above £5 in debt then?-Yes; between £5
and £6.
7046. Had you been as much in debt for years before?-No. I had
never been in debt before I went to Mr. Anderson. I was three
years with him at the fish-curing; and I was a little behind the first
year I went to the haaf, but it was not a great deal.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 11, 1872, ALEXANDER
SANDISON, examined.
7047. You are the father of a previous witness?-I am.
7048. Did you hear the evidence which your son gave?-Yes.
7049. Do you settle for your fishing at the end of the year in the
same way that he does?-When I was going to the fishing I did.
7050. You don't go to the fishing now?-No; I have not gone for
the last three years. I am too old.
7051. For whom did you fish when you were at it?-The last time
I was at the fishing it was for Mr. Anderson.
7052. Had you generally a balance in cash to get at the end of the
year?-Occasionally.
7053. Was there oftener a balance to get, or a balance against
you?-There was oftener a balance to get if the seasons turned
out good, or if anything occurred to make them good; but when
anything took place to render the season a bad one then there was
something due and it was put against me.
7054. When you were in debt to Mr. Anderson, was there any
necessity for you to engage to him for the following year?-No.
7055. Might you have engaged to anybody you liked?-Yes. I had
my freedom; there was no compulsion.
7056. Did you generally engage to him?-Yes.
7057. Was there any other person to whom you could have sold
your fish?-Yes; provided it had been necessary for me to have
done so; but I saw no occasion for it.
7058. You never wished to do that?-No; not in the least.
7059. Do you think it would be any advantage to the fishermen to
have a price fixed for their fish at the beginning of the season, so
that they might know what they were to get?-In some seasons it
might be, but with the fall and rise in the markets it is so uncertain.
It might be a gain or it might be a loss; they could not tell until the
time came for settlement.
7060. I suppose the fishermen have nothing to do with fixing the
price of the fish?-No; it has not been customary for them to have
anything to do with that.
7061. It has been the practice to leave it altogether to the fish
merchant?-Yes; so far as ever I knew.
7062. Are there any complaints about the way in which the price is
fixed?-There certainly are some men who make it grievance of
it; but they are men who would not be satisfied if the thing were
done in any other way.
7063. What do you think about it yourself?-I cannot say.
7064. Have you no opinion about it at all?-Very little. It does
not concern me much. I have got too old now to be able to do
anything in the way of changing it.
7065. Do any of your family knit?-Yes; but that is it thing I don't
interfere with.
7066. Is it usual for the father of a family not to interfere with his
wife and daughters' account for hosiery?-They manage their own
affairs and their accounts themselves and we never interfere with
them in any way.
7067. Do they sometimes help to keep the house?-Yes; in every
way they can.
7068. But do they sometimes help with their hosiery to provide
for the house?-Yes; occasionally, when it falls in their way.
7069. In this part of the country I understand they get provisions
for their hosiery?-Yes; to a certain extent, when required.
7070. But you have nothing to do with their accounts or their
books?-No; I have no concern with them. They see their own
books and are satisfied with them.
7071. Does a man's wife keep her own book for hosiery and settle
it herself?-Yes.
7072. Is it the same with the eggs?-Yes.
7073. The wife takes the eggs and sells them, and puts them into
her own account?-Yes. She takes them away and brings back
any stuff she wishes to get for them. That is the usual practice,
and it has been so all my days.
7074. How are the people paid for their eggs? Are they paid in
goods?-If they choose they get bread, tea, sugar, or anything else
they want; or if they are not pleased to take that, they can get the
price.
7075. Would it not be better to get the money for them?-It might
be, if there was any need for it; but if they are requiring the goods,
I don't see any use for taking the price and going to another shop
with it.
7076. Then, with regard to the fishing, you say that the man who
has money to get will get it, but the man who does not have it to
get will not get it?-I fished last for Mr. Anderson, that is three
years ago, and I have seen me have a good deal to get; but a man
who had no cash due to him could not get it. I have been a little in
debt sometimes, it was not much, but I could not get any cash until
I paid off my debt. I could have got anything I wanted out of the
shop, provided it was in small quantities; and I should have been
sorry to look for anything more until the book was clear. When
that was done, then I could get it to my satisfaction.
7077. When your book was not clear, would you have considered
yourself bound to go to fish for Mr. Anderson until it was clear?-
Yes.
7078. You thought it was fair that you should fish for him until
your debt was paid?-Yes.
[Page 170]
7079. Did it often happen, in the course of your
experience, that you were a little behind in that way?-Yes.
7080. And at such times you always thought it right to go to fish
for him?-Yes; so that I might clear it off by my fishing.
7081. Were you ever objected to for selling your fish away from
Mr. Anderson?-No.
7082. Did you not require to do that sometimes, in order to get a
little cash?-No.
7083. Do you think the fishermen are as well off now as they used
to be long ago, or are they better off?-They are much better off
now than they were in my young days, because at that time
married men who had families only got from 4s. to 6s. for their
fish; while young men who were not married, and did not require
it so much, got 7s. or 6s. 6d. or 6s. Now they get an equal price,
and I think 6s. or 7s. is a good price. When the fishing turns out to
be successful, it pays them very well.
7084. Have you always been satisfied with the quality of the things
which you got from your fish-merchant's store?-Yes.
7085. Did you get anything at all at any other store when you were
fishing?-No; but I was only a short time at the fishing. I was at
sea for fifty years, sailing to Davis Straits and all round the globe,
and I only gave that up when I could not go any longer.
7086. How many years were you fishing at the haaf?-Only four
years.
7087. You were a sailor in the merchant service before that?-
Yes.
7088. Did you go to Greenland too?-Yes; I went twenty-seven
voyages to Davis Straits.
7089. Where did you ship for that?-From Lerwick.
7090. Who engaged you there?-There were various agents. I
generally engaged with Mr. Hay. I think I went ten or twelve
voyages for him.
7091. When did you last go to the whale fishing?-I think it was
about 1850 or 1851.
7092. How were the men's wages paid then?-It was by so much
per month and an allowance of oil-money besides.
7093. Did you get an advance when you shipped?-Yes.
7094. And did you get an outfit from the agent who engaged
you?-If you required it, it was there for you; and if not, you got
your advance, and could take it where you pleased.
7095. Did you generally get your outfit from the agent in Lerwick
who engaged you?-Yes.
7096. When you came back from your Greenland voyage, in what
way did you settle?-Those who lived at a distance would get £2
or £3 if the voyage had been good, and they had money to get; and
then they would go home and come back at Martinmas to settle
with the agent. There was an account kept against them in the
book which they had to settle at that time.
7097. What quantity of goods did you generally have in your
account with the agent at Lerwick?-The greatest part of them
were sea-going clothes.
7098. You did not generally get supplies from him for your
families?-No; not very often.
7099. In those times did you ever get your outfit from any person
except the agent who engaged you?-No; we always got it from
the agent who engaged us. We could change the agent if we
thought we could make any better of it, but they were nearly all
about the same.
<Adjourned>.
Hillswick, Northmaven: Friday, January 12, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie.
DAVID GREIG, examined.
7100. You have been for a long time in the employment of Messrs.
Hay & Co.?-I have been with them for nearly twenty-three
years-first in their Lerwick house, and I have been manager for
them at North Roe for ten years.
7101. North Roe is part of the Gossaburgh estate?-Yes.
7102. Do you manage the fishings on that estate in Northmaven
parish, as well as those in Yell?-There is a separate management
in Yell, so far as the rents are concerned. In Yell there is part of
the estate on the west side of the island, and part on the east side. I
have nothing to do with the fishermen on the east side, only with
those on the west side.
7103. The fishermen on the west side deliver their fish where?-
At Feideland.
7104. That is one of your stations?-Yes.
7105. You have prepared a note of the tenants or holdings upon
the estate, in which the number is stated to be 56: is that in this
parish only, or in Yell also?-These are the farms or holdings in
this parish.
7106. Are they entirely under your management?-Yes.
7107. The note also states that the gross rental last year was
£193, 7s. 6d., of which £17 is for Hay & Co., and the gross rental
charged to tenants is £176, 7s. 6d.?-Yes.
7108. The £17 is allowed for land held by Hay & Co.
themselves?-Yes; land and islands belonging to the estate
on which they graze.
7109. Do you know the amount of the tack duty payable by Hay &
Co. for that estate?-Not exactly. I think it is somewhere about
£130 or £140; but then they have to pay all public burdens, and
they have no claim against the proprietor for repairs on the
property. They do all the repairs at their own expense, and keep
up the property.
7110. So that it is not calculated that upon the rents payable by the
fishermen, Hay & Co. have any surplus?-I don't think it. When
the expense of management is taken off, I don't think they will
have anything.
7111. I understand the fishermen hold their land subject to the
condition of fishing during summer for Hay & Co.?-It is usually
understood so.
7112. And I presume that is the advantage which Hay & Co.
chiefly derive from their tack?-It was with a view to that that
they entered into it.
7113. What is the average rent payable by each fisherman?-The
average rental charged to fishermen is 3 guineas for each holding.
The highest is £6, and the lowest is £2, 7s. I may say that the rents
on that estate have not been altered for over 50 years, while other
estates have been raised very considerably. The land there is, I
think, much cheaper than it is throughout Shetland generally.
7114. Do you think the rents would bear an increase?-In
comparison with other places, a very considerable increase.
7115. How many of the tenants fished last year in the summer
fishing at North Roe?-Thirty-three.
7116. Of the rest, how many were unfit for fishing, and how many
were engaged in other fishings?-I think there were three tenants
fishing to other curers.
7117. In the summer fishing?-Yes; there were two at Faroe and
two or three, two at least, sailing south. Others were employed as
fish-curers and tradesmen, and in other capacities.
[Page 171]
7118. There were three fishing for other curers: was that by
permission or sufferance?-By sufferance, not by permission.
7119. No objection was taken to them doing so?-No; and no
consequences have followed.
7120. Was that about an average number of men fishing for other
curers, or was it greater or less than usual?-I think there have
been fewer in some years; and in some years I think there have
been none at all.
7121. You employed nine deep-sea boats at North Roe?-Yes, in
this parish.
7122. And you had also some crews from Yell?-Yes; there were
four deep-sea boats from Yell.
7123. There were also some small boats?-Yes.
7124. What distinction is there between the small boats and the
large ones?-There is no difference in the fishings to which they
go. They fish for the same sort of fish; but the small boats do not
carry so large a crew, and the boats themselves are not so large.
Generally these small boats belong to the men themselves; the
large boats are hired from Messrs. Hay & Co.
7125. Is the boat hire the same with you as in other places?-No;
it is less. In some places they charge 50s. and as high as £3; but in
our case it has never been above 48s.
7126. That includes the lease of the boat for the season?-Yes.
7127. What else?-Nothing but the material belonging to the boat:
she is made seaworthy, and everything belonging to the boat is
supplied,-sails, oars, cordage, compass, and everything else.
7128. How are the lines provided?-The lines are given to the
men, on their own account, at the usual selling price, and they are
allowed to pay for them in three years.
7129. Are there any other articles which are furnished to the men
as part of their outfit for the summer fishing?-I don't think there
is anything else. Of course they have their sea clothing, and
provisions and things of that kind, to get when they engage for the
fishing.
7130. Are all these usually or invariably supplied by Hay & Co.
from their shop?-No; not invariably. I have known one or two
cases where the parties have sent to Lerwick and bought their
goods there; but those parties who have done so have found it was
not a profitable thing, and have come back to me again.
7131. I suppose the carriage was expensive?-There was the
carriage and the inconvenience of sending for them, and they had
no profit by doing it.
7132. Do you mean that the price at Lerwick was as high as at
North Roe?-Yes; we generally endeavour to charge about the
Lerwick prices, only adding something for the carriage.
7133. How many fishermen were employed by you last year
altogether?-There were 98 altogether; 28 from Yell and 70
from Northmaven, in 16 boats.
7134. Have you made any note from your books of the total
amount of the earnings of these men?-I think that last year it
was approximately about £1220.
7135. Is that the total amount of their earnings from fishing, or
does it include sums due to the men from any other source?-That
is their earnings from the fishing alone.
7136. It does not include any stock that may have been purchased
from them, or their payment for any other sort of work which they
may have done for you?-No. It is taken from the book in which I
keep the private accounts against Hay & Co. I have to charge
them with that sum for the fish bought and paid for, in the ordinary
course of business.
7137. Have you got your books here?-Yes. I was not called upon
by my citation to bring them, but I have brought them.
7138. You were not called upon by your citation to bring them,
because it was thought that, in consequence of the distance you
had to come, it might cause you an unreasonable amount of
inconvenience. Is it from these books that you have made up this
statement?-Not from this book [showing]. It has been made up
from the statement kept in a private ledger with Hay & Co. It
could, however, be got from the books I have brought by going
over the accounts.
7139. You have also made a note of the average earnings of the
men?-Yes. It will be a little over £12.
7140. Does that apply only to the 98 men you have mentioned?-
Yes.
7141. Or does it also include the earnings of the boys and men
employed in curing?-No; it does not include that. It is merely the
fishermen.
7142. You say in your note that it includes men and boys?-Yes;
there is a fee'd boy in each boat, and he is included in the general
average. The fees are paid to the boys by the fishermen off their
earnings.
7143. Of the 98, how many will be boys so fee'd?-There were 8
in North Roe, and 3 in Yell; that is 11 fee'd boys out of the 98.
7144. What is the amount of the fee of each boy?-I think from £2
to 50s.; and then they have an allowance to carry two lines or
buchts, and they get the fish caught by them. They take their
chance of the fishing of these two lines.
7145. Do they sell these fish to you?-Yes.
7146. Will the takes from these lines be anything like equal to the
fees paid to the boys?-I think in or two cases this year, the lads'
fishing was more than their fee.
7147. Have the men themselves private lines of that kind?-I don't
think so.
7148. I was told elsewhere that such a practice sometimes
existed?-Perhaps it may, but I don't think it exists in this part
of the country.
7149. Then, from £1220 as the earnings of the fishing, I suppose
you would deduct £18 or £20 for the nine boys?-Yes, or about
£20 or £25; I think that would be enough. That would leave the
average for the men much higher than I have put it there.
7150. It would leave about £13, 8s. 6d. as the average earnings of
the men?-Yes.
7151. How much was the cash paid at settlement?-£553 and
£170 additional approximately for rent.
7152. That was entered in account to the credit of the men?-Yes;
that is taken off their fishings.
7153. So that the average amount paid in cash would be about
£8?-Yes; and if you deduct about £2 for each man for boat hire
and provisions through the year, then the difference between the
£8 and what is paid at the stations would give what is supplied to
their families during the season.
7154. Adding about £2 for the amount of boat hire, lines, and the
supplies at the fishing station, that makes the £10, and the balance
of £3, 8s. 6d. consists of supplies to the families during the
year?-Yes.
7155. Are most of these men's families resident near your shop at
North Roe?-I think the farthest distant is about three miles; and
these are very few, only about half-a-dozen families. The rest are
all quite near.
7156. Do the families have many cash transactions at your shop in
addition to those that enter the account?-I think so.
7157. Have you any idea what becomes of the remainder of the
money that is paid in cash at the end of the year?-I have often to
transmit cash to Hay & Co. which has been received at the shop
through the year, being returned to it for purchases.
7158. That shows that there is a considerable amount of the cash
spent in your shop after being paid to the men at settlement?-
Yes.
7159. Have you any notion of what that might amount to in a
single year?-It varies very much.
7160. Would it be £100 or £200?-No; I don't think it is so much
as that.
7161. Are there other shops in your neighbourhood where the men
and their families are in the habit of dealing for their groceries?-
They deal at several other shops. There is one small shop, Mr.
John Inkster's, quite near ours. The next is Mr. Laurenson's, about
three miles off; and the people sometimes go to Ollaberry and
Hillswick.
[Page 172]
7162. You have reason to believe that some of their cash receipts
go to these shops?-I think that is sometimes the case, and some
of their payments again come back to me-I mean that some of
those who are receiving cash from Mr. Laurenson and others come
back to me in turn.
7163. Can you say how many of the 98 men whom you employ are
in debt to Hay & Co. at the end of the season?-I don't think there
are six overdrawn accounts.
7164. But that has been after a favourable year?-Yes; it has been
a very favourable year, and that is a smaller number than usual.
7165. Do you find that men who are in your debt are generally
inclined to fish for you in the following year?-I have never had
any difficulty in that way.
7166. Do they generally come to you as a matter of course and
engage for the following season?-As a rule, I have endeavoured
to keep the men out of debt as much as possible and I have always
found it to be the best principle.
7167. But do the men who are in your debt generally come to you
to fish for the following year, in order to wipe off their debt?-I
don't think that in my ten years experience a single man has left
the employment in consequence of being in debt.
7168. Have you in some years had a much larger number than six
men in your debt at settlement?-Yes. I could not give the exact
numbers; but there have been much larger numbers than that.
7169. Perhaps three or four times as many?-I should think so.
7170. The greater number of the men at the station?-No; but
perhaps one-half of them may have been in debt in an
unfavourable year.
7171. Was that long ago?-We had a turn of unfavourable years I
think four or five years ago.
7172. Did their indebtedness sometimes run over a series of
years?-In two or three cases it has done so.
7173. But not in many cases?-No. I can only think of three cases
just now.
7174. Did these men continue to fish for you until their debt was
cleared off?-Yes.
7175. Do you remember the amount of the largest debt of that kind
you have ever had in your books?-No; I have never had occasion
to take that out. My inventory is taken in the month of May, when
half the year is gone, and when half the debts are incurred, and
then they have got considerable supplies for the rising season.
7176. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes.
7177. Are there two prices paid to the women for it?-Yes. For
the past two or three years the price has been 4s. 6d. in goods or
4s. in cash, with a royalty course to the proprietor.
7178. You have to pay a royalty to the proprietor besides what you
pay to the women?-Messrs. Hay & Co. are the lessees of the
shores, and they reserve that right to themselves, the same as if
they were the proprietors.
7179. Is there a royalty paid by the gatherers to Hay & Co.?-It is
taken off the price; because if the shores belonged to anybody else
they would have to pay it.
7180. Who would have to pay it?-Hay & Co. I think it is
generally understood that the buyer of the kelp shall pay the
royalty to the proprietor.
7181. But Hay & Co. are not both proprietors and lessees?-They
are in the same position as the proprietor, and they buy the kelp
too.
7182. How does the royalty enter your accounts?-It does not
appear in the accounts at all. The price paid to the makers is just
4s. 6d. in goods or 4s. in cash.
7183. Do you mean that an ordinary lessee would have to pay a
royalty to the proprietor in addition to the cost of the purchase of
the kelp?-I mean that if Hay & Co. were not buying the kelp
themselves, but were letting the shores to some other party, that
party would be accountable to Hay & Co. for the royalty.
7184. Therefore you don't allow for any royalty as forming part of
the tack duty payable by Hay & Co. to the proprietor?-No. I
think it is understood or expressed in their lease that they should
have the kelp shores.
7185. Then the profit made on sales of kelp by Hay & Co. is larger
than that of other lessees by the amount of the royalty usually paid
by them?-Yes.
7186. Why do you fix a different price in goods and in cash for
kelp?-Because I think the utmost value is given for the kelp
which they are warranted in giving, when it is paid for in goods,
and they have a profit on the goods; but when it is paid for in cash
they cannot be expected to receive the kelp and give the full value
for it without having any profit on it.
7187. Is there no profit on the kelp which you buy at 4s. per cwt. in
cash?-Yes; there is a profit upon that; but if we paid 4s. 6d. in
cash for it, then there would be no profit.
7188. But you give them 4s. 6d. worth of goods for because you
have a profit on the goods?-Yes.
7189. Is there no profit on the kelp when it is bought at 4s. 6d.?-
There would not be any, taking the royalty into consideration.
7190. How many tons of kelp do you sell?-I only took a note of it
for last year, when there were twelve tons.
7191. At what rate was it sold?-I did not get the account sales,
but I understood the price paid in Shetland, free on board, was £5,
10s. per ton.
7192. That is 5s. 6d. per cwt. Will it take 1s. per cwt. to put it on
board ship?-No.
7193. Where is it shipped?-The kelp I take is shipped in one
of Hay & Co.'s vessels, carried to Simbister, landed there, and
re-shipped again.
7194. By free on board, do you mean free on board at
Simbister?-Yes.
7195. You think that shipment and re-shipment would not cost 1s.
per cwt.?-I don't think it would.
7196. Therefore there would be some margin of profit upon the
kelp bought at 4s. 6d. and sold at 5s. 6d.?-If you buy the kelp at
4s. 6d. and pay 1s. of royalty, then it is actually costing you 5s. 6d.,
and there is no margin left for the expense of receiving and
shipping and transhipping again.
7197. But I understood you to say that there was no royalty
actually paid by Hay & Co.?-Neither there is; but they have the
same right to receive that royalty, or to calculate upon that royalty
as if it were paid, they being in the position of proprietors of the
property.
7198. You have said that the amount of cash paid to the fishermen
at settlement was about £553, and that the average amount due by
each man for goods to his family would be £3, 8s. 6d.: would there
be no cash advances to them during the season?-Yes.
7199. These would be included in that sum?-Yes.
7200. Would the amount of these advances be material?-I am not
prepared to say how much they would be. It would depend upon
the necessities of the man. I think in one case they amounted to
£12, 9s. 6d.
7201. Was that sum paid in cash before settlement?-Yes.
7202. That would be nearly the amount of his total earnings?-It
would be nearly the amount of the average earnings; but that man
had very high earnings.
7203. I believe you have made some calculation as to the total
amount of summer fish bought: what is it?-During the ten years I
have been manager at North Roe, there have been summer fish
bought to the value of about £7000; and during the same time the
cash paid at settlement has been about £4420. That includes the
rents of tenants who have fished; but it does not include the cash
advanced to them through the year, which in some years has been
pretty considerable. The following is a statement for the last four
years, of the value of the fishings, and the amount paid in cash at
settlement:
Cash Paid at
Value of Fishings. Settlement.
1868 About £400 £290
1869 704 335
1870 1003 540
1871 1220 723
[Page 173]
7204. Is there any winter fishing at North Roe?-There is what we
call home fishing for nine months of the year in small boats.
7205. But the proper home fishing terminates about August or
September?-The haaf fishing terminates about 12th August.
After that the men immediately resume fishing in their small
boats, and continue it until the middle of May next year.
7206. Are these the small boats you mentioned before as belonging
to the men themselves?-Yes.
7207. I think you said that of these there were only two at North
Roe?-That was in the summer time; but almost every man on the
property has a share of a small boat for the winter fishing.
7208. Are these boats generally purchased from Hay & Co.?-I
think since I came there they have generally been purchased from
them, but not altogether.
7209. Are they paid for by instalments?-Our bargain for them is,
that they are to be paid in three years, and during these three years
they stand in separate account in my books.
7210. Is there a separate boat book?-They are entered in the
general ledger, but kept in a separate account; and at the expiry
of the three years, if it is not paid off, it ought properly to be put to
the man's private account, and to become part of his shop account.
That is the rule, although, in some cases, I have not carried it out
to the extent of carrying it to the man's private account at the close
of three years.
7211. Do you generally find that that boat account is paid off
within the three years?-No; it is frequently continued longer.
7212. In what way are the fish disposed of that are taken in that
small-boat fishing in winter?-They are sold when the men come
ashore. I tell the men what price will be paid; and if they agree to
take that price, receive the fish and pay for them every time they
are delivered.
7213. Is that paid to them in cash?-They are at liberty to take
cash, or to buy goods, or do anything they like; but we never leave
these transactions unsettled.
7214. In point of fact, is it generally cash that passes, or do the
men take what goods they want at the shop?-In many cases, I
think in most cases, if the fishing is small, perhaps they want as
much, or pretty near the value, when they come ashore, out of the
shop in goods for their houses; but if they have been having a few
days' successful fishing, then they take the cash when they don't
require the goods. They are not asked to take the goods; and they
are not required to do it in any way.
7215. Are they bound to sell these fish to you in the same way as
their summer fish?-I think that is understood; but there have been
many exceptions that I have known.
7216. Are there more exceptions in the case of this small-boat
fishing than of the summer fishing?-I think so.
7217. Have you any note or book here, showing the amount of the
transactions with regard to this small-boat fishing?-No. I have
offered the men, when they came ashore, to pay them for their
haul, and then they could go where they liked with the money; but
they said, 'What is the use of doing that?-We want so-and-so
from the shop, and we would just have to give the money back
again.'
7218. How is it ascertained at the shop what amount the men have
to get in goods for their fish? Do you take a note of it at the
time?-Yes; and I enter it in the fish book.
7219. And from that note you know how much the man has to
receive in goods?-Yes; or how much he has to receive in cash.
7220. But he takes the goods if he chooses to go to the shop at the
time?-Yes.
7221. What amount of transactions of that kind may there be in the
course of a year?-Last year I think it was only about £56.
7222. Was that the whole value of the fish so purchased?-Yes;
but I think in some years since I came there it has been over £100.
7223. It is only the North Roe men you are speaking of now?-
Yes.
7224. The Yell men don't deliver their fish to you in that way?-
No; not generally.
7225. Then that sum would be paid to about 33 men?-I think
there are more than that who engage in the winter fishing. Some
of the men who go to the Faroe fishing, and some also who go
south, employ their time in winter in that way.
7226. That would make it a very small sum that is paid to the men
for their winter fishing?-Yes; it is very small.
7227. So that it rather seems the winter fishing is hardly worth
taking into account in your general transactions?-It is not.
7228. Do Messrs. Hay & Co. purchase cattle to any extent for the
purpose of selling them?-They have an island, the island of Uyea,
where they graze for their own purposes.
7229. Is that in Unst?-No; it is in this parish. I buy the cattle for
that island yearly.
7230. Is it simply for grazing purposes there that you buy the
cattle?-For no other purpose.
7231. Are they bought at public sales?-Generally they are.
7232. Do these cattle enter the accounts of the fishermen?-Yes,
mostly. They pass through their accounts; but I could show cases
where they received the cash again immediately.
7233. Are they not settled for at the annual settlement?-Yes; or
they get cash for them at any time they want.
7234. Are these cattle often taken from men who are in arrear with
their accounts?-No; they are never taken from the people who
are in arrears. If a man was in arrears, he might be asked to bring
his cow to the public sale if he was to dispose of her; and then we
might buy her or not.
7235. There is said to be a system in Shetland of marking the
horns of cattle when the merchant or landlord has a debt against a
fisherman tenant: can you explain what the practice is with regard
to that?-I believe such a practice does exist; but in my own
experience I have never set any value upon it at all, and never
practised it at North Roe.
7236. What do you understand the practice to be?-I understand
that if any one has a claim against a tenant, either proprietor or
merchant or any other party, they consider that if their mark or
initials or brand is put upon the horns of the animal, it then
becomes their property, even in cases where the animal has not
been removed from the possession of the original owner. That is
how I understand it has been done in my neighbourhood.
7237. Do you understand that it is usual for the creditor to remove
the cattle so marked from the premises of the debtor, and to keep
them in his byre or yard for some time, and afterwards to return
them upon loan, that removal being understood to be the badge of
possession or the sign of the transference of the property?-Yes. I
did that myself in one case, but it was not a direct case of that
kind. The debtor was the owner of the cow, but another party had
the cow in his possession; there was an intermediate party in the
matter. I bought it from the man, putting a value upon it, and
removed it.
7238. Charging the price to his credit in his account with you?-
Yes. I removed it to my own byre and kept it there for some time,
and then, as I was not wanting it very much, I gave it back to the
poor man who had it originally; but the man I gave it back to was
not the debtor at all.
7239. In what way was that third party in possession of it?-I
don't know. I think he had reared the animal. There is such a
system as giving a calf, if you have too many and don't want it,
to another man, and he brings it up; and when the calf comes to
be sold, one-half of the proceeds belongs to the original owner.
7240. Then you think this beast may have been in the possession
of the party on some such footing as [Page 174] that?-I think it is
possible it may have been in that way.
7241. If that was so, your debtor would only be the proprietor of
one-half of it in reality?-No; there was something peculiar in this
case, because the debtor was the sole owner of the beast.
7242. Then that was not such a case as you have mentioned?-No.
7243. May the possessor of the animal have been another creditor
of your debtor who had it?-No; he was not.
7244. Is it possible that he may have hired it from your debtor?-I
don't think it.
7245. You think he had it simply in loan?-Yes.
7246. When cattle are taken to market in that way by a creditor, do
you know, from the general understanding of the country, how the
price is fixed?-In many cases I think there is no price fixed at all.
7247. The animal is just taken generally for security of the
debt?-Yes, in the meantime, until it is sold, and then the
proceeds go to the party who put on the mark.
7248. These sales, I understand, take place at fixed places in each
district, and at certain times in the year?-Yes, in May and
October.
7249. They are conducted by public auction?-Yes.
7250. At these auctions does the creditor generally appear and bid
for the marked cattle?-I don't think it. It would not avail for him
to do so.
7251. Why?-Because any other party at the auction could buy
them.
7252. But is the bidding perfectly fair?-Perfectly fair on all
occasions.
7253. You do not know that any suspicion exists that any one of
the public may not bid, or runs any risk of the displeasure of some
powerful neighbour by bidding for cattle that are so marked?-No.
I would bid in such at case myself, and I have explained to the
country people that if the auctioneer refused a bid from anybody,
they could have an action against him for refusing it.
7254. You are now speaking of your own practice, but do you not
know that such fear of bidding against a merchant-creditor exists
in other parts of the country?-I never heard of such thing, and I
do not think it does exist.
7255. Have you known merchants buying in cattle so marked at
sales?-There is nothing of the kind practised in our quarter, and I
have never observed anything of the kind at sales elsewhere.
7256. Are you aware whether many of the fishermen at your
station keep accounts at any of the banks?-I know that some of
the men in our neighbourhood do have accounts in the banks for I
have transacted such business for some of them.
7257. Is it the case that when a man who has a bank account wants
a little money, he prefers to apply to the merchant for an advance
to account of his next year's fishing, or of the present year's
fishing, if it is during the fishing season, rather than to take it from
the bank with which he has the account?-I believe it is. This year
I sent £11 for a tenant to be lodged in one of the banks in Lerwick,
and when I handed him the deposit receipt, he said, 'Perhaps it
will not be long before I want some of this again.' I said to him, 'I
think you had better not take any of it out, but let it stand in the
bank; and if you want to keep you going until next year, you can
get it from me rather than disturb your bank account.'
7258. That was a case in which you were on such terms with the
fisherman, and had such confidence in him, that you were ready to
make him the advance?-Yes.
7259. But do you know whether it is the practice for fishermen
who have funds in the bank privately, to exert themselves
somewhat in order to get advances from an unwilling merchant,
rather than disturb their own bank account?-I have heard of such
a case in our own neighbourhood.
7260. But don't you know of any such cases in your own
experience?-No.
7261. Do you know whether it is the practice at all?-I don't know
that it is the practice.
7262. Do merchants or shopkeepers who are in the fish trade act
as bankers to their men to any extent in this part of the country?-
I cannot speak to anything of that kind being done of my own
knowledge.
7263. Do none of the fishermen keep money lying in your hands:
do they not leave it with you at the settlement?-Very seldom.
7264. Are you an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-
No; Hay & Co. are agents in Lerwick for that society, and I send to
them for any tickets want.
7265. Do the annual subscriptions enter the accounts of your
fishermen at North Roe?-Yes.
7266. When payments are to be made to the men on account of the
society, how are these made?-I have never had a case of the kind.
There has been only one case where a fisherman had to get money,
and he went down to Hay & Co. at Lerwick, and got it himself
direct.
7267. Would there be any difficulty, in consequence of the want of
banks in the district, in introducing a cash system of payments in a
parish like this: I mean the system of paying in cash for fish at
more frequent periods, and paying in cash for shop purchases, and
also paying in cash for hosiery?-There would certainly a great
disadvantage in doing so, in consequence of the want of a bank in
our neighbourhood, because there was a cash system of payments,
we would have to get larger sums of money from the bank; and to
fetch money from the bank, in order to make those payments,
would be rather a risky thing, seeing that we must either convey it
by special messenger from Lerwick, or by the steamer.
7268. I suppose, however, that if a cash system were common in
the country, a branch bank would probably be established at some
convenient place?-I don't know about that; I think that, having
three banks already in Lerwick, they would hardly be likely to send
a bank farther north this way. I don't think the business would pay
them to do so.
7269. Are you a member of the parochial board the parish?-I am.
7270. Are you aware whether many persons who are members of
the families of fishermen-tenants or crofter-fishermen are
supported by the board?-I know several cases of that kind.
7271. Are these persons members of the families of fishermen who
have considerable incomes from fishing and from land?-I don't
think so. I think that in cases where their children are able to
support them they are bound to do so.
7272. But is there an inclination among the people here to get
support from the poor's roll to a greater extent than existed some
years ago?-I think that feeling is on the increase in the parish,
and I think the present poor law tends to increase the feeling.
7273. Do you know what is the usual allowance given to paupers
in this parish?-As far as I can recollect, I think it ranges from 1s.
6d. to 15s. a month.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, MORGAN LAURENSON,
examined.
7274. You are a merchant at Lochend?-I am.
7275. Do you deal both in drapery goods and provisions?-Yes;
but principally in drapery.
7276. Do you employ any fishermen?-A few; but I only engage
in that trade to a small extent.
7277. How many boats do you send out to summer fishing?-I had
three boats last year, two large and one small.
7278. Are you a landholder or tacksman?-No.
7279. You engage any fishermen in the neighbourhood who are
willing to make a contract with you?-Yes.
[Page 175]
7280. You have no men who are bound to fish for you?-None.
7281. Do you run accounts with the men in the way which has
been described by the previous witness and settle with them
yearly?-Yes.
7282. Do you find that the balances are generally in the
fishermen's favour, or against them?-For the last two years
they have generally been in their favour. In former years they
were not generally so; they were often against them.
7283. Do fishermen continue for any length of time to fish for you
without changing, or do you find that you have different fishermen
in your employment in different years?-I have not been very long
in the business, only since 1865. I am a new tenant comparatively;
but for the past five years, ever since I commenced to have a boat,
I have not had many changes.
7284. You must have had fifteen or sixteen fishermen in your
employment during that time?-Yes.
7285. Have they generally been the same men throughout?-Yes.
Perhaps a man in each boat has gone away to another fish-curer;
but generally they have been the same.
7286. Do you think the fact of a man having an account in your
books is generally an inducement to him to continue in your
employment for the next year?-I could not say that it is so in all
cases.
7287. But in some cases it may have that effect?-Yes; in a few
cases.
7288. Does a fisherman get accommodation from you, in the shape
of supplies of goods more readily if he fishes for you, and agrees
to continue to fish, than if he were not in your employment?-Yes.
7289. Are the fishermen generally in a condition to require that
accommodation?-Most of them are.
7290. A man may not require it every year, but in the course of
half-a-dozen years he is pretty likely, as a general rule, to be in
want of some accommodation of that sort?-Yes; that is the case
with most of them.
7291. Do you deal in hosiery to a considerable extent?-Yes.
7292. Do you buy it, or do you give out wool to knitters?-I buy it
chiefly. We give out wool to those who have not got wool of their
own; but many of our knitters, I may say the greater number of
them, have their own wool.
7293. The knitting in this district, I understand, is more of the
coarser kinds of worsted?-Yes; the finer underclothing is made
here, not fancy goods. At least, fancy goods are made only to a
very small extent.
7294. But both in the case of knitters employed by you and of
people who sell you their goods manufactured with their own
wool, is the payment made at your counter in goods or in cash?-
Invariably in goods.
7295. Are you often asked to give a portion of the price in cash?-
No; very seldom.
7296. Do the knitters run accounts with you?-Yes.
7297. And these are squared up every now and then in your books?
-Yes. As a rule, we never run long accounts. The accounts are
squared up at short intervals, and the women get a bill at the
counter if there is a balance in their favour. They get a note of
their purchases in their hands; and my usual mode is, to enter the
balance in a bill, which they hold until they return with some other
stuff and pay it. I find it is the best plan to keep the accounts
short.
7298. At settlement do they get a note?-They get a receipt for the
amount paid, and if they have a balance to receive, that is paid in
goods over the counter.
7299. If they don't want the goods at the time, how is that
arranged?-It is very rarely that they don't take the full value;
but if they do not, what remains over is left as a balance, and it is
usually carried into a new account. Sometimes they want it on a
line, stating that the balance amounts to so much, and that I shall
pay it.
7300. Is that line given in the form of an I O U, or of a bill?-I
have given it in the form of an I O U, but very rarely. I generally
put the name of the party on the line, because in some cases they
have lost the lines, and then come back to me, when it was not
entered in the book, and asked the value of them. I did not wish to
allow them to suffer for that; but as I was afraid that another party
might get the line and bring it in, I always put the name on it.
7301. You put the name on it in order to prevent the value of it
from being demanded by any person except the one to whom it
was granted at first?-Yes. I generally enter the lines in a book
now, so that I may be kept safe.
7302. Have you a list of the lines which you issue?-For some
time past, I have entered them in a book when they were given out.
7303. But you have no separate register for such lines?-No.
7304. Is there any reason why cash is not asked in these
transactions for hosiery?-It is understood that we are not
prepared generally to give any cash; but in the case of a regular
knitter who wanted some part of her payment in cash, I have never
refused, so far as I recollect, to give her what she asked. However,
it was usually a comparatively small sum that was asked in that
way.
7305. Do you sometimes buy articles all for cash, making special
bargains for them?-Occasionally, if it is anything special.
7306. In that case, is a lower price given in cash than would have
been given in goods?-Yes, because in ordinary transactions I
have a profit only on the goods sold. I may state, however, that the
women are unwilling to take cash. I remember that on one
occasion, when I was changing from one place of business to
another, I had no goods, and I offered the knitters cash for their
hosiery, at such a price as would give me a reasonable profit, but
they objected to take it. For instance, in the case of gentlemen's
undershirts, the usual price given may be from 4s. to 4s. 6d. I have
offered to give them in the one case 3s. 8d., and in the other 4s. in
cash, but they have invariably refused. They would rather leave it,
and get such goods as they wanted, than take a lower price in cash,
and that has got to be the rule. They are very fond of getting the
highest nominal value; and I can show from my books that, as a
rule, I give the full price for each article which we charge in
selling them, and have only a profit on the goods we give in
exchange.
7307. Do you sell your goods south?-Yes.
7308. Are you prepared to show that just now?-Yes. [Produces
book.] This [showing] is the sales book, containing copies of the
invoices.
7309. The women in their accounts are charged with the wool as
got by them?-Yes.
7310. Are they credited again with the knitted goods as got by
you?-Yes.
7311. Therefore, in that way the wool is really given out by you to
them, to be knitted as by persons in your employment?-No, they
are not employed by me, but I expect the women to bring back the
goods to me, as we don't sell wool, because it is rather difficult to
get. With regard to the prices, I show here an entry in a copy
invoice, under date Sept. 14, 1871 of half a dozen girls' polkas at
15s., 7s. 6d., and I also show an entry in my women's ledger of 'by
one doz. girls' polkas, 14s. 4d.,' on January 27, 1870.
7312. Was there any material difference in the price of polkas
within that period of 18 months?-No. I also show an entry under
date February 18, 1870, of 1/3 doz. girls' polkas at 15s., 5s. In
addition to the price entered in the women's ledger, there is the
price of re-dressing, which is about 6d. a dozen, and there are
boxes required in which to send them away, for which we do not
get any return.
7313. Do you swear that these girls' polkas are a fair sample of the
other articles in which you deal, with regard to the expense of
production to you and the invoice price to your customer in the
south?-Yes. I may state that we have a very strong desire to give
encouragement to good knitters, by giving them the highest prices.
7314. Can you mention any case in which you have [Page 176]
sold hosiery at a profit?-No, except in small orders, or retail
orders from private parties. In such cases, I consider it fair to
charge a small profit on the goods, in order to protect my other
customers who buy largely from me. That is the only case in
which there is any profit.
7315. Do you purchase worsted to any great extent?-Not worsted,
but wool,-the raw material from the farmers in the district.
7316. Is that spun and made up by persons employed by you?-
Yes. I do that for the purpose of finding employment for women
who have no way of their own to earn a livelihood.
7317. Do you use that wool for your own trade, or do you sell it as
worsted to merchants elsewhere?-We cannot get enough of it. It
is entirely for our own trade that it is made up, with very rare
exceptions.
7318. Do you make up all qualities of it, or is it simply the coarser
kind of wool required for the underclothing department?-The
softest wool is made up for underclothing, and the coarser is made
into tweeds.
7319. But you do not make any of the finer kinds of worsted for
fancy work?-Nothing, except to a very trifling extent. Our
knitters don't knit that kind of work.
7320. What is the rate of payment for spinning?-The girls to
whom I sell it, card, spin, and knit it usually.
7321. Then the entry you showed me was an entry of wools?-
Yes. They would be to sell the worsted once they had spun it, but
they can turn it to more account by knitting.
7322. There is nobody in your employment merely for spinning?-
I cannot say there is. Occasionally we get a woman to spin for us;
but they don't like to do that, as it is not profitable.
7323. The way in which you deal with these spinners and knitters
is, that you generally sell the wool to them?-Yes.
7324. And they bring it, and sell it back to you when made into
articles of hosiery?-Yes.
7325. Is that the invariable practice?-Yes; some of them have
offered to take the wool, and make it 'halvers.' The practice
among the people themselves is, that a party who has wool gives it
to a neighbour who has none; she knits two pieces of goods, one of
which belongs to the owner of the wool, and the other is kept by
the knitter for her trouble. I objected to that system, because I did
not think it encouraged them to make the most of their material,
and they did not, perhaps, give fair attention to the improvement
the knitting. If they buy 4s. worth of wool, and if girl knits well,
she may turn 10s. or 12s. out of that; in some cases more; so that
there is more encouragement to them by knitting the wool
themselves, than by selling it.
7326. I suppose you sometimes buy articles which have been made
by knitters with their own wool, spun by themselves, and which
has not originally been purchased from you?-Yes; a great many
of the articles of hosiery are purchased by us in that way.
7327. On whose property is your shop?-On the Busta estate.
7328. How long have you held your shop there?-Since 1864,-
seven years.
7329. Was there a shop in existence at Lochend before you opened
yours?-There had been a shop there for a long time.
7330. In the same premises?-Yes; but it has been considerably
enlarged.
7331. Where were you before?-At Ollaberry. I had the business
place there now occupied by Mr. Anderson's firm.
7332. You left that when they took it into their own hands?-Yes.
7333. Had you any difficulty in getting a shop in which to carry on
your business in this district cannot say that I had. I was offered
this place by the Busta trustees. It was in a state of dilapidation
when I took it, and they offered it to me on condition that I would
make the necessary repairs on it for myself.
7334. Was any difficulty stated about giving you the shop on
account of interfering with the business of the other merchants
in the district?-No.
7335. Do you sometimes buy fish from the fishermen who are
employed by Messrs. Anderson & Co. or by Messrs. Hay & Co.; I
mean odd hauls now and then?-I cannot say that I buy any from
Messrs. Hay Co.'s fishermen, because they would hardly sell to me
on account of the inconvenience.
7336. But are you aware whether the practice exists of the
fishermen employed by you selling occasionally to the factors of
other merchants, and the fishermen of other merchants selling
occasionally to you or your factors?-I think that practice exists
only to it very small extent.
7337. But you have detected that practice to certain extent?-I
cannot say that I have; there have been very few fish bought from
such men.
7338. Was that done because the men did not get cash advances
from the parties for when they fished regularly?-I don't think it
was. I think it was merely done from a notion on the part of the
men.
7339. Did they get merely the same price which they would have
got from their own employer?-I think they got the same price in
all cases.
7340. Then why should they not deliver their fish as usual in the
ordinary way?-I cannot say. They perhaps think it is a privilege
to sell to any one who will buy from them-although that is not
the rule. It is understood that they are not at liberty, as a rule, to
do so, but yet they do it, although it has been very rarely in my
experience.
7341. When they sell their fish in that way, are these transactions
for ready money?-Not always. They may sell them in order to
pay some goods which they have got before. If they were selling
them to me, they might bring them in order to pay some account
which they had at my shop.
7342. Are there many fishermen dealing at your shop on credit
who fish to other merchants?-Occasionally there are a few.
7343. You have accounts with them?-Yes; with a few.
7344. Are these accounts settled annually, at the ordinary settling
time, as a rule; or is there any rule, about the period for
settlement?-There is a rule that they shall settle annually after
the settlement with their own curers, and at that time they usually
bring part of the cash which has been paid to them.
7345. Do you sometimes find that these accounts are not settled at
that time?-Sometimes I do.
7346. Are you a loser to any extent by the failure of the fishermen
to settle accounts of that kind?-I consider that I am, in some
cases.
7347. But these debts sometimes run over a period of years?-In
cases where the parties are poor they do.
7348. Have there been offers made to you by fishermen who are in
these circumstances, and who are in your debt, to settle their
accounts by engaging to fish for you during the fishing season?-
No; I cannot say that there have been any offers made to me of that
sort.
7349. You have not taken on a fisherman who was in your debt in
that way?-No.
7350. Do you not know of any case in which you have taken on a
man who was in your debt, simply with the view of allowing him
to pay it off?-With the fishermen on the Busta estate I have done
so.
7351. Were these men who had incurred a debt to you while they
were fishing for another merchant?-In one instance that was the
case; but I find, as a rule, that a party who is in debt is not one who
is likely to be ready to offer his services. The fact that he is in
debt is no inducement to make him fish for you, but rather the
contrary.
7352. Do you think that, as a rule, he will continue to fish for his
former employer?-Yes.
7353. But the fact probably is, that if he is in debt to you in that
way, he is also in debt to [Page 177] his own employer?-I
believe that is generally the case.
7354. Have you known any case of a fisherman changing his
employer because he was so deeply in debt to him, that that
employer would not advance him any more goods?-I have in my
own transactions had to refuse advances to a fisherman, because I
knew he was getting into debt deeper than he could pay. I refused
to advance him any longer, and left him at liberty to do the best he
could for himself.
7355. Did he leave you at the end of the season?-Yes.
7356. And at the beginning of it new season, did he go to another
employer?-Yes.
7357. In that case how have you secured your debt?-I gave him
perhaps a year, and then I had to press him for the amount.
7358. Did you take him to court?-Yes; I took him to court,
because he refused to pay what I believed he was able to pay.
7359. Have you ever in such a case succeeded in getting any part
of your debt settled by his new employer?-Yes.
7360. How was that done? Did you, at the beginning of the fishing
season, get the new employer to make an advance to the fisherman
to account of your debt?-In the case I am referring to, the
employer at the end of the fishing season made a payment to me,
as an instalment on the debt.
7361. Was that done by arrangement with the fisherman?-Yes;
the fisherman went to his new employer and got his line or
security for a part, indeed for the whole amount, to be paid in three
instalments, in three years, because I thought it better to part with
the man when he was getting too deeply into debt, and perhaps the
change in going to another employer would lead him to better
himself.
7362. Was he likely to better himself in such circumstances?-It
chanced that he got into a good fishing boat, and he did better
himself.
7363. But that was just a chance, was it not?-Yes, I should think
so.
7364. Was it the man who wished to go to another employer when
his supplies were stopped by you, or was it you who wished him to
change?-He could not do without advances, and he would not
give me security to cover my risk in giving him any.
7365. But the new employer, in employing the fisherman, took
exactly the same risk which you refused, and I suppose gave him
supplies?-Not to the same extent. It was only after the man had
been at sea at one season at the fishing for his new employer, and
had earned a fair earning, that he paid me one-third of his account,
and became good for the balance to be paid at the end of the next
two seasons.
7366. Did that merchant become good for the whole balance of
your account?-I don't know whether it was legally or formally
gone into, but it was understood he would see that the man paid
me.
7367. Was that a single case, or has it occurred oftener with
you?-That has been the only case in my experience.
7368. Who was the merchant?-Mr. Greig, the manager for
Messrs. Hay & Co.
7369. Are you aware whether that case is of ordinary occurrence
in transactions between fish-curers, when fisherman leaves the
employment of one and goes to that of another?-I think it has
been an understood thing among them; at least some time ago,
when I was more in connection with the larger concerns of
Hillswick and Ollaberry, it was understood that when a fisherman
ran away from his responsibility, after getting into debt, his new
employer, if he was taken up by another curer in the district,
would be morally liable to pay the balance for the man, if it was
reasonable. I don't know whether that is the practice now or
not.
7870. Was there just a general understanding that the new
employer should make some kind of arrangement about it, the
particulars being settled in each case, or was there a rule that he
should become responsible for the whole debt, or for a specific
proportion of the debt?-I think it was understood that it would be
fair for the new employer to become accountable for the whole
debt, if it was reasonable, or for such a proportion of it as he
would undertake to pay for the man.
7871. Were you in the employment of Mr. Anderson at
Hillswick?-I was a partner in the business at Ollaberry. I was
in the employment of Mr. Gideon Anderson for years before,
and then I was manager at Ollaberry, until I went to Lochend.
7372. Before you left Ollaberry you had not been in business for
yourself, but you were merely manager for Anderson or Anderson
& Co.?-The firm was Anderson Brothers & Laurenson, and I was
a member of that firm.
7373. Before you left the firm, did that understanding which
you have described exist among the fishing curers in this
neighbourhood?-Yes.
7374. In your experience, was it generally acted upon?-I think it
was. I may mention that I did not have to do with the fishermen in
the summer season, while I managed the business at Ollaberry for
seven years. I had only to do with the winter fishing. In the
summer they fished for Hillswick, and I had nothing further than
ordinary transactions with the fishermen then. It was chiefly the
hosiery trade and the winter fishing that I knew about.
7375. But you were, to some extent, acquainted with the
transactions which took place in the summer fishing?-Yes.
7376. And in describing this understanding, you are speaking from
your general knowledge of the system pursued?-Yes.
7377. With what merchants, in this part of Shetland, did that
understanding exist, and was acted upon? Did it extend to Messrs.
Hay at North Roe; you have mentioned an instance in which it was
acted upon with them?-That was in my own experience since.
7378. But did the understanding extend to them at that time?-
Messrs. Hay & Co. had not a station there then: it was another
firm.
7379. To whom did that understanding extend?-To Messrs. Adie,
Mr. Inkster at Brae and to the firm of Anderson at Hillswick.
7380. Did it extend to the Mossbank people?-I cannot say. The
fishermen were not very likely to remove from here to Mossbank,
or from Mossbank to here.
7381. Did it extend to fishing stations in Yell?-I don't think so.
7382. Or further south to Reawick?-Not to my knowledge.
7383. The fishermen, you think, do not move about so far as
that?-No. Perhaps I may be allowed to say with regard to the
special case of a fisherman that I mentioned, that there was no
previous arrangement between Mr. Greig and me about a general
collection of debts from the men. I was merely pressing the debtor
for payment, and Mr. Greig came forward as a friend.
7384. Do you mean that the understanding or practice which you
have referred to does not exist so far as the Messrs. Hay are
concerned?-There is no such understanding betwixt me and
Messrs. Hay.
7385. And you have said that you did not refer to them when you
spoke of the practice existing at a former time, when you were in a
different firm?-No; I do not include them. With regard to
another previous statement I wish also to say, that so far from
wishing my customers to get into debt, I have had a notice signed
to the effect that I would not give credit to knitters beyond four
months, and then I reduced it to two months. That shows that it is
against our interest, instead of being for our interest, to let them
get into debt.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ANDREW RATTER,
examined.
7386. You are a fisherman at North Roe?-I am.
7387. Are you a tenant of Messrs. Hay there?-Yes.
[Page 178]
7388. What balance was paid to you last year at settlement?-£5,
15s.
7389. Is that about the ordinary sum you have to get in a fair
season?-Yes.
7390. How much was your account for furnishings for your
family?-Between £3 and £4.
7391. Is that about an ordinary thing too?-I think some of the
men take more than that.
7392. Do you generally deal at Messrs. Hay's shop at North Roe
for all the things you want in the way of provisions and
clothing?-Yes.
7393. Do you deal anywhere else?-Very little.
7394. Where else: at Lochend?-No; I don't deal at Lochend.
7395. Do you deal any at Lerwick?-No; I don't deal anywhere to
any great extent except at North Roe.
7396. Is it usual for the men there to deal chiefly with Messrs.
Hay?-Yes; so far as I know.
7397. Is there no other shop convenient for them?-Not very
convenient.
7398. Are the articles you get very satisfactory in quality?-Yes; I
have always found them so.
7399. What do you pay for your tea?-From 8d. to 10d. a quarter.
7400. What do you pay for your meal just now?-It varies in price,
according to the seasons. I could not exactly say what the meal is
just now, because I am not buying any at present. The last I
bought was in the summer, when I went to the fishing, and I think
paid 5s. 4d. per lispund of 32 lbs. for it.
7401. Is it by lispund weight you generally buy it?-It is
sometimes by lispund weight, and sometimes by boll weight.
7402. What is the price of a boll?-22s.
7403. Have you ever fished for other fish-curers than Messrs. Hay
& Co.?-Yes; I fished for the late James Peterson at North Roe.
That was before Messrs. Hay got the shop there.
7404. Since Messrs. Hay have had a place there, have you ever
fished for any other merchants?-No.
7405. Have you ever sold your fish to other curers?-No.
7406. Not your small fish?-No.
7407. Have you never sold a single fish to anybody except Messrs.
Hay & Co.?-I recollect selling perhaps a cwt. or two through the
winter to Mr. Inkster at North Roe.
7408. Were you paid in cash for them?-Yes.
7409. Did Mr. Greig find any fault with you for doing so?-No.
7410. Did he know of it?-Yes; I made no secret of it. I did it
openly.
7411. Is it understood that you are at liberty to sell your fish in
winter to anybody you like?-No.
7412. But you sometimes take the liberty of doing it?-Yes.
7413. Why did you prefer to sell your fish at that time to Mr.
Inkster rather than to Mr. Greig?-I had perhaps a small account
with Inkster at the time and he preferred the fish rather than cash.
7414. Does he cure fish himself?-Yes; a little.
7415. Do you go to the Faroe fishing?-No.
7416. Do you pay your rent to Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes.
7417. Is it settled along with your account with them?-Yes.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JANE HALCROW,
examined.
7418. You live with your mother near Hillswick?-I do.
7419. Is she a widow?-Yes.
7420. Has your mother a piece of land?-Yes.
7421. How do you work it: do you manage it for her?-No.
7422. Do you get a man to work it for you?-No, we work it
ourselves.
7423. Do you live with your mother alone, or is there anybody else
in the house?-There is a servant.
7424. Is your land on the Busta estate?-Yes.
7425. Do you do a good deal in knitting?-Not a great deal, but I
do some.
7426. Where do you sell it?-At different shops; generally at
Hillswick, and sometimes I sell it in Lerwick, and sometimes at
Ollaberry.
7427. What makes you go to Lerwick and Ollaberry with your
work?-I cannot say.
7428. Do you just go there when you want to go?-Yes.
7429. Do you get a better price there for your knitting than you do
at Hillswick?-No; it is just about the same.
7430. How are you paid for it?-Generally in goods.
7431. Do you sometimes get a little money?-It is not much
money that I get, but I get stamps when I ask them.
7432. What do you knit?-Principally ladies' slips or spencers.
7433. What is the price of them?-From 1s. 6d. to 1s. 8d.: perhaps
we may get as much as 2s. when they are good.
7434. That is the price of them in goods?-Yes.
7435. Did you ever sell any of them for all money?-No.
7436. Why?-I never asked it.
7437. Would you rather have had money?-Yes; sometimes.
7438. Then why did you not ask it?-Because I was generally
needing the goods.
7439. But you said you would sometimes rather have had the
money: why did you not ask it then? Was it because the practice
is not to give money for hosiery?-I suppose it was.
7440. Did you not ask it because you would not get it?-I knew
that if I had asked it I might have got a little.
7441. Would you prefer to get some money for your hosiery
whenever you take it to sell?-Yes.
7442. Do you think you would get less money for it than you get in
goods?-I don't know.
7443. Who do you sell it to in Lerwick?-Mr. Sinclair.
7444. Do you keep an account with him?-No.
7445. Do you keep an account at any of the shops?-Yes; I
sometimes keep an account at Hillswick with Mr. Anderson.
7446. How often do you settle it?-Sometimes at the end of the
year, and sometimes oftener.
7447. Is there anything entered in that account as having been sold
by you except hosiery?-No.
7448. Are there no eggs?-No; we sell eggs, but they are never put
into our account; they are just paid for at the time.
7449. Do you get money for them?-Yes; if it is asked.
7450. Do you often ask for money?-Not very often.
7451. Why do you not ask for it?-Because we are commonly
taking tea.
7452. Do you want the tea?-Yes.
7453. How many eggs would you sell in a month in summer?
Three or four dozen?-We might.
7454. What do you get for the dozen?-6d.
7455. Do you always take the price of it in tea?-Not always, but
generally.
7456. Do you ever sell them anywhere else except Hillswick?-
No.
7457. Are the goods which you get in payment for your hosiery put
on the other side of your account, in order to settle it?-Yes; when
the hosiery is not paid up.
7458. Do you sometimes get your hosiery paid up at the time?-
Yes, generally.
7459. But you said you had an account: is that account for goods
supplied to your family?-No; it is sometimes for cotton.
7460. Is that for your own dress?-Yes.
[Page 179]
7461. Is your hosiery always paid for in dresses and clothing for
yourself?-Generally.
7462. Do you pay your account altogether in hosiery?-Yes.
7463. You never pay money for what you want?-No.
7464. Do you deal for cotton and dresses anywhere else than at
Hillswick?-No.
7465. Do you got these things as good and as cheap there as you
could get them elsewhere?-I suppose I do.
7466. Have you never tried them elsewhere?-Yes; I have got
them in Lerwick from Mr Sinclair.
7467. Were the goods you got there of the same quality, or were
they better or worse than at Mr. Anderson's?-They were just
about the same, I suppose.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, Rev. JAMES R.
SUTHERLAND, examined.
7468. You are the minister of the parish of Northmaven?-I am.
7469. How long have you been so?-Since November 1848.
7470. You are, I presume, intimately acquainted with the condition
of the people in your parish?-Perfectly so-as much as any
minister can be.
7471. And you know the system which prevails, and which has
been described in the evidence yesterday and to-day, with regard
to the payment for fish in account with the fish-curer, and also
with regard to hosiery?-Yes; I am acquainted with that generally.
7472. You have not been cited to attend here to-day?-No.
7473. But I understand you are willing and desirous to make some
statement with regard to the effects of that system upon the habits
of the people?-I am perfectly willing.
7474. Do you think the system of long payments which exists here
is a wholesome one as regards the habits of the fishermen?-I
think it is most ruinous. I think I have had very good opportunities
of judging of the effect of the system upon the people, being
intimately acquainted with them, and having received the
statements in private of a great many of them; and I cannot
conceive any system which could be more ruinous in a moral
point of view, apart altogether from its effect upon them in a
pecuniary way. In my opinion, the independence of the people is
wholly destroyed. There is scarcely a man I know, with very few
exceptions, who is not in terror, and terror that I could scarcely
describe, of the merchant to whom he is indebted, and I believe
that three-fourths of the whole of my parishioners are in debt to
some merchant or other, and thoroughly under their control.
7475. What is your ground for saying that so many your own
parishioners are in debt?-I know it from their own lips.
7476. Do you speak of the present time?-Yes, of the present
time. There are a few exceptions to that, some of which I could
point out, but not many.
7477. Do you consider that the state of indebtedness is greater at
the present time, or less, than it has been generally throughout your
experience in the parish?-I don't see any improvement in that
respect, taking the whole population. There might be one here and
one there who have got free of debt this year, because it has been
an exceptionally good year in cattle; but, taking them as the same
state of serfdom as they were twenty-three years ago, when I came
here.
7478. Your ground for that statement, I understand, is the
information you have received from the people themselves?-Yes.
7479. Do you think the people generally who make these
statements to you are to be relied upon?-Generally, I think so,
because I am exceedingly well acquainted with many of their
circumstances, and I know those who are comparatively
independent. I speak only of that independence which we might
expect from such it population. There are many of them who are
in a position which we would call pretty comfortable. I know that
from having the management of their affairs privately; but I don't
believe that, for the last fifteen or twenty years, the people who are
in such circumstances have increased in number, or have increased
the amount of the savings which are at their credit in places that I
know.
7480. That statement you have now made refers to the better-off
class among them?-Yes; to the better-off class, but they are very
few compared with the rest.
7481. You think those who are not so well off may be two-thirds
or three-fourths of your parishioners?-I may say that there are
three-fourths of them who are not in these comfortable
circumstances.
7482. With regard to the larger portion of your parishioners who
are indebted, your information is derived from their own
statements, and you say that you think generally these statements
are reliable?-Perfectly so; at least as much so as such statements
can be expected to be; but I have my information from other
sources than the people themselves. I have it from those who are
above them in station, and who know their circumstances as well
as I know them myself.
7483. I suppose a man comes to you as a clergyman, and as one
who is likely to sympathize with him when he is in difficulty about
his affairs?-Yes.
7484. Has that often happened in your experience?-Yes; and in
such cases this is what I do-Generally there are two or three
elders in the parish, who are very respectable and very
independent, and I privately consult these men as to whether the
statements which have been made to me by the people are true. I
have found that I have been oftener deceived in thinking that a
man had something saved, when he had nothing, than the other
way.
7485. It was stated, I think, in the evidence previously given, that
many Shetland people are pretty well off, and have accounts in the
bank, although they don't look as if they were worth anything, and
pretend that they have nothing, being afraid to let it be known that
they have money; and a story has been told of a man begging hard
to borrow money with which to buy a cow, and going to his
minister for the money: are you acquainted with that story?-I am
acquainted with the story. I believe it has been attributed to me; it
did not happen with me, but the minister with whom it happened
told me about it in his own house. I was there when the thing took
place.
7486. Does that story not lead to a suspicion that the complaints
which are often made to you, and which you say are the grounds
upon which you have arrived at the conclusion you have stated as
to the circumstances of a large proportion of your parishioners,
may be somewhat exaggerated by the parties?-No. That case
occurred in a parish containing between 900 and 1000 people, and
it was only a single case out of that population. It was the only
case which the parish minister, who is still alive, was able to tell
me had ever happened to him. One case out of nearly 1000 people
is not many, but I do know cases something like that. I know
people who have some pounds laid by in certain places, and they
come to me by stealth to get me to transact business on their
account with regard to these small sums. And why do they do that
by stealth? It is for fear of the merchant and for fear of the laird.
7487. Why is a man who has a little money by him afraid of the
merchant and of the laird?-That is just one of the evils of this
truck system, and this system of not dealing in ready money on all
occasions. I don't speak in favour of the population generally,
more than I would do in favour of the merchant, or of the heritor,
were it not for the truth. That is one of the consequences of the
system, and to that extent I think it is very demoralizing.
7488. You think it is demoralizing that the system [Page 180]
should lead a man to conceal the amount of his means in the way
you have related?-Yes; and it leads to more than that.
7489. Do you think that arises from the system of payment in
goods, and the system of running accounts?-Exactly.
7490. How is it the result of that system?-My opinion is, that
with the merchant and such men, it is a case of diamond cut
diamond. The fisherman who has an account with the merchant
imagines that the merchant is taking an undue profit, and that it is
from him, and therefore he sets himself to do everything he can
against the merchant. I don't approve of the way in which the men
act in order to counteract the merchant; but that is an effect of the
system, because the man believes that the merchant is taking too
large profit from him, and using him otherwise not in proper way.
7491. Is it a general impression among the people with whom you
come in contact, that the merchant has too large profits?-I will
give you an illustration, and that will serve for the whole. There
was a gentleman examined to-day to whose evidence I listened
with great pleasure, Mr. Morgan Laurenson. I do not mean that
what I am now to state should tell against him, but it is rather in
his favour; at least so far as I am to use it. At the time he left
Ollaberry, there were very considerable sums of money due
to him, certainly much more than I would have entrusted to a
population such as the general Shetland population. He had to
leave rather more suddenly than he expected, and he had not time
to collect his debts. A man from Ollaberry came over to me, and
I said, 'Are you sorry that Mr. Laurenson is going away from
you?'-He said no. I asked if it was true that the people about
Ollaberry were due him several hundreds of pounds?-He said,
'No; not we. He has had plenty out of us, he has had his profits
which might make up for all that.' I said, ' Then you are not
sorry?' and he said, 'I am not sorry for it at all.' That is just a
consequence of that sort of dealing.
7492. Was that man a type of the ordinary Shetlander?-Yes.
What he said to me was an instance of what results from this mode
of proceeding, and I give it as an illustration.
7493. Was he not an unusual kind of man who said that?-No; his
opinions are those which are privately held by nine-tenths of the
whole population of Shetland.
7494. Do they tell you so?-Yes, they tell me so, and I know their
sentiments quite well upon the subject.
7495. But Mr. Laurenson was only a partner of the firm, and the
whole of these debts would not be due to him individually?-I
understood he had certain debts that were due to himself, such as
for hosiery; at any rate it was in his name that the thing was stated.
7496. You think therefore that the system leads to species of
suspicion and a tendency to deceive?-Yes, and if you will allow
me, I will give you another illustration. There was a poor sailor
lad who died it few years ago, and a sum of about £5 or £6 was
sent through by the Board of Trade as having belonged to him.
The Board of Trade, for reasons which they are not ashamed to
own, take very good care about the payments that they shall be
made generally through the minister of the parish. This poor lad
had left a widowed father at home in this parish with a number of
children exceedingly helpless. I am not sure but that the father
was on the Parochial Board; if he was not, I think he ought to have
been, but I think he was. When the news came that his boy had
been drowned, the man came to me a distance of eight miles to
consult me, and he was very anxious about the way in which he
was to get the money through the Board of Trade. His great care
was that the merchant should not know anything about it, and
for that purpose he came to me in the dark. He had a little boy,
perhaps ten or twelve years old, whom he sent over after the
arrival of every post, but always in the dark. The boy had come so
far, that I asked him where he had come from. He told me where
he lived, so many miles distant, but he said he had been told not to
come until it was dark. I asked him why. He said, 'Because they
would know of it in the shop.' At last the man came over himself
in order to sign the documents, and he told me that the merchant
had already been at him to give him the money. Now a system
which produces such a mode of cheating one another must be
immoral.
7497. But I suppose the merchant was entitled to be paid for his
debt?-I'm only giving that as an illustration showing how
destructive the system is to the morality of the common people,
and I have only brought in the merchant because I could not give
the illustration without mentioning him.
7498. But you are speaking rather against the people at present
than against the merchant?-I am to tell the truth whatever will be
its effects.
7499. Did you advise the man not to pay the merchant?-I had
nothing to do with advising him. I gave him no advice whatever; it
was not part of my duty. I was merely employed by the Board of
Trade to hand over the money to him, and I did no more in the way
of advising him what to do with it than the Board of Trade would
have done. If he had asked me whether he should pay his debts, I
would have told him that every man should pay his debts.
7500. But did you advise him not to pay the merchant?-I did no
such thing.
7501. You left him to do as he liked with regard to that?-
Distinctly.
7502. Did you know anything about the nature of the account
which the merchant had against him?-Nothing whatever.
7503. Did you know that the account was due by him to the
merchant?-He told me he was afraid of the merchant which led
me to conclude at once that he had an account with him, but I
knew nothing more about it than that.
7504. You only inferred that he might have an account, and you
did not inquire further?-Quite so.
7505. Are you quite sure about that?-Perfectly sure. I knew
nothing about the nature of the account, or the amount of the
account, or what it was for, or anything about it.
7506. How long is it since that case happened?-It may have been
three or four years ago, I cannot be sure of the time.
7507. Do you say that in that case the account was paid?-I don't
know anything about that. The man only told me afterwards that
the merchant made him give it up. I knew nothing further about it
than that.
7508. You heard the evidence or the witnesses who were
examined yesterday?-I did.
7509. Do you think that, generally speaking, they gave a correct
description of their circumstances, and of the system on which
they carry on their dealings?-My opinion is that generally they
did not. From their private statements to me, it was my opinion-I
only hold it as an opinion-that they, under terror and under
influence, did not give the statements here which they ought to
have given, and which they had given to me in private.
7510. That is only an opinion which you have formed from your
experience of the statements of the people generally?-Yes; and
from conversations which I have had with these witnesses.
7511. One of the witnesses, Mrs. Hughson, was examined with
regard to statements made by her on a different occasion, and
which were rather different from the statements she made here: did
she make any different statement to you at any time from what she
made here yesterday?-Unless compelled, I would decline to say
anything that would criminate myself or her; but give it as my
opinion generally that the witnesses, without naming any of them,
gave a statement which I won't call untruthful, but which I say was
not at statement in accordance with what my convictions are that
they should have given, and I know the reason why.
7512. We don't in courts of law take a general [Page 181]
statement of that kind in contradiction of the veracity of witnesses.
It is only a matter of opinion; and although in this inquiry the legal
rules of evidence have not been so very strictly observed as in
courts of law, yet I think it is right to ask you whether on any
occasion Mrs. Hughson made a different statement to you than that
she made here?-With all respect to you and the office you hold, I
must decline to answer that question, because I consider it is a
question that might lead to consequences that I am not at all
disposed for the general good to be subjected to. You asked me
the question whether I approved generally of the evidence, and I
said no, I did not, but I declined to particularise any individual
person. But I will give you an illustration of the terror that is over
the people, and I won't say that that woman is not included among
those that are under that influence. I put a question to one man
concerning a very important matter in relation to what I am to
state to-day, and when I asked him to answer that question, the
woman of the house, a married woman, seized me by the arms and
exclaimed, 'Will that give offence to the merchant?-If it gives
offence to the merchant, then we won't open our mouths.' That
occurred only within the last ten days, and the same dread and
terror are over the whole community around Hillswick with very
few exceptions.
7513. What induces you to think that?-It is because they are all in
debt to the shop, less or more.
7514. If you were told that these men were not in debt, or that the
majority of them were not in debt, which may perhaps be proved
in this inquiry before it is finished, to what would you attribute
that terror then?-I cannot be told that; it cannot be proved against
the facts that I know with regard to the people.
7515. I am not saying anything about the facts, but I am merely
supposing the case that it is proved that the majority of the people
are not so much in debt as you say: how then would you account
for that terror?-I would say that if they were not very much in
debt, then that feeling would not exist. There would then be a very
different feeling among the people.
7516. May it be the case that that feeling arises from the certainty
in the minds of these people that in the future they may yet
require to run into debt to the merchant as they have done in the
past?-There is no doubt that to a certain extent that feeling
would operate, and they know, or at least they fear, and they have
stated so to me that the moment they said anything that would give
offence to the merchant, their credit would be stopped at once.
7517. Has the number of shops which exist in the district anything
to do with that feeling?-How many shops are there, may I ask?
7518. That is what I want you to tell me. Do you think that if the
shops were multiplied, and credit to be obtained at a greater
number of shops that feeling would not exist to the same extent?-
I would not be in favour of a multiplication of shops for the
purpose of getting them the means of credit. I would be in favour
of having free trade and giving no credit at all. If the number of
shops were multiplied in the way of free trade, then a wholesome
competition would be introduced, which I think would be an
advantage. But you asked me a question about how many shops
there are. Beginning at this part of the district, there is one at
Hillswick, and then there is one at Brae, and another at Olnafirth.
7519. Is there a shop at Brae?-Yes; a very considerable place of
business, one of the best in the country. Any other shops that may
exist in the district are commonly called peerie (<i.e.> small)
shops. They are very poor lads who have them, and what is more,
they are generally selling to one or other of these three big shops.
7520. What do they sell to the large shops?-If I were one of the
large shopkeepers, I would get a lad to open up a shop here and
take fish for me or to sell to me, and I would send him down
goods. The lad is apparently the merchant himself, but in reality
he is selling for another.
7521. Do you know any case of that sort?-Yes; I have known it
all my life.
7522. Do you know the individuals who are so connected with the
larger shops?-Yes. If I go west to Stenness I find a man selling
there, and if I ask him who he is selling for, he says, 'I am not the
merchant, I am selling for so and so.' I go to another one who is
apparently selling for himself, whereas it is well known that in
reality he is not selling for himself, but for another party. It is no
benefit for the population to have shops of that kind among them,
because there is no competition at all.
7523. Do they all sell for the larger merchants?-Yes; they are just
their menials or servants. I saw one of them examined yesterday.
7524. Do you know whether, in consequence of the cash payments
here, tea or other goods pass from hand to hand among the people
instead of money?-I am not aware of that. I only know about the
purchases from the shops. I do not know what the people do with
the articles after they get them.
7525. Is there any other way in which you think the present system
is injurious, or any other point on which you desire to make any
statement?-Besides being injurious in a moral point of view, the
system is also injurious by leading the husband and wife to have
separate accounts and separate transactions, and the children too.
The house, instead of being united, is in reality divided against
itself. Every member of the family has a separate interest; in that
way mutual dependence is destroyed, and that affection which
ought to subsist between children and parents has in a great
measure disappeared from Shetland. A boy gets an account of his
own when he is a mere child, or at least in boyhood, and as he
grows up he thinks he has only himself to provide for. He has not
that dependence or respect or affection for his parents which will
lead him, when old age comes to them, to provide for them. I
don't know any more prejudicial effect that any system can have
upon the community than to see the rising generation growing up
and their fathers neglected and despised, as they are in many cases
here. That feeling is produced very much among the young people
by the nature of their early training.
7526. Do you find that the parents are generally neglected by their
children, and that there is a difficulty in enforcing their obligation
to aliment their parents?-Yes; I find that very much, and any one
who is connected with the country must see it as well.
7527. Have you found that in the course of your ordinary
ministerial experience, or as a member of the Parochial Board?-
I have not been at the Parochial Board for years, but I am well
acquainted with the state of the poor who are on the roll. I will
give a case which occurred in this neighbourhood as an illustration
of what I mean. There was a woman who was on the Parochial
Board; she belonged originally to a very decent and respectable
family; her father was a small proprietor, but in the course of her
life she became very poor, and I am not sure that she was not
sometimes half demented. She had, I believe, three daughters in
this parish, they are still in the parish, grown up, and two of them I
think are mothers of families. None of them attended to their
mother, and she had to be taken by the Parochial Board and
boarded with the mother of the girl who was examined before me.
She was kept there, and she died there, and not one of her three
daughters who lived in the same parish ever came to the house
where she was lying to ask how their mother was. She died and
was buried, and not one of them came to look upon her face in the
coffin or at her grave.
7528. How far were the houses of those daughters from the place
where their mother lived?-I cannot tell exactly where they lived.
I think one of them lived about half-way between this and
Lochend, about six or seven miles from the place; another lived
near North Roe. I cannot be sure where the third one lived; but the
fact I have stated is one which is well known in the district.
7529. To what do you attribute that heartlessness [Page 182] on
the part of the daughters?-I consider it arose from their early
training produced by the system of credit.
7530. Is it not usually the case among the labouring classes, that
the children of a family, the daughters and the sons as well, are
virtually independent as soon as they begin to work for
themselves?-Where?
7531. In the agricultural districts of Scotland for instance?-No;
they are different altogether. I know about the agricultural
districts very well, and the children there, when they grow up and
go to service, the boys to herd cattle and the girls to be servants,
are away for half a year, and then they come home to school But
in this country, if a boy came home and went to school, he would
have to pay for himself. I was once a schoolmaster in one of the
agricultural districts for about four years, and, so far as I know, the
children there when they came home were not made to pay for
their own schooling or for their maintenance, but they just entered
into the family again the same as they were before they went out.
They would be away for perhaps half a year, and then they came
back again, not to lounge about idle, but to be with their parents
and to cherish and nourish them. That was the result of my four
years' experience of teaching in a large parochial establishment.
7532. What becomes of the earnings of the children in these
agricultural districts? Are they not at liberty to do with their
earnings as they please?-Certainly; and there is no doubt they
expend them upon clothing and things of that kind, just as they
require them.
7533. And just as they do here?-No; it is very different here.
They have all got accounts here, and these boys are all in debt. I
have seldom met with a boy at the beach who was not in debt at
the end of the service When I asked a boy what was the state of
matters with him, he generally told me that he was due something
to the merchant, but no such thing can take place with the children
in the south. They get no credit, no books, no accounts.
7534. We had at specimen of that yesterday where a man told us
he had been a boy at the beach, and that he had incurred debt
while he was very young?-Yes; and it is impossible that it could
be otherwise. Look at the little fee they get. They have to
maintain themselves, and I would like to know how they can do
that without being in debt.
7535. Do you think that sufficiently accounts for instances of
heartlessness such as you have mentioned just now? Might such
things not happen in any district with particular individuals?-It
might happen to a certain extent, but not so generally as it does
here.
7536. Do you say that the instance you have mentioned is only one
of many instances of similar conduct?-It is only one of many that
could be produced.
7537. Is there any other point to which you wish to speak?-Yes.
I may say that I have read over carefully the evidence that was
taken in Edinburgh, and that I concur entirely with the evidence
given there by Mr. George Smith, Mr. John Walker, and Mr.
Edmonstone of Buness. If there is any part of that evidence with
which I don't agree, it is very trifling indeed. In Mr. Walker's
evidence, this question was put to him:-' 44,368. But the greater
portion of that is not paid in coin?' I want to qualify the answer
which he made to that question. I think there has been a mistake
of the printer there, and perhaps the next sentence qualifies it. If
the next sentence is a qualification, then I agree with the whole of
the answer, so far as my knowledge goes of the country. The
question and the answer read thus:-'But the greater portion of
that is not paid in coin?-Not a fraction of it.' I would not go so
far as to say that not a fraction of it is paid in coin; but the next
sentence is, 'If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it
is an extraordinary thing;' and if that is taken as a qualification of
the first part of the answer, then I agree with it entirely, as well as
with the rest of Mr. Walker's evidence.
7538. Do you agree with this statement in answer to question
44,364: 'The eggs are the woman's part, she looks after the eggs
and butter, and considers them her peculiar share'?-I concur with
that entirely.
7539. Do you know whether it is the practice of the district that the
woman generally has a separate account for the butter and eggs?-
That is the case, so far as I know.
7540. Does she take the proceeds of the eggs and butter?-Yes. I
sometimes met a little girl going along to the shop with some eggs,
and she would tell me that she was going to the shop with them. I
would meet her again coming back, and among other things she
would have a little bag with her in which there would be some
hard biscuits and tea. That would be what she was carrying back
in exchange for the eggs.
7541. But these goods would go into the common stock for the
maintenance of the family?-Yes; but I am told by the people that
these articles do not form part of the husband's account.
7542. Still it does not make any separation between the interests of
the husband and wife if the proceeds of the butter and eggs go for
the maintenance of the family, just as the husband's earnings
do?-But there is a separation, and I will give an illustration of it.
Suppose a husband had to go to church with a dirty shirt, and he
would say to his wife, 'You might have had a clean shirt for me
to-day, my dear, to go to church with;' and she would reply, 'My
butter and my eggs were not sufficient to get soap and soda; and
therefore you must go to church with the shirt you have on,' that
shows a separate interest between them. I give that, not as an
actual case, but as a supposition which, sufficiently answers your
question, and I think it goes to show a separate interest.
7543. Is there any other point to which you refer?-Yes. Mr.
Smith says, in his evidence, that barter is hurtful to the
independence of the people very much; with that I entirely
agree. He says again, 'It destroys the independence of the
people very much; they get careless.' I entirely agree with that
else and can give illustrations of it. The next question is 'Does it
encourage extravagance?-I should think it does, very much; they
don't know the value of money.' There never was greater truth
written than that, and Mr. Smith deserves great credit for stating it.
7544. Can you give me any illustration of that?-I know a case
where a poor man and his family came in and took possession of
from £70 to £90-I don't know the exact sum by the death of a
brother. They got a book in the shop; the money never came into
their hands at all, but so long as it lasted the book ran on, and I
don't believe it was twelve months when the whole was exhausted,
and they were in misery. That showed that they did not know the
value of money. I will give another illustration which is worse
than that. Another man came into possession of £230 or by the
death of a relative in England. He got the money into his hands,
and came to consult me as to what he should do with it. I said,
'When you have got so much money, you should lay it out and get
5 per cent. for it; and if you get that, then the interest will pay the
rent of your land, and with your own labour and that of your wife
and daughters, you may keep the amount all the days of your life,
and you can hand down the £230 to your children.' He said, 'I am
determined to do everything you have advised, and that money
shall go down to my children, so far as I am concerned.' Twelve
months had not passed over when that man had to be rouped out,
and left the neighbourhood without any means; which proves what
Mr. Smith said, that they don't know the value of money.
7545. How did that man spend it?-I don't know, but it was all
gone.
7546. Do you find that the women dress more expensively here
than they do in other places?-I think very much more so.
7547. Do you think that a woman who knits, and who has a
separate account of her own in the women's book, is induced to
spend more of her earnings on dress than she would otherwise
do?-Yes; arising from the fact that, to a great extent at least,
they can only get clothing for their knitting.
7548. It is quite true that in Lerwick only soft [Page 183] goods
are given for knitting; but in this district there is a difference, and
provisions are also given in exchange for it?-There may be a
little provisions given but I can assure you, from my knowledge of
the people, that that is not a general thing. It is in cottons and soft
goods generally that the hosiery is paid for.
7549. But do the women dress more expensively than they need to
do?-I think so; and they are influenced to do that by the way in
which the system is carried on. There are things kept in the shops
to catch their fancy, and when they take their knitting in they are
shown some dresses, and they fix upon one. They have already
told you that they get no money; and they have told me that they
can get no money although they were to ask for it. Now, a girl in
the south may dress very well, and servants there do dress very
respectably; but I know servants in the south who don't make
more money in the course of a year than a woman makes here by
knitting, and yet they have considerable sums the bank, while that
is not the case here.
7550. You say the women go into the shops, and are induced to
buy by having goods exposed to them in that way: how do you
know that?-I know it by them telling me how they get them, both
here and at Lerwick.
7551. Have you asked them how they happened to have so many
fine dresses?-I asked a man, who had a very industrious family of
daughters, where they got this fine thing and the next fine thing,
and he told me.
7552. You are now speaking of a particular case?-Yes. He said
they are very industrious, and when they have got a certain
quantity of work done they go to Lerwick with it; and they go
into this shop and see this fine thing, and go into the next shop
and see the next fine thing. I said, 'Do they get any money?' and
he said, 'Not one single farthing.' When I asked him why, he said:
'I don't know; but they want it, and I have to give them money to
take them into Lerwick.'
7553. You were speaking of a system of terrorism which prevails,
or is alleged to prevail, here: if that terrorism exists, how do you
account for witnesses coming forward and speaking at all?-But
what have they said?
7554. We had two or three men who were not cited?-I saw one
man here who was not by any means a representative of the
ordinary tenants. He was not a representative of the class among
whom he lives.
7555. Have you seen many fishermen here during the last day or
two?-Not very many.
7556. I have been a little at it loss myself to know why fewer
people have appeared here than at other places with even less
population. Can you give me any explanation of it?-They told
me beforehand that they dursn't come, and that they would not
come; and I will give you an illustration. I went into the house of
a man who had been complaining to me about his debts at the
shops, and about the misery he was in; and when I got the notice to
see what witnesses would come forward and give evidence, I said
to myself, 'This man who has complained so much to me will
surely come forward.' I went to him, and in presence of his family
I asked whether he would give evidence before you. I did not tell
him to do so, but said, 'If you are willing now to state your
grievances, you have an opportunity of doing so.' The man stood
up and trembled, and said, ''Mr. Sutherland, it is the truth that you
have said! It is the truth that we are crushed; but I am in such a
position with the merchant that I dare not do it.' I went to another
man, and said, 'You have been crying about your miseries: will
you come forward and state them now?' He said, 'Yes, I will
come forward and state them.' I said, 'You are not in debt, are
you?'-'Yes, I am in debt.' 'How much are you in debt?' 'I am in
debt £13 down at the shop;' and this man had not thirteen placks.
Then, to show that what Mr. Smith said about the system
destroying their idea of the value of money was true, I turned to
the wife and said, 'Have you £13 of debt?-and she said, 'Is that
all?-that's nothing.' I mention that to show the woman's
appreciation of the value of debt.
7557. Is that the way in which you account for the small
attendance on this occasion on the part of the fishermen, and
their apparent want of interest in it?-Yes; I attribute it to that
wholly and to nothing else.
7558. I must say that although the meeting here has been intimated
throughout the parish, yet I believe it has been somewhat less
extensively intimated, in consequence of the distance of the place
from Lerwick, than it would otherwise have been. Is not that
sufficient to account for the absence of the men?-No; there have
been people here from North Roe, and from Stenness, and from
Ollaberry.
7559. But these were cited?-They may have been, but all the
people knew about it quite well. Again, I sent for three or four
parties who lived not two miles from the schoolhouse, and had
them over with me, and said, 'You have complained bitterly about
your condition before: will you come now and give information
about it?' They said, 'We will do it;' but two or three days
afterwards one of them came back and said he would not do it,
as it would just make their case worse.
7560. I believe you have taken a great interest in this matter
yourself?-I have only taken an interest in it for the welfare of the
poor people of this country.
7561. But you have long held strong opinions as to the distress
prevailing in Shetland?-I have; and when an opportunity was
given to me, I have always condemned the system which existed.
7562. When you received the circular from me, which was sent to
all the merchants and clergymen throughout the country, you
replied that you were willing to come forward as a witness, and
you sent me a list of witnesses?-I did.
7563. Since then you have been taking some trouble in the matter,
and have been speaking to people about coming forward and
giving evidence?-Yes; and I did everything I could to get them to
come forward. All I wanted was to get them to come here and tell
the truth, whatever it might be. If you will allow me will give
another illustration of the terrorism which exists. If I buy corn or
straw from any person in this neighbourhood for my horse or my
cows, I would only get it delivered to me in the dark, because the
people are afraid the merchants would know about it. I always get
it in the dark, and I pay down the money for it at once.
7564. Do you swear that you never got corn delivered to you
except in the dark which you have purchased for your horse and
cows?-I have sworn already to the fact. There is no person in
Hillswick who will sell corn and bring it to me except in the dark.
If the people live at a distance, then it is different. There is a man
who lives outside the dyke at Hillswick, Harry Gilbertson, who has
a little straw, and he will sometimes bring some of it to me, but he
is not one of the persons to whom I am referring. It is those living
within the dyke of Hillswick who would not bring corn to me
except in the dark.
7565. Are your dealings in corn numerous?-Not very numerous;
but some years there is a good deal of it.
7566. Have you to buy the corn you require in small quantities?-I
cannot get it except in small quantities; just what the people can
spare to me.
7567. You have given me in private the name of one party who
sold corn to you and delivered it in the dark?-Yes; and there are
many others.
7568. Do you deal, or have you dealt, with any of the shops in this
neighbourhood?-For many years I have not dealt with any of
them, except when I happened to be out of goods. I get my goods
twice a-year from the south, but when I am out of any particular
article I purchase it here.
7569. Is it a common practice with the families of clergymen and
others in the same position in Shetland to get their supplies from
the south?-So far as I know, it is.
[Page 184]
7570. Why is that done?-I cannot afford to buy articles here; they
are too dear for me. My stipend would not afford to pay for them.
7571. Do you know if the same reason operates in the case of your
fellow-clergymen?-I don't know, but they have often spoken
about it. In the first place, I hold the goods to be, as might be
expected, inferior in quality, to the goods I would like. I don't
blame the merchants for not having goods of better quality,
because their customers perhaps would not be in the way of buying
them; but I could not afford to buy from the merchants here in
consequence of the tremendous percentage which they charge
upon their goods.
7572. In speaking of the apprehension which exists in the district, I
understand you to refer merely to the state of mind of the people
with whom you have come in contact. You don't know of
anything on the part of the merchants which justifies that
apprehension?-I don't want to go into that. I only say that
that feeling is produced among the people by the state of their
accounts, and by the fact that they are in debt to the merchant. I
don't know that the merchant does anything to produce it. I am
not accusing him at all.
7573. You are not accusing him of actively bringing about that
state of terror?-No; I only say it is the system which brings it
about. I don't refer to any one merchant more than another; it is
the system I object to.
7574. Are you aware whether legal proceedings are frequent in
cases where people are in debt to the merchants?-I have known
several cases of that kind.
7575. Are they frequent in proportion to the indebtedness of the
people?-I don't think that, taking the whole accounts that are due
they are so frequent or half so frequent as they would require to be,
in order to correct this evil.
7576. You think that, if decree was taken oftener against people
who are in debt, the thing would be little mended?-I think it
would tend that way; at least it would be the beginning of the end
of it.
7577. Do you think the merchants may be too tender to their
customers?-No doubt of it, and that for the purposes which are
explained by the gentlemen whose evidence I agree with. I
condemn the system altogether, apart from the men who carry it
on. I don't care who the men are; I defy men to be any better than
what I find around me, but the system would make them what they
are on both sides.
7578. Have you ever had accounts yourself with any of the
merchants here?-Not for many years. I might have small
accounts for things which had been got from the shop when I
was in the south; but, during the first and second years when I
was here, I had large accounts to pay, because I had everything
to buy from them, and I did not know about how things were
conducted in this part of the country.
7579. With reference to parties who are in debt to the merchants,
we had a witness yesterday who stated that he had been sued for a
debt: had you any intercourse with that man in the way of advising
him with regard to the conduct of his case?-None whatever. He
was summoned, and the proceedings were going on before ever I
heard of it. He and another person came to me, but I refused to
give them any advice, and told them to go and get a lawyer to
defend themselves. It was very natural for them, in their
circumstances, to come and consult the clergyman, and ask
him what they should do, but I refused to interfere.
7580. Have you had any dealings with men with regard to
payments from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, or any
society of that kind?-I know something about that. In one
case, I remember, there was a considerable loss at sea; more
than one boat was wrecked, and a great many men perished,
and there was a great deal of sympathy excited in the south.
7581. When was that?-It was a good many years ago-about the
time I came here, or a little after. A great deal of sympathy was
excited in the south, as is generally the case, and a considerable
amount of money was collected for the widows and orphans, and
handed over to the merchant who was principally concerned in the
fishery. One of the widows lived beside a minister to whom she
came and complained about the way in which the money was dealt
with. The people knew the amount which had been collected, and
her share was £6 odds. The minister wrote to the merchant whose
boats had been lost, saying that the widow was dying for want, and
asking whether he would send her her share of the money that had
been collected I believe the answer he got back from the merchant
was, 'The first time you come near this, come in and I shall show
you the £6 odds marked to her late husband's credit.' Is it for that
purpose that charity is given in the south?
7582. Do you think that was a misappropriation the money, or
was it not a legal right of the merchant that he should have his
debt paid?-That, I suppose would depend upon the purpose for
which the subscription was made. The money was collected by
the benevolent in the south for the purpose of aiding the widows
and children of the men who had been lost, and not to be paid in
liquidation of the merchant's account due by the dead husband.
7583. That might raise a nice legal question?-It might; but I want
this to go out to the world, so that the eyes of the people in the
south may be opened to how their charity is applied: I can give
more cases the same kind.
7584. That was not a case where the money came from the
Shipwrecked Mariners' Society?-No; it was a private
subscription. I knew another case where several boats were
lost, and where very great sympathy, as in the first case, was
excited, and a considerable sum of money was collected. As it
happens, the money fell into the hands of the merchant who had
owned the boats. It was distributed according to the judgment of
the merchant and of the clergyman, but the clergyman was never
consulted about the distribution or allocation of a single penny,
and, so far as he was ever able to find out., it was kept in the shop.
That is case which I know about, because I was the clergyman.
7585. How long ago was that?-I have noted it being in 1849. My
own contribution to the fund was one guinea; and I ask, is it for
this that the benevolent are to give their contributions for
Shetland?
7586. Perhaps the benevolent might be of opinion that the fairest
way of doing would be to pay the debts of the deceased, if the
widows and children were liable for them?-I am not speaking of
the legality of the thing, or how the case might stand in law, but I
am speaking of the purpose for which I gave my contribution of
one guinea; and I know that I would not have given one farthing
for such a purpose as that money was applied to.
7587. A subscription of that kind might be regarded as an
alimentary debt, not attachable by creditors?-That is my
opinion. Another case happened, in which a contribution was
made in favour of a very old man, to whose house an accident had
happened. £3, 10s. was contributed for that man, to which I gave
10s.; and I was always hearing that that sum had not been applied
in the way in which I at least had intended that it should be; but in
case they might have been telling me what was not true, I went to
the man in order to be sure that anything I might state here was
quite correct.
7588. How long was that after the subscription had been
collected?-It is perhaps two or three years since it was collected,
but it is only a week ago since I went to the man.
7589. Did you go to him with a view to this inquiry?-It was after
I got the notice that the meetings were to be held that I went to
him. I went in to the man and said, 'John, did you ever get any of
that money?'-He stood up and said, 'I went and said that I was
starving and had nothing to eat, and I got one lispund of meal and
two ounces of tea, and that is all the reckoning I ever got for it.'
7590. Who collected the money in that case?-My money was
paid to the merchant at Hillswick.
[Page 185]
7591. Do you mean Mr. Anderson?-It was given over to that
establishment, I know. I said, 'Is that all you have got, John?'
'Yes.' 'And where did the money go?' 'The money went to the
credit of my son-in-law, Andrew Thomason.'
7592. Was Andrew Thomason supporting the old man at that
time?-The old man is on the Parochial Board now; but
Thomason himself had been in the utmost misery for at least a
couple of years.
7593. Did you say anything to the son-in-law about that?-He was
the first person I met when I went to see the old man; and when I
met him, I said, 'What was done with the £3, 10s.?' or whatever
was the amount. He said he could not say. I said, 'Did John get
the money?' He replied, 'Oh, yes; surely he did.' I said, 'Will you
swear that?' and he said, 'Oh, swearing is a different thing.' I then
told him I must see John; but he said, 'You cannot see him; he is
in such a state without clothes that he is not fit to be seen,' and he
ran off to John; but I was as able to run as he was, and I was in and
had a hold of John's hand before the son-in-law could get a hold of
him. It was the wife of that man Thomason who, as I mentioned,
seized me by the arm, and said, 'Oh, sir, will that give offence to
the merchant.'
7594. Where do these persons live?-At Hillswick.
7595. Is the old man able to come here to be examined?-He is 85
years of age, and I don't believe he would be able.
7596. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I have noted a case
in connection with the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society which I
may be allowed to give. A man here had a boat which was either
wrecked or broken, or so destroyed as to be useless. He had paid
into the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society for three years, and he
applied to the agent here to get his proportion of what was to be
given for the boat. The man's statement to me was, that for a
while he asked whether he had anything to get from the Society,
either to procure a new boat or to repair the old one. He was told
that he had 30s. to get; but the merchant, who was also the agent,
said to him, 'I have put it to the credit of your account.' I want to
make that statement in order that it may go forth to the world
whether the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society choose to allow their
payments to go in liquidation of such debts. That may be the case,
but I hold a strong opinion that the Society meant to do no such
thing.
7597. It has been explained that such a payment of the
Shipwrecked Mariners' Society has been put to the man's
account, but that it was only done in a case where the account
was due for the boat which had been lost. Is it not quite a natural
thing that the merchant, in the case that is supposed, might very
fairly put the money to the account of the boat which had been
lost, and then supply it new boat upon credit in the same way as he
had supplied the old one?-But the man has no boat. What I mean
by giving this evidence is, in order that the Shipwrecked Mariners'
Society may understand how the money which they pay is applied
by their agents here. If they think it is it right appropriation of the
money, then, of course, I have no fault to find with it.
7598. Do you know whether there is any rule of the Society
prohibiting such a use of the money?-I don't know; but if it was
a right transaction, then it is quite right that it should be known.
7599. Did you hear the evidence given by Mr. Greig this
morning?-I did.
7600. He said something about marking the horns of cattle for a
debt: are you acquainted with the existence of such it practice?-I
am. I have seen the cattle driven down to a place in my own
neighbourhood, and kept there for a night and marked.
7601. Do you think there is any objection to that practice? Is
there any reason why a man should not secure his debt by taking
possession of the cattle of his debtor?-I hold that there ought to
be no such seizure, and no such clandestine way of securing a
man's debt. There are processes of law open to a man for securing
his debt, if he chooses to avail himself of them.
7602. But the thing is done with the consent of the debtor?-That
may be said, but my opinion is, that the debtor is not in a position
to refuse; and in cases where it is done, it is done not only for the
purpose of securing the man himself, but to keep the cattle from
falling into the hands of another man to whom a debt is due.
7603. Are you speaking of cases which you know?-Yes.
Suppose I have cattle, and I am due you an account, and you
give me provisions at your shop, perhaps another man, to whom
I am also in debt, won't be so liberal, and I will tell you to come
and mark my cattle and let the other man whistle. That is the way
in which it is done. Now, such a practice is most immoral in its
effects.
7604. In what way?-Because this man cheats the other one. I
should have made a fair failure, and then both men would have got
a share of the balance I could pay.
7605. Do you know whether the price credited to the debtor in
such a case is generally a fair price?-I have no means of knowing
that.
7606. Is the price ascertained by a public sale?-It may be in some
cases, but I know in many cases it is not.
7607. Do you think that, for the introduction of ready-money
system, a multiplication of banks would be necessary?-I don't
think it.
7608. Does not the fact that banks only exist in Lerwick act as a
bar to the introduction of such a system?-No; I think that
difficulty could easily be met. For instance, the Union Bank at
Lerwick had their principal institution at the top of the town; but
when opposition came, they opened small shop in the principal
street in Lerwick, and they have now two offices there, a small one
and a large one. Now, if the credit system were put an end to, for
the sake of both parties, both merchants and people, there would
soon be a small bank opened at Hillswick, if it should be nowhere
else.
7609. How do people do with regard to banking just now?-The
banking is very easily conducted, so far as I know, because the
people have little money in their hands.
7610. Don't you know that many fishermen have large accounts in
the bank in Lerwick already?-I know that some of the fishermen
have a little there; but I know that the large accounts are not in the
banks. I know from their statements where they get 5 per cent. for
their money, and that is not from the bank.
7611. Where do they get that?-I won't mention any particular
place, but they get it from the merchants in Shetland.
7612. Are there many men who are in a position have accounts of
that kind with the merchants?-Several of them of the better class
have told me about that themselves.
7613. Are these the one-fourth or one-third of the whole whom
you mentioned, or a part of them?-They don't make one-fourth
of the whole. The parties who could have such accounts would
not perhaps come to one-sixth of the whole. Of course, I am
speaking generally when I give that proportion.
7614. Do you mean that it is only one-sixth of the one-third who
are well-doing, that have such accounts?-I should say it would
not be more than one-sixth of the one-third who had them.
7615. Are there many public-houses in your parish?-No; properly
speaking, there are no public-houses at all. There are shops where
spirits are sold, but there is no public-house. At Hillswick, for
instance, there is a shop with a back-shop to which the men go
round and get whisky.
7616. But not to be consumed on the premises?-I never was
there; but I understand the men do drink in that back place. I
know that from their own statements to me.
7617. Does each merchant who keeps a shop and cures fish, have a
grocer's licence?-No; I think there are licences in North Roe and
Ollaberry as well as here. I may give a statement with regard to
whisky [Page 186] since it has been mentioned. I hold in my hand
the account of a fisherman for goods supplied to him at the shop;
and I find that, during the six months over which it extends, the
value of the whisky supplied was 14s. 10d. The way in which it
came into my hands was this: A gentleman in the south was
responsible for the account, and when it was sent to him, he was
so horrified about it that he sent it from Edinburgh to me to inquire
into, and I saw the people.
7618. How long was that since?-I think it is about three years
ago. I sent the account to a merchant in the south to analyze it, so
that I might report to the gentleman. I got back an analysis of it,
with this written upon it: 'This account cannot be made payable in
any court of law;' and the grounds for that opinion were stated to
be, that there had been nothing weighed and nothing measured in
the account, and they held that no account could be made payable
in law that was neither measured nor weighed.
7619. Have you a copy of that account?-No; but I can give the
name of the party in Edinburgh who got it. What I mention it for,
is to show that there was 14s. 10d. charged for <aqua> in six
months in various small sums. There was also a large sum paid
in cash; and I was so struck with that, as the man was not married,
that I went to another person who was acquainted with the manner
in which business was carried on in Shetland, and asked him what
was meant by so much cash being paid. He said, 'Oh, that is
money which is borrowed in the one shop and drunk in the other.'
That is the explanation I got, whether it was true or not.
7620. But that was the explanation of a third party who had no
concern with the account?-Yes. When I sent the document to the
gentleman in Edinburgh, he said he would pay that amount, but he
would pay no more; and after that he sent me £5 a-year, from
which I make payments to the man every month.
7621. In this account there is £1, 14s. 10d. and £1, 14s. 2d. in
cash which you say was also spent in whisky?-I was only told
about that by a party who said he knew about the same thing
having been done. In this account there is 2s. 6d. entered for
sweeties, verifying what was said in some of the evidence, that
sweeties were given to make up the balance. With regard to
whisky, I may explain that I had some whisky tested by a qualified
party, which I believe was sold in the shops at 9d. per gill. The
profit upon that, on being tested, was found to be 55 per cent. I
also had tea sent and tested, for which the people had paid 3s. per
pound, and the proper judge, to whom I sent it, sent me word that
it was exactly 2s. tea, there being 50 per cent. of profit charged
upon it.
7622. Who tested the tea?-A tea merchant in Aberdeen.
7623. Who tested the whisky?-A spirit-dealer also in Aberdeen.
I sent these articles to be tested in order to show the enormous
prices which are charged by these merchants. I have no interest in
the matter myself, except that my poor parishioners should not pay
more than they ought to pay, and also that an end might be put to a
system which is injurious both to merchants and people.
7624. What remedy would you propose for the existing state of
matters, and for the evils which are alleged to exist?-My remedy
would be to declare the present truck system to be penal.
7625. What would you desire to be penal?-The truck system.
7626. But the truck system, properly so called, is penal; and the
question in this inquiry is, whether other things are to be included
within the operation of the Acts which apply to the truck
system?-Well, I mean that this system of carrying on business
in Shetland should be declared to be penal.
7627. Do you mean that you would make it penal to give long
credit for shop goods?-I would make it penal to give any credit at
all, and I would admit either party to give evidence against the
other party for infringement of that statute, and would be to make
all debts so incurred irrecoverable by any process of law. These
three things are what I think would form a remedy for the present
state of matters. At the same time, I am just as convinced that
the merchant ought to live, and must live, and have a reasonable
profit, as I am that the people should not pay more for their articles
than they are worth.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JAMES BRUCE,
examined.
7628. You are the schoolmaster of this parish, and inspector
of poor?-I am.
7629. How long have you been inspector of poor?-For
twenty-two years.
7630. I understand the number of paupers in this parish is
fifty-three?-Yes; exclusive of dependants. I now exhibit an
abstract of the accounts for all the time I have been in the
office of inspector, which I keep for any own satisfaction and
the satisfaction the Board.
7631. Do you think the amount of pauperism in the parish has
diminished or increased in your experience?-I think it has kept
very much about the same some years back.
7632. Do you think that pauperism is increased or affected in any
way by habits arising from the system of protracted credit which
exists in the parish, or have you formed any opinion at all upon the
subject?-I have formed no opinion upon that, but I know that the
Poor-Law has acted very injuriously upon the parish by increasing
the expenses.
7633. That is to say, it has acted injuriously as regards those who
pay the assessment, whatever it may have done with regard to the
condition of the paupers themselves?-Yes. For a long time after
the passing of the Act, we kept on the old system of quartering and
paying the paupers through the session fund, and so on, and the
heritors generally contributed a certain amount yearly to meet any
balance due.
7634. I presume the payments made to the paupers are made in
money?-Yes; all in money, except clothing, which is taken round
to them.
7635. How long has that system prevailed?-Since the Poor-Law
came into operation in the parish.
7636. Since 1845?-Not since 1845; nor for several years
afterward. The legal assessment, I think, came on in 1861.
7637. You say that all clothing to the paupers is furnished by the
inspector?-Yes; furnished by myself.
7638. Where is it purchased?-At any of the shops in the district,
generally where the paupers live. Anything that is required for
paupers in North Roe I generally purchase from Mr. Greig.
7639. In this district where is it purchased?-Generally at
Hillswick, from Mr. Anderson.
7640. Is there any other place except these two shops where it is
purchased?-Yes; at Ollaberry and Lochend from Mr. Laurenson.
7641. You purchase it yourself and deliver it to the paupers?-
Yes.
7642. When their allowances are due in money, are they paid in
money?-Yes; they call up for it-all those who are round me. At
North Roe I send a cheque to Mr. Greig previous to the time for
the amount to be distributed.
7643. If a pauper is unable to come here, how is his allowance
conveyed to him?-They generally send their tickets, and I send
the money by any person who can convey it. It is paid on tickets.
7644. What kind of ticket?-It is just an account of the allowances
given to the paupers, and it is authorized by the Board of
Supervision. It is the receipt for the money. The pauper keeps
the ticket in his own possession, and whenever I get the ticket I
pay the money, and mark it on the back. The pauper comes
himself, if able and if not he sends the ticket.
7645. Was the allowance never paid by means of orders for meal?
-Previous to the legal assessment [Page 187] coming into
operation in the parish in 1861, it was sometimes paid in that
way, and sometimes in cash.
7646. Has it ever been paid by an order for meal or food since
then?-Not to my recollection, except it may be in the case of the
applicants for casual relief, or applicants coming to me seeking
relief before the meeting of the Board. In that case, sometimes,
but not often, I would give an order for a little meal. I generally do
that when I have not sufficient confidence in the economy of the
party, and when I think the allowance may be put to some other
use than the purchase of meal or necessaries.
7647. Has it never been paid to paupers regularly on the roll by
means of an order upon the shop?-No; not since the Act came
into operation in the parish.
7648. Are you quite sure of that?-I think I am perfectly sure, so
far as my recollection goes.
7649. Have any of the paupers on the roll ever asked you to
give them a line or an order on the shop for meal or other
requirements?-No; not to my recollection. They always get
their cash.
7650. Have you ever had occasion to transact business with
paupers, or to make payment of their allowances at the shop at
Hillswick, or at any of the shops in the neighbourhood?-No; I
don't practise that at all.
7651. Has it ever been done?- Very seldom, I think.
7652. But it may have been done?-At the last month's pay there
were two poor women living about five miles from this, who, I
knew, could not come themselves, and I was doubtful that they
might not get a person to come for them; therefore I sent word to
them to send their ticket to Mr. Anderson and get the money. That
was only done on one occasion.
7653. That is the only occasion within your recollection?-Yes.
Mr. Anderson generally draws the money for me from the bank;
and when I run out of change, I send down the pauper to him with
a note for money; but that does not often happen. It is simply
when I am out of change.
7654. Mr. Anderson merely acts as your banker?-Yes.
7655. He draws the money as the chairman of the Board?-Yes;
and it is handy for me, because I get the small change from him
that I require.
7656. How often does it happen in the course of a year that you
give an order of that sort?-I could not say how often it happens. I
only remember one other instance of it just now, besides the one I
have referred to. The person called here, and I did not have the
change; and as the person was going to Hillswick, I gave a note on
Mr. Anderson to give the money. But it is not at all a common
practice.
[The sitting was here adjourned till the evening.]
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR HARRISON,
examined.
7657. You are a merchant at Hillswick?-Yes, at Urrafirth.
7658. You were for some years in the employment of Mr.
Anderson at Hillswick?-Yes.
7659. And you are now in business on your own account at
Urrafirth?-Yes.
7660. Do you employ any fishermen?-No.
7661. Are you in business in the drapery and provision line?-No;
I only deal in groceries.
7662. Do you not keep any soft goods at all?-Yes; I have a few
pieces of cotton.
7663. You are just beginning business?-Yes.
7664. Had you any difficulty in getting shop accommodation?-
Yes, a little.
7665. In what way? Was it not easy to find a shop in this
parish?-No; it was not easy.
7666. How so?-The heritor did not wish to give it to me; and I
had a lease saying that I was not to commence business.
7667. You had a lease of what?-Of a bit of ground which I held.
7668. Was it a lease of the premises you now possess?-Yes.
7669. When did you take that lease?-Fourteen years ago.
7670. You have lived there for fourteen years, and had a piece of
ground?-Yes.
7671. And the lease prohibited you from carrying on any shop
business?-Yes; but the heritor allowed me to cure fish, and to
keep a little to supply the people whom I employed.
7672. In what way did you employ them?-I employed them, and
paid them every Saturday night.
7673. In what business?-In curing fish-drying Faroe cod. I
don't buy the cod; I cure it for Mr. Adie.
7674. Is that your principal occupation?-Yes.
7675. And the landlord agreed to allow you to keep small shop for
supplying provisions to these men?-Yes.
7676. Is that all you are doing now?-Yes.
7677. Did you receive a letter from the Busta trustees, forbidding
you to carry on a shop business there, or stating that you could not
be allowed to hold the premises for the purpose of doing so?-No,
I received no letter; but in my lease it is stated that I am not to
carry on anything but the curing business.
7678. But you had that fourteen years ago?-Yes.
7679. Have you had any communication with the Busta trustees, or
with any one of them, on the subject since you took your lease?-
Yes.
7680. With whom?-With Mr. Gifford and Mr. Hay.
7681. Was that communication in writing?-No; it was personally
with them at Busta.
7682. Did you apply to them for leave to carry on a more extensive
business in the way of a shop?-No; I did not apply for anything
more than what I got.
7683. What was it you went to see them about?-I went to ask for
liberty to cure fish, and keep a small store.
7684. When did you do so?-About November 1869.
7685. Was that shortly after you left Mr. Anderson's
employment?-No; it was before.
7686. Did they grant you that permission?-Yes; latterly it was
granted.
7687. But it was not granted to you at first?-No.
7688. For what reason?-I don't know for what reason.
7689. Did they not assign a reason for not granting you that
permission?-Yes. I think they said it was too near Hillswick.
7690. What was the meaning of that?-That the starting of another
business there might reduce the value of Hillswick, and therefore it
would not pay such a rent.
7691. Did you understand from that, that in granting Mr. Anderson
a lease of the premises at Hillswick, they had become bound not to
allow any other shops to be opened in the district?-No; they did
not say anything like that.
7692. Was it with Mr. Gifford this conversation took place?-Yes.
7693. Was it implied that they had some reason for not interfering
with Mr. Anderson's business?-Yes; at least the reason he gave
was not so much that it would interfere with Mr. Anderson's
business, as that it would bring down the rent of Hillswick, and
would not advance the property anything.
7694. Do you mean that if you were to open a shop there, the
necessary result would be that Mr. Anderson would require to have
his rent reduced?-Yes; that is likely to have been what was
meant.
7695. How long after that was it when you got permission to open
your present shop?-I don't know exactly how long it was.
Perhaps it may have been a month or two after it was spoken of
first. I then got [Page 188] liberty to cure the fish and keep
provisions for the men I employed; that was all.
7696. But only for the men you employed?-That was all the
liberty I got.
7697. Are you not allowed to sell to anybody except the people
you employ?-I never asked any more liberty than that.
7698. When you first went to ask for that permission, had you
made arrangements to cure fish for Mr. Adie?-No.
7699. Had you made the arrangement by the second time you
went?-Yes.
7700. Did you say to Mr. Gifford, when you went the second time,
that you had made such an arrangement?-Yes; I told him I had
got the offer of fish to cure.
7701. Was he more ready to grant your application on that
occasion?-Yes. He said I could take the work.
7702. Had you spoken to Mr. Anderson about the matter in the
interval?-I don't remember; perhaps I might.
7703. You were trying to set up your business at that time?-Yes.
7704. Don't you remember whether you applied to Mr. Anderson
with regard to that matter at all?-Yes. I believe I told him then
what had passed between me and Mr. Gifford at first.
7705. Did Mr. Anderson then agree to withdraw any objection he
might have to it?-He did not say anything about that.
7706. In what way did you come to make an arrangement with Mr.
Adie?-He had been told that I intended to commence curing fish,
and he offered me some to cure.
7707. Was it through Mr. Anderson that that was done?-I don't
know.
7708. Did the offer from Mr. Adie come to you through Mr.
Anderson?-No. He wrote me directly and I replied accepting his
offer, and then I went and saw him at Voe.
7709. Do you buy the fish from Mr. Adie's boatmen?-No; I buy
no fish.
7710. They are delivered to you by Mr. Adie's boatmen on his
account, and you cure them for Mr. Adie, employing your own
people and receiving a contract price for the curing?-Yes.
7711. How long had you been in Mr. Anderson's service before
that time?-Upwards of twenty years.
7712. All the time as a shopman?-Not all the time, but perhaps
for eighteen years as a shopman.
7713. Why did you leave his employment?-There was some
difference between us, and we thought it best to part.
7714. Was there a quarrel about money matters, or anything of that
kind?-No; there was no great quarrel.
7715. After you were refused that permission in the first instance
by the Busta trustees, did Mr. Anderson agree in any way not to
object to you having the shop, provided your sales were limited to
the men whom you employed yourself?-No; Mr. Anderson never
objected to me, nor in my presence; I did not hear him objecting.
7716. Did you know of him objecting?-I could not say that I
knew of it.
7717. Did you think he was objecting?-Yes.
7718. What made you think that: was it what Mr. Gifford said?-I
think it was.
7719. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have less objection to it
when he knew it was Mr. Adie who was concerned in the
business?-I took no thought of that.
7720. Do you know that Mr. Adie had interfered on your behalf
with Mr. Gifford?-Not to my knowledge.
7721. Did you ask him to do so?-No.
7722. Have you any reason to suppose that he interfered on your
behalf with Mr. Anderson?-Yes. He wrote to Mr. Anderson
about me, inquiring why had left, and asking for testimonials.
7723. Was that before he wrote to you making the offer?-It was
when I was asking goods from him. I don't remember exactly
whether it was before or after.
7724. Do you sell the goods for Mr. Adie, or do you sell them on
your own account?-I sell them on my own account.
7725. Do you get them from Mr. Adie at wholesale prices?-Yes.
7726. At least you get them from him at a lower rate than that at
which you sell them?-Yes.
7727. Was it before or after you got leave from the Busta people to
open the shop that Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-I cannot say
exactly when it was, but it was before I got the goods from Mr.
Adie.
7728. Was it before you had got permission to open the shop that
you applied to Mr. Adie for the goods?-No; I had got permission
before I applied for the goods.
7729. Then it was after you had got permission open the shop that
Mr. Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-Very likely it was but I don't
know. I did not know about him having written until some time
afterwards, when he told me.
7730. When you arranged with Mr. Adie about the fish-curing, was
anything said about you having a shop from which to supply the
people with goods?-No.
7731. Are you sure of that?-Yes. I wrote to him, and I never said
anything about that.
7732. But you went to see him after that?-Yes; it was only then I
spoke about the goods.
7733. Was it on your way home from Voe that you called at Busta
and saw Mr. Gifford about the shop the second time?-No; it was
before I went to Voe.
7734. Was it on your way to Voe?-I don't remember. Perhaps it
may have been on a different day altogether.
7735. But it was before you went to Voe, and after you had got the
letter from Mr. Adie?-Yes.
7736. You don't know from Mr. Adie or Mr. Anderson whether
there had been any letters between them about you until after you
were at Voe that time?-I don't know.
7737. Do you think there was any such letter?-I don't know of
any, but there may have been.
7738. How did you know of the other letter first: did you see it?-
No.
7739. Who told you of it?-Mr, Adie.
7740. Was that at another time when you called upon him?-No;
it was the first time-the time when I went to him and asked for
goods. He told me then that he had written to Mr. Anderson and
got his reply.
7741. That is not what you told me before: did you not say before,
that you thought it was after you had asked for the goods that Mr.
Adie wrote to Mr. Anderson?-It was after I had agreed for the
fish.
7742. Then the first time you saw Mr. Adie was at Voe before you
opened the shop, and when you went to ask for goods?-Yes.
7743. And when you were at Voe at that time Mr. Adie told you he
had written to Mr. Anderson, and had received a reply from him
containing a certificate?-Yes.
7744. Did Mr. Adie tell you at the same time that he had seen Mr.
Gifford?-I cannot say.
7745. What department did you manage in Mr. Anderson's
shop?-I was fish-curer and factor for the summer time at
Stenness.
7746. Do you know William Inkster?-Yes.
7747. Do you remember three or four years ago when he left Mr.
Adie and came to fish to Mr Anderson?-Yes.
7748. Did you know that he did that because Mr. Adie had refused
him supplies on account of a debt?-No; I did not know that.
7749. Did you know that he was in Mr. Adie's debt at that time?-
Yes.
7750. Do you know that Mr. Anderson took over the debt?-Yes.
7751. Is it a common thing here for a fish-merchant to take over
the debt of a fisherman who leaves another employer and comes to
him?-Yes.
[Page 189]
7752. Have you heard of that frequently among the fishermen?-
Yes. It has been the practice so long as I can remember, except
some time after Mr. Anderson came here, when it was not done.
Then, a fisherman who had got an advance from one merchant,
would go to another and leave his balance unpaid, and therefore
the old system was renewed again.
7753. Do you know the nature of the arrangement which was made
when the system was renewed?-I do not.
7754. Do you know what the arrangement is?-I never saw the
arrangement.
7755. I don't suppose it was in writing?-I could not say.
7756. Do you know what the practice generally is now in such
cases?-Yes. The merchant generally pays the man's balance
before giving him anything.
7757. That is to say, the new employer pays the man's balance
before agreeing with him to fish for him for the season?-Yes.
7758. Is the whole balance paid, or only a part of it?-That is just
as they can arrange.
7759. Is there a rule that a man is not to be taken by new employer
without his balance being paid to the old one?-I think that is
generally understood now.
7760. Do you know over what district that arrangement prevails?
Do you know what fish-merchants do that?-I think it extends no
further than to the men fishing at Stenness, and from Voe to
Hillswick.
7761. Does that include Messrs. Adie, Mr. Anderson, and Mr.
Inkster?-Yes.
7762. Were you aware that that was always done when you were in
Mr. Anderson's employment?-No, it was not always done, but it
was practised before I came into Mr. Anderson's employment at
all.
7763. But when you were in Mr. Anderson's employment, was it
not always done?-No, not always.
7764. You mean that the arrangement ceased for a while, and was
renewed?-Yes.
7765. How long is it since it was renewed?-I cannot tell.
7766. Was it before William Inkster came to Mr. Anderson?-
Yes, some time before that.
7767. Did you know that it was done in other cases besides
Inkster's?-Yes.
7768. Was it done in many cases?-I don't remember of many.
7769. Was it commonly known among the fishermen that there
was such a rule?-Yes, latterly, I believe, it was generally known.
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, JOHN ANDERSON
(recalled).
7770. You showed me some of your books yesterday, in which I
saw the name of William Inkster, Stenness and you explained to
me that a large sum of money, upwards of £40, which stood
against him in your books when he began to fish at the beginning
of last year, was the continuation of a balance that had been
against him for some years previously: is that so?-Yes. I would
rather not mention names, unless you think it necessary, because I
make it a rule with my shopmen that they are never to mention any
man's balance, whether it is due by him or not, on pain of being
turned off.
7771. You told me that this large balance consisted partly of an
account which Inkster had incurred to Mr. Adie at Voe, and which
you had taken over when the man began to fish for you?-Yes.
7772. What was the amount of the original debt which you took
over from Mr. Adie?-I think it came to about £20.
7773. Inkster left Mr. Adie, I understand, in consequence of his
supplies being stopped?-I don't know the reason exactly.
7774. But he came to fish for you?-Yes.
7775. How did it happen that you undertook his debt at the end of
the first season he fished for you?-It was in consequence of an
agreement that exists between Mr. Adie, Mr. Inkster of Brae, and
me, with reference to each other's fishermen.
7776. What is the nature of that agreement?-It was entered into
just to protect ourselves from those men who want to escape from
paying their debts. I think we're bound to each other not to take
the men without making some arrangement to see that their debts
shall be paid.
7777. Do you undertake to pay the whole debt, or only a part of it,
according to circumstances?-It is the whole debt.
7778. Was this a verbal arrangement?-No.
7779. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes.
7780. Have you got it?-I have not. I rather think I got a copy sent
to me at one time but I think Mr. Adie has the extended
agreement.
7781. Have you got a copy of it now?-I have not.
7782. Have you lost it?-No. It is very likely among my papers,
but I cannot say. It is a long time since I came across it.
7783. Has this arrangement been of long standing? Do you
remember the date of it?-I cannot exactly say the date. I think it
must be from five to nine years since it was entered into, but I
cannot speak accurately as to the date.
7784. Has the arrangement been acted upon?-Yes.
7785. When a fisherman leaves one master, and goes to another of
those three, the debt due to the former master is generally paid by
the new one?-Yes.
7786. You showed me in your invoice book an entry of the last
purchase of oatmeal you had made from Messrs. Glenny,
Aberdeen, for the purposes of your business, as follows:-'1871
June 19. 50 sacks oatmeal, sacks 50s., £100'?-Yes. The 50s. is
the price of the sacks, to be returned or kept.
7787. A sack of oatmeal consists of 280 lbs.?-Yes.
7788. What is the selling price of a lispund?-5s. 4d.
7789. Has that been the price for some time?-It has been the
price during the last season.
7790. You also showed me an invoice of flour from Messrs. J. & J.
Tod, Dalkeith:-'1871. October 2. 2 sacks extra superfine flour, at
44s., £4, 8s.;' and another invoice, containing these entries:-
'October 19. 2 sacks No. 2 flour, at 45s., £4, 10s., 1 sack oatmeal,
£2'?-Yes. The sacks in these invoices are charged separately.
7791. What is the selling price of the flour?-6s. 6d. per lispund.
Flour is also sold by the lispund here.
7792. Both the flour and the oatmeal in the invoice of October 19
were intended for the purposes of your business?-Yes. Besides
the invoice price, there are freight and charges to be taken into
account. The freight and landing would be 2s. per sack for the
oatmeal. That is the steamer's freight to Lerwick, and then it is
brought by a small packet which comes round by Roenesshill
when she has anything like a cargo. The small packet charges 1s.
6d. per sack; it is double freight coming round the hill; so that
probably the freight and landing charges will be 3s. 6d. per sack.
7793. Are these all the charges?-I think so. There would also be
insurance charged against me; it is at my risk when shipped. It
was not insured in this case, but still that ought to be reckoned,
because I ran the risk. I don't know the rate of insurance. I have
paid as high as 35s. per cent. of insurance from Leith, but I have
got it much cheaper insured in Glasgow-I think 7s. 6d. per cent.
7794. Is that for goods in general, or for any particular kind of
goods?-Just for general goods.
7795. You heard the evidence that was given this morning?-Yes.
7796. Is there any statement you have heard from any of the
witnesses which you wish to correct, or anything you wish to say
in addition to what you said yesterday?-Yes. I think I would be
inclined to differ from [Page 190] the description which Mr.
Sutherland gave of the people. My experience of them has been
very different.
7797. You would be disposed to give the Shetland people a better
character than he gave them?-I think so. I think they can bear
favourable comparison with any people of the same class that I
have come across in other parts of the world.
7798. In respect of frugality?-Yes.
7799. And foresight?-Yes; and activity in business.
7800. And for their moral virtues?-Yes.
7801. Is it not the case that a considerable part of the year is spent
in comparative idleness by the Shetland fishermen?-I believe it
is, but that perhaps does not arise from any unwillingness on their
part to work.
7802. From what does it arise?-From want of employment.
7803. Have they not their land?-They have their land, but, as I
observed before, there is a bar to improvement there.
7804. Would it not be possible to introduce a more extensive
system of winter fishing than that which exists now?-I don't
think it.
7805. It seems a little peculiar, does it not, that the summer fishing
should be prosecuted in the big boats, and that only the small boats
should be sent out in winter?-They prosecute the fishing in the
big boats in winter too, when the weather permits.
7806. But they don't go so far to sea in winter as in summer?-No;
they don't go so far.
7807. I understood it was principally the small boats that went out
in winter?-That is true, but on several occasions they employ the
big boats too. But the smaller boats, when the weather permits,
are much handier and lighter to manage.
7808. Are they safer?-They are equally safe when the weather
permits.
7809. But would they not be able to go greater distances to sea
with the big boats?-It would not matter much what size of boat
they had if they were caught at sea by a gale.
7810. Is it not the case that on the east coast of Scotland the
fishing is prosecuted for nine or ten months in the year; and that
the fishermen there, who are a very comfortable class, have no
occupation except that of fishermen? I am not asking you at
present about any separation between fishing and agriculture, but
don't you think it would be possible to prosecute the fishing in
Shetland to the same extent, and for the same length of time, as it
is prosecuted on the east coast of Scotland?-I don't think it.
7811. Is that owing to the weather?-It is owing to the weather,
and the great exposure to the Atlantic, and the great swell that
comes in from it. A very light puff of wind raises a tremendous
sea in winter, that scarcely any boat could live in.
7812. In some parts of Shetland, where there is not so much
exposure, is not the winter fishing prosecuted to some extent?-
Yes.
7813. And to a greater extent than it is here?-Yes; that is done
about Yell Sound, for instance. They are protected there on
almost all sides.
7814. Here you are exposed to westerly gales which do not affect
the fishermen on the east coast?-That is so.
7815. Is that the principal reason why the fishing is not prosecuted
here so much in winter?-That is partly the reason.
7816. Is there any other reason why the winter fishing does not
succeed here?-Yes. Every experienced fisherman knows that
it is only at certain seasons of the year that the ling come over
the ground in any quantities; and that is, I think, from, say the
month of April or May to September. That has been the case for
generations.
7817. Ling is your staple fish here, upon which the success of the
fishing depends?-Yes; altogether.
7818. Would it not be worth while to prosecute the fishing in
winter for the purpose of taking cod and haddock and other
fish?-I don't think it.
7819. Would it not pay without the ling?-No; the other fish
would not be got in sufficient quantities.
7820. Would they not be got in the same quantities, as on the east
coast of Scotland?-No. The ground here for one thing is not so
extensive. On the east coast of Scotland, you can have a range of
perhaps, ten or twenty or thirty miles from every port, which you
have not got here.
7821. How have you not got that range here?-The island is not
so big altogether; and there are only certain tracks of ground that
the men can fish on.
7822. It is on certain banks only that the fish caught?-Yes.
7823. And the banks here are not so extensive as on the east
coast?-They are not.
7824. Has any attempt ever been made to introduce a more
extensive winter fishing?-I don't think there is a more active
class of men anywhere than there is to the westward here. They
have small holdings, but they are constantly prepared to go off to
sea when the weather offers, and they do prosecute the fishing
often.
7825. Have you anything further to state?-With regard to the
debts of the men, I may say that in 1864 I gave them to understand
that unless those who were in debt reduced their balances in the
former year, I could not help them again with their rent; and,
except in exceptional cases, I have invariably acted upon that rule
since.
7826. You mean that when they came to you at rent time for a cash
payment in order to help them to pay their rents, you could not
help them with that unless their former balance was reduced?-
Quite so.
7827. You mentioned in a former part of your examination that a
certain amount of cash had been paid at last settlement?-Yes.
7828. That would be in November?-Yes; in November and
December.
7829. Did the whole of that pass to the fishermen, or was any rent
included in it?-That was what I paid to the people when I was
settling. There might be others besides fishermen, but I did not
distinguish between them.
7830. Do any of the rents of the Busta estate pass through your
hands?-No.
7831. But the rents to be paid to the factor would probably, where
due by fishermen, be paid out of these payments by you?-I think
so; but not necessarily in every case.
7832. Have you any arrangement with the factor about the rents of
your fishermen?-None at all.
7833. That is quite an independent concern?-Quite.
7834. I think you have prepared some statement with regard to the
amount of debts due by your fishermen during the last four or five
years?-Yes. I have prepared the following statement, showing
the number of men in debt, the total amount of their debts, and the
average amount due by each, taking it as a whole:-
No. of Men Total
Year. in debt. amount of Average.
debt.
1868 74 £1044 £14, 2s.
1869 79 1017 13
1870 72 942 13
1871 64 782 12, 4s.
7835. That shows that eight men had wiped off their debt
altogether between 1870 and 1871?-Yes. That will prove, I
think, that they are not quite so black as they have been painted.
They are improving a little. The largest balance was £49, 14s.
21/2d. in 1868, which was reduced to £41, 9s. 9d. in 1871.
7836. The amount of indebtedness at Ollaberry is not included in
these figures?-No. The figures I have now given apply only to
the Hillswick men, who number about 125.* Four of the indebted
men have left since, and are not clear of debt. That would reduce
the amount by about £50 in all of the years except the first.
* In a note subsequently received from Mr. Anderson, he says: 'I
find, in going over my books, that instead of 125 men, as I
believed fished for me last year, I have actually 147. These I find
are made up by fee'd men, and several crews who cured and dried
their own fish, and from whom I purchased their fish so dried at
the end of the season.
[Page 191]
Hillswick, Northmavine, January 12, 1872, ARTHUR
SANDISON, examined.
7837. You are a shopman and bookkeeper in Mr. Anderson's
establishment at Hillswick?-I am.
7838. You are in the course of making up, at my request, a return
from ledger D and ledger V, which are books containing the ledger
accounts of the individual fishermen employed at Hillswick?-
Yes.
7839. Do both these books contain the accounts of the individual
men?-Yes. Ledger D contains the accounts both of the crews
and private accounts of the men; and ledger V contains some
private accounts.
7840. In proceeding to make up the list, you are taking the names
of the last fifty fishermen as they appear in the ledger, and you are
inserting in the return the various particulars which have been
furnished to you?-Yes.
7841. The return which you are preparing, and which you are to
send me, will be correctly taken from Mr. Anderson's books?-
Yes, so far as I am able to do it.
7842. Is there any other person here who wishes to be examined?
(No answer.) Then I adjourn the sittings at this place until further
notice.
<Adjourned>.
Brae: Saturday, January 13, 1872.
<Present>-Mr. Guthrie
MAGNUS JOHNSTON, examined.
7843. You keep a shop at Tofts, about a mile from Mossbank?-
Yes; I think it is rather more than a mile from Mossbank.
7844. What do you deal in?-Tea, tobacco, sugar and I buy fish
too.
7845. Do you cure them yourself?-Yes.
7846. How many boats have you fishing for you?-I have no boats
of my own; I just buy a little fish in the winter time, and I cure the
men's fish in Feideland in summer. I cure at the fishing-station for
Andrew Tulloch, who was examined the other day.
7847. From what fishermen do you buy your fish?-I buy them
from any man who comes along, and wants to sell fish to me.
7848. Is that in the winter time only, or in the summer as well?-
In the winter only. I am a seaman myself, and I have followed the
sea since I was a child, but I stayed at home this year; and in the
summer season I cured Tulloch's fish, while the wife and the
bairns and I have commenced to sell a little tea and sugar and
tobacco, and to buy fish from the small fishing boats in winter.
7849. Is that the way which people hereabout usually take to start
a shop business?-I think it is.
7850. Do you keep accounts with the men that you buy the fish
from?-No.
7851. Do you pay for them in cash?-Yes; always in cash.
7852. And then they buy some provisions from you?-Yes; if they
like.
7853. Are these paid for in cash too?-Yes.
7854. I suppose you find it very uphill work competing with the
big shops?-I don't know. I am a kind of rough and ready sailor
man, and I don't take much thought about that; it does not give me
much concern.
7855. Do the men prefer to deal with the big shops in it general
way?-I cannot say as to that.
7856. Do you drive a good business with any of the men besides
those who sell their fish to you?-No; some of the neighbours may
buy a few provisions from us, but not many. A woman may sell
her eggs to us, and get provisions for them.
7857. Where do you get your tea?-From Bremner & Grant,
Aberdeen.
7858. Do they send their traveller round the country soliciting
orders?-Sometimes. He has not been round this winter, and I
get my tea when I write for it.
7859. Do you keep pass-books for the business which you do with
your customers?-Sometimes, but not many. I think my girl keeps
a pass-book sometimes, but I am no scribe myself, and I cannot
keep books.
7860. You never were a fisherman?-Not in the home fishing, but
I have been at the Faroe fishing as master.
7861. When was that?-About four or five years ago.
7862. Whose vessel were you in?-The late Mr. Hoseason's. I
have not been at Faroe since then.
7863. You went from Mossbank then?-Yes; I was one year in a
schooner for Mr. Adie too.
7864. Had you the same arrangement then about the fish which
exists now, that the men get one-half of the fish, for which they are
paid the current price at the end of the season?-Yes.
7865. Did you at that time live where you are now?-Yes; and
when I went to the Faroe fishing. Some time after I got married I
lived in Northmaven, but now for nine years past at Martinmas I
have lived at Tofts.
7866. When you went to the Faroe fishing, did you get your
supplies from Pole, Hoseason, & Company, when you were
employed by them?-No; I generally took my supplies in tea
and sugar and other things from Braidwood & Fowler, Sandport
Street, Leith. We are friendly yet, and they always send me some
present at Christmas.
7867. Then you are rather better off than most of the men?-Yes;
in some ways I am.
7868. At least you had sense to get your provisions where you
pleased?-Yes; and I had something left by my friends, besides
what I earned myself. When I was at the Faroe fishing, I did not
think they got fair-play.
7869. Who did not get fair-play?-Not even myself, or any of the
men. I knew the fish had been selling at a higher rate than the men
got the benefit of; at least I was told so.
7870. Do you think the men were not to blame for that, by making
a bargain which left them entirely at the discretion of the
merchant? The merchant could fix any price he liked, could he
not?-He could. But if I get the loan of a man's boat with which
to go to the fishing, and if I engage for one-half of the fish, then, I
think, it would only be fair-play to divide the fish in halves, and
for the merchant to take one-half, and give me the other.
7871. But you said the men sometimes felt that the price which
they got for their fish at the end of the season was lower than it
ought to have been, and I was asking you whether you did not
think the men had themselves to blame for that. They did not
reserve any power to themselves about fixing the price, but left it
entirely to the merchants?-Yes.
7872. Then your idea is, that they would have been wiser to have
kept some power about that in their own hands?-Yes.
7873. How could they manage that?-They engaged for one-half
at the Faroe fishing, and the owners of the vessels ought to have
sold the fish conscientiously, and to have given the men the benefit
of their half, after taking off curing and other expenses.
7874. But you say the men thought the owners did not always fix
the price conscientiously?-I thought so myself.
7875. How would you manage it so that the men could make sure
of getting a fair price at the end of the season?-I would let the
men stand the chance of the markets so far as the fixing of the
price is concerned.
[Page 192]
7876. But is not that the bargain that is made now, that they get the
market price at the end of the season?-I believe it is, but it was
not so then.
7877. What was the difference in the arrangement then?-I cannot
say. They engaged for one-half of the fish at that time, but I know
that sometimes they did not get the benefit of the market price.
7878. Do you think they get the benefit of the market price
now?-I cannot say, for I have not been at Faroe for five years.
7879. At that time did most of the men who were sailing with you
run accounts with the merchant for their outfit and supplies?-
Yes.
7880. Had they generally a balance to get in cash settling time?-
Yes.
7881. Did you know any men who were behind, and had a balance
against them at the end of the year?-I cannot say whether there
were any in that position.
7882. You were not in that position yourself?-Never.
7883. What was the reason why the men generally dealt with the
merchants who employed them at the fishing?-Perhaps the men
did not have money at the time with which to go and buy the
articles from any other party, and the man who owned the vessel
ready to supply them. That was the way in which it was done, so
far as I know.
7884. I suppose some of them had been supplied with goods
before they went away to the fishing?-I think so.
7885. And it was a common enough thing for an account to be
standing against them when they settled?-I believe it was.
7886. Do you think any of them would have engaged with another
merchant in preference for the fishing if they had not had that
account?-I cannot say as to that.
7887. Was there any obligation on them to engage with the
merchant who supplied them with their goods?-Not so far as I
know.
7888. Except that they thought it fair to go and fish for him in
order that he might have some security for his advances?-Of
course.
7889. How long is it since you opened your shop?-About
twenty-one or twenty-two months.
7890. On whose land is it?-The proprietor, Mr. Robert Hoseason,
is in New Zealand.
7891. Is it under the management of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-No.
Mr. Sievwright, writer in Lerwick, is the agent. Mr. John White
and Mr. Cheyne, Edinburgh, are the agents, and they have Mr.
Sievwright under them.
7892. Had you any difficulty in getting a place in which to open
your business?-No; I had been living there before.
7893. But was any objection made to your opening the shop?-No;
there could be none, because I have a lease of the place.
7894. For what length of time is your lease?-For ten years.
7895. Do you know whether there is a difficulty in getting
premises for shops in other parts of the district?-I cannot say,
because I never tried.
7896. What is the price of your meal just now?-The fact is, we
have none.
7897. Do you not sell meal?-Yes, I sell it. My meal is 16d. a
peck all through the year.
7898. Is that higher or lower than the price at the Mossbank
shop?-I think it is 1d. below it.
7899. Is your meal of the same quality as the meal there?-I think
so. I get my meal from Aberdeen.
7900. Is it better than the meal sold at Mossbank?-I could not say
that.
7901. Do you get it from Bremner & Grant?-Yes, and sometimes
I get it from Tulloch. I generally get it by the sack or boll; and if
any person takes a sack or boll from me, I give it at what it cost
me, adding something for freight.
7902. You sell it at 16d. per peck; how much is that per boll?-
There are about 17 pecks to the boll, but you will not get a boll to
weigh out 17 pecks. There should be 171/2 in it, but weighing out
pecks and half pecks the boll will not weigh out so much as 17.
7903. Are most of the people about Mossbank employed by Pole,
Hoseason, & Co. at the fishing?-Yes most of them.
7904. Is there anybody there who fishes for one else?-James Hay
fishes for Mr. Adie, Voe. That is all I know.
7905. Does he go to Voe to fish?-No; he fishes at Feideland
Station.
7906. With that exception, will all the people within two or three
miles of Mossbank be fishing for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; I
think most of them.
7907. Or within five miles?-I could not say for five miles; but I
think most of them will.
7908. Do most of them deal at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop?-I
believe they do.
7909. Very few of them come to you?-Occasionally they do, but
not to any great extent.
7910. Do you think you would have a greater number of
customers if you were employing boats yourself for the fishing?-
I cannot say; perhaps I might.
7911. Have you not thought of turning your attention that way?-
Not as yet.
7912. How is it that the men are at liberty to sell fish to you if they
are engaged to Pole, Hoseason & Co.?-They are engaged in the
summer time with the large boats, because the large boats belong
to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.; but the small boats which they use in
the winter time belong to the men themselves, and it is more
convenient for the men living in the neighbourhood of my house to
sell their fish to me than to Pole, Hoseason, & Co. It would be
better for them to sell their fish to me 6d. per cwt. cheaper than to
go to Mossbank with them. The boats are their own, and the men
are not in debt to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., and therefore they can do
with these fish as they please.
7913. Do you also buy fish from men who are in debt to Pole,
Hoseason, & Co.?-I don't know whether they are in debt to them
or not. I take fish from every one who brings them to me.
7914. Do you buy many fish during the winter season in that
way?-Not a large quantity. Perhaps. I might have about 11/2 or 2
tons of dry fish in the spring; that would be about the amount of it.
7915. Are these worth about £20 a ton?-No; I got £17, 10s. last
year for them.
7916. Then these fish don't sell so well as the summer cured
fish?-No; some of them are very small.
7917. Do the men about you not think it would be more profitable
for themselves to cure their own fish?-They could not manage it,
because they have no cellars or stores in which to keep salt, or
convenient beaches on which to dry the fish.
7918. Did not the men formerly cure their own fish in Shetland to
some extent?-I don't know.
7919. Don't they try to do it still?-Some of them do it still in
Shetland; but in the winter time they must have a booth for the
purpose of salting their fish and keeping them.
7920. Do you sell soft goods in your shop as well as provisions?-
No. We sometimes had a bit of white cotton last year for making
oil cloths, or the like of that, but we have none now.
7921. Do you think the men about you are not able to purchase
from you so much as they would otherwise do from want of having
money in their pockets?-That is a thing I cannot say anything
about, because I never know what any man has in his pocket. We
never talk about that. I might have my ideas on the subject, but I
could not speak positively about it.
7922. It is your ideas I want to know, and what, you feel in your
own experience. What is your opinion on the subject?-I believe
it might be better, for the men if they were allowed to buy or not as
they thought proper.
7923. But do you think the extent of your dealings, is less than it
would be if the men had ready money payments?-I could not say
for that.
[Page 193]
7924. Supposing you provided as good an article as Pole,
Hoseason, & Co., would the men come to you in greater numbers
if they were paid in cash shorter periods?-I could not say. They
just come to as their own minds lead them, but I believe they
would still go to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s shop, even although they
had money.
7925. But don't you think they are prevented from coming to you
by their want of money?-They may be in some cases.
7926. You say you have your own ideas about that: what are
they?-I believe it might be the idea of man that he might get a
better article if he could come to me for it, or go to Pole Hoseason,
& Co.'s shop, just as he liked.
7927. But suppose a man does want to come to you, and I suppose
some of your friends would be very glad to deal with you, do you
know that they are sometimes in want of money, and thus
prevented from coming?-I don't know.
7928. Do the men not prefer to go to a place where they can get
what they want on credit?-I don't know about that either.
7929. Have you never been told that?-No.
7930. Have you never suspected it?-No. I think they just go
where they please themselves. Perhaps they might get a better
bargain from another man than from me, and yet they might come
to me or go past me.
7931. Are you quite content with the system of long settlements
which goes on at Pole, Hoseason, & Co.'s, and that the men should
run accounts there?-No, I am not satisfied with that. I think it
would be better for the people to have no accounts at all.
7932. Do you mean that it would be better for their own sakes?-
Yes.
7933. What would be the advantage to them?-For my own part, if
I had no money, but if I might go to a shop and take out more
goods than perhaps I ought to do, without regard to whether I
would be able to pay them or not; whereas if a man did not have
that liberty, but went into a shop with few pence in his pocket, he
might make it spin out better, or more to his own advantage.
7934. Do you think he might get his meal cheaper by going to
another shop and paying for it in cash?-He might, or he might
take better care of his money, and manage to spin it out more.
7935. I suppose a merchant like yourself, if you were giving
long credit in that way, would require little more profit on your
goods?-Of course.
7936. But you can afford to sell cheaper because you are paid in
cash?-Yes; and I think it would be better for the public in general
if all payments were made in cash.
7937. Do you employ some men in your curing business?-No; I
just do it with my own family. Sometimes I get a little boy to help
me for a while, but that is all.
7938. When you were employed in the Faroe fishing, did you
get cash from the merchant in the course of season, when you
happened to come home, whenever you wanted it?-Yes.
7939. Could your wife get cash?-She did not require it, and she
did not ask it.
7940. Is there any sort of feeling that people don't like to ask for
cash before the settlement?-That might have been the case with
some, but it was not with me, because I did not need the cash until
it was due.
7941. Then generally you did not ask for it until it was due?-No.
7942. Do you think there is much money among the people in your
neighbourhood during the summer time?-I don't think there is
much.
7943. Is it generally spent soon after settling time?-Yes.
7944. Do you find that your cash transactions are greater at one
season of the year than at another?-I cannot say that. I have only
been one year in business, and I have not made any calculation
about that.
Brae, January 13, 1872, ARTHUR THOMAS JAMIESON, examined.
7945. You are the son of Jacob Jamieson, residing at Brae?-Yes.
7946. You were employed by me on Wednesday last to go to
Mossbank, and to purchase some articles from the shop of Messrs.
Pole, Hoseason, & Co., there?-Yes.
7947. You went there and purchased these articles without saying
who they were for?-Yes:
7948. You have brought to me half a pound of sugar, for which
you paid 3d.?-Yes.
7949. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes.
7950. A quarter lb. of tea for which you paid 7d.?-Yes.
7951. And 4 lbs. of oatmeal for which you paid 81/2d.?-Yes.
7952. You have now delivered these articles over to the clerk?-I
have.
7953. Were these all the articles you purchased?-Yes.
7954. Are they exactly in the same state now as when you bought
them?-Yes.
7955. They are contained in the same parcels as when they were
put up in the shop?-Yes.
7956. Have you any reason to believe that the prices which you
paid for the articles are different from those which are charged for
the same qualities of articles at other times in that shop?-There is
no difference, so far as I know.
Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES BROWN, examined.
7957. Have you a shop?-Yes; a small one.
7958. Where?-At Brough, in North Delting, about two miles
from Mossbank.
7959. What do you deal in?-Groceries; nothing else.
7960. On whose land is your shop?-Mr. Gifford's of Busta.
7961. How long have you had it?-The shop has been going on for
about ten years.
7962. Were you at any time forbidden, either verbally or by your
lease, to have a shop on that ground?-No; I was told to go on.
7963. Was there a shop there before you went?-Yes; they always
used to keep some small articles there for sale.
7964. Do your customers generally pay you in ready money?-
Yes; I deal all in ready money; and I buy fish for cash. I am a
fisherman myself, and I buy few fish from others as I have a
chance, paying money for them, and my family cure them.
7965. Is it the summer fishing you go to?-I am at home all the
year round at the sea-side, and I fish there, but they are generally
small fish I take.
7966. You don't go to the haaf?-No.
7967. Have you a boat's crew?-No. My father and a boy go
along with me.
7968. Are you able to cure both your own fish and the fish which
you buy from other men?-Yes.
7969. What quantity do you buy from other men?-It varies in
different years. When there are plenty of small cod in the Sound, I
may have 11/2 ton during the season, while in other seasons I may
have only the half of that.
7970. Is it only the small fish you buy?-If bigger fish were
offered to me I would buy them, but there are no bigger fish
caught along the shores.
7971. Do you not buy fish in the summer time?-Yes.
7972. Do you buy fish brought in by the large boats at that time?-
No; the men take them to the stations.
7973. Do they not bring any of the big fish to Mossbank in the
summer?-No; they are sold at the stations.
[Page 194]
7974. Do you never go there to buy fish?-No; I am content with
the home fishing.
7975. Are the men bound to sell the small fish they get in the
winter to any particular merchant?-They sell these fish to any
one they like. There is no restriction upon them for that. Messrs.
Pole, Hoseason, & Co. never say anything about it.
7976. Do you run any accounts in your shop?-Scarcely any.
There may be 1s. or an ounce of tobacco or any small thing of that
kind, marked down.
7977. Are you often asked to give credit for a short time?-Very
often.
7978. The men are not always in possession of ready money?-
No; they are very often out of money.
7979. At what period of the year are they best off for money?-
About our place in the winter time if it is good, and if they are
catching a few cod, that is just about as good a time for them as
any.
7980. Do they not also have a good deal of cash after settling
time?-After settling time they have always a little.
7981. Is your trade better at that time than at other periods of the
year?-When it is good weather, and anything doing at the fishing,
or when the men have come from Feideland with the money which
they had got at settlement, they trade more at my shop, as a rule,
than at other times.
7982. Is June and July a good time for your shop?-Not very good;
because most of the men are away at the fishing. There may be
two or three boats manned by old men at home; but, with the
exception of what they bring in from the Sound, I have nothing
else to depend upon.
7983. Are not the men's wives and families at home, and requiring
provisions?-Yes; and I may have the chance of a few dozen eggs,
or any produce of that sort.
7984. That is for buying, but I mean for selling: is June and July a
good season for the selling of your goods?-No; it is the worst
time of the year for me.
7985. Why is that?-Because the men are all away at the fishing.
7986. But their wives are left, and they require something to keep
them alive?-They are always working in what is called the kelp,
and they go to Mr. Pole with that, so that I have no chance of
buying it. I might have a chance of it, but I don't think it would
pay me, as I don't know anything about it.
7987. Don't you think that if you had the chance of buying as
much kelp as you liked in the summer time you might drive a
better trade at your shop?-I might do a little better; but Messrs.
Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have the shores contracted for, so that they
must get the kelp. They pay so much to Mr. Gifford for the shores,
and in return for that they are entitled to the kelp, and they must
have it.
7988. Do they pay in ready money for the kelp?-They make no
scruple to give ready money for it, if a somewhat lower price is
taken.
7989. But the people generally take goods for it?-Yes; they
generally take the price in goods, or if they ask money, they will
receive 6d. less per cwt., which I think is not unfair.
7990. If it was paid in ready money, I suppose you would have a
chance of getting some of the custom of these kelp-gatherers?-
Yes; if every man had his freedom to go where he liked, I would
have a chance.
7991. Then I suppose the reason why sales are larger in winter and
less in summer is, that the people have not ready money to go to
your shop for the goods they want?-No; the men are all at the
ling fishing in the summer time and all the chance I have is in the
winter time, when they are at home fishing in the small boats.
7992. But even although they were at home in summer, they would
not have ready money with which to come to you?-No. A man
might not have ready money continually, unless he was paid every
day for his catch.
7993. Would it not be better for your business if the men were paid
every day or every week for their fish?-I don't think it would be
any better for me unless I was out at the fishing station.
7994. But their families would have the money, and they might
come to you with it?-They might.
7995. The men don't take their wives and children to the fishing
station?-No.
7996. But I suppose the wives and children have very little money
when the men are away at the stations?-Very little.
7997. Is that the reason why they get their supplies from the
merchant's shop?-Yes.
7998. Only if they had the money they might go with it to another
dealer, from whom they might get their articles cheaper?-They
might.
7999. Do you sell your meal any cheaper than it is sold at the
Mossbank shop?-No. I don't see that I can sell it any cheaper
than Mr. Pole can.
8000. What is the price of your meal just now?-I deal very little
in that. I only sell a few groceries-such as tea, tobacco, sugar,
soap, soda, spice, pepper, and things of that kind. I might also
have a sack or two of meal about the beginning of August, when it
is most required.
8001. Where do you buy your meal?-For the most part in
Lerwick, but I send south for a little of it.
8002. Do you think it would be better for the people in the
country if a ready money system were introduced?-I think so.
I think it would be better for the big merchants also to pay in
money. I have had that idea all along, that it would be better
both for the merchants and the people to pay in cash.
8003. Why would it be better for the people?-Because they
would have the cash to please themselves with, and to go
where they liked.
8004. If they could please themselves, do you think they might be
able to buy cheaper?-Yes.
8005. If you were getting a large ready-money business, do you
think you could sell cheaper than you do now?-I cannot say.
8006. But if a ready-money system were introduced you would try
to do that?-Yes, I would and I think I would be able to do so,
because the money is in hands and out of hands and there are no
bad debts.
Brae, January 13, 1872, Rev. JAMES FRASER, examined.
8007. You have been a clergyman at Sullem for twenty-four
years?-I have.
8008. You have an intimate acquaintance with the people who
live about you, and, among others, with the fishermen?-Yes.
8009. You also know the system of payment and of credit
purchases which exists in the district?-I do.
8010. Are you prepared to give any opinion as to the effect of
that system upon the circumstances and character of the people?-
Yes, I think the effect of it, to some extent, is not very good.
It is rather an extensive subject to embrace within one answer,
because there are a considerable number of people who are free
and independent; they can make their own terms; but there are a
great number of people who act on the credit system. That system
has gone on, I daresay, from time immemorial, and it has become
a great evil in the community, fraught with consequences of
different descriptions that are evil.
8011. Are there many of the people whom you would describe as
not being free to make their own bargains?-Of course there is
hardly any person free to make his own bargain who has no ready
money, and who is always in debt; and however well they may be
dealt with by the fish-curers,-and I don't know of any case of
wrong dealing in that respect-still the people are placed at a
disadvantage. I believe the whole community are placed at a
disadvantage in consequence of that, because, from the great
amount of bad debts, the merchant must charge a higher
percentage of profit upon his goods.
[Page 195]
8012. In saying that there is a great amount of bad debts, do you
mean that there is a large proportion of debts in the merchants
books which are never paid?-That is what I mean.
8013. Do you not mean that some of them are only very long
delayed, and are liquidated only when a good fishing season
comes?-Both statements are true. There are some of them
which are very long delayed, and others which are delayed for
ever, and never paid at all.
8014. You think that both these causes oblige the merchants to
charge a higher price for goods than they otherwise would do?-
Decidedly; but there is a greater evil than that still. Sometime in
the course of Providence, an accident occurs, and families are left
destitute, and the merchant has the disagreeable alternative of
either losing his own debt, or putting the law in force and driving
the families to extremity. That, however, is never done; but in
such a case there might be an appeal to public benevolence in
order to save human life, and that appeal is always responded to.
8015. What is the peculiarity in that case which you wish to point
out?-The peculiarity in that case is, that I should wish the people
to be placed in such circumstances that an appeal of that kind
would not need to be made.
8016. Do you think such an appeal would be unnecessary if the
credit system did not exist?-It would be unnecessary to a certain
extent; but, at the same time, I can hardly see how to get rid of the
credit system. I believe the merchants themselves feel it to be a
much more trying thing, or at least fully as trying a thing, as I do.
I look at it from one point of view, and they suffer from it from
another.
8017. Is it within your own knowledge that a large portion of
the people here are in a state of permanent indebtedness to the
merchants?-I don't know to what extent they may be in a state of
permanent indebtedness. I believe that a great number of them are
very seldom clear, but of course there is a large proportion of the
community who are clear from year to year.
8018. Do you mean that there is a large proportion of the men who
are clear once in a year?-There are a great number who are
always clear. There are number of the people who have never
been in debt, and I believe never will be.
8019. But you are speaking of those who are in debt: what may be
the proportion who are in that position?-I could not give an
accurate answer as to the extent to which a state of permanent
indebtedness prevails; but I know that it prevails to a much larger
extent than is good for the community.
8020. Do you think it prevails to a larger extent here than in other
districts of the country?-I don't think so.
8021. I meant than in other parts of Scotland, not of Shetland?-I
am not very well acquainted with the extent to which a credit
system prevails in Scotland.
8022. But you think it prevails to such an extent here as to be
injurious to the independence of the people?-I think so; at least
to the independence of some of the people.
8023. Do you think it tends to injure their truthfulness?-I don't
know to what extent it will do that; but I think that, to some extent,
when a man gets into arrears beyond what he is able to meet, he is
apt to lose heart, and to come short of what he might otherwise do
to clear himself.
8024. Have you known cases of that description?-I don't know to
what extent cases of that description may prevail, but I know that
there are a good many people who are living this year on their next
year's earnings, and perhaps on the earnings of a year or two in
advance of that.
8025. These are cases within your own knowledge, in which you
have derived your information from the parties you speak of?-
Yes.
8026. They have admitted it to you?-Yes, in one way or another.
I have gained some of my knowledge from the merchants
themselves, and some from the people.
8027. I suppose that sometimes, in the course of your
ministrations, you have occasion to inquire a little into the
circumstances of the men?-Yes, sometimes.
8028. In a letter which you wrote in reply to circular received
from me, you gave an opinion about some proposed method of
improvement which had for its object a separation between fishing
and farming?-I have heard such a thing proposed. It has been
discussed in the public press.
8029. Do you think the fishing could be carried on here apart from
farming?-I do not. I think the fishermen could not live without
their farms.
8030. Are they in a different position from the fishermen on the
east coast of Scotland, in Aberdeenshire or Banffshire, who have
no farms, and who live very comfortably, as I understand, by
fishing alone?-I think they are in a very different position from
these fishermen. One reason for that is, that there are frequent
seasons occurring when there are no fish on the Shetland coast.
Another reason is, that Shetland is very far from the market; and
even although fish could be got, they could not be brought to
market at a season when an adequate return could be got for them.
8031. But the curing might proceed in winter as it does in
summer?-It might, but the fishermen would not be able, as a
rule to keep themselves alive in winter by fishing alone.
8032. Do you mean that they would be much more interrupted by
the weather in winter than in summer?-They would be much
more interrupted by the weather, and they would have less chance
of fish.
8033. Are you aware whether winter fishing has been tried in
Shetland on a large scale?-Yes; not on a large scale, but it
has been tried pretty extensively. I know that from my own
experience. I tried it myself from the time when I could handle a
boat oar, until I was twenty-seven years of age. During that time I
was at the fishing every day, summer and winter, when it was
fishing weather, and living in the midst of the ocean; and I have no
hesitation in saying that if fishermen had been dependent on
fishing alone, they would have died from sheer want, leaving their
families out of the question altogether.
8034. But at that time were there any appliances for sending out
large boats such as are now sent out in summer, and for curing the
fish when brought home?-Yes, there were appliances for curing
the fish when brought home; and little boats are much more handy
about the Shetland coast than large boats at that season of the year.
8035. Do you think, as regards the hosiery trade, that it would be
expedient for cash to be paid instead of goods as at present?-
Sometimes it would be a convenience to the people to get cash,
but generally speaking, I believe it would make very little
difference. For instance, if a woman goes into a merchant's
shop with so much hosiery, and she wants so much goods which
the merchant can supply, she may just as well get them from him
as from anybody else.
8036. But supposing the woman did not want goods?-Supposing
she wants money, it would certainly be more convenient for her to
get the money.
8037. Is it the case, so far as you know, that the people are often in
want of money, and cannot get it?-I have not been aware of any
particular case in which a little money was wanted and could not
be got; but, as a general rule, money has never been paid for
hosiery in Shetland.
8038. Are you of opinion that cases of hardship are not likely to
occur in consequence of the want of money?-I could not give
a positive answer to that question. I have heard the women
complain more of there being two prices than of any difficulty
in getting money.
8039. The two prices you refer to are the cash price and the price
in goods?-Yes.
8040. What is their complaint with regard to that?-They think
hosiery is sold at a disadvantage, when goods are so much dearer
because bought with hosiery. That is the principal cause of
complaint that I have heard of.
8041. Is it understood that the goods are dearer, because they are
bought with hosiery?-That is generally [Page 196] understood; at
least in some places. There are some merchants who make it all
one price together; the same when hosiery is paid for the goods as
when they are paid for in cash.
8042. Is that not the case with all?-It is not universally the case,
8043. Therefore there are not only two prices for hosiery, but there
are two prices for goods bought with hosiery?-Yes; in some
places there are.
8044. Are you aware of that from your, own knowledge, or is it
merely from a complaint among the women?-It is a complaint
among the women, and I think there is justice in it.
8045. That is, if it exists?-Yes; and I think it does exist in some
places.
8046. Are you aware from your own knowledge that it does
exist?-I think I am pretty certain of it.
8047. Do you think a system of credit payments and of paying for
hosiery by goods has the effect of raising the prices of goods upon
the whole community?-I don't think the hosiery has any effect
of that description at all, so far as I know, but I think the credit
system must have that effect in a greater or less degree. Under that
system I think the credit which is most hopelessly given is in meal.
The fish-curer often finds himself in the greatest difficulty with a
family who are perhaps in want, and have no means to purchase
meal. In that case he is frequently obliged, out of compassion, to
give out meal for which he hardly expects to receive anything; or
if he does, it is a long time before it comes.
8048. In such a case is the fisherman not under a sort of obligation
to fish for that merchant during the next year, and until his debt is
liquidated?-I think he is under such an obligation, but in some
cases it takes a long fishing before the debt is liquidated.
8049. Do you think it is wholesome for a man to be under such a
permanent obligation to fish for the same party?-I don't think it
is wholesome for either party. But there is no help for it.
8050. Does that produce a spirit of submission and dependence on
the part of the fishermen towards the merchant?-I don't know,
but to some extent it must.
8051. Have you known any case in which that became very
evident?-I cannot say. I could not name any particular case.
8052. You have not been struck by that in the course of your
experience?-No. I have a considerable amount of acquaintance
both here and in the north part of the islands of Shetland, and
I cannot say that I have been struck with any such spirit of
dependence. In the nature of things, however, it must exist more
or less. But, in my opinion, the better way to get rid of it would be
for the people to grow their own meal, and require less of it to be
supplied to them.
8053. Do you mean that it would be an advantage if they required
to purchase less meal than they do now?-Yes. I cannot see how
the system can be got rid of, unless the people are able to cultivate
their land, and grow their own meal.
8054. Therefore you are inclined to recommend a system of
agricultural improvement as the best thing for Shetland?-Yes.
8055. Could that be effected without a separation between the
fishing and the farming?-I think so. I think if people were placed
in such security that they knew they were working for themselves,
so that they could spend every day or every hour that they had
leisure in improving their small crofts of land, they might grow
half as much again as they do at present.
8056. Even upon their small holdings?-Yes; upon the greater
number of their small holdings.
8057. And with spade labour?-Yes, with the spade, and the pick
and shovel, such as the men can manage for themselves.
8058. Is not that a very antiquated way of cultivating the
ground?-It may be antiquated, but I don't think there is any
better way coming into operation.
8059. Is there not ploughing?-Ploughing won't because, if the
ground of which these small crofts is composed is not broken up
with the pick, it is of very little consequence to plough it. I could
show examples of that in different parts of Shetland. Land
ploughed is not half the value of land trenched, and the fisherman
might trench a bit of land during winter for himself, and in the
course of a few years grow all that he required, or the next thing to
it, without costing the proprietor or anybody else anything.
8060. Would he grow a much heavier crop on land cultivated in
that way with the spade, than a large farmer would if he ploughed
his fields?-Yes, a much larger crop than a large farmer would if
he ploughed that same field. I have not the slightest doubt of that.
8061. Are you speaking now from your own observation of both
systems in Shetland?-I am.
8062. Do you know cases where an intelligent and active small
crofter, cultivating in the way you have described with the spade,
has grown heavier crops than a farmer, equally active and equally
intelligent, has grown with plough cultivation?-Yes, upon the
same kind of ground.
8063. Was that in this neighbourhood?-Yes.
8064. And the circumstances in both cases being exactly the same,
except the difference between spade and plough cultivation?-I
think the difference in that case would certainly be in favour of
the larger cultivator; because I think the agricultural intelligence
should be in favour of a man who works with the plough.
8065. You think the intelligence was perhaps superior in that
case?-I think it was superior, and the crop inferior.
8066. Is that a thing which you have frequently
observed?-Not very frequently, because land is not very
frequently cultivated in the way I have mentioned, as the
parties cultivating it, or who should cultivate it, don't have
any security. They don't know who they are working for.
There is a man pretty near me (Mr Gifford knows him),
who has been cultivating in the way I have mentioned, and
there is another man pretty near here who is cultivating in
the way that you speak of, and there is no comparison
whatever between the crops.
8067. Then is the remedy you suggest, a system of
lease-holding?-Yes.
8068. Is there any reason why that does not exist in
Shetland already?-I don't know any particular reason for
it.
8069. Have the tenants in many places not been offered
leases?-In some cases they have been offered leases, and I
believe they have refused them, but I don't know for what
reason.
8070. Have you any observation to make upon the subject
of fixing the price of the fishermen's catch at the end of the
season?-I have no observation to make on that subject, for
I am not able to see how far it would be to the advantage
of the fisherman to fix the price beforehand. I don't think
it would be an advantage to him; indeed, I think the
fisherman would be greater loser by a fixed price than he
is just now.
8071. Is that because he would still have to obtain his
supplies on credit?-Not so much that; but for one thing,
the merchant's or fish-curer's knowledge of what the
market is likely to be, is ahead of that of the fisherman; and
I think it holds good more or less, by common sense, that
the merchant should try to secure safety for himself in the
bargain which he makes. The probability therefore is, that
the fisherman would suffer more in that case than he does
at present.
8072. You think the merchant has better means of
foreseeing the course of the markets than the fishermen?-I
think so; and although I believe the merchants hereabouts
would generally give the men all the advantage they could,
I cannot see how it would be possible that by fixing the
price beforehand the fisherman would be the gainer.
8073. Is there any reason to suppose that the fishermen
have not a sufficient voice in fixing what the current price
is to be at the end of the season?-I don't think the
fishermen have any voice in that at all, and I don't know
how far the merchant or fish-curer [Page 197] has either.
It must be regulated by the south-country markets.
8074. Would it be any advantage to the fishermen in your
neighbourhood to have periodical payments up to a certain
amount of their catch, leaving the balance to be fixed, and
the price also, or a portion of it to be fixed at the end of the
season?-I don't think that would be any advantage, and
there is one disadvantage which would certainly follow
such a system. There are some men who will take care of
their money, pay it to them when you like; but those who
take least care of it would spend it as they got it, and the
merchants having paid ready money to them, there would
be nobody who would advance anything to them when they
wished to pay their land-rent or other debts.
8075. Are these careless men not equally apt, under the
present system, to take too much in goods, and to exhaust
their earnings too early?-Perhaps they are, but there is
some check upon them under the present system, whereas if
they got the money in their own hands there would be none.
8076. What is the check upon them?-The merchant himself will
be a check, if a man is running an account which he is not likely to
meet. I am not able to say how far the system you have suggested
would be an advantage to the people. It might be an advantage,
but I cannot see it.*
* The following letter was afterwards addressed to the
Commissioner by Mr. Fraser:-
SULLAM, 18<th January> 1872.
W. GUTHRIE, Esq.
SIR,-You will perhaps allow me to supplement the evidence
gave at Brae the other day by a few notes. I did not bring out all I
wished to say on the credit system. It would require more time
than could than be allowed to one witness, and more writing than I
would like to trouble you with now, to explain it fully.
Credit has become almost a necessity in Shetland in the
present condition of the islands and it has gone on so long that
the moral ton of society has suffered in consequence of it. The
present fish-curers and merchants have not created the system; it
existed before them, and they have taken it up as a necessary evil.
Shetland fisherman may be divided into three classes. The
first class are free men. They have never been in debt, and hope
never to be. The second class, under the present circumstances,
come in debt, but they don't like it, and get out of it as soon as
they can. The third class do not seem to have any particular
dislike to it. When the Commissioner asked me at Brae if I
had known men lose their independence by coming in debt, or
something like that, I had this class in my mind, and I was puzzled
what to say. I think the loss must have been sustained long, long
ago, for they have always appeared to me as a party who never had
anything of the sort to lose.
The moral evils of the system to this class need not be
mentioned. I will name one or two of its physical effects.
1. It largely increases pauperism, by raising a false standard
by which to regulate one's expenditure. When one of this class
falls from earning, he is fit only for the Parochial Board.
2. In case of a boat accident, or in a season like 1869, the
prospect is most appalling. In that year the crop was very largely a
failure; many of the people had gone as deep in debt as they could
go; and but for the aid sent by the Society of Friends, some of the
people would assuredly have died, and a still larger number could
not have sown their ground. The timely aid sent by the Friends
and those whom they enlisted with them in their benevolent work,
prevented both these consequences.
There are not a few families in Shetland-bereaved families, I
mean-supported by funds supplied by the benevolence of south
country ladies and gentlemen, who otherwise must have starved, or
fall with a crushing weight upon the Parochial Boards.
Now, for all this, so far as I know, there is only one remedy-
the improvement of the soil. The people are cultivating just the
same ground their <great-grandfathers> did, and most of the ground
now cultivated has never rested in the memory of living man, or
perhaps as long before. New earth is made to supply the yearly
waste, and thus the ground in the neighbourhood of a few small
farms is so robbed as to be rendered useless for generations,
unless it happens to have earth enough to allow of laying down the
surface, and a proprietor or factor who binds the people to do it.
There is, in general, plenty of unreclaimed land lying close by
these small farms which might be broken up and brought under
crop, and some of the old allowed to rest. In some places there are
plenty of stones to hedge in a small croft of land where grass might
be sown, but nothing is done. That unreclaimed land is made to
do duty by keeping life in a few cows-two, or more. During the
summer season, the merchant supplies the meal as long as he can,
and so things continue its they are. No man who may receive a
forty days', or even a six months', warning, is likely to exert
himself to bring more ground under crop. The thing wanted is
leasehold of the property by the tenant. But I am told the tenants
will not take a lease. It may be so; but before the statement be
admitted as true, the sort of lease offered them would require to be
seen. There are leases offered which no man of common sense
would take. There is property in Shetland, and plenty of it, that in
a 19 years lease could be made 50 per cent. better than it is, and be
a better bargain then, than now. And all this might be done
without costing the proprietor one shilling. Let him give it lease
on reasonable terms.
There is just one thing more I would like to state. I am referring
to the evidence given last year before the Commissioner in
Edinburgh, it was then stated by Mr. Walker, that the hills were
doing the people no good, and therefore he had taken them from
them. The latter part of this statement is true, but on the former
part of it I would beg to say, the native sheep reared on these hills
supply material for knitting, and the female part of the population
are clad almost entirely from that source alone. Then the female
members of the house generally provide during the winter months
warm underclothing for the fisherman, without which he could not
pursue his hazardous occupation. Bedclothes are also largely
supplied from the same source. Leave all these to be supplied by
the fisherman from his scanty earnings, and it requires no prophet
to foretell the result.
To say that the hills were doing the people no good, either
manifests great ignorance of the subject, or something worse.-I
am, Sir, your most obedient servant,
James Fraser.
Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS GIFFORD, examined,
8077. You are the factor on the estate of Busta?-I am.
8078. I believe that is the largest estate in Shetland?-I believe it
is.
8079. What is the rental?-£2700.
8080. Are there any leases on the estate?-Yes, there are a good
many.
8081. Are these of the small holdings or of the large holdings
only?-There are leases of both.
8082. Do the majority of the fishermen tenants have leases?-Not
the majority.
8083. Or a considerable number?-I could hardly say there are a
considerable number; only a small number, I think.
8084. I understand that the tenants on the Busta estate are entirely
free to fish for any person with whom they may choose to
engage?-Yes; and a great many of them go south and follow
different employments,
8085. How many large mercantile establishments or shops are
there on the Busta property which are held by fish-curers?-Four.
There is one at Voe, one at Brae, one at Hillswick, and one at
Lochend (Mr. Laurenson's).
8086. I presume these are all the large establishments of that kind
in the district of Delting and Northmaven, except the shop at
Mossbank?-No; Messrs. Hay & Company have one at North Roe,
at the very farthest extremity of Northmaven, and then there are
fishing stations at Stenness and Feideland.
8087. But at these stations the fishermen are all employed by one
or other of the merchants whose places of business you have
enumerated?-Yes.
8088. And all these merchants hold their shops under the Busta
trustees?-Yes.
8089. Have they all leases?-Yes.
8090. Can you tell me from recollection what the rents of these
shops are?-The shops are not separately rented; they are let along
with farms in every case.
8091. The merchants are not tacksmen of any tenants, but they
have farms?-Yes; merely their own farms.
8092. Is there any prohibition to sub-let on these farms?-Yes; in
every case.
8093. What are the rents of these four parties?-£327 for the four.
8094. In the district from Busta extending to the march of the
Gossaburgh property at North Roe, is the greater part of the land
under your management?-Yes.
8095. The greater part of it belongs to the Busta estate?-Yes;
three-fourths of it perhaps.
8096. Is there any understanding with the four merchants you have
mentioned, that no other shops than theirs shall be opened upon
your property?-No, a shop can be opened at any place.
8097. Have you objected in any case to the opening of shops, lest
it should interfere with the business of these lessees?-I have not.
There are several shops that have been opened lately.
8098. Were these small shops?-Yes; there was one you passed at
the head of the voe going to Hillswick.
[Page 198]
8099. Is that Arthur Harrison's?-Yes; and there is one opposite it
again, on the Roenessvoe side.
8100. Is there any apprehension on the part of the Busta trustees
lest the rent paid by the larger establishments should be reduced by
the opening of smaller shops?-None.
8101. Is it not the case that some difficulty was put in the way of
Harrison opening his shop?-I believe something was said about
it, but there was no reality in it.
8102. There was an objection made to it at first, was there not?-
Yes; I believe there was some objection made, but there is nothing
in the lease that could prevent it in any way.
8103. Nothing in what lease?-Nothing in Mr. Anderson's lease
binding us to refuse, and nothing in any lease on the Busta
property.
8104. Is there not an obligation in some of the leases of the tenants
that no shops are to be opened on their holdings?-They are not
allowed to open shops unless they ask permission. That is only to
be done with the consent of the trustees.
8105. You say that Harrison was refused permission at first, but
that shortly afterwards he was granted permission to open his
shop?-I did not refuse him permission at first. Some other
parties objected to him getting it, and said that no shops could be
opened within a certain distance of Hillswick.
8106. Was it Mr. Anderson who objected?-Yes, I believe he did
object.
8107. Was that by letter, or personally?-I don't think he objected
to me by letter. He may have mentioned it to the trustees, or their
agent, but his lease had been got some considerable time before
Harrison thought of opening the shop, so that he knew he could not
stop it.
8108. But he did object notwithstanding?-Yes; I think he
objected at first when he was taking his lease. I think he wished
it to be put in that way.
8109. The hesitation which existed about giving Harrison the
lease, or the delay in agreeing to give him his lease, was due, I
suppose, to Mr. Anderson's objection?-Harrison has got a lease.
8110. He has got it now, but it was refused, or at least delayed,
when he first applied for it, was it not?-No; Harrison was only
permitted to sell lately, but he had his lease before.
8111. But was not the permission to sell refused at first in
consequence of Mr. Anderson objecting to it?-There was
something said about it, but it was not practically refused.
8112. Had you had any communication with Mr. Adie before
finally giving Harrison permission to sell?-None whatever.
8113. Neither verbally nor by letter?-Neither verbally nor by
letter.
8114. Did you understand that Harrison was going to cure fish
for Mr. Adie?-Yes; I understood he was going to cure fish for
Mr. Adie, or any other body he could get them to cure for.
8115. And he informed you that he had made a contract with
Mr. Adie for curing fish at the time when you granted the
permission?-I think he went from Busta to Lerwick, and spoke
to Mr. Harrison and some other fish-curers, and I believe he
expected to get some from Mr. Harrison, and some from Mr.
Adie; but so far as I am aware, he has only got them from Mr.
Adie. But he was quite open to take them from any party he
could make the best bargain with.
8116. Had you any letter from Mr. Anderson objecting to Harrison
opening a shop?-No, so far as I am aware.
8117. You think he only wrote to some of the other trustees?-I
am not aware that he has written a letter about it since he got his
lease. I think he objected to it about the time he took his lease.
8118. But not at the time when Harrison was wanting to sell?-
No; I think at the time when Mr. Anderson took his lease he
wished it mentioned that no other party should be allowed to sell
within four miles of him, but that was not entered in the lease.
8119. Then do you mean that no objection was made by Mr.
Anderson to Harrison being allowed to sell goods at the time
when he (Harrison) was applying for that permission?-There is
no doubt Mr. Anderson may have objected to him, or to any other
party, doing so, but he could not do it in any way so as to affect
Harrison.
8120. Was that because the power of granting or refusing
permission lay entirely with you?-I suppose so.
8121. But, in point of fact, did Mr. Anderson make no objection to
you or to any of the Busta trustees, so far as you know, to Harrison
being allowed to sell?-I am not aware whether he made any
application to the trustees, or their agent. I know that he
mentioned the matter more than once but that is all I know.
8122. He said that he thought Harrison should not get
permission?-Yes; that is all he did. I am not aware that he
wrote to the trustees on the subject after he got his lease.
8123. But he mentioned it to you when you met him personally?-
Yes; he mentioned it more than once.
8124. And that was about the time when Harrison was applying for
leave to open his shop?-Yes.
8125. I presume there is no understanding between the Busta
trustees and any of the merchants whose establishments are upon
the estate that these merchants are responsible for the rents of
the men?-There is no understanding of the kind. There is not a
single tenant on the Busta estate, out of the whole 480 on it, or out
of the 530 with whom I have to do that any of the merchants is
liable for, even as a cautioner. That used to be the case some time
before but it has not been so for a long time.
8126. Do you know, in the course of your dealings with the
tenants, whether there is any arrangement between the merchants
you have named, or any of them, to the effect that when a man
ceases to fish for one and has a debt due to him, the merchant who
engages him must undertake that debt?-There is no such
arrangement that I am aware of. Some years ago, I believe, that
was done by some parties, but I don't think it is done by any of
them now. I refer to the practice of a merchant when he engages
men taking over the debt or part of the debt which they are due to
their old employer.
8127. You don't know about that?-Yes, I know about it. I know
that there was such an arrangement some years ago.
8128. I suppose if Mr. Anderson told you it not given up, you
would be quite prepared to believe that that arrangement still
exists?-I believe it was given up, because in most of the cases
when a merchant took over a debt in that way, very little of the old
debt was paid. I have known parties take over with debts of £15
and £20 standing against them, and these debts never were
reduced.
8129. Had you any concern with that arrangement yourself?-
None whatever. I merely heard of it.
8130. I believe most of the merchants or fish-curers are also
dealers in cattle?-I believe they are, to some extent.
8131. They purchase them both privately and at the periodical
sales which are held for each estate?-Yes.
8132. Would you describe shortly the nature of the sales that are
held? They are held twice a-year, are they not?-Yes, twice a-year
for the Busta and Ollaberry tenants, and they are sometimes held at
North Roe for the Gossaburgh tenants. But there are always sales
at Ollaberry and Mavisgrind, generally at the end of October, for
the tenants cattle.
8133. What is the reason for having sales for these particular
estates?-Merely to give the tenants the advantage of having their
cattle sold. I am not aware any other reason than that. At the
Busta sale cattle belonging to other parties are taken in, as well as
cattle belonging to the tenants, although it is only for the benefit of
the tenants on the estate that the sales are held.
8134. At these sales, are many of the cattle purchased [Page 199]
by the merchants?-A good many. With reference to my former
statement, that £327 is the rent of the four shops, I wish to explain
that that is much short of what it should be. It is nearly £450 for
the four; and my explanation of that is, that Mr. Adie has got a
large park in connection with his premises, and Mr. Inkster and
Mr. Anderson have the same at Brae and Hillswick, and they all
require to buy extensively for their parks.
8135. Are you acquainted with the practice in this country of a
creditor marking cattle, and holding them as a kind of security for
debt?-Yes.
8136. Is that a common thing here?-I don't know if it is
common; but I have known several cases where it has been
done.
8137. I suppose that where a merchant does that it is not held to
interfere with the landlord's hypothec or his rent?-No. The rents
are generally paid before the merchants interfere in any way with
the cattle.
8138. But when a merchant interferes with cattle in that way, or
purchases them in at a sale, he buys them of course subject to the
landlord's right?-If he buys them at a sale, he buys them direct
off, and pays the money for them; but if he secures the animal
privately, it generally remains with the party until it is taken away.
In a transaction of that kind, the animal is priced, and it is removed
at a convenient time for both parties. It does not come to a public
sale at all.
8139. The animal, in that case, is retained by the tenant?-It is
marked and priced and retained by the tenant, and taken over by
the purchaser when he wants it.
8140. The cattle are priced the time they are pledged, or marked as
it were?-I believe they are.
8141. Is that an arrangement between the merchant and the
tenant?-Entirely.
8142. And they arrange the price between themselves, or does
the merchant put the price on the cattle?-I think it is a mutual
arrangement, because there is much competition for cattle, that the
merchant must do that.
8143. Do you think there is any understanding between the
merchants, that when a marked beast is exposed at any one of
these periodical sales, the other merchants shall not bid against
the merchant for whom the animal has been marked, but that it
shall be knocked down to him?-I believe that very few of the
marked animals are ever exposed at the sales, but I have known
them exposed in some cases. I have known cattle being marked in
that way, or pledged to Mr. Inkster at Brae; and if brought to the
sale, they would have been entered in his name or in the name of
the party who brought them, and the sellers would have got the full
price.
8144. But more commonly, cattle that are so marked are taken
over by the merchant himself privately?-Yes. I have known no
other cases of parties bringing them to the sale, except Mr. Inkster.
8145. If a merchant does take over a beast in that way privately, I
suppose you would still hold him responsible for the rent, if still
unpaid, to the extent of the value of that beast, and if the period of
your hypothec had not expired?-Certainly.
8146. Do you often have occasion to arrange with merchants in
that sort of way?-No, very seldom. The rents are very generally
paid up.
8147. Do you think the introduction of a system of short
settlements, if it could be effected, would improve the character
of the people on the Busta estate?-I believe it would.
8148. You would be in favour of such a system?-Certainly I
would.
8149. From what you know of the country and of the people, do
you think such a system would be practicable?-I don't know if it
would be practicable in some cases. With regard to the fishermen,
I don't think a short-settlement system would be practicable.
8150. Is that because the men are so much in need of advances at
the beginning of the season?-Yes; they cannot get on until they
receive advances. There would be no fishing at all if there were
no advances.
8151. But under another system would advances be
impracticable?-I don't know what that other system might be.
8152. Suppose the agreement was that the fishermen were to
receive a bounty at the beginning of the season, which would
enable them to equip themselves, and that the price for the fish
was fixed at the end, so that the men would have the advantage of
any rise that might take place, would that system be a better one
than the present, in your opinion?-They would not have the
advantage of the rise if the price were fixed.
8153. I am not supposing the price to be fixed. I am supposing the
man to get a bounty which would be calculated very considerably
within the probable value of his catch of fish for the season, and
that the settlement was made at the end according to the market
price when the fisherman would get anything additional that might
be due?-I am not aware how that system might work.
8154. Have you any knowledge of the system adopted at Wick
with regard to the herring fishery?-Yes. I know something about
it.
8155. Is there not some system of that kind followed there?-I
could not say just now.
8156. Do you think the system of paying for hosiery in goods is a
good one?-No; I think it is a very bad system. I think the hosiery
should be paid for in money, and the goods sold at the same price.
8157. Do you think the system has a bad effect in the separation of
interests it creates between the different members of the same
family?-I think it has a bad effect in this way, that some parties
would be more careful if they had their money, whereas at the
present time they don't have the chance of that.
8158. Does the same objection apply to the long settlements with
the fishermen which you make with regard to the system of paying
for the hosiery?-Yes. There is often a long settlement in the
payment for the hosiery too. There is an account run for the
payment of hosiery with many of the women. That would not
signify so much if they were paid in cash when the settlement
comes; but I am not aware that that is done, except perhaps in a
few cases.
8159. Do you think women are induced under the present system
to take more articles of dress than they require?-Not of dress.
8160. But they take anything they require unless money?-Some
of them take provisions, and meal, and tea.
8161. In your part of the country, are provisions given for hosiery
as well as goods?-Yes, and I know that hereabout a little cash is
given too, but in very exceptional cases.*
*Mr. Gifford handed in the following statement, showing the
number of holdings on the Busta and other estates under his charge
and the amount of rent-
<No. of holdings on Busta. No. of holdings on other properties.>
Under £1 29 Under £1 2
" 2 38 " 2 2
" 3 53 " 3 5
" 4 83 " 4 4
" 5 101 " 5 8
" 6 92 " 6 9
" 7 86 " 7 8
" 8 19 " 8 4
" 9 11 " 9 4
" 10 2 " 12 2
" 12 7 " 14 1
" 14 4 Larger holdings 1
Larger holdings 5 50
480
Total rental, £2701 13 8 Total rental, £344 2 0
Brae, January 13, 1872, Mrs. CHRISTIAN JOHNSTON, examined.
8162. Are you the wife of a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-My
husband was a fisherman once, but he does not fish now.
8163. Do you knit or weave?-I both knit and make gray cloth.
[Page 200]
8164. Do you sell both these articles at Brae or in Lerwick?-I sell
them to any person that I get the wool from. I don't have wool of
my own.
8165. By whom are you generally employed?-I have made some
gray cloth for Mr. Anderson and some for Mr. Adie.
8166. Is it mostly gray cloth that you make?-Yes.
8167. Do you go to the shops and get the wool when you are out of
it?-Yes.
8168. Do you buy it, or is it given to you?-We buy it.
8169. When you go back with it, are you paid for the work which
you have put upon it?-We buy the wool, and then they buy the
cloth from us again.
8170. What do you pay for the wool?-I bought 28 lbs. of it, and it
was 1s. a lb.
8171. Do you spin it yourself?-Yes.
8172. How do you make the cloth?-There are men on the islands
called wabsters who weave it.
8173. Then you spin the wool and take it to the wabsters to
weave?-Yes.
8174. Do you pay for the wool when you get it at first?-We
cannot pay for the wool until we get the cloth.
8175. Is it put down in your account?-Yes.
8176. And you are charged 1s. for it?-Yes.
8177. Do you take your web back to the merchant, or does the
wabster take it to him?-I take the web and dress it, and go to the
merchant with it.
8178. Who pays the wabster?-The merchant of course; it comes
off what I have to get.
8179. Is the wabster paid at the time when he does the work, or
when you come back from the merchant?-I pay him when I come
back from the merchant after I have sold the cloth.
8180. How much cloth would you make out of 28 lbs. of wool?-I
made 27 yards out of it.
8181. You make about a yard of cloth out of a pound of wool?-
Yes; that is generally the way of it when it is ordinary wool.
8182. What is the price put upon the cloth when you take it back to
the merchant?-That is just as the price stands; sometimes the
price is up and sometimes not.
8183. But you spoke of a particular time when you got 28 lbs. of
wool: was that long ago?-I got it in Christmas week, and I went
back with it in the month of April.
8184. What did you get for it?-I got 2s. a yard.
8185. That would be 1s. a yard, for your work and the wabster?-
Yes.
8186. Is that about an ordinary price?-It was the price that was
given then.
8187. Do you sometimes get more than that?-Yes; if the price is
up. I have got as high as 3s. 5d. for it.
8188. Was that long ago?-It is a few years since; I cannot
recollect exactly.
8189. How are you paid for the cloth: do you get money for it?-
Some pay in money and some not.
8190. Where do you get money?-I have got money in Mr. Adie's.
8191. Did you get money at that time when you went in April?-
No.
8192. Why?-I don't know.
8193. What did you get?-I had just to take anything that was in
the shop
8194. Were you told that you would not get money?-Yes.
8195. Did you want money?-Of course, I wanted a little.
8196. How much did you ask for?-I asked for the wabster's
money. It was rather more than 6s.
8197. Did you get it?-Yes.
8198. Did you say you had to pay the wabster?-Yes; he was an
old man, and I had to pay him.
8199. Why did you not get the rest in money?-The merchant
made an objection that he would not.
8200. Why?-I don't know why.
8201. Did he say the bargain was that was to be paid in goods?-
No, he could not say that.
8202. Why? Had you agreed upon a price before?-No.
8203. You were just to take the price that was the market price
when you brought the cloth back?-Yes.
8204. Did you offer to take a less price if he gave the money?-He
would give no money at all.
8205. Are you ever paid in money for your cloth?-Yes. I have
been paid in money for some cloth.
8206. Is it a general thing in the country to pay in money, or to pay
in goods?-When people have wool of their own, they make a
difference.
8207. How would they make a difference?-Because if the wool
had belonged to me I could have gone to any other merchant and
sold it, but the wool was his.
8208. Was not the wool your own in this case?-If I had been able
to pay for the wool when I took out, then it would have been my
own.
8209. You mean that you got the wool on credit?-Yes.
8210. You had bought the wool, but you had not paid for it?-Yes.
8211. It was entered against you at 1s. a pound?-Yes.
8212. Then the wool was your own, although you might be owing
Mr. Adie money for the price?-It was not Mr. Adie that that wool
belonged to: it was Mr. Anderson that I got it from.
8213. And he would not give you the money at all?-He would
not.
8214. Why did you not take it to somebody else and sell it for,
money? If you had done that, you could then have sent the 28s. to
Mr. Anderson, which you were due to him for the wool: did you
not think of doing that?-No; I did not think of doing it.
8215. Could you have done that?-I might; I don't know; I never
asked.
8216. Do you think Mr. Anderson would have objected, or would
he have allowed you to take the cloth away again after you had
brought it?-I cannot say because I never asked about that.
8217. Did you ever ask money before with which to pay the
wabster?-Yes.
8218. Did you get it?-I have got money before from Mr.
Anderson himself,-money to pay the wabster.
8219. Did you get as much as you wanted for that purpose?-Yes;
just for the wabster.
8220. But not for your own work?-No.
8221. You had to take what was due you for your own work in
goods?-Yes.
8222. I suppose you always wanted these goods for your own
use?-We are always needing goods.
8223. But were you quite content to take the goods in place of
money?-Yes, sometimes.
8224. You would rather have had the money sometimes?-Yes.
8225. But was it not the rule in the trade, and was it not the
bargain made with you, that you were to take goods, and not to
seek money?-No; there was no bargain made about it.
8226. Is it not the understanding in the trade that the cloth is to be
paid for in goods and not in money?-I don't know.
8227. Have you made any cloth since that?-Yes. I made a piece
for Mr Adie, but I got the money for it.
8228. Did you get money for the whole value?-Yes.
8229. Or was it just what you required for the wabster?-No; I got
money for all that I had to get.
8230. Did you get the wool on that occasion from Mr. Adie?-
Yes.
8231. He just charged you for the wool and gave you the whole
balance for your work in money?-Yes.
8232. What quantity was there of that?-I don't recollect; we are
always getting something out of the shop.
8233. Then you did not get the whole price of your work at that
time in money?-No; I had got something out of the shop before
that I was needing.
8234. You were due an account at the shop?-Yes.
[Page 201]
8235. Was that account as much as the value of the cloth?-No.
8236. You had something over to get?-Yes.
8237. Did you get what was over in money?-Yes, I got £1.
8238. Was that lately?-It was before Christmas.
8239. Do you keep an account with Mr. Adie at Voe?-No, I keep
no account.
8240. But you had an account at the time when you settled for that
cloth?-Yes.
8241. How long had that account been running?-For about two
years.
8242. Did you go and get the wool and make the cloth in order to
settle up that account?-Yes.
8243. Was your husband fishing at the time when you were due
that account?-No; it was my own account.
8244. Is it a usual thing for a woman, when she is making cloth in
that way, to have an account of her own with the merchant?-Yes.
8245. She gets the goods she wants and then settles for them when
she brings the cloth?-Yes.
8246. How often do you settle when you have an account running
in that way?-It is not often that I make the cloth, for I have very
little time in which to make it.
8247. Do you ever knit?-I knit very little except what is required
for my own family.
8248. Do any of your daughters help you in making the cloth or in
knitting?-Yes.
8249. You all work at it?-Yes.
8250. Have you separate accounts, or do you all keep the same
account with the merchant for your cloth?-We all keep the same
account. We have no separate accounts.
8251. Do you think you would be better off if you got the whole
payment of your cloth in money?-We might be better, but we are
always needing something from the merchant.
8252. You don't think you could buy your goods any cheaper if
you had money?-I don't know.
Brae, January 13, 1872, MRS GRACE WILLIAMSON, examined.
8253. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes.
8254. Do you knit and also make cloth?-Yes.
8255. Have you heard what Mrs. Johnston said just now?-Yes.
8256. Have you the same way of dealing about your cloth which
she has described?-No. I do not make any cloth except with
what little wool I have of my own, and I sell it. I am paid for it
just at the price which is going.
8257. Are you paid for it in money or in goods?-I get the price
either in goods or in money, either way I choose to ask it.
8258. Do you generally get the same price for your cloth if you
take it in money?-Yes. I sold a piece this winter to Mr. Adie, and
I got the same in money for it as I would have got in goods.
8259. How much did you sell?-I sold about 30 yards.
8260. What was the price of it?-3s. 1d.
8261. Was the price higher then than it was in April?-Yes.
8262. Was your cloth better than Mrs. Johnston's?-I do not
know.
8263. Was that paid to you altogether in money?-No; I took some
goods.
8264. Had you an account at the shop at that time?-No. I never
had any kind of credit in the shop before. I did not mark anything.
8265. Had you got anything before from the shop at all?-No.
8266. You just took some goods at the time when you took in the
cloth?-Yes.
8267. What was the price of the goods you bought?-I can
scarcely recollect.
8268. Was it £2 or £3?-No; I think it was something more than
£1, but I cannot recollect.
8269. And you got the rest in money?-Yes.
8270. That would be £3 or £4 you would get in money?-I don't
recollect what it was. My husband was along with me, and I did
not keep an account for myself.
8271. Was it your husband that took in the cloth?-He and I were
together.
8272. Have you always continued dealing in the same manner,
getting what you wanted in goods, and as much as you required in
money?-Yes, of course. Mr. Inkster is the only merchant we
have any credit with.
8273. Have you an account with Mr. Inkster?-Yes.
8274. Does your husband fish for him?-Yes.
8275. And do you sell cloth to him too?-Yes; I sold some last
year to him.
8276. Have you a book with him?-No; we don't keep any
account ourselves. The things are entered in the book which
he keeps himself.
8277. Have you an account with him in your own name as well
as your husband?-I don't have any account in my name. One
account serves for us both.
8278. Is it customary in these parts for one account to do for both
husband and wife?-I don't know about any one except myself.
8279. Do you knit any?-A little but the cloth is the most that I do.
8280. Do you get money for your cloth at Mr. Inkster's place if
you want it?-Yes, we get money if we ask for it.
8281. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year
when you settle?-Yes.
8282. That balance is for your husband's fish and for your
cloth?-Yes.
8283. That is to say, what you have to get for your fish and your
cloth is a good deal more than you have to pay for things you have
got out of the shop?-Of course it is.
8284. And you have to pay your rent out of that balance?-Yes.
8285. Have you always been in the habit of getting money for your
wabster?-Yes; when we require money and ask for it we get it.
8286. Would you have got as much money two or three years ago
as you got the last time you went with cloth?-No; cloth was not
so high last year as it was then.
8287. But suppose you had, two or three years ago, taken a web
that was worth £4, would you have got £2 or £3 in money on the
price of it?-Yes, if I had asked for it I would have got it.
8288. Would you have got that five years ago if you had been
selling it at that time?-I don't know about five years ago. I don't
recollect.
8289. Did you ever get as much money before as you got on that
last occasion?-Yes; but we took goods when we required them.
There were some years ago when we were getting a bigger price.
Mr. Anderson gave 3s. 8d. out-takes (<i.e.> in goods), and 3s. 5d.
in money; but I don't recollect how long ago that was.
8290. Then there were two prices for your cloth?-Yes.
8291. Did you ever sell £4 worth of cloth four or five years ago?-
I don't think it.
8292. Did you ever sell £2 worth?-I think so.
8293. Did you ever get one-half or three-fourths of that in
money?-I cannot recollect; it was always my husband who
went with it, and he would recollect better.
8294. Did you ever get above 5s. in money for your wabster before
this time?-Yes; we have got more than that, if we asked for it.
8295. How much more?-I cannot say exactly. We just got what
we asked, unless the price was all the lower.
8296. Did you ever get 10s. in cash before?-Yes.
8297. Did you ever get 15s. in cash?-Yes.
[Page 202]
8298. Or £1?-Yes: I have got that too, if I had to get, and if I was
not taking out goods.
8299. If you got £1, how much would be the price of the web
which you took in?-I could not say unless I recollected exactly
what number of yards there were.
8300. But you said you never sold as much as £4 worth before?-I
don't mind about that. I may have done it, but I don't recollect.
8301. Do you ever mind of selling £3 worth?-Yes.
8302. Did you ever get £1 in cash out of that?-Yes; I would have
got £1 out of that.
8303. But did you get it?-Well, we have got it, but I cannot mind
the time exactly.
8304. Do you think it has been easier to get cash for your webs
during the last year than it was before?-It may have been; but we
were always needing goods, and it is just as well for us to take
goods when we are needing them, as to get money and go
anywhere else farther off. Of course, if we did not get goods
here at a reasonable price, we might get them farther off.
8305. I suppose you know that you want the goods yourself?-
Yes.
8306. And you know that the merchant would rather sell you the
goods than give you money?-I cannot say that I ever saw any
case with any merchant I ever dealt with where he would not give
us the money if we had asked for it. I never was much in debt to
any merchant.
8307. But it was mostly your husband that took the goods in?-
Yes. I never was much in with any merchant, and therefore I
could go to any place where thought I could get most for my work.
Brae, January 13, 1872, MARGARET WILLIAMSON, examined.
8308. Do you live in Muckle Roe?-Yes.
8309. Do you knit or make cloth?-I knit mostly, but I make some
cloth too. I knit men's shirts and women's sleeves.
8310. Do you knit with your own wool?-I have to buy some but I
have some of my own too.
8311. The wool was not given out to you to knit?-No.
8312. Where do you sell what you knit?-For the last three years I
have sold it in Lerwick.
8313. Do you always go to Lerwick with it?-Yes, with all that I
knit.
8314. Do you always get goods for your knitting?-Yes; I get
goods, because I can get nothing else.
8315. Do you want to get money?-I hardly ever ask for money. I
asked for a penny the last time out of 35s., and they refused to give
it to me. I bought all that I could buy out of the work I had taken
in and when it came to the last penny I asked for it, but they would
not give it. That was at Mr. Linklater's.
8316. What did he say he would give it in: sweeties?-No; they
would not keep any sweeties for fear of having to give them.
8317. What did they give you?-They gave me the penny at
length, but they said we must take goods.
8318. Did you need all these goods for your own use?-I needed
them all at that time, but I don't need them all now. If I knit any, I
need hardly any goods now.
8319. If you were knitting now, you would rather have the
money?-Yes; because I am needing hardly anything else.
8320. Do you live with your parents?-Yes.
8321. I suppose you would like to help them a little in keeping the
house if you could get money for your knitting?-Yes; because my
father is an old man, and is very sickly, and he is not able to keep
the house as he used to do.
8322. Is it the case that you cannot help him because you cannot
get money for your knitting?-Yes; I cannot help him in that way.
8323. Have you ever given away any of the goods you have got to
your neighbours for money or for provisions?-No; I kept them all
to myself.
8324. Do you sell the cloth you make in the same way that Mrs.
Johnston and Mrs. Williamson have stated?-Yes.
8325. You get some wool from the merchant?-Yes.
8326. And that is set down against your name in an account?-
Yes; until the cloth is brought back to the shop.
8327. When the cloth is brought back, the price the wool is
deducted?-Yes.
8328. Do you get the balance in money?-Yes always in money, if
I like to take it in money.
8329. Do you sometimes take it in goods?-I generally take it in
money, because I am not needing goods.
8330. Do you think you would get a bigger price if you took it in
goods?-Sometimes it is all the same. This year it is all the same
whether you take money or goods.
8331. But some years it is different?-Yes, a little.
8332. Does the merchant tell you generally that he would rather
you were to take the price out in goods?-No. The most of the
cloth which I have made has been for Mr. Adie, and he gives me
the money just soon as the goods.
Brae, January 13, 1872, GIDEON WILLIAMSON, examined.
8333. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am.
8334. Have you a piece of land there?-Yes.
8335. Whom do you fish for generally?-For Inkster. I have
fished for him for five years.
8336. Do you settle every year in the spring?-We settle at
Hallowmas for the twelve months.
8337. Do you always deal in Mr. Inkster's shop-Yes; I deal
oftenest there.
8338. What do you go for elsewhere?-It is very trifling. My
dealings are mostly with him.
8339. Is that because you fish for him?-Yes.
8340. Have you an account?-Yes.
8341. Are you obliged to deal on credit?-Yes, sometimes I am,
because I must have supplies.
8342. Is that the reason why you go to his shop?-No. I would
just as soon deal with him, if I had money, as I would go
elsewhere.
8343. Is there any other place hereabout where you could deal?-
Yes; but I would just as soon deal with Mr. Inkster as with any
other man.
8344. Are you generally behind at the settlement?-Sometimes I
am a little.
8345. But sometimes you have a balance to get in cash?-
Sometimes; but sometimes the seasons are so bad that I have
to go to him for a little supplies.
8346. I suppose that is the reason why you continue to fish for
him? If you owe him a little money, you don't like to go and fish
for another man?-I don't see what I could get by fishing for
another; I pay him the same for his goods, and he pays me the
same for my fish as another would do.
8347. Are his goods of as good a quality as in other shops?-Yes.
8348. Have you known any fishermen who have left one employer
and gone to fish for another?-No; not that I could point out.
8349. A man generally continues to fish for the same merchant?-
Yes; unless it may be a man who changes and goes south.
8350. But if he remains in the same place, does he generally go on
fishing for the same merchant for years?-Yes; but I have heard of
some of them shifting.
8351. What do they shift for generally?-They may shift to get
chances in boats belonging to other curers.
8352. They think they may be better off perhaps by getting into
another crew?-Yes.
[Page 203]
8353. Do men sometimes want to shift to another crew or another
master, and are prevented from doing so because they are in
debt?-I have never tried that.
8354. Do you know whether that is ever the case?-I could not
answer that question, because I would not like to say anything I
was not sure about.
8355. I suppose you would not think of leaving Mr. Inkster so long
as you were in his debt?-Even if I was clear with him, I see no
good I could do to myself by leaving him. If I ask him for money,
I get it, just the same as out-takes; and I get out-takes from him,
just the same as if I was paying down ready money for them.
8356. Do you think you would be any better off if you had not to
run such a long account?-I don't know. A poor man generally
can have very little until it comes perhaps to the twelvemonth's
end; and if it were not that we have sometimes a beast to sell,
or something like that, we would have very little to live on
throughout the year, because the fishing time is only for about
three months in the summer.
8357. You think if you were settled with at shorter periods, you
would not have enough to carry you through the year?-Yes.
8358. And you could not settle with the merchant at the end,
because the account you have to pay is bigger than what you have
to get?-Yes.
8359. Is that sometimes the case?-Yes; because for some years
there has been a good deal of bread to get in consequence of lean
crops, and that brings the poor fishermen very much down.
Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN WOOD, examined.
8360. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I am.
8361. Do you fish for Mr. Inkster?-Yes.
8362. Have you heard what Gideon Williamson said?-Yes.
8363. Is your way of dealing the same as he has described?-Yes;
the very same.
8364. Have you anything different to say?-No.
8365. How long have you fished for Mr. Inkster?-Nine years.
8366. Have you ever wished to change?-No.
8367. Do you always get your supplies from him?-Yes.
8368. Are you generally somewhat behind at the end of the
year?-Sometimes.
8369. Who did you fish for before?-Mr. Anderson.
8370. Why did you leave him?-Because it was more convenient
for us where we lived to fish for Mr. Inkster.
8371. Were you clear with Mr. Anderson when you left him?-
Very nearly. I think I was due him £1 or so.
8372. When did you pay that up?-Mr. Inkster paid it up for me.
He sent it to Mr. Anderson at the end of the season.
8373. Is that a usual thing to do when a man has shifted?-Yes,
8374. His new employer pays up the whole of his debt?-Yes.
8375. Have you heard of that being done often?-Yes; I have
heard of it being done.
Brae, January 13, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, examined.
8376. You are a tenant on the Busta estate?-Yes.
8377. Do you fish any?-No.
8378. I understand you have come here to say something about
your line of life and its bearing upon this inquiry: what is it?-My
principal means of living is that I get an annuity for keeping some
pauper lunatics belonging to several parishes, Delting and
Tingwall, and so forth.
8379. What have you got to say about that?-At the time when I
commenced to do that, I unfortunately was not clear with the man
who now supplies me.
8380. Who is that?-Mr. Thomas Adie.
8381. Had you been a fisherman before?-No; I had been a sawyer
for many years.
8382. Had you kept an account at Voe?-Yes.
8383. Were you behind with it?-Yes, a little.
8384. How much?-I could not exactly say, but it was a good deal.
8385. Was it £20?-Perhaps more at times, and sometimes less;
but we will say it was that.
8386. What have you to say about it?-I want to speak about the
way of supply, and the prices of provisions and other things; I
never had my money at command.
8387. How long ago is it since you had that debt?-It is perhaps
ten years ago since I commenced with one pauper, and then I got
another one. I gave Mr. Adie leave to draw my money with which
to settle my accounts, and I got supplies from him.
8388. Where do you draw your money from?-From the parishes
that I had got the lunatics from.
8389. Was it because you were due Mr. Adie money when you left
that you gave him leave to draw your money?-It was not that
altogether. It was quite right, when I was due him an account, that
he should be paid for it, but he drew my money from the parishes
and supplied me with meal. Perhaps I required ten or twelve sacks
a year. I do not get it all from him now. If I had had the use of my
money, I might have tried to settle the old account with Mr. Adie
and have got my meal where I liked, but I could not do that. With
the money I could have got my articles at cost price. I asked my
money from Mr. Adie, but he refused to give it me some years ago.
8390. He refused to give it you because you had made an
arrangement with him that he was to draw the money?-Yes;
not to lay it out, but only to draw it for me.
8391. Was it not the arrangement that he was to draw it for you
in order that he might pay his own debt?-We never had any
arrangement of that kind, but that was perhaps considered to be
the arrangement both by him and me. I would have done that
willingly.
8392. Have you squared up your accounts with Mr. Adie at any
time?-It is a good while since I was able to do that without
injuring me otherwise; but Adie having the use of my money, I
got my things from him.
8393. What was the account for which was due to Mr. Adie?-For
meal principally, and clothing.
8394. Have you got an account?-Yes; it is in Mr. Adie's book at
Voe.
8395. Have you gone over every year at settling time and squared
up your account, and seen how much you were due to him, or how
much he was due to you, at the end of the year?-Sometimes I
did and sometimes not. I knew that I was not able to meet that
account, because I did not have the use of my money. If I wanted
a dozen sacks of meal, I was always told that there was 2s. a sack
as commission for the risk of getting it, and ultimately I wrote
to the meal dealers in the south, and I found that there was a
difference of 10s. on the sack of meal; that, upon 12 sacks, would
have been a saving of £6 alone.
8396. Did you give Mr. Adie an order to the inspector to pay the
money to him which was due to you?-Yes, I told Mr. Adie to
draw it for me, and I signed an order that he was to draw it.
8397. And he has drawn it ever since?-Yes.
8398. Was that for the money which you were to get from Delting
parish?-Yes.
8399. Is Mr. Adie a member of the Parochial Board of that
parish?-Yes.
8400. Is he the chairman?-I don't know.
8401. Who is the inspector of that parish?-Mr. Louttit.
8402. What do you think can be done for you?-I made my
complaint to Mr. Adie lately about the state of these things; but
it is not my wish to mention the names of any parties. It is only
the practice that I object to.
[Page 204]
8403. What practice do you refer to?-This truck system, and the
enormous prices that are charged.
8404. What have you to say about the prices? You have told me
that you can save £6 on 12 sacks of meal by dealing south?-Yes,
by dealing with Tod Brothers. I wrote to them about it, and they
answered me.
8405. Have you got their answer?-No, I have not got it, but I
remember it quite well.
8406. How long ago was that?-Just two or three years since.
8407. What was the price of Mr. Adie's meal at that time?-It was
34s. per sack for Indian corn meal.
8408. What was the price of Messrs. Tod Brothers'?-22s.
8409. That was it difference of 12s. per sack?-Yes, but it left me
to pay the freight, which would be about 2s. 6d.
8410. Could you have got the meal brought up here for 2s. 6d.?-
Yes, or whatever the 'Queen of the Isles' charged.
8411. How many sacks of Indian corn meal would you require in it
year?-Perhaps about a dozen sacks.
8412. Do you feed the lunatics on that meal?-No, not the
lunatics, but my own family, and sometimes the lunatics too.
8413. Have you made any comparison between the prices charged
at Mr. Adie's shop and elsewhere?-Yes. I could buy it at Mr.
Robertson's store, at Vidlin, for 27s.; that, upon 12 sacks, would
make it difference 4s. between the two places.
8414. Could you not have got your meal from Mr. Robertson's
store?-I got some of it, because I kept a party from Lunnasting,
and I got part of my supplies there.
8415. Did you get your supplies for that lunatic from
Lunnasting?-Occasionally, when I asked them.
8416. Had you an account there?-Yes; I could either get money
or anything that I wanted which was due. I could not have done
that with Mr. Adie; and therefore I have never been able to get
clear of my debt to him.
8417. Did you bring your supplies all the way from Mr.
Robertson's store to where you lived?-Yes.
8418. Was that because you kept a lunatic pauper from that
parish?-Yes. I took advantage of that, because I could get my
goods cheaper there but I could have got money as well, and have
gone to any other place with it. If I had had money to get from Mr.
Adie, I would have got it from him too with good will, but I never
had it to get, and it is that which has kept me deeper and deeper in
spite of all I could do.
8419. Could you not have gone to the Parochial Board of Delting,
and got your money whenever you pleased, instead of letting Mr.
Adie draw it?-I might have got it, but Mr. Adie at one settlement
made up a line, and I was compelled to sign it, that he was to draw
all the money which I had to get for the lunatic from that parish. I
signed it because he wrote me a letter saying I was to come down
and pay my account, and then to transfer my custom, which I was
not able to do without leaving me destitute.
8420. Have you got that letter?-No.
8421. What did you do with it?-I just destroyed it carelessly.
8422. How long ago was that?-I could not exactly say. If I state
it incorrectly, it is not done willingly, but it may have been three
years since. At the same time I asked Mr. Adie to give me the use
of my money, and to keep some of it in order to pay the old
account, but he did not do it, and that is the main cause why I am
so far behind. I could have had my account with him paid by the
profits I could have saved from dealing in the south; I am perfectly
sure of that.
8423. But if you wanted your money, why could you not have gone
to the Parochial Board and told them to pay you, and not to regard
Mr. Adie's orders about it?-What would have become of what I
was due to Mr. Adie if I had got the money from the Parochial
Board? It was my duty, and I had to pay it to him. At that very
time Mr. Adie told his shopman not to supply me unless I came to
his shop with cash.
8424. But you wanted to stop going to him because you thought
you could get your supplies cheaper elsewhere?-If I had got my
supplies in the south, I could have paid him something yearly and
lived better. I was making my complaint to Mr. Adie lately, and
he promised (and no man was ever deceived in anything that Mr.
Adie ever promised, neither was I) that for the future I should get
my things at cash price. So far as I am concerned, I have no cause
of complaint now; but that has been the cause why I am in debt.
8425. How long ago was that arrangement made about getting
your things at cash price?-It may be two or three months ago, and
I have got a part of the debt realized since. I have no reason to
doubt Mr. Adie's word, or that of any of his sons.
8426. You have one lunatic from Delting, and you have another
from Lunnasting?-Yes. I have not got a lunatic from Lunnasting,
but a pauper that I keep at a separate house.
8427. But in consequence of having that pauper you get some
supplies at Vidlin?-Yes.
8428. Who pays you for the keep of that pauper?-The inspector,
Mr. John Anderson, of Lunnasting.
8429. Was there any arrangement made when you got that pauper,
that you were to take supplies at Vidlin?-None whatever; it is by
my own will that I go there. I can get money, or anything I like;
but when I find it convenient, and that the goods are cheaper there
than elsewhere, I go and take them.
8430. Are Vidlin and Voe the only places where you get
supplies?-Yes; I have dealt with Mr. Adie for thirty years;
and I have no cause of complaint against him, except the
enormous price which he generally charges for his goods.
8431. Is there any other article which you could name besides
meal which is charged at an enormous price?-This place is
farther north, and the goods here should be charged a shade
dearer, because there is more expense in bringing them.
8432. But can you mention any one article, such as cotton or
cloth, which is dearer here than at Lerwick?-You can make a
better bargain in Lerwick than in the north.
8433. Have you done that frequently?-Yes.
8434. You only keep three paupers?-Yes.
Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES ROBERTSON, examined.
8435. Are you a fisherman in Muckle Roe?-I was a fisherman at
one time, but I am not fishing now; I am too old to go to sea.
8436. Has it always been the practice of the fishermen there to
deal with the merchants they sell their fish to?-Yes; for forty
years back. I have been about thirty years in the fishing.
8437. Have you been at the Faroe fishing?-No; I always went to
the ling fishing.
8438. Did you always keep an account with the merchant who
employed you?-Yes.
8439. Did you always fish for the same merchant?-Yes, for John
Anderson & Co. and for Mr. Leisk, who was there before them.
8440. You always had an account at Hillswick?-Yes.
8441. Did you always go to Hillswick for your supplies?-No;
only twice a year. I went for my fishing gear before the season
began, and then at the end of the season I went again to settle.
8442. Did you get supplies then?-Yes, if I needed them.
8443. Did you always get the balance in cash when it was due?-
Very often it was not due, and I could not expect a thing which
was not due.
8444. Why was it not due?-Because of the bad [Page 205]
fishings, and of the meal being very dear then; much more so
than it is now.
8445. Did you always get more supplies than the value of your
fish?-No, I did not do that always.
8446. But generally?-No, not at any time; I always tried to deal
so as not to be in debt.
8447. But you said there was seldom anything to get at settling?-
There was very seldom any cash that I had to take, because they
were lean fishings.
8448. And because you had got supplies up to the value of your
fish?-No; but I did not ask for any supplies beyond what I
required for the fishing, and perhaps a little meal for my family,
which they could not do without.
8449. But the price of that was generally as much you had to get at
settlement?-It was.
8450. Was it ever more?-Not very often.
8451. Did you ever think of changing from one employer to
another?-No, I did not think of that, because I did not see any
good it could do me.
8452. Do you think you would not have got a better price?-No.
8453. And you would not have got better supplies from another
merchant?-The only merchant I ever dealt with was Mr. Inkster,
because his shop is nearest to me, and I always found his goods as
cheap as any other man's.
8454. Would it not have been far more convenient for you to have
got all your goods from Mr. Inkster's, instead of carrying them
from Hillswick?-Yes; but with regard to lines and hooks, and
such things as we require for the fishing, we could not get them
from Mr. Inkster, because we were bound to go for them to the
man that we fished for.
8455. How long is it since you gave up fishing?-About eight
years ago.
8456. You continued to go to the merchant for whom you fished
until that time?-Yes.
8457. Did you never think of fishing for Mr. Inkster?-No,
because the men I fished with in the boat wanted to go to Mr.
Anderson, and I did not want to make discord in the boat's crew.
8458. Have you heard the evidence of the other witnesses from
Muckle Roe, Gideon Williamson and John Wood?-Yes.
8459. Is there anything additional that you want to say?-No.
8460. Do you think the fishermen are generally quite free to
engage to fish to any employer they like?-They are quite right
to engage to any man that would give the best bargain and the
best agreement, and that is the thing they should do.
8461. But they would just get as good a bargain from one
merchant as from another?-Yes, equally the same because it
appears that one fish merchant won't pay more for his fish
than another does.
8462. So that the fishermen would have no advantage in
changing?-No.
8463. They cannot better themselves by shifting?-They cannot.
8464. Has that been your experience since you have been a
fisherman?-It has been my experience all my life, and many
besides me have found the same thing.
8465. They would like to better to themselves, but they could
not?-That is the very thing.
8466. Do you think they would be better by curing their own
fish?-They have no chance of curing their own fish, because
those who do so have to find booths for them until the crafts come
to take away the cured fish. Besides, poor men like fishermen
cannot do that.
8467. They have to buy salt for the curing, and that costs a lot of
money?-Yes.
8468. So that they are obliged to give their fish green to the
merchant?-Yes.
8469. Have you ever known men to make any attempt to cure fish
for themselves?-I have.
8470. Have they not been any better off in that way?-If the
fish-curers had been agreeable to them doing that, they would have
made a little off it. They would have saved, perhaps, a few pounds
on the ton, but they could not find booths in which to put their fish
at the season when they require to be housed. They had to pay
cellar rent to the parties to whom the booths belonged.
8471. Could they sell their fish at as good a price as the curers
could?-No. They could not seek out for purchasers in the south
country as the curers can do, and they were obliged to sell their
fish to the Shetland merchants and at the price which was current
here.
8472. Don't you think the men would be better off if they could
get payment for their fish earlier in the season, and could go and
deal at any store they liked for their goods?-I don't know that
that would be any advantage to them, because they know by
experience that their earnings are very small, and they could not
afford to take them in that way. They must try to save their
earnings for their rents, and for the maintenance of their families.
8473. But if they got their money in their hand, instead of running
an account, would they not make a better use of it?-I don't know.
Some of them might be inclined to do so and some not.
8474. Might they not buy their goods cheaper if they had the
money to pay for them?-Some of them might, but some of them
might spend their money very carelessly.
8475. Did you hear what Gilbert Scollay said about getting meal
cheaper in the south than it can be got here?-We all know that
that is the case.
8476. Have any of you tried to get it in that way?-No.
8477. Why?-From want of knowledge. We don't know where to
go in order to find the cheapest market for meal.
8478. But Gilbert Scollay found out where to go and he would
have told you?-Gilbert Scollay might have done that, but we
never like to deal in the kind of meal which he bought.
8479. You could have got any sort of meal if you had asked it?-
Yes, he would have got any sort.
8480. And so would you if you had gone to the right quarter.
Don't you think if a lot of you now were to agree to buy meal from
a man in the south, and were getting the price of your fish in cash,
so that you could pay for the meal in cash, you would be able to
make a better thing of it?-There is no mistake about that.
8481. What is to hinder a boat's crew or two from agreeing to
bring their own meal from the south?-The fish-curer must
supply them with money before they could do that.
8482. Will not the curer advance money to the men if they want
it?-It would just be at his own option.
8483. Do you think the fish-curer would not give you the money
before the end of the season?-I don't know, I never asked it, and
what a man has not asked he cannot speak to at all.
8484. Do you think he would be likely to do it?-The merchants
might do it to some, and to some they would not. They could not
be expected to do it to a man who was indebted to them; but if a
man was clear with them, they might have no objections to
advance the money.
8485. I suppose it would not be easy to find a boat's crew where
some of the men were not in debt?-I think there are a good few
boats' crews of that kind.
8486. Could not a boat's crew, where none of the men were in
debt, get their money in that way?-Certainly they could if they
wished it.
8487. And they could import their meal from the south if they
found it any cheaper?-Perhaps they could.
8488. Do any of your people knit or weave?-They do.
8489. Are they paid for their work in the way which Mrs.
Williamson and Mrs. Johnston have described?-Yes.
8490. They are paid mostly in goods?-They can take either goods
or money, because they are not in debt to any man.
8491. Do you keep an account with any merchant?-No; I keep
the family accounts.
[Page 206]
8492. Do you keep them all in one?-Yes.
8493. Is that a common way at Muckle Roe?-I think it is, and I
think it is the best way.
8494. Have you sometimes taken their webs to sell to the
merchants?-Yes, I have sometimes done so.
8495. Have you ever got money for a web?-Yes, if I wanted it.
8496. But did you ever get it?-I have. I have got £4 at a time,
when the web was worth it.
8497. Was that long ago?-It was this very year.
8498. Did you get it all in money?-Yes.
8499. Was that at Voe?-No, it was at Brae from Mr. Inkster.
8500. Did you ever get as much money before for any web?-No,
I don't think so.
8501. Were you paid mostly in goods before?-No, not altogether
in goods. If I did not require the goods, I could have it in money,
because if I was not in debt to them they were obliged to pay me
the money.
8502. Were they always obliged to pay money for webs?-Yes, to
men who were clear with them, and who would not take their wool
from them.
8503. But a man who was not clear would not get all money?-
No, he could not expect it.
8504. The price of his cloth would be put to his account?-Yes.
8505. And he might get a little money if he wanted it?-Yes. I
never knew a merchant to refuse a man a little money if he was in
need of it.
8506. But the man had to tell the merchant that he was in need of
it?-Yes, if he was in need, he had to explain that to him.
8507. If a man was in debt to a merchant, and wanted to get money
for his web, could he not take it to another merchant?-Yes; but it
would not be very fair to do so. A man who is in debt to another
ought always to pay his debt when he can.
8508. But he might pay it at another time and he might be wanting
the money for his own immediate needs?-Such cases as that
might occur, but not very often.
8509. You think the people round about you don't often do that?-
I don't think they do.
Brae, January 13, 1872, PETER BLANCH, examined.
8510. Are you a fisherman and farmer near Brae?-Yes, about a
mile or a mile and a half north from this.
8511. Have you a good bit of land?-Yes, just about as big as most
of the people have hereabouts-a small allotment.
8512. Have you got a brother in Ollaberry?-I have a brother-in-
law there, and a cousin, William Blanch.
8513. Have you been present to-day?-Not all the time. I have
been here for about an hour.
8514. Have you heard the description which has been given of
how the fishermen are settled with for their accounts?-Yes. I
was present at the first meeting which was held at Brae.
8515. Do you settle in the same way as you have heard
described?-Yes, much in the same way; but I am a Faroe
fisherman, and I have been so for the last twelve years.
8516. Are you a skipper?-Yes.
8517. Who do you ship with?-I have been employed by Mr.
Adie's firm for the last five years. Before that I went out from
Lerwick. I went for Mr. Sutherland, and then for Mr. George Reid
Tait.
8518. You settle every year in the winter?-Yes, or sometimes
twice in one year, but not often.
8519. You get supplies, as a rule, from the merchant in whose
smack you go to the fishing?-Yes, we get that if we require them.
8520. But, as a rule, do you get your supplies from that
merchant?-As a rule we do, but there are exceptions. For my
own part, I have never been under the necessity of taking out
supplies unless I chose; but, generally speaking, I have taken
them out, especially stores required for our own use in the vessel.
8521. And when anything is required for the man's family at home
during the season, is it generally got from the same merchant?-It
may be. In most cases,, I think, that would be the case; but, for
my own part, was not bound to do that, because at the time of
settlement I had always something to take, and I could deal where
I chose.
8522. You say you were not bound to do it: is it common for men
to feel that they are bound to do that?-Of course. If I was
employed by a curer or a merchant, and had been in the habit of
dealing with another before I was employed by him, I would
consider it something like a duty, in a moral point of view, to put
my money into his shop, and I have done so, although I have never
been obligated to do it.
8523. Are some of the men obligated to do that?-I think they are
obligated, for this reason, that they could scarcely help themselves.
Perhaps they had not the money to purchase their goods elsewhere,
and they were bound for that reason from a selfish motive.
8524. You think they could not get credit elsewhere?-Yes. Some
of them I know could not get it elsewhere. Perhaps some of them
could.
8525. But the merchant who employs men at the Faroe fishing
is generally ready to give credit to a man who is in these
circumstances, and who does not have money?-Of course he
does. He understands he has that to do. They make advances,
perhaps before, but as soon as the men engage to go to the fishing.
It may be about this time, or it may be a month previous to this,
when they make the engagement to go.
8526. And they made an advance then either in cash or in
out-takes?-I don't think they will likely give much cash. They
may give 8s. or 10s. in cash, but unless they know the man is to be
depended upon I don't think they will give much more. They may
give man until he has made some earning by his fishing; but unless
it is a case where they know it can be paid back again by the man
otherwise, they will not give it. He may pay it out of his stock for
instance, he may have some other means. For my own part, of
course, I was always so far able to pay my account, and I never had
need to ask for money. I can only speak to that from personal
experience; but I have known men who sailed with me for eight or
nine years, and I know they have got a little money, perhaps 10s.
or £1, at a time when they required it.
8527. Although they were bound?-I did not know about their
being bound. I would not say much about that. I daresay some of
them would be bound, and some of them were not.
8528. Have you ever known men being bound when, they engaged
to a merchant?-No. I may have heard about it, but I could not
show it by proof.
8529. Have you heard of men who are obligated, as you said, to
engage with it particular merchant for the fishing because they
were in his debt?-No; I could not say definitely as to that.
8530. Have you had an idea or it notion that a man might have
engaged for that reason?-Yes; I have had that idea, and I have
been told so by men themselves, but these men are not here, and I
could not say that it was actually the case. For my own part, I have
never been in these circumstances.
8531. Have you ever considered whether you would be better
under any other arrangement than making settlement at the end
of the year for the Faroe fishing?-I have considered that matter,
and I have often thought that we might have been better than we
are under the present state of matters. That may have been partly
our own blame, in consequence of the want of information
among the fishermen; but I have often thought, and I think so
still, that we don't have that fair play which we ought to have. I
think the present system is almost, if not altogether, a one-sided
arrangement for the merchant. That is my opinion with regard to
the Faroe fishing, and the ling fishers say the [Page 207] same.
We don't know what we are to get until the end of the season. We
go and toil away and catch fish if we can, but we don't know what
we are to get for them until the time of settlement. There is an
arrangement made between the fish-curers or merchants, and by
that time they have made up their minds, and have fixed upon
certain price, while we under our agreement have just to take
what they please to give us. Our understanding is that the crew get
one-half of the nett, and the fish-merchant or curer gets the other
half for his vessel. Of course, the salt and the expenses of curing
deducted, and the master's and mate's extra, and the score money.
8532. There are some deductions before you come to the nett?-
Yes; we don't get one half of the gross; we only get one-half of the
nett. There is allowance for salt and curing, which is generally £2,
10s., and I think it could be done cheaper, but that may be our own
blame. Then there is the master's extra and the mate's extra,
which is a fee of so much per ton to each, according as the
agreement is made.
8533. What other deduction is there?-There is score-money, and
there may be the expense of bringing the fish to market.
8534. Is that a deduction, or does it not come off the merchant's
half of the nett?-I don't know exactly how that is done. We
never see the account sales of the fish, although we ought to see
them, but that may be our own blame too.
8535. You don't know whether the merchant gets commission of
5 per cent?-I have been told so by one merchant that I was
employed by, Mr. Grierson. I never was told that by any other
merchant for whom I was employed, but Mr. Grierson told me that
was actually so in his case.
8536. You are a skipper, and you actually don't know how the
deductions are made which come off before the nett produce is
halved?-Of course I have asked about these things, and I have
been told that there were no other deductions taken off beyond
what have mentioned.
8537. Do you have nothing to do with the making of these
deductions yourself?-No.
8538. You have nothing to do with the weighing of the fish, nor
with the selling of them?-No; nor with making a market for
them.
8539. But you think you might be more fairly dealt with than
you are?-I think we might. I don't know whether that is
altogether the merchant's blame, but think we could have a fairer
understanding, for two reasons: In the first place, we ought to have
an understanding when we start or engage that we are to have a
certain fixed price for our fish, the same as the Englishmen have.
They know what they are to get before their fish are caught.
8540. Where do these Englishmen fish?-They are in smacks that
come from London and Grimsby and Hull and Berwick, and they
fish for curers in Shetland, and land their fish here.
8541. Have these men all an agreement for a fixed price?-So
far as I understand, they have. At least I have been told so by
themselves.
8542. These men have a fixed agreement with the curers here to
whom they sell?-Yes. Of course, their men are not paid in the
same way as we are. The men on board these vessels, except the
masters, are paid by weekly wages.
8543. And the master makes a bargain with the merchant here
about the fish?-I rather think it is the owner who makes the
bargain.
8544. Do you know the nature of the bargain they make?-I
cannot say that I know definitely. I know the merchant here agrees
to pay them a fixed price when the fish are landed in a dry state.
They are salted on board the vessels, and they get £10, £11, or
£12 a ton for salted fish when landed. They know they are to get
that before the fish are caught, and they cannot expect anything
more. Now; I say we ought to have something like that, and then
we would know what we were actually working for. It might be
that in that way we would get less than we do present, but we
would have a fair understanding. If we lost in one year, we might
gain in another.
8545. Do you think the men in Shetland, generally speaking,
would be inclined to consent to a bargain of that sort? Would they
not grumble very much if the price rose considerably before the
end of the season?-It would only be parties who were dull of
apprehension that would be likely to grumble. It would not be the
intelligent men. For my part, and so far as my experience goes, I
don't think a man of intelligence and experience would have a
right to grumble in that case and I don't think he would do so.
There are a great many I have spoken to, and reasoned the matter
with, who, I don't think, would grumble.
8546. Do you think the fishermen, under such a system, would
have the same advantage at the beginning of the season in making
a bargain as the masters would have? Would the masters not be
likely to know better what the market price was likely to be
towards the end of the season, and thus be able to make a
calculation as to the price more in their own favour?-The
merchants ought, from their position, to have more information
as to the probable state of the market, and, a rule, they do have
more information; but I believe there are not a few masters of
Faroe fishing vessels who could make as good a market, or nearly
as good a market, as the curers could.
8547. You think they have all the information necessary to guide
them in making a good bargain in the beginning of the season, or
just as much as the curers have?-Yes. A curer would just be as
likely to make a mistake in his arrangements as I would be. The
market is so fluctuating that it is possible a curer may go and make
a loss. He might possibly make an arrangement with another
merchant to sell his fish at a certain fixed price, and there is a
possibility of the fish rising after that, and of course I would stand
the same chance.
8548. Do you say that in the English vessels the fish is salted
before it is put on shore?-Yes.
8549. Is that the case in your smacks also?-Yes; we are always
bound to do that. We could not keep the fish otherwise. When
fishing on the coast of Faroe or Iceland, or elsewhere, we cannot
help ourselves; we must salt them in order to save them.
8550. Is the salt put on board the vessel, and supplied by the
fish-curer at starting?-Yes.
8551. You said you thought 50s. a ton was rather too high a charge
for salting and curing: is that your opinion?-I am inclined to
think so. I know the price of salt as well as the curers do. I have
been in the habit of buying salt at Liverpool more than two or three
times, and I know what I have paid for it, buying it with ready
money. The last cargo of salt which I brought here cost 7s. per
ton, when ready to leave Liverpool, and the freight here would be
10s. Then there would be 1s. per ton for landing, at least. Then
there would be 2s. for wastage and they might take off 1s. or 2s.
more for cellar rent. That would be 22s.
8552. Would that be the total cost of the salt delivered in
Shetland?-It might vary; but that is what I paid for it the last
time I bought a cargo.
8553. Do you think 22s. is a liberal calculation for it?-I think so.
Then the people have to be paid for curing, that is, washing and
drying the fish, and I think they generally pay at least 12s. per ton,
or in some cases more, for that. I have never cured fish myself,
but I have been told by curers that that is about the expense.
8554. That would be 12s. for the workpeople employed at the
curing; but you would also require some allowance for implements
and sheds and booths?-No doubt an allowance would require to
be made for that too. In some cases a man may be curing fish
where he has to provide a booth for himself, and he has to get
covering from the fish-curer or merchant. That, however, would
only be a trifle.,
8555. Would 3s. a ton be too much for that?-As rule, I think it
would not.
8556. Would it be too little?-I think it would not be too little; I
think it would fully meet it.
[Page 208]
8557. Would there be any other expense for the curing of the
fish?-Not so far as the curing is concerned.
8558. You say the charge for curing is 50s.?-Yes. I have paid my
share of it at that rate, and I have sometimes paid for it at the rate
of 52s. 6d., but it has been less than 50s. in my experience. At one
time it was 45s., but of late years it has never been less than 50s.
8559. The calculation which you have made comes so that you
think the fish-curer makes a profit of 13s. per ton upon the curing:
is that your opinion?-My opinion is just exactly as I have stated
it. It is possible I may be wrong in some of the items, because in
some cases the merchant may have to give the curer more. It may
be a late season, or a wet season, and in order to get the fish dried
and ready for market it is possible they might encourage the curer,
by giving him 1s. or 2s. more.
8560. The expense might be more than 37s. a ton in some
cases?-It might be.
8561. But you think that 37s. a ton is a fair enough calculation,
so far as you can make it, for the usual expenses of salting and
curing?-I think so.
8562. Do you think fishermen could cure for themselves upon a
small scale?-It might not be easy to get a crew together which
could do that, but I think it could be done. I do not see why the
master of a Faroe fishing vessel could not get a man to cure his
fish as well as another man. There are often beaches that he could
get the use of for the time being, and I think it is quite possible
they could get their fish cured, but there may be some difficulty
about it. It might be that every person would not be able to do it.
8563. You do not know whether that has been tried?-I do not.
For my own part, I never attempted it.
8564. Do you think the system of running accounts among the
Faroe fishermen you have met with has led them to incur too large
amounts of debt?-I am inclined to think so.
8565. Is that one of your reasons for wishing to have a price fixed
at the beginning of the year?-That would be one of the special
reasons, but it is not the whole reason. I have another reason for
that, which is, that as the system exists now, if the merchant makes
a good bargain or a good market for his fish, and the man he sells
them to does not fail before the price is payable, the merchant
never loses, because he never pays the price to us before then
which he can afford to pay. He is always secure; but if he had a
fixed price to pay for the fish; he might lose as quick as I would.
That is my main reason for objecting to this system. I would like
to have the thing altered so that there might be something like fair
play, and that if I lose, I lose, and that if I gain, I gain. I am not
saying that the merchant is not paying me a fair price now. He
may be paying me all he can afford to pay, but I don't know that.
8566. But by the system you propose, the price might be lower
than is sufficient for your labour?-I would have to take my
chance of that. In my experience I have had to contend with three
all but total failures at the fishing, and of course our labour and
time went for almost nothing. But that was not the owner's blame;
we could not help it, and no more could he.
8567. Is there any other plan for the payment of fish that has
occurred to you? How would it do, for instance, if a certain part
of the price per cwt. were arranged to be paid on delivery of the
green fish, and that the rest, whatever it might be, should be paid
at settlement according to the current price?-I could scarcely
speak with regard to green fish, because my experience has been in
salted fish, and I would only like to speak about that with which I
have been myself more immediately connected. But speaking with
regard to salted fish only, what you have suggested would be a far
better way, because I would then have a chance of seeing my fish
weighed out. I don't think the merchant has cheated me out of a
ton or half a ton of fish, but I have not had the chance of seeing my
fish weighed when I was there. Each vessel's catch is kept and
cured separately; but when we come to deliver the fish, if we had
a chance of seeing it weighed then, and got a certain figure for it,
that would be exactly the way in which these Englishmen deal.
They see their fish weighed, and they know what they are getting
for each ton or each cwt. of it, and they have nothing more to
expect. But we don't do that; we get the dried fish price.
8568. Do you know how much green fish makes a cwt. of dry?-I
know that about 21/4 cwt. is the general rate allowed in the ling
fishing for green fish, but if it is good fish it will not require so
much as that I have helped to cure myself, but it may be as much
as that with bad fish. As to salted fish, I could not say definitely
what is the proportion.
8569. There is no such calculation required in the Faroe fishing?-
No; it does not come so immediately under my notice. I never saw
my fish weighed dry; I have seen them occasionally weighed wet,
but not often.
8570. Are they occasionally weighed wet in the Faroe fishing?-
Sometimes, not often. It is done perhaps on shore or on board, as
it happens. Suppose we land them at a different station from what
we intended, they are counted out and weighed when sold, and
then the owner or fish-curer will know what they can turn out
when dry. That is the reason why they are weighed.
8571. Then there must be a calculation made in that case?-There
is, but I do not know exactly what it is.
8572. To go back to your calculation about the expense of curing
fish, can you tell me how much salt is required to cure a ton of
fish?-We generally reckon upon a ton of salt to a ton of dry fish.
If the salt is well cared for it will do a little more but we generally
reckon upon that as an average.
8573. Is the salt which the fish get all put on them before they
are put on shore?-Yes; it is all put on. There is none put on
afterwards, except it may be in the case of a few fish which are
likely to give way, or when we get fish and have not enough salt,
but that is a case of emergency and an exception-not the rule. As
a rule, we cure our fish and put all the salt on them they require.
8574. Have you any knowledge of the system of payment in the
ling fishing?-Only from what I have heard about it. I have been
at it only once when I was a lad; and I cannot say much about it
from experience.
8575. Do you think your neighbours are generally quite at liberty
to deal with any merchant they please in the ling fishing?-I
believe they are at perfect liberty so far as any man is concerned
who could stand in a position like me, and be able to pay his way
at any time; but I think a man who could not pay his way, and who
was always in debt, would not be at liberty to go where he chose. I
am not sure that even he would not be at liberty to use his own
judgment, and deal where he liked; but I don't know that he would
be looked well upon if he went to another. That is to say, if he
was in debt £10 or £20 to a merchant, I don't think the merchant
would look well upon it if the man went to another merchant to
whom he owed nothing, and fished for him. At least that is what
they have told me, and what I have known; but, of course, a man
who can pay his way, and who is not bound to fish for a certain
individual, can do as he likes. There are fishermen in other parts
of the country who are bound to fish for their landowner or their
factor, but that does not exist here.
8576. Is there anything else you wish to state?-I don't think
there is anything about any matter with which I am immediately
connected. We used to make a little Shetland cloth, but I could
only corroborate the evidence that has been already given about
that. I have never been under the necessity of selling it to a
particular party, and I have got the money for it when I asked it. I
don't know that the same price is always given in money as when
it is taken in goods; but if I needed money, and asked for it, I
always got it.
[Page 209]
8577. Then you have no objection to the practice which exists with
regard to the hosiery trade?-No; I would not say anything about
that.
8578. Have you any objection to what is done in the cloth trade?-
It is the cloth trade I mean. Of course the knitting is a thing that I
am not immediately connected with; there is not much done in that
way with me. I know, however, that in some cases, although
perhaps not in all, where women have been knitting hosiery, and
they have got a certain price for an article, yet by buying tea or
groceries, which are reckoned as money articles, they would have
to pay more for them. They would have to pay 2d. or 11/2d. more
upon a 1/4 lb. of tea, because it was being paid for by hosiery; but I
think I would have preferred a different way of dealing with them.
I think, if I had been in a position like that, I would have given
them less for their hosiery, and sold the articles to them at a fixed
price. It would just have come to the very same thing with the
merchants.
8579. You think that would have been a wiser course for the
merchants to take?-Yes. I remember on one occasion when I
brought two or three articles of hosiery to a merchant, I got a
certain sum put upon them; but when I got a little tea from him, he
said he had to make the tea 2d. more per quarter, because it was
paid for in hosiery. I said to him I would not deal in that way if I
were him, but that I would give a little less for the hosiery, and I
would charge a fixed price for my tea, or whatever other articles I
was selling; but he said, 'We must all do that, because if I were to
say that I would not give a woman so much for her hosiery, she
would go to another merchant with it, and they would give her a
higher price, and lay it on their goods;' which I have no doubt they
do.
8580. Therefore you did not convince the hosiery merchant?-I
convinced him so far, that I got my price. I would not pay the
price he charged, and would have taken my article of hosiery back
rather than pay it.
8581. Did that take place some years ago?-Yes; it is not less than
six years ago.
Brae, January 13, 1872, THOMAS ROBERTSON, examined.
8582. Have you been a fisherman here all your life?-Not all my
life; but I have been for a number of years.
8583. You hold a bit of ground at Weathersta?-Yes.
8584. Who do you fish for?-For Mr Adie, Voe.
8585. Do you settle with him every year?-Yes.
8586. Do you generally get some of your balance in cash?-Yes.
If I have a balance to get I get it, but I always got money when I
asked it, whether I had it to get or not.
8587. Do you get money advanced to you in the course of the
year?-Yes; whenever I ask it.
8588. Did you get that ten years ago if you asked for it?-I did.
8589. Was that the practice then?-Yes; but I never asked for
money unless I required it.
8590. You wanted goods oftener?-Yes.
8591. How far is it from Voe to your place?-About three miles.
8592. Is Mr. Adie's the nearest shop to you?-No. Brae is nearer
than Voe.
8593. But you dealt at Voe, because you were fishing for Mr.
Adie?-I dealt some at Brae too; but mostly at Voe.
8594. Was that because you had an account there?-Yes.
8595. And it was more convenient for you sometimes to deal upon
credit?-Yes.
8596. I suppose you would get a larger advance in goods at that
shop than you would have got if you were to ask money?-I don't
know; I only asked for goods when I was needing them.
8597. But if you had asked money with which to go and buy your
goods elsewhere, would you have got it?-I cannot say, for I never
asked it.
8598. Have you heard the evidence of Robertson and Wood, and
the other fishermen who have been examined to-day?-Yes.
8599. Have you anything different to say from what they said
about the system of dealing among the fishermen here?-No.
8600. Have you known fishermen changing from one employment
to another?-I have.
8601. Have you done that yourself?-No.
8602. You have always fished for Mr. Adie?-Yes.
8603. What is the general reason for the men shifting?-I don't
know. I suppose it is because they think they will be better.
8604. How are they better, when the same price is always paid at
the end of the year by all the curers?-I cannot see where they can
be better by shifting from one man to another; I never felt that I
would be any better to do so.
8605. I understand all the merchants hereabout pay the same
current price for fish?-Yes. Mr. Adie proposed a stated
agreement to me for fishing herring. The herrings in Shetland
then were 7s. a cran, and he agreed that he would give us 8s. a
cran; but we have only got 8s. a cran for two years. The price
varies with the agreement in each year; sometimes we get 13s. a
cran, sometimes 10s., and sometimes 12s.-just up and down.
8606. Do you generally go to the herring fishing every year?-Yes.
8607. At what season of the year do you go?-August and
September; after we are done with the ling fishing.
8608. And the bargain for the herring fishing is that you are to get
so much a cran?-Yes; that was the agreement we had with Mr.
Adie when we took our nets.
8609. Do you hire nets from him for that fishing?-No, we buy
them, and they are put into our accounts.
8610. Have you paid off the price of these nets now?-Yes.
8611. How long did it take you to pay them?-I could not say
exactly, but I think it took us between 8 and 9 years to pay for
them all, because we had lean fishings.
8612. You mean that the herring fishing was poor?-Yes.
8613. Did you get them paid off at last?-Yes.
8614. Is the price for the herrings paid down whenever you deliver
them?-No.
8615. Do you keep an account for the herring fishing separate
from the account for the ling fishing?-Yes.
8616. Do you get goods to the other side of that account too?-No;
they are all in the same account.
8617. Your goods are kept in an account at Voe?-Yes.
8618. And the price of the herrings is entered to your credit when
you settle?-Yes.
8619. Do you keep a pass-book?-Yes.
8620. Have you got it now?-No; I don't have it, because we think
there is no use keeping it after the end of the season. Once we find
the pass-book to be correct, we think it is of no farther use, and
when I brought it home I suppose the bairns tore it up.
8621. When you square up your account at the end of the year, do
you go and look at all the items in Mr. Adie's book?-Yes.
8622. Are they read over to you?-Yes; I compare them with the
items in my book, and I see that they are all correct.
8623. Is it mostly goods or cash that you get in the course of the
year?-It is goods for the most part but I get a good part of cash
too.
[Page 210]
Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN RATTER, examined.
8624. You are a fisherman at Weathersta?-Yes.
8625. Do you fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes.
8626. Have you heard what Thomas Robertson has said?-Yes.
8627. Does it all apply to your case as well as his?-Exactly.
8628. How long have you fished for Mr. Adie?-Six years.
8629. Where did you fish before?-I did not fish for any one
before, except going for a fee to the ling fishing.
8630. Do you go to the herring fishing also?-Yes.
8631. And you are paid for it in the same way as Robertson?-
Yes.
8632. You get a fixed price for the herring?-Yes.
8633. Have you anything to add to what he has said?-No.
Brae, January 13, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, recalled.
8634. Is there anything further you wish to say?-I forgot that I
had my pass-book with Mr. Adie for this year with me. It shows
the goods I am getting now. [Produces book.]
8635. I thought you were getting your goods at cash price now?-
Yes; I had a promise of them at cash price.
8636. I see there is tea, 5d.?-That is for 2 oz. of tea.
8637. Then you are not getting them for cash price yet?-I have no
doubt that when I settle with Mr. Adie he will square that up. I
have his promise for it, and I have no doubt that he will do it. I
wish further to say, that this truck system or compulsory barter is
a great cause of pauperism, as it makes the poor careless and the
rich fearless; because, should the head of the family die, the
creditor will probably take the effects left, and consequently leave
the widow and fatherless children, if any, on the parish. Another
thing is, that when the merchants have it in their power to price
both their goods and mine, they clearly see that I must sell, and off
it must go at whatever they say is the value, and I must take their
goods at the value they are pleased to put upon them, and I-if I
am in debt-dare not grumble.
8638. What goods have you had to sell upon which they have put
their own price?-For one thing, I have been a carrier of hosiery to
different places.
8639. Who have you carried hosiery for?-Perhaps for my wife or
others, and the value of the stockings was made to be 10d., or 8d.,
or 7d. If I took tea, and the value of the stockings was 10d., I
could only get 9d. worth. If I took cotton goods I would get the
full value, but not if I took tea. Then, if under this system a man
gets into debt, it is more in appearance than in reality; and should
that man ask money from the apparent creditor, the old account
will be shaken at him as a scarecrow, and he is generally told to
pay his credit and transfer his custom, and that consequently nails
him to the old plan. As to the difference in the price of meal, what
deceived me in that line was, that I and others were often told that
they only charged 2s. per sack as a commission, which would have
been £10 per 100 sacks; but at last, when I wrote to some of the
meal dealers in the south, I found it was more like £50 per 100
sacks-that is 10s. per sack instead of 2s.
Brae, January 13, 1872, WILLIAM ADIE, examined.
8640. You are a son of Mr. T.M. Adie, who has been already
examined?-I am. I am a partner of the business carried on at
Voe, although it is carried on in my father's name. I have been
a partner for seven or eight years.
8641. Are you aware of any arrangement existing between Messrs.
Adie, Anderson, and Inkster, to this effect, that when a fisherman
who is in debt to one of these curers goes to another, the new
employer undertakes the debt incurred to the former employer?-
There was an arrangement of that sort entered into.
8642. Has it been acted upon to a certain extent?-Yes; I think it
has been pretty well carried out.
8643. Was it reduced to writing?-Yes; I think the original
document is in our possession. I will send it to you.* A principal
object or inducement for having that document drawn up was, that
a great many of our fishermen were in the habit of settling at the
end of the season, and getting advances for rent, or of goods, on
the understanding that they were to fish, or go in a boat of ours to
the fishing, in the following season; and then they left and went to
Mr. Anderson, and took similar advances from him.
8644. Did you find that a man who got into arrears in your books,
and to whom you were obliged to refuse supplies on account of his
debt being too large, was apt to go to another merchant and engage
with him for the following season?-In some cases perhaps they
did so, but not as a rule.
8645. But did you not find that when a man's debt got so large that
you had to refuse him supplies, and he was not likely to pay it, he
went away to another merchant instead of continuing to fish for
you?-Sometimes; but most of the men, when they are in debt in
that way, save as much as possible, and keep under expenses, in
order to assist in getting the debt cleared off.
8646. You see when a man is trying to keep down expenses, and
you help him as far as possible?-Yes.
8647. Do you remember of one William Inkster leaving you in that
way a good many years ago?-Yes.
8648. And Mr. Anderson paid the whole of his debt to you under
that agreement?-Yes; Mr. Anderson paid his debt.
8649. Have other cases occurred of a similar kind?-Yes; I think
we have paid Mr. Anderson some accounts for some of his men,
and he has paid us.
8650. Is it the full debt that is paid in these cases, or only a
proportion of it, or do you make a compromise?-Sometimes
we make a compromise.
8651. Was there any understanding when you took the lease of
your premises at Voe, that no shop should be permitted on the
Busta estate near you?-I cannot speak positively on that matter.
I don't know the terms of the lease exactly. I think there was a
stipulation in the last lease, with regard to the pasture ground, that
no business should be carried on upon it.
8652. Do you mean no fish-curing business?-No shop. There
was a talk at one time of having a [Page 211] public-house put up
there; and I think it was with reference to that that the stipulation
was put in. That was in the lease of the park or enclosed property.
8653. Has your firm a grocer's licence?-Yes.
8654. I understand there is no public-house in the
neighbourhood?-No; we have a spirit licence.
8655. Have you a public-house licence as well?-Yes.
8656. That business is carried on, of course, in different premises
from your other business?-No; they are carried on in the same
premises.
8657. Is there not a different door to the place where you sell the
spirits?-No; we are quite at liberty to sell spirits there, but not to
consume them on the premises.
8658. Then you have no licence at all to consume on the
premises?-No.
8659. And the licence you have is not a public house licence?-
No.
8660. You have been present to-day and heard the evidence: is
there any observation you wish to make upon it?-I don't know
that there is. I think most of the things which have been referred
to were explained by my father. There is something, however,
with reference to the curing of the fish which I may refer to. That
matter has scarcely been gone into as it should have been. For
instance, it has been stated that a ton of salt will cure a ton of fish
in one of the Faroe vessels, but it never does so. At one time, I
believe, it would have cured a ton of fish, but there is a fearful
extravagance and waste of salt going on in these vessels now.
There are tons of salt which are wasted among ballast, and in other
ways, so that we never turn out a ton of dry fish for a ton of salt.
8661. You heard the calculation made by Blanch on that
subject?-Yes. Salt costs us a great deal more than he mentioned;
we don't have salt in our cellars under 27s. or 27s. 6d., and there is
the cost of shipping again into the vessels and wastage.
8662. He allowed 2s. a ton for waste?-Yes, in landing, but not in
shipping; 2s. a ton will not cover the waste both in landing and
shipping; and then the cost of labour is very much higher than it
used to be.
8663. Is 12s. a ton an insufficient allowance for labour?-It is.
8664. Have you made a calculation of that at any time for the
purposes of your business?-We can scarcely get an accurate
calculation made, but I am certain it is more than he stated.
There are different parcels of fish landed from different vessels
to be cured, and we cannot keep an accurate account of the time
expended on each parcel.
8665. But take a single ton of fish: is 12s. more than the ordinary
cost of curing it?-No; it is considerably less than the cost. I am
perfectly certain of that.
8666. Is 50s. per ton, the ordinary deduction charged off fishermen
for the Faroe fishing, very much above the actual cost?-I don't
think it is 6d. over the actual cost.
8667. Does that include anything for superintendence?-Of
course, it includes the allowance for our utensils, and the cost of
beaches and superintendence. Then Blanch said there was a
deduction of 5 per cent, but it is not 5 per cent. that is deducted.
There is generally £1 per ton deducted for expenses in realizing
the fish and storage, and so on.
8668. Is that £1 per ton on the cured fish?-Yes; that is known all
over the country to be the ordinary rate of charge.
8669. That comes to nearly 5 per cent.?-Yes; sometimes it is a
little more than 5 per cent, and sometimes it is not so much.
8670. Are these all the deductions that are made before the
division of the proceeds of the cured fish?-Yes; there is the
curing, and the master and the mate's extra, and the score-money.
8671. What is score-money?-The men are paid so much for each
score of fish they individually draw.
8672. That is to say, each man counts the fish which he gets with
his own lines?-Yes, and he gets 6d. a score for them.
8673. That is a sort of premium upon industry?-Yes; that is
deducted from the gross, and paid to the individual fisherman.
8674. Is there any other deduction in favour of either the merchant
or the men?-I am not aware of any. There are some payments for
bait which are deducted too. That is charged against the vessel's
fishing, and deducted from the gross.
8675. Is there any expense for lines, or do the men furnish their
own lines?-The men furnish their lines in the Faroe fishing.
8676. Is the price of these lines charged against the fishing, or
against the men individually?-Against the men individually.
Each man gets his own lines, and they are charged in his
individual account. There is a stock of lines generally kept by
the master on board the vessel, and they are supplied by him to
the men on board.
8677. These stores on board the vessel go to the individual account
of the men?-Yes, stores of all kinds. We supply them with 8 lbs.
of bread per man per week, and they find their own small stores.
8678. These they generally purchase in your shop?-Yes.
8679. And they are put to their account?-Yes.
* The agreement referred to was afterwards sent in, and was in the
following terms:-'We, Gideon Anderson, of Ollaberry; John
Anderson, Hillswick; James Inkster, Brae; and Thomas M. Adie,
Voe; considering the very disastrous consequences likely to ensue
to ourselves, and ultimately to our fishermen, from the reckless
system of giving them advances which has been for some time
practised, and knowing that such system is farther followed from
the fact that if any of us refused their demands, however absurd,
they turned to another, who gave them what they wanted; we have
resolved to do away with such in future, so that each of us may be
able to exercise his own judgment as to the propriety of what
advances he may make to his fishermen;' and the parties agreed
and bound themselves, so long as they continued as fishcurers in
the same localities, 'not to tamper with or engage each other's
fishermen, or allow our boat-skippers or men to do so, or to make
advances of rents to them on their cattle, sheep, or ponies, or under
any circumstances whatever, unless they produce a certificate from
any of us whom they last fished for, to the effect that he is clear of
debt and all other obligations existing therefrom, or in connection
with the fishing,' under a penalty of £5, to be paid to the poor of
the parish.
In a letter with reference to this agreement Mr. T. M. Adie says:-
'The only way in which it has ever had to be acted on is, that
occasionally some man would like to be in a boat more convenient
for him, when any of us whom he had fished for gave him a note
stating that he was under no obligation, or if he was due a balance,
the curer he went to paid it for him. On some occasions we had
found that a worthless fellow would get what he actually needed
advanced to him, and then, if any fancied want was not supplied,
he would leave the boat, and the rest of the crew lost their fishing
for want of a man in his stead, and it tended to keep down
advances in goods so that men had, more money to get.'
Brae, January 13, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined.
8680. Where do you live?-In North Delting.
8681. Are you a fisherman?-I am.
8682. Who do you fish for?-Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co.
8683. How far do you live from Mossbank?-About a mile.
8684. How long have you fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Five
years.
8685. Do you keep an account at the Mossbank shop?-Yes.
8686. Do you make a settlement at the end of the year?-Yes.
8687. Do you get any money at settlement?-Yes, I get my rent.
8688. Who do you pay your rent to?-Mr. John Robertson. I live
on the Lunna estate; Sheriff Bell is the proprietor.
8689. Do you get any more money from Pole, Hoseason, & Co.,
besides your rent?-No more money, as I don't have it to get.
8690. Is that because you are in debt?-Yes.
8691. How far are you behind?-I was behind £3 at the last
settlement, but I have been as much behind as £13.
8692. Are you always behind in your accounts?-Yes.
8693. And you always go to fish for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., in the
hope of paying them off?-Yes.
8694. Are you at liberty to fish for any other merchant?-No.
8695. Why?-Because I am in debt, and I cannot pay my debt,
therefore I am obliged to fish for Mr. Pole.
8696. If you were to go to fish for another merchant and get paid
by him in money, could you not pay off your debt to Pole,
Hoseason, & Co.?-I might, but I don't see what good that would
do. I get the same price for my fish from Mr. Pole as I would get
from any other body.
8697. But don't you think you run up a bigger account when you
are dealing with Pole, Hoseason, & Co., than you would do if you
were getting your cash in hand?-Yes; if I had cash to purchase
my meal, which is the principal thing I require, I would get it
cheaper elsewhere.
8698. What is the price of meal at Mossbank just now?-I cannot
say rightly.
[Page 212]
8699. When did you know last? Have you made your settlement
this year?-Yes.
8700. Don't you know what you were charged for meal then?-
No.
8701. Do you ask the price of your meal as you buy it?-
Sometimes; but we must take it, whatever it is, because we
have no money to purchase it with elsewhere.
8702. Whose fault is that?-I don't know.
8703. Is it the merchant's fault?-I cannot say that is.
8704. Do you think Messrs. Pole Hoseason, & Co. charge too
high for their goods?-Yes; if we had money we could get them
cheaper in Lerwick.
8705. But I suppose you would have money if you could save as
much as would keep you for one year?-Yes.
8706. If you could manage that, you would not run into the
merchant's debt at all, but you would have all your cash to get at
settlement?-Yes, if we had as much as would once clear us off.
8707. Can you not manage to do that?-No. I have a small family,
and there is a great quantity of bread to buy, and clothes and
everything. I have nothing but what I can earn by the fishing.
8708. What kind of bread do you buy?-Oatmeal and flour.
8709. Are there many men who are in debt at Mossbank in the
same way as you?-I believe there are a few, but I cannot say.
8710. Do you want to go to fish for any other merchant?-No; I
don't see any good that that would do to me.
8711. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing.
8712. Was there anything else you wanted to say when you came
here?-No.
Brae, January 13, 1872, PETER BLANCH, recalled.
8713. Do you wish to add anything to your former evidence?-
About the cost of fish-curing, I said I was not speaking exactly
from my own experience with regard to the sum paid, but I know
that we have never used more than a ton of salt to a ton of fish on
the average. I wish also to say that I have been told more than
once by parties who have cured fish for Mr. Adie and others, that
they only paid 12s. per ton of fish for the labour of curing. I also
say that I have paid 1s. for landing salt at Lerwick, and nothing
more, and I allow 2s. for wastage. These are things which Mr.
William Adie thought I had no doubt exaggerated, but I am
conscious of the fact that I told nothing but the truth.
8714. Was 12s. per ton a price which was paid under contract?-
Yes.
8715. Who are the parties who told you about that?-Arthur
Harrison was the last one I spoke to. I landed fish to be cured by
him, and he told me so. There was another man who told me the
same thing about five years ago, John Henry, Sandsting, in Walls.
With regard to the price paid for lines, I wish also to say that we
have to furnish our own lines in the Faroe fishing. You were
asking me if I thought there was a possibility of our bettering
ourselves. I thought there was, and that was one of the ways in
which I thought we might do so. I have always thought that the
owner, when he provided a vessel, ought also to provide the
material for the catching of the fish; but instead of that we have to
provide our own lines, and supply other lines if we happen to lose
them, at a very dear price. We 21/2 lines for each man, and we pay
2s. 6d. for what I know the merchants buy at 2s. or 1s. 6d.
8716. Could you not buy your lines at another shop if you
chose?-Yes; we could do that.
8717. Is it part of the arrangement that you are to take these lines
from the owner of the vessel?-I don't know that it is part of the
arrangement, but I don't think they would like it very well if we
went to another; still I don't know that we would be prevented.
8718. Do not the men sometimes hire the lines?-No; never in my
experience in the Faroe fishing.
Brae, January 13, 1872, JOHN NICHOLSON, examined.
8719. Where do you come from?-North Delting.
8720. Who do you fish for?-Messrs Pole, Hoseason, & Co.
8721. Have you heard the evidence of Charles Nicholson?-Yes;
and I would like to say about the price of our fish, that I don't
think it is very right that the men should have to go to the fishing
at the beginning of the season, and don't know what they are to get
until they come to settle.
8722. Do you think you ought to have your price fixed at the
beginning of the season?-Yes.
8723. Have you ever asked for that?-No; we have never asked for
it.
8724. Why?-Because some of the crew are for it and others are
against it, and we could not get the thing rightly settled up amongst
ourselves.
8725. How long have you fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co?-I
have fished there for about fourteen years, both before and after
Mr. Pole came to Mossbank.
8726. Where do you buy your goods?-From Mr. Pole.
8727. Anywhere else?-No.
8728. Do you never go to any other shop in the neighbourhood?-
Not very often.
8729. Why is that?-Because sometimes I don't have ready money
to go with.
8730. If you had ready money would you go anywhere else?-Yes.
8731. Why?-Because I could get my goods cheaper and better.
8732. Are you not satisfied with the quality of the goods at the
Mossbank shop?-No. There are some of the articles there which
are inferior to other people's, and dearer too.
8733. What articles are inferior?-Tea and sugar and meal.
8734. Where could you get them better?-In Lerwick.
8735. That is a long way to go for them?-Yes; but a man must
take some trouble upon himself when he gets them cheaper and
better.
8736. What are you paying at Mossbank store for these things just
now?-Tea is 3s. per lb., sugar is 5d., and meal is 50s.
8737. When did you buy any of these three articles in Lerwick?-
About a month ago.
8738. What did you get them for?-I got tea for 2s. 4d., sugar for
4d., and meal for 32s.
8739. What is the price of meal now?- About 48s. but it was 50s.
in summer, and I bought a sack, or two bolls, at 32s. in Lerwick.
8740. What quantity of meal did you buy at Mossbank last, for
which you paid 48s.?-I got it out in lesser quantities. They don't
like to give very much at one time, and I had to take it in less
quantities than I could get it in Lerwick.
8741. Were you in debt to the shop at the time?-A little; not very
much.
8742. And they would not give it to you because you were in
debt?-No.
8743. Was it by the lispund you bought it at Mossbank?-Yes; I
paid 5s. 8d. per lispund for it, but about the end of July it was 6s.
We generally take it by the quarter boll there.
8744. There are 32 lbs. to the lispund, and 280 lbs. in the sack?-
Yes.
8745. Was the quality of the articles you bought in Lerwick, at the
price you have mentioned, as good as what you got at Mossbank at
the prices which [Page 213] say are charged there?-If there was
any difference, they were better.
8746. But you had to carry them to Mossbank?-I had. The meal
came by the steamer, and I had to pay 8d. for that.
8747. Can you not get cash from Pole, Hoseason, Co. when you
require it, and go and buy your supplies in Lerwick?-Yes; what I
require for the fishing, but not otherwise.
8748. You cannot get what you require for your family?-No.
8749. How did you happen to have money when you went and
bought the meal in Lerwick?-I had it from my small boat fishing
in the winter, and I saved the money.
Brae, January 13, 1872, WILLIAM ADIE (recalled), examined.
8750. Is there anything further in what Blanch has said to which
you wish to refer?-Yes; he said that 12s. was the contract price
for curing our fish: that is false. We paid 13s. for curing fish at
Urrafirth, by Arthur Harrison.
8751. Was that your contract price for the fish cured by him this
year?-He has cured none for us this year. He only cured a few
fish for us in the fall, and he got more than that for them.
8752. Then that was the contract price in 1870?-Yes, for curing
alone. Then we had to pay 3s. a ton for landing and shipping these
fish from Voe to Urrafirth, and 3s. to Voe again; so that the curing
of the fish would cost us about £1.
8753. Why do you pay so heavy freights? Can you not have the
fish landed at Urrafirth in the first place?-No. We send them
there as a convenience for ourselves, but the men are bound to
land them at Voe, and we have to remove them at our own
expense. We have no storage at Urrafirth for them, and they have
to be removed to our own stores again.
8754. Why do you carry your fish to Urrafirth to be cured?-
Because we have not sufficient accommodation for them all at
Voe when we have a large take of fish.
8755. Then you have to send your surplus fish all that way to be
cured?-Yes.
8756. Does it not arise in that way that you have a loss upon these
fish?-Yes, we have a loss upon the fish when we cure them by
contract.
8757. These fish will cost you more than 50s. for curing?-Yes,
they cost us considerably more.
8758. But that will be recouped by your other profit?-Yes; but of
course we must pay that extra out of our own pockets.
8759. But it does not follow that you have a loss upon the total
proceeds of the fish?-No, we would not need to have that.
8760. The profit you calculate upon obtaining from the sale of
your fish is sufficient to cover an occasional loss of that sort, and
is calculated accordingly?- Yes. Of course, the extra charge on
the curing at Urrafirth won't come to nearly the £1 per ton which
we have for storage and commission on the fish.
8761. Is there any one else who wishes to be examined?- [No
answer.] Then I adjourn the inquiry here until further notice.
[<Adjourned.>]
Brae, January 13, 1872, JAMES GARRIOCH, examined.
8762. You are shopkeeper to Messrs. Hay & Co. at their shop in
the island of Fetlar?-I am.
8763. How long have you been there?-Three years past on 1st
December. Before that I was a store-keeper with them in Lerwick.
8764. Was that establishment in Lerwick the one from which both
Faroe fishers and home fishers got their supplies for the season,
and their outfit for the fishing?-Yes; and Messrs. Hay's country
shops were also supplied from that shop for the most part.
8765. I understand the supplies for the country shops are sent
down to you with invoices of the prices at which you are to sell
them?-That is done with some shops belonging to Messrs. Hay,
but with others it is not. To some of them the goods are sent down
at cost price, and the shopkeeper fixes what prices he thinks right.
That is what is done at Fetlar.
8766. I see from the books you have produced, that on September
25 oatmeal was 5s. 3d.: is that per lispund?-That is for a
quarter-boll.
8767. Do you not sell by the lispund?-Sometimes we do, just as
the parties want it.
8768. A quarter-boll would be 3 lbs. more than a lispund?-Yes.
8769. And 5s. 3d. per quarter-boll would be for 35 lbs.?-Yes.
8770. Have you the invoice showing at what price that was
invoiced to you from Lerwick?-I have not.
8771. Do you remember how much it was invoiced at?-No. It
was not a fixed thing for the whole season; it varies.
8772. When did you get your supplies of meal last summer?-It
comes from Aberdeen almost weekly or fortnightly during the time
the fishing continues.
8773. You do not sell much meal in Fetlar after the fishing is
over?-No; the people then have their crops to depend upon.
8774. When do you begin to sell the greatest quantity of goods at
your store?-About April; we begin to be much busier then. From
September until April the people are depending for the most part
upon their own crop, but sometimes they do take a little meal from
us.
8775. Was 5s. 3d. per quarter-boll the selling price for meal during
the whole season?-No; it differs greatly. Sometimes you will see
it is more, and sometimes less.
8776. I see that it is 5s. 3d. in September, and 5s. 9d. in July?-
Yes; I expect that would be about the dearest time.
8777. I see an entry of oatmeal, 22s. 8d., in August?-That would
be for a boll.
8778. Do you sell a boll at the same price, proportionally, as a
quarter-boll?-Just the same.
8779. You do not make a difference for the retail?-None
whatever.
8780. Do Messrs. Hay hold Fetlar, or any part of it, under tack?-
Not so far as I am aware.
8781. Are the fishermen there bound to fish for them in any
way?-I don't think they are; at least not to my knowledge.
They have tenants there; at least they are not tenants exactly, but
Messrs. Hay are factors for the Earl of Zetland. I don't know how
Lord Zetland's tenants do, but I don't think they are bound.
8782. At any rate they are not bound by their tacks in any way?-
Not so far as I am aware,
[Page 214]
8783. Is it mostly Lord Zetland's tenants who fish for Messrs. Hay
in Fetlar?-I think not.
8784. Do some of Lady Nicholson's tenants fish for them also?-
Yes; I should think about half-and-half.
8785. Are there any other proprietors in Fetlar than Lord Zetland
and Lady Nicholson?-Not for the fishermen. There are other
proprietors in the island, but none of their tenants fish.
8786. I see here, under date June 1, 1871, an entry against George
Gaunson, 'Cash for penalty per current account, £4, 2s. 2d.:' what
does that mean?-He was summoned to court for some wrecked
timber that he was in possession of, and that was his penalty,
which was paid by me for him.
8787. You entered that to his debit?-Yes. What meant by
'current account' is, that I paid the money at Lerwick, and it
was charged to me at current account, and I gave Hay & Co.
credit for it in my book at Fetlar.
8788. How many tons of dry fish did you sell from Fetlar last
year?-We sold the following quantities for 1871:
Tons. Cwt. Qrs. Lbs.
Ling, 32 2 3 11
Tusk, 5 2 1 22
Cod, 3 16 3 17
Saith, 0 18 2 15
8789. Had you only ten boats' crews fishing for you last season?-
There were eleven boats.
8790. Did they contain sixty-six men, or were some of them
smaller boats?-Some of them were smaller boats, with only five
men. For instance, in Laurence Donaldson's boat, although there
were only six men, there were five shares, because two boys count
for a share.
8791. How many women and boys had you employed in curing at
Fetlar?-We had eight men and boys-no women.
8792. Have the beach boys got accounts in the ledger also?-Yes.
They are all in one place. [Shows.]
8793. The first is Laurence Brown. His fee was 10s., and, after
debiting his out-takes, he received 7s. 31/2d. in cash in full?-Yes.
8794. The next is John Sinclair, jun.; after debiting his out-takes,
he received 8s. 4d. in cash?-Yes.
8795. The next is John Coutts, who received 9s. 6d.?-Yes.
8796. The next is James Laurenson; his fee was only 5s., and he
received 14s. 11/2d. in cash?-Yes.
8797. The next is Arthur James Tulloch; his fee was 16s., and he
received 6s. 21/2d.?-Yes; he was only employed during part of the
season. I think I had eight besides him.
8798. The next is Peter Sinclair; he had a fee of 10s., and, after
deducting his out-takes, he received 6d. in cash in full, but he had
received 19s. 6d. in cash during the season?-Yes.
8799. The next is George Laurenson; his fee was £4 and he
received £1, 14s. 6d. in cash at settlement, and sundry small
sums in cash have been paid to him in the course of the year?-
Yes. He was a young lad, about sixteen years of age, I think.
8800. The next is Robert Johnston; his fee was 15s., and he
received 7s. 1d. in cash at settlement, having received 5s. 4d.
in cash during the season?-Yes.
8801. The next is George Donaldson; his fee was 10s. and he
received 9s. 1d. in cash at settlement?-Yes.
8802. He seems to have got a number of loaves and biscuit?-Yes.
His supplies were almost entirely for food.
8803. There are also the accounts of two men here; one of them is
Magnus Brown. Is he one of your principal curers?-Yes.
8804. His fee, called beach-fee was £8, 5s., and he received
17s. 41/2d. in cash at settlement?-Yes. He received £1 at the
commencement, and the next entry is 6s. 9d. paid for purchase
at sale. That was purchase at a sale of wreck, which was paid
for him by me, and was the same as cash. Including that purchase
at the sale, he received about 30s. in cash in the course of the
season.
8805. The next is Arthur N. Henderson: was the other
beach-man?-Yes.
8806. His fee was £5; he received £1, 6s. 3d. in cash at settlement,
and 4s. 6d. was paid to him during the season?-Yes.
8807. Were these all your beach people?-Yes.
8808. Why are they not paid weekly wages?-They could have it
in that way if they wanted it. It would be all the same to us; I
don't see any difference.
8809. Why do they not want it?-I don't think there is any
particular reason, except that they don't wish it in that way.
8810. Do you think they would rather have it settled for at the end
of the year?-I think so.
8811. Are not the people that Messrs. Hay employ in the curing at
Lerwick paid weekly wages?-Yes.
8812. But at all the stations, I suppose, they are paid by beach
fees?-Yes; and these are paid at the end of the year.
8813. The books which you keep at Fetlar are, first, the wet fish
book, in which each boat's crew has the amount of each delivery
of fish entered?-Yes.
8814. Then you have another fish book showing the amount of dry
fish shipped by your different vessels?-Yes; that book [showing]
is for the season of 1871.
8815. Do you begin to ship so early as June?-Yes. The men
generally catch a few fish in winter now, and these are shipped
first. The wet fish that are caught in winter are not in the book I
have brought.
8816. Have you a separate book for your winter fish?-Yes.
8817. What quantity of winter fish do you generally sell?-I
cannot say exactly; but for about two years I have had only about
2 or 21/2 tons of dry fish. They are cured along with the first fish
caught in the spring, and sent down.
8818. Then the shipment on June 6th of 4 tons 7 cwt. of ling will
include some summer fish as well?-Yes, spring fish.
8819. The only other book you keep is the ledger?-Yes, and the
goods account book-a book for the goods and the expenses on
the fish-curing.
8820. How do you keep your goods account book?-I enter every
invoice as it comes from Lerwick, and against them I enter my
returns.
8821. All your sales of goods are entered under the names of the
parties to whom they are sold?-Yes.
8822. And that is the only entry of sales you make?-Yes. We
don't enter what we get ready money for.
8823. You do not keep a waste day-book?-No.
8824. How do you balance the accounts with your fishermen?-
The ledger will show.
8825. Is that done by you, or by some one from, Lerwick?-
Always by some one from Lerwick.
8826. How long does it generally take to get all your fishermen
settled with?-Not long; I think about three days.
8827. Some one comes from Lerwick, and the fishermen come to
the office and are settled with in his presence and in yours?-Yes.
8828. Are the accounts read over to the men, or do they generally
have a pass-book?-They are generally read over. Some carry a
pass-book, and some do not.
8829. Are they always read over?-I don't think they are always
read over. Generally I read them, over before the men come up to
settle, so as to have them added up and ready.
8830. The ledger is written up from day to day as the goods are
taken out?-Yes, perhaps twice or thrice, in a day.
8831. And the fisherman signs at settlement?-Yes.
8832. He signs also when there is a balance against him, which
sometimes happens?-Yes.
8833. Have Messrs. Hay & Co. a spirit licence for the sale of
whisky?-No.
8834. Do you not sell whisky at till?-No, not unless a man asks
me to order it for him; and that [Page 215] goes into the current
account at Lerwick, and is a separate thing altogether from the
ordinary dealings.
8835. Is there no public-house in the island?-None.
8836. Do you buy hosiery at the store in Fetlar?-None.
8837. Are there any entries in this book [showing] relating to the
purchase of kelp?-The parties who work the kelp have accounts
in the book, and the kelp is credited to them there.
8838. How many people are employed gathering kelp in Fetlar?-
There is no one regularly employed, only those who are ready to
make it.
8839. Have Messrs. Hay & Co. a tack of the kelp shores?-No; it
is done by any one who wishes to make it.
8840. And the entries are made to the credit of the women who
gather it and burn it?-Yes.
8841. From how many of them have you made purchases during
last year?-Only from about half a dozen. I have only purchased
about 28 cwt. of it.
8842. What is the price paid for it?-4s. 6d. a cwt.
8843. Is that generally taken out in goods?-No.
8844. Do you pay 4s. 6d. when it is paid in cash?-Just the same; I
make no difference.
8845. Do you not have two prices for it as they have in some
places?-No; it is all the same to me whether they take money or
goods. I should like them to take the goods, no doubt, but I don't
compel them.
8846. In Robina Fraser's account I see that she has got more
money than she has given kelp for: why was that?-She made a
promise to work more, but she has not done it yet.
8847. Have you ever tried to send out a number of men to the
winter fishing in large boats from Fetlar?-No.
8848. Do you consider that would be impracticable?-I think so.
The coast is rather tempestuous, with heavy tides, and I don't think
they would make anything of it.
8849. Do you purchase cattle and other farm stock for Messrs.
Hay?-I purchase fat cattle at Martinmas, but only from the people
privately. I bought eleven last Martinmas.
8850. Are these generally credited to the sellers in the ledger, or
are they paid for in cash?-They are paid for in cash at the time
when the cattle are taken away.
8851. Do any of these purchases appear in the ledger?-No.
8852. Are the rents on Lord Zetland's property in Fetlar collected
by you?-No, they are generally collected by the man who comes
up to settle with the fishermen.
8853. Are separate receipts given for them?-Yes.
8854. Does he also settle for the cattle?-No, I generally settle for
the cattle myself.
8855. So that the cattle do not enter the rent account?-Sometimes
they do. Sometimes they wish me to send on the amount to Hay &
Co, to be credited in the next account.
8856. Of the eleven cattle which you purchased last year, would
some be settled for in that way?-Yes. I cannot say how many,
but I think four.
8857. You have no books showing that?-None here.
8858. They will be in the possession of Messrs. Hay; or have you a
cattle-book?-No; I don't have one.
8859. Do the purchases of cattle pass through your current account
with Hay & Co.?-Yes.
8860. Have you a private account of your own?-My account is
in the ledger, but we have a current account besides that. That
current account contains whatever comes from Lerwick, charged
at the Lerwick retail prices, and then all my returns of money or
anything are put to the current account.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GEORGE GAUNSON, examined.
8861. You are a fisherman in Fetlar, and a tenant on Lord
Zetland's property?-I am.
8862. Are you at liberty to fish for any one you please?-I don't
know; we get as good a price from Messrs. Hay as we would get
from any one else, and we fish for them.
8863. Is there any one else on the island who would buy your
fish?-There is only one man on the east side, Jerome Brown,
who takes a little besides Messrs. Hay's people.
8864. But you don't know whether you are at liberty to fish for
Brown or not?-I don't know.
8865. Did you make any arrangement about fishing when you took
your land?-I did not.
8866. How long have you held it?-I think I have been 28 or 30
years in the island.
8867. Have you fished every year during that period?-Sometimes
I fished, and sometimes I was at sea.
8868. But when you have been at home you have always fished,
and sold your fish to Messrs. Hay at the current price at the end of
the season?-Yes.
8869. Have you generally found that you had balance in your
favour at the end of the season?-Yes, very often; but it did not
matter, because when I wanted anything, whether money or goods
or meal, I always got it. Very often we had no money for the
house, but we always got supplies from them.
8870. Where do you sell your cattle and your eggs, and other farm
stock?-We sell them just wherever we can get any person to buy
them. There are cattle dealers and other persons who come about
buying them.
8871. Do you sell oftener to them or to Messrs. Hay?-It makes
very little difference; when we have any cattle to sell, whenever
any one comes round he gets them.
8872. Did you ever sell a beast to anybody but Messrs. Hay?-
Yes; many a time. I have sold some horses to lots of people who
were going about. I have sold some to Mr. Thomas Williamson, in
Yell. I think he got the last one I sold; it was in February. It was a
little horse.
8873. Who have you sold your cattle to?-Sometimes to Messrs.
Hay's people, and sometimes to any other people who came round
asking for them.
8874. Did you ever sell them to anybody except Messrs. Hay?-I
have.
8875. When?-Some time before this.
8876. How long ago?-Last year I had none but the horse.
8877. Do you sell one or two beasts every year?-No; some years I
sell none at all, and some years only one.
8878. Where do you sell your eggs?-Just anywhere that we can
get the best price for them.
8879. Do you sell them generally to Messrs. Hay?-No;
sometimes not.
8880. Is there anybody else in Fetlar who buys eggs?-Yes; Mr.
William Tulloch buys some.
8881. Has he a small shop?-It is not a great deal of a shop that he
has. He deals in cottons and such as that, and he buys eggs. I get
6d. a dozen for them sometimes, and sometimes perhaps 7d.
8882. Did you sell most of your eggs last year to Mr. Tulloch or to
Mr. Garrioch?-I could not say. I don't deal much in that way
myself.
8883. You leave that to your wife?-Yes.
8884. Do you always get your supplies from Hay Co.?-Yes. I
never deal with Tulloch or Brown, and there is no other shop in
the island that is worth going into.
8885. But are there any other shops at all except Tulloch's and
Brown's?-I daresay some woman would sell some things
sometimes, but they would not be of any account.
8886. Do you know where Tulloch and Brown, and that woman
you speak of, get the goods they sell don't know.
[Page 216]
8887. Do you generally get a good quality of stuff from Hay &
Co., at a fair price?-Yes; they are very fair prices.
8888. Have you ever got goods at Lerwick?-Yes.
8889. Do you find the goods supplied at Hay & Co.'s shop in
Fetlar to be as good and as cheap its those you get in Lerwick?-
Yes; I have no reason to complain about that.
8890. What was the price of meal that you have been buying
lately?-It is much the same as we get it at in Lerwick; sometimes
it little higher and sometimes a little cheaper. I think last season
it was generally about 20s. per boll for oatmeal; but I don't
remember about that particularly.
8891. Do you have to keep up your own houses and your own
fences?-Yes; the house I am living in was built when I came to
it, and it is the same yet; we have to keep it in good order.
8892. The landlord does not do that for you?-I don't know; but
the last time something was done to the house it was put down to
Lord Zetland's account.
8893. Are most of the tenants on Lord Zetland's property in Fetlar
fishing for Messrs. Hay?-I suppose most of them do.
8894. Do they generally understand that they are under any
obligation to fish for them?-I don't think so; but it would make
very little difference fishing for any other body, when we would
get the same price from them.
8895. You don't think of curing your own fish, then?-No.
8896. Where do the Fetlar people sell their hosiery?-Generally in
Lerwick; they go down there with it. My family do not knit much,
because they have no wool, unless they get some to buy.
8897. What is paid for wool?-Sometimes it is 2s. per lb. for fine
wool, sometimes 1s. 6d., and so on.
8898. Do you get that from your neighbours?-There are not many
neighbours near us who have any sheep.
8899. Where do you buy it, then?-Sometimes we go to Lerwick
and buy it, and sometimes in Yell.
8900. Is there no shop in Fetlar where you can buy it?-No.
8901. Where do you buy it in Lerwick?-I don't know; I do not
buy it myself. They buy it just at any place where they can get it
best.
8902. To whom do you pay your rent?-To Hay & Co.
8903. Is it deducted from your account when you settle?-Yes.
8904. Have you ever tried the winter fishing?-No; they don't do
much in that with us. They might catch some in winter, but not
many. They have generally a long way to go to seek them, and it
requires particularly good weather to go out with the little boats.
8905. Have you not large enough boats for the winter fishing?-
No.
8906. Do you think you could do anything if you had large decked
boats?-I don't know; they have never tried them there. They
might do something with them, but I don't think they would pay
very well.
8907. Have your rents been raised lately?-No; they were raised a
little about eight or nine years ago.
8908. Was there any different arrangement made at that time about
the fishing?-No.
8909. Have you ever known any man in Fetlar who had to pay
liberty money for freedom to sell his fish to another than the
tacksman or factor?-No.
8910. And no man in your time has been put out of his ground for
fishing to another?-No; I never heard of anything of the kind in
Fetlar, either on Lord Zetland's or Lady Nicholson's ground.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, WILLIAM STEWART, examined.
8911. You are a tenant and fisherman at Seafield, Mid Yell?-
Yes. Kirkabister is the town I live in.
8912. Who is your landlord?-Mrs. Budge.
8913. To whom do you sell your fish now?-I have sold them this
year to Mr. Thomas Williamson.
8914. Who did you sell them to last year?-To Mr. Laurence
Williamson, Linkshouse.
8915. Why did you leave him?-Because Mr. Sievwright, Mrs.
Budge's factor, wished us to do it.
8916. Did you get a letter from him about the fishing?-Yes.
8917. Have you got it?-Yes. [Produces the following letter]:
'<Lerwick>, 22<d Nov>. 1870.
'WILLIAM, I now write, as I promised, to explain what I
expect the Seafield tenants to do in regard to fishing, that you may
communicate the same to them.
'The business premises at Seafield cannot be allowed to
remain vacant, and consequently unprofitable while it is clear
they must do so unless the tenants fish to the tenant of these
premises. The Seafield tenants, therefore, must fish to Mr.
Thomas Williamson upon fair and reasonable terms, and I
understand he is quite prepared to meet them on such terms.
I believe he will, in every respect, do you justice; and so long
as he does so, you have no reason to complain. But should it
happen that he fails to treat you fairly and honourably (of which
I have no fear), you can let me know, and matters will soon be put
right. You and the tenants, however, must not act towards Mr.
Williamson in a selfish or hard way either, for it is quite as
possible for you to do so to him as it is for him to do so to you.
Both he and you all must work together, heartily and agreeably;
and if you do so, I have no fear, humanly speaking, that the result
will be success to both.-I am, yours faithfully, W. SIEVWRIGHT.
'William Stewart, Kirkabister, Seafield, Mid Yell.'
8918. Is that the only letter you have got on the subject?-The
only one.
8919. Have you a written tack?-No.
8920. You hold your land from year to year?-Yes.
8921. Have you, since you received that letter, fished for Mr.
Thomas Williamson?-Yes, in the spring and summer.
8922. And in winter?-In winter there was not a great deal doing.
8923. But what fish you did catch, what did you do with them?-I
believe we sometimes went to Mr. Laurence Williamson and
sometimes to Mr. Thomas Williamson with them, just as it suited.
8924. When you received that letter, had you made any
arrangement to fish for the following year?-No.
8925. Had you not arranged to fish for Mr Laurence
Williamson?-No, not for myself.
8926. Nor for any one else?-No. There were none of our boat's
crew who had made any arrangement with Laurence Williamson,
so far as I know; but the other boat's crew I think had made some
sort of arrangement. There are only two boats' crews that belong
to Mrs. Budge's property.
8927. How many tenants are there on her property?-I think there
were formerly 23, but now there are only either 21 or 22.
8928. Mr. Sievwright speaks in his letter about the business
premises at Seafield: what do you understand by that?-The shop
and the station.
8929. Are there a merchant's shop and a curing station at
Seafield?-Yes.
8930. Were they not let previously to the time when that letter was
written?-No.
8931. Do you get the same price from Mr. Thomas Williamson
that Mr. Laurence Williamson used to give you?-Yes.
8932. That was the current price at the end of the year?-Yes.
8933. But you have got your goods from him instead of buying
them from Laurence Williamson?-For myself I did; but I think
some of the men bought their goods from Lerwick.
8934. Were these men paid in cash?-Yes.
8935. Was Mr. Thomas Williamson's shop [Page 217]the nearest
place to your house where you could get goods?-Yes.
8936. Did you take your goods from him before you fished for
him?-Sometimes. I had a sort of running account at his shop. I
was doing bits of jobs for him, and sometimes I got money, and
sometimes I took some of his goods.
8937. But you did not do so much with him before as after you got
that letter?-No; the principal part of my dealing was for the
fishing.
8938. But you did not buy so many goods from him before last
winter?-Certainly not.
8939. Did you buy from Mr. Laurence Williamson then?-I did,
because I was keeping a running account with him then.
8940. Do you keep a running account with him now?-I was
forced to do that, because I was not clear with him when I went to
fish for Mr. Thomas Williamson.
8941. Were you therefore forced to keep a running account with
him?-I was not in any way forced, but the account was not
cleared up, because I did not have the means.
8942. Have you added to it since then?-Not much.
8943. But it is not paid up?-It is not; I have never been able to do
it.
8944. Do you ever sell any beasts off your ground?-I sold one at
1st May last year, at the sale.
8945. Who was the purchaser?-Mr. Thomas Williamson.
8946. Was that at a sale at Mid Yell for the whole country?-The
sale to which I went was at Cullivoe for North Yell.
8947. Had you promised Mr. Thomas Williamson the beast before
you went?-No. When I went I was at liberty to sell it to any one I
liked, but he bought the beast at the roup.
8948. Did anybody else bid for it?-No.
8949. Was it marked?-No. It never was entered into the bill of
sale at the roup.
8950. But were the horns of the beast marked at any time?-I
don't know.
8951. Why was it not entered in the bill of sale?-I made an
agreement with Williamson just to take it away at the price I fixed.
He said he would give what I asked for it. I asked £5, and I sent
the beast home, and he gave me that for it.
8952. That took place in the first season you fished for Mr.
Thomas Williamson?-Yes.
8953. By that time, I suppose, he had a little account against
you?-I don't think it would be much. About that time the spring
fishing was finished, and I don't think there was very much either
way between us. I don't think I had much to give him, or that he
had much to give me.
8954. Have you a pass-book?-No.
8955. How was the price of that beast paid?-It was remitted to
Mr. Sievwright for my previous year's rent.
8956. Why had you not paid it before?-Because I had not the
means.
8957. Had Mr. Sievwright been asking you for your rent before?-
Yes. When he was here at Hallowmas I offered him the beast, and
he told me to keep her until any time when I was aware that cattle
would be at the best price.
8958. Did he say anything to you about selling it?-No. I just sold
it to Mr. Williamson, and he remitted the money to Mr.
Sievwright.
8959. Was that arranged between you and Mr. Sievwright, or
between you and Mr. Williamson?-It was arranged between Mr.
Williamson and me that he was to send on the money.
8960. Did Williamson ask you to agree to that arrangement?-No;
I asked him to do it for me, because he was in the habit of writing
to Mr. Sievwright oftener than me.
8961. Had you paid your rent through Mr. Williamson before, or
have you done it since?-No.
8962. Have you paid your rent that was due at November?-I have
not paid it yet. I intended to be in Lerwick before this time, but I
have not been able to get.
8963. Have you settled with Mr. Williamson for the last year's
fishing?-Yes. I think I had £6, 14s. to get, and I got it in cash.
8964. Did none of that go to pay your rent?-It is lying yet to go. I
have it in my possession, because I have not seen Mr. Sievwright
since.
8965. What price do you pay for meal at Seafield?-I think the
first I got was 22s. 6d. I think the last was much about the same,
but there might be a difference of 6d. or so.
8966. Was it of good quality?-It was very good.
8967. Where does your wife sell her eggs?-Anywhere that she
can get the best tea, from Lerwick north to Seafield.
8968. Does she always sell them for tea?-For tea, or any small
thing she can get.
8969. Are these sales settled for at the time?-Yes; they are settled
right away.
8970. How much tea will she get for a dozen eggs?-I cannot tell,
because I leave all these matters to her.
8971. Where does she sell her knitting?-She does not do much of
that.
8972. Has she an account of her own?-No; she never had.
8973. Is there any kelp gathered here?-Very little.
8974. Who buys it?-Mr Thomas Williamson has bought some for
a year or two back but I don't think he bought any last year. My
eldest daughter was employed for two years in working at it in the
summer time, and I think she had an account for it; but I don't
know much about that.
8975. Were you at one time a tenant in Whalsay?-Yes.
8976. When did you leave it?-In 1862.
8977. Up till that time you were a tenant under Mr. Bruce of
Simbister?-Yes.
8978. What rent did you pay there?-The rent I always paid for
my ground was 26s.
8979. Did you fish for Mr. Bruce at that time?-Yes, for the late
Mr. William Bruce.
8980. And you had an account with him at the shop in Whalsay?-
Yes.
8981. How did you pay your rent?-Generally by fishing.
8982. Was it put into your account?-Yes. The thing was carried
on on a very strange system. Our land was put in to us at a low
rent, and our fish were taken from us at as low a value. The prices
for the fish never varied, either for the spring or summer.
8983. Do you mean that they were the same every year?-They
were. Whatever they might be in the markets, they were all the
same to us.
8984. Had you never the benefit of a rise in the market at all?-
Never.
8985. Did you not object to that?-We just had to content
ourselves with it, or leave the place.
8986. It was part of your bargain for your land, that you were to
give your fish at a certain rate?-Yes; there were so much of the
fish taken off for the land. That was the first of the fishing. We
got 3s. 4d. cwt. for ling, 2s. 6d. for tusk, and 20d. for cod, and so
much of each kind of fish was taken off until the land was paid
for; and then the prices were raised to 4s., I think, for ling, 3s. 2d.
for tusk, and 2s. 6d. for cod, for all the rest of the summer fishing.
8987. Did you get these prices for a number of years?-I think for
the thirteen years that I was on the station they never varied one
halfpenny for the summer fishing. The prices for the winter
fishing varied little. Sometimes we would sell the small cod as
low as 2s. 6d., and at other times at 3s.
8988. Did you sell the winter fishing for payment at the time, or
did it go into the account too?-It was never put into the account
at all; we just got what we required for it. It was ready payment;
but it was very rarely that we got money for the winter fishing.
8989. Did you know at the time that the prices you [Page 218]
were paid at the latter part of the season were lower than the
market price of the fish?-We knew that but it was just the
bargain.
8990. Was that the system with all the tenants in that time?-With
every one.
8991. When did that system cease?-I think it ceased about a year
after I came here about 1863.
8992. Why did you leave Whalsay?-There was new division of
the land, and I did not consider that I was getting a good farm. I
was personally acquainted with Mr. Budge, who was leaving the
island then and coming to this property, and I came along with
him.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, LAURENCE WILLIAMSON, examined.
8993. You are a merchant in this neighbourhood?-Yes; at
Linkshouse, Mid Yell.
8994. Have you been long in business there?-Nearly eight years.
8995. On whose property are your premises?-The late Robert
Nevin Spence's property.
8996. Are there many tenants on it?-There are a few, but I could
not tell the number exactly.
8997. Are they engaged in fishing?-Some of them are.
8998. Are they at liberty to fish to any one they please?-Yes.
8999. You were engaged in the fish-curing business to a certain
extent?-Yes. I do very little in it now.
9000. Your business has been considerably reduced?-Yes.
9001. Has that been since Mr. Sievwright wrote the letter which
was produced by the last witness?-Yes. Mrs. Budge's tenants
were the men that I had fishing to me and when they went away I
could not fill up my boats.
9002. Had you made arrangements with any men for the fishing of
last season when they were taken away?-Yes. It was rather too
late when they let me know they were going.
9003. How do you mean that they were too late?-They
commonly make up their boats' crews about Hallowmas or
Martinmas, at the time of settlement, and one of the crews had
agreed to fish for me for the rising season, not knowing then that
they were to be taken away. Of course they had to leave me,
because they knew, or at least they believed, they would be
differently dealt with if they did not leave.
9004. Did you make any objection to them leaving after having
struck a bargain with you?-Yes, I slightly objected to it; but, of
course, I could not help it.
9005. In what way did you object?-The men who formed that
boat's crew had signed a sort of written agreement that they were
to fish for me in the rising year, on the same terms as they had
agreed with me before. Sometimes they don't have a written
agreement, only a verbal one, but on this occasion there was
written agreement entered into.
9006. I suppose a verbal agreement is the usual way of arranging
for the season's fishing?-Yes, generally.
9007. Did these men happen to have a written agreement?-Yes;
we had a little bit form drawn up and agreed to.
9008. Had you any reason for having a written agreement at that
time?-I was rather doubtful in my own mind that they would be
leaving me, or rather that they would be forced to leave.
9009. Was that because there had been some talk about Mr.
Thomas Williamson getting these fishermen?-The talk was not
about Mr. Thomas Williamson at that time, but about Mr. Magnus
Mouat. I think his name was mentioned when the talk commenced
about the men leaving.
9010. But you did not insist in your objection to your agreement
with the men being departed from?-No.
9011. Was that for fear of injuring the men?-Yes. Of course I
saw that I could not legally hold them.
9012. Why? If they had agreed to fish for you, were they not
bound to fulfil their bargain?-I thought I could not legally hold
them, and I just let them go.
9013. Were you not afraid of them suffering for it if they fulfilled
their bargain with you?-They must have suffered for it too.
9014. Did you make any representation on the subject to Mr.
Sievwright?-No. The only communication I had was with the
men themselves.
9015. How many men did you lose in that way?-Twelve.
9016. Were some of these men in your debt at the time?-Some of
them were. They had a sort of running account.
9017. Have you any men fishing for you this year at all?-For the
rising year I believe we will have two or three boats' crews.
9018. Had you any last year?-We had two. I and another man are
in a sort of company, and we had two boats last year-one each.
9019. Did you find that the fact of Mrs. Budge's tenants leaving
you and going across the water materially affected your business in
the shop?-I cannot say that it injured it very much.
9020. But it would make some difference?-I don't think it made
a great deal.
9021. Were not their accounts taken away from you?-There are a
good many of them who deal with me still, but not to the same
extent.
9022. From what quarter did you get your fishermen who engaged
with you for the rising season?-From the parish of North Yell.
That is the next parish to this.
9023. How far do they live from you?-Some of them are 10 miles
from here.
9024. What estates are they on?-I could hardly tell, except about
some of them.
9025. Have any of these men accounts for supplies in your
shop?-Yes; perhaps 4 or 5 of them.
9026. For whom were they fishing last year?-Some of them
fished for Pole, Hoseason, & Co, and some for Spence & Co.
9027. Do you know why they are leaving these merchants?-I
cannot say.
9028. Have you offered them better terms?-I don't think so.
They hardly ever say what they have been getting before. We
just make them an offer, and if they accept it we come to an
understanding.
9029. Do you know whether any of them were indebted, at last
settlement, to Pole, Hoseason, & Co., or Spence & Co.?-I cannot
say.
9030. Are these men nearer to Greenbank than to you?-Yes, a
great deal.
9031. Are your accounts with fishermen kept in a ledger?-I keep
them in a sort of shop ledger. Each boat's crew has a company
account, and each man has private account. [Produces ledger.]
9032. Your fish-book is a separate book?-Yes; with columns
showing the weight of the fish delivered.
9033. What are these pages which you have turned down in your
ledger?-They contain the account of William Stewart, who has
just been examined.
9034. I see that for 1869 the balance of his account carried
forward was £10, 0s. 41/2d., the total of his out-takes at the end
of 1869, including that balance was £17, 8s. 11d. The balance
due by him then was £6, 19s., after allowing £10, 9s. 11d. for
his fish, which was reduced by half of skipper's fee £1, being a
balance of £5, 19s. carried to the year 1870?-Yes.
9035. Then in 1870 there is an entry of 13s. 11/2d. account at North
Yell: what does that mean?-That is for some small things he got
there. We cure our fish there.
9036. The amount of his account at the settlement of 1870 was
£17, 6s. 01/2d., and the amount of his fishing was £14, 18s. 41/2d.,
leaving a balance of £2, 7s. 8d. There is it deduction of 17s. 6d.:
what was that for?-It was for a man who went off for Stewart.
[Page 219]
9037. Then there is it check for 19s.?-That was a check he gave
me for that sum.
9038. The balance which is left is £2, 6s. 2d.?-Yes.
9039. On January 4, 1871, there are-spirits 2s. 21/2d., and on
November 18 and November 29 there are additional supplies to
the amount of 11s. 6d., making the balance now due £2, 19s.
101/2d?-Yes.
9040. Are these all the supplies that you have given him since he
ceased to fish for you?-Yes. These are all that have been entered
in the book.
9041. But he may have got others and paid for them in cash?-
Yes.
9042. And he would get goods in payment for his winter
fishing?-He has not been at the winter fishing this year.
9043. Or at the spring fishing last year?-He was at the spring
fishing for Mr. Thomas Williamson.
9044. What men have you engaged for the rising year?-The
engagement has been made partly with my partner in North Yell,
and I don't know the names of them yet.
9045. But you know which men have opened accounts with you
from North Yell?-Yes. There is Charles More, Gutcher, North
Yell; he has got supplies to the amount of 19s. 8d.; and Thomas
Brown, who has got supplies to the amount of 17s.
9046. Are these men bound to you now by written engagement?-
No, it is merely verbal. Their boat's crew is made up.
9047. Who is your partner in North Yell?-Arthur Nicholson; he
has a shop of his own at Gutcher.
9048. Has he boats of his own besides those he has in company
with you?-No; but we have never been rightly in company. He
has been doing my work in North Yell, and getting a fee for it, and
our fish have been thrown together, and sold together.
9049. Is this [showing] the only book you keep?-It is the only
book I keep for accounts. I keep an invoice-book and it fish-book
also.
9050. Do you keep a day-book?-I keep a book for scrawling
things into, until they are posted up in the ledger.
9051. Do you buy kelp?-No.
9052. Do you buy hosiery?-A little sometimes.
9053. Do you pay for it in the way that is usual in the country, by
goods across the counter?-Yes, mostly.
9054. Do you give out wool to knit?-I sometimes give out
worsted, and I pay for the knitting of it in the same way.
9055. Have you a knitters' book, or are the knitters' accounts kept
in the ledger?-I keep a book for women's accounts.
9056. Is that book used entirely for sales of hosiery?-No. We
don't do a great deal in hosiery. We buy few haps and small
shawls, but the principal thing we buy is worsted. I buy a good
deal in the course year from the spinners, and I sell it chiefly in
Lerwick to the merchants there. I sell most of it to Mr. Robert
Linklater. I invoice it to the merchants, and I take a note of the
quantities when I send them away.
9057. When did you send away the last?-I suppose it would be
about a couple of months ago.
9058. At what price did you send it out?-We get 3d. per cut for
very fine, and 21/2d. and 2d. for the coarsest.
9059. You sell to the merchants as a sort of wholesale dealer?-
Yes.
9060. The price per pound of that worsted varies according to the
quality?-Yes.
9061. It does not correspond with the price per cut in any way?-
No. Of course the finer the worsted the finer the thread is.
9062. You do not calculate the price of that worsted, by the pound
at all?-No. We just judge of the fineness or the thickness of it.
9063. The names of the men who were fishing for you in 1871 are
entered in the ledger?-Yes.
9064. Had you generally more than two boats previous to last
year?-Yes. We sometimes had four, but that was the most I ever
had. This [showing] is the company account for one of the boats,
Basil Ramsay & Co., and then there are the private accounts of the
men.
9065. In Basil Ramsay's private account, the entry 'to cash to rent'
on November 17, 1869, referred to cash advanced to him for the
purpose of paying his rent?-Yes. He was at that time £2, 11s.
61/2d. in my debt upon the settlement of the previous year. After a
bad year I have to advance money to the fishermen in that way, in
order to prevent them from being turned out.
9066. Here [showing] is an account of Janet Sinclair, Herra: who is
she?-She keeps a small shop of her own, and sells things for me
at Herra and buys worsted for me.
9067. Have you many women employed in that way selling goods
for you?-Only that one.
9068. In another account there is meal 3s.-that would be half a
lispund-in August 1871: was that the selling price at the time?-
Very likely it was.
9069. There is also flour 1s. 2d. on the same date: how much was
that?-8 lbs., or a peck.
9070. Where do you get your supplies of meal and flour?-Chiefly
from Lerwick, from R. & C. Robertson.
9071. Would you consider yourself likely to drive a much larger
business if you had a number of fishermen in your employment?-
I don't know. Of course there would be more men and more stir
and more traffic, and I would likely turn over more goods, because
if the men could buy as cheaply from me they would not go
anywhere else.
9072. Have you ever had any difficulty in getting the men from
another merchant to fish for you in consequence of them being in
debt to that other merchant-I never tried that.
9073. But have you found that men had difficulty in engaging with
you on that account?-No.
9074. Have you ever been asked by any merchant to undertake the
debt due to him by any man whom you employed?-I have never
been asked by the merchant, but I have been asked by the men for
a little money to clear off their account with another merchant
when I engaged them.
9075. Have you been asked to be a security for them?-No. I have
only given them cash.
9076. When did you do that last?-It is five years ago. There
was a boat's crew who left Pole, Hoseason, & Co. at that time and
came over to me. That was Basil Ramsay's boat.
9077. And you advanced them money with which to pay their debt
to Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-Yes; there was a little advance
required.
9078. Do you suppose you will have that to do with the boats'
crews you have engaged this year?-I don't think so.
9079. Do you know whether they are clear?-I don't know.
9080. How do you ascertain the current price at the end of the year
for settling with your men?-We know what the fish cost, and we
know what they sell for. We know what the wet fish turn out dry.
We can make a calculation of that from the quantity of green fish
delivered to us and from the quantity of dry fish which we have to
sell.
9081. How much was the proportion in your settlement last
year?-I cannot tell exactly what it was last year, but on an
average it is 2 cwt. 14 lbs. to 2 cwt. 20 lbs. of wet fish to 1 cwt.
of dry fish.
9082. Do you make the allowance according to the proportion you
ascertain in each year to exist between your total weight of dry fish
and your total weight of green fish?-Yes; there are calculations
of that kind made. I don't do it personally, but I believe some of
the big curers do it, and then we pay after them.
9083. Do all the large curers agree upon a certain average for
each year?-No; they don't make each other acquainted with that.
They just pay according to what they sell the fish for, and they give
the fishermen the benefit of the rise or fall in the market.
[Page 220]
9084. I am not talking of the average of the current price; I am
talking of the average weight of the dry fish as against the green.
Does each merchant make his own calculation with regard to
that?-I suppose so. I have made calculations in some years, and
in others I have not.
9085. How do you take it when you do not make it calculation?-I
wait until I see what is current, and then I pay the same.
9086. That is for the money price, but the current price depends on
the proportion of dry fish to green?-Yes.
9087. You find out what the large curers have been selling for or
have been allowing their men, and you give the same?-Yes.
9088. Are you aware whether all the large curers give the same
current price or does it vary with the different houses?-In North
Yell, Spence & Co. have some fishermen, and Pole, Hoseason, &
Co. have some. We hear what their men are paid, and then our
men are paid the same.
9089. Do Pole Hoseason, & Co, and Spence & Co., so far as you
know, always pay the same rate?-Yes.
9090. Do you know how their current rate is fixed, or how it is
ascertained what the men are to get?-I suppose they just make
a calculation in the way I have mentioned.
9091. But you don't know anything about it except that you
hear what they pay?-No. I make a calculation for myself to see
whether it is over or under, but we tell our men that we will give
the current price stated for these parties if they will come and fish
for us.
9092. Is your bargain with regard to boat hire the price of lines,
and so on, the same with your men as Pole, Hoseason, & Co. have
with their men?-Sometimes it varies a little; it is not always
fixed. Sometimes we give the men half-a-year's hire off, as an
encouragement. They are what are called freemen, and we have to
give them some inducement before they will come to us.
9093. What is the usual hire in Yell?-The hire is divided into
two. It is £6: £2, 8s. for the boat, and £3, 12s. for the lines.
9094. Is that charged against the boat in the company account?-
It is just made up in the balance with the men, and settled for by
them. They always carry pass-books.
9095. Then that does not enter the company account?-No.
9096. What is entered in the company account?-It is just the
goods got for the supply of the men during the fishing season at
the fishing station. [Shows one account.] The North Yell account
is an account kept at the station in a pass-book. The boat's hire is
estimated before the earnings are divided into six; we make a
balance sheet of it, which is added up, and then we place each
man's balance to his account.
9097. When you make a deduction from the boat hire as an
inducement for the men to fish for you, do you mean that instead
of £2, 8s. you charge them only £1, 4s.?-Sometimes we take
more off than that. Perhaps on a £6 hire we will take off £3.
9098. Is not that a very liberal deduction?-Yes.
9099. You cannot have much profit on your boats when you do
that?-There is no profit on the boats whatever.
9100. What profit do you get on hiring out boats at all?-We get
no benefit from that. We only get little benefit from the fish and
from the goods sold.
9101. Is it usual to allow so large a deduction from the boat
hire?-I cannot say what is done by any one but myself. We
have not been in the habit of doing it much. We sometimes take
a little off the hire of the boat, in order to make it as moderate for
the men as possible.
9102. Are you doing that just now in order to induce fishermen to
come to you?-Yes. They come and say they will fish for us if we
will give them the currency, and perhaps half the hire down, or the
whole hire down.
9103. So that the deduction on the boat hire is really a premium
for them coming to fish for you?-Exactly.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ROBERT SMITH, examined.
9104. You are now a fisherman and tenant at Burravoe, on the
land of Mr. Henderson?-I am.
9105. Were you formerly resident on the island of Samphray?-
Yes. I was there for 35 years.
9106. For whom did you fish when you were there?-For Mr.
Robert Hoseason, and his son-in-law James Hoseason, all that
time.
9107. Did the island belong to them?-Half of it did, and the other
half belonged to Lord Zetland. I lived on Mr. Hoseason's half.
9108. Were you bound to fish for them at that time?-Yes.
9109. Did you ever sell your fish to any one else?-No; we had no
occasion to do so, because we got the same payment from him as
from another.
9110. Did you never sell your winter fish to another?-No.
9111. Where did you get your supplies at that time?-From Mr.
Hoseason at Mossbank.
9112. You kept an account with him, and settled at the end of the
year?-Yes, every year.
9113. Had you generally anything to get at the settlement?-
Sometimes we had a few pounds to get, and sometimes we
could not afford to pay the balance.
9114. You never dealt anywhere else at all?-No; there was no
one else near hand that we could have gone to.
9115. Did you never think of going to Lerwick?-No; we went
very often to Lerwick, but not in the way of dealing. It was always
from Mr. Hoseason that we got what we wanted when he was
employing
9116. When you left Samphray you came to Burravoe?-Yes.
9117. Why did you leave?-Because Samphray was thrown waste
and made into a park for sheep and cattle.
9118. You have since lived at Burravoe and fished for Mr.
Henderson?-Yes.
9119. You have been a skipper of his?-Yes.
9120. Are you to fish for him next year?-I don't know if I will be
able to go; I am getting too old. I have been at the fishing every
year since 1820.
9121. Is it the bargain with you at Burravoe that you are to fish for
your landlord?-Yes.
9122. But you will not be put out of your land if you give up
fishing altogether?-No, not that I know of. I have no thought of
that at the present time; at least I have no knowledge of it.
9123. Have you spoken to Mr. Henderson about not fishing for
him next year?-I have not. I have not made a settlement yet.
9124. Did he not tell you that he would not remove you this
year?-No, he has not told me that; but I expect that he will not
remove me if I can pay my rent. He has been very kind to me.
9125. Are you sure that he did not tell you that you might remain
this year?-I am sure he did not, but he told me that he would not
throw me off while I was able to do anything. That is all the
security I have.
9126. What do you mean by doing anything?-Any employment
that he may put me to, or anything in the way of fishing if I am
able to go to it.
9127. Does not the payment of your rent depend upon your
fishing?-Sometimes it does; but if I have a cow to dispose of
and he requires it, he takes it. If he does not require it, I am at
liberty to dispose of it to any one that I can sell it to.
9128. When he takes it, how do you settle about the price?-It
generally goes into my account.
[Page 221]
9129. But who fixes the price that is put upon it?-I do. I ask
him if he will give me so much for it, and if I can get a better price
elsewhere I can sell it there.
9130. Did you ever sell a cow to anybody else than Mr.
Henderson?-Yes. I have not sold cows, but I have sold
young stots. About three years ago I sold three young stots-
one to Mr. Joseph Leask, Lerwick, and another to a man who
came round; I don't know his name.
9131. Did not Mr. Henderson want these?-No. He engaged for
one, and then when the man came about asking if he could get
beasts to buy, Mr. Henderson told him to call upon us for them.
9132. Did Mr. Leask and the other man pay the money down to
you for the beasts they bought?-Yes; it was sent from Lerwick to
me.
9133. Were you due rent to Mr. Henderson at that time, or any
account for goods?-Perhaps I was; it was very seldom that I was
not due him an account.
9134. Why was that?-Because the fishing often did not turn out
well.
9135. Did you ever go to any one except Mr. Henderson for your
goods since you went to live at Burravoe?-If Mr. Henderson did
not have what we wanted, then we would go to another for it.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ANDREW BLANCE, examined.
9136. Are you a fisherman, living at Burravoe?-Yes. I am a
fisherman, but part of my time has been employed in the seal and
whale fishing.
9137. Have you any land at Burravoe?-Yes, I occupy some land
there under Mr. M'Queen.
9138. Have you ever been at the summer fishing?-Yes; I was
at the ling fishing for two years, one year for Mr. William
Williamson, who has lately left Ulsta, and the other year for
Mr. Henderson.
9139. When you were at Ulsta did you run an account for what you
wanted from Mr. Williamson?-Yes, a small account. If he had
any small things that I wanted, and if I saw that I could get them a
bargain, I took them from him.
9140. That account was settled at the end of the year?-Yes.
9141. And you got the other things you wanted at Burravoe or
Lerwick, or wherever you liked?-Yes.
9142. Where did you get most of your goods?-At Lerwick.
9143. Did you find it more profitable to get them there?-I don't
know that it was more profitable; but for a long time the most of
my accounts have been in Lerwick.
9144. How often have you been at the seal and whale fishing?-I
have been there every year for, I think, the last fifteen or fourteen
years.
9145. Is that the reason why most of your accounts are in
Lerwick?-I suppose it is.
9146. It is handier for you to have them there when you go to the
whale fishing?-Yes.
9147. What agent do you generally engage with for that fishing?-
Messrs. Hay & Co. I have always engaged through them, except
one season when I was engaged for six weeks by Mr. Leask. That
was for the sealing voyage in 1867.
9148. When do you generally go to Lerwick to engage for the
whaling?-About the end of February or beginning of March.
9149. Do you go straight to Messrs. Hay's office and tell them you
want an engagement?-No, I don't go straight there; but I have
always found them very favourable towards me, and therefore I
have always been inclined to go out from them.
9150. Do you get your outfit supplied there?-Yes, if I require it.
9151. Do you require a new outfit for the whaling every year?-
We always require something new.
9152. Do you also require supplies for your family while you are
away at the fishing, such as meal, tea, flour, and things of that sort,
and clothing?-Yes.
9153. Where do you keep your account for these things?-With
Messrs. Hay & Co.
9154. You always get an advance paid down to you when you are
first engaged?-Yes; we get our first month's advance, and then
we get a half-pay ticket.
9155. Do you always get a half-pay ticket?-Yes, those who
require it.
9156. But do you always get it?-Yes; I have got it ever since it
came up. I think it is only four or five years since it came to be
used in Shetland.
9157. Were there no allotment tickets in use before four or five
years ago?-No, not in Shetland. I never saw them before that
time.
9158. Do you leave your allotment ticket with your wife?-We
can leave it with any one we choose. I have generally left it with
Messrs. Hay.
9159. Did you write anything upon it when you left it with
them?-No.
9160. Is the allotment ticket an order to pay to you?-Yes, or to
any name which is signed on it.
9161. Was it generally taken in your own name?-I had to
mention the name of some person to be filled into the note, and
the name of any person that I wanted to draw the money was
signed there.
9162. What name did you generally give to be entered in the
note?-I forget; but I think the name of Mr. William Robertson,
in Messrs. Hay's shop, has been upon it.
9163. Was that done last year?-Yes.
9164. Was his name on it in 1870 also?-I cannot exactly say.
9165. But last year you know that it was?-Yes.
9166. And he was to draw the money on your half-pay allotment
ticket?-Yes; he has the ticket, and while he keeps it he knows
that no person can be drawing the money. They know that the
money is lying, but I don't think Mr. Robertson has drawn the
halfpay for me ever since the system commenced.
9167. Was the purpose of giving the allotment ticket to Mr.
Robertson, that Messrs. Hay might give your family credit for
goods in your absence; or was it a sort of security?-It was a
sort of security; but I had no fear about them providing for my
family, even although they had not got the ticket.
9168. You think they would have made the advances at any
rate?-Yes. They never refused either goods or money.
9169. But still the allotment ticket was a sort of security to
them?-Yes.
9170. When you return from your voyage do you generally go
straight home or do you take your wages at Lerwick?-I take
my wages at Lerwick.
9171. Before you come home?-Yes, if possible.
9172. Do you go up and settle before the shipping-master or
superintendent?-Yes, I must do that.
9173. That did not use to be done at Lerwick?-It did not.
9174. Why has it been done lately?-I don't know.
9175. Was it not because it was not easy to get the Shetland men
to wait for a settlement-they were so anxious to get home?-
Perhaps it was. I and several others have to go to the North Isles
and it is not every day we can get there. Staying one day in
Lerwick might make us stay half a dozen, or perhaps a dozen,
days; and therefore if we see a chance to get home whenever we
land we are glad to take it.
9176. Then you go back when you find it convenient?-Yes.
9177. And you go before Mr. Gatherer the superintendent, and
receive your wages in cash?-Yes; but many a time we have the
chance of getting our money before we leave Lerwick if we could
only wait another day.
9178. When you have an account standing in Messrs. Hay's books,
how do you settle it?-We go back to the shop from the shipping
office and pay the money.
[Page 222]
9179. How long has that been done?-I suppose for the last four or
five years.
9180. Before that, you had a settlement at the office, and only got
the balance in cash?-Yes.
9181. Is there any deduction made now from the cash you receive
at the superintendent's office?-Nothing except the advance of
our first month's wages, and the amount drawn under allotment
tickets.
9182. But when you give an allotment ticket in the way you have
mentioned, how do you do: do you get your half-pay handed over
to you in cash?-Yes, if it is not drawn.
9183. Is it sometimes drawn?-No; my half-pay has not been
drawn, so far as I recollect. [Produces four accounts of wages.]
9184. Who is William Manson, agent for master?-He is Messrs.
Hay's clerk.
9185. The only deduction here is for stores in the ship, and your
advance, and the fees?-That is all.
9186. Then in that year, 1870, you got the balance of £16, 3s. 6d.
paid to you?-Yes.
9187. What was the amount of your account at Hay & Co.'s?-I
don't remember in that year.
9188. Here [showing] is your account for 1871 when you had a
balance of £19, 2s. to receive: do you remember the amount of
your account, that year?-I do not.
9189. How much ready cash did you bring home with you when
you had settled on 25th July?-I am not quite sure, but I think it
was about £16.
9190. Then your account for the season would only be about £3?-
That was all.
9191. Would that be the whole of the supplies you got for your
family that year?-Yes; it was short voyage.
9192. Had you also a short and a very successful voyage last
year?-Yes.
9193. You have not got your final payment of oil-money for
1871?-No.
9194. Have you got it for 1870?-Yes.
9195. Was that settled for before the superintendent, Mr.
Gatherer?-Yes, it was paid at the custom-house. I think I got
an account of wages for that too, but I could not say exactly.
The oil on which the money was paid was 42 tons. The first
payment of oil-money was upon 150 tons, making 192 altogether.
9196. Was the whole of that paid at the custom house?-Yes.
9197. Are you quite sure about that?-I am sure enough.
9198. And are you sure you got an account of the second payment
of oil-money, although you have not got it now?-I am not sure
about that. I think I got an account of wages for that too but I
cannot say.
9199. How did you manage to keep the accounts of wages you
have produced, when you did not keep the account for the last
payment of oil-money?-Because I got these accounts of wages
when I was going home, but at the time when I got the account for
the last payment I was going away.
9200. Is your last payment of oil-money generally made to you
when you are shipping in the following year?-I never get it until
I am going away next year, and therefore it is easy to see how I
may have lost the papers which I got then.
9201. Have you any accounts running with Messrs. Hay between
the end of one whaling voyage and the beginning of another?-
Very often I have. If I require anything I send to Messrs. Hay for
it, or to any other man in Lerwick.
9202. Do you also get advances of cash from them when you want
them?-Yes.
9203. Do you generally settle with Messrs. Hay at the time when
you are engaged for the next year's voyage?-No. I settle with
them at the time when I get paid.
9204. But you don't get your second payment of oil-money until
you are going away for a new voyage?-I get it whenever it
comes; but I told you that last year I did not get it until I was
going away.
9205. Did that never happen before?-It has happened before.
9206. You have produced a receipt granted by you to Mr. Leask
for £1, 5s. 3d. in 1867: how does that receipt happen to be in your
possession?-That was a short voyage, only six weeks, in the
'Polynia' of Dundee and there were no half-pay tickets. I got an
advance from him, and when I paid the money again at the end of
the voyage the receipt was handed back to me.
9207. Was that advance given to you in cash?-No, I got my first
month's advance in cash, and then I got that advance in goods.
9208. Was that for your own outfit, or for your family?-I think it
was for my own outfit.
9209. Have you got payments of that kind frequently from the
agents who have engaged you?-No; that was the only one.
9210. Did you get your first month's advance in addition to this?-
Yes.
9211. Did you get it in cash or in goods?-I got it in a line to be
cashed a day or two after we sailed. I gave the line to Mr. Leask's
man, and got the principal part of it in money. Then they drew the
money from the shipowner after I left.
9212. You took your first month's advance partly in money and
partly in goods?-Yes, I think that was the way of it.
9213. And you got £1, 5s. 3d. in goods in addition to that?-Yes.
9214. Why did you want that amount of goods?-I have wanted
three times that amount, according to circumstances. For one
voyage I would require that amount, if I had not a good stock.
9215. Why did you not get the whole of your first month's advance
in goods when you say you were requiring them?-Perhaps I was
requiring money for some other purpose. I had perhaps to send
part of it home.
9216. Why did you not take the whole of your month's advance in
goods, and then get that advance in cash?-Perhaps I got more
than that in cash. That advance was only 25s., and I had £2, 10s.
per month.
9217. Did you get the whole payment of your wages for that
voyage before you left?-Yes, except the second payment of
oil-money. That second payment is made after the oil is boiled.
There is a calculation made when we come home with regard to
the whole amount of oil that is in the ship, and when we arrive
we are paid a proportion of that. Then, when the oil is boiled;
they see what it actually amounts to and we are paid the balance
of our oil-money.
9218. Then on this voyage in 1867, which you made for Mr.
Leask, you were advanced at sailing the whole amount of your
wages and the first payment your oil-money?-Yes.
9219. And all that you had to get afterwards was your last payment
of oil-money?-Yes.
9220. You got the whole of the amount in cash or goods?-Yes.
9221. But mostly in goods?-I could not say that it was mostly in
goods, because, except the £1, 5s. 3d. and perhaps 10s. of my first
month's advance I do not think I got more goods from them. I am
not sure; about that; but I cannot say that I got more.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined.
9222. You hold some land now from Mr. M'Queen at Burravoe?-
Yes.
9223. Do you fish for Mr. Henderson?-No; I fish for Mr. Adie at
the Out Skerries.
9224. Were you formerly a tenant on the Lunna estate?-Yes. I
left it seven years ago because Sheriff Bell's tenantry there were
handed over to Mr. Robertson, and were bound to fish for him. He
and I had disputed at one time, and I was not very well satisfied
about fishing for him. I was paying my land rent to the Sheriff,
and I thought that when a man was [Page 223] paying his land rent
he ought to have freedom to fish to the best advantage for himself
that he could.
9225. Where did you engage to fish that season?-At the Skerries,
to Mr. Adie.
9226. You thought you could make a better thing of it by fishing
for Mr. Adie, and you went to him?-Yes.
9227. What happened in consequence of that?-Nothing
happened, except that I must either be bound to fish for Mr.
Robertson or leave the property.
9228. Were you told that you must leave the property?-Yes; the
Sheriff himself told me that.
9229. Was Mr. Robertson his factor or his tacksman?-His
tacksman.
9230. To whom did you pay your rent at Lunna?-To Mr.
Robertson when he came to be tacksman, but the Sheriff
before that.
9231. Who first told you that you were to leave your ground at
Lunna?-The Sheriff himself.
9232. When was that?-The year before I left. That was nine
years ago.
9233. Was that when you had first engaged with Mr. Adie?-No.
I fished for two years for Mr. Robertson after that, after I removed
to Yell.
9234. Then why did you leave Lunna? I thought you told me it
was because you engaged with Mr. Adie that you were turned out
of your ground there?-No; it was not because I engaged with Mr.
Adie. It was because I would not fish for Mr. Robertson.
9235. Why did you fish for Mr. Robertson for two years after that,
although you were not bound?-We were fishing then at our own
freedom.
9236. Were you asked to sign any obligation to fish for Mr.
Robertson?-No.
9237. How did you intimate that you were not going to be bound
to fish for him? Had you a conversation with Mr. Bell on the
subject?-Yes. At the time when Mr. Bell's tenants were handed
over to Mr. Robertson, I was in the merchant service; but they
made a statement then that the tenants were to be bound to fish for
him.
9238. Who made the statement?-Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson
made it after I came home. For the last ten years I have been at
the ling fishing. The first winter I came home I caught some cod,
small and big, and I salted them, and went down to Lerwick and
sold them to Messrs. Hay. Mr. Robertson got word of that, and
got an account from Messrs. Hay of the cod that I had sold. He
handed that to the Sheriff, who came to Lunnasting; and I was
called up and found fault with for not selling the fish to Mr.
Robertson as tacksman. He asked me my reason for that; and I
said that I had signed no agreement to fish for him; that I was due
him nothing; and that I did not see why I could not sell my fish to
any man I liked. Bell said very little to that; but he gave me to
understand that after that I was either to leave the property, or to
pay £1 of a fine if I sold my fish to any other person.
9239. Was that a written notice?-Yes.
9240. Have you got it now?-No, I have lost it.
9241. Did you pay the fine?-Yes.
9242. Did you not try to get off with it?-No.
9243. Did you think you were legally bound to pay it?-No; and
that was the reason why I would not stay upon his property. If I
could have got a 'downsitting' handy that suited me at the time, I
would not have paid it, because I did not think it right.
9244. Did you fish for Mr. Robertson after that?-Yes, for two
years.
9245. How did you happen to fish for him?-We just made a kind
of agreement with him, first for two years; but still we were not
satisfied, and as we did not wish to be bound to fish for him, we
stopped.
9246. Did anything more pass between you and Mr. Robertson or
Mr. Bell, about leaving the ground or about being bound to fish?-
No.
9247. Then how did you come at last to leave Lunna? Did you
give them notice that you were going, or did they give you notice
to quit?-I was on the look-out after that for some other place,
because I was determined, after paying that £1, which I was not
due to shift to a convenient place at the first opportunity.
9248. You got a place at Burravoe; and since then have you been
at liberty to fish for any person you pleased?-Yes.
9249. Do you get your supplies at Mr. Adie's store at Skerries?-
Yes; our sea stock, and all that we require during the fishing
season
9250. When you are at home, where do you get your supplies?-
Sometimes from Lerwick, and sometimes we get something from
Mr. Adie when we settle.
9251. Do you bring home supplies with you from Skerries?-No,
we never settle at Skerries; we settle at Voe in Mr. Adie's office.
9252. Have you an account at Voe as well as at Skerries?-Yes.
Our Skerries account for the fishing season is always handed over
to Voe, and it is all settled there.
9253. Do you sometimes bring a large supply of provisions home
from Voe?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. When we think we
can make a better of it, we will send to Lerwick for them.
9254. Have you not to bring them a good bit by land when you get
them from Voe?-Yes.
9255. Why do you take the trouble to carry your supplies so far as
that?-We have no particular reason for it, only we are there at
any rate, and we can get them there as good a bargain as we can
get them in Lerwick and nearer us, and it saves us the freight.
9256. How often do you go to Voe in the course the year?-Once
a year.
9257. When you go there to settle, are you asked to take some
goods home with you?-Not at all, unless we require them
ourselves.
9258. Of course you are not obliged to do it unless you like; but
don't they ask you whether you want any goods?-Yes, they will
do that. Sometimes Mr. Adie's shop people will ask if we are
requiring anything.
9259. Is that before you settle or afterwards?-It is generally after
we have settled.
9260. Does that supply go into the next year's account?-If we are
requiring the cash we have got, either for paying the land-master
or any other purpose, they will let the goods stand until next
account.
9261. But sometimes you got goods before settlement, and they
went into the past year's account if you did not want the cash?-
No. Since we fished for Mr. Adie, there were no goods we got at
that time which went into the past year's account. They always
went into the rising year's account, unless they were paid for in
cash.
9262. Sometimes you paid them in cash?-Yes.
9263. And in that case they would not enter any account?-No. I
generally pay all my goods with cash, so far as I can.
9264. Do you find them cheaper when they are paid for in that
way?-Yes.
9265. And that is what you do generally when you go to
Lerwick?-Yes.
9266. Have you generally had a balance to get from Mr. Adie at
the end of the year since you fished for him?-Yes, always.
9267. Could you get the same goods that you get at Voe as cheap
nearer home, and as good?-I cannot say.
9268. Is there any difference in quality between Mr. Adie's goods
and those you get at Burravoe or at Lerwick?-I cannot say that
there is. There is often a great difference in the quality of goods,
even although they are sold at one price, and as being the same
quality.
9269. Where have you found that?-I have bought tea on different
occasions at one place, and at the same price, and have found
differences in the quality. I don't think that was due so much to
the people selling it, as to the chest decaying. I have sometimes
found it good and sometimes bad in every place I have had it from.
9270. Do you take goods from Mr. Henderson's shop at
Burravoe?-I have had very few goods from him. I never had
any meal or tea from him. All I have got has been a few nails or
anything I required for my boats.
[Page 224]
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, ARTHUR ANDERSON, examined.
9271. You are a fisherman at Burravoe, on Mr. M'Queen's
property?-I am.
9272. Were you formerly a tenant and fisherman at Lunna?-Yes.
I was not very long a tenant, but I was a fisherman. I left it 7 years
ago at Martinmas, at the same time as Johnston.
9273. Had you been bound there to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I did
fish for him; but while I was a young man, and unmarried, they
could not compel me.
9274. Had you some land there afterwards?-Yes. I had some for
two years before I left.
9275. Were you told then that you were bound to fish for Mr.
Robertson?-Yes. The Sheriff told me that at the same time that
he told Johnston.
9276. Were you both together at the time?-No.
9277. Had you both been sent for at the same time?-There was
a meeting in a place near Lunna, and the whole tenantry were
told that they were to be under one control, and to fish for Mr.
Robertson. I think that meeting was held in the schoolroom. I
think both Sheriff Bell and Mr. Robertson were present.
9278. Did Mr. Bell tell you that he expected you all to fish for Mr.
Robertson?-Yes.
9279. What else did he say?-I was not very old then, and I don't
remember.
9280. Why did you leave Lunna?-I was in a double family, and
I thought the place I was in was too small for the whole of us;
therefore I thought I would try to look out for some place in which
to live.
9281. You did not leave it because you wanted your freedom?-
Not altogether.
9282. Had you been fined for selling your fish anywhere else?-
No.
9283. Do you know any other man in Lunna who was fined for that
except Johnston?-I don't remember of any.
9284. Who do you fish for now?-For Mr. Adie, the same as
Johnston does.
9285. Do you deal in the same way as he described?-Yes.
9286. How do you get your supplies, for your family?-Sometimes
Mr. Adie will send us meal for our families from Aberdeen or
from Leith, and we will pay the freight. It is not easy for him to
send it to us from his place at Voe, but he will send it from these
other places if we ask him.
9287. Do these supplies go to your account?-Yes.
9288. Do you ever get supplies anywhere else?-Sometimes in
Skerries, where we fish.
9289. These go into the same account, and are settled for at
Voe?-Yes.
9290. Do you bring goods from Voe at settling time when you
want them?-We always bring something.
9291. Are you asked if you want goods when you go there to
settle?-Yes; they will ask us if we desire anything.
9292. But you need not take them unless you like?-No.
9293. Do you get any goods at Burravoe?-Not very much. We
don't run very large accounts there.
9294. Mr. Henderson's shop is not very far from where you
live?-It is not very far.
9295. Would it not be handier for you to get your goods there?-
We don't run very large accounts with him. I might get my goods
from him if I was fishing for him, but when I am not putting any
fish or any produce his way I don't ask anything.
9296. Could you not get the money for your fish, and buy your
goods where it was most convenient for you?-We might.
9297. Did you never think of doing that?-No.
9298. Why?-I don't know.
9299. Do you think Mr. Henderson will charge higher prices from
those who do not fish for him?-I cannot say.
9300. You never were afraid of that?-No.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GILBERT ROBERTSON, examined.
9301. You are a fisherman and tenant at Hamnavoe on Mr.
M'Queen's property?-I am.
9302. You are an elder of the Established Church in South Yell
parish?-Yes.
9303. How long have you been at Hamnavoe?-All my life. I am
56 years of age, and I was born on the property.
9304. Were you formerly bound to fish to the tacksman on the
property?-No; I have had liberty all my time to fish for any one
I liked, except for three years, when my landlord, the late Mr.
Robert Bruce, required us to fish for him. He succeeded to the
property about 1853, and it was in 1857 or 1858 that he required
our services.
9305. You have been a skipper for a number of years?-For two
years, but not for the last two years. I was two years at the whale
fishing in 1868 and 1869. In 1868 I engaged with Messrs. Hay,
and in 1869 I engaged with Mr. George Reid Tait. I got my first
month's advance laid down at the custom-house, and when I came
back I got the rest at the custom-house. If I was due a small thing
to the agent I went to him and paid it.
9306. Did you get an outfit?-Only a small thing. I had some
things myself, and it was only a few things that I required from
the agents. Anything that I required for my family I got from
Robertson & Co. I have had an account with them for a long
time. I have had as much as £7, 3s. from them in a year.
9307. Why did you deal with them?-I found them to be good
men. They always try to advance people as far as they can, and
especially people who strive to pay them back again.
9308. Have you ever fished in the ling fishing?-Yes; I have been
there for the last two years. The year before last I fished for Mr.
Henderson, Burravoe, and last year I fished for William Jack
Williamson at Ulsta.
9309. Did you run accounts with them?-Very little.
9310. Was that because you dealt with R. & C. Robertson?-Yes.
9311. Do most of the men deal with the merchants they fish for?-
They do, because they have no money of their own, and they
require their fishing to pay for what they get.
9312. Do they get their out-takes on credit?-Yes, until the fishing
is done, and then they clear it off. I had no dealings with these two
merchants except for my living in the summer time-meal and tea
and sugar.
9313. Were these for your company account?-Yes.
9314. Do you think you get your supplies cheaper from R. & C.
Robertson than you would get them from the merchants you fish
for?-I think so.
9315. And better, or at least as good?-Yes. If I send to Messrs.
Robertson for a sack of meal, I get it at the Lerwick price, with the
addition of the freight, but when the meal comes to a merchant in
the North Isles, he has to take a little profit on it besides.
9316. Are any of the merchants here supplied with their meal from
R. & C. Robertson?-I cannot say.
9317. Because if they are not they might possibly get their
supplies from the south, and land them here cheap as Messrs.
Robertson can land them at Lerwick?-They might. I believe
Mr. Henderson, Burravoe, fetches his meal from the south
occasionally.
9318. And as easily as the Robertsons can fetch it to Lerwick?-
Yes; he has just the freight between Lerwick and Burravoe to pay.
9319. But he might bring it by a sailing vessel from Aberdeen?-
He might, but it always comes by the steamer.
9320. Do you know as a fact that the price at Lerwick is less than
the price you would be charged meal at Burravoe?-It is a little
less.
9321. Do you also find that the quality of the meal better there?-
It is sometimes as good in Lerwick at a price of 2s., or 2s. 6d., or
3s. cheaper at Burravoe than it is in the North Isles. I have bought
flour lately from [Page 225] Messrs. Robertson at 16s. or 18s. a
boll, and have bought it as low as 14s. 6d.
9322. Have you bought any meal during the last year?-No; I did
not require it.
9323. But before that you found a difference of 2s. on the flour,
and 3s. or 4s. on the sack of meal?-Yes.
9324. Have you bought provisions or supplies from Mr.
Henderson, Burravoe, lately?-Not for a long time. Perhaps
I might buy a 1/4 lb. of tea or something like that, if I was at his
door; but I paid for it then, and there was no account.
9325. You say you have been quite free to fish for any one you
pleased except during three years: did Mr. M'Queen ever forbid
you to fish for Mr. Henderson?-Once. I think that was about
three years ago; but he (Mr. M'Queen) came to see that that would
not do and it was never more spoken of.
9326. Did you fish that year for Mr. Henderson?-No. I went to
Greenland; but in the following year I fished for him.
9327. Did you go to Greenland because Mr. M'Queen asked you to
do so?-It was almost because of him telling me not to fish for
Mr. Henderson.
9328. But you did not like to be interfered with?-No. If I paid
my rent to my landlord at the end of the season, I liked to be at
liberty to go where I pleased. With regard to the winter fishing,
it does not matter much, because they will pay ready money for it
whenever we bring in the fish.
9329. Don't you think it would be better if the people here were
paid ready money for everything, instead of running such long
accounts, and settling only once year?-It might, but I don't know
how things would go then. If we were to pay ready money for
everything that we got from the merchants, it might not come to
answer very well.
9330. Why is that?-Because if I were taking anything to a
merchant to sell, such as hosiery, and asking ready money for it,
I would not get so much as if I were to let the price lie in his
hands for some time.
9331. But don't you think the merchant would sell his goods
cheaper to you if you were paying him in ready money?-I
believe he would do that.
9332. Don't you think the people would manage their affairs better
if they had the money in their own hands?-I think so; because if a
man does a day's work, and is not paid for it until the end of five
or six months, he is not likely to do so well with it as if the money
was paid down to him at once and he could go where he liked with
it, to make the best bargain for himself in buying things.
9333. Is it not a great trouble to keep in mind all the things that
you have got to your credit-a day's work now, and your fish
again, and a beast, perhaps which you have sold, and then to
recollect all the outtakes you have had besides?-Yes. I have
sold few beasts now for several years, but I always got the money
paid down to me on the day when I sold them.
9334. You think that is handier than getting them put down into an
account?-Yes.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK POLE, examined.
9335. Are you a partner of the firm of Pole, Hoseason, & Co.?-I
am not a partner.
9336. Are you the manager at Greenbank?-Yes.
9337. You were cited to bring some books?-I was and I have
brought the only book which can give any information as to our
intromissions with fishermen. Our principal books are kept at
Mossbank, because that is the head-quarters of the firm.
9338. What books do you keep at Greenbank?-We only keep a
ledger into which the account of each fisherman who has one is
entered.
9339. Are there some fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank
who do not open accounts?-I don't know if there are any; there
may be one or two.
9340. In that account at Greenbank do you enter on the one side all
the out-takes of the fishermen, and on the other the sums which
are due to them for fish or any other matters?-No. The ledger I
have with me shows merely the shop accounts of the fishermen.
The ledger you refer to is kept at Mossbank.
9341. Are all the balances made at Mossbank?-Yes.
9342. Do the men go there for settlement?-No, they settle at
Greenbank; but my brother settles with them, and he brings the
book over with him and takes it back with him when he goes to
Mossbank again.
9343. What quantity of fish did you sell from Greenbank last
year?-About 54 tons of dry fish.
9344. What number of boats had you engaged to produce that
quantity?-We had 14 boats altogether. One boat had three men
fishing in it, another had four, and the rest had six apiece.
9345. Then the only book you have at Greenbank the ledger
containing the accounts for shop goods furnished to your men?-
That is the only book we keep there.
9346. Is there a woman's book besides?-No; we don't keep a
woman's book at Greenbank.
9347. Do you purchase kelp?-Yes, we do; and we enter it in the
kelp-book by itself.
9348. Is not that a sort of woman's book?-No.
9349. Is it not women mostly whom you employ at that?-It is
women mostly, indeed altogether, who are employed in making
the kelp at Greenbank.
9350. What quantity of kelp did you sell last year?-I think only
about nine tons.
9351. What price do you allow to women for kelp?-We have two
prices for kelp: 4s. in goods, and 3s. 6d. in cash.
9352. Is that a lower price than on the mainland?-I am not aware
that it is, but I cannot speak as to that.
9353. Then, of course, you have a fish-book?-It is kept at
Mossbank.
9354. How do your factors mark down the fish at landing?-There
is a book kept at Gloup, which is the station in summer, and the
factor marks the fish there. Then, as soon as the season is over,
the amount is added up and sent to Mossbank to be entered in the
fish-book.
9355. It is merely the amount of fish that is added up in the book
at Gloup?-Yes.
9356. And the balance is made in a separate book at Mossbank?-
Yes; in a ledger by itself, which is kept there.
9357. In that book the total goods supplied at Greenbank are
entered in a slump sum?-Yes. The fishermen keep their shop
account in one part of our business premises, and their slump
account, as it were, in another part.
9358. That is to say, that at Greenbank they check their shop
account?-Yes.
9359. Do they come to check it generally themselves, or do they
have pass-books?-Some of them get pass-books, and others do
not.
9360. If they have no pass-book, how do they check it?-I suppose
they check it from their own memory.
9361. Do they come for that purpose before settling time?-No;
they generally come about settling time.
9362. Do they not settle at Mossbank?-No; we settle with all our
Greenbank fishermen at Greenbank.
9363. Are your books brought from Mossbank for that purpose?-
Yes. As I said before, the principal of our business brings them
along with him when he comes to settle with the men, and he takes
them back with him when he goes back.
9364. Is it at that time that the totals of the shop accounts at
Greenbank are entered into the principal ledger?-Yes; and the
fisherman gets a note of the amount of his account from me. He
settles with me for that, and takes the note in to my brother, who
settles the whole account.
9365. Have you also a day-book at Greenbank?-Yes.
[Page 226]
9366. Is that for cash transactions, or do the whole of your
transactions first pass into it before being carried into the
ledger?-Almost all our transactions pass through it.
9367. What transactions do not pass through it?-If I happened to
be posting my ledger at the time when a person was getting
anything to be marked down, I might mark it straight into the
ledger without putting it through the day-book, in order to save
the trouble of posting.
9368. Do most of the fishermen whom you employ at Greenbank
and Gloup reside within a short distance of these places?-No;
they are scattered over the parish of North Yell, and a few of them
are in this parish.
9369. Your brother, when examined at Brae, mentioned the
properties which belonged to the members of the firm, and of
which he was tacksman, but I forget whether he mentioned if
there were any properties of which members of the firm are
tacksmen: are there any such?-My brother is tacksman of Mr.
Walker's property in North Yell, and Pole, Hoseason, Co. are
factors for George Hoseason of Basta, in North Yell, also. I think
the number of tenants on Mr. Walker's estate might be fourteen,
and the number on George Hoseason's may be nine or ten.
9370. Are these men bound to fish to you by the terms on which
they hold their land?-They are not bound by any written or
special engagement, but it is understood that they will fish to us,
and most of them do so.
9371. Are they bound to fish for you in the Faroe fishing?-No;
we have no Faroe fishing in connection with Greenbank at all.
9372. But you have at Mossbank?-Yes.
9373. If one of these men were to go to the Faroe fishing, would
you consider yourself entitled to the first offer of his services in
one of your smacks?-We would.
9374. Then there is an understanding to that effect?-It is
understood that these men will fish to us if we require them.
9375. In point of fact, do any men on these properties in North
Yell engage for the Faroe fishing with any other merchants?-
There are very few, if who go from North Yell to the Faroe fishing
now. It is principally young men who go there. I cannot at this
moment recollect any one who goes to Faroe from the north
district.
9376. The day-book and ledger and fish-book are, I understand,
the only books which are used at Greenbank and Gloup?-At
Gloup we have a sort of wastebook, in which any goods are
entered which are bought by anybody during the season when
we have goods there.
9377. But that is merely for the purpose of being carried into the
permanent ledger at Greenbank or at Mossbank?-At Greenbank.
These accounts, of course, are settled for at Gloup before the men
leave there.
9378. Are these company accounts?-Some are company accounts
and some are private accounts.
9379. Can a man have his private supplies at Gloup while he is
residing there as well as his company supplies?-Yes.
9380. Have you a publican's licence for the premises at
Greenbank?-No; we have a certificate for getting a licence if
we wish to take it out, but we have not taken it out for years. I
don't care for selling liquor, and therefore I do not take it out.
9381. How do the men get supplies of that kind: is there a
public-house in the district?-No.
9382. Therefore they must buy in a stock of spirits when they want
them?-I suppose so; but they very temperate class altogether. I
don't think they use much liquor.
9383. Do they not require it at the station and when they are going
to fish?-At the station we allowed to keep a small quantity of
liquor, with which to supply our fishermen during the season.
9384. Is that under the Excise regulations?-I understand it is. It
is my brother who takes charge of these matters; but I understand
the Excise permit us to have a small quantity, for the purpose of
supplying our fishermen only.
9385. Are your supplies of provisions and soft goods at Greenbank
furnished from Mossbank, or do you get them direct from the
wholesale merchants?-Generally we get them direct from the
wholesale merchants.
9386. Are they landed in Yell?-Yes.
9387. But I suppose they are invoiced to the firm at Mossbank?-
Yes.
9388. From whom do you get your principal supplies of meal and
flour?-I should prefer to give the names privately. [Writes the
names of two firms.]
9389. I see in your ledger the account of Lawrence Danielson,
Houlland: is that a fisherman?-Yes.
9390. I observe that cash is sometimes entered in his account: does
he come to you when he wants a small advance of cash for any
immediate need?-Yes.
9391. Are applications of that kind common, or does a man
generally get on without cash until settlement?-Occasionally a
man may require a little advance in cash, but, as a general rule,
any cash which we give out is at the time when the fishermen
settle. After man has settled his account, he perhaps does not
have as much money as he requires, and he may wish small
advance, and it is generally given to him. He may also get a trifle
occasionally at other times in the season, but it is generally about
that time that the bulk of advances in cash are made.
9392. Do you square off your accounts in the ledger after
settlement?-No; before the settlement.
9393. Then the entry here on November 27th, 'By Mossbank
ledger, so much,' means what?-It means that the account there
was transferred to the Mossbank ledger.
9394. And that indicates the amount which the man was entitled to
receive in cash, unless there was something standing against him
in the Mossbank ledger as well?-Certainly; there might be a
balance against him there.
9395. 'By amount of Gloup account, £1, 13s: 11d.:' was that
entirely for his supplies at Gloup during the fishing season?-That
was for the amount of his private account at Gloup; and that
account, as I have said, is settled between him and our factor at
Gloup, and is entered here.
9396. I see entries of meal, 1s. 5d. and 5s. 8d.: what quantity of
meal would that be which is charged 5s. 8d.?-It would be a
lispund, or four pecks.
9397. What is the quantity charged 1s. 5d.?-One peck, or eight
lbs.
9398. Was that the selling price of your meal last summer?-Yes,
by the peck.
9399. Do you charge less when a larger quantity is taken?-Yes;
we charge sometimes 1s. or 1s. 3d. and sometimes as much as 2s.
less per boll. The price per boll would be somewhere about 25s.
or 26s. when the lispund was at 5s. 8d.
9400. What did you sell meal at per boll last summer?-It is very
rarely that I sell bolls at Greenbank. Generally when a quantity of
that kind is required, we order it direct from the south, and it is
charged to the men at Mossbank.
9401. Do you purchase hosiery at Greenbank?-We do very little
in that way.
9402. I see one woman credited in the ledger with shawl: is that an
exceptional transaction?-Yes, most exceptional transaction. We
used to do a good deal in hosiery, but we found it was a very bad
speculation, and so we gave it up. We were losing money by it
every year: we would have been in the debtors' prison, I suppose,
if we had continued to go on with that trade.
9403. Are the women's accounts for kelp kept in the same
book?-Yes; if a woman is to be credited with kelp it is entered
there.
9404. Do you purchase wool?-No; but we have some sheep: at
least I had the management of some sheep this season, and I sold
the wool for behoof of the party who owned the sheep.
[Page 227]
9405. When you employ people to work for you, are they paid at
the time, or at the settlement?-We sometimes pay them at the
time, and sometimes at settlement.
9406. Are people employed in curing fish always paid at
settlement?-Not wholly. We have a class of hands who are
paid by beach fees, and another class whom we employ as day
labourers, and we pay these either daily, weekly, or monthly, or
whenever they like.
9407. Or at settlement, if they have an account?-Not necessarily.
Some of them may have an account, and yet be paid daily.
9408. I see in the ledger that one woman is credited on July 1st,
'By work in full, 7s. 7d.,' and the account is made up: that work, I
suppose, only went into the account. What kind of work would it
be?-It was dressing worsted.
9409. Then, on January 14, there is, 'By work, 3s. 2d.:' was that
dressing worsted also?-So far as I recollect, it was.
9410. I see here a special entry, 'By dressing, 3s. 9d?'-That is the
same thing only differently expressed. That woman dresses any
little worsted we may buy.
9411. Was that hosiery goods?-No; it was the worsted itself, the
yarn.
9412. Do you buy the yarn ready made, or do you give the wool
out to be spun?-We buy it ready spun and dress it, and send it
south.
9413. You don't get it made up?-We do not.
9414. But the dressing here is paid for on the same principle
of accounting which you adopt in your transactions with the
fishermen?-Just in the same way.
9415. And you just settle for it at the end of the year?-Not at
the end of the year; just whenever the woman likes.
9416. I see that this balance has been made at March 31, and
another balance is made in April, and another in July?-Yes.
9417. Are the sales of fish transacted by you at Greenbank, or
through the firm at Mossbank?-Through the firm at Mossbank
entirely.
9418. Are you generally acquainted with the transactions in that
department?-No. I may happen to know occasionally about
some things; but I don't know particularly, as a general rule.
9419. Do you know the price at which the fish were sold last
year?-I have an idea about what it was, but I could not say the
exact figure.
9420. Do you know to whom they were sold? Were any of them
sent to Spain?-I am not aware that any were sent to Spain. I
don't think there were any sent abroad at all. I think they were all
sold in Scotland and Shetland.
9421. Who buys from you in Shetland?-Mr. Joseph Leask at
Lerwick; he is a very large fishbuyer.
9422. Why do you not sell your fish direct to the south?-I
suppose we find it to be an advantage to sell to him. The
Greenbank fish were all sold to him last year, and I believe
some were sold from Mossbank too, but I could not say the
exact amount.
9423. Can you explain how the current price of the season is
ascertained, according to which you settle with your fishermen?-
I cannot explain it exactly; but I believe some of the curers may
correspond with one another about what they consider to be a fair
price.
9424. Did you sell last year at the same price as your neighbours,
Spence & Co.?-I don't know.
9425. If there is a difference in the price obtained by two or three
neighbouring firms for their fish, do you strike an average in order
to deal with your fishermen, or how is it that the fishermen are
settled with?-I am not aware that there is any average struck. I
think, as a general rule, the fishermen are paid to the full extent of
the highest price realized by the large curers.
9426. Suppose you were selling 10s. or £1 a ton cheaper than your
nearest neighbours, in consequence perhaps of having to sell
earlier, or when the market was in a depressed state?-Such it
thing occurs sometimes.
9427. Would you in that case settle with your fishermen according
to the price obtained by the other party?-Certainly.
9428. Is that an invariable rule?-In my experience it has been the
rule.
9429. Is that because the fishermen are sure to find out who got
the highest price and would be dissatisfied, or is it part of the
understanding that it is the highest current price according to
which they are to be paid?-I believe the fishermen generally
understand that they are to be paid according to the highest price.
9430. Then if a merchant is specially fortunate and gets a price
much higher than the ordinary prices of the year, does that regulate
the whole prices throughout Shetland so far as the fishermen are
concerned?-I should say not; but I think that is a thing that very
rarely happens. I think the principal curers, so far as I know, get
much about the same price for their fish. There may be a slight
variation here and there, but it small.
9431. They will get pretty much the same, I fancy, if they sell in
Shetland to one gentleman or two?-Yes; but I am not aware that
they all do that.
9432. Do you ever sell any fish for exportation to Spain?-I
cannot say that we have ever sold any for that purpose. No
doubt some of the fish we have sold may have gone to Spain
indirectly.
9433. But you have not sent them there on your own account?-
No.
9434. I presume the bulk of the transactions at Greenbank are
credit transactions, and enter the ledger?-No. We do a great
deal in cash payments.
9435. Is that with fishermen?-In some cases with our own
fishermen, and in other cases with other people. We do a
considerable business across the counter for ready money. I
should say that in our shop business we sell as much goods for
cash and butter and eggs, and so forth, as we do for fish.
9436. Are these cash transactions, as they may be called, speaking
generally, with the same parties, or with different parties from
those whose names appear in the book as having got goods which
are set against their fish?-In some cases they would be with the
same parties, and in other cases with others. For example, it is
generally women that we buy yarn from, and it is very often
women who bring us eggs and butter.
9437. Do you settle the whole of these transactions at the time?-
Yes, as a general rule.
9438. But these women may have an account which enters the
women's book?-We keep no women's book.
9439. Then when a woman does deal with you that way, she settles
her transactions at once?-Generally at once.
9440. When you sell a quarter lb. of tea, or a lispund of meal, or a
bit of cotton over the counter in a ready money transaction, is the
same price charged as if it were entering the book?-Exactly the
same, in all cases.
9441. Does it not follow from that that your profit upon the
transactions which enter the book and are settled for at the end
of the year is much less than what you make upon the cash
transactions?-If we were to make no bad debts, it would not
be much less. It would be much the same.
9442. Would it not be less in this way, that you might turn your
money over twice before these accounts were settled, and you
would either have the interest for the year or you might make
another profit?-True; but the rate of interest is so exceedingly
small at present, that the money is worth scarcely anything at all.
9443. I suppose it is a consideration in that matter that if you lose
the interest upon the money that is invested in goods, you gain by
the interest upon the money that is not paid to the men until the
end of the season?-There is not much gain there, because we
have often to pay the fishermen their money some months before
we receive it.
9444. When are your fish sales made?-Towards the end of
September or beginning of October, and they are generally made
on a three months bill.
9445. That is on a bill payable in January, and the [Page 228]
men are settled with in December?-In the end of November or
1st of December.
9446. So that the men are paid a month before you receive the
proceeds of your fish sales?-Yes, a month or two.
9447. In that way, therefore you do not stand upon an equality with
the men in the matter of interest, but on all these credit sales of
goods you are losing interest?-Looking at it in that way, that
would be so.
9448. I should have thought it not unreasonable that you should
have a discount for these cash payments: why have you not?-I
believe the reason is, that there is a great difficulty in having two
prices for your goods-I mean honestly.
9449. You think the people would complain?-Not only would the
people complain, but I am afraid your own conscience would cry
out sometimes.
9450. Why should your conscience cry out if you are really
equalizing the two classes of buyers?-The buyer who does not
pay until November has the advantage of having his money in
hand, and of getting an advance made to him on credit; whereas
the buyer who pays you in March or in April for the same goods
which the other man does not pay for until November, gives you
his money six or eight or ten months sooner, and you have the
advantage of having the money in your pocket, and you could
make of it, as the case may be: is not that so?-Yes. A discount
might be taken off if we could decide upon a certain percentage
to take off for cash; but I believe the reason we have never done
anything in that way is, that if you once begin to make an
alteration, there is a great difficulty in fixing your prices, and a
difficulty in sticking to an exact rate. Perhaps you will allow me
to illustrate what I mean. Suppose I go into a shop and ask for a
cloth jacket, and the jacket is brought down. I am well acquainted
with the price of these goods, but I have plenty of impudence, and
I beat down the price until the seller consents to give me the jacket
at 3s. less than he asked at first. Then my brother, who is a quiet
man, goes in and asks for jacket exactly the same. Perhaps he gets
five per cent. taken off, which would be 1s. 6d., and he pays cash
for it. That would be 1s. 6d. of an advantage to me, and I consider
that it would be unfair and dishonest to him.
9451. But you get out of that difficulty by raising the price a little
to everybody?-We do not. We just price our goods at what we
consider to be a living profit, and we do not sell them at less than
that to anybody.
9452. Are not your prices fixed, in the first instance, at such a
figure as you calculate would cover the risk of bad debts upon
your credit transactions, and also the loss of interest upon the
money?-I cannot say that they are. We try to make as few bad
debts as possible, and I cannot say that the prices are fixed with a
view to that at all.
9453. Are the goods invoiced to you at Greenbank from
Mossbank?-They are all invoiced from Mossbank.
9454. At the cost price, or at the price at which you are to sell
them?-At the retail price.
9455. Have you known many cases of fishermen leaving your
employment and going to other merchants?-No; as a general
rule, fishermen continue in our employment for a very long time.
No doubt there exceptions.
9456. I suppose there is a difficulty sometimes in man changing
because of its disarranging the boat's crew?-In some cases there
is.
9457. Do you know of any cases in which single men have come
to you from other employers within the last half-dozen years?-I
cannot speak for the last half-dozen years. I can only speak
particularly for two years.
9458. Within that time have you got many men coming to you
from other merchants?-There have been a few.
9459. Have these men generally been clear of debt to their former
employers when they came to you?-So far as I know, they have.
9460. They have not asked you to undertake, their debts, or to
advance them money with which to pay their debts to their former
employers?-No. I have no case of that kind in my mind at
present.
9461. Does any arrangement exist between you and any other
fish-merchant, to the effect that a man leaving the one merchant
and seeking employment with the other shall have his debt cleared
off by the new employer?-There is no such arrangement between
us and any other employer.
9462. Do you know of any case in which that has been done?-I
cannot say that I do. Such a thing might have occurred, but there
is no case of that sort which has come within my own knowledge.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, THOMAS WILLIAMSON, examined.
9463. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Seafield?-I am. I
have been there for a short time. I commenced with the fishing in
1871, and I commenced for myself there as a merchant on 20th
May 1870.
9464. Where had you been before?-I was shopman for one year
before to the man who had the place previously-Magnus Mouat.
9465. Before that where had you been?-In 1867 and 1868 I was
in Robert Mouat's shop at Coningsburgh as his shopman, but he
took charge of the shop chiefly himself. I was not quite two years
there.
9466. I understand the men in that neighbourhood were under
an obligation to fish to Mouat, who was the tacksman of the
property?-I cannot say about that. I did not know anything about
their private matters.
9467. Do you mean to say that you were shopman to Mouat for
two years and did not know that?-I did not know their private
affairs, whether they were bound or not. I saw the men fishing,
but I could not say whether they were under an obligation to fish
for him more than for any other one.
9468. Did you not know of any cases in which men were
threatened or ejected for not fishing for him, or for selling their
fish to other merchants?-I was not aware of that at the time I
was there.
9469. Were the men's accounts with Mouat settled annually in the
same way as they are in other places in Shetland?-Yes, during
the time I was there.
9470. Had you anything to do with settling these accounts?-No;
he settled with the men himself.
9471. Did you keep the books in which the goods taken from the
shop were entered?-Yes; the daybook.
9472. Do you remember anything about the prices charged
there?-They varied, just as they did at other places.
9473. Were you aware at the time that the prices charged in
Mouat's shop were much higher than those at other places?-
I cannot say that they were higher for a country shop.
9474. Were they dearer than are charged in this neighbourhood
now?-I cannot say that they were for the groceries; but indeed
they would require to have been dearer, because he had to take his
goods overland at a heavy expense from Lerwick. It was pretty
expensive keeping a horse and cart for that purpose, and taking his
goods down on a winter day. When he did not do that, he had
either to employ a sloop for himself, or a big six-oared boat.
9475. But you have to do that in many places in Shetland?-They
do that throughout the mainland, in Quendale and other places.
9476. Did the men about Coningsburgh ever complain to you of
the quality of the goods sold in Mouat's store?-Of course I might
have heard a man complain, just as parties will do when buying
goods. Some customers will always complain. They may perhaps
despise the thing, and yet at the same time they like very well to
take it, but they pretend not to want it in [Page 229] order to get it
a little reduced in price. I don't think the goods were any dearer or
any worse than in most country shops in Shetland, because they
came from the south country, and from the same men from whom
most country merchants in Shetland purchase.
9477. Did Mouat buy from a merchant in Aberdeen?-He got
most of his soft goods from Mr. D. L. Shirras there.
9478. Where did he get his meal and flour?-Sometimes from
Macduff in Banffshire, and sometimes from Tod Brothers,
Stockbridge.
9479. Who was his merchant at Macduff?-I forget; I think it was
Messrs. Laing. He had one cargo from them during the time I was
there. I think Mr. Adie, Voe, had some in the vessel at the same
time.
9480. Was the cargo landed at Coningsburgh?-Some of it, and
some at other places, just as the party got orders for it.
9481. Did the cargo belong to Mouat, or was it a joint concern?-I
cannot say.
9482. Where did he get his flour?-He did not get very much flour
during the time I was there, except for house use.
9483. Where did he get his tea and groceries?-From Mackintosh
& Co. Glasgow, and from Bremner & Grant, Aberdeen.
9484. Did you ever know of any of Mouat's men getting money at
the settlement?-Yes; those who had it to get got it, the year I was
there.
9485. Were they sometimes paid by receipts or lines?-I cannot
say how they were paid. The men, as they came out of the place
where they had been settling, spoke about being paid.
9486. But you don't know whether they got cash?-No; they might
have got a cheque on the bank. I only saw the entry in the ledger,
of cash being paid in full.
9487. Your department was merely to sell in the shop?-Yes; and
I was oftener travelling. I travelled a good deal buying up stock
for him.
9488. Where were your principal purchases of stock made?-In
winter they were chiefly at the Walls Martinmas sale.
9489. Was that in the neighbourhood of Coningsburgh?-No, it
was in the west side of Shetland; but Mouat would perhaps buy a
beast or two in the neighbourhood of Coningsburgh as he had
orders for them.
9490. How were these cattle settled for?-Those that I bought
were paid in money at the time. I cannot tell how he paid for those
he bought himself.
9491. Were these cattle sent out of the country?-Some of them
were, and others were re-sold in the country.
9492. Do you really think that upon the whole the stock of goods
in Mouat's shop was as fair in quality as is usual in Shetland?-I
could not say any other. The goods might have been lying for
some time, and I could not tell what strength was in them, but they
looked very well. They just looked like any goods that you would
see brought into a country shop.
9493. I understand you have taken Mrs. Budge's premises at
Seafield for curing and salting your fish?-Yes. Of course we
had an understanding when we took them, that we were to have
the men on equal terms with what they would get from another,
but there was no more agreement about it. There is scarcely any
man who could keep the premises there and carry on business in
them without the privilege of having the men to fish for him. It
would hardly have been fair to have made them fish for me unless
they were as well served as by fishing for another; but I told them
that I did not want any of them to fish for me unless they came
voluntarily.
9494. Do you mean that the premises are inconveniently situated
for such a business?-Of course. They lie so far inland that we
require to have a push like that.
9495. And in order to get men to deliver their fish there, it is
necessary that they should be under some sort of obligation?-
We thought that unless the men had something to do at the place,
it would not be worth keeping it. Of course you cannot very easily
force a business there, without a few men that you can depend
upon.
9496. Do you mean to force a business in the way of fish-curing,
or in the way of selling goods or provisions?-Of course it would
require a man with more capital than I have to force a business so
far inland.
9497. But which do you mean; the fish-curing business, or the
general business?-I mean the general business.
9498. I suppose the drapery and provision business depends very
much on the success of the fish-curing business?-Yes. There is
nothing else to depend upon. There are no works or anything like
that in the neighbourhood.
9499. Do the men who are employed by you in the fishing live
near your shop?-Yes.
9500. But you say that for fish-curing this is not a very convenient
place, because it is too far inland?-I say it is not convenient for
driving a business, unless you have some means to depend upon in
the fishing or such like. There are not many people round about
who could purchase goods over the counter, so that the business
cannot be carried on in that way.
9501. But do you suppose that in any part of Shetland a good
business over the counter could be carried on unless there were
fishermen employed by the merchants?-Yes. I know places in
Shetland where they do carry on a good business over the counter
without having fishermen. For instance, they could do so in Unst.
9502. Don't merchants who try to establish a business find it
exceedingly difficult to get on in the neighbourhood of a large
merchant who has a number of fishermen employed, unless they
have fishermen of their own?-No doubt but then there are some
places a good distance from these large fish-curers where they
could drive a very good business over the counter. Of course they
could not make a large business of it, because there is not a large
business to be done in Shetland.
9503. But they could make something if they were far enough
away from the large fish-curers?-Yes.
9504. Still at any place I suppose it is an advantage for a merchant
to be a fish-curer?-I don't know as to that. I cannot say much for
it this year. Last year was my first year at it, and I had two boats.
9505. Did you not make a good thing of your fishing last year?-
They did very well in the way of fishing, but I lost a good few
lines and I had to pay most in cash. I paid the men cash down, and
when they do not take their goods in return we make very little by
the fish.
9506. Did the men not run accounts with you as they would do
with another fish-curer?-No doubt some of them did, but some
of them did not.
9507. Had they all cash to receive at the end of the year?-Yes.
9508. Was there not one of them who was in debt to you at the
settlement?-Not one. The lowest had about £6 to get.
9509. Then you would not make so much of them as some
merchants do?-I don't know as to that. I don't expect that I
would make anything.
9510. Did you not expect to drive a fair business at Seafield?-
Hardly, upon that footing.
9511. Are you not satisfied with your first year's trial here?-
Sometimes we must be doing, although we are not satisfied with
everything that comes across us. Sometimes we must just endure
it, and hope for better success in another year.
9512. How do you account for your shop business not being larger
last year?-The men were in pretty good circumstances, and
perhaps they found that they could get their things a little cheaper
in Lerwick, and they ran accounts there. Of course I could not sell
so cheap as they do in Lerwick, because I was buying most of my
goods there. I got part of my goods from the south, and part from
Mr. Leask.
9513. Did you hear Mr. Laurence Williamson's evidence?-Yes.
9514. Do you make the same bargain with your fishermen about
boats and lines and other things as he described?-The captain of
the boat got something extra from me.
[Page 230]
9515. But did you give as much off the boat hire as a premium to
the men?-No; but of course it came to the same thing. I got £4
for the boat and lines. Laurence Williamson charged £6, and of
course I charged £6 too, but I gave the lines free to the captain of
the boat, and £1, 6s., which is equal to £2.
9516. Do any of the men in your experience buy their boats and
lines?-They do in other places but not on this island, so far as I
am aware.
9517. And that is always a debt against a boat's crew at starting?-
Yes. In Dunrossness the crew buy their boat and lines, and I
believe in Whalsay too.
9518. Have you engaged your boats for next year?-Of course it
was understood when I bought my new boats last year, that the
men would continue to fish for me; and this year they have not
said anything against continuing to fish.
9519. Therefore you will have the same two boats' crews of Mrs.
Budge's tenants?-I hope so.
9520. It was an understanding between you and Mr. Sievwright
when you took the premises that these men were to fish for you?-
Yes.
9521. Was that understanding put into writing?-No.
9522. Have you any lease of the premises?-No. I have them
taken from year to year.
9523. But it was understood in conversation between you and Mr.
Sievwright that the men should fish for you?-Yes, that the men
should fish on the same terms to me as they would to another
person; but still I don't want any of the men who do not come to
me voluntarily.
9524. Still you had no objection to the landlord bidding them fish
for you?-None whatever.
9525. Were you aware of the letter being written which has been
produced to-day?-Yes. I did not see it before it was sent, but I
saw it in the hands of the man who produced it.
9526. Did you know it was to be written?-No. I did not know
whether Mr. Sievwright was to ask them or to write to them.
9527. But it was quite understood between you and Mr. Sievwright
that there was such an arrangement?-Yes, of course I spoke to
Mr. Sievwright about it.
9528. And your rent was fixed on that footing?-No; my rent was
fixed before that matter was spoken of. I spoke to Mrs. Budge first
about it, and she advised me to try it, and said she thought the men
would have no objection to fish for me more than to any other
party.
9529. Had the premises been unlet for some time?-Yes.
9530. Magnus Mouat had them for two years before you?-Yes.
9531. Had they been unlet before that?-Yes, they were never let
before.
9532. Why did Mouat leave?-He did not do very much in the
place. He is in Unst now.
9533. Would you pay the same rent for your premises if that
understanding did not exist about the men fishing for you?-No, I
would not keep them at all.
9534. Why?-Because I could have nothing to do in them. I
would have nobody buying anything from me.
9535. And you would have no men to fish for you?-No.
9536. Is that because you cannot get free men to fish for you, or is
it because they prefer to fish for the big fish-curers?-When the
men are engaged to the big fish-curers, if I were to go and ask
them to come and fish for me then I would require to give them a
better bargain than they have with the merchants by whom they are
employed now, and if I were to do that it would take away all the
profit I would have on the fish, and I would have to work for
nothing. Therefore I would be as well to want them.
9537. How do you fix the current price at the end of the year?-
That is a thing I am hardly able to tell.
9538. How did you manage to ascertain it last year?-My bargain
with the men was to give them the current price of the country,
and accordingly I did so. I ascertained what the big fish-curers
were giving, and I regulated my price by theirs.
9539. You did not settle until you ascertained what price they were
getting?-No, I settled just at the general time.
9540. But after you had found out what the large fish-curers were
getting?-Yes.
9541. Did you sell to Mr. Leask?-Yes.
9542. Have you any difficulty in getting men employed by the
large fish-curers because they are bound to them too?-No, it
is not exactly that; but I have not so much money as these
fish-curers, and if the men make two or three small fishings, the
curers can help them with money or goods, while I could not
afford to do that.
9543. You have not the means of carrying them through?-Of
course I have not. Men who have been long in business and who
have plenty of capital can manage to do the thing in different
ways; and small shops like mine need not try to fight against the
great.
9544. It was only the balances you paid in cash this year?-Yes;
but some of the men had £7 or £8 before settlement time came,
and some had before they went to the fishing at all.
9545. Then their accounts at the shop would be rather small on the
whole: what would you say was about the average?-They ran
from 5s. to £9.
9546. Did they get that in goods?-They could take it either in
cash or in goods. When they did not want to take the goods, they
got cash if I had it; and if I did not have it at the time, they had just
to wait until I could make some shift to get it for them.
9547. Do you buy hosiery?-Very little. If I can get a little good
worsted-yarn, that is all I buy.
9548. Who do you sell the yarn to?-All I have done in that is a
mere trifle, as I have not been long in the business; but perhaps I
take a parcel to Lerwick, and hawk it through the shops, and get
goods in exchange which I want for my own business.
9549. Is it understood that you are to take the price out in
goods?-Yes. Of course I may meet with a private individual
who may buy a few good cuts of worsted from me for cash.
9550. Is the worsted you get generally of good quality?-It is
generally thick worsted, worth 2d. or 3d. a cut.
9551. That is not the very finest Shetland worsted?-No. There is
some of it as high as 6d. a cut.
9552. Do the merchants re-sell the worsted at the same price or do
they charge a profit upon it?-I cannot say much about that; only I
know that all that worsted and hosiery is a bad spec. to meddle
with. If it lies any time it gets spoiled, and it is very difficult to get
a market even for the best quality of it in the south.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GILBERT GILBERTSON, examined.
9553. You are a fisherman and tenant at Harra, Mid Yell?-Yes.
9554. Is that on the Gossaburgh estate?-No, it is on Mr. Hay's
own property.
9555. Are you free to fish for anybody you like?-I have been so
in time past, and I am so now, so far as I know.
9556. Have you ever fished for any person except Hay & Co.?-
Yes. I fished five years for Mr. Sandison at Cullivoe, two for Mr.
Henderson, and one for Mr. Williamson at Ulsta.
9557. Where do you get your supplies?-Generally from the
merchant for whom I am fishing. We don't have means to get
them anywhere else.
9558. Are you generally a little bit in arrear end of the year?-No;
I always manage to have something over to help to pay the land
rent.
[Page 231]
9559. Do you pay your rent to Hay & Co.?-Yes, to the man
whom they send up to make the settlement. They send a man
every year to West Sandwick.
9560. Are you fishing for them just now?-No; the last one I
fished for was Mr. Williamson. I have made no arrangement
for the present year.
9561. Where are you getting your supplies for the incoming
year?-We are shifting along the best way we can. We have
some corn and potatoes of our own.
9562. Is not the time past for making up the boats' crews?-No;
sometimes it is done before now, but sometimes it is as late as the
month of April.
9563. Are there many men near you who have not made any
arrangement for this year?-There are a good few, principally
those who fished along with me last year.
9564. Then I suppose you are quite at liberty to go and fish for
anybody you please?-So far as I know, I am.
9565. Have you no account running anywhere just now?-No.
9566. Are you not in debt to anybody?-I may be about 1s. or 2s.
in debt at the shop at Linkshouse, but that is all.
9567. If you engage to fish for Mr. Leask at Ulsta, will you open
an account at his shop at once?-I should like to be as long as
possible in opening an account.
9568. But I suppose you won't get through the summer without
doing so?-No. Of course I could not get through the summer
without a little supplies.
9569. Do you think it would be an advantage to you if you could
get your fish paid earlier in the season?-It would be an advantage
in some respects. If I was not fishing for the proprietor, and if
he wanted his rent at Martinmas and I did not settle with the
fishcurer, then the proprietor might come upon me for the rent
before I had money to pay him, and put me to expenses for that.
9570. Don't the proprietors generally wait for your rent till after
the settlement?-In some cases they do, but not always.
9571. Have you known cases where they would not wait until after
settlement?-I have not known any but in some cases they would
like to have the money as soon as it is due.
9572. Have you known any case in which the fishcurer would not
advance money for the rent when the proprietor was needing it?-I
never knew that.
9573. Does the fish-curer generally advance you money for that
purpose?-Yes, if there is money coming to me at the settlement.
9574. Have you known a fish-curer giving a line to the proprietor
for the rent?-Yes. I have got an order from one of our curers to
the proprietor himself. I have got an order from Mr. Henderson to
Messrs. Hay, and it was accepted the same as cash. That was last
year; the order was for about £5. It was a stamped order on the
bank. It was only for part of my rent, and I had to shift for the rest
somewhere else.
9575. Was it a cheque for the whole balance due to you?-Yes.
9576. Did you get it at settling time?-I got it at the time
when Messrs. Hay settled, but I did not get an account from Mr.
Henderson until after that.
9577. Then there was more due to you by Mr. Henderson than
that?-A trifle. He took care to keep on the right side.
9578. Then you think it would not be of much difference to you to
have an earlier payment?-I don't know. It might suit a temperate
man very well who could manage his own affairs; but for the man
who required all his pence, I don't think it would suit very well.
9579. Don't you think it would be better if you were to be paid so
much, perhaps every week or every month, during the course of
the fishing, and then to be paid the balance according to the actual
price at the end of the season?-I think that would be a very good
plan, so far as I can see. It would keep the men from turning into
debt, and it would enable them to go to the best market; whereas
we who have no money are compelled to take our supplies from
the fish-curer.
9580. Do you think that is often a loss to you?-I am certain it is,
because his prices must be a little higher in consequence.
9581. Have you felt that yourself?-I felt it last year.
9582. Then anything would be an improvement which would
enable you to keep out of debt and deal where you pleased?-Yes;
if we had the means of dealing where we pleased, then we would
be enabled to go to the best market.
9583. Have you compared the goods you have got from the
merchants for whom you were fishing with those you could get
elsewhere?-Yes. Last summer we were paying 1s. 3d. per peck
for the flour which we were getting from Mr. Williamson at Ulsta,
and there was as good flour in Messrs. Hay's at Feideland at 1s.
1d.
9584. Have you ever made any other comparison of that kind?-
No. Sometimes when we found the tea or sugar to be bad, we
would try where we could get it best; but we could not run an
account at these places, in case we might not be able to pay it
from our fishing.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, HUGH HUGHSON, examined.
9585. You are a merchant at Gossaburgh?-Yes.
9586. Do you cure fish?-A few.
9587. How many boats had you last year?-I had no boats at all.
I deal altogether in ready money. I pay ready cash for all that is
brought to me, but I only do in that way on a small scale. I have
no bondmen, and I wish for no bondmen.
9588. Do you pay for the fish as they are delivered?-Yes; cash
down.
9589. Do you purchase generally from men who are fishing
promiscuously along the coast?-Yes.
9590. Do you buy from men who are engaged to other
merchants?-No. There are it few small boats that fish along
the shore, and when they come along the shore with their fish
I buy them.
9591. How do you fix the price of the green fish which you buy
from them?-I fix it from the merchants' price. Supposing I can
get £20 in cash for dry fish, I consider that I can give about 7s. per
cwt. for the same fish green, calculating 21/4 of green to 1 cwt. of
dry.
9592. Do you think that kind of business might be carried on on a
large scale?-I think it could; and am sure it would be much better
for the men. I have been twelve years in the country, and I have
found that by paying ready money I have got more custom.
9593. Have you no credit transactions at all?-Yes. I try to oblige
people at times when they want goods.
9594. But you have no security in the shape of fish which you are
to receive?-No.
9595. In fact you have no security at all except their honesty?-
No. I now produce my fish-book, which contains entries of the
fish as they are landed, and the prices which I pay for them.
9596. Do you find that the existence of long credits prevents you
from driving as large a business as you might otherwise do?-The
islands have groaned under the system of long credits for many
years.
9597. But do you find that it interferes with your driving a larger
business?-I have no command over men, and I do not wish to
have, but I always find that when there is any money going I get
my fair share of it; and I think if every one did the same, they
would get a fair proportion of business.
9598. If the men could not get credit from the larger fish-curers, do
you think they would be ready to deliver their fish to you for ready
money at the current price?-I think they would. I believe I would
be able to [Page 232] buy £100 worth for every £20 worth I buy
now, if the men could not get supplies on credit elsewhere.
9599. Do you think the introduction of a cash system of that kind
would greatly injure the men, and make them unable to get
through the winter?-I think the introduction of a cash system
into the islands would not do very well for the poor men, because
they must often have £2 or £3 of supplies from the curers before
they can begin work. What they complain of is, that the merchants
charge them a little as commission upon the money which they pay
for the goods.
9600. But instead of getting supplies as they do now, they would
be paid for their fish every time they delivered them, and then they
could purchase goods as they pleased with the cash?-Yes; but
there are many men at present who have no means, and who must
come to me and ask me for a few pounds at a time with which to
pay their rents. If I refuse them that assistance they could not carry
through at all. They could not wait until they got money from
their fishing; they would become paupers; and therefore they
require advances.
9601. Do you buy any fish in winter and spring?-Yes; I buy a
good few in winter when I can get them.
9602. But not enough to keep a man going with his family?-No.
I made some money in Australia, and that is what keeps me going.
9603. But the men do not catch enough fish in winter and spring to
keep their wives and families?-No. There are sometimes weeks
when they can get none at all, the weather is often so stormy.
9604. If you have been in Australia, you know that there are
storms elsewhere as well as here?-In Scotland they fish along
the coast, but they have better boats and there are vessels always
passing, while here there are currents from the Gulf Stream which
would frighten any man.
9605. You think they have not so good boats here?-They have
not, but they work them wonderfully, and they sometimes frighten
me when I come across them.
9606. Have you any idea why it is that these men come to you for
credit instead of going to the merchants to whom they sell their
fish?-Of course they cannot all deal in one place.
9607. But would they not get their credit much easier from the
merchant who is to receive their fish?-They might get it from
him, but perhaps they might have the same reason that the man
had when he was courting; one man might like me whilst others
might not. They might take fancies of that kind.
9608. Do you sell your goods at a lower price than the large
merchants?-I cannot say I do. I sell as low as I can, and if I
was not selling reasonably low I could not carry on at all.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, GEORGE WILLIAMSON examined.
9609. You are a fisherman at Mid Yell?-Yes. I go to the whaling
and sealing.
9610. You hold a bit of land here?-Yes.
9611. Do you also go to the ling fishing?-Yes, when I am at
home any time; but I generally go to the whaling.
9612. Do you go to Lerwick for an engagement?-Yes. I
generally engage through Messrs. Hay.
9613. Do you get your month's wages in advance?-Yes; it is paid
down in cash at the Custom House.
9614. You also get an allotment note?-Yes. I leave it with
Messrs. Hay, and then they supply my family with what they
require.
9615. Does your wife live at Mid Yell when you are away?-Yes.
9616. How does she get her supplies from Lerwick?-She sends
an order down to them, and they send her up what she requires by
the steamer.
9617. Is that the only account you keep?-That the only account I
keep with them; but I keep some accounts with other men.
9618. Do you keep an account with the merchant for whom you go
to the ling fishing afterwards?-Yes.
9619. When you come home from Greenland you settle with
Messrs. Hay at the Custom House?-Yes, as soon as I come home.
9620. You did not use to do that formerly?-No; we always used
to settle in the office.
9621. When you settled in the office, the amount of your account
was deducted from what you were to get?-Yes; but what money
we had to get was paid down to us in cash.
9622. But now you get all your money except what you have got in
the ship, and the first month's advance?-Yes.
9623. And with the balance you walk down to Hay & Co.'s office
and pay off their account?-Yes.
9624. I suppose you just go down with the clerk who has been
along with you at the Custom House?-Yes.
9625. Do you always pay off their account on the same day that
you are settled with?-Yes; but it only two years since we began
to be paid in that way.
9626. Have you been at the whale fishing every year for some time
back?-I have been eleven voyages at it but from 1852 I have been
in the south as well as at Greenland, and I have been at the ling
fishing too, and all sorts of trades.
9627. When is your last payment of oil-money generally settled
for?-When the oil has been boiled at Dundee or Peterhead, and
they know how much there is of it, the money is sent on to
Lerwick. If we are there to receive it we will get it as soon as it
comes and if not, it will lie until we come.
9628. Do you get it at the Custom House or Messrs. Hay's
office?-If we like, we get it at the Custom House; but this year
I would not go there and I got it at the office. It was at night, and
we could not get access to the Custom House; but as I wanted to
get clear. I was just paid at the office.
9629. Is your first payment of wages and oil-money after you
come home generally made before you leave Lerwick and come
to Yell?-It is now. They are very strict about that. They like
you to settle up before you leave the town.
9630. What amount of cash do you generally get as the first
payment on a Greenland voyage?-It depends on what kind of
voyage we make. Sometimes we have very little to get. Last year
I had somewhere about £10 or £12 to get for wages and the first
payment of oil-money. I had taken £2, 5s. of out-takes from
Messrs. Hay besides my first month's advance. That was for
supplies to my family at home while I was away. I was only
absent for six weeks.
9631. What ship were you in?-The 'Labrador' of London. We
made a good voyage.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, DANIEL MORE, examined.
9632. You are a fisherman and tenant at Cunningster?-I am a
fisherman, but not a tenant. I have got a house of my own.
9633. How long have you been there?-About two months-since
Martinmas. I was at Basta before, and at Colvister, and at Basta
before that.
9634. Why have you changed so often? Could you not get a bit of
ground to sit upon?-I was twenty-two years at first in Basta, and
then I lost my health, and I began some little business in groceries.
The landlord of the ground was Mr. George Hoseason, but the
tacksman was his half-brother, Mr. Hoseason of Mossbank. He
thought I was doing too well in my grocery business, and taking
away too much from their shop, and he put me away from there.
[Page 233]
9635. How did you know that he put you away for that reason?-
Because they told me that.
9636. How long is it since that occurred?-About twelve years
ago.
9637. Where did you go next?-To Colvister, where I was
under Mr. William Henderson of Gloup, brother of Mr. George
Henderson of Burravoe. I had a small shop there.
9638. Why did you leave that?-I left because I was not a
fisherman. Mr. Henderson wanted me to go to the fishing; but
as I would not he got another in my place, and thought he would
make better of it.
9639. Is it usual for a proprietor to turn away a man who does not
fish?-Yes. I paid £1 more than every man who fished every year
since I left the fishing, except to Mr. Hoseason of Basta.
9640. Did you pay that to Mr. Henderson while you were at
Colvister?-Yes.
9641. How long were you there?-Eight years.
9642. Did you pay £8 of additional rent to him during that time?-
Yes. The other tenants paid £4 for the same amount of land that I
paid £5 for.
9643. Did he tell you that that was because you did not fish?-
Yes.
9644. Did he tell you that when you took the ground?-No; he did
not say very much about it at that time.
9645. But he told you afterwards that you must pay £1 a year more
if you did not fish?-Yes.
9646. Why did you leave?-I did not leave until he warned me.
9647. Why did he warn you?-Because he wanted a skipper for a
boat.
9648. Where have you been since?-I was on Basta for three
years.
9649. Where are you now?-On Major Cameron's property, under
Mr. Walker. I have no shop there; but I have a house and a bit of
ground, which I bought with money I had saved. I am not doing
anything at present.
9650. Have you known many men who have been turned out of
their holdings because they did not fish?-I have known a few in
Yell. The proprietors of the land, if they did not fish for them,
would turn them out.
9651. Is that a common understanding among the people?-Yes.
9659. Is there anything else you want to say about it?-Nothing
particular, but that I know I have been harshly handled because
they thought I made a living by selling some groceries and one
thing and another. They did not like it very well, and in that way
they turned me out of both places.
Mid Yell, January 17, 1872, JOHN S. HOUSTON, examined.
9653. You are parochial schoolmaster of North Yell?-I am.
9654. You have had considerable experience in the management
of property?-Yes, and in dividing runrig lands.
9655. How long have you been in the country?-Between 15 and
16 years.
9656. Have you had experience as to the relations existing
between proprietors of land and fish-merchants in Shetland?-
A little.
9657. Would you explain the nature of the arrangements that
have been made in former times, and which are now made,
by which the rent of the proprietor is paid through or by the
fish-merchant?-When I came to Shetland, Major Cameron's
property in Yell was let to Mr. Sandison as tacksman; but when
the Major came from India, the lease had expired, and he
appointed me to take charge of his property. Frequently at rent
time the parties had not received their money for fish, and as a
necessary consequence they got lines from their curer, the sums in
which were placed to their credit by Major Cameron. The sum of
these lines when all was over was sent to the fish-curer, the party
who gave the lines, and a cheque on the bank was given for them.
9658. Was that merely a practice resorted to for the convenience
of the fishermen and the proprietor, or was there an understanding
with the fish-curer that he should make these advances?-It was a
convenience for all parties.
9659. You are not aware that there was any understanding between
the fish-curer and the proprietor to that effect?-There was an
understanding between Major Cameron and Mr. Sandison.
9660. Was Mr. Sandison the fish-curer you have referred to?-
Yes, Sandison Brothers. There was an understanding that any of
Major Cameron's tenants who were what might be called reckless
or careless, should not be allowed to overdraw their earnings, but
that something should be left for their rent.
9661. Was Mr. Sandison a tenant of Major Cameron's in his
fishcuring premises?-Yes.
9662. Were these lines always in the same form?-Generally they
were the same. I have plenty of them at home.*
9663. Are you aware of a similar practice having existed on any
other estate?-I believe it has existed but I cannot speak so
positively about it on other estates. I may say that similar lines
have also been given to Major Cameron and myself from another
curer in North Yell, Mr. William Pole, jun. before he became a
partner of the Mossbank firm.
9664. Had he premises from Major Cameron also?-No; he had
his father's premises. With regard to these lines, I may state that,
although there was no understanding on the subject, Major
Cameron made it a practice not to come to his tenants asking for
their rents until he was pretty sure that everything was nearly
cut-and-dry for him.
9665. Do you think it is a general practice in Shetland for the
landlord to fix his rent day so as to be convenient for the
fishermen?-I think it is. They fix it after settlement. Mr.
Walker, the first year he was factor for Major Cameron, came
nearly close to his time, 11th November, but since then he has
not done so.
9666. You are not aware whether that practice of giving lines
exists in Yell now?-It does exist. I myself have paid rents by
orders for cattle bought from Major Cameron's tenants.
9667. Have you had much intercourse with the fishermen in your
district of the country?-Yes; I often hear their conversations.
9668. Do you know generally the way in which business is
conducted in the fish trade?-I think I do.
9669. Are you aware that much complaint exists with regard to the
way in which the current price for fish is fixed at the end of the
season?-The fishermen, as a general rule always complain.
9670. What are the grounds of their complaint?-I think the
reason why they complain is, that they believe the curers never
give them so large a price as they should do. There is a sort of
jealousy abroad amongst all the fishermen, which perhaps
originated in formerdays, but which is still rankling in their
bosoms.
9671. A jealousy of whom?-A jealousy of the fish-curers, that
they don't give them fair play.
9672. Have you seen any cases where you thought they did not get
fair play?-Not for some time past.
9673. Are you able to form an opinion upon the question whether
the fishermen are justified in complaining of the manner in which
the current price is fixed?-I think, as a general rule, they are not.
I know practically, from curers books that I had access to, that the
current price is fairly fixed.
9674. Have you been employed as an [Page 234] accountant?-
No; but I have had confidence placed in me, and I have seen their
books.
9675. Have you any means of knowing whether there are more
prices than one for the fish, according to the market to which they
are sent?-I am aware that each curer does not receive the same
price. There are exceptions to the rule. Some send their fish
direct to the foreign market, and some sell to a home firm, who
require something for their risk and trouble.
9676. Do you think the present system of distant payments for the
fish could be altered, and a better one introduced?-I don't well
see how it could be altered for the benefit of the fishermen.
9677. Is that on account of the bad seasons which occur
occasionally?-Not altogether on account of the bad season,
but it suits them better. Many of them prefer to leave their
money with their curer until they require it for their rents.
9678. They prefer him to act as their banker?-Exactly.
9679. Is it not the case that many fishermen who ask advances
from their curers before the fishing season begins, or during its
course, are really capitalists with considerable sums in the
bank?-I am not aware of any case of that kind, but I know plenty
of fishermen who have money in the bank. I should say that the
system would perhaps be more healthy if the fishermen were paid
when the fishing was over. That would remove many grievances
now complained of.
9680. Do you think they should be paid in July or August?-In the
end of August.
9681. But if they were paid then they might get a lower price than
the fish-merchants eventually got?-They would have to be paid at
a rate by which the curer would be certain to be safe as his fish
had not gone to market, and they did not know what they would
realize; but the same holds good on the coast of Scotland in the
herring fishing.
9682. Would the fishermen, so far as you know them, be content
with a system of that sort?-I cannot say; I rather think not.
9683. Do you think they would like to have the chance of a larger
price?-They would engage just now for the next season if they
were satisfied that they would realize 1s. more than the market
would afford them at Martinmas.
9684. But they would not engage otherwise?-No.
9685. Do you think they would endeavour to get quit of such a
bargain if the price at Martinmas should turn out to be higher than
what they had agreed for the commencement of the season?-
Attempts are made of that nature in their dealings in the selling of
cattle.
9686. Are cattle sometimes sold according to a current price at a
later period?-Cattle are sometimes bought during the spring. If
not bought then, they are sold by auction at fixed sales in May, and
in the mainland they have a Martinmas sale for fat cattle.
9687. But they are sometimes sold before these sales?-They are
sold in spring to parties going through the district seeking cattle to
buy; and during the last season the prices were so very high at the
spring sales, that I know parties who had sold their cattle before,
and then came back upon the purchaser asking him for the
currency of the sale, although their animals had been sold months
before.
9688. Did they get what they asked?-In one case they did.
9689. Was that from a proprietor?-No.
9690. Does the practice of marking the horns of cattle exist in
Yell?-It does.
9691. In what circumstances is that done?-If a tenant becomes
indebted to me and cannot pay me in cash, he offers me one of his
cattle and to make sure of it I cut the initials of my name on its
horns.
9692. Are you assuming that you are the landlord?-It does not
matter whether I am the landlord or not. I may be a merchant, and
it is the merchants who do it; the landlord does not require to do it,
because the hypothec protects him.
9693. But the merchant takes his chance of the landlord's
hypothec interfering with him?-Yes.
9694. If a merchant marks a beast in that way, is it generally
exposed at the next periodical sale?-Sometimes it is, but
sometimes it is taken away at a price fixed upon at the time.
If not, it is sold, and the merchant gets his money.
9695. Do you think the debtor in that case has perfect freedom in
fixing the price?-Both parties fix it.
9696. But do you think the debtor is under no constraint?-None.
Arbitration would decide it.
9697. Arbitration might decide it, but is arbitration resorted to?-
Sometimes. A person understood to be qualified puts a value upon
the cattle, or the currency at which such animals are selling at that
time is taken.
9698. It has been alleged that when merchants got people deeply
in debt they mark their cattle, and they can take them at any price
they choose: is that so?-I have never seen a case of that kind.
Such a practice may have existed 20 or 30 years ago, but I am
entirely ignorant of it. I may further state something which was
not exactly implied in your questions, but which in the south is
generally misunderstood. As a general rule, the fishermen get
one-third of the selling price of the fish. Fish dry in 5-9ths-that is
21/4 cwt. of green fish make 1 cwt. dry, fit for the market,-and it
is understood that the curer pays one-third; but when the price may
be £20 and upwards, he pays more than one-third of the selling
prices. When the price is £14 or £15 he can only afford to pay
one-third, the expenses being the same per ton for curing at the
high price as at the low price. Suppose he sells his fish at £20 per
ton, he pays his fishermen £7; 21/4 times 7 are £15, 15s. The curing
of that ton of fish costs him £2, 10s., that is £18, 5s., leaving him
£1, 15s. to pay for his salt, to transport them to his store, and ship
them on board a vessel, and to pay their freight to Leith. Hence it
follows that the fish-curer has very little profit indeed.
9699. Upon what data is that conclusion of yours rounded?-Upon
facts which I know with regard to the prices paid by curers.
9700. Do you know the price of the salt and the expenses of
curing, through the curers themselves?-The fixed price for
curing has always been 50s.
9701. That is the price which they charge?-That is the price
which a party would charge a curer for curing his fish.
9702. That would be for salting and curing?-They would salt
them, but the salt belongs to the curer.
9703. But the price of the salt is included in the 50s.?-No. I have
my information from a curer of long standing, but who is not now
in the trade.
9704. Have you any information to give with regard to the
obligations of fishermen upon other estates in Shetland to fish
for the landlords?-I have had a good deal to do with the property
of Simbister, on which there were no tenants bound to fish, except
those belonging to the Coningsburgh district, who were under tack
to Mouat. Their leases bound them to do so; but, on the expiry of
that lease, Mr. Bruce did not intend to let any of his lands again
after that fashion. To my knowledge he refused to let them to a
party who would have been a good tenant.
9705. Is there any other point falling within this inquiry upon
which you are prepared to make any statement?-The only other
statement I should wish to make would be a sort of qualification as
to why the fishermen are generally dissatisfied with the prices they
get. It is understood that they get one-third, or a little more when
the prices are high, and if that is the understanding they argue that
they ought to see the bills of sale. They say, 'Why not lay down to
us when you settle, the document according to which you have
sold your fish; we don't know what you have sold them at, we only
have that from hearsay.' That is the only reason why I think the
fishermen actually complain.
9706. Do you see any reason why they should not see the bills of
sale?-I think they are entitled to see them.
[Page 235]
9707. Are they not really partners with the curer?-They are; for
they are risking the market as well as the curer.
9708. Have you read the evidence that was given before this
Commission in Edinburgh?-I have; and the only observation I
would make upon it is, that I am not a believer in it generally.
Facts are stated as existing many years ago, but which are not
applicable to the present day, as a general rule, throughout
Shetland.
9709. Do you think the condition of Shetland has improved during
the sixteen years you have lived in it?-Yes; especially during the
last five, and more especially during the last three years. The
prices of cattle have been so high that a tenant could pay his rent at
once with an animal, when he could not do that before. The price
of fish has also improved.
9710. These, however, may be transient facts?-They may be.
9711. Prices may fall?-They may.
9712. Is there any permanent cause operating to improve the
condition of Shetland?-There is more direct communication with
the south. Purchasers come into it now and buy directly, instead of
buying through natives resident here acting as their agents, and
who perhaps might charge something extra for their own trouble,
and that had to come off the people. There is one part of Mr.
Walker's evidence which I consider to be perfectly true, where he
referred to the giving of credit to children or almost children. I
believe that to be an injurious practice, because children are
initiated into the system of getting credit when they are eleven or
twelve years old, and it never ceases with them unless they leave
home. It may in certain cases cease; but as a general rule it does
not, and I think it is like learning them to smoke tobacco, or
anything of that sort.
9713. Is there any other point in Mr. Walker's evidence, or the
evidence given in Edinburgh, which you consider to be true?-The
evidence given in Edinburgh contained a great many facts highly
coloured, and I may add somewhat exaggerated.
9714. Do you think the present state of the hosiery trade is a
wholesome one?-No. I consider the hosiery trade, as a whole,
to be a morally unhealthy one as it present exists.
9715. Is that because of the facilities which offers for the younger
members of the family to get into debt?-It is not that. I speak
particularly of Yell, where yarn is produced; the merchants have to
lay a higher price on their goods when they give them for yarn than
they would do for cash, or for any other article brought to them
which was worth its value in cash.
9716. Do they put a higher price upon the goods which they sell
for yarn?-They must do it.
9717. Is not that high price charged in all other sales as well as in
sales which they make for yarn?-No; the country merchants here
have two prices.
9718. You heard the evidence of Mr. Pole to-day, in which he said
they had only one price for all their goods?-Yes. Mr. Pole seems
to have adopted a new system. I know they had two prices some
time ago.
9719. You are aware that two prices did exist there?-Yes, and in
many other places.
9720. You believe that to be unwholesome?-I do.
9721. Does it create a bad feeling towards the merchant?-I think
the practice is morally wrong. To meet these things, many females
come, not with 100 threads in each cut, but with from 90 down to
80, obliging the merchant to count the yarn which he buys from
certain parties in whom he has not implicit confidence.
9722. Of course that encourages deception?-Yes. With regard to
the trade in yarn, the merchant buys it according to its quality. If
he is to sell it in Lerwick, he employs a party for the purpose, who
receives a percentage for selling it. The merchant has also to pay
freight, and he has to lay these things upon his goods.
9723. Are you aware that in Lerwick the practice of the merchants
is not to sell worsted at all, but merely to purchase what they want
for their own use?-I am not aware of that. I know there are
merchants in Lerwick who do sell worsted, but they could scarcely
be called <bona fide> hosiery merchants. They are generally
people who sell for some one in the country, sometimes as a
favour, and sometimes for commission.
9724. These are not hosiery shops?-No; they are sometimes
grocers.
9725. I fancy that a party selling yarn may more readily take it to a
grocer if she wants provisions rather than dry goods, as she will
not get provisions in Lerwick from the merchants?-The grocer
won't buy it unless he requires it for family use, but he will take it
from a merchant as a favour, and sell it for him.
9726. But I have been informed by many merchants in Lerwick
that they always purchase Shetland worsted for money; and as they
require all they can get and more for their own use, they do not sell
it again at all; so that, according to that information, any person
going from Yell to Lerwick and selling worsted, could get the
highest cash price for it from one of the hosiery merchants: is that
not consistent with your knowledge of the matter?-I am aware
that cash has been given. I have known a firm that dealt with a
Lerwick hosiery merchant to a very large extent, and perhaps
received £90 in cash for hosiery and yarn in one season. That,
however, I looked upon as an exception.
9727. You heard the evidence of William Stewart with regard to
Whalsay?-Yes.
9728. You were employed by the late Mr. Bruce to divide the
toons there?-Yes. He wished to abolish the run-rig system, and
to place his tenants on a money-paying system-to fish for whom
they chose, and to pay him a rent. I was employed to make the
division, and I divided every toon in the island, except one.
9729. At that time did you find that the system which Stewart
described was either prevailing, or had been prevailing shortly
before?-It was just dying out.**
[Page 236]
9730. Does any other person wish to be examined, or to make any
statement? [No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until
further notice.
*The witness afterwards forwarded a number of these lines. They
were in similar terms to the following:-
'CULLIVOE, 8<th Dec>. 1864.
'£7, 0s. 7d.
'Mr. HOUSTON,-Please credit A.B. in rent account the sum
of seven pounds and sevenpence, and charge to account of
' SANDISON BROTHERS.'
**Mr. Houston afterwards submitted the following remarks by
way of supplement to his evidence;-The collecting of rents and
<arrears> of long standing, and the dividing and renting of farms,
and other unavoidable accompaniments, placed me as a temporary
link between landlord and tenant, and tended to give me a
knowledge of Shetland affairs in general, as existing between
landlord and tenant, between fish-curer and fishermen, and
between merchant and customer. Although the dividing and
letting of farms may not be considered relevant to the present
inquiry into the truck system, I hold a <decidedly opposite
opinion>. No doubt poverty is the foundation upon which the
truck system has been reared, and may justly be called its <foster>
parent; and the origin may be traced, very clearly too, to the
subdividing of farms, it being the interest of the landlord-curer to
accommodate as many fishermen as possible. In many districts,
and on small properties where the landlord is storekeeper and
curer, that system is still upheld, and <fostered> with pious care;
while on many of the larger properties the proprietors are
endeavouring to abolish it. The islands being over-populated, and
the farms so insignificantly small, it follows as a result that the
inhabitants have to depend on external aid, and throw themselves,
although reluctantly it may be, into the arms of a system which,
however honestly conducted, has a tendency to hamper their
movements, to bereave them of independence, and to plunge
parents and their children into debt, out of which they may never
be able to extricate themselves. There is an antidote, but its
application would require to be a work of <time>.
<Fishcurer and Fishermen>.
In my evidence I stated that at present I considered fishermen
were generally well treated, and received as high a price as the
curer could well afford; but at same time I <do not> consider the
curer is acting judiciously. Under the present arrangement of
prices, I can only view the curer and his fishermen in the light of a
joint-stock company. The curer supplies boats and lines directly
or indirectly. The fishermen give their labour and risk their lives,
and when the summer fishing closes, the part the fishermen play in
the speculation terminates. The curer prepares the fish for the
market, disposes of them, and receives the cash. As the price to be
paid to the fishermen is regulated by the market price, I consider it
the bounden duty of the curer to lay before the fishermen, at
settling, the <missive of sale>, that document being the common
property of <both parties>, and more especially as three-fourths at
least of the cash realized is understood to belong to the men.
<That>, however, <is not the practice>; and hence the fishermen,
naturally jealous, and still wincing under the scars of former years,
are never satisfied; and I consider the curer in acting thus is
reprehensible, and the fishermen justified in complaining, even
when the curer is a sufferer. Were it made penal on the part of the
curer to treat the bargain so, there would be less injustice done to
himself, and less suspicion thrown around his integrity. Since the
truck uproar has spread its wings on the Shetland blast, and
breathed offensively in the faces even of Her Majesty's
Government, it has been suggested by strangers that curers should
pay their fishermen each time fish was delivered. That mode
would not be advantageous to the fishermen. It would suit their
interests better to be paid at the close of the fishing, on the same
principle as is done by those engaged in the seal trade. At every
station during the summer fishing there is a 'beach price,' and if
that price was paid for the summer's catch at the close of the
fishing it would put the fishermen in a position of buying with
<cash> instead of being dependent on their curer's store for
months after the fishing had closed. The residue of the price,
which would be a mere trifle, would be paid them when the fish
was sold, and the price known, on the same principle as 'oil-money'
in the seal trade. I have no doubt whatever but such a mode, if
adopted, would tend to put a stop to the present and <necessary>
facilities of drawing so largely upon the curer's store. The
fisherman who has neither money nor <credit> must go to his curer's
store, as he has no other alternative; but were he put in possession
of his earnings at the close of the fishing, <truck> for a time would
disappear from his individual horizon. I may mention that the hosier
referred to in my evidence as having paid £90 in cash in a year to a
party in the country for hosiery and yarn was Mr. Robert Linklater,
Lerwick; and I may further state that I have known Mr. Robert Sinclair
give £15 once on a £20 transaction of hosiery, etc.
BALTASOUND, UNST: FRIDAY, JANUARY 19, 1872.
<Present>-MR. GUTHRIE.
JOAN OGILVY, examined.
9731. Have you been in the habit of knitting with your own
worsted?-Yes; at times with my own worsted, and at times
with worsted from other people.
9732. When you knit with your own worsted, do you spin it
yourself?-No; sometimes I buy it, and sometimes other people
spin it for me; but it is not much that I do in that way. The most I
have made has been for other people.
9733. Do you not spin at all?-No; my mother spins a little and I
have knitted that and sold the hosiery.
9734. At what shops do you buy worsted here?-I have not bought
any, except a little, once, at John Johnston's shop. I paid 3d. a cut
for it in cash.
9735. Do they not give you worsted unless you pay for it in
money?-I never asked it.
9736. Have you never asked for worsted when you were selling
your hosiery?-No.
9737. Are you generally paid for your hosiery in goods?-Yes,
goods or other articles which I require such as tea and meal, and
other things.
9738. Do you sell most of your knitting to Mrs. Spence?-No. I
have sold nothing to her, except one half-shawl. I have sold a few
veils to John Johnston. They are very fine veils that I knit, and I
get 1s. 6d. for each of them.
9739. Are you always paid for them in goods?-No. I have got
cash. I knit superior articles, and I have sometimes got as much
as 30s. for knitting one silk shawl. That was not the price of the
shawl: it was merely for the knitting.
9740. But when you sell a shawl made by yourself, what do you
get for it?-I sold one worsted shawl in May in John Johnston's
shop, for which I got 19s. 6d. I did not ask for any cash, because
it was not the custom to give it.
9741. Is it the custom here to pay for hosiery in nothing but
goods?-I get cash at times.
9742. Are your shawls generally worth about 20s.?-No; I have
sold half-shawls at 16s., and others at 15s. and 14s.
9743. What was the largest sum you ever got in money when you
sold a shawl of that value?-15s.; that was the whole price of it,
but that was some years back, and I sold it to a lady.
9744. But when you sold to a merchant have you ever got the
whole price in money?-No; I never asked it.
9745. Do you get a higher price for your work when you take it in
goods than when you get money for it?-I don't think so.
9746. You said you sold a shawl in May last for 19s. 6d., and got
the price all in goods. Suppose you had asked payment for that
shawl in money, would you have asked the same price for it?-
Yes, but I would not have got it. They would not have give cash
for it.
9747. Would you not have got 2s. 6d. less in money?-I did not
ask for it in that way.
9748. Would you have sold that shawl for 17s. if you had got
money?-I think so.
9749. Would you rather have had the 17s. in money than the 19s.
6d. in goods?-I don't think I would have been any better.
9750. Did you want the goods?-Yes.
9751. Would you not have got them cheaper if you had had the
cash in your hand to pay for them?-I might have got them a little
cheaper.
9752. Do you think you would always be willing to sell your
hosiery goods a little cheaper if you were paid in cash instead of
in goods?-I don't think I would. The price is low enough, even
with the goods payment.
9753. When you get the worsted given out to you, are you paid in
money or in goods for knitting it?-Sometimes in money and
sometimes in goods, just as I ask it.
9754. For whom do you knit in that way?-I have knitted some for
Mrs. Spence. I knit fine silk for her, not Shetland worsted. I got
30s. for knitting one shawl for her, and 25s. for another; but these
were very fine ones, and of large size. It took me a long time to
work them. She paid me for these in cash.
9755. Did she hand you over the money, or did she send you down
to the shop for it?-She gave me the money with her own hand.
9756. Did she do so in both cases?-Yes; part of it, and part I took
a little goods for, just as suited myself.
9757. How much of the 30s. did she hand you over in cash?-I
cannot say exactly now, because it is more than a year ago.
9758. Did she give you a half of it in cash?-More than that.
9759. How did you get the rest in goods? Did you go to the shop
for them?-No. They were brought from Lerwick for me. They
were women's cloth jackets.
9760. Were you to sell these in your own shop?-I have no shop.
9761. Did you not sell groceries?-No. I had a little goods at one
time to sell for a man in Lerwick, but I have none now. I gave out
hosiery to the girls, and when they brought it back I served them
with the goods which I had got from the man in Lerwick.
9762. Who was he?-Peter Edward Petrie.
9763. Does he deal in hosiery?-Yes.
9764. And does he deal in groceries in Lerwick?-He has given up
his shop, but he dealt there at one time in soft goods and tea.
9765. How much cash did you get from Mrs. [Page 237] Spence
for the 25s. shawl?-I don't remember; it is two years ago.
9766. Have you sold some things to Mrs. Spence since?-No; but
I have always knitted some things for her. The last was a fine
worsted shawl. I took it to her about a month ago. I think the
price would be 12s., but I have not settled with her yet.
9767. Do you keep an account with her?-She keeps an account
for me herself.
9768. Have you not got any part of the price of that shawl?-The
price is not settled, but I have got some goods for it.
9769. Do you sometimes take a line from her?-No; I have had no
lines from her.
9770. Is that because there is an account for you in her books, and
you don't need them?-I suppose so.
9771. When you want goods do you go to the shop and get
them?-Yes, I get them from her.
9772. Does she attend in the shop?-I believe she does at times,
but she does not keep the things there which she supplies to us.
The things for the knitting come from Lerwick.
9773. She just enters these things against you in your account, and
then she enters in your favour the shawls which you make, and she
balances now and then?-Yes.
9774. How often do you settle your account with her?-Not often.
I have not had a great deal of goods from her.
9775. Have you got any money at all from her for what you have
knitted?-Yes; but I could not say how much, because I did not
think of keeping an account of it.
9776. Will you knit £2 or £3 worth to her in the course of a
year?-I did that when I was knitting for her, and perhaps it little
more.
9777. How much of that would you get in money?-I would get it
all from her if I asked it. I have got £2 a time from her.
9778. Was that for knitting, or for a shawl that you were selling?-
It was for knitting.
9779. Did you want the money to pay your rent?-Yes, partly, and
partly for other things.
9780. Do you know that Mrs. Spence always gives you goods for
your knitting which she gets from Lerwick?-Yes, when I ask
them; but when I ask for cash I get it.
9781. But you do not often ask for cash?-I have oftener asked
cash from her than from any other person and she always gave it to
me because she knew I could not do without it.
9782. Are you a finer knitter than ordinary?-Yes. I make very
good articles.
9783. Do you sometimes knit a shawl for a special order?-Yes.
9784. Do you sometimes make a bargain then that you are to be
paid in cash for it?-Yes.
9785. Do you think the price is less when you make bargain that
you are to be paid in money than when you take it out in goods?-
No, it is not less.
9786. Would you not sell a shawl for it less price if you knew you
were to get it in money than if you knew you were only to be paid
in goods?-I might have 1s. less, but not much less.
9787. Have you never got a line from Mrs. Spence, or from any
shop here?-No. I have got no lines since the late Mrs. Dr.
Edmonstone died. I knitted for her, and sometimes I got cash
from her, and sometimes lines for goods on the shop.
9788. But that was some time ago?-Yes.
9789. Do you sometimes knit for John Johnston?-Yes. I get
worsted from him to knit, and I take it back to him again. I have
got 10s. from him for knitting a shawl of 27 scores: that is an
ordinary size. I got none of that in money. I never asked it from
him. He keeps a shop, and therefore I don't ask him for money.
9790. Then why do you ask Mrs. Spence for money? Is it because
she does not keep a shop?-She only keeps soft goods.
9791. And you are not always wanting soft goods?-No.
9792. Do you do anything besides knitting?-I work at the harvest,
and at other kinds of work. I have it very small farm of my own.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Mrs. JANET ROBERTSON,
examined.
9793. Are you in the habit of knitting?-Yes.
9794. Do you knit with your own worsted?-No; the worsted is
given out to me.
9795. Who do you generally knit for?-Mrs. Spence.
9796. Do you do a great deal of fine work for her?-Yes.
9797. How do you receive payment?-In goods and money. I get
money when I want it, but it is generally in goods. I get supplies in
the shop upon a line which Mrs. Spence gives me. I take the line
to the shop at once and get what goods or provisions I require.
9798. Does Mrs. Spence take the shawl from you and give you a
line in her own house, which is beside the shop?-Yes.
9799. Then you go with the line into the shop and get what goods
you want?-Yes. The line is addressed to Messrs. Spence & Co.,
and signed by her, and the which is due is written upon it.
9800. Is that always the way in which you are paid?-Yes.
9801. How often do you go with work to Mrs. Spence?-Perhaps
once a month; just when my work is finished.
9802. Have you generally 15s. or 20s. to get?-Perhaps from 10s.
to 12s.
9803. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of fine
worsted?-The highest is 12s. There are thirty-three cuts of
worsted given out to me for knitting a shawl of 30 scores. I
think the price of the worsted is 3d. or 4d. a cut, but I never
bought any myself.
9804. When you do not get provisions or groceries, but take soft
goods for your knitting, do you go to the shop for them, or do you
get them from Mrs. Spence herself?-I get them from the shop.
9805. Have you knitted for any person except Mrs. Spence?-I
have done a little for John Johnston; but I am paid in the same way
there, in goods.
9806. Do you get no lines there?-No.
9807. You just take the article to the shop and get the goods you
want?-Yes.
9808. How do you manage when you are to pay your rent?-I have
no rent to pay. I have a house of my own.
9809. Do you keep an account with any of the shops?-No.
9810. Do you always get your provisions from Spence & Co.'s at
Haroldswick?-Yes.
9811. What do you pay for tea?-10d. and 1s. per quarter.
9812. What do you pay for your meal?-1s. 4d. a peck. It is 1s.
5d. just now.
9813. What do you pay for a half-loaf?-5d.
9814. Is that brought from Lerwick?-Yes.
9815. What do you pay for unbleached cotton?-10d.; but I have
not bought it for some time back. There is some of it at 6d., but
not of such a good quality. The cotton at 6d. is half-bleached. I
bought that half-bleached cotton in summer, and I am sure I paid
6d. a yard for it.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN LAURENSON, examined.
9816. You are a fisherman at Burrafirth?-I am.
9817. You hold a bit of land there?-Yes, from Mr. Edmonstone
of Buness.
9818. What rent do you pay?-£5.
9819. Are you bound to fish for any person in particular?- [Page
238] Not that I know of, but I fish for Spence & Co. I have fished
for them since they commenced business, and before that to Mr.
David Edmonstone, when he was carrying on business in that way.
9820. Have you fished for any other person in Unst?-Yes. I
fished first for the late Mr. Thomas Edmonstone of Buness, and
then for Mr. Samuel Hunter.
9821. Have you always been free to fish for any person you
chose?-I don't think so. When I was a tenant to the late Mr.
Edmonstone of Buness I fished for him, and when Mr. Hunter got
a tack of the land I fished for him, but I could not tell exactly
whether I was free to fish for any other person or not.
9822. You don't know what would have happened to you if you
had sold your fish to anybody else?-I do not.
9823. But now you can fish for any person you please?-I believe
I can.
9824. Is there any other person except Spence & Co. to whom you
can sell your fish here?-There is no one in our quarter except Mr.
John Johnston. He does a little in the fish way, but we don't sell
any to him.
9825. Do most of the people hereabout fish for Spence & Co., and
settle with them every winter?-Yes.
9826. Have you settled with them for last year?-Yes, I settled
about 10th January at Haroldswick.
9827. Have you a pass-book?-No.
9828. Have you an account in their books?-Yes.
9829. Is that read over to you, or do you know the balance
yourself?-It is read over on the day of settlement.
9830. Have you a note of the articles you have got?-No.
9831. Then how do you know that your account is correct?-I
have never found anything wrong with regard to the articles which
I had got, and I was quite satisfied they were all correct.
9832. Did you remember that you had got all the articles, and the
price of them, when they were read over to you?-Yes.
9833. Did you order them?-Yes; I either got them myself or some
member of my family brought them home.
9834. But are you sure that you can recollect perfectly well both
the articles you got, and the quantities, and the prices?-Yes;
when the account is read over to me I can.
9835. When you get a thing out of the shop, do you always know
the price of it?-Yes.
9836. You ask the price, and you are told what it is at the time
when you buy it?-Yes.
9837. Do you get all your supplies there?-Yes; unless perhaps a
very little which we may buy from some other shop.
9838. Do you sometimes buy at Johnston's shop?-Yes, but very
little.
9839. Do you pay for that at the time?-Yes.
9840. You have not an account with Johnston?-No.
9841. I suppose most of your neighbours have an account with
Spence & Co. and get the most of their supplies from them?-Yes.
9842. Do none of them deal with other shops in the district?-I am
not able to say what they do.
9843. What was the price of meal at Spence & Co.'s shop during
the past year?-1s. 5d. per 8 lbs. I think it was the same price for
almost the whole year. I rather think it was 1s. 4d. once, but I
cannot say.
9844. Have you got meal from any other shop?-Yes, from Mr.
Isbister. The price there was 1s. 4d.
9845. Did you pay for that in cash?-Yes.
9846. Was the meal of the same quality?-Yes.
9847. Do you buy any soft goods from Spence & Co.'s shop?-
Yes, I buy white cotton for making oilskin clothes and shirts. We
pay from 41/2d. to 8d., according to the quality of the cotton. It is
generally unbleached cotton that we buy.
9848. Do you oil it and make it waterproof yourself?-Yes.
9849. Who do you pay your rent to?-To Spence & Co. They pay
it to Mr. Edmonstone for me.
9850. Do you mean that it is put down in your account with them
against you?-Yes.
9851. How do they pay it to Mr. Edmonstone?-In cash, I
suppose; but I don't know anything about that.
9852. They don't give you a line to Mr. Edmonstone?-No.
9853. Do you get receipts for your rent?-Yes, if we ask for them.
9854. But you don't generally ask for them?-No.
9855. Have you generally a balance to get at the end of the year, or
is the balance against you?-The balance is against me at present,
and it has been against me since the first year of the company in
consequence of bad fishings and bad crops.
9856. What boat hire do you pay?-£2, 14s. for the boat, or 9s. per
man. I buy my own lines. I get them at fishing time, and they are
marked into the account. The price is from 2s. 3d. to 3s. per line,
according to the weight of the lines. I require ten ground lines and
a line for a buoy rope.
9857. Does each man require that number?-Yes.
9858. Do you pay about 24s. for the ten lines?-Yes; and then we
have to furnish these lines with smaller lines and hooks. If they
are all new, the cost of lines and hooks will be about 30s. per man
for what we call a weight of lines.
9859. How do you settle for them?-We settle for them along with
all the rest of our accounts on the day of settlement. The whole
account is read over and summed up together, and then the rent is
brought forward, and the whole dealings put in. Our earnings are
placed on the credit side of the page, and then balance is struck in
our favour, or against us, as case may be.
9860. Are all the lines charged against you one year?-Yes.
9861. When you buy the lines at the beginning of the fishing
season, there is no arrangement that the price of them is to be
charged against, the next three years, and that you are to pay them
by instalments?-No.
9862. Do you return the lines at the end of the season?-No; we
keep them. They will perhaps serve for three seasons; or if the
lines are really good, they may do for four.
9863. Then you will have nothing to pay for lines the second year
if you have paid them up in the first year?-If we have paid them
up we have nothing to pay afterwards.
9864. Do you usually manage to pay up your lines in the first
year?-We generally pay what we can when we settle. What we
have over from the fishing is just put to the payment of the whole
that we are due.
9865. Are there any other fishing expenses excepting the boats and
lines?-Yes; the hooks and tomes, or small lines, have always to
be put in repair.
9866. Do you pay for them?-Yes; we buy the whole of them, and
we repair the tomes and hooks ourselves.
9867. Then that is not an additional expense?-No.
9868. Do you ever get any cash advanced to you from Spence &
Co.?-At times I get a few shillings.
9869. How long is it since you began to fish for them?-I have
fished for Mr. Spence since 1857, and for Spence & Co. in 1868,
1869, 1870, and 1871.
9870. Have you ever got anything more than four shillings in
cash?-No, not in cash.
9871. Have you any taxes or poor-rates to pay?-Yes; the
poor-rates are charged by Mr. White, the inspector and collector,
and they are paid in cash.
9872. Do you draw that from your account with the company, or
how do you raise the cash for it?-I get a little cash from the
company to pay my poor-rates.
9873. Do you sell any stock off your farm?-Yes, when I have a
cow I sell it. I cannot sell one every year; I have not so many as
that.
9874. Have you no other beasts but cows?-No.
[Page 239]
9875. Who did you sell your last cow to?-The last I sold to the
company; it was a three-year-old quey. It was taken to the sale in
May 1871, and I got 9s., which was put to my account. I got no
money.
9876. Did you ever get money for any of the stock you have sold
during the last five years?-No.
9877. Were they always put into your account?-Yes.
9878. Did you always sell them to Spence & Co.?-I sold them to
Mr. David Edmonstone. I sold nothing to the company except that
quey.
9879. Why did you sell them to Mr. Edmonstone?-They were put
down towards my rent.
9880. Then you did not pay your rent at that time through Spence
& Co.?-No; I was not fishing for them then. I sold a fat cow to
Mr. David Edmonstone since I began to fish for Spence, to pay a
balance which I was due him. These are all the cattle I have had to
sell.
9881. Have you not sold any other stock except these two cattle for
the last five or six years?-No.
9882. Is there any other way you have of getting money except by
selling your stock and your fish?-No.
9883. Then you will not have much money passing through your
hands?-No, very little.
9884. Will you have £1 in your hands in the course of a year?-I
could hardly say, because I don't take particular note of how many
twopences or sixpences pass through my hands.
9885. But will you have £1 at a time?-No; I have not had £1 at a
time.
9886. Have you had 10s.?-Yes; I have had that.
9887. Do you sometimes sell your winter fish?-Yes.
9888. Do you get money for them?-Yes, if we ask it.
9889. Who do you sell them to?-To Spence & Co.
9890. Are you generally paid in money for your winter fish?-A
little money and some goods.
9891. But these are settled for at the time?-They do not enter
your account at all.
9892. Would you get the whole price of your winter fish in cash if
you asked for it?-I believe I would; but I could not say, because I
have never asked the whole of it in that way.
9893. Why have you never asked it?-Because I thought the goods
were just the same from their shop as from any other place, and I
did not think of asking them for money with which to go to any
other place and purchase goods.
9894. Did you think you would not have got it all if you had asked
for it in cash?-I cannot say, because I never did ask it; but I think
I would have got it if I had asked them, so far as I know.
9895. Are you quite content to go on in this way without getting
your money into your own hands?-I should like to get all my own
money into my own hands if I could.
9896. You say you think you could have got the money for your
winter fish if you had asked it?-I think I could.
9897. Then why did you not ask for it if you would like to have
your money?-For the reason I have mentioned: that I thought the
goods were the same in their shop as in any other place and
therefore I did not ask it.
9898. Then why do you want the money?-Because if I had
the money, I would perhaps buy my goods somewhere else, if I
thought I could get them cheaper or better.
9899. Have you any fault to find with the quality of the goods you
get at their shop?-Sometimes I think the meal is not very good.
Flour was sometimes 1s. 3d., and it was not very good.
9900. Did you ever try any other flour?-Yes; I got a little from
other places. It was not very much that I could buy, but I got flour
at other shops which was of superior quality.
9901. What did you pay for it?-About 1s. 4d or 1s. 5d.
9902. Then that was it little dearer than the flour you got at the
company's shop?-Yes; I got it at Mr. Johnston's.
9903. Would you not have got as good flour at the company's shop
if you had paid a higher price for it?-Yes; they had good flour at
1s. 6d.
9904. But you cannot complain of them giving you a worse quality
of flour at a lower price?-No.
9905. Was the meal the same as you get at any place for the same
sum?-It was 1d. per peck higher last summer.
9906. And you said it was not quite so good as you would like?-
That was the flour.
9907. I thought you said so about the meal also?-There were
some weeks when the meal was really good, and some weeks
when it was not so good.
9908. How did you get the money with which to purchase flour at
Johnston's?-We sold a few eggs or a little butter, and got it in
that way.
9909. You did not pay for it in money, but in eggs or butter?-
Yes.
9910. Is that it common way of selling your eggs and butter?-
Yes.
9911. You do not get money for them?-No.
9912. Why did you not take the eggs and butter to Spence & Co.'s
shop?-Because we sometimes thought of trying another place.
9913. Why did you not take your money for the winter fishing and
buy your provisions at another place if you thought you could get
them better?-Our earnings from it were very small; and for all
the money we had to get, it was not worth while to take it from
Spence & Co.'s shop and go to any other place with it, even
although we might have got our goods it little cheaper. I think all
my winter fishing only came to about 30s.
9914. How far do you live from the company's shop?-Nearly two
miles.
9915. Is Johnston's shop nearer to you?-Very little.
9916. Is there any other shop nearer?-No.
9917. Have you ever been asked to fish for any other person than
Spence & Co. since they began business?-No.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, MAGNUS HENDERSON,
examined.
9918. You are a proprietor near Haroldswick?-Yes, a small
proprietor.
9919. You have been resident in Unst all your life?-Yes.
9920. You were at one time engaged in the fishing yourself, and
you know the system that is practised here?-Yes, so far.
9921. I presume the system of annual settlements has been one of
long continuance here?-Yes.
9922. The fishermen have also for a long time combined the
calling of farming with that of fishing?-Yes.
9923. They fish for about four months in the year, and are engaged
on their farms for the rest of the time?-Yes.
9924. How has the rent been usually paid to the landlord during
the last twenty or thirty years?-Very often the tenants have fished
for the landlord; and of course at the end of the year, when their
accounts were made up, the rent was taken into account along with
other matters.
9925. When they did not fish for their landlord, has there been
any arrangement between the landlord and the fish-merchant
for the payment of the rent?-Yes. In some cases, I suppose, the
fish-curers are bound to pay the rent to the landlord for the tenants
who fish for them.
9926. Are you aware whether there has been a written arrangement
of that kind between the landlord and the fish-merchants?-I am
not aware of that.
[Page 240]
9927. Of course, when the fish-merchant happens to be the
tacksman, that is it different case?-It is.
9928. But where the fish-merchant is not the tacksman, is it the
practice that he generally settles with the landlord for the rent?-I
think so, or he becomes accountable to the landlord for the amount
of the rent.
9929. Do you know whether the rent has been paid by means of
lines handed to the fishermen or tenants, or whether the merchant
just hands a cheque to the landlord for the amount of rent due by
all the fishermen?-I am not prepared to answer that.
9930. Has it been it universal practice in Unst, or anything like a
universal practice, for fishermen to deal at the shops kept by the
landlord or merchant for whom they fished?-That has generally
been the practice.
9931. Is there any understanding that they shall go to that shop for
their supplies?-There is such an understanding, but they are not
compelled to do so. Of course if a man is in debt, and has no
means with which to go to another shop, he is very thankful to get
his supplies from the merchant, and he has to get them on credit.
9932. And when he gets them on credit, the merchant is safe to get
paid by the fish if the men deliver their fish to him?-He gives
them credit, and he must take his chance of being paid when the
fish are delivered.
9933. I suppose a fisherman here does not wish very often to
change his residence and his place of fishing?-Not very often.
9934. But if he did happen to do so would not the fact of him
having an account with the merchant in the place prevent him
from shifting his quarters?-I don't know that it would.
9935. He might have an account standing against him here, and
would he not be bound to pay it?-Yes. He ought to pay it before
he shifted to another employer.
9936. And the merchant might raise an action against him if he
were to remove?-Yes, and if he could not pay his debt.
9937. Is that it thing of frequent occurrence?-No.
9938. Do you think that men are prevented from shifting to other
places, by the fact that they are in debt?-I don't know that they
are. I have not known any case of that within my own experience.
9939. Have you known cases where a man wanted to engage with
another merchant in the island, or in the neighbouring islands, and
who was unable to do so in consequence of being in debt to his
former employer?-No such case has come under my notice.
9940. Do you know whether it is usual, when a man does engage
with a new employer in that way, that the new employer takes over
and becomes responsible for any debt that has been standing in the
former employer's books?-They very often do that, but I don't
know if it is a general rule.
9941. Have you known cases of that sort occurring?-Yes.
9942. Pretty often?-Not very often, but I have known of some.
9943. Is that done at the request of the fishermen, or is it an
arrangement between the merchants?-I should think it was
arranged partly with the fishermen and partly with the merchants.
9944. You think the fisherman has no objection to it?-No.
9945. Do you think the condition and the character of the
fishermen in this district would be improved if cash payments
were the rule instead of these long settlements?-I could not say. I
have no doubt some would manage their affairs better if there
were cash payments, but some would manage them worse. There
are differences in the character of the men here, as everywhere
else.
9946. Do you not think that relying on the merchant for supplies if
a bad season comes, makes these fishermen a little more careless
in running up accounts?-In [som]e cases it does.
9947. They feel that the merchant is anxious to employ them, and
that if a bad season comes, and their debt is not beyond all bounds,
they are safe to get supplies for the season?-Yes; perhaps some
of them look too much to that.
9948. Is it a common complaint that the fishermen do not know
the price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season?-
Yes, they do not generally make any arrangement for the price
before then.
9949. Do you think that is a reasonable complaint?-I don't know.
I think that if the thing is conducted on just principles it is a good
thing for both parties, because the fishermen have the same chance
of being, benefited by a rising market as the merchant; but it been
a general thing to make no arrangement as to price until the fish
are sold.
9950. Have you known any cases in which the price has been fixed
at the beginning of the season?-I cannot say that I have known
any particular case of that kind.
9951. Do you think the fishermen would agree to an arrangement
fixing the price at the beginning of the season?-I think some of
them would; but perhaps some of them would rather allow it to
continue in the old way.
9952. Do you think they would not like to fish for so much weekly
wages, and so much additional at the end of the season according
to the market price?-I don't think they would. I think they would
be better satisfied to be paid in proportion to the amount of fish
they catch.
9953. Would it be possible to pay them in proportion to the
amount of fish they catch, and also to pay them at shorter times?-
It would be possible enough to do it, if they came to an agreement
as to the price per cwt. for green fish. If that were done, it would
be at the option of the fish-curers and the fishermen to make an
arrangement for paying at shorter periods.
9954. If they got their money in hand in that way, do you not think
that would lead them to be more independent than they are at
present?-It ought to do.
9955. Don't you think the settlement with the fishermen is delayed
too long after the fishing season is over?-I have no doubt it is
delayed long enough; but perhaps sometimes it is a long time
before the merchants get paid for their fish, and that may prevent
them from making the settlement earlier.
9956. Do you mean that the settlement is delayed until the
merchant realizes the price of his fish?-I understand that is
very often the case.
9957. So that, in that view, the merchant is really to some
extent trading on the fishermen's capital?-Yes, while it is in
his possession; but very often he has not a long time of it, because
I understand he generally sells his fish on credit, and it is some
time before he is paid.
9958. But a man who sells upon credit in that way requires some
capital to enable him to carry on his business?-Yes.
9959. And in this case it is really the fishermen's capital that is
being traded upon; that is to say, the fisherman has not received
payment for his fish, and that money which he ought to have
received for his fish is in the hands of the merchant?-But very
often a fisherman has taken up the amount of his fishing before the
settlement.
9960. He may have done so in goods?-Yes.
9961. Is that the case with most of them?-It is the case with a
good many, and some of them perhaps have overdrawn their
account.
9962. Then in that case the merchant is really advancing the price
of the fish in goods beforehand?-Yes.
9963. Would it not be as easy for the merchant, and better for the
fishermen to make the same advance to them in the course of the
season in cash?-I suppose so.
9964. Only the merchant has a profit on the goods under the
present system?-Of course he has.
9965. And in that case the merchant gets his upon the goods, but
the fisherman gets no interest on [Page 241] the money which he
lies out of until settlement?-Of course not.
9966. Therefore the merchant has the benefit both of the interest
on the fishermen's capital in his hand, and, in addition to that, the
profit upon the goods furnished to the fishermen?-Yes.
9967. And besides that, he is safe not to lose upon the
transactions of the year, not having the price fixed until his
sales are realized?-Yes. The only chance by which a merchant
sometimes loses is, that he advances a man further than the man's
earnings can meet.
9968. But he can do that or not, as he pleases?-Of course; but
there are sometimes cases where the fisherman requires a certain
amount of supplies. He cannot do without them, and if the fishing
is short then he is not able to meet them.
9969. Does it not strike you as being rather a one-sided
transaction, the fisherman gets no interest on his capital,
which is in the merchant's hands in the shape of the price
of his fish?-It is not very long there.
9970. It is there for four or five months, and in the meantime the
merchant is making a profit on the goods?-If the merchant could
turn over the fish when he gets them he might be able to pay the
men at once, but there is generally a long time between the time
when the fisherman delivers his fish and when they are brought to
market and the money paid. The fish take a long time to cure, and
the summer is often done before much of the fish can be sent to
market. Then the merchant generally sells at two or three months'
credit to the buyer, and it is that time before he can realize his
money.
9971. Do you know whether the merchants in Unst are in the habit
of dealing much in stock?-I don't know; there is generally a sale
once a year for the cattle, and any one who wishes to go to the sale
is at liberty to go. If any one wishes to dispose of his stock
privately to any one else, he is quite at liberty to do so.
9972. Who are the largest purchasers at the sales?-I cannot say,
for I have not been always there.
9973. Who conducts them?-An auctioneer from Lerwick, Mr.
Henry.
9974. Do you think a ready-money system would be any
improvement as regards the fishermen?-I think it would.
In fact a ready-money system in anything would be an
improvement over barter: at least it ought to be, but whether
it would or not I cannot say.
9975. Do you think that, in point of fact, the present system is one
of barter?-Yes.
9976. I suppose very little money passes into the hands of the
fishermen in the course of the year?-There is sometimes a good
deal. If a fisherman has money to get he always gets it, so far as I
am aware.
9977. That is to say, if he has a balance at the end of the year he
will get that?-Yes; and I presume that if a man has not a balance
he cannot well ask for anything.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON,
examined.
9978. You are one of the partners of the firm of Spence & Co., and
you have been so since the formation of the company in 1868?-
Yes.
9979. Formerly you carried on business in your own name?-Yes,
in company with Messrs. Hay & Co. of Lerwick, at Uyea Sound.
9980. Was that a separate partnership from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-
Yes. I was manager there, and had a share of the business. It was
entirely distinct from their Lerwick business.
9981. In 1868 you entered into partnership with some other
gentlemen who had been carrying on a similar business in the
island of Unst?-Yes.
9982. And at that time, I understand, you took a lease from Major
Cameron of all his property in the island?-Almost the whole of it.
There was some of it on lease before, which we don't have.
9983. You have all his property, exclusive of the large farms held
on lease before?-Yes. We had two or three small farms let to us
on lease as well.
9984. Was that arrangement with Major Cameron embodied in a
written lease?-Yes.
9985. Have you got it here?-No. We have a copy of it at
Baltasound.
9986. By the terms of that lease, I understand there was no
obligation upon the tenants to fish for your firm?-No.
9987. And it was intimated to them at the time that they were at
perfect liberty to deliver their fish to any person?-I don't know if
it was intimated to them specially at the time; but I think Mr.
Walker told them so at one time when we wished him to meet the
tenants both in the north and south end of the island.
9988. What was the occasion of that meeting?-Just to explain to
them the nature of the improvements, and the connection between
us as the tenants and them as the sub-tenants.
9989. The tenants under that lease pay their rents to you
directly?-Yes.
9990. And they have no concern with the proprietor?-None.
9991. You are responsible for the rent stipulated by you to be
paid?-Yes; for rent, poor-rates, and taxes affecting the tenant.
9992. It is part of your arrangement with the landlord that you
shall superintend, and endeavour to get the tenants to carry out
certain improvements upon the estate?-Yes; we are bound under
the lease to carry out certain improvements.
9993. And a division of the lands has also taken place under that
arrangement?-Yes.
9994. Have you proceeded with these improvements to a
considerable extent?-Yes. We have got on remarkably well
with them; better than I expected when we first took it on. It
has been a very uphill job.
9995. Do you find that that improved system of farming is
compatible with the men continuing the occupation of
fishermen?-I think it is, on the small farms, because the
fisherman has a very great deal of spare time in winter, which
in former times he did not profitably employ, and he can do it
now on his farm to great advantage.
9996. Do you think it would not be possible in Shetland for the
men to follow the occupation of fishermen all the year round?-I
have given that subject most earnest thought. At one time I
thought it might, but latterly I have come to the conclusion that it
is not possible. In the first place, we have no fresh fish market
here, and it is impossible to get the fish into the south market in a
fresh state when they would command a high price. Then, in the
winter time the weather is so broken, and the seas round this coast
so boisterous, that it is almost impossible to go to the deep sea in
boats; and the fish that are caught near the shores in the sounds
and bays are in such limited quantity that they would not be nearly
sufficient to meet the man's daily wants. From the farm, however,
he has sufficient potatoes and milk for his family; and even on the
smallest farms he has, I should say, six months meal on the
average.
9997. But if the fishermen were supplied with a different kind of
boats, such as are used in other parts of Scotland, say of 32 feet
keel, such as are used at Wick, could they not go to sea in
winter?-I am afraid our fishermen would not take very kindly to
these boats.
9998. Perhaps not at first, but would they not do so after a certain
period of apprenticeship?-I think I would back six of our men
against six of the Wick men in their respective boats, and I would
expect our men to come on shore when the Wick men would be
drowned. I think the Wick boats are much too heavy in a sea, and
they are much more in danger of filling than our light skiffs are. I
remember on one occasion, on the north of Unst, when some of
our boats were out, and a gentleman's yacht was near them
dredging shells, he thought they could never come ashore, and
kindly ran down among them, thinking to render the assistance
[Page 242] but when he reached them he found they were far drier
than he was. He came in with some of his bulwarks washed away,
while they got safe ashore.
9999. Don't you think the weather is just as severe where these
Wick and Buckie boats fish as it is in this quarter?-I believe it is
as severe, but I don't know if the tides and currents are as rapid
and strong, because they have a longer stretch of coast. Off any
land end, the current is very strong and the sea runs very high, and
I think that nearly three-fourths of all the accidents that have
occurred in Shetland have occurred in crossing these springs of
tide,-strong currents going right against the wind, just inland, as
off the point of Unst, or the point of Sumburgh. It is not on the
ocean that our boats would be lost, but in taking the land and
crossing the tides near headlands.
10,000. If it were not for these dangerous tide-ways, would it be
possible for the men to go off to the haaf in winter if they had
proper boats for the purpose?-They could go off a certain
distance, but the day is very short here, and I don't think they
would have much chance with the long lines in a day of about
eight hours.
10,001. Has any attempt been made to introduce an extensive
system of winter fishing here?-I don't think any attempt has ever
been made, except in the spring on the west side at Scalloway and
east at Fetlar, where there are spawning beds apparently for the
ling. They come nearer into the land there in March and April,
and some attempts have been made at these places with our
ordinary boats.
10,002. But these are partial attempts, and have not been
continued?-They are conducted every year, but some years
they are very unsuccessful.
10,003. In settling with your fishermen, I understand you settle
with them at the different stations, at Uyea Sound, Baltasound,
and Haroldswick, quite separately?-At Uyea Sound the
settlements are quite distinct; at Baltasound and Haroldswick
they are combined. Some crews are settled for at Haroldswick,
but there is only one set of books at Baltasound.
10,004. Can you give me a general idea from recollection, to what
extent your fishermen are settled with in goods in the course of the
year? Will it be to the extent of one-fourth or one half of their
earnings?-Some men may take out not one-fourth, some may
take one-fourth, some a half, and some more than the whole.
10,005. Have you ever thought of striking an average?-I have
looked into my cash books several times in past years, and when
I have summed up the amount of green fish received at the price
agreed on and paid, I found that, as a general rule, at settling time
I paid in cash, either in rent, which is cash, or cash given into the
hands of the fishermen, fully two-thirds of the entire amount of
fish coming into my hands.
10,006. Do you think it would be possible to introduce any
system by which the settlement should not be made at such long
intervals?-I have considered the matter seriously since the Truck
Commission was first spoken about, and I have come to the settled
conviction that it would be very much for the curer to pay monthly
in cash.
10,007. Would that payment be according to the quantity of fish
delivered, or by way of wages, or partially both?-There are two
reasons why I think wages would not do. In the first place, the
fishermen would not like to take wages, because if they make a
good fishing they would not get so much as they do now; and, in
the second place, I am sorry to say that with the greater part of
them, if they got wages they would not fish half so much.
10,008. Then what system would you suggest?-I think the right
system is just to fix a price at the beginning of the year of so much
per cwt. for green fish, and pay it monthly or fortnightly in cash as
may be agreed upon.
10,009. Do you think it likely from your experience, that the
fishermen would agree to that?-Two years ago in North Yell,
when I settled with the fishermen there, I urged the men to take
cash payments, because we had no store there, and it was an
inconvenience for us to send goods. We had to employ a man
and pay him, which cost us something; but I found that they all
declined my proposal. In the same year, 1870, I tried to engage
our fishermen in the south of Unst and in Yell at a fixed price, and
I did so. Every fisherman who went out in the south end of Unst
and Yell that year was engaged at 7s, per cwt. I made that bargain
in December in writing; but when settling time came we could
afford to pay them 7s. 3d., and I did so, according to the previous
practice. I might have pocketed £30 by that transaction, but if I
had done so the fishermen would have thought I had treated them
dishonestly.
10,010. Were they going to grumble?-I have no doubt some of
them would have grumbled if they had not got the additional price.
I would not say that all of them would have grumbled, because
there are some of our fishermen who are very intelligent and very
reasonable men, and who would have understood the thing, and
said that a bargain was a bargain.
10,011. Did you pay down the 7s. 3d. in consequence of any
representation made by them?-No; I did it quite spontaneously.
10,012. Then it was you who did not stick to the bargain?-It was;
I improved the bargain for them.
10,013. Suppose it had been the other way, what would have taken
place?-I would not have asked the fishermen to agree to take a
less price. No doubt there are fishermen who have been in my
employ for many years, who, if they knew I was losing by the fish,
would not have asked the money; but others would take all they
could get, whether it paid me or not.
10,014. But, upon the whole, you think that if that system were
introduced by a large firm, there is reasonable prospect of it being
carried out?-So far as the fish-curer is concerned, there would be
a certain profit to him.
10,015. But do you think it would be practicable so far as both
fishermen and fish-curer are concerned?-I think it would
pauperize a number of the fishermen because there are a great
number of them in debt, and in the transition from the one system
to the other they would require to pay up their debts, so far as their
means would go, and their dealings would be less.
10,016. Do you think the fishermen under that new system would
not be able to get credit to a certain extent?-I don't see how some
of them could. For instance, take the year 1869. In 1868 the
fishings were almost a failure. Our total catch in Unst and Yell
amounted £1607, which could not average much over £4, 10s. to
each fisherman. That year we imported meal and flour to the
amount of £1824, cost price per invoice; we paid in cash for rents
to Major Cameron, Mr. Edmonstone, Lord Zetland, and others,
£1600; and we expended on fishing-boats and fish-curing
materials £780,-being a gross amount of outlay of £4223
against the fishing, the return for which, as said, was only £1607.
10,017. Does that return apply to your establishment at Uyea
Sound only?-It applies to our entire business in Unst and Yell.
10,018. Besides £1607 from fish, have you any idea what income
the fishermen would receive that year from other sources, such as
for sales of stock?-Yes. We can produce the rolls of cattle sales,
which show what cattle were sold in the spring; and we would
have a good idea what amount of fat cattle were sold in the rest of
the year.
10,019. In whose custody are these sale rolls?-We have them;
we conduct the sales. Then, in the year 1869 the crops were lost,
which made 1870 a very trying year on this island, and more
especially to Spence & Co. We imported that year about £2300
worth of meal and oatseed, and £173 of potatoes; and we paid the
same amount of cash in rents.
10,020. Were these importations distributed among the fishermen
and others at your different shops in the island?-Yes, among the
fishermen; but we had to supply many who were not fishermen, or
see them starving around us.
[Page 243]
10,021. That importation of meal, and the sale of it on credit,
would, I presume, leave the bulk of the fishermen considerably
in debt?-That year it would; except those who had saved some
money.
10,022. But with those who were in debt, that further credit would
have the effect of leaving them much more in debt than they were
before?-Of course; very much more.
10,023. Is that now in the course of being paid off?-Yes; it is
coming back to us very fast, in consequence of more successful
fishings and better crops.
10,024. Do you not consider that the necessity under which you
lay of importing the meal, and advancing it upon credit to the
fishermen, was the result of the system, which has been prevailing
here, of long settlements, and the undue amount of credit which
has been allowed to the men?-I have here a letter which I wrote
in 1860, and which represents my views on that subject, and I
may as well read an extract from it 'If we don't give unlimited
advances, we are told the fishermen will be taken from us. I have
now been nearly twelve months in this place (that was after I came
first to Uyea), and have closely watched the system pursued by
proprietors and others, and certainly agree with you that it is it bad
one; but I know I have no right to make any remarks or trouble
you with my views on that subject, further than to state that I
cannot see any good that will result from burdening the tenants
with debt to the fish-curers. It has been my desire, ever since I
knew anything about Shetland tenantry, to see them raised in
the social scale, and made thoroughly independent, both of
proprietors, fish-curers, and others, and I have felt deeply
interested in the -- properties, no doubt from being more
in contact with them; but when the poor among them are in
terror of the proprietors alike, and bound by forced advances to
different fish-curers, alas for liberty! and more offered to any
fish-curer who will advance more on them. This is not calculated
to raise any tenant in self-respect.'
10,025. You speak in that letter of 'forced advances:' what were
these?-What I meant by that was this: the proprietor's ground
officer or agent in the island, for the time being, told the tenant
that he might fish for me this year. I found that he had only £2 or
£3 to get, and the ground officer told that tenant that if he did not
go to me and get an advance for his rent, he would take him from
me and give him to any other man who would advance the rent.
That looked very like forced advances.
10,026. That, however, was in 1860?-Yes.
10,027. Was that a common practice in those times?-I believe
that 13 years ago truck existed ten times as much as it does now.
10,028. But in 1860 was it a common thing for a proprietor's
ground officer to threaten to remove a tenant unless he could get
his rent from the fish-curer?-Yes; to threaten to remove him
from the ground unless he could pay his rent, or to move him
from a fish-curer who would not give him an advance for that
purpose, to some other fish-curer who would do so.
10,029. Have you known instances of fishermen who were treated
in that way?-Yes. I was referring to cases of that kind when I
was writing that letter. It was my own experience at the time
when I was at Uyea Sound as a fish-curer trying to engage any
men who came to me. Many came to me and fell into debt,
because I found that many of them required more from the shop
than their fishing amounted to; and then I advanced rent after
rent, until I saw that I was advancing to my own ruin.
10,030. After advancing rent in that way, have you been informed
that they were to be transferred to another fish-curer unless their
rent was still advanced by you?-Yes; in more cases than one.
10,031. Were you so informed by the landlord, or by his factor?-
It was generally by the tenant himself, when he came seeking the
money.
10,032. Were you ever informed of it by the landlord or any one
representing him?-No.
10,033. Had you any reason to believe the story which the
fishermen told you?-Yes. I believed them, because I knew of
the men being taken away sometimes.
10,034. Was that after they had made such statements to you, and
although they were in your debt?-Yes.
10,035. Were you able in these cases to make any arrangement
with the new employer to pay up their debt?-In some cases we
did that, but in other cases we did not; oftener we made no
arrangement.
10,036. Why did you not try to secure your debt by arrestment?-
Because the proprietor's right of hypothec would cover the man's
whole effects.
10,037. But you might have arrested the money in the hands of the
new employer?-He might probably have advanced more than the
man might catch in the season before he commenced; so that there
was nothing to arrest.
10,038. Did you never try to secure your debt in that way?-I have
tried it, but have been unsuccessful.
10,039. Have you, within the last 12 years, met with cases of that
sort, in which the proprietor endeavoured to coerce you to pay his
rent?-Yes. I have had cases where the tenants came asking me
for money, and I told them I could not advance them any further.
They would then go away, and come back and tell me that the
proprietor's agent or ground officer had informed them that they
must get their rent, and that must pay it; and that if I did not do
that, they would not be allowed to fish for me.
10,040. Did that system continue until 1868?-No; it prevailed
principally under the ground officership of Mr. Sinclair, who acted
for Mrs. Mouat, in Unst.
10,041. You did not find that system in existence on other
estates?-I only came in contact with the tenants on that property.
10,042. Did no other tenants fish for you up till 1868?-No;
except Lord Zetland's.
10,043. Have you been obliged in that way to pay rents for Lord
Zetland's tenants also?-No, not for Lord Zetland's.
10,044. Only for the late Mrs. Mouat's?-Yes.
10,045. Did that practice cease when the estates passed to Major
Cameron?-They only passed to him at her death last year.
10,046. That was after you had got your lease of the estates?-
Yes.
10,047. And since you have had the lease, of course, your control
over the tenants has been direct?-Yes.
10,048. And no forced advance of that kind could be required?-
No; but, of course whatever the tenant might earn at the fishing,
we had still to pay his rent. That was one advance we could not
get clear of. The rent was due, and we were responsible for it to
the proprietor. The great drawback in the trade is the debts, and
the advances given that are never repaid.
10,049. Is it not in your own power to stop your advances
whenever you think the debtor is unable to pay more?-No
doubt; but suppose a family in the month of January who have
no food in the house: there are eight children and a wife, and an
aged mother, perhaps, we stop giving them supplies of meal, you
can easily guess the consequences.
10,050. If you were to stop their supplies, might they not obtain
them by having recourse to some other merchant or fish-curer?-
Yes; but it would be upon the same principle-upon credit again.
10,051. And you would lose your debt?-We would lose our debt,
and credit, and everything.
10,052. How would you provide for the transition from that state
of things to a system in which the payments would be monthly?-
I think it would take greater penetration and wisdom than I can
boast of, to solve such a ticklish point of political economy. I am
afraid pauperism would first increase.
10,053. But would it not be better for the men in the long run?-I
don't think it would be any better for the man who has plenty of
money now, and a good many of them have that. Such a man
comes and buys from us if he wants; and if he does not want, he
goes where he likes. If he has got a cow to sell, and we can give
him as good a price as another, he will perhaps sell to but he is
quite his own master as to where he will [Page 244] sell. But a
man with a very small amount of stock, and no credit, and no cash,
and no crop after February, would be in a very difficult position
until the month of June, when he began to fish.
10,054. Can men during these eight months not get some sort of
wages for labour?-The only kind of work in Unst is at the
chromate ore quarries; but they can only employ a very limited
number of men compared with the population, and those who
work in the quarries in winter generally work in summer also.
Their men are usually employed for the whole year and there is
no room for the fishermen to be employed there.
10,055. Have you any interest in these chromate quarries?-No.
10,056. Is it not your opinion, from the facts you have stated, that
the population of the island is rather greater than it is able to
maintain?-I think that if the inhabitants of the island were to
work the ground they have, they could take food enough out of
Unst to feed the 2800 or 3000 inhabitants that are in it.
10,057. Would it not be one effect of the improvements which are
being carried out under the management of your firm, to enable
the parties to tide over the transition period between the present
credit system and the cash system?-Perhaps I may be too
sanguine; but my hope is, that if we succeed in carrying through
the improvements which have been begun, in six years' time every
tenant on the island will be independent of every man, and then he
may make his bargain as he likes.
10,058. Do you calculate that it will take six years to wipe out
existing debts?-Yes; and that will require renewed exertion on
the part of every man. I don't think the idleness of the winter
will do it; I think we all want a stimulus.
10,059. Does it not occur to you that this want of energy arises in a
great degree from the feeling which the people have, that at the
worst they will get credit from the merchant?-There is no doubt
that has a very bad effect upon them.
10,060. So that the removal of that sense of dependence might be
the very stimulus you desiderate?-It might.
10,061. And your own system of monthly payments would
probably be the very best way to apply that stimulus?-I believe
it would; and I believe that with average years of fishing, if we
could employ the population for six months in winter at profitable
wages, we might get into the money system more easily.
10,062. In what way would you suggest employing them for six
months at profitable wages?-I don't know; I am afraid the winter
fishing cannot be improved.
10,063. And there is no other kind of employment in which wages
can be given?-No; unless Government would improve the fishing
harbours-that would be a very good way or by giving us more
roads. This system, which has obtained so long in Shetland, seems
to be natural to the soil; for when the roads were made, the
whole of them, except the one in Unst, were made under the
superintendence of a captain of the Navy and a captain of the
Royal Engineers; and we could not do without credit-I suppose
you would call it truck-although the cash was being paid every
month. We had to appoint a contractor in every district to supply
the workers with meal, and the officer in charge of the roads
granted checks to the men.
10,064. Was not that done in consequence of the absence of shops
in the district?-No; they had to go to the shop in the district and
get the meal. In every district where the works were being carried
on we had a contractor engaged to supply meal to the workers.
10,065. Do you mean a man keeping a shop?-We selected a man
in the district, and the officer in charge passed orders on him for
meal to A, B, or C, and he deducted that from their wages every
month, and paid them the balance in cash.
10,066. How long is it since these roads were made?-In 1849 and
1850. It was after the failure of the potatoes in 1847.
10,067. Were the funds for making these roads obtained from
Government?-No; Government only gave the superintendence
of a staff of sappers and miners.
10,068. Was the work done by local assessment?-No; the
money was raised for relieving the destitution in Shetland by the
Edinburgh Board, of which Mr Skene was secretary.
10,069. Then that was really an enterprise undertaken for the relief
of a temporary destitution?-Yes.
10,070. And the meal was distributed by way of relieving pressing
want?-Yes.
10,071. You said you were in possession of the sale rolls of all the
sales for some years back?-Almost them all. It was I who first
started sales in the North Isles. I began them at Cullivoe when I
was there. There never had been any sales until I got the lease of
the property from Major Cameron.
10,072. Could you give me a note of the principal purchasers at the
sales during the last two or three years in Unst?-I could; but the
principal purchasers at the sales for the last two or three years have
been ourselves and Mr. Jeffrey, a farmer and cattle-dealer. At the
last sales, I suppose, we bought two-thirds of the whole cattle sold.
10,073. Were these generally purchased in order to liquidate an
existing debt?-No; a great many of the men-those who have
most cattle to sell-have always most cash to get. That has been
my experience. A poor man is generally poor every way, and he
generally gets into the worst fishing-boat.
10,074. How does that happen?-He has begun poor, and been
unfortunate, and, some may think, unlucky.
10,075. But why should he get into the worst fishing-boat?-There
is no assignable reason for that, but very often you will find that
certain men who have been unfortunate just keep together.
10,076. But the fact of a man being unfortunate perhaps arises
from him not being so good a fisherman or so good a man of
business as the others?-Yes. He just gets into association with
men of the same class as himself, on the principle of birds of a
feather.
10,077. But, I presume, you very often do purchase either privately
or at these sales, cattle from some of your debtors, and enter
them in your account?-Very often. A great many of the cattle
purchased at the sales are not paid for until I settle with the men in
my district. Some men-not tenants of ours at all, but tenants of
Lord Zetland-have been asked to come and take the money after
the sale, but have said, 'I am not at all requiring it just now; I only
want my money once a year.' They have said that to me more than
once this year, so that I could not get clear of the money for the
cattle which I bought.
10,078. Were these men running an account with you?-Very
little. They come perhaps once a month and see how the account
stands, and get perhaps a pound or so in cash.
10,079. A statement was made in Edinburgh to the effect that
when a merchant bought a beast from some of his debtors in that
way, he had really the fixing of the price himself?-That is a very
serious mistake; I must say that twenty years ago that was the case,
but I think the first break to that in the North Isles was, as I
have already said, my commencing a cattle sale. The very year
I commenced the cattle sale, as I can prove by documentary
evidence, the price of cattle rose fully one-fourth, and ever since
there has been an auctioneer appointed to conduct the sales in Yell
and in Unst. I have invariably told every tenant in my district, that
if they could do any better with any produce-such as butter, eggs,
cows, or fish-than by bringing them to me, they were quite at
liberty to do so. I said that to them over and over again.
10,080. Why did you tell them that so often?-Because I had an
opportunity of telling it to them every time they came with their
produce and asked the price. A man might come with a jar of
butter one day, another jar a few days afterwards.
10,081. But did they not know without being told, that they might
go where they thought they could get a better price?-I thought
they did; but they might [Page 245] think that as we stood in the
relation to them of landlord, as well as fish-curer and merchant,
we might force them in some way; and I wanted to do away with
that impression, both as to the fishing and as to the purchase of
produce, because, whatever control we might have had the power
of exercising over them, we did not wish it to be exercised, or to
have it felt that there was such a power in our hands.
10,082. In point of fact, I suppose that by far the greater number of
the fishermen in this island sell their fish to you?-Yes. There is
only one boat that does not fish for us-Mr. John Johnston's.
10,083. Are there not some of the crews at the winter fishing who
do not fish for you?-I cannot speak so well about the winter
fishing, because it is carried on in small boats, and the men take
their fish anywhere they like.
10,084. Do they sell their winter fish to you for ready money?-
Yes, for ready money, or for goods if they want them, whichever
they like. We buy in North Yell just now all winter, and pay the
cash just as the men want it, or give them goods.
10,085. There is no Faroe fishing carried on by your firm?-No.
10,086. About how many tenants are there altogether on the estate
that you hold in tack on this island?-I think about 150.
10,087. About how many of them are engaged in fishing in your
boats?-The whole of them, I think, who do fish for us.
10,088. Do you buy a large quantity of kelp?-I buy almost all that
is bought in the islands.
10,089. How many women are employed at that?-They vary very
much, because they just do it as they like themselves.
10,090. Is there a separate rent charged in your lease for the kelp
shores?-It is included in the whole rent.
10,091. Do you pay a higher rent to Major Cameron under your
lease than you receive from the fishermen?-Yes; we pay about
£200 more than we receive, but that is for the scattalds and kelp
shores, which the tenants have the use of on certain conditions.
10,092. Do you think the scattalds and kelp shores alone are
worth that increased rent?-I have often wished that we had never
entered into that lease, but when we have entered into it we must
try to make the best of it.
10,093. Then you think the scattalds and kelp shores are not worth
so much?-They might be worth that if they were taken from the
tenants and developed into sheep-walks, but they are not worth
that to us.
10,094. Have you not the power of making them into sheep-walks
for yourselves?-Yes; but we have not done so.
10,095. The tenants still have the use of them upon certain
conditions?-Yes.
10,096. Do they largely avail themselves of that right upon making
that payment?-I am sorry to say that we lose about £100 a year by
them.
10,097. Do you mean that you do not collect £100 a year which
you are entitled to?-I say that when we have charged every tenant
under us the full amount of scattald charges, we are £100 short of
the rent under the lease, as our books will show.
10,098. Is that loss upon the rents and scattald charges, or upon the
scattald charges only?-It is upon the rents and the scattald united.
In short, we charge the tenants £1000 for rent and scattald charges,
and we pay Major Cameron £1100.
10,099. The kelp is gathered by the women upon these shores and
burned by them, and bought by you at so much per ton?-Yes.
10,100. Is the settlement for the kelp generally managed by way
of accounts in your books in each woman's name?-No. They
generally settled with at the time when they bring the kelp. We
may have supplied them with meal or other necessaries while they
were preparing the kelp, but as soon as they have prepared the
settlement is at once made.
10,101. These supplies are entered in a ledger account under the
woman's name during the time the kelp is being prepared?-Yes.
10,102. And then the amount of kelp is entered at the close of that
account as settling it?-Yes.
10,103. How many women are so employed?-Perhaps about 120
or 130. I think we have made about 40 tons of kelp from Unst, but
we get a good deal from Yell too I think about 20 tons.
10,104. Does the number of women you have given include those
in Yell?-No; I think there may be about that number in Unst.
10,105. What price per cwt. do you pay for the kelp?-It is 4s. this
year.
10,106. Is it the same price, whether paid in goods or in cash?-
There used to be a practice of giving from 4d. to 6d. less in cash
than in goods. The reason for that was, that the price allowed was
generally the extreme value of the article; but for the last two
years we have got 5s. per ton more for kelp, and we have made no
difference on the price to the women whether it was taken in cash
or in goods. That was the case more especially last year. Almost
all that we got from Yell was paid in cash, and paid at the same
rate of 4s.
10,107. Did the women take the price in cash or in goods?-They
took it almost all in goods, except those from Yell. They could
only come over at times when they had about a ton or two ready,
and they took back what goods they wanted, and the balance in
cash.
10,108. How do you arrange with your beach boys?-We have one
man engaged who cures for us by the ton. He finds the hands; we
do not employ them.
10,109. You do all your curing by contract?-Yes.
10,110. And you have nothing to do with the payment of the
persons employed at it?-I often pay them when the man who
has the contract gives me an order to pay. He gives them a line
to me to pay them so much and I do so.
10,111. Is that payment made at the shop at Uyea Sound?-Yes,
10,112. Is it made in goods or in cash?-It is just as the case may
be. Of course, if the man has taken anything it is deducted; but if
he has not taken anything he gets his cash.
10,113. Have the people who are employed in the curing got
accounts in your books in their own names?-Yes.
10,114. Do you mean the men employed under the contractor?-
Yes; they have their own accounts.
10,115. Do you know how much wages they receive from the
contractor?-Not until he gives me an order at the end of the
season, and then they are paid. They are paid as soon as the
work is over.
10,116. But during the season they are running an account in your
books and getting supplies?-Yes, but to as limited an extent as
possible. We don't like to give them goods; we rather like to give
them money at the end of the season, because if we are liberal in
that way, they generally overdraw their accounts.
10,117. But the line you speak of, which you receive from the
contractor, is only given at the end of the season?-Yes.
10,118. He does not give them lines when they want supplies?-
No.
10,119. Why does he not pay them himself?-At one time, some
years ago, I used to give the curer cash to pay his men; but I found
I was minus any advances I had given to them in the course of the
season, because they did not come back to square up when they
got their cash, and yet it was necessary for me to give them some
things in order to let the work go on.
10,120. Could you not leave it to the contractor to make these
advances?-It is quite optional. There is nothing compulsory in
this arrangement at all.
10,121. The men don't need to come to your shop for the advances
unless they like?-Not at all. I don't want them; I would as soon
pay them in money as goods.
10,122. And the contractor could do so?-Yes. He does so in
some cases. I suppose those who bring orders to me are those who
want it in that way. Very likely the contractor pays some that I
never see at all.
[Page 246]
10,123. Do you suppose that the whole payments he makes are
not made through you?-I don't know that they are. There is no
arrangement to that effect.
10,124. What is the contract price per ton for curing?-16s., and
we supply the implements and materials, and the beach. That is
just for his work, putting them from the shores to the beach; and
we take them from there to the shipping port.
10,125. In settling with your fishermen, what allowance do you
make for the cost of curing the fish per ton of dry fish?-We
deduct that from the price we have got for the fish, in estimating
what we are to pay our fishermen. That sum includes expense of
curing, cost of salt and materials, and removing the fish to the port
where they are to be delivered.
10,126. What other deductions do you make before fixing the
sum that is to be divided between you and the fishermen?-We
generally make no other deductions. We expect that the £3 should
cover everything but I don't know that it does so now, because
wages are much higher than they used to be.
10,127. What was the current price paid to fishermen here last
year?-8s.
10,128. What was the price of dry fish per ton?-The current price
was £23.
10,129. Deducting £3, that would leave £20: was that the sum
on which you calculated the division between you and the
fishermen?-Yes.
10,130. How do you calculate the price for the green fish?-We
calculate 21/4 cwt. of green fish for 1 cwt. dry.
10,131. That would only be 18s. per cwt?-Yes; but we give
skipper's fees, and a great deal of perquisites to the crew, which
will come to another shilling. The men have lines of their own,
and the skipper always gets a fee.
10,132. Then the 2s. extra is intended to cover that?-Yes, and our
profit.
10,133. Do you allow yourselves a commission?-Yes; and I think
we require it. The hire we take for the boat never covers the price
of the boat. I may say that, in my experience, boats which
originally cost £20 stand us in £32 when they are worn out, after
we have got credit for all the hires charged on them. There is
therefore a considerable loss on boats. The hire cannot nearly
meet current expenses, much less pay for the original price.
10,134. How do you mean that the boat stood you in £32?-I give
sails every second year, and a new sail costs about £2, 10s. Then
there is the carpenter's work every year in repairing the boat, and
there are oars and everything to be kept up. Taking these things
into consideration, the result of the debtor and creditor account of
some our boats was that they cost £20 originally, and when worn
out they had cost £32.
10,135. What was the hire of these boats?-48s. a year-8s. a
man. That was credited to the boat.
10,136. What is the life of a boat?-It is sometimes only a year.
10,137. But that is when she is lost?-No; we sometimes build
what appears to be a very good boat, and the carpenter says she is
first-class; but when the fishermen take her to sea they find she is
very bad, and they throw her on our hands, and we cannot use her.
10,138. Does that often happen?-Very often.
10,139. Then the hiring of boats is a very unprofitable business?-
It is; indeed I should be very glad if the fishermen would buy their
own boats; and if the Government would assist them in that, it
would be a very good thing. The life of a good boat may be about
twelve years.
10,140. Is it not an exceptional case where the boat is thrown up at
the end of the year?-No, it is very common at the end of one year
or two years.
10,141. But when a boat is a good one at first, and pleases the
fishermen, she is calculated to last for twelve years?-Yes, and
she may last a little longer with increased repairs.
10,142. And the calculation that a boat when worn out costs you
£32 is based upon the supposition that she does last for about that
period?-Yes; but the £32 is perhaps an exceptional case: that was
the highest I ever had in my experience.
10,143. Is the current price of fish according to which you pay
your men ascertained by communication with other merchants in
Shetland, or is it the actual price, which you get upon your own
sales?-There is generally a communication among the curers as
to what they think should be the price. Every man states his own
opinion freely.
10,144. And communicates the amount of his own sales to his
neighbours?-I don't know that he communicates his sales, but he
states his idea with regard, to what the price should be.
10,145. Do you sell mostly in this country, or in Spain?-It is
chiefly ling that we sell, and they go to the west of Scotland and
Ireland. We ship them direct to the Clyde, to merchants in
Glasgow and Greenock.
10,146. Have you ever shipped any to Spain?-No.
10,147. Do you know whether the fish shipped there are picked
fish?-I understand they are all picked.
10,148. Is a higher price obtained for them than for those sold in
this country?-I suppose so; it is chiefly cod that are sent there.
10,149. The men, I understand, have nothing to with fixing the
current price of fish?-No.
10,150. Do they sometimes complain that they have not?-I have
offered to the fishermen, not since Spence & Co. commenced, but
I did repeatedly before, to cure for them at 5 per cent., and furnish
everything.
10,151. Were they to sell the fish themselves?-I was to act as
their salesman, and disclose all to them if they would give me 5
per cent.
10,152. But they did not agree to that?-No; they thought the safer
way was to go on as we had been doing. The fish-curers don't
have that love and affection for one another which was described
in the evidence in Edinburgh. There is plenty of opposition among
them.
10,153. Except at the time when they are fixing the current
price?-I cannot say that there is any better agreement then. I
cannot agree at all with that part of the evidence which was
given before.
10,154. But you always do agree about that to a certain extent?-
No; we sometimes do not agree, and we have angry disputations
in our letters. We say the price should be a certain thing in our
opinion, and Spence & Co. have not agreed with all the fish-curers
yet, for we give 10s. per 100 cwts. as an encouragement or bounty,
and something to help the men to pay things they have in company
at the station; but none of the other curers have given that, and
they have been very hard upon us about it. We have given 2s. per.
ton more for every ton of green fish we have received than any
other curer in Shetland, so that we don't always agree.
10,155. Will you give me a note of your fish sales last year, and
the prices?-I will do so privately. [Hands them in.]
10,156. You have now produced to me the lease between Major
Cameron and your firm for twelve years up till Martinmas 1880:
are all the stipulations about improvements contained in it?-Yes;
they are to be, pointed out specially from year to year, but the
arrangement is, that there is to be so much expended every year
upon improvements.
10,157. But were the regulations for the tenantry separate from this
lease and issued to them?-No; the rules and regulations for the
sub-tenants are appended to the lease.
10,158. Were these made known to the tenants?-Yes; they were
given to them in a different form. They are amended rules to those
which were first issued by Mr. Walker.
10,159. Any tenants not complying with these regulations may
be removed by you?-Yes; they will get their leases unless they
comply with them, and we can remove them at any time.
10,160. What is the length of the holdings of these who comply
with these regulations?-It is the same as our own lease, twelve
years from 1868.
10,161. How many of the tenants have adopted these [Page 247]
regulations?-I should say that, to a greater or less extent, they
have all made a fair commencement in the improvements and
rotation of cropping.
10,162. But you have absolute power to remove them if they do
not comply with that?-We have. The property is absolutely let to
us, and we can absolutely turn them out if they do not comply with
the regulations. The lease is clear enough upon that point.
10,163. Have you had occasion to exercise that power?-Not in
any case.
10,164. Have you threatened to do so?-Not so far as is known to
me.
10,165. There is no obligation on the tenants, under this lease,
either to fish for you or to sell the produce of their farms to your
firm?-No; it is long since I read the lease, but I don't think there
is anything of that sort in it.
10,166. In point of fact, is there any understanding on the part of
the tenants that they are bound to do so?-No.
10,167. You have told them that they are under no such
obligation?-Yes.
10,168. But, in point of fact, most of them do sell their fish to
you?-They do.
10,169. And, in point of fact, most of them do sell their eggs and
butter to you?-I think the great bulk of them do, but I cannot tell
so well about the butter and eggs. We buy fully as much now at
Uyea Sound as we did in any season before the company
commenced.
10,170. And a number of the tenants also run accounts for
shop goods with your shops?-Yes; I think most of them do
so.
10,171. Do you think that having this lease is a facility to
you in carrying on your business?-I rather think that in one
sense it is the reverse, because at first it was so unpopular
among the tenants, in consequence of dividing the farms in the
first instance, and setting them on to work and cultivate and
drain and clear the ground of stones, and to introduce a rotation
of cropping, that it placed us as traders in the island to a great
disadvantage, and created an unhappy feeling between the
tenants and ourselves. I can say that for the last four years, I
have spent about one-thirteenth of my time among them, just
going from tenant to tenant three or four times every year, in the
south parish.
10,172. Over what portion of the island does this lease extend?-It
includes nearly one-half of the island. I have been compelled in
some cases to use hard measures with the tenants to get them to
alter the crop which they had put in, and to bring the land into
rotation. That looked a very severe thing to them; but we stood
between two fires, as it were.
10,173. You think it would be profitable for them in the end?-I
have no doubt it will, and a good many of them are seeing that
now.
10,174. But although this lease does not contain an express
condition that the tenants are to fish for you, it gives you a
power of ejecting them?-Of course it does.
10,175. And the tenants are aware of that?-Yes.
10,176. And of course they may feel a little more unwilling to deal
with another party or to fish for him in consequence?-That may
be. I don't know what their private feelings may be, but the lease
gives us it stronger power than that: it reserves the peats, and what
could they do without peats? We have absolute power in that
respect, if we choose to put it in force, but I hope never to see that
done. We can refuse them peats altogether and scattald altogether,
and we can shut them up altogether, but I hope I will never live to
see that day.
10,177. In short, you can do anything you please with the tenants,
except deprive any one of his holding who complies with these
rules and regulations?-Yes.
10,178. The only security he has is to comply with them?-Yes.
10,179. As to the peats and scattalds, he has no security at all?-
None.
10,180. You spoke of a bounty of 2s. per ton which you allowed
your fishermen at settlement: does that not correspond with the
present which is made at settlement at other places by way of
drinking money?-They say in other places that they give
nothing of that kind, but it would correspond with that.
10,181. Do you give the men anything besides as a gratuity at
settling time?-No; we give nothing in the way of drink money.
They get what is called a midsummer bottle: that is an old custom,
and it still continues among all the fishermen.
10,182. Have you had a good deal to do in the hosiery trade?-
Yes, I have bought a good deal of it.
10,183. I understand you buy a quantity of worsted from the
spinners in Unst and sell it south?-Yes; I generally sell it in
Lerwick.
10,184. At what rates do you generally buy the worsted?-We
never like to buy anything coarser than we can give 3d. per cut for.
10,185. The weight of that, I suppose, varies?-The weight of
what we give 3d. per cut for would be about 6 cuts to the ounce.
10,186. That would be 24s. per lb.?-Yes; but the number of
ounces is not a criterion, because the less the weight the higher
the price. We have given as high as 7d. per cut for worsted, and
that should weigh 14 cuts of 100 threads to the ounce. That
would be 8s. 2d. per ounce, or more than £7 per lb.
10,187. Is not that a very high price?-Yes; but we would give
cash for any amount of that kind of worsted we could get, or for
worsted at 6d. for 12 cuts to the ounce, but very few can spin that.
It is a very fine thread.
10,188. Have you known much worsted sold at the rate of £7, 12s.
per lb.?-No, not very much, because there are very few who can
spin it so fine. It is just like a cobweb.
10,189. What quantity of worsted of that sort would it take to
make a shawl of the ordinary size? About 40 cuts?-That would
be a small shawl. I have put as high as 70 cuts of that fine worsted
into a shawl; but that was a large shawl. The usual size is 25 to 30
scores, made out of 3d. worsted.
10,190. The score refers to the size of the shawl?-Yes; twenty
scores is twenty threads or twenty stitches of the needle across
from side to side.
10,191. Is the size of the shawl generally measured by the score or
by the yard?-It is generally measured by the score when the girl
commences to knit it.
10,192. Then a shawl of that size would take 40 cuts of that fine
worsted?-No; a 21/4 yard shawl would take 60 cuts of that fine
worsted.
10,193. The worsted of such a shawl would cost £1, 15s?-Yes.
10,194. Can you give me any idea what the knitting of that shawl
is generally put in at?-The knitting of shawl of that kind should
be 25s. to 30s.
10,195. Are these shawls made in Unst?-Yes; I have got a shawl
made in Unst that cost £4, and some that cost £3, and between £3
and £4.
10,196. Would the knitting cost as much in Lerwick?-I don't
know. I generally think, as a rule, that the knitter ought to get as
much for her work as the price of the worsted.
10,197. But it is somewhat less than the price of the worsted in
these fine shawls?-Yes.
10,198. Suppose a shawl of which the worsted cost you 35s.
and the knitting 25s.-that is £3 altogether: what would that be
invoiced for to the merchant in the south?-Perhaps I am not able
to give very good information upon that point, because I have
always found these shawls to be a part of my stock which it was
very difficult to dispose of.
10,199. Do you mean the fine shawls?-No. I have generally
got shawls of that sort made upon an order from gentlemen who
happen to come down here, and I usually charge them the cost
of the work and dressing, and so on; but I have found it a very
difficult thing to sell hosiery.
10,200. Is the 25s. which the knitter gets paid to her in money or in
goods?-Almost always in goods.
10,201. And you have been calculating now upon the footing that
that price was to be paid in goods?-Yes; but if I got an order for
the shawl, I would not care whether it was to be paid for in goods
or in cash.
[Page 248]
10,202. That is because if you had got the order you would receive
a cash payment?-Yes.
10,203. Whereas, if you were selling it to a merchant, you might
have to take goods from him for the value?-It is not exactly that,
but I might not get it sold at all. My object in dealing in hosiery is
more to oblige my customers than because it is an article on which
make a profit. A great bulk of the shawls which sell for about 30s.
are made from 3d. worsted. That would be 7s. 6d. for the worsted,
and the knitting would be 8s. or 9s. in goods, then there would be
6d. for dressing, and that would be about the cost of an ordinary
shawl.
10,204. How much would that sell for in the market?-I don't
know. I have tried most of the best hosiers who deal in shawls,
and I always lost them.
10,205. Do you invoice shawls to Edinburgh?-Yes, pretty often;
but I tried to get out of it because we lost a good deal by it. I
suppose these wholesale buyers in the south do their largest trade
with the merchants in Lerwick, and they don't like to buy from
the country people in case it might operate against their own
interests.*
*Mr. Sandison afterwards wrote the following letter in
supplement of his evidence:-
'I much regret you could not make your examination in Unst
more exhaustive.
'Witnesses were asked the effects of the present system on the
morals of the people. I am of opinion their morals will compare
very favourably with any other county in Scotland; and I will say
for my countrymen, that for intelligence and common sense they
are superior to many of the same class elsewhere.
'From careful observation and considerable experience, I have
come to think that the increase of small shops acts injuriously on
the poorest of the people, leading to the practice of deceit between
man and wife, mother and child, as well as between class and
class. Many families of the poor and indebted fishermen sell their
farm produce, butter, eggs, etc., and even meal and corn, out of
their own crop, to some of these small shops for trifling luxuries of
no real benefit; and, worst of all, most of these small shops sell
spirits surreptitiously, it is believed, to a greater extent than the
licensed dealer. As a rule, in my experience, the man who sells his
produce in quantity to the large buyer or fish-curer is independent,
and has cash in hand and bank; while the man who dribbles away
his produce through these shops, only giving his summer fish to
the fish-curer, is in debt and poverty. While one man can take up
£4 to £6 for the one article of butter, in cash at settlement, the
other, with as many milch cows, has nothing. The monopoly said
to exist here has not reduced these shops; there are fourteen shops
in Unst.
'The interests of the small dealer is <only one,-his own>. The
interests of the fish-curer and larger dealer is the people's as much
as his own, he must supply all their necessary wants, pay rents, and
carry them through with food, at least in unsuccessful seasons;
their independence is his gain, their poverty his ruin, by incurring
debts, in many cases never paid. This is bad; but in my opinion it
is not this, nor barter, call it truck if you like, that has kept
Shetland so far behind, but the utter neglect of the soil, and
slovenly farming, for the last 100 years. I don't think 100 acres
have been added to the cultivated ground by tenant crofters, while
in that time the population has increased more than one-third; in
place of adding, I am sorry to say that in many cases there has
been a most destructive system of reducing going on, by delving
down hill for ages until the tops of many fields are wasted to the
rock. I have seen places where considerable extents was lost in
this way; and for draining and clearing out stones, that was
unthought of. For this state of matters, both proprietors and
tenants are to blame. Proprietors, in my opinion, have been far too
careless of their poperty, not heeding how the crofter farmed, if the
rent was paid; and the naturally indolent man reduced more so, by
neglecting to increase and improve his farm during the long
winter, when he could do little else. Then the breeding and rearing
of cattle has been utterly neglected by the small tenants: we have
made a right start with that in this island now.
'In all my experience I find the best farmer (I speak of the
crofters) is never the worst fisher, and is generally out of debt;
while the bad and slovenly farmer, though an extra good
fisherman, often falls behind, indeed generally so. Of late I
have come to the conclusion that the time spent at the winter
fishing is a loss to the crofter, as I do think he can be more
profitably employed on his farm, at least until he puts it in proper
order. Not to enlarge, I consider the land question a more serious
one than the truck for Shetland. Get our crofter fishermen to feel
and take an interest in the soil they cultivate; induce them to habits
of constant activity on their land, when not fully employed at
fishing; get them, by whatever way, to take a pleasure in rendering
the waste places of their farm productive of food for man and
beast; give them better houses; let them have every reasonable
encouragement from their proprietors, with patient continuous
oversight by those competent to give direction and advice: I would
hope for more from this than all the 'Truck Acts' in the world.
'In place of putting shackles on the fish-curers, who are trying
to develop that one branch of our industry, they ought to be
encouraged. Much capital is invested in it; and when as much has
been done to develop the land as is being done to develop the deep
sea, I am sure we will require no 'Truck Act.'
'I would like to say a word on the Rev. Mr. Smith's evidence to
price and quality of the goods sold in Unst, but may take another
time for that: enough to say just now, that he has yet to try
mine.'
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER JOHNSTON,
examined.
10,206. You are registrar of this parish, and you live at
Balliasta?-Yes.
10,207. You were formerly a fisherman, and you are acquainted
with the way in which the fishing trade is carried on?-Yes. I was
acquainted with it when I was at the fishing. It is ten years ago
since I left it.
10,208. When you were a fisherman, was there liberty for every
man to fish to any one he liked to engage with?-Yes.
10,209. Was there no restriction at all?-No.
10,210. What estate did you live upon?-On the estate of Buness.
10,211. No one there was bound to fish for his landlord or
tacksman?-No. When the late Mr. Edmonstone had the fishing
himself, I fished for him.
10,212. Were you bound to fish for him?-I was willing to fish for
him in preference to any other, because he was my landlord.
10,213. But were you bound to fish for him?-No, he did not hold
me bound.
10,214. Might you have engaged to fish for any one else, without
any fear of being turned out of your farm?-I might.
10,215. Was that generally the case throughout the country?-I
believe it was, so far as I can remember. What it was long before
that I don't know.
10,216. You are not engaged in fishing now, or in any business?-
No. I have a farm from Mr. Edmonstone.
10,217. Do you deal at the shop at Haroldswick or Balta Sound?-
I just deal anywhere I find convenient, because I pay in ready
money.
10,218. You don't keep an account?-No.
10,219. Do you prefer that way of dealing?-I do.
10,220. Do you get better bargains in that way?-It may be that
there is not much difference, but still have the privilege of
choosing where I am to deal.
10,221. Where do you deal in your ready-money transactions?-
Chiefly with Spence & Co. at Balta Sound.
10,222. What do you pay there for meal?-I am not, in the way of
buying meal. I get it from my own farm.
10,223. What do you pay there for soft goods?-I have not had any
lately.
10,224. Do you go to Lerwick for them?-No; but sometimes I
send to Lerwick for some tea and other articles.
10,225. Why do you not get your tea from Spence & Co?-I get it
sometimes from them, and sometimes from others.
10,226. Why do you send so far as Lerwick for it?-Because we
might get it a little cheaper there. We can get very good tea at
Lerwick for 2s. 6d. a lb., while the cheapest here is about 3s. or 2s.
8d.
10,227. Is the 2s. 6d. tea that you get in Lerwick as good as the 3s.
tea which you get here, or better?-I think it is much about the
same.
10,228. Is there anything else you send to Lerwick for?-No.
10,229. What else do you get from Spence & Co.?-Any small
thing I require-principally tobacco. I get twist tobacco for 31/2d.
an ounce.
10,230. What else do you get?-Nothing worth mentioning.
10,231. Then you buy nothing from Spence & Co. that is worth
mentioning except tea and tobacco?-I sometimes buy a little
sugar. It is fine white sugar at 6d. a lb. I have also bought sugar
from Mr. William Johnston. It was of the same price and quality.
I have never got it from Lerwick.
[Page 249]
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM GILBERT
MOUAT, examined.
10,232. You are a partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I am.
10,233. You manage their business at Baltasound along with Mr.
Thomson?-Yes.
10,234. You were in business on your own account for a good
many years before the formation of that company?-Yes, for
eighteen years at Baltasound. I was not extensively in the fishing
then, but I had a shop.
10,235. Were you present during the examination of Mr.
Sandison?-Yes.
10,236. Do you concur generally in what he said?-Yes; I don't
think I could correct or add anything to it, for I think he has given
just such a statement as I would have given myself.
10,237. Do you entertain the same opinion about the possibility of
an improved mode of conducting business here?-I do.
10,238. You have arrived at the same conclusion with regard to the
expediency of a monthly pay if it could be introduced?-Yes;
fortnightly or monthly.
10,239. You settle with the fishermen at Baltasound?-Yes; I have
settled with the greater number of them there for the last four
years.
10,240. In 1867, before the formation of the firm, had you
fishermen in your own employment here?-Yes.
10,241. Before 1868 Mr. John Spence carried on business at
Haroldswick as a fish-curer?-Yes.
10,242. And, I understand, the accounts of both the Haroldswick
fishermen and the Baltasound fishermen are now kept in your
books at Baltasound?-Yes. They are transferred from what is
called the Haroldswick fisherman's ledger to the general ledger.
We enter the amount of advances at Haroldswick into the general
fishing ledger, and give the men credit in that ledger for the
amount of their fishings.
10,243. Does that general fishing ledger show the amount of
balances due at the beginning of each year as well as at the end?-
Yes. [Produces fisherman's ledger.]
10,244. Are the shop accounts entered in this book in full, or is
the summation merely transferred from another book?-These
accounts [showing] are just taken from what we call the
fisherman's ledger at Haroldswick, containing the fishermen's
accounts for the season.
10,245. How do you do with the fishermen who deal in the shop at
Baltasound?-We have a shop ledger in which the details of their
transactions are entered. Here [showing], and for eighteen
pages back, you will find the Baltasound fishermen. Then here
[showing] is the account for the rent, which we pay for the men to
the Earl of Zetland. I collect Lord Zetland's rents here for Messrs.
George and Arthur James Hay, the factors, and remit them to them
when collected.
10,246. Have you the shop ledger?-Yes. [Produces it.]
10,247. Each fisherman has his account separately kept in it?-
Yes.
10,248. I suppose few of them care to keep passbooks?-Some of
them keep pass-books over the whole season, but others of them
do not. Here [showing account in shop ledger] is a sample of the
transactions for this season. The amount of that account is carried
into the ledger, but the credits due to the man do not appear in the
shop ledger.
10,249. Do you generally find the men applying to you for cash
early in the year, before the fishing begins?-Not often. If they
are requiring a few shillings they may ask for it, and get it, but I
cannot say that they ever ask for much.
10,250. I see here an entry on January 5, 'To biscuit, 1s. 2d.:' what
quantity of biscuit would that be?-I suppose it would be 4 lbs. of
what are called cabin biscuit.
10,251. 'Tobacco, 1s. 1d?' -That would be a 1/4 lb. at 31/2d. an
ounce and the man got 1d. off by taking a quantity.
10,252. 'Tea, 11d.,:' is that the best quality of tea?-Yes. We
have cheaper tea than that at 8d. and 10d.
10,253. Are Shetland people, I understand, are very particular
about their tea?-Yes; and they are very good judges of it.
10,254. I see another entry on October, 28 ' To meal, 2s. 10d.?'-
That would be 16 lbs., or half a lispund.
10,255. On October 5 the meal was 5s, 9d., so that there had been
a fall between that date and October 28?-Yes. There is often a
rise and fall in the price of meal.
10,256. Where do you get your meal?-Generally from Aberdeen,
from Glenny & Cruickshank, and Mr. Mess, and Mr. Walker, and
Mr. Tulloch, all in Aberdeen. We generally get our flour from
Messrs. Tod, Stockbridge.
10,257. I see an entry, 'To meal per meal-book:' is that a separate
book which you keep for meal?-Yes; it is a book we generally
keep in the cellar, where the meal is weighed out. The meal is
marked there at the time the people get it, and then it is entered as
a whole in the ledger.
10,258. That is done to save repetition of entries in the lodger?-
Yes. This [showing] is one of the accounts referred to by Mr.
Sandison, kept by six men on the station as a company, and it is in
that account that we give them credit for 2s. per 20 weighs. We
put it to their credit there, and then charge the men only for the
balance in their accounts.
10,259. How is that credited in their account?-It has not been
done yet. The crew have not settled.
10,260. But how would it be entered?-Just for an allowance.
10,261. You take the whole quantity of fish delivered, and
calculate what the allowance is upon that?-Yes; on the quantities
delivered of cod, tusk, and ling. We don't allow it upon the saith.
10,262. Is the saith an inferior item in the season's fishing?-It has
been rather low for some years back until this year, but it has been
rather better.
10,263. I see, under January 12, in Andrew Mouat's account,
'Paraffin oil, 5d.' How much oil was that?-About 51/2 gills, I
suppose.
10,264. What is the selling price of paraffin oil at your store?-2s.
a gallon.
10,265. How many gills are in a gallon?-32.
10,266. So that the price which Mouat paid for his oil was a little
more than 2s. 6d. a gallon?- Yes, but the bottles are not all alike.
Some may hold 6 gills, and some only 51/2. We generally fill the
bottle for 5d. when they bring it to us.
10,267. Where do you get your paraffin oil?-From Young's
Paraffin Light Co.
10,268. Do you generally import it once a year or so in the
beginning of winter?-No; we generally get 1 or 2 or 3 casks by
the steamer now and then, as we require it.
10,269. When did you last get a supply of oil from that
company?-I don't know if we had any last season at all;
because we got 3 or 4 casks early in the spring, which served
us throughout the season.
10,270. What was the price of it?-I think the last we bought from
Young & Co. was 1s. 5d. or 1s. 6d.-I think 1s. 5d. per gallon; but
then there is double freight to pay on it.
10,271. Where do Young & Co. deliver it?-At Granton.
10,272. What is the freight from there?-I think it is nearly 2d. per
gallon; but we have had the oil much dearer from Young & Co.
than 1s. 5d.
10,273. Have you ever got any from Rowatt & Son?-We have
had oil from a person named Williamson, but not direct. I think
the last we got from him was through an agent in Leith.
10,274. Where is Williamson's place?-I cannot say; only saw the
name on the cask. We got it from Mr. J.B. Leask.
10,275. Do either of these books which you have produced contain
the accounts of persons employed in your curing business?-Yes.
10,276. Do you contract for curing at Baltasound [Page 250] and
Haroldswick?-No; we employ the people ourselves; and their
accounts are entered generally in the Baltasound book.
10,277. I see an account of Thomas Mouat, beach boy, February
17, 1870, 'To Baltasound shop account £2, 0s. 3d., by fee £1, 10s.,
by balance to account, 10s. 3d.,' which is carried to next account,
and he is charged 6d of interest on it. Then November 17, 'To
Baltasound shop account £1, 10s. 8d., by beach fee £1, 15s., by
balance to account 6s. 5d.' Has he been working for you this
year?-No.
10,278. Has that balance of 6s. 5d. been settled?-No.
10,279. Where is the boy now?-He is working as a blacksmith.
10,280. Do you charge these boys interest when they are in
debt?-Yes, we have done so; but only for the last two years.
10,281. Has that been with the view of reducing their balance?-It
will rather increase them.
10,282. But has it been done in order to lead them to incur less
debt?-I wish it would; but in many cases I believe they cannot
help themselves. It is not their wish to incur debt
10,283. Does it generally happen that a beach boy is in your debt
at the end of the season?-Not generally.
10,284. I see that John Miller has a balance of 4s. against him in
1870, and a balance of 9d. to get in 1871?-Yes.
10,285. Robert Gardiner has a balance of £1, 19s., against him in
1870. Has he not settled that yet?-No; he is in Glasgow.
10,286. Thomas Abernethy, beach boy, got a fee of £2. 10s., and
15s. for drying fish for 30 days, and he had to receive a balance of
1s. 01/2d. at the end of the year?-Yes.
10,287. John Jamieson, beach boy, had a beach fee of £2, 5s., 39
days drying fish at 5d.-16s. 3d. and there is a balance of 11s. 11d.
against him upon his shop account?-Yes.
10,288. Nicol Thomson had a beach fee of £1, and he had a
balance of 5s. 3d. against him for 1870, and has since got supplies
to the amount of 5s. 61/2d?-Yes. He was only employed for part of
the season.
10,289. Was he working for you last year?-No.
10,290. John Harrison has a balance in his favour of 2s. 101/2d.?-
Yes.
10,291. Archibald Thomson, in 1870, had a balance against him of
17s. He settled again the day before yesterday, and got a balance
in cash of £2, 6s. 31/2 d?-Yes. He was a fisherman last year.
10,292. He had £9, 1s. to get for his fish?-Yes; and he had credit
with another boat. He went with one boat for a time in place of
another man who was laid up.
10,293. In the account of Charles Sandison, fish-curer, his shop
account at Uyea Sound was £3, 2s. 11d. in 1870, and £3, 11s.
101/2d. at Baltasound, and there also a balance of rent of 11s. 6d.
charged against him. The balance against him at November 12,
1869, and carried to new account, is £4, 5s. 31/2d. The interest on
that is 4s. 3d., and the balance against him on March 18, 1871, was
£9, 8s. 51/2d.?-Yes.
10,294. He has since put in £6, 3s. 9d. and £1 to his credit, the first
being the price of a cow, and the other a payment made by his son,
or carried from his son's account into his?-Yes, by his order.
10,295. That was done with the view of reducing his debt?-Yes;
the son was living with the father, and it was done to reduce his
father's debt.
10,296. This account has not been settled yet?-No, and this
year's rent has not been debited to the account. We have not yet
taken it out of the land ledger.
10,297. Has he been working for you?-No. He is an old man,
and I think his son intends to take the farm, and to join him.
10,298. There is £4, 12s. 6d. of rent debited to him in 1870. To
whom was that rent payable?-To Spence & Co. That is one of
the farms included in their lease.
10,299. In the account of Thomas Peterson he is credited with a
beach fee of £5, and he had a balance against him in 1869 in 6s.
101/2d. The balance in his favour at settling in 1871 was 1s.
41/2d., but in that year he had been fishing, not regularly, but
occasionally, with certain boats?-Yes. He has been fishing
regularly this year, but his account is not settled yet.
10,300. This account [showing] contains the total beach fees paid
by you in 1869 and 1870, being £91, 12s. 8d. in 1869 and £115,
12s. 8d. in 1870?-Yes.
10,301. What are the entries on page 251?-That is a page which I
am using as a cash-book in settling up with the men at the present
settlement.
10,302. It shows the amount paid in cash to each man?-Yes.
10,303. The total is £162, 10s. 21/2d., which been paid to thirty-two
men?-Yes.
10,304. That does not show the men whose balances were the
other way?-No.
10,305. Would there be a larger number whose balances were the
other way?-There would be great deal more money out, whether
the number of men were larger or not.
10,306. Have you any dealings in hosiery at your shop?-We do
very little in that way.
10,307. When you do deal with a woman for hosiery, do you open
an account in her name?-Sometimes. Of course if she gets
worsted from our shop we have to debit her with it, and see that
she returns it.
10,308. Does she generally take out goods for the amount of her
knitting?-Sometimes.
10 309. Have you a special book for these accounts?-No, not
now.
10,310. Did you use to have a woman's book for them?-Yes; we
had a small ledger when we commenced. It was not exactly a
woman's book, but the hosiery accounts were generally kept in it.
10,311. Did it contain accounts for butter and eggs?-No; we did
not keep accounts for them. Of course if a man comes in with 16
or 20 or 30 or 40 lbs. of butter, that goes to his credit if he wishes
it to be settled for in that way.
10,312. You do not take any share in the management of the shop
at Haroldswick?-I sometimes take a little.
10,313. I have been told to-day that Mrs. Spence's hosiery
purchases are settled for with goods got in the shop there?-Yes.
10,314. Are Mrs. Spence's purchases of hosiery and worsted
made by her on account of the firm?-No. She generally sells for
herself what hosiery she buys.
10,315. Then, when the hosiery is paid for by means of goods
supplied from the shop at Haroldswick, how does that enter the
books of the firm?-She is just debited with the amount paid to
so and so.
10,316. Are these goods debited to her at cost price?-No, at retail
price.
10,317. And the firm has no connection with the purchase or sale
of that hosiery?-No.
10,318. Where do you get your supplies of tea?-We get them
from different places.
10,319. Do you get any from R. & C. Robertson, Lerwick?-No,
I don't think we have got 20 lbs. of tea from them since we
commenced business in 1868. We get our tea from Aberdeen,
Glasgow, and London.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, WILLIAM WILLIAMSON, examined.
10,320. You are a fisherman at Snarravoe, and hold a bit of land
on Lord Zetland's property?-Yes.
10,321. To whom do you pay your rent?-To Mr. Mouat, the
commissioner for Mr. Hay, and Mr. Hay is the commissioner for
the Earl.
10,322. Does Mr. Mouat enter the rent in your account?-Yes.
10,323. Do you fish for Spence & Co?-Yes. I have fished for
them since they became a company, and before that I fished for
Hay & Co.
[Page 251]
10,324. Are you quite at liberty to fish for any person you
please?-I suppose I am.
10,325. And to deal at any shop you please?-Yes.
10,326. Do you generally deal in Spence & Co.'s shop?-Yes,
because I find I am as well served there as I would be at any other
place.
10.327. Snarravoe is in the south of the island, and you go to the
shop at Uyeasound?-Yes.
10,328. Is that the nearest shop to you?-There are some small
shops nearer, but I find that I am as well served at that shop as I
would be at any other shop I could go to. I have very little
dealings in any other shop.
10,329. Do you keep a pass-book?-I had a passbook at one time,
but it was not kept regularly, and I don't have one now. I found
that the keeping of it made very little difference.
10,330. Were you ever employed in fishing at a fixed price for the
whole fish taken during the season?-Yes; but we were generally
paid it little more than the fixed price.
10,331. When were you engaged in that way?-About a year or
two years ago by Spence & Co. We engaged at 7s., and we were
paid it few pence more-I think 3d. more.
10,332. Did you ask for that?-No; they gave it freely, because the
fish turned out a little better than they expected at the time when
we made the engagement for the fishing.
10,333. If they had turned out a little worse, would the men have
taken less for their fish?-No doubt they would have looked for
their bargain; but it would have been just in them to have taken it
little less in that case, as well as to get a little more when the price
was high.
10,334. Do you think the men in this district would be content to
have a bargain of that sort as a rule?-I don't know; because
sometimes the markets go up, and the men may get a little more
for their fish if the price is settled at the end of the season.
10,335. Therefore you think it is better to have the price fixed at
the end of the season, when you see how the markets have turned
out?-Sometimes it would be.
10,336. But if the markets were to fall towards the end of the year,
might the fisherman not gain something if he had engaged at a
fixed price?-He would; and that was the kind of engagements we
had in the herring fishing in Hay & Co.'s time.
10,337. Have you gone to the herring fishing?-Yes, but we were
always paid a little more than we agreed for. We were paid 10s. or
11s., or more, per cran.
10,338. Were you always successful at it?-Only sometimes. That
fishing has been a failure for the last few years.
10,339. But you had no arrangement there except to get so much
per cran for all the herrings you took?-That was all.
10,340. Were you running an account in the shop while the fishing
was going on?-Yes.
10,341. Don't you think you would be better off to have your
money paid down once a month or so, as the fish are delivered,
and be able to pay for your purchases as you get them?-I don't
know. I suppose the goods are all the same price, whether I pay
for them when I get them or not.
10,342. Don't you think you would be able to buy your goods
cheaper if you could pay for them at the time?-I don't know.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER SMITH, examined.
10,343. Are you a fisherman at Westing?-I was formerly a
fisherman, but it is about twenty years ago since I gave it up. I
am now curing fish for Messrs. Spence & Co. at Westing.
10,344. Do you cure by contract?-Yes. I get 10s. per ton of dry
fish for my trouble.
10,345. Do you employ a number of beach boys and men in the
curing?-Yes; about eight. They get fees varying from 30s. up to
above
10,346. Do you keep a book in which you enter the payments you
make to them?-No. I do not keep any book except a pass-book,
in which I enter the fish that are delivered to me.
10,347. Are the wages of these boys paid by you?-Not wholly by
me, but I pay them in part.
10,348. But you are their employer, and are liable to them for their
wages?-Yes.
10,349. Do they take part of their wages in goods from the
shop?-When they want them in that way, they get a line for
their money to the shop.
10,350. Do you give them a line when they want goods?-Yes. I
give them a line stating the amount that Mr. Sandison is to give
them, either in goods or in money.
10,351. Is that entered against you in the books at Uyea Sound?-
Yes.
10,352. Before paying them their wages, do you ascertain how
much has been taken out by them in that way?-No.
10,353. Then how is the balance of their wages settled? Is it paid
directly by the company?-It is paid by the company. I state in my
line what fee I give them; and what they may give them over and
above that I cannot tell. I am not responsible for that.
10,354. The line you give to the company does not state so much
money, 5s. or 10s., that is to be allowed to them in goods or in
cash, at a particular time, but it simply states the fee that you have
agreed to give them at the end of the year?-It states the balance
they have not actually got from me. If they want a certain amount
at any time, I give them a line; or if they ask the money from me,
then I give it to them, and they get a line to Mr. Sandison for the
balance.
10,355. Do you sometimes give them money yourself?-Yes;
when they ask for money they get it.
10,356. But more commonly they get a line to Mr. Sandison for
goods?-More commonly for the greater share of it.
10,357. How many lines do they get in the course of a year? Is it
one or more?-Generally one at the end of the season, when the
fish have been dried.
10,358. Then how do they get their goods in the course of the
season?-I cannot tell as to that, for I don't know.
10,359. But how does Mr. Sandison know how far to give them
credit in the course of the season, before he gets the line from you,
which you say you give him at the end?-Mr. Sandison no doubt
knows what the amount of a beach fee will be; but I cannot say as
to that. I am not responsible for any excess he may give them.
10,360. Then all you do with regard to these out-takes at the shop
is to give the boy a line at the end of the season, telling Mr.
Sandison what the agreed-on fee was?-Yes, and what balance I
have not already paid him.
10,361. And in that line you make no mention of what he has got
at the shop, because you don't know?-No.
10,362. In that way of working, is there not a risk of the boy asking
more at the end of the season than is really due to him, and of your
overpaying him?-Mr. Sandison might overpay him, but I could
not.
10,363. Why?-Because I fix the fee, and I know what I have
given him, and then I only give a line to Mr. Sandison to pay the
balance.
10,364. But he might have got the whole amount of his fee in
out-takes from Mr. Sandison, before you gave him payment in
cash at the end of the season?-He might; but I am generally well
acquainted with the boys, and have confidence in them that they
will not run an account of that kind.
10,365. Suppose a boy were to come to you in July, and asked for
5s. in cash, would you be likely to give it to him?-Yes, I would
give it.
10,366. Might it not happen that at that very time he had run up an
account in the shop for £2 or £3?-If he did so, I would expect Mr.
Sandison to make me acquainted with it.
[Page 252]
10,367. Did Mr. Sandison ever give you intimation that a
particular boy was in debt to such an amount?-No.
10,368. So that these boys can get a cash advance from you, and
credit at the shop at Uyea Sound at the same time?-Yes, if they
choose. That might be done for a certain time, but I don't think it
could go on very long without being known.
10,369. I suppose it is not very likely that you would give him
much money?-He could get it all in money if he asked for it
when the work is done, but not before.
10,370. But you would not pay him the money until you had
ascertained the amount of his account at the shop?-I never
asked that.
10,371. Is your work done about September?-Yes.
10,372. Suppose in September a boy were to come and ask you for
the whole of his fee in money, would you pay it down to him?-I
have done that.
10,373. Did he tell you that he had no account at the shop?-Yes;
and that proved to be the case.
10,374. Has that happened often?-Not often. It has happened
once with regard to the whole, and oftener with regard to a part.
10,375. Have you an account at Uyea Sound for supplies to
yourself?-Yes.
10,376. The contract price of your curing is entered in that account
against your supplies?-Yes; and I am paid the balance in cash.
10,377. And out of that balance you have to pay any balances that
are due to the beach boys?-Yes.
10,378. How much money will you require to get at the end of the
season, in order to settle with your beach boys?-Generally the
money which the beach boys get from me is paid to them during
the season.
10,379. When do you settle at the shop?-In December or January.
I have not settled yet for last year.
10,380. Therefore you have not settled with the beach boys?-All
the beach boys are all settled with in November.
10,381. How much money did you require last November in order
to settle with them?-It is Mr. Sandison who settles with them at
the end of the season, and I don't know how much money they had
to get.
10,382. Do you generally have the same beach boys for some years
in succession?-Yes. I have had some for six years, and some for
shorter periods.
10,383. What proportion of your payment for curing do you get
in money? Do you get most of it at the end of the season?-
Sometimes. In some years we have to buy a good deal of meal and
other things; but in a year such as the present, when we have had a
good crop, I get the most of it in money. Besides, I can get money
any time when I ask for it. I have never been refused it within the
last twenty years.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HARPER, examined.
10,384. You are a fisherman to Messrs. Spence & Co. at
Haroldswick?-Yes. I fish at Norwick, but the books are at
Haroldswick.
10,385. Have you a bit of land from Spence & Co?-Yes.
10,386. You pay your rent to them, and deal with them at
their shop at Haroldswick?-Yes, I get all my goods there.
10,387. Do you deal anywhere else?-No.
10,388. Why?-For want of money.
10,389. How do you want money?-Because I don't have it.
10,390. Have you had bad seasons?-I never was in debt before I
came to Spence. & Co.
10,391. How did you get into debt with them?-From bad seasons
in the first place, and from overpriced goods. Meal is over-priced,
for one thing. My father has dealt twelve years with ready money;
and I have seen the advantage he has got by it, and what I have
lost.
10,392. Who is your father?-William Harper: he is a fisherman
too; he has been master of a boat for about forty years to Mr.
Spence.
10,393. How do you know that the meal is over-priced which you
get from Messrs. Spence's shop?-The first meal I got from
Spence & Co. was one boll, when I began to fish for them four
years ago. My father got one half of the sack, and I got the other: I
was charged 27s., and he was charged 24s. 6d.
10,394. Why was that?-I had nothing to give Spence & Co., but
my father had ready money. That was in the spring before I
commenced to fish.
10,395. You did not settle for the meal until the end of the year?-
No.
10,396. Consequently they were long in getting their money from
you?-Yes.
10,397. Was it not quite fair that they should get little more for
lying out of their money all that time?-Yes; but 2s. 6d. was too
much to charge for interest. That was only on meal, but I could
make more profit on groceries and soft goods too.
10,398. Have you anything more to say about the meal?-That is
the only thing I can recollect about it.
10,399. Have you bought your meal in the same way ever since?-
Yes, until last year, when I had as much as could supply myself.
10,400. How many bolls had you to buy in the course of the
year?-From 4 to 6.
10,401. Do you think you lost 2s. 6d. a boll on each of these?-I
have no doubt I did, for want of ready money.
10,402. What have you to say about the other things?-That was
somewhat further back, but at any rate I have been out of pocket
with Spence & Co. ever since commenced with them. I was a
skipper where I was before, and got a skipper's fee; but the fee
which I got from Spence & Co. is not so much as I got formerly. I
fished for John Johnston for 11 years. For the first two years I was
only a young fellow, and was to be paid according to my fishing.
After that, I got promise of £4 of skipper's fee, and when he saw I
was getting on so well he always gave me £5 afterwards. Then I
was forced-at least I believed I was forced, although I know
now that I was not-to go to Spence & Co. from John Johnston,
because he got his warning and could not keep me, but had to sell
his boats or boat.
10,403. When was that?-In 1867 or 1868. He had two boats, and
he sold the one I was fishing in.
10,404. How were you forced to leave him?-Because Spence &
Co. got a tack from Mr walker, and I and all the north parish
understood that I had to leave my employer and go to them.
10,405. Were you not told that you were quite at liberty to fish
either to Spence & Co. or to any other person?-I was never told
that until I heard Mr. Sandison say it. I don't think it was told in
the north of the island; at least I was not told about it.
10,406. Were you ever told that you had to fish for Spence &
Co?-That was rather hinted at.
10,407. Who hinted it?-Mr. Mouat. I was rather hot-tempered,
and so was he, and when we were both hot he gave me a hint about
that.
10,408. Was that in 1868?-I think so.
10,409. I suppose you conveyed the hint to a good number of
others?-Yes. I sat down and wrote a letter to Mr. Walker, telling
him what had been said; and I got an answer from him, saying I
was to work according to the rules I had in my lease, and that no
one could interfere.
10,410. Is there anything more you have to say?-There is nothing
particular; but I may say that there are a good many skippers here,
and a good many poor men, who will never be asked to come
forward, and will never get the chance.
10,411. They may come forward if they like?-They don't care
about coming forward, and there are some of them whose stories
are far worse than mine.
[Page 253]
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, CHARLES GRAY, examined.
10,412. You are a mason at Balliasta?-Yes.
10,413. Have you been working lately in the chromate of iron
quarries?-Not for the last few years. I think it is six years since
I was there.
10,414. How were the wages paid at these quarries when you
were working at them?-Mr. Mouat was superintending then.
10,415. When did he cease to superintend?-I think it is only
about a year back, or two years.
10,416. Was there a change in the company then?-Yes. There
was a new company formed then, and new people to work the
quarries.
10,417. Who was working the quarries when you were employed
there?-There were different agents during the time I was there;
but Mr. Mouat was superintendent.
10,418. You don't know who the company were?-I think the
company were just the proprietors.
10,419. Were your wages paid to you in cash?-Yes; we got them
in cash from the cashier, the late Mr. Charles Mouat,-not the
present Mr. Mouat.
10,420. Where were they paid to you?-Sometimes at his house,
and sometimes at the vestry, which was a public place.
10,421. But always in cash?-Yes, always in cash, since there was
a cashier appointed.
10,422. Did you not sometimes get lines?-No; I never got lines. I
cannot say for others, but I never got one.
10,423. Did you never see a line?-Not to my recollection.
10,424. Did you ever hear of lines being given?-I did hear about
that, but I could not vouch for it being true.
10,425. What did you hear about it?-That some parties had got
lines for part of their wages.
10,426. What were they to do with the lines?-I don't know.
10,427. What did you understand they were to do with them?-I
understood the line was to be paid at the place where it was sent
to.
10,428. Was that at the shop?-Yes.
10,429. And to be paid in goods?-I did not know that.
10,430. Did you not know whether there was any practice of that
sort?-No, I did not know about it myself.
10,431. Have you heard that there was?-Yes; but it is a long time
back.
10,432. I understood you had been employed there lately?-No.
10,433. Who is paymaster there now?-Mr. Gardner. I think the
men are paid at his house.
10,434. The company have no shop?-No.
10,435. And Mr. Gardner has no connection with any shop?-
None whatever.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, GILBERT WILLIAMSON, examined.
10,436. Did you receive a citation some days ago to attend here?-
There was a citation handed to me not bearing my name.
10,437. It bore the name of Peter Williamson, storekeeper,
Haroldswick?-Yes.
10,438. Is there any person named Williamson who is a
storekeeper at Haroldswick except yourself?-No.
10,439. Did you not know that that citation was intended for
you?-I could not certify that it was.
10,440. Had you any doubt that it was?-I had some doubt.
10,441. How could you possibly have any doubt when there is no
other person of that name there who is a storekeeper?-Because
my name in the register is Gilbert, not Peter.
10,442. Did you think that was a sufficient excuse for not
attending this Court?-Yes.
10,443. Did you receive a citation to-day?-From a boy.
10,444. From a messenger from me?-Yes.
10,445. Did he tell you he had been sent from here?-He said he
got it from Mr. White.
10,446. In reply to that, you wrote saying that you did not think
that was intended for you either?-No.
10,447. Or that you received it too late, and that you did not know
whether you were bound to come?-Yes. I took witnesses to see
what time it was when I got it.
10,448. Are you the principal storekeeper to Spence & Co. at
Haroldswick?-Yes.
10,449. Have you anything to do with the purchases of hosiery
which are made at that shop?-We don't deal in it.
10,450. At the shop you do not; but Mrs. John Spence, who is not
able to attend here to-day, has some dealings in hosiery?-We
never see her buy hosiery in the shop, to my knowledge.
10,451. Do you not know that she buys hosiery in her house?-I
hear that she buys hosiery, but I never saw her do so.
10,452. Have you ever received lines from her directing you to
supply goods to parties from whom she has bought hosiery?-I
have received lines from her to supply value for so much, but not
stating that it was for hosiery. It might have been for anything.
10,453. Have you any of these lines?-No, I have none.
10,454. In what form are they drawn?-Suppose it was to Ursula
Johnston, the line would be, Pay to Ursula Johnston the value of
2s., and it is signed J. Spence.
10,455. Do you always honour these lines by supplying the party
named in them with goods up to the value of the sum named in the
line?-Yes, with whatever they ask for.
10,456. Do you receive many of them?-Sometimes we receive a
few, but not very many; at least I do not consider it very many.
10,457. What would you consider very many?-100 in a week; I
would consider that very many.
10,458. How many is it that you do receive?-I never counted
them.
10,459. Would there be twenty in a week?-Sometimes not one
half of that, sometimes more, and some weeks none at all.
10,460. Is that according as the business is brisk, or the reverse?-
So far as I know, it is. I am under the conviction that for a month I
have had no advances to pay at all.
10,461. Is there any other way in which parties who sell hosiery to
Mrs. Spence, or who you have reason to believe sell hosiery to her,
are paid out of the shop?-I don't quite understand the question.
10,462. Have you any other transactions with Mrs. Spence?-
None with her.
10,463. Do you know whether any other parties who sell hosiery to
Mrs. Spence have accounts at the shop-I could not certify as to
that.
10,464. Have you got any of these lines?-I have none of them on
my person.
10,465. Have you any of them in the shop?-Yes.
10,466. Were they left there by parties to whom you had supplied
goods?-Yes.
10,467. Did you read the citation which was sent to you?-Yes.
10,468. Did you see that you were required to bring with you
specimens of lines given or received by any party connected with
the company in the purchase of hosiery?-I saw that written there.
10,469. Why did you not bring them?-Because they were not
mine to bring.
10,470. Whose were they?-Spence & Co.'s.
10,471. Why did you not ask leave to bring them?-Because the
members of the firm were all here.
10,472. Could you not have brought them with you, and asked
leave of the partners of the firm here to produce them?-That
never occurred to my mind.
10,473. Do you make the same answer with regard to the citation
to produce all papers, books, and accounts, [Page 254] showing
the nature of the company's dealings with fishermen or knitters?-
Yes.
10,474. You could not bring these here without asking leave of the
members of the firm to produce them-I could not ask their leave,
because they were here.
10,475. Could you not have brought the books here and asked
permission then to produce them?-I did not think it was right for
me to remove them from the office until I had asked leave to do
so. There is one of the books here, the fisherman's ledger, which
has been spoken to by Mr. Mouat.
10,476. How was that book brought here?-Mr. Mouat sent for it.
10,477. Why did you come here yourself without asking leave of
the members of the firm?-Because I was summoned.
10,478. Was it not just as necessary for you to ask leave to come
yourself as to ask leave to bring the books?-No, I came when I
was sent for.
10,479. Let me recommend you in future to pay more attention to
a legal citation when it is served upon you, or you will get into
trouble. I cannot allow you any expenses for attending here, in
consequence of the way in which you have behaved.
*The following specimen of the lines issued by Mrs. Spence
was afterwards produced:-'Haroldswick, 13th Novr. 1871
Messrs. Spence & Co. pay Andrina Boyne the sum of one shilling.
1s. J. SPENCE'
The line is crossed, 'Entd. G.W.'
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON (recalled), examined.
10,480. Are you agent at Uyea Sound for the Shipwrecked
Mariners' Fund?-I was agent, but there are no members now.
10,481. Have the men ceased to subscribe?-Yes. I think I have
not sent up a return for five or six years, not having anything to
send.
10,482. Are any of the members of your firm agents in Unst for the
Society?-No.
10,483. Do you know anything of a man named Jamieson who was
formerly at Uyea Sound, and who was warned out by your firm?-
That would be Thomas Jamieson who was at Uyea Sound until
three years ago.
10,484. Was he removed from that place shortly after you took
your lease?-About a year after.
10,485. He had a shop there?-Yes.
10,486. Is there any stipulation in the lease about shops on the
property?-It is so long since I read it that I don't recollect.
10,487. Have you any letters on that subject from Mr. Walker or
from Major Cameron?-I cannot tax my memory with receiving
any.
10,488. Is it understood that no shops should be opened upon the
estate?-That was the understanding.
10,489. And was it in following out that understanding that
Jamieson was removed?-Yes.
10,490. Do you know whether a man named John Johnston
was removed at Haroldswick in carrying out the same
understanding?-I believe he was. He has now a shop near
the same place where he was before, on an adjacent estate.
10,491. He removed to Lord Zetland's land?-Yes.
10,492. Is that the case in which the shop was removed bodily
across the road?-I believe so, but I cannot speak to that from
seeing it.
10,493. I fancy the understanding you mention proceeds upon the
footing that you ought, in consideration of the rent you pay to
Major Cameron, to have the monopoly of the shop business in the
island, so far as he can give it to you?-Yes; that no doubt was the
intention.
10,494. And that would be one of the considerations upon which
you pay so high a rent?-Yes. I may state that one strong reason
why we took the lease at first was, that we believed it was
depopulation and sheep farming that was meant, by what we
saw taking place in other places; and we also were under the
impression that the small tenants could not exist without the
scattalds, or if they should have them to pay for; and while, of
course, I do not say there was not some selfish design, because we
expected to make a living, we also hoped to see them make a
living, and we were to try to improve them if we could. However
it ends, that was really our design, and the number of small shops
which existed stood in the way of that. I have known cases where
I would not give luxuries to a man who was in debt, but he would
come and get fishing lines from me, which he said he needed, and
he has sold them to other shops in order to supply himself with
superfluities. I know one case in which I gave a woman a quarter
of a boll of meal, when I would not give her either tea or sugar,
and she went and disposed of a portion of the meal to a neighbour
in order to get tea, she being then irrecoverably in debt.
10,495. Then you mean to imply that this monopoly was secured
partly to save yourselves from debts of that sort, and partly to keep
the people in their holdings?-Yes; to keep them from being
turned out of the island.
10,496. But also partly to prevent them, when they got into your
debt, from spending their money and their produce elsewhere?-
Exactly. I may mention that North Yell we had only three fishing
boats this year, and when I settled with them I paid them over
£200 in cash. We had no store there, except a small one at the
beach or fishing station, to supply them with the necessaries they
wanted and the fishing materials. We don't cure by contract there,
but by beach men, splitters, and boys; and I paid every one in cash
as being the simplest and shortest way.
10,497. Is there any arrangement between your firm and any other
firm or fish-curer, by which you take over the debts of men who
change their service?-There is no arrangement. We try to do that
if we can, but we find it rather uphill work.
10,498. Have you ever succeeded in getting a merchant who
has engaged a man that formerly fished to you, and who left in
your debt, to pay up the man's debt?-Since the company was
formed we have had no experience of that, and it would be
scarcely possible for me tax my memory just now with cases
which had occurred before; but I have no doubt there were cases,
in which I tried to do that, whether I succeeded or not.
10,499 If a man left Mr. Mouat, for instance, and was in his debt
and came to you, would you pay up the debt which he was due to
Mr. Mouat?-Yes; but it was only a peradventure; there was no
standing rule on the matter, that I am aware of.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, THOMAS ANDERSON,
examined.
10,500. You are a fisherman at Haroldswick, and you have fished
for some years for Spence & Co?-Yes.
10,501. You have been running accounts with them: during that
period, and taking your supplies from them?-Yes; the whole or
nearly the whole of my supplies.
10,502. Before that where did you get your supplies?-I had
more money to work upon then, and I got my supplies from John
Johnston and from Mr. Mouat at Baltasound, and sometimes from
Mr. Spence.
10 503 Did you pay them generally in cash?-Yes.
10,504. How does it happen that you have not been paying in cash
during the last four years?-Because have a small family, and I
have more responsibility.
10,505. Your expenses have been increased, and have not the cash
in hand?-Yes.
10,506. Was it for that reason that you were obliged to run
accounts at the shop at Haroldswick?-Yes.
10,507. Do you think you are as well served in respect of quality
and price of goods as you were formerly?-I get the same quality
of goods, but not at the same price. If I were taking cloth or
cotton, or any other [Page 255] kind of goods, and paying cash for
them, I would get them 2s. 6d. per £ cheaper than if I were having
them marked down for a twelvemonth.
10,508. Have you tried both ways within the last two years, to any
great extent?-I have not paid cash to any great extent within that
time.
10,509. But you have bought perhaps £2 or £3 worth in the course
of the year?-Yes.
10,510. Did you get a discount for cash?-Yes.
10,511. Can you tell me the cash price and the credit price for
meal?-Not exactly; but I know that if I was buying a boll of meal
for cash, I would get it 1s. 6d. or 2s. cheaper than if I was having it
marked down for a twelvemonth. I have also got cotton 1/2d. or 1d.
per yard cheaper when paying for it in cash than if it had been
marked down. If I had cash to the amount of £20 in the course of
a year, I am certain I could save £2 upon it at any rate.
10,512. If you were paid for your fish every month as they were
delivered, do you think you would be able to pay in cash, and so
pay off your debt?-I think I would, if there were good fishing
years.
10,513. If you had a bad season again, where would you get your
supplies?-We are not to be looking for bad seasons always.
10,514. Nor for good seasons always?-No.
10,515. You have had several good seasons now, have you not?-
Yes.
10,516. How do you sell your winter and spring fish?-We can get
cash or goods for them.
10,517. How much will you make for your winter and spring fish
in an ordinary year: may it be £4 or £5?-Sometimes it may be as
much as that, but not generally.
10,518. Could you not make more if you had larger boats?-We
have never tried that; but I don't think it.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JAMES HAY, examined.
10,519. You are a merchant in Haroldswick?-I was. I sold
groceries and some soft goods; but I have given up that business
now and turned farmer.
10,520. Were you engaged in fish-curing?-A little. I had one
boat at one time but not now.
10,521. With what class of people was your business chiefly
done?-Just with the neighbours,-tenants and fishermen.
10,522. Was it a ready-money business generally?-It was that
system I liked. I ran some accounts; but I rather liked ready
money.
10,523. You were not extensively engaged in fishcuring, and in
that way you had no security for long accounts?-No.
10,524. Was that the only reason why you preferred a ready-money
system?-I preferred it, thinking the system would work better
once it had had a fair beginning.
10,525. Did you find that it worked fairly well with you?-I had
not enough experience of it to say that, because the other system
had been so long in existence that it was difficult to make an
exception.
10,526. You mean that the credit system has prevailed so long, and
is so deeply rooted in Shetland, that it was difficult to carry on
business in any other way-Yes.
10,527. Have you formed any conclusions on that subject which
you are now prepared to state?-My own conviction is, that if a
ready-money system was once in operation, and had a fair start, it
would work better than the present system.
10,528. But how are you prepared to give it a start?-I think that
if the men were paid their money monthly or fortnightly, that
would make them feel their independence better. Perhaps they
would husband their means better; and if there were those among
them who were careless about it, they would be taught a lesson
when the year was done, which would serve as a warning for
them in time to come. There might, however, be a difficulty
in beginning such a system. I can remember, and others present
will remember it too, two or three years of bad fishing, followed
by a year of blight, when the man who wrought most anxiously
and was honest-hearted could not meet the demands upon him.
At such times, if there was no qualification or mitigation of the
ready-money system, perhaps the men might get into difficulty.
10,529. But do you not think that with that system of fortnightly
payments a respectable fisherman and tenant would get credit just
as easily as he gets it now?-I believe he would.
10,530. From a greater number of persons, and on more
advantageous terms?-I think he would.
10,531. Do you think there would be more places open to
respectable fishermen, at which they could get credit if it
was absolutely required in a bad season?-Yes.
10,532. I suppose in a bad season now no merchant would give
credit to the fishermen unless he was secure of their services for
next season?-I should suppose so.
10,533. Therefore the fishermen, as a rule, are shut up to the one
shop?-Yes, it comes to that.
10,534. Where fishermen were paid monthly or fortnightly, and
you knew a man to be a respectable man, would you, as a
merchant, have any hesitation in a bad season in giving him a
reasonable amount of credit for the support of his family?-I
would have no hesitation in doing that at all, and I have done it.
10,535. Even under the old system?-Yes, under the old system.
I have done so, from a charitable feeling for the men in their
necessities.
10,536. Did you think that in such cases you were likely to be
repaid?-In some cases I saw the urgency of the case, and I gave
the man supplies from sympathy, whether I might be paid for them
or not.
10,537. But do you think you would be more likely to obtain
repayment if there was an open system, and the whole country was
not monopolized by one or two great firms?-I think so; because
if the men were paid their money I think they would feel more
independent, and they would, so to say, eke out that money in the
most economical way, and thus be better off.
10,538. Probably, also, they would not be encouraged to run so
very much into debt with any merchant as they are at present?-
I think they would not. If the system were altered, and cash
payments introduced, I think the men would feel that they could
not ask credit to such a large extent as they do now, except in
cases of urgent necessity.
10,539. So that, if these very large accounts were not incurred, the
ordinary merchants, fairly competing, would not run so much
risk?-I think so.
10,540. Do you think the large credits given by the fish-curing
firms tend to increase the risk to the small merchant in the country
who does not engage in fishcuring?-It may do so. I know that
after the years of bad fishing, followed by a year of blight which I
have mentioned, or emergencies like that, the merchants, such as
Spence & Co., and others, had to lay out a great deal of money
from the urgent necessity of the case, and to supply families who
were almost starving.
10,541. Has it been your experience that it is difficult for small
merchants to begin business and to succeed in Shetland?-I cannot
say that I have had much experience of that.
10,542. Are you aware that some merchants have lately been
obliged to give up their business in Unst, in consequence of the
monopoly which had been obtained by a single firm?-I have
heard that stated; but I had a lease of the place where I lived, and
that did not apply to me.
10,543. You gave up business voluntarily?-Yes. I found a farm
necessary for my family, and I thought I would be better with it.
10,544. Do you think there has been a great improvement in the
condition of the people within the last twenty or thirty years?-I
think there has been.
10,545. Have they got more money in their hands?-I believe the
present year has been a very good one [Page 256] for them; but
there were some seasons, a few years back, when it was different.
A great deal depends upon the returns from the fishing.
10,546. But, apart from the variableness of seasons-because the
seasons have always been variable-and taking the state of
Shetland now and twenty or thirty years ago, do you think there
has been an improvement for the better?-I cannot say there has
been much in the way of improvement. Perhaps there has been
some.
10,547. Are the people more independent now than they were
then?-I cannot say as to that.
10,548. Do you think they are as dependent now as ever?-I
cannot say; the thing is so much fluctuating, because it depends
upon a year or two of failure in fishing and blight, and that brings
them down.
10,549. About twenty or thirty years ago were not many of the
people bound to fish for their landlords or tacksmen?-I think
they were. That was the case twenty years ago fully more than it
is now.
10,550. At that time they were actually bound by the conditions
under which they held their land?-I understand so.
10,551. But now they are told they are free?-Yes. They know
now that they are at liberty to fish to whom they please; but I don't
know if that was the general notion before.
10,552. That is, that they will not be turned out of their land if they
comply with certain regulations on certain estate
10,553. But suppose Mr. Johnston were to start half a dozen boats,
would he get them manned?-I don't know whether he would get
so many as that, but he might.
10,554. Suppose you were to start half a dozen boats, could you
get them manned?-I cannot say.
10,555. Has anybody tried that within the last half dozen years?-I
am not aware that it has been tried. I believe the men understood
that they were bound to fish for the merchants who supplied them
with boats, and who gave them supplies for their families, and they
did not like to make a change. But now, when the men know that
they have their liberty so far, I suppose they would be inclined to
go to the merchant who offered them the highest price for their
fish.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, JOHN SPENCE, examined.
10,556. You are the senior partner of the firm of Spence & Co?-I
am.
10,557. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr.
Sandison and Mr. Mouat?-Yes.
10,558. Is there anything which you wish to explain further, or to
add to their evidence?-Perhaps I may be allowed to read a letter
which I wrote some time ago, and which shows my views and the
company's views with regard to the state of matters. It is a letter
which was written by me to the other members of the company,
and it is dated 29th January 1870. It is as follows:
'Dear Sirs,-I have often spoken to you about adopting a cash
system in all our dealings with the people but none of you seemed
to think it would do. I of course would not press it in the
meantime, though I am always more convinced that it would be a
much better system than the present, and we should be gainers by
it to a very great extent, if wrought as it should be; and, depend
upon it, it will have to come in, and that not long to the time,
whether we will or not; so I would advise you to consider over it
more than you have done. It will take no more capital, but even
less than the present system does.
'If after further consideration, you still think it would not do, could
it not then be possible that the price of fish could be fixed at the
commencement of the fishing? Be assured that we will be forced
into this, whether we will or not; and certainly it would be the
proper way. The price of everything else that we deal in is
generally fixed or agreed upon when the transaction is made, and
why not do so with fish? We do it with winter fish, and what is to
hinder us to do it with the summer ones? In no other part of the
world that we know of is there such a system as we have. Look at
the herring-curers south: I believe herrings would never keep at
such a high price were it not that the price is fixed at the first. If
we were to do the same with our fish, I have not the least
hesitation in saying that we should have them all away and into
cash as fast as they could be dried, because we should never keep
them on hand when we could get a safe price for them; and the
fact that we had got a certain price before we could be safe, would
prompt us the more to seek to obtain it, and buyers would come to
terms more quickly; indeed, the moment we agreed with the
fishermen, we could at same time almost enter into a contract with
a buyer or buyers for all our catch. It is often seen what a
disagreeable thing it is to keep a large parcel of fish hanging on in
the face of a fluctuating market, the chance being oftener against
us than in our favour; and fish, in particular, being such a perishing
article, the risk is very often great. Many other things could be
brought in in support of our fixing the price of green fish when the
fishing begins. If you do not think we could begin to it alone, it
could only be a trial to correspond with all the other curers, and
see if they would not join with Hay & Co., Adie, Anderson, Pole
& Hoseason, and any other you know of, and make the proposal.
Have a meeting of all the curers, say at Voe, or wherever it might
be thought best, and try the thing. I am fully persuaded that
circumstances, and that not long to the time, will compel us to it, if
not to the cash system.
'Notice around you even and see how things are tending, and see
how opposition is creeping in-of course against us. The old
system we keep is the cause of it, to a good extent at least. Mr.
Sandison should correspond with some of the other curers; or
could you not ask Mr. Adie to come to Unst? I think we often
spoke of doing that before. I suppose he is friendly enough to us.
I am almost sure he would join us in the movement, and Pole &
Hoseason would do it, also Mr. Henderson. I trust you will give
this matter your consideration, if it should come no further.
Shetland is behind it long long way, and a new kind of political
economy is needed for it; and why should we not make the trial?-
When we formed into a company, everybody was made to
understand that there would be improvements in many things-
which I hope there is-but we should go forward, and not stand
still.'
The whole of us, as a company, were very anxious to adopt this
system, but there were a great many difficulties that came in our
way which we could scarcely control.
10,559. Were these difficulties raised on the part of the men?-
Not exactly. The men were anxious for the change, but they were
misled and influenced, and we could not get a fair start. With
regard to the old system of what may be called truck, I have
looked into my books about forty years ago, and I see that it was
the habit of all the fishermen then to prefer putting their produce
into the hands of the dealers, and leaving it there till the end of the
year for settlement. That has been altered by various things. I
object to the great number of small dealers, because I don't think
they develop the resources of the island to such a degree as they
might; but if a large firm or firms, with the tenants in their own
hands, and who are possessed of capital were to set about doing
that, the resources of the island could be far more easily
developed.
10,560. Would a large firm of that kind, engaged in fish-curing,
not make a fair profit, and carry on business in a satisfactory way,
if it left the supply of shop goods, draperies, and provisions to
other dealers? Is it impossible in Shetland to separate between the
fish merchant's business and that of the drapery or provision
dealer?-I think it is perfectly possible; and I think it would be the
proper plan, that the fish-curing and dealing [Page 257] should be
perfectly distinct; but then there would require to be special
arrangements made for that purpose, in order to get it into working
order for the benefit of all classes.
10,561. I suppose that at the summer stations, however, it is quite
necessary that the fish-curer should keep a supply of provisions for
his men?-Yes.
10,562. But when the men are in their own homes, would it not be
quite possible for them to get their supplies from the ordinary
shops supported by private enterprise throughout the country,
without having recourse to the man who was employing them?-
Of course it would; and if that system was honestly carried out the
men would benefit by it, but if the trade was carried on by small
shops, looking only to pounds, shillings, and pence, that would do
the people injury.
10,563. In what way?-Because it would increase the number of
small shops; and, as I say, these cannot develop the resources of
the island as they ought to do. They would only be drawing means
from the people which they could not apply in a proper way. For
instance, take the herring fishing: Messrs. Hay & Co. are the
principal herring-curers, and no small dealer could carry on that
business in the way they do. They are carrying it on just now at a
very heavy sacrifice, year after year, in the expectation that the
herring will come; but if Messrs. Hay & Co. were to give up the
business, and it were to fall into the hands of small dealers, there
would be nobody to receive herrings when they did come.
10,564. Is not the herring fishing carried on only from Lerwick?-
It is sometimes carried on from here, when there are herrings on
the coast.
10,565. But could not the fish-merchant make his arrangements
so as to derive a sufficient profit from the sale of his fish without
depending upon the profit that is derived from the sale of his
goods?-It would be perfectly possible to make an arrangement of
that kind; but the case of Shetland requires special arrangements in
consequence of its peculiar position. If the fish could be sent off
fresh to the market whenever the men came on shore with them,
and we had no more outlays upon them, then there might be a
profit; but, as things are now, we must lay in heavy stocks for the
incoming year.
10,566. Heavy stocks of what?-Of fishing materials and salt.
Spence & Co. must now order perhaps 150 tons of salt; and if we
did not make arrangements with the men, that would become a
loss.
10,567. But you could make arrangements with the men as early as
you please, although the men were not dealing with your shop?-
We expect the preference, because I hold, and can prove in various
ways, that the arrangement made with Mr. Walker was with a good
intention. I think co-operation in the Shetland Islands is far more
beneficial than competition. Competition between two poor
merchants does not do any good, but an immense deal of injury;
and I think that, before it cash system is entered into, a full and
thorough investigation should be made by the proprietors and the
principal dealers, in order to see how it can be made to work best
for the general good. The change can be made without injury to
any one, but it must be done a certain way, and that can only be
found out by such a special investigation as I have referred to.
Shetland is far behind, and I think the adoption of a cash system
would be the means of increasing the number of dealers who
would draw away the people's means and be a bar against
developing the resources of the country in a proper way. Some
of these dealers would be rubbed; the people would be poorer; and
no dealer even with capital would be inclined to go into the field
in such circumstances. If they did, it would need to be under some
sort of protective system; or if a dealer with capital came forward
he would have every chance of obtaining a monopoly, and he
might do great mischief.
10,568. Is there not a monopoly at present?-No, we don't want it.
We only ask the fishermen to give us the preference, and any man
who has cash to get can get it at any time he likes.
10,569. I don't doubt that; but is there any competition in the shop
trade in Unst just now?-There is no monopoly.
10,570. Is there not a monopoly on Major Cameron's estate at
least?-It is not a monopoly. I say that what we aimed at was
rather co-operation; and if we got a fair chance there was a
prospect of the fishermen, if they had money, participating
along with us.
10,571. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I
should like the men, if possible, to find boats for themselves.
It is not our fault that they don't own them.
10,572. Do you encourage them to buy their boats?-Yes.
10,573. Have you not succeeded in that?-Since we have formed
the company, we have had a great deal to contend with, and I have
been in ill health, and so many enemies have been created against
us, that with bad years we have found it difficult to go on; but I
hold, and can prove in various ways, that the arrangement we
made was for the good of the tenants.
10,574. But in what way has the opposition excited against you
prevented the men from buying their boats?-Any change in
Shetland, whether for good or ill, is sure to create opposition.
10,575. Has the opposition you have met with been among the
fishermen?-No. If they are taken in hand properly, and made to
understand matters, I have always found them quite reasonable,
but they have been badly influenced.
10,576. Has that influence been exercised by rival merchants?-It
has arisen perhaps from want of knowledge, and from parties not
knowing how such business should be carried on. It would be our
aim to allow the men to receive cash for what they earn, but there
are many difficulties which can only be rectified by proprietors
and us and the tenants together.
10,577. Do you mean that the proprietor should place the
fishermen altogether into your hands?-If the motive is good, I
think that should be the case. At least we should prefer to have
the tenants to transact with us.
10,578. But would it not be far better that the tenants should stand
on their own legs, and not be so entirely dependent on the large
companies?-It would be better; but that should be gone into with
great caution.
10,579. Don't you think the fishermen are less independent now,
when there is only one large firm in Unst to whom they can deliver
their fish, than they were when there were three competing
merchants?-They may be in the meantime, but that always tends
to harm.
10,580. What tends to harm?-Too much competition, because the
country is too poor for it. It would be far better for the proprietors
to take the men into their own hands to fish than to allow them to
go to number of small dealers.*
*Mr. Spence afterwards wrote the following letter to the
Commissioner:-
'Lest it may have been thought that in giving my evidence
before you I had approved of a monopoly, I now beg to send a
written explanation of what I meant, as I afterwards said to you I
would
'There is nothing in a dealing way I so much dislike as a
monopoly. What I wished to be understood was, that no number
of small dealers, however willing, working as they do, can
improve Shetland as it would really need; but that in order to
develop the resources of the country thoroughly, it must be done
by quite different means. There is no doubt but that a change is
needed, but it should be merged into with caution, or it will do
harm to some class. Shetland appears to be so far behind, that the
people must serve an apprenticeship, as it were, to any change for
their good. It occurred to me that some good might be done by all
the dealers in Unst amalgamating, and by their united capitals
and efforts carrying on business and the fishings on at sort of
co-operative system; but it did not seem to be in accordance with
a free-trade system, and was never tried, though, if properly
conducted, I have no doubt it could have done some good.
'In reference to the cash system, you would see in the letter I
read, and left with you, the views I have held. We have hitherto,
for various reasons found some difficulty in adopting it fully, but
we trust, ere long, to get it fairly introduced. One hindrance to us
getting it fairly wrought, is owing to the way we are bound to the
proprietors for the fishermen's rents. This also appears to those
who do not know the nature of the business, to be a monopoly;
because while we are thus bound we are compelled to a certain
extent, to restrict such men who, from extravagant habits or other
causes, cannot preserve their rents. It cannot be supposed that to
such [Page 258] men we can hand over money-perhaps to be
made a bad use of; and then, when rent time comes, have nothing
to get from them, and often not having got any rent for boats and
fishing materials. This is one thing in which there is great room
for improvement in Shetland.
'As a member of a firm having the principal business in this
land, I would beg to state that our mode of dealing seems to be
greatly misunderstood by many; and it would be most desirable
that an impartial investigation into the books and transactions of
every other dealer in the island should be made, when, I have no
doubt, matters would look something different. With regard to the
fishermen, they are not bound to fish, and they were never told so.
I, for one, have urged upon them to improve their farms, so as to
enable them to be independent of fishing, which I consider to be a
most dangerous employment in such small boats. We pay them
cash whenever they want it and have it to get. We do not
monopolize our dealings. Could a proper investigation be made
in other shops, I can venture to say that, on the whole, we sell
cheaper than any other. Besides the other dealers in the island, the
steamer runs twice a week in summer, and once in winter, from
Lerwick to here; and if the people wish to avail themselves of it,
they can get their supplies as easily from there as here. A public
roup, advertised all over Shetland, is held once every year for the
sale of cattle and ponies, where there is perfect freedom to buy and
sell. There are many things we do for the people which are not
generally known. I shall only mention one thing, to show what we
have to combat with. 1868 and 1869 the fishings were small, and
the crops so blighted, that seed and meal had to be imported,
and given out on credit to a great many, or else they would have
starved. The effects of these two years tell against both the men
and us for some time, but such occur occasionally; and it is
dealers, standing as we do, that feel it most. We hold, as you are
aware, a lease of a large portion of this island, and we are bound to
see certain improvements carried out, which, being new here,
raises a hostile spirit against us by those who are not inclined to
see our island made better. We try to introduce any other
improvements that can be thought of, feeling assured that if we
can get them accomplished, the people will be in much better
circumstances than they are. While we are pressing these
improvements, small dealers draw away the means of the people,
preventing both them and us from getting so fast on as we would
otherwise do; and while we are using all reasonable means to try
to get the indolent not to sell what, of their own farm produce, they
really need themselves, as is sometimes done, the report is often
got up that we want to monopolize the business of the island, when
there is nothing of the kind ever thought of by us.'
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, PETER NICHOLSON, examined.
10,581. You are a fisherman and tenant farmer at Haroldswick?-I
am.
10,582. You hold land under Mr. Edmonstone of Buness?-Yes.
10,583. And you fish for Spence & Co?-I fished for Mr. Spence,
but not for Spence & Co. I have not fished any for three years.
10,584. Do you devote yourself entirely to your farm now?-Yes.
10,585. Why did you give up the fishing?-Because I did not like
the sea.
10,586. Were you quite content to fish for Spence & Co. if you
had continued at the fishing?-I would have been.
10,587. Where do you get your supplies now?-From Spence &
Co. and other places, just where I can make the best bargain.
10,588. Do you work at anything besides your own farm?-Yes, I
do day's work back and forward.
10,589. Do you get your day's pay at the time?-Yes; if I ask it, I
get it.
10,590. But you do not always ask it?-Sometimes I do not;
sometimes it will be two or three days, or a week, or a month,
before I get it.
10,591. Who do you work for mostly?-For Mr. Spence.
10,592. Do you keep an account at his shop?-Not much. If I
want anything I pay the money for it.
10,593. But you have an account sometimes?-No, I never keep
one.
10,594. Is there not an account in your name in his books?-Not
very much. I never keep a note of that myself.
10,595. But there is something in his books against you?-Yes.
10,596. And sometimes your day's pay is entered in that book
too?-No. I get money for my day's wages when I have asked for
it, or if I am working for some time it is entered in the book until I
get it, but all the money I have to get is given to me when I ask for
it.
10,597. Then you just keep an account the same as fisherman
does?-Much the same.
10,598. Only what is put down in your case is a day's pay or a
month's pay for work, instead of the price of fish?-Yes.
10,599. Have you been going on in that way for three years?-Yes.
10,600. Do you settle every year?-Yes, once a year, in January or
February. I have not settled for last year yet.
10,601. Was there a balance against you at last settlement?-Yes,
about 10s. or 12s.
10,602. Therefore you had no money to get?-I had money to get.
It is now that I have about 10s. or 12s. against me; but if I wanted
goods, and paid the money, I always got them.
10,603. Do you get some money now and then?-Yes, I always get
it when I ask it.
10,604. But you don't like to ask for much when you have an
account running against you?-No. I just get as much as keeps
me.
10,605. Where do you sell the stock off your farm?-I sell them to
any man who gives me most for them, but it is few or none that I
sell on this island. There are parties who come into the island to
buy them, and usually sell to them.
10,606. Why don't you get your day's work paid to you at the
time?-I would get it if I asked it.
10,607. Why don't you ask it?-Perhaps because I am not needing
it at the time.
10,608. Where do you get your supplies from besides Spence &
Co.'s?-At Mr. Johnston's.
10,609. Do you pay the same price there?-Much about it.
10,610. Is there any difference?-Not very much.
10,611. Is there any difference at all?-I don't know; I have never
seen much difference.
10,612. Is the price of meal the same at the two places?-I always
bought meal in bolls, and paid so much per boll. I bought some
from a farmer at Haroldswick, not from Spence & Co., and I paid
him 21s. per boll for meal off his own farm. I have not bought any
from Mr. Spence this year.
10,613. Is there no oatmeal in your account?-No.
10,614. Was there a balance in your favour at the last settlement
after you stopped fishing?-Yes; I think I had £12 to get. I think
my shop account for goods that year was about £4.
10,615. Who is the farmer from whom you got that meal?-Mr.
Hugh Inkster. I gave him money for it when I bought it.
10,616. Where did you get the 21s?-I got it from some ponies
that I sold, and from some money that I had saved before I left
the fishing.
10,617. Did you sell these ponies to Spence & Co.?-I sold one to
William Manson, and another to Charleson, who comes from Yell
Sound.
10,618. Do you sometimes buy your goods elsewhere than from
Spence & Co. and Johnston?-I sometimes get them from
Lerwick.
10,619. Do you get them cheaper there?-Very little. I never send
for them unless I am going there myself.
10,620. Did you ever fish for any one else than Spence & Co?-
Yes; I fished for the late Mr. Samuel D. Hunter, Lerwick.
10,621. Were you paid by him in the same way every year?-Yes.
10,622. You never were obliged to fish for any particular
person?-No.
10,623. And you never were obliged to take your goods from any
particular shop?-No.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, DAVID EDMONSTONE,
examined.
10,624. What are you?-I am factor on the Buness estate, and a
farmer.
10,625. I understand you have had a great deal of experience of
business in Shetland?-Yes. I was nine years in business as a
fish-merchant, and I have lived in Shetland all my life, with the
exception of a year or two.
[Page 259]
10,626. Were you the writer of a letter which was quoted in the
evidence given in Edinburgh, Q. 44,511-Yes.
10,627. Do you still retain the same opinions as are stated in that
letter?-I do.
10,628. Do you think it is a correct statement at this time, that the
people do not receive in money one-fiftieth of their earnings?-In
the way I look at it, I think that statement is correct, because I hold
that when there is only a settlement once a year, in January or
February, and the man gets his balance then, that is not a cash
payment in any sense of the word.
10,629. You mean that it is only a cash payment so far as the
balance is handed over to him?-Yes; and that he has not got
cash for fish or any other produce during the season.
10,630. You don't doubt, I suppose, that a fisherman can get an
advance of cash during the season if he wants it?-No, I don't
doubt that.
10,631. Do you think that advances or payments of that nature in
the course of the fishing season ought to be made compulsory, or
to be required by law?-Yes, I have long thought so.
10,632. Do you think that would be practicable in the fishing
business?-I think so most decidedly, so far as my experience
goes.
10,633. Have you any opinion to give with regard to the system of
combining land-holding with fishing in Shetland?-I think they
must be combined to a certain extent. I have thought a good deal
and I don't think a man can earn a sufficient livelihood by fishing
alone, because the weather in the winter time is so stormy that they
cannot often get out for many days, and sometimes for weeks.
10,634. Would that difficulty not be removed to some extent if
larger boats were introduced, and the men were trained to the use
of them?-I think not. From the strong currents which run round
the shore, I think larger boats are not adapted to the coast. In fact,
I believe a good Shetland boat, well manned, would go through
what a much larger one would not go through.
10,635. Do you know that to be the opinion of the best seamen in
Shetland?-I believe it is. For instance, the large boats used in the
neighbourhood of Lerwick for herrings have often been lost when
the common six-oared boats came safely. These large boats are
more unwieldy and more difficult to handle than the small ones.
10,636. At what period are the rents on the Buness estate paid?-
At Martinmas.
10,637. Is it necessary to fix the payment at that period, from a
consideration of the settling time between the merchants and the
fishermen?-Yes. It has always been the habit to pay the rents at
Martinmas.
10,638. It is universal in Shetland, I understand, to pay the rents
only once a year?-Yes; the tenants have their holdings from
Martinmas to Martinmas.
10,639. Can you explain why that arrangement has been made? Is
it from anything connected with the fishing?-I think so. The men
would then have an opportunity of completing their fishing and
getting all the sales made which they have to make, and then they
are supposed to be in funds. I suppose that is the reason, but I
don't know.
10,640. Is it usual for the proprietor to enter into any arrangement
with the fish-curer for the payment of his rents?-We do that on
the Buness estate, and I should like to explain the reason of it. The
tenants have all been told that they are at perfect liberty to fish to
whom they like; but after they have engaged to fish to a certain
curer, we wish them to bring a guarantee from their curer or curers
for the rent of the year on which they have entered, and during
which they are to fish. One reason for that-in fact the only
reason-is, that the men do not get money payments, and therefore
a great number of them will be induced to run a heavy account at
the shop, and when we collect the rents at Martinmas we would
have nothing to get. If the men were paid in money, daily or
weekly or fortnightly, then we would make no such arrangement,
but would collect the rents directly from the men.
10,641. Then, in fact, that arrangement is made in order to limit
the credit which the fish-merchant gives to his men?-Yes; and to
secure that we are to get part of that money.
10,642. But it has the effect of limiting their credit?-Yes.
10,643. Are you aware whether that is a usual arrangement in
Shetland?-I don't know. The Buness estate was in tack or lease
to tacksmen for twelve or fourteen years before 1868, first to Mr.
Hunter of Lerwick, and then to myself. Under that arrangement
we paid a certain amount for the estate, and made the best we
could of it.
10,644. You took the risk of the tenants paying their rents?-Yes,
the entire risk.
10,645. Did Mr. Hunter and you employ most of the men as
fishermen?-Yes, most of them.
10,646. Do you think the effect of the present system is to
stunt trade, and keep other shops down except those of the
fish-curers?-I think so.
10,647. Did you hear the evidence which Mr. Spence gave on that
subject?-Yes.
10,648. Do you agree with his opinion that it would be better to
have one large monopolist than a number of small shops?-No, I
don't agree with that.
10,649. You think that competition would be wholesome?-I
think so, if there were cash payments.
10,650. Have you any reasons, within your own experience, for
maintaining that opinion with regard to Shetland?-I think, from
my own experience, that the people would be very much more
independent if they had cash in their hands. They are not entrusted
with cash just now, as a general rule. I know they get their
balances paid; but they are not entrusted with cash, and therefore
they are not independent. They are like schoolboys; they lean
upon other people, and I don't think that is a good system. When a
bad year comes, they expect that the fish-curer has to advance
them meal; and they will tell him that if he won't do it, they won't
fish for him again. In that way he must do it; in fact they think he
is bound to do it. They have no self-reliance or independence.
10,651. Could they get supplies in any other way if the curer did
not advance them meal?-There are very few tenants who have
not stock of their own-cattle and horses.
10,652. But these are liable to the landlord for their rent?-Yes;
and they are liable to be sold for supplies to themselves.
10,653. Do you think that even in a bad year their stock might
carry them through?-I think so, in most cases.
10,654. Is there any restriction on the Buness estate upon the
opening of new shops?-None whatever.
10,655. Do you think it is possible for a shopkeeper to prosper in
Shetland who is not engaged in the fishcuring business?-I think
so.
10,656. Even under the present system?-Yes; because there is a
good deal of money among the people, irrespective of the fishing.
They have their produce, and they are not compelled to go with it
all to the fishcurer. There are several shops in this island, the
keepers of which, I believe, are doing very well.
10,657. Do you know anything as to the season at which these
shops have the largest sale?-I do not.
10,658. Would it be a fair inference, from what you know of the
state of things here, to say that the receipts of these shops are
much larger in the spring, when the men have got a little cash at
settlement, than they are at other periods of the year?-I daresay
they are. I cannot speak of that from my own experience; but I
believe that these shops advance a number of the fishermen who
are fishing, perhaps, to Spence & Co. or others, and take the
chance of getting payment when the men receive their money.
10,659. But that is a chance which comes to nothing, or falls
altogether, if the men happen to have run up a large account at
Spence & Co.'s shop?-Necessarily so.
10,660. So that these dealers run a considerable risk in giving
credit at all?-Yes.
10,661. Do you think a large firm, which is engaged both in the
shop business and in the fish-curing business, [Page 260] has a
great hold over the fishermen, so as to secure their services for the
fishing season?-That depends entirely upon the place and the
circumstances. If the firm has control over the men, from having a
lease of the lands on which they live, they must necessarily have a
great influence over them.
10,662. But may such a control not be obtained merely by them
having, a number of the men in debt?-I believe it may.
10,663. Are you aware of such control having been exercised by
fish-merchants in Shetland?-I have heard about it, but it is not
within my own knowledge. My own experience has been that
indebted men and bound men are the most difficult men to deal
with, and that a clear independent man is the man easiest to deal
with in every way.
10,664. Is there any other general statement which you wish to
make with regard to the state of Shetland?-I don't remember any.
I would mention with regard to the Buness estate, that we have
offered leases to a great number of the tenants, but they don't seem
inclined to take them.
10,665. Are you acquainted with the rules which have been laid
down on the neighbouring estate of Major Cameron?-Yes.
10,666. Do you know how far the tenants have been adopting
them?-I believe they are working into them gradually.
10,667. The lease in that case is rather a short one, is it not?-I
think it is too short for an agricultural lease, especially with the
obligations they are under.
10,668. Do you mean with regard to peats and scattalds?-No; I
mean especially the obligations they are under with regard to
improvements.
10,669. There are obligations to make certain improvements, and
to uphold and improve the houses?-I believe so.
10,670. Do you think these obligations are a reason why the rules
and regulations have not been more generally complied with?-I
don't know. Of course it is very difficult to get a people who have
been accustomed to a particular system, and who are wedded to
their old ideas, to change; but I think the people here are now
beginning to see, after two or three years' trial, that it is to be for
their own advantage, and that they will go on with it.
10,671. The leases which you offered on the Buness estate
were, I suppose, intended to introduce a similar system of
improvements?-Yes; but the tenants always seem to think that
if they sign a lease for fourteen or nineteen years they are binding
themselves. They would wish to be free to go any year they like,
but to have the proprietor bound not to turn them off. That, in my
experience, is the reason why leases are not popular as a general
rule.
10,672. Can you give any information as to the ordinary diet of a
Shetland fisherman and his family?-I believe they live very much
better than the same class in England or in Scotland, or I should
perhaps say more expensively.
10,673. What distinction do you draw between these two things?-
They use a great deal of tea and biscuit and loaf, which the same
class in Scotland don't use.
10,674. I thought that loaves were generally unattainable in some
parts of Shetland?-They are not so in this island.
10,675. Have they not to be brought from Lerwick?-Yes, but they
are brought in great quantities.
10,676. Is not oatmeal the staple article of food?-They use it to a
great extent; but I don't think they use it in the form in which it
ought to be used. I don't think that too much tea and very little
bread is good for the working man.
10,677. In what form is the oatmeal mostly used?-I suppose it is
used in bread, but I don't know exactly. I don't think, as it general
rule, they use porridge, which is the most economical way of using
oatmeal.
10,678. Is a large quantity of fish used for the diet of the
fishermen?-I believe there is in summer time, and also
when it can be got in winter.
10,679. Would you say that that is the principal article of diet
along with the oatmeal?-I should say that fish and potatoes were
the principal articles of diet.
10,680. Is butcher meat sometimes used by them?-I believe it is
very seldom.
10,681. But with fish, potatoes, meal, bread, and biscuits, the
population of the island are supplied to a sufficient extent?-Yes.
10,682. And they are more than amply supplied with tea?-I think
so.
10,683. Has there been an improvement on the houses within your
time?-I think there has. We tried to make the houses, when we
were building new ones, better than the old ones were.
10,684. Are new houses upon the estates here generally built by
the proprietor?-Always, except when sometimes a man takes a
small bit of hill or scattald, and then he will make a small house
for himself.
10,685. Is that often done?-Not often.
10,686. Is that the origin of many of the houses now existing?-In
some parts of Shetland I think it is, but I don't think it is to a large
extent in Unst.
10,687. In Unst the houses are more commonly built by the
proprietors?-Yes; because there are not in Unst a great
proportion of what are called offsets-places which have been
taken in from the bill.
10,688. The island has been longer under cultivation?-I think so.
10,689. Then you cannot speak generally of the character of the
house accommodation throughout Shetland?-I cannot.
10,690. Would you think that here it is rather better than in other
places?-I think so. Unst houses are generally built 28 feet by 12,
and about 7 feet high and they contain two rooms. They are built
with stone and clay, harled with lime, and covered with thatch and
turf.
10,691. In Unst I suppose the houses now have generally
chimneys?-Yes, mostly-one in each house.
10,692. Is it in the middle?-No, it is at one end and many of them
have still an open fire at the kitchen end, sometimes in the middle,
and sometimes at the gable; but we have built chimneys to some of
the tenants in both ends.
10,693. Where there is an open fire, what is the exit for the
smoke?-It goes through holes in the thatch left there for the
purpose. These holes are left for air, and to allow the smoke to
go out.
10,694. Was that the ordinary character of the Shetland houses
until lately?-I think so.
10,695. There were no chimneys?-No.
10,696. Are the windows generally glazed now?-Yes; but in
many of the old houses they had no windows.
10,697. Do some of these houses still exist in Unst?-I don't know
any now, but there may be some for anything I know.
10,698. Are there any in other parts of Shetland?-I have seen
them in more remote parts of Northmaven, but that may be a year
or two ago.
10,699. You cannot say whether that is a common style of house in
other parts of Shetland?-I cannot.
10,700. Have you any observations to make upon the printed
evidence that was given in Edinburgh?-I think not.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, Rev. WILLIAM SMITH, examined.
10,701. You have been for some time the clergyman of this
parish?-For nearly three years.
10,702. During that time you have been a good deal among the
people, and you are acquainted with the system that prevails of
long payments of wages, and of running accounts?-I am
acquainted with that from conversations with the men.
10,703. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that
system on the character of the people in general?-[Page 261] I
have. I think the present system has a very deteriorating effect
upon the character of the people generally. I quite agree with what
Mr. Edmonstone has said in that respect. There seems to be a
great want of self-reliance, owing to the present system.
10,704. The men are in the habit of looking to the merchants to
help them through bad season?-Yes, they are in the habit of
looking to the merchants and others.
10,705. And I suppose they are not generally disappointed in that
reliance?-Not so far as I am aware.
10,706. But you consider that that is not a wholesome thing?-I
think it is not. I have had experience of the same class of people,
living under a different system, and I have formed a decided
opinion in favour of the cash system of payments as compared
with the credit system which is carried on here.
10,707. Was your experience in that matter in Orkney?-Yes;
among the same class of people.
10,708. Were the employments of the people of the same character
there?-Their employments were similar, to a certain extent.
Further, I find very often a want of ready cash among the people,
and complaints are often made to me of a want of money for
payment of school fees and other matters. I found, in speaking to
one of the present proprietors, that his uncle had at one time from
£500 to £600 of savings deposited in his hands by his tenantry, but
now, so far as is known, there is little or nothing of that kind.
10,709. Do you think there is no saving?-I don't hear of it.
10,710. May it not be that the savings are deposited in another
quarter?-It may be, unknown to me, and I have no doubt there is
money in possession of many of the people, but of course they
endeavour to keep that secret as far as possible; and I think there
is a want of confidence between the tenantry and proprietors
generally, owing to the present system.
10,711. How has the present system produced a want of
confidence between the people and the proprietors?-The
cause of that has been already explained in great measure by
previous witnesses. There is, as has been already remarked, a
monopoly here. There are small traders to whom their money
would go, and they don't do what is proper, I think, to the firm
who employs them. I have met them bringing goods from these
small traders, which they were morally bound to have got from
the larger merchants when their names were upon the books of
these merchants. Hence there is an endeavour at concealment very
often as to what they really have, and a want of proper faith.
10,712. Do you mean that a person who is indebted to one of the
larger merchants is tempted to sell some of his stock to other
people?-I don't say that he is tempted, but that such cases have
often happened.
10,713. You mean that a man often sells his stock, or anything
he has to sell, such as butter and eggs, to a small merchant, rather
than to the large one to whom he is indebted?-Exactly.
10,714. Does he get money from the small merchant in that
case?-I don't know that he does; but the impression is generally
prevalent, that they may get goods of the same class from the
smaller merchant at a lower price, and I think the present credit
system does not enable the merchants who are in business here, to
sell articles with the same profit as merchants do elsewhere. I find
from my own experience that I can supply myself with the same
goods at a less cost by bringing them from a considerable distance
south, and by paying the expenses of the carriage, than I can buy
them here. I think it would work better for all parties, both
proprietors, fish-curers, and tenants, if such a system of money
payments as has been suggested could be introduced.
10,715. Can you state whether it is universally the case, that
persons in Shetland in the rank of clergyman or small proprietor
do obtain their supplies out of Shetland?-That is invariably the
practice, so far as I am aware.
10,716. Is that in consequence of a difference in price and quality,
or only in consequence of a difference in the price of the goods?-
It is in consequence of a difference both in quality and price.
10,717. Do you speak as to that matter from your own
experience?-I do.
10,718. Is there any other matter which you are prepared to speak
about with reference to this inquiry?-There is one thing to which
Mr. Edmonstone referred which I think is of some importance. I
think that if proprietors were letting their holdings directly to the
tenants, the tenants and proprietors coming into contact as they do
elsewhere, and the proprietor evincing in that way a greater
interest in his tenantry, the result might be a considerable benefit.
For one thing, there might be an improved class of dwellings. I
find a great want of proper arrangement in the dwellings here, and
a proper division of the sexes, and to that I attribute in a great
measure the amount of illegitimacy and immorality which
prevails. I don't think the houses which are occupied by the
common class of people here are equal to these occupied by
people of the same rank of life in other parts of the country. I
have seen several houses here which are at present without
windows, unless a pane of glass let into the roof may be called
such. At the same time, I think the people themselves might do a
very great deal towards improving their dwellings, provided they
were receiving weekly or monthly wages, as the case might be, in
prosecuting the fishing, and if they were encouraged to exercise
greater self-reliance.
10,719. Have you known cases in which parties have been led into
debt greater than they could liquidate, by the present system of
long settlements?-I have. I have come personally into contact
with such cases.
10,720. Have the people consulted you in their difficulties?-They
have; and I am aware personally of fishermen having contracted
debts which their survivors could not possibly liquidate. In the
case of men who have lost their lives by accident, I have known
that the firm by whom these men were employed have lost
considerably: that, I had reason to believe was in consequence of
the present system; and it was almost beyond the power of the
widows and children to liquidate the debt which had been
contracted.
10,721. In such a case, is there no system of insurance existing, by
which the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund or some other society,
comes to the aid of these widows and children?-I regret that
there is not. I am aware that the men have been encouraged to
contribute by the agents of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society, but
they have not availed themselves of it as I think they ought to have
done.
10,722. Are there no agents for that Society in the island?-There
are two or three of them, two at least. One is in the merchants'
office and one is not; there may be others.
10,723. But the men don't take advantage of that?-They do not,
to the extent which they ought.
10,724. So that, in the case of a boat accident of that sort, resort
must be had, if the widows are destitute, either to poor-law relief
or to public subscriptions?-Exactly.
10,725 In another part of Shetland I have had some evidence given
with regard to the appropriation of such subscriptions to pay debts
due by the fishermen who were lost. Are you aware of any such
cases having occurred in Unst?-I have been applied to in that
way when I was in charge of funds, but I have refused to make
use of the funds for that purpose, because I did not think that,
conscientiously, it was my duty to appropriate them in that way.
10,726. You mean that you have been asked to apply funds so
subscribed to liquidate a debt due to the fish-merchant?-I have.
10,727. But your opinion was that the subscribers had not intended
the fund to be applied for such a purpose?-Certainly it was.
10,728. Is there any further statement you wish to make?-I
should wish to remark that if a cash system were introduced, it
would not only have a beneficial effect generally upon the
community, but it would apply to [Page 262] all transactions
between the merchants and the people generally, so that no
negotiations between the merchants and people should take
place unless in cash. I mean to say, that where widows are
paid annuities, and where pensioners receive their quarterly or
half-yearly allowances, these should be paid in cash. I don't
attribute the fact that they are not paid in cash at present to any
design upon the part of the merchants at all, but I think it is the
result of a system which has been long continued here, and which I
think is very much to be regretted.
10,729. Do you mean that any custom prevails according to which
annuities of that kind are not paid in cash?-Such a custom does
prevail.
10,730. What sort of annuities do you refer to?-I refer to
annuities allowed to widows by Anderson's Trust, founded by the
late Mr. Anderson, M.P., and I refer to allowances which are paid
by the Inland Revenue to pensioners under the paymaster for the
northern district of Inverness. I believe that such pensioners do
receive payment of their pensions in goods. Of course that may be
done by consent of the pensioners themselves. I don't say that it is
done by design of the merchants, but I am aware that it does take
place.
10,731. Who is the agent in these cases through whom the funds
are payable?-The collecting supervisor of Excise at Lerwick.
10,732. Through what channel does he pay the annuities which
you refer to in Unst?-Through the merchants, as a convenience to
himself.
10,733. He remits the money to the merchants, and the annuities
are taken out in goods?-Exactly.
10,734. Are they credited in the accounts which are run by the
annuitants?-The annuities are very often taken out to nearly the
full extent of what they have to receive before their money comes.
10,735. Are you in possession of that information from the
annuitants themselves?-I am. I think it is part of the general
system which prevails, to pay in that way. The people have
gradually drifted into it, and seem to look upon it as something
quite natural and reasonable. They have not been accustomed to
anything else. I have also met in with cases of men receiving
payment of days' wages by lines upon the shop, instead of
receiving a payment in cash and attribute that to the very same
thing.
10,736. In these cases where days' wages were paid in goods, were
the men working for a farmer, or to the shopkeeper himself?-No,
they were working for contractors upon buildings.
10,737. Is it the case that there is sometimes considerable
difficulty in making such payments in cash in Shetland from the
scarcity of silver money?-I have no doubt there is often some
difficulty in that way but I am never at a loss for silver money if I
have to make any payments to labourers or others, because I can
get a cheque cashed in silver by any small merchant to the extent
of £15 or £20 at almost any time. At least I have met with such
cases. I have not applied to the larger merchants for cash on such
occasions, but I have been offered silver to that extent by a small
merchant.
10,738. Would there be any difficulty in getting change of a
pound at a large merchant's shop?-Yes, I have met with such a
difficulty.
10,739. Why?-From the want of silver.
10,740. Is that because they transact their business to such a large
amount by barter?-Yes; I attribute the want of silver, to a large
extent, to that.
10,741. Are you expressing that opinion from a single instance, or
from a variety of cases?-From repeated instances happening
within my own experience in which I have not been able to get
change. I have not been able to get change at a large shop, but
very frequently I have got it at the smaller shops. The general
opinion is that a greater amount of the silver coin is to be found
with these smaller merchants than at the larger shops, and in that
opinion I quite concur.
10,742. Are you speaking now of what you know to be the general
opinion, or of what you have found to be the case in your general
experience?-I am speaking of what I know to be the case from
my own experience.
10,743. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of this
system upon the truthfulness and uprightness of the Shetland
character?-I have formed the opinion that it has a very bad
effect indeed upon the straightforwardness and truthfulness of
the character of the people in this part of Shetland, for of course
I have, had no experience elsewhere. I have found among the
younger portion of the population generally a desire or at least a
tendency, not to be so straightforward as one would wish.
10,744. How does that arise from the system?-I think it arises
from it in this way?-Very often a fisherman or his wife may be
taking their produce to a small merchant, under the impression that
they will get a better bargain there than from a larger merchant;
and there is a general desire to conceal what their possessions may
be. I have found by experience that I have been imposed upon in
one or two instances with regard to that.
10,745. But do you think that has occurred in more instances than
would have occurred in any other parish in Scotland?-I do think
so. I think that one great evil of the present system arises from the
people not feeling the value of what they purchase, because they
get it on credit here, and are led to use what the same class of
people do not use elsewhere. For instance, they use a great deal of
tea and fine flour, and fancy biscuits and preserves, and other
things of that kind. I think that has a very deleterious effect upon
the people themselves, because it encourages prodigality, and the
same earnings would go much further if laid out on different and
more wholesome fare.
10,746. Do you think they take these things because they get them
on credit?-They get them on credit; and my belief is, they do not
feel it so much as if they were paying ready money for them.
10,747. You mean they do not feel it except once a year?-Yes;
and I believe they would think more about it if they had to pay for
them in ready cash.
10,748. Your knowledge with regard to the payment of annuities
and pensions. I presume arises from the fact that you have in
many cases to sign a certificate before the annuitant or pensioner
is entitled to receive payment?-Yes.
10,749. You have to certify that the parties are living, and that you
know them?-Yes.
10,750. Is there any other thing you wish to add?-Not that I
remember just now.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ROBERT GRAY, examined.
10,751. Are you a fisherman here?-I am. I fish to Mr. Sandison
at the station.
10,752. Where do you live?-I live at Snarravoe.
10,753. You have heard the evidence to-day, and you desire to
come forward and make some statement yourself with regard to
the advances of meal you have received from Messrs. Spence &
Co?-Yes. I wish to say that if I had not been advanced by them
in two bad years, I must have starved with my family, because, I
did not have the means with which to buy supplies.
10,754. Were you in debt to Spence & Co. at the beginning of the
two bad years?-Yes.
10,755. And you continued to fish for them?-Yes.
10,756. Have you got further into debt during late years, or have
you cleared any of your debt off?-I have got a little out of debt,
because I had some cattle to spare, and I had a bigger fishing; but
at the time when I had nothing with which to support my family
they supported us and paid my rent too.
10,757. On whose property do you live?-On Major Cameron's
property.
10,758. Then you paid your rent to him?-I paid my rent to him
until Spence & Co. took me into their service.
[Page 263]
10,759. Who did you fish for formerly?-Captain Cameron kept
the fishing when he was alive, and I fished for him, and at other
times I just fished for the man that I got the best bargain from.
10,760. But at one time Captain Cameron held you bound to fish
for himself?-Yes.
10,761. You now take your supplies from Spence & Co?-Yes;
and I could not be better supplied than I have been by them.
10,762. You don't deal anywhere else?-No, except for any small
thing which I require; and if I have a penny or so I go into any
shop and buy.
10,763. Do you get any cash in the course of the year?-I get it
when I ask for it.
10,764. How much have you asked for?-I never could ask for
much because I was in debt, and I am in debt yet; but when I asked
for a little, I got it at any time.
10,765. I suppose you have some money passing through your
hands at times?-It is not very much. I went south some years ago
and I had no money, and I wrote to those people to supply my
family while was south, and they gave them what they required.
10,766. Is that all you wish to say?-Yes.
Baltasound, Unst, January 19, 1872, ALEXANDER SANDISON, recalled.
10,767. Do you wish to say anything further?-Yes. The reason
why the big shops have no change is, that they are daily paying for
produce and advances to their fishermen, and change is very much
wanted. I have often had to issue small checks for want of change
promising to pay them when I got the change.
10,768. Is there any other person here who wishes to give evidence
or to make any statement? [No answer] Then I adjourn the sitting
here until further notice.
<Adjourned>.
UYEASOUND: SATURDAY, JANUARY 20, 1872
CHARLES WILLIAMSON, examined.
10,769. You are a fisherman at Cullivoe in North Yell?-Yes.
10,770. How long have you lived there?-I have lived for four
years at Gutcher.
10,771. Where were you before?-At Mid Yell.
10,772. Have you been a fisherman in Yell all your life?-No; I
have been south at sea half the time, and at the whale fishing.
10,773. Do you do much in the winter fishing?-A good deal.
10,774. You do a good deal more at that than your neighbours?-
Yes, a good deal.
10,775. How much will you make for a winter and spring fishing,
before the regular haaf fishing begins?-Last winter I made about
£12, and in the spring £6.
10,776. Have you made a good fishing of it this winter season, so
far as it is gone?-Yes, very good.
10,777. Do you sell your fish as you land them?-No, I salt them
as I land them.
10,778. Will you make as good a fishing of it this season as you
did last season?-I hope I shall. I have every prospect of doing so.
10,779. You carry on that winter fishing with a small boat?-Yes,
with a small four-oared boat which I work with my two boys.
10,780. You think you make a great deal more in the winter and
spring than any of your neighbours?-Yes, I have always done
that, because I devote my time to it exclusively.
10,781. In fact you are more industrious and courageous?-I think
I have been that.
10,782. Do you think it would be possible for a man here to live by
fishing all the year round?-I am living by it myself.
10,783. Have you not a piece of ground?-I have a small piece of
ground, but it can do very little for me, because I am paying about
£12 of rent and rates. I have to buy all my livelihood in the course
of the year from my fishing.
10,784. You do not depend much upon your ground?-No.
10,785. Not so much as most of the tenants round about you?-I
do not.
10,786. Is that because the rent you pay is higher than is paid by
others?-I have a better house than others, and that makes the
land higher.
10,787. Do you think that if you had large boats here, such as they
have on the east coast, the fishing might be carried on all the
winter?-Not the Faroe fishing, or the fishing which is carried on
in the summer time. The deep-sea fishing could not be carried on
in winter, because there is such a heavy current.
10,788. Do you think that even with the large boats, in which you
have a shelter for two or three of the men, it would not be possible
to carry on that fishing?-With the large boats we could hardly
work the lines in the way we work them now.
10,789. Have you thought of trying that?-I have, and I am
thinking of trying it now.
10,790. You are going to make an experiment about it this
season?-Yes; I am thinking about trying it now with a large
boat, such as are used along the Scotch coast. If I had a boat
like theirs, I think I could fish all March and all April and May.
10,791. Do you know whether anything of that kind has been tried
before in Shetland?-There has been no attempt made in a boat
like that.
10,792. But you believe there may be a fair chance of doing a good
business with it?-I should think there is.
10,793. Do you think you could not go out to the haaf with a boat
like that in winter as you do in summer?-We would trust more to
her if she were decked over.
10,794. Do you think you could manage to get out to the deep sea
with such a boat as that in winter?-Yes, we could manage to get
there; but the difficulty would be to manage the sailing in of our
lines. The way we do just now is to haul them in.
10,795. You mean the difficulty is to take in your lines with the
boat sailing?-Yes; the same as they do on the Scotch coast.
10,796. Your practice in Shetland is to haul in your lines while
rowing, and never to haul them in while sailing?-Yes; we
sometimes set them while sailing.
10,797. But you believe you could learn to haul them in while
sailing also?-Yes.
10,798. Are the lines you use of the same kind and the same length
as are used on the east coast?-The lines we use are 42 fathoms to
the length of line, and we use hundred of these lines.
10,799. Is it long since you were at the whaling?-I think the last
year I was there was 1864.
10,800. How were you engaged that year?-I was engaged in Mr.
Tait's office, in Lerwick.
10,801. Did you get your outfit from him?-I got my advance; I
did not need an outfit.
[Page 264]
10,802. Had you been there before?-Yes, often.
10,803. Had you an account with Mr. Tait that year?-Yes, I had
several accounts.
10,804. Was that for your own supplies at home?-Yes; they
required a little while I was away.
10,805. I suppose you always had an account with the agent who
engaged you for the fishing?-Yes.
10,806. At that time I believe these accounts were generally
settled in the agent's office and the amount of your account was
deducted from the payment of your wages and the first payment of
oil-money?-Yes.
10,807. And you settled the final payment of oil-money at any time
that suited you when you were in Lerwick?-Yes.
10,808. Was the settlement of your account made when you landed
from the ship?-Yes; if we chose to make it there and then, we
could do so.
10,809. But it was very often later?-Yes, pretty often. I cannot
say how much it was later. If I came into Lerwick, and the packet
was ready to leave, so that I had not time to carry through a
settlement then, I would go home, and then I would return in about
a fortnight or so, and have a settlement made.
10,810. How was the second payment of oil-money made to you?
Was it in cash?-Yes, generally it was in cash.
10,811. Did you sometimes get it in goods?-If I wanted goods I
could get them, but I was commonly paid in cash.
10,812. When you were to settle for your first payment, I suppose
you generally had some small account standing?-Yes.
10,813. Where was it settled?-In the office.
10,814. Was the office beside the shop?-Yes.
10,815. Was it always with Mr. Tait that you engaged for the
whale fishing?-No; I have been out for Mr. Leask too.
10,816. Did both of these gentlemen have their offices in the
shop?-Yes.
10,817. When you went into the shop were you generally asked if
you wanted anything?-Yes; commonly we were asked that.
10,818. Was that before the settlement or after it?-It was after we
had done settling, and when we had money coming to us.
10,819. Had your money been paid to you before that?-No.
10,820. But when you found out the total that was due to you, you
were asked whether you wanted any goods?-Yes.
10,821. And you would generally take something else?-I did not
take very much myself. I always got the money.
10,822. When you went to settle for your final balance, were you
also asked whether you wanted anything?-It was always when I
came down again to go to Greenland, or to go south, that I got it.
10,823. At that time you would want some supplies to be sent
home?-Yes.
10,824. And if you wanted anything of that kind, it would be set
down against your next account?-No, it was set down against the
second payment of oil-money, if we had so much coming to us.
10,825. What you have been describing was the ordinary practice
during all the years you were at the whale fishing, both for Mr.
Leask and Mr. Tait?-Yes, and for Messrs. Hay also.
10,826. Did you sometimes engage with Messrs. Hay?-Yes.
10,827. Do you think it would be better to have your fishing paid
by monthly payments, according to the quantity delivered, and at a
price fixed at the beginning of the season, rather than to have the
long accounts you have now?-I don't know that, upon the whole,
it would be any better for myself; and I can only speak for myself.
Those whom I have been serving for the last three years have
given me money whenever I wanted it.
10,828. But don't you think you would have the money more
under your own command if you were paid monthly or
fortnightly?-I could not say that I would have it more under
my own command, because they give it to me whenever I ask
for it.
10,829. I suppose the merchants are always very glad to get you to
fish for them?-I suppose they are.
10,830. Are you not about the best fisherman in the islands?-I
have heard that said since I started.
10,831 And I suppose you have generally a balance to get at the
end of the year above the supplies you have got?-Yes,
sometimes.
10,832. Who do you fish for?-Spence & Co.; I have done so for
the last three years.
10,833. Do you get all your supplies at Uyea Sound?-Yes, except
occasionally when I send down for anything to Lerwick.
10,834. Do you think you get any advantage in price or quality by
sending to Lerwick for your goods?-I do not.
10,835. I suppose you get all money if you ask for it?-Yes.
10 836. And you don't require to take any supplies from Spence &
Co. unless you wish?-No; I only take meal and oil-cloth, and the
like of that.
10,837. But you might get all your pay in money if you wished,
and be able to buy your goods anywhere else?-Yes, I could get
every cent of my money if I wanted it.
10,838. Is it entirely of your own choice that you deal in the
shop?-Entirely.
10,839. Where is it that boats are most commonly lost on the coast
of Shetland? Is it at sea or in the sounds?-It is when we come in
towards the land. We fish fifty or sixty miles dead off the land,
and we will come in within ten or twelve miles of the land before
we get into any danger. Then we come in upon the tides.
10,840. Therefore, if you were out at the haaf in your large boats,
these boats might live through any storm?-Yes; a large boat
could keep outside and not require to come in to involve herself in
the tides, but when we have a small boat we are forced to come in.
10,841. A man cannot stay outside in these small boats?-No; the
weather is always getting worse, and the sea getting higher and
higher on them, and they must run for the laud.
10,842. But with a larger boat you might run out to sea in a
storm?-Yes.
10,483. Do you do that sometimes with your small boats, and
escape?-Yes.
10,484. You think that is often a better course to take than running
for the land in a storm?-Yes; the summer breezes are not very
long.
10,845. But do you do that in a winter storm?-In winter we do
not go very far off the land in our small boats.
10,846. But in a winter storm with one of the large boats you are to
try, you think you may run off to sea and be comparatively safe?-
I think so.
<Adjourned>.
[Page 265]
LERWICK: MONDAY, JANUARY 22, 1872
WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.
10,847. You are cashier and principal clerk to Mr. Joseph Leask,
merchant, shipowner, and agent in Lerwick?-I am.
10,848. You have been for nineteen years in his business, during
which time you have been employed in shipping and discharging
seamen, engaging and settling with fishermen, and employing and
paying hundreds of labouring people?-I have.
10,849. You are also fully acquainted with the barter system as it
prevails in Shetland?-I am.
10,850. I understand you desire to be examined with regard to the
Report furnished to the Board of Trade in September 1870 by Mr.
Hamilton, as well as on certain questions and answers in the
Report of the Commission, of which you have given me a list?-I
do.
10,851. Will you give me, in the first place, a general description
of Mr. Leask's business? He is, I believe, a proprietor of land to
some extent in Shetland?-Yes, and he is also a pretty large
proprietor of house property in town.
10,852. What estates does he hold?-He has estates in West and
South Yell, Ulsta and Coppister.
10,853. Has Ulsta been long in his possession?-I think about ten
years, but I could not exactly say.
10,854. What is the extent of his estates in Yell?-There are about
fifty tenants on the Yell property, and the annual value is upwards
of £200.
10,855. I understand that in Yell Mr. Leask now carries on the
fishing to a considerable extent?-He has only commenced in the
past season to carry out the fishing in Yell on his own account.
10,856. Has he a station and shop there?-He has now. He
commenced them at the beginning of this year at Ulsta. The
shopkeeper is William Hughson.
10,857. How many boats were employed there last year?-Four.
10,858. Are the fishermen bound to fish for the proprietor?-They
are not bound to fish. They requested Mr. Leask to employ them
last year, and it was at their own request he did so.
10,859. Who was the fish-curer at that station previously?-
William Jack Williamson, and James Johnston. Williamson lived
at Ulsta, and Johnston at West Yell Sound.
10,860. Was the request you have mentioned from the fishermen
to Mr. Leask to employ them a written one?-No; it was verbal.
10,861. How was it conveyed to you?-By the people themselves.
10,862. By how many of them?-By about half dozen or thereby; I
cannot state the number exactly.
10,863. Did they come to Lerwick for the purpose?-They always
come to Lerwick in November to settle their rent accounts; and in
November 1870 a few of them requested Mr. Leask to build boats
for them, and they would fish to him rather than to Johnston and
Williamson.
10,864. Had Williamson given up business at that time?-No.
10,865. Had he still a shop and curing station at Ulsta?-Yes.
10,866. In consequence of the request made to you by the men,
what steps were taken to take over the business at Ulsta?-The
business was not taken over at all. Mr. Leask simply built boats
for three crews, and employed three masters to obtain crews at
Ulsta and West Yell. One boat belonged to Ulsta, and the other
two to West Yell.
10,867. Did Mr. Williamson hold premises from Mr. Leask on the
Ulsta estate?-Yes.
10,868. He paid rent for them, but he had no lease?-No.
10,869. Did he receive notice that his tenure was at an end?-Yes;
he received notice of that verbally two years or year and a half
before he had to leave.
10,870. Had he received it before the verbal requisition was made
by the fishermen to Mr. Leask that he should take them into his
service?-I think so; but I could not be sure.
10,871. Was it in the contemplation of Mr. Leask to commence
business there himself, at the time when he gave Williamson the
first notice to leave?-I am not quite sure. I think he was not sure
about it himself, whether he would commence business there on
his own account, or let the premises to another party. The matter
had not been fully considered; but I think Mr. Leask had it in
contemplation to make some change, because the Yell people
were not altogether satisfied with the state of matters at that time.
10,872. And the requisition made by the six fishermen had the
effect of bringing him to a decision?-I suppose it had; at any rate
it helped. The men were all of opinion that they would be better
served by Mr. Leask, than by any person whom he might send
there.
10,873. Were the fishermen under any obligation to fish for
Williamson?-I don't think they were bound.
10,874. Was there any understanding when he took his premises,
that the fishermen on that estate should fish for him?-No. Mr.
Williamson was on the estate before Mr. Leask bought it; and after
Mr. Leask bought it the men were at liberty to go wherever they
pleased, either to fish at home or to go to Greenland, or to go
south, or anywhere they liked. They were not bound in any way.
10,875. But when they did go to the home fishing, were they at
liberty to sell their fish to any one they chose?-The boats
belonged to Williamson, and of course they would be bound to
give him the fish.
10,876. But were they at liberty to go in the boats of any other
fish-curer?-Yes; they were at perfect liberty to fish for whom
they pleased, so far as the landlord was concerned.
10,877. Was there any written lease of the premises to Williamson
at any time?-He never had any written lease, so far as I am
aware.
10,878. If there had been a written lease at the time when Mr.
Leask bought the property, you would have been aware of it?-I
think so.
10,879. It would have come into your hands along with the other
writings relative to the estate?-Yes.
10,880. Either before or after the application of the West Yell
tenants to Mr. Leask, was any intimation made to the rest of the
tenants on that estate, or to the whole of them, that he (Mr. Leask)
was about to open a shop there himself, and to receive fish?-The
men who made the representation to Mr. Leask were given to
understand that he would build boats for them; and when they
went home they spread the report that Mr. Leask intended to do
that.
10,881. Was any written intimation made to the tenants to that
effect?-None that I know of.
10,882. Or any verbal intimation other than you have now
mentioned?-The masters of the boats were to go and engage their
own crews. We appointed masters, and they went among the
tenants to engage whom they could get.
10,883. What instructions were given to the masters?-They were
engaged on the same terms as usual, and they were to be paid in
the same way.
10,884. But what instructions were given to them about telling the
tenants?-There were no special instructions given at all.
[Page 266]
10,885. Were they desired to inform the tenants that Mr. Leask
was undertaking the fishing himself, and that he expected the
tenants to engage in his boats' crews?-At that time Mr. Leask
could get more men amongst his tenants than he could employ,
and there was no need for any pressure. More men were anxious
to go than he had boats for at that time.
10,886. Had you any correspondence with Mr. Williamson about
him leaving Ulsta?-Yes, a very long correspondence, and rather
an amusing one. He implored Mr. Leask to allow him to remain
for another year, as his business was so extensive that he could not
wind it up in so short a time.
10,887. What was Mr. Leask's objection to allow him to
remain?-He required the premises as a dwellinghouse for the
incoming man, William Hughson; and of course it would not do
to have opposition.
10,888. But he had made no arrangements for that at the time
when Williamson was requested to prepare for removal?-He
had not.
10,889. Then when was the correspondence? Was it when
Williamson first got the notice or afterwards?-It was not until
long afterwards. I think Williamson was of opinion that Mr.
Leask would not remove him, and he trusted to that until the
very last. I think he had some idea of getting the new premises,
notwithstanding what had passed.
10,890. Were new premises built?-Yes, they were built last year.
They were begun in June and only completed in December 1871.
10,891. Was Williamson still carrying on the fishing in 1871 while
these new premises were being built?-Yes. He was fishing and
carrying on the business the same as before.
10,892. How many men had he fishing for him last year at
Ulsta?-I think he had about the same number of boats that he
had formerly.
10,893. And he still had the same premises?-He occupied the
same premises all along. The premises which Mr. Leask is
occupying now for business purposes are altogether new.
Williamson continued to occupy the old premises until November
1871, when he had to leave.
10,894. Where did he manage to get fishermen when Mr. Leask
had put on three new boats?-I think he got some from Mr.
M'Queen's estate, and also some of Mr. Leask's own tenants.
10,895. Does Mr. Leask intend to put on a larger number of boats
this year?-I think he intends to put on one or two more.
10,896. But the boats' crews that he employed last year had
formerly been in the employment of Williamson and Johnston?-
Yes.
10,897. Is Johnston still carrying on business?-Yes, he is carrying
on business at Sound, in West Yell, where he has a small property.
10,898. Do you know how many boats he has?-I think he has
two but I am not sure. Some of Mr. Leask's tenants fished for
Johnston last year also.
10,899. Will Mr. Leask's tenants be allowed to fish for Johnston
and Williamson in future?-I don't think they would do so if Mr.
Leask would give them employment.
10,900. But will they be allowed to fish for any other than Mr.
Leask?-I don't think Mr. Leask would force any one to fish for
him.
10,901. The tenants have received no intimation to the contrary?-
No.
10,902. And no hint?-No hint whatever. In fact, there were
tenants applying in November last for new boats, and requesting
Mr. Leask to build new boats for them, because there are a good
many men who would like to be employed by him, in preference to
being employed by Johnston or any other body.
10,903. Do you know whether many of the men were in debt to
Williamson when he left Ulsta?-I don't know.
10,904. Was that one of the reasons why Williamson was anxious
not to quit in a hurry?-He alleged that reason; but I am of opinion
that there were not many of them in debt.
10,905. Did he ask you to relieve him of any of these debts?-
Never.
10,906. Do you suppose he has any chance of recovering any debts
that may exist now?-Certainly he has. The men have all got
effects of some kind or another, so that he may easily take them
into court and recover what they are due him. They are all in very
good circumstances; there are none of them who could not pay
their debts.
10,907. Has Mr. Leask any property in Sandsting?-Yes; he has
the property of Sand and Inner Sand. There are between 40 and 50
tenants upon it.
10,908. Are most of them engaged in the summer fishing?-A
good many of them are. Some of them fish for Garriock & Co.,
and some for Mr. Leask, and I think some for Charles Nicholson.
10,909. Is that property in the south side of the parish?-Yes; it is
near Reawick.
10,910. Has Mr. Leask any station in that district?-No.
10,911. Then where do they fish for him?-They go in some of his
vessels to the Faroe fishing. He has no home-fishing station in
Sandsting.
10,912. Are they at liberty to go to the home fishing or to the Faroe
fishing for anybody they like?-Yes. They are under no obligation
to fish for Mr. Leask. They can go where they like, and they have
always done so.
10,913. Do they hold their land as yearly tenants?-Yes.
10,912. What other property has Mr. Leask?-South Whiteness, to
the north-west of Scalloway, in the parish of Tingwall. I think
there are about seventeen or eighteen tenants on that property.
They fish principally for Mr. Leask in the Faroe fishing, and in the
spring fishing, which occupies about a month or a little more.
10,915. Then they are not generally engaged in the home
fishing?-No; they are generally engaged in the Faroe fishing.
10,916. How many of them may have gone to that fishing last
year?-There may have been above a dozen.
10,917. These men, I presume, have accounts at Mr. Leask's shop
at Lerwick?-Yes.
10,918. Is there any stipulation made with them that they shall
man his Faroe smacks?-None. They are not bound at all. They
may go where they please and engage themselves with whoever
they please.
10,919. Has Mr. Leask any other properties in Shetland?-He has
some small properties in other places-in Quarff, North Roe, and
Aithsting. He has two tenants in Quarff, three in Aithsting, and
one in North Roe. These tenants do not fish for Mr. Leask at all,
and never have done so, or been asked to do so.
10,920. Then Mr. Leask's business consists in sending smacks to
the Faroe fishing?-Yes.
10,921. And in sending boats to the summer fishing?-Now it
does, but not formerly. It was only last year that he commenced
the home fishing at Ulsta.
10,922. Has he commenced that business anywhere else?-No.
Ulsta is the only summer-fishing station that he has.
10,923. Mr. Leask is also engaged in the whale fishing, both as an
owner of ships and as an agent?-Yes.
10,924. I believe it is specially with regard to the agency business
that you wish to make some statement?-Yes. I wish to make a
statement with regard to Mr. Hamilton's Report to the Board of
Trade in November 1870. Some of it is so utterly absurd that I
should like to have it contradicted. He says, 'I ought to mention
that the truck system, in an open or disguised form, prevails in
Shetland to an extent which, I believe, is unknown in any other
part of the United Kingdom.' Now, that I deny <in toto>; and I
think I will be able to prove before I am done that it is not correct.
'And makes its depressing influence felt in all the ramifications of
the industrial and social life of the natives.'
10,925. He says, 'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt
to some shopkeeper; and not only is [Page 267] the head of the
family in debt, but frequently his wife also, and other members of
his family, down to children of twelve or fourteen years of age, for
whom the shopkeeper opens separate accounts in his books.' Is
that the case?-There may be some cases of that, but it is not
general. I deny that almost every fisherman in the islands is in
debt. Then he says, 'These fishermen, for the most part, also rent
small farms of from three to four acres.' That also I deny Mr.
Leask has about 120 tenants, and I think the average quantity of
land they hold is about twelve acres of enclosed ground, besides
common.
10,926. What is the amount of their rent?-The rent is something
less than 10s. an acre, on the average. Some have as much as
twenty-three acres, and in some cases they have about seven. The
rental I have given is for the enclosed ground within the township;
and in addition to that, the people have extensive commons.
10,927. On Mr. Leask's estates are the scattalds still left to the
people without any payment?-Yes, except in Yell, where
they have to pay 6d. per annum for every sheep. They also pay
something for ponies, but nothing for cattle.
10,928. I omitted to ask whether Mr. Leask has the management of
any properties except his own?-No.
10,929. He is not tacksman of any property, and he holds no
property in lease?-No. I may mention that he has an assignation
of the rents of a small property in Mid Yell, in security for debt.
The rents are paid regularly, and he has nothing to do with the
tenants except to draw their rent at the term.
10,930. Then what you deny in that sentence of Mr. Hamilton's
Report is merely his statement as to the extent of the holdings of
the men?-Yes. I hold they are three or four times larger than he
says.
10,931. In the same sentence he adds, 'And it is from them (that is,
the fishermen) and from their sons that the crews of the whaling
vessels are mainly drawn.' Is that the case?-I don't deny that at
all. It is quite true.
10,932. Is it also true that there are no whaling vessels belonging
to Lerwick-that they belong principally to Dundee, Peterhead,
and Hull, and that the owners of these vessels engage large
portions of their crews at Lerwick through agents?-Yes.
10,933. Is it also true that these agents get little direct profit from
their agency?-They get 21/2 per cent. commission on the gross
wages paid through them.
10,934. Do you consider that an adequate remuneration?-It is not
nearly an adequate remuneration for the amount of trouble they
have; but it has been the practice to pay that, and there is so much
competition amongst the agents that it has brought it down. I
believe it was formerly 5 per cent.
10,935. I believe there are only three or four agents in Lerwick,
and that the commission is fixed by mutual agreement between
them and the shipowners?-Yes. It has always been 21/2 per cent.
within my recollection.
10,936. Is it the competition that prevents the commission from
being raised to such a figure as would be a sufficient remuneration
in itself?-Yes.
10,937. The agents are engaged in business as shopkeepers and
outfitters?-Yes.
10,938. Then it is the case that they have little direct profit from
their agency; and Mr. Hamilton goes on to say, 'Their chief profit
arises from what they can make out of the earnings of the men.' Is
that statement correct?-I think some of them make very little
profit indeed from the men. They sell their goods as cheap, if not
cheaper, than other shopkeepers do; they give credit to the men,
and sometimes they lose a good deal of it through bad debts when
there is a bad voyage.
10,939. Is a bad voyage in the whaling a thing of frequent
occurrence?-It is very frequent, especially in the seal fishing.
10,940. Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'Many of the men engaged are
utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to provide
themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage?'-That is
often the case with young hands. They come here without any
clothing, and require perhaps from £5 to £6 worth in order to fit
them out for the Greenland voyage. The wages for young hands
are about £1 a month, and 1s. per tun of oil. When they have no
success, they are back in about a month and a half; that is only 30s.
they have to get, and that is all the agent has for his advance.
10,941. You are speaking now of the sealing voyage?-Yes. It
only occupies about five or six weeks with the steamers.
10,942. But when a man goes on a sealing voyage of that kind, is
he taken for the whaling voyage afterwards?-Sometimes, but
sometimes not.
10,943. Do many of them only go to the sealing voyage?-Yes.
Last year the majority bargained for the sealing voyage only, and
did not go on the whaling voyage. Some of them re-engaged
again, but many of them did not.
10,944. But, as a rule, do one-half of them engage for a second
voyage after the sealing voyage was over?-I should say they do.
10,945. And many of them, I suppose, engage for a whaling
voyage, who have not been at the sealing voyage at the
commencement of the season?-That is sometimes the case.
10,946. How many men have you engaged for the last four or five
years for the sealing voyages?-I could not say exactly for the last
four or five years, but last year we engaged 207 for the sealing
voyage, and 80 for the whaling, or 287 altogether.
10,947. Is not that an unusual proportion between the sealing and
whaling voyages?-Yes. In former years we used to engage more
for the whaling, and fewer for the sealing; but last year the owners
took it into their heads to engage the men only for the sealing, and
discharge them at the end of that voyage; and then, when the
vessels were going to the whaling, they re-engaged only such
men as they wanted.
10,948. What was their reason for that?-I suppose they were
trying to economize. I don't know whether they economized or
not, but it must have been with that view they tried it.
10,949 Are the crews larger in the sealing voyages than in the
whaling?-They are. I should say that ten men fewer per ship
are required for the whaling than for the sealing
10,950. How many ships would these represent?-Seven for the
sealing, and four for the whaling.
10,951. So that you had three ships fewer under your care for the
whaling than for the sealing last year?-Yes.
10,952 How did that happen? Did the ships not go to the
whaling?-The 'Esquimaux' did not call here for men last year.
The 'Victor' did not go at all to the whaling, and the third one
remained at the sealing the whole season.
10,953. Then, in one ship the men you engaged would be
employed through the whole season for the sealing?-Yes.
That vessel tried whaling for a short time but I suppose it did
not succeed.
10,954. You say that when a young man goes to the sealing at first,
he incurs a larger debt for outfit than the whole amount of his
wages?-Very often he does.
10,955. So that the merchant who engages him is often a serious
loser, having no security in the shape of wages?-He risks his
goods on the success of the voyage, and when the voyage is
unsuccessful, he comes out a very serious loser occasionally.
10,956. But the man remains in his debt and may pay it up in a
subsequent year?-Very often he does not. When a man gets into
debt, we generally lose him. He goes to some other agent, or he
goes south.
10,957. Is he more likely to go to another agent when he is in
debt?-Yes. We very seldom get a man back again who is in
debt to us.
10,958. How does that affect Mr. Hamilton's statement?-He says,
'The agents are, of course, interested in getting employment for
those who are in their debt.' Now we very seldom or never get
them employed again when they once get into debt, and therefore
it is our interest not to allow them to get into debt, if possible.
10,959. But you would be very glad to get employment for such a
man if you could?-If we could get him employment we would be
very glad; but they take [Page 268] very good care not to allow us
to catch them. Of course, there are some of them who pay their
debts, but that is the exception. I am now referring to the young
hands-those who get into debt on their first voyage.
10,960. When a man of older standing gets into debt, is he more
likely to pay up in a subsequent year?-Yes. A man whose family
is settled here is more likely to pay up.
10,961. Of course, in his case, you are not only interested in
getting employment for him, but he also is anxious to get
employment through you?-Yes, it is a mutual accommodation;
but there are very few of the old hands in debt. It is principally
among the young men who make unsuccessful voyages that
anything of that kind happens. Then we come to a very serious
mistake which Mr. Hamilton makes. He says, 'Even those men
who are able to pay for their own outfit, and who might be able
to obtain it at a cheaper rate from some other shopkeepers, are
practically debarred from doing so; for any man who carried his
custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him,
would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that
particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the
news of his contumacy would soon spread; and as there are
more men than there are berths, he would probably never get any
employment again.' Now, it is nonsense to say, that there are
often more men than berths. We have often had to go and search
for men, and ships have frequently had to go on their voyages
short of men. That has often occurred within the last nineteen
years to my knowledge. I have seen vessels lying here for day
after day, when we were searching for hands and could not get
them, and after all they had to leave short-handed.
10,962. Did that occur last year or the year before?-No; it has not
occurred for it year or two, but five years ago it occurred in the
case of the 'Jan Mayen.' The first year she was a steamer, which
was five years ago, she had to go short-handed, because the men
were so scarce.
10,963. Do you know of any other ships which have had to go
to the fishing short-handed?-They have gone short-handed,
although I could not just remember them. I know that in 1854
or 1855 a number of them were short-handed.
10,964. Was there any particular reason why that was the case in
1854 and 1855?-There were more ships than men. I believe the
Russian war was the principal cause of it.
10,965. Had a number of Shetland men gone into the navy at that
time?-They had gone south, not perhaps into the navy; but there
was it great demand for men in the merchant trade. For the last
two or three years, also, the men have not been in excess. When
the ships were done, the men were generally done too, so that they
were about equally matched.
10,966. You refer to the statement in the Report: 'Any man who
carried his custom to any other shop than to that of the agent
employing him, would run the risk of being a marked man?'-
Yes; I deny that most emphatically.
10,967. Is it the case that the men generally get what outfit they
require at the shop of the merchant engaging them?-It is
generally the case, but we engage plenty of men who go elsewhere
to buy their goods. They are good men, and we are glad to get
them back again. We never care a straw about whether they buy
goods from us or not.
10,968. Are these men who have money of their own?-Yes. We
give them their first month's advance in money, and they can go
where they like.
10,969. What proportion of the men spend their month's advance
elsewhere?-I don't think there is large proportion of them who do
that. We generally find that we get on pretty well with the men,
and that they prefer buying their goods from us. They tell us, but I
don't know for the truth of it, that they get better value in our place
than they get elsewhere.
10,970. Suppose a man gets his outfit from another agent, or from
another shop, and comes back to you next year, is there any note
kept of him having done so?-Never. There are several men who
do that regularly, and we never quarrel them for it. They are good
men and we don't like to lose sight of them for the sake of their
custom. We always like to get hold a good man whether we get
his custom or not and therefore we never quarrel with them on that
account.
10,971. Suppose a man is in your debt at the beginning of the year,
is he likely to go and get his supplies from another shop?-I could
not say about that; but debt does not constitute any hold over him
at all.
10,972. Do you know any case of a man in your debt at the
beginning of the year having gone and got his supplies from
another merchant?-I believe he would take part from us and
part from others.
10,973. But do you know any case of that kind where the man
went to another merchant for his supplies?-I could not point to
any case.
10,974. Does any communication take place between different
shipping agents with regard to the men who are in debt?-Not
now. Formerly we used to hand our accounts from one to the
other.
10,975. Did you exchange lists of the indebted men?-There were
lists given for the other agents to try to recover the debts for us if
possible.
10,976. Was that done with the view of obtaining payment from
the agent by whom the men were engaged of a debt due to another
merchant incurred in previous years?-Yes; but it was only done
with the man's consent. Sometimes we recovered it, and
sometimes not.
10,977. When you say that it was done with the man's consent, do
you mean that at settling time the agent, who was aware that you
were a creditor of the man, would arrange with him to hand over
part of his wages to his former creditor?-Quite so, if the man was
willing to do so.
10,978. The agent might advise him to do that, but not compel
him?-He never could compel him. He would simply ask him if
he chose to pay the claim; and if he chose not to pay it, there was
no compulsion whatever.
10,979. Did you ever know of a man refusing to do that?-Very
often.
10,980. In that case I presume that since the Merchant Shipping
Act of 1854, there were no means compelling payment?-None;
except, of course, that he could be taken to the Small Debt Court.
10,981. And there was no security, no lien on the men's wages?-
None whatever. There never was that at any time. It was purely
with his own consent if the money was used for paying another
agent's account,
10,982. How long is it since these lists were interchanged between
the agents in Lerwick?-It was previous to 1854. Perhaps there
may have been some handed since then; one agent may have
handed his accounts to another, in order to get recovery of them.
10,983. You say you have been nineteen years with Mr. Leask,
and therefore these lists must have been interchanged within your
time?-Yes; I was first employed in 1853.
10,984. Do you say that there have been no lists of that kind
exchanged, and no information communicated with regard to the
men's debts, since 1853 or 1854?-I don't remember any since
1854: there may have been, but I don't remember handing any lists
or receiving any lists since that time.
10,985. Or receiving any information at all with regard to the debts
of the men?-Not since the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854.
10,986. Why do you fix that date?-Because at that date it became
compulsory to have the men shipped and discharged before the
shipping master.
10,987. Has that always been done since 1854?-Not always. It
was done I think, in 1854 and 1855, and it was not done again until
1867. In that year it commenced again, and the wages were all
paid down in presence of the shipping master.
10,988. But if the Act was not observed with regard to the payment
of wages in presence of the shipping master, how did it interfere
with the passing of these lists?-The practice was given up.
10,989. At that time was it the practice for the men [Page 269] to
receive payment of their wages at the agent's office?-Yes.
10,990. Was that done during all the period from 1854 down to
1867?-Yes, but not including 1867.
10,991. Can you say that, during that period you retained no
portion of any man's wages for debt of another agent?-It is quite
possible we may have done so, but I don't recollect.
10,992. I suppose your books will show whether any portion of a
man's wages was so retained?-Yes.
10,993. Do you remember any case in which that was done?-I
don't remember any particular case, but it is quite possible; in fact,
it is even probable.
10,994. Do you think that some retentions of that kind took place
every year?-I don't think so. Of course, if a man gave an order
on Mr Leask to pay a debt or an account for him, he was bound to
pay it if the man had funds in his hand. I have seen that done-
that a seaman gave a special order in favour of another agent or
another party.
10,995. Is that done frequently?-Not very often, but it is done
sometimes.
10,996. Is it done by the man of his own accord?-Decidedly.
10,997. But probably at the request of the other agent?-I don't
know about that. For instance, instead of getting money from the
seaman, he might get an order on the agent, the same as he might
get an order on the bank.
10,998. But the other agent who was the creditor of the seaman
does not know necessarily that you have money belonging to the
man in your hands as agent?-Not unless the man tells him.
10,999. Do you not still pass lists each year from one agent to
another, stating the sums which are due to you by the men?-No.
11,000. I do not speak merely of seamen indebted to you; but
do you not pass lists of all seamen whom you engage for the
whaling?-Not at all. We have no occasion to do that, because it
could serve no purpose whatever.
11,001. Why?-Because an agent who had a seaman in his books
as a debtor would know at once whether that man was engaged by
another agent in a particular year.
11,002. Is it the practice for one agent to be allowed to inspect the
lists or books of another, in order to ascertain what seamen have
been engaged?-I never did that or saw it done.
11,003. I suppose there are means of finding out in a small place
like Lerwick what seamen in a particular year have been
engaged?-We sometimes found it out in the Shipping Office.
Whenever we wanted to see where a man was, we went there.
11,004. Can you state distinctly that in every case where such an
order is presented for payment of a seaman's debt, it is presented
without any previous communication between the agents?-I
suppose it always is, but I don't know. The one agent has no
interest whatever in recovering debts for the other; he gets no
remuneration for it.
11,005. If that is the case, why does he not refuse to honour the
order?-I would not dishonour the order if the man had funds in
our hands.
11,006. But the Merchant Shipping Act requires that all wages
shall be paid, not in that way, not in obedience to any order, but
in the presence of the shipping master in hard cash?-That is
true; but it still allows a man to pay his debts.
11,007. Should not the agent leave him to pay his debts himself,
and so obey the law?-It is merely as an accommodation to the
seaman that we pay his debt for him, and we trust to his honesty
that he will repay it to us.
11,008. But still, on the part both of the agent and of the seaman,
is not that an infringement of the law?-No, it is not an
infringement.
11,009. Does not the law require the whole wages, without any
deductions other than those specified in the Act to be paid over in
presence of the shipping master?-Yes, and that is always done.
11,010. If that is so, how is it possible, for you in obedience to
such an order to retain the man's wages?-I do not retain them.
The man comes back and repays his debt.
11,011. Then that is not retention in obedience to an order?-It is
not retention: there has been no retention since 1867. Every man,
since then has got his money in the Shipping Office, and those
who had accounts in the shop came back and paid them.
11,012. Then how did it happen that you spoke of these orders
being implemented?-I was referring to the period before 1867.
11,013. Your statement now is, that no such orders have been
given, or acted upon since 1867?-They may have been given,
but there have been no deductions from the seaman's wages since
then, except the captain's account, the first month's advance, and
the allotments. With these exceptions, the whole money was paid
down to the seaman in the Shipping Office, and when he had an
account in the shop he came and paid it.
11,014. Will your books show that?-Yes.
11,015. In what way do, your books prove it?-I request that the
shipping master be called upon to prove it.
11,016. To prove what?-To prove that the men get their wages in
money in the Shipping Office.
11,017. I intend to call Mr. Gatherer to prove that but you have
come forward in order to contradict Mr. Hamilton's report, and the
question I asked is, in what way do your books prove that no such
orders have been honoured since 1867?-Mr. Gatherer will prove
that since 1867 the men have got their wages paid down to them in
money.
11,018. Am I to record that your books do not prove that?-They
do not prove that. I want the shipping master to prove it.
11,019 Then your books will not prove that all the wages have
been paid to the men in cash, and that no sum has been retained in
obedience to a seaman's order?-That can be proved by the
shipping master.
11,020. But your books do not prove it?-We have accounts with
the seamen, and when they get their wages, they invariably come
back and settle these accounts. We do not retain anything; we
invariably pay them the whole money that is due to them, and they
can either come back or not as they choose.
11,021. Who is it that hands over the money to the men on behalf
of Mr. Leask in presence of the shipping master?-It is generally
Mr. Andrew Jamieson, and sometimes myself. One of us attends
at the Shipping Office along with the men, and hands over their
cash to them in presence of the shipping master.
11,022. Do you generally find that a seaman comes down to your
office immediately after he has been paid, and settles any account
that he is due?-We generally find that that is the case; in fact,
always when they have accounts they come down and settle them.
11,023. Have you known any exceptions to that rule?-I have
only known one man who tried not to come down and settle his
account.
11,024. Who was he?-He was a lad belonging to Lunnasting,
named Robert Grains. He declined to come down and settle his
account but he afterwards came on the same day. I think that
occurred two years ago.
11,025. When was he asked to come?-I suppose he never was
asked particularly; but it is understood that every man has to pay
his debt when he is able.
11,026. But you say that he declined?-I believe he declined on
the ground that he required the money. I don't know whether he
was asked to come or whether he merely said of his own accord
that he would not be able to pay his account just now, as he
required the money.
11,027. Was that done in your presence?-No; it was in Mr.
Jamieson's.
11,028. Did you see the man when he came back to the office?-I
don't remember seeing him. It was Mr. Jamieson who told me of
the circumstance.
11,029. When a man comes down to settle after receiving [Page
270] his money at the Shipping Office does he hand over the
whole money into your hands, or does he merely settle the amount
of his account?-He sometimes does the one way and sometimes
the other.
11,030. Sometimes he may hand over the whole money for you to
settle with him?-Yes; and at other times he asks what he is due.
11,031. When he hands over the whole money to you, does it ever
happen that the accounts of another shipping agent are settled at
the same time in your office-It has not happened since 1867.
11,032. Is there anything in the state of the law to prevent that
from being done if the man has got his cash at the Shipping
Office?-I don't think there is.
11,033. Then why has it never been done since 1867?-I don't
know; it has just happened so.
11,034. Was that done regularly previous to 1867?-A few
instances might have occurred, but it was not very general
practice at all.
11,035. In what way before that time did you know that a man
was owing another agent unless you had the sum intimated to
you by that agent, or had lists exchanged?-The agent very likely
ascertained when the man was to settle and came along.
11,036. He had ascertained where the man was employed?-Yes,
in what ship.
11,037. Did he do that by means of information obtained at the
Custom House?-Possibly he might.
11,038. Was it not by information obtained from the agent who
employed the man?-It was possibly from the Custom House, or
from some other party.
11,039. But it might have been from the agent who engaged the
man?-It is quite possible.
11,040. Was it not a regular practice to give information of that
sort?-No.
11,041. Was such an arrangement made more commonly when the
man was pretty deep in debt?-Yes.
11,042. The agent in whose books he had run up a considerable
debt would look sharper after him, and would make inquiries at
the other agent by whom he was employed?-Yes.
11,043. So that at least to that extent there was regular system of
communication between the agents?-It was not done to any great
extent; it was merely trifling. There were not so many men in debt
as to make it a common practice.
11,044. It might come to something considerable where several
hundreds of men were engaged in the whale fishing?-Yes; but
when they were divided among four agents there would not be
many.
11,045. But last year you engaged 280 men yourselves?-Yes.
11,046. And in some years the number of men employed in
the sealing and whaling would be greater?-Yes. I think we
employed about 500 in 1853.
11,047. So that among 500 men employed by you it was very
probable that a considerable number should be in your debt?-I
don't think there were many of them indebted at all. Last year
there were very few indeed.
11,048. But in past years there may have been a very considerable
number when you had 500 or 600 men engaged?-When the
fishing proved a failure the debts would be very considerable.
11,049. In going through Mr. Hamilton's Report, you have omitted
a sentence in which he says: 'It is quite common for allotments of
wages to be made out in favour of the agents, or, in other words,
for the agent to undertake to pay to himself part of the seaman's
wages.' Is it quite common for the allotment notes to be made out
in favour of the agents?-Yes, it was quite common.
11,050. Is it sometimes done still?-We have never done it in Mr.
Leask's office but I believe it has been done elsewhere.
11,051. Why was it never done in Mr. Leask's office?-We just
trusted to the men's honesty.
11,052. Have you never taken an allotment note, in which the
party to whom it was payable was, not Mr. Leask, but some one
in his office?-We never took out allotment notes at all.
11,053. When you engage a man, does he not generally take an
allotment note?-Not generally.
11,054. Does he do it at all?-Not at all.
11,055. He gets his supplies from you without any allotment
note?-Yes; without us having any guarantee at all. We have
advanced both goods and money, to great extent, without any
allotment note.
11,056. But in these cases you were aware that he had no
allotment note?-We have never issued any allotment notes
for the last six years, except, perhaps, in a very rare case. We
may have given one or so.
11,057. Of course, you would not have advanced him the money
had there been an allotment note left in the hands of his with or
other relations, which they were entitled to draw from you?-We
would have advanced money to parties whom we knew.
11,058. Have you frequently given money to a seaman's family
during his absence?-Yes.
11,059. But more frequently supplies?-Not more frequently. It
was just as they wished it. If they wished supplies they got them,
but we did not wish them to take them.
11,060. What further observation have you to make on Mr.
Hamilton's Report?-Towards the end he says that the men
employed are not free agents. I deny that. I say they are free
agents, and that they are at perfect liberty, so far as my experience
goes. They can engage with whoever they please, and take their
supplies anywhere they please.
11,061. In denying that statement, do you intend your denial to be
applicable both to the men who are in your debt and to those who
are clear?-Decidedly. The debt constitutes no hold whatever
over the men.
11,062. Even where the man has a family, and is resident in
Shetland?-Yes, even then.
11,063. And even where he is a tenant of Mr. Leask, if that
happens to be the case?-Yes. Even in that case he may go
where he pleases. I never yet saw Mr. Leask compel a man in
any way. Then Mr. Hamilton says: 'While the men employed
are not free agents, however fair an employer may desire to be,
he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand,
the employer wishes to make all he can out of those he employs,
and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has
unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the results of
their labour.' That also I deny. There is an insinuation there that
the employers do not do what is right; and I think the word
'appropriating' does not look very well; but it is not correct. The
Shetland people, in general, are pretty well able to take care of
themselves, and they are sharp enough in settling, to look out that
they have got fair play.
11,064. And even to take care that the prices charged for goods are
not unreasonably high?-Yes; they take very good care of that.
11,065. Have you many disputes as to the prices of goods at
settling time?-Very few indeed.
11,066. Does that arise from the fact that your charges are very
moderate, or from the fact that the Shetlanders don't pay much
attention to that matter?-They pay great attention to it, and an
article is always priced before they buy it. I am quite sure that
our prices are not higher than those of others; at least so far as
my experience goes.
11,067. There is another statement in Mr. Hamilton's Report, to
which you have not referred,-that there is no time fixed for
settlement with the men who go to the seal and whale fishing?-
That is quite correct; but it is our interest to get the work of
settlement done as speedily as possible.
11,068. In what way is it your interest?-To get the work off our
hands. We could settle with a dozen men nearly in the same time
that we can with two or three; and if they would all come and get
settled with in one or two days, that would be so much less trouble
to us.
11,069. Is it the case that the men, after being discharged from the
ship and before settlement, continue to run accounts with you to
any extent?-Very seldom.
11,070. Does it happen to some extent?-Only to a very small
extent. They seldom buy anything after they have landed. Here
[showing] is a crew of 27 men [Page 271] landed from the
'Esquimaux' on 28th April 1870, and they were all paid off by
14th May, or in about two weeks.
11,071. That was for a sealing voyage. Did these men engage
again for the whaling?-I believe some of them did.
11,072. Were others going south?-Some of them went south, I
daresay, and a good number of them went to the home fishing.
11,073. Have you had any case of as early a discharge in the case
of a whaling voyage?-Here [showing] is the crew of the 'Polynia'
last year. Nineteen men were landed on 26th October, and they
were all paid off and discharged by 29th November, or in about a
month. When the men don't come to be discharged, it is entirely
their own fault, not ours. We can't compel them to come. We
wish them to come as soon as possible and to settle; but sometimes
they don't find it convenient. Some of them may live 20 or 30
miles from Lerwick, and they don't care about coming until they
have to come deal about some other business.
11,074. Is it not often more than a month before they are
discharged?-Perhaps it is. Two or three of them may stay
away till the end of the year, but that is the men's fault, not the
agent's. Mr. Hamilton says in the same paragraph: 'When he
(the agent) does pay to the man the balance of wages due to him
before the superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all
back to the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or
greater amount.' I deny that. The man he may hand it back or not,
as he chooses, but if he is an honest man he will pay his debt.
11,075. But you don't deny that in most cases there is a debt due to
the shop?-In most cases they have an account with the shop, but
in some cases it is very small.
11,076. Can you give me an idea from your books what is the
average amount of the debts due by the men engaged in the
Greenland fishing?-I could not do that just now; but I can state
that, in 1865,-which was before we were compelled to settle
with them in the Custom House, we paid to the men of the
'Camperdown'-42 men-£1120, 12s. 3d. in cash; and out of
that number Mr. Leask had only one tenant.
11,077. That would be about £25 apiece?-Yes, on an average;
but some of these men had upwards of £50 to get. One of them
had £54, 18s. 5d. to get, and he got it in cash.
11,078. Was that a very successful year?-Yes; and the following
year was somewhat similar to it.
11,079. What would be the amount of goods supplied to these men
at starting, or to their families during their absence?-About £400
for the whole crew.
11,080. That would be about £9 apiece for the 42 men?-Yes,
about that.
11,081. Would that be the average amount of a Greenlandman's
account for the season?-No; it would be much more than the
average. Less than the half of that would be nearer the average.
11,082. But the amount of receipts due upon that voyage was
considerably above the average?-Yes; it was it very exceptional
voyage.
11,083. Was it twice as much as usual?-Yes; perhaps about that.
11,084. Do you mean that £4 or £5 is the average amount of the
account due by a seaman engaged in the whaling?-I never made
any calculation about it but I should think it would be somewhere
about that.
11,085. In what way are your accounts with these men kept? Is
there an account kept in the name of each man?-Yes. [Produces
book.] There [showing] is the account I have been referring to of
the 'Camperdown.'
11,086. You have a ledger for each ship?-Yes.
11,087. And this account shows the whole transactions for
1865?-Yes.
11,088. This [showing] is the account of Hercules Hunter,
Lerwick, who was engaged in the seal fishing of 1865 at 50s.
per month, and 2s. 6d. per ton of oil-money; 2s. 6d. per 1000
skins, and 2s. 6d. per ton of bone?-Yes.
11,089. The first entry on March 4, 1865, consists of two advances
of 20s. each to account of his first month's pay, and 3s. as his
subscription to the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, for which Mr.
Leask was agent?-Yes.
11,090. The next entry is half of note to Mr. Hay for rent, £1, 18s.
11/2d. Had Mr. Leask undertaken to pay his rent?-Yes.
11,091. The following entries, to the amount of £2, 0s. 31/2d., are
for outfit at starting, consisting both of clothing and private
stores?-Yes.
11,092. Then follows-insurance, 5s. 10d.: what is that?-The
insurance is on the outfit, and it is charged over and above the
month's advance. The advance is made by the owner of the ship;
and what is over that is at risk, which is covered by insurance.
We get it done for them, and they refund the premium.
11,093 Do you employ a broker to effect an insurance on all your
advances of that kind?-Yes.
11,094. Then the 5s. 10d. is the amount of insurance paid by you
upon the sum of £3, 10s., which was the amount of cash and goods
advanced to this man at the time of, or after, his sailing?-Yes.
11,095. There is also a balance of the old debt: was that not
included in the insurance?-No.
11,096. On April 27 the man returns from his voyage and receives
a payment in cash of 20s., with certain additional supplies; and on
28th April you enter to his credit the sum of £30, 8s. 4d. for wages,
oil-money, and skin-money due to him upon that voyage?-Yes;
that is the first payment.
11,097. His account runs on from 2d May till 4th December of the
same year, when it is settled, during which time he has been upon
a whaling voyage?-Yes.
11,098. At the commencement of that voyage on 2d May he
receives £5 in cash?-Yes; that is to account of oil-money.
11,099. On 8th May he receives £5 in cash; on 16th May, £3;
November 1, 3s.; November 18, 2s.; and on November 1 also there
is £1, 16s. entered as having been paid at Dundee: that would be
advanced by the shipowners there?-Yes.
11,100. On November 22d he receives £8 in cash, and a balance
was paid on December 4 of £18, 8s.?-Yes.
11,101. The rest of the debits in that account consist of supplies
for himself during the voyage in the captain's account and supplies
to his family of meal, sugar, soap, tea, and other items; and the
total amount of his credit for wages, oil-money, bone-money, for
the two voyages, was £58, 19s. 2d.?-Yes.
11,102. In that case the settlement took place in December?-Yes,
the final settlement.
11,103. The whaling voyage would come to an end in
November?-Yes, not sooner; so that the man had only been
at home about a month when he was settled with.
11,104. But during all that time you had in your hands the
proceeds of his first successful sealing voyage?-Yes, except
what he had got. I think he got £19 in cash out of the £30,
besides his goods up to the 16th May.
11,105. And the balance of £11 remained in your hands as a
security for the advances he was getting up to the settlement
in December?-Yes.
11,106. Then, on November 20, he was credited with the
additional sums due for the whaling voyage, amounting to
£28, 4s. 10d.; so that, in addition to supplying him with goods,
upon which you had your profit you were, during all that time
acting as his banker?-No; he had got £19 to account by 16th
May.
11,107. But to the extent of £11 you were acting as his banker?-
Yes.
11,108. And he was not getting interest for it?-I think he should
have paid interest.
11,109. Not when you had £11 of his in your hands?-No; but we
charged him no interest when we advanced him more.
[Page 272]
11,110. But you charged insurance upon the goods he got, and you
had your profit upon the goods?-Yes; but we had to lie out of the
money, for some time. We might have lain out of that money for
eight or nine months.
11,111. Had you sold him these goods at a cash price, and not at a
credit price?-At a cash price; we have only one price. We make
no difference between cash and credit.
11,112. Was the oil-money that is credited to the man on 20th
November the first payment of oil-money?-It was the first
payment of oil-money for the Davis Straits voyage.
11,113. When was the second payment of oil-money made?-It is
credited on 19th February 1866.
11,114. It only amounted to 15s.?-Yes. I don't believe that we
had received the first money at the time when we paid the man, so
that we had no money on hand.
11,115. Take the case, now, of a man living in the country, George
Georgeson in Walls. He receives, in like manner, on 4th March,
£2, 13s. in cash, and he gets supplies, and is debited with
insurance in the same way. On April 27 he has the same amount
to receive for the sealing voyage, and on May 17 he gets £12,10s.
in cash; on September 9, £1 per order: was that an allotment
note?-It was money to account.
11,116. It would be advanced to his wife upon the security of the
voyage?-Yes.
11,117. On November 20 there is £5; and £1, 6s. for cash at
Dundee and Aberdeen. He is credited with the same amount of
wages as Hunter, and on December 4 he is credited with second
payment for the sealing voyage £3, 15s. Then, on December 26,
he receives £28, 2s. 6d. in cash; and the rest of his debits consist
of supplies to his family in sugar, tea, aqua, canvas, and other
small article, but to a very small extent. I suppose the supplies
taken out in that way by people living out of Lerwick are usually
less than in the case of those who live in town?-Yes. It costs
them both expense and trouble to get them from Lerwick.
11,118. There is also the case of James Twatt, Sandness, who is
debited on March 4 with £2, 3s. to advance; and then on March 4
and 9 he gets supplies to the amount of £3, 38. 71/2d., upon which
there is charged 6s. 51/2d. of insurance. On April 27, on his return
from the sealing voyage he gets 20s. in cash, and he is credited
with £20, 10s., for wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes; I
think he was only at the sealing voyage.
11,119. Then, on May 27, he gets £7 in cash; July 10, 15s.;
September 11, £2; and on December 4 he is credited with second
payment for sealing voyage, £2, 5s. On March 6 he receives 2s.
in cash; and on the same date he is settled with, by receiving £3,
1s. 3d. in cash. The total proceeds of that voyage to him were £22,
15s.?-Yes.
11,120. How many ships had you in 1865?-I think we had seven.
11,121. Were they all as fortunate as this one?-No, none of the
others were so fortunate.
11,122. Was 1866 as good a year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes.
11,123. I see that in that year Adam Moar had £36, 2s. upon the
two voyages; of that he got in cash at starting, and the amount of
the Shipwrecked Mariners' ticket, 33s.; on May 2, cash 40s.;
having been credited on that date with the proceeds of the sealing
voyage, £21, 9s. 6d.; May 8, cash 10s.; May 17, cash 32s.; May 19,
cash 6d.; August 16, cash 8s.; and on June 22, 1866, there is an
entry to G.R. Tait's account, £3, 2s. 10d.: was that a previous
account due to Mr. Tait, which you had paid for the man?-Yes.
11,124. Then, on August 16, there is cash 8s.; October 22, cash £6,
captain's account £1, 7s. 6d.; cash at Dundee for travelling charge,
£1, 6s. I thought the engagement was, that when the men were
carried past Lerwick, their travelling expenses home were paid to
them?-That is generally the case.
11,125. Then why is that sum charged against the man?-It has
been something additional; it was advanced besides what was paid
by the owner.
11,126. On October 23 he is credited with the proceeds of the
whaling voyage, and on October 31 his account is settled by a cash
payment of £4; the difference between the previous cash payments
and this balance being made up of supplies to himself and the
family-Yes.
11,127. The second payment on both voyages was made on
January 1, 1867, and he got £4, 8s. 1d. in cash?-Yes; that was
when he came in to settle.
11,128. Was 1867 a good year for the 'Camperdown'?-Yes; both
1867 and 1868 were pretty fair years for her, but not so good as the
former years.
11,129. Have you anything to show the state of accounts in 1870
or 1871?-Yes. [Produces book for 1871.] It is not the case that
we do not keep accounts with the men, because we pay them in
presence of the shipping master, and then they pay their accounts
to us.
11,130. Do you keep your accounts now in a different way from
what you did when the book was current upon which I have been
examining you?-No; they are kept quite in the same way.
11,131. I see that the account for 1871, which you have produced,
is not yet settled?-No; it is for the 'Polynia,' another ship.
11,132. Why have you selected these two ships?-Because the one
was previous to the compulsory settlement at the Custom House,
and the other was not.
11,133. Have you not had the 'Camperdown' since?-Yes.
11,134. Were the ''Camperdown' and 'Polynia' the best paying
ships in this year?-The 'Camperdown' was, but not the 'Polynia.'
11,135. And the 'Polynia' was not the most successful ship since
1868?-No, nor before.
11,136. Take the account of Peter Blance, Yell. His wages
were 20s. per month, 1s. per ton of oil, and 2s. per thousand
seal-skins?-Yes, he was a young hand.
11,137. He gets an advance at first of 4s. as a payment to the
Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund; then he gets an outfit, £3, 2s., upon
which 2s. 1d. of insurance is charged. On April 17 he receives in
cash 5s., and at that date he is in your debt for £1, 7s. 8d., after
crediting him with wages, oil-money, and skin-money?-Yes.
11,138. That balance is carried on to a new account in which there
appear certain supplies, and he is credited with his share of the
summer fishing, and also with the second payment of oil and skin
money, and another item of 2s, making up £16, 1s. 3d.; and also
with the second payment of oil and skin money, and another item
of 2s. making up £16, 1s. 3d.?-Yes.
11,139. On November 29, there is entered to balance rent account,
£12, 14s. 8d. Is Blance one Leask's tenants?-His mother was a
tenant of Mr. Leask.
11,140. Then the £12,14s. 8d. was applied to square off that
account?-Yes; it was put to his mother's credit.
11,141. The sum due to Blance on April 17, on the sealing voyage,
was £3, 14s. 4d.?-Yes, that was the money paid to him at the
Custom House, before the shipping master.
11,142. When was it transferred to your hands?-He would come
down to the office and pay it back. I cannot say exactly at what
hour he came, but he would come on the same day.
11,143. Then the £12, 14s. 8d., which was due for rent, was
transferred by you to the rent account?-Yes, by his own order.
11,144. Was it done at your request?-It was at his mother's
request.
11,145. How old is Blance?-He is about 20.
11,146. Had you had any correspondence with his mother about
transferring that money to her amount his mother had been in
arrear, or some time. She was a widow, and Mr. Leask had been
rather obliging her by allowing her to remain where she was for
some years, when she was not able to pay any rent. Then when her
son was grown up, and was able to pay the debt, he did so.
[Page 273]
11,147. Here [showing] is the account of William Johnston, jun.,
Yell: was he another young hand?-Yes; he was in the same
position as Blance. Both their fathers were drowned a few years
ago, and their mothers lived in Yell.
11,148. In May, the balance against him was £4, 14s. 11d., and
that includes the balance from a previous fish ledger, of £3, 1s.
6d.?-Yes; he was at the Faroe fishing and was rather unfortunate.
11,149. That is carried into a new account in May, and after
allowing him his share of the summer ling fishing, £14, 13s. 9d.,
and his second payment of oil-money, the balance carried to the
rent ledger against him is £8, 17s. 11d.?-Yes.
11,150. That was for his mother's rent in the same way as in the
case of Blance?-Yes; these are the only two cases of the kind in
Mr. Leask's transactions with his tenants.
11,151. Here [showing] is the account of Magnus Arthur, Yell:
was he also a young hand?-Yes.
11,152. Last year he got advances to the amount of 19s. 10d., on
which 1s. 7d. of insurance was charged; afterwards, on April 17,
he received in cash 5s., and £1, 16s. 11d. at settlement in
November; the amount on his receipts from wages, oil-money,
and skin-money, being £4, 19s. 10d.?-Yes.
11,153. I see that in the case of Hugh Arthur, Nesting, the amount
due to him in wages, oil-money, and skin-money, was £7, 15s. 6d.,
in April 1871; and the account at his debit for previous advances
was £7, 11s. 8d., part of which consisted of a payment of £2, 5s.
upon an advance note in favour of J. Dalzell?-Yes.
11,154. That sum of £7, 15s. 6d. was paid, I presume, before the
superintendent at the Custom House?-Yes, after deducting the
£2, 5s., the master's account, and the shipping master's fees.
11,155. And then Arthur walked down to your office and paid
the amount of his account?-Yes, he came down and settled the
account he was due to Mr. Leask for advances.
11,156. Is that done universally by the men when there is an
account due by them?-Yes, after receiving their money they
walk back to the office and pay their accounts.
11,157. Do they generally accompany you down to the office
or the clerk who sees them paid?-One of us sometimes
accompanies them to the office but we don't wait for them;
they come back when they please.
11,158. Do you always desire them to come down to the office
and settle their accounts when they leave the shipping master's
office?-Of course, they understand they have to pay their
accounts. We don't require to tell them that. The men are very
honest on the whole, and don't require to be asked to pay what
they are due.
11,159. Except in the case of a man like Robert Grains?-That is
the only exception I have known since 1867.
11,160. I suppose if any of them showed a reluctance to settle their
account at the time, then either you or the clerk who attended at
the shipping master's office would remind them of it and ask them
to come down to your shop to settle?-Except in that one case, I
never saw even the least hint of that.
11,161. There is generally a second payment due to the men for
oil-money?-Invariably.
11,162. Where is that second payment of oil-money settled?-In
the agent's office now.
11,163. Why is it not also paid before the shipping master?-
Because it creates a great amount of trouble to go there with every
man to make the settlement. It entails an immense amount of
labour.
11,164. Then the final settlement of accounts between you and
the seamen does not take place until the second payment becomes
due?-No.
11,165. And generally the actual settlement is some time after it
becomes due?-Yes, a short time after.
11,166. Does it generally take place at the time when the men are
engaging for their next year's voyage?-No. We are so busy then
that we could not take time to settle their balances. There may be
a few cases of that kind, but very few.
11,167. But with men from the North Isles, is it not the case that
the settlement for the second payment takes place when they come
in to arrange for the next year's voyage?-Yes.
11,168. And when they take supplies at that time, are these put
into the account for the rising year?-Yes, if they take supplies
after they engage.
11,169. They don't go into the account on which the oil-money
has been paid?-That account has been previously settled.
11,172. But I am putting the case of a man wife receives his final
payment of oil-money at the same time that he engages for the
voyage of the rising year?-He receives his oil-money, if he
wishes it, in cash, and if he wishes an advance on the rising year,
he gets it besides.
11,171. In point of fact, what is generally done?-We pay the
second payment of oil-money in cash; and then afterwards, if the
man wishes any advance, and if it is a person we know, we will
trust him with it.
11,172. But he is entitled to his advance in any case?-He is not
entitled to get goods unless we choose to give them to him.
11,173. Is that advance always paid in money?-It is always paid
in money if they wish it. All they are entitled to is one month's
advance, and that they are entitled to receive in money.
11,174. But when a man engages for the whale fishing, and asks
for his first month's pay in advance, is it the case that, in point of
fact, he generally gets it in cash, or does he generally take it in
goods?-We always give advance notes at the shipping office,
stamped notes payable three days after the ship leaves, provided
the men go in the ship.
11,175. Then you don't give either goods or money until after the
man is actually away?-Yes. When man is engaged he gets his
clothes to take with him, and if he wishes to give us his advance
note we will cash it afterwards.
11,176. Do you give him his clothes in addition to the amount of
his advance note?-If he wishes it.
11,177. But I see in all the entries I have been looking at, that the
advance note is entered to his debit?-We debit him with what he
receives, and he gives us back the advance note.
11,178. Here, for instance, is an entry of cash 30s. that actually
paid to the man in cash?-Yes. He asks us to give him what
money he requires, and he leaves his advance note with us. If he
wants to get 40s. or 45s., he would get it; but if he says that he
only wants 30s., we don't give him more than he requires.
11,179. A man who engages in that way has perhaps to get the
amount of his last payment of oil-money for the previous year, and
also cash for his advance?-Yes. That may happen very often,
and it does happen. He first gets his payment of oil-money, and
after he re-engages he gets his advance.
11,180. If a man in these circumstances wants a supply of meal or
clothing or anything to be sent to his family, does that appear in
your books, or is it paid for in money out of the monthly sums
which his family may have to receive?-The whole of these things
are kept in one account.
11,181. But suppose he buys meal at that time, will that enter your
books at all?-Anything that he does not pay for will be entered.
11,182. But he may pay for it out of that very cash which is
entered here as having been received by him?-He may do so;
but we don't mark down anything that is paid for.
11,183. When a man has his oil-money to receive, and is taking his
month's advance at the same time, is it not usual to ask him if he
wants any supplies for his family?-I don't know that it is. We
don't obtrude questions of that kind upon them.
11,184. Does he not often take supplies for his family?-Very
often.
11,185. And these are paid for in cash out of the cash he is so
receiving from you?-Very often.
[Page 274]
11,186. But you say you don't obtrude questions about his wants
upon him at that particular time?-No. We never engage a man to
be paid in goods at all. We engage every man to be paid in money;
and if he is paid in goods it is his own fault.
11,187. But, in point of fact, a man often does take goods, at that
time?-Very often. We make it, a point to give them as cheap or
cheaper than they could get them elsewhere.
11,188. Therefore although there is an entry in your books of
oil-money being paid to a man at a certain date, and of a payment
of 30s. or £2 being made to him at the same time, on account of
his first month's advance, it may happen, and it does happen, that
that money is paid back into your till for goods supplied the
time?-A part of it may be; but the place where the cash is kept,
and the place where the goods are sold, are two separate places, so
that the things must be kept quite distinct. The shop is on the
ground floor opening from the street, and the office is up a lane on
the second floor, where we have also a warehouse or general store
for drapery goods. A man, when he gets his money in the office,
may go and buy drapery goods on the second floor, or he may go
down stairs and buy provisions. We don't know what he does.
11,189. You do know, in point of fact, that he often does spend his
money there and then?-I have no doubt he does.
11,190. But you are not aware that he is often asked if he wants
anything at the time?-I am not aware of that. It is not done now
at any rate.
11,191. Do you know whether it was the practice, before the
evidence was given in Edinburgh last year, to ask a man on such
occasions what goods he would take?-Our shopmen might have
done so. Every shopman is keen to sell as much as he can; and
when he is aware of a man getting plenty of money, he would
likely ask him, 'Are you going to buy anything?'
11,192. You have now handed in to me the abstract from which
you previously spoke, with regard to the 'Camperdown's' voyages
in 1865, which shows a total of £1537, 10s. 3d. for the men's
earnings for both the sealing and whaling that year, and a total
amount of cash paid to them, both during the season and at the
end, of £1120, 12s. 3d., leaving a balance of £416, 18s. for goods
sold?-Yes.
11,193. Do you think that shows about the average proportion of
goods and cash received by each man during each year?-I should
say that it does.
11,194. Was that not an unusually favourable season for the
whaling?-For most of the vessels it was.
11,195. But were not these voyages of the 'Camperdown' very
considerably above the average with respect to the earnings of the
men?-They were above the average.
11,196. Do you also say that the accounts incurred by the men that
year were above the average?-I should certainly say so. They
bought more than they otherwise would or could have done.
11,197. Why should that be so? The men did not know at the
commencement of the season whether the fishing was to be a
successful one or not?-The greater quantity of the goods are
bought after the sealing voyage, when they have earned a
considerable sum of money.
11,198. Then the sealing voyage that year was unusually
successful?-Yes. The principal part of the earnings were
from it; and it was after it that the greater portion, or a great
portion, of the accounts were contracted.
11,199. And you think the fact of the sealing voyage being
unusually successful led the men or their families to incur larger
accounts to you than they would otherwise have done?-I should
certainly say so; because when the men's earnings are small, we
have to restrict them. In this case, however, they had plenty of
means, and we did not refuse them what they wanted.
11,200. With regard to the sum due at the end of the season, and
paid in cash before the superintendent, what proportion of it
should you say was refunded immediately in payment of accounts
due at the shop?-I suppose about one-fourth, calculating from the
case I have given.
11,201. I think if you look at the books which you have showed
me, you will find that many of the accounts show that a much
larger sum would require to be repaid. That may have been the
proportion for a special ship, but it does not follow that that is a
fair criterion?-I took that book simply because it came first to
hand. I did not take it specially; but of course, it will show more
goods sold, in proportion to the amount of earning than any other
book we have got.
11,202. But can you not tell me what proportion of the money paid
before the superintendent the man has to come down to and hand
over to you in payment of his account?-The men, when they are
landed, and before settlement, often get sums in cash to account,
and sometimes pretty heavy sums, before they get their money at
the Shipping Office.
11,203. But you would not do that if the men were in debt to you
for goods?-No, not if they were in debt.
11,204. So that if a man has to refund money to you out of what he
gets before the shipping master, that will, in the general case, be in
payment of goods which he has got?-Yes, generally.
11,205. It must be so, because you would not advance him money
if he was in your debt?-No; but the men generally are not in our
debt. When they are in debt, it is the exception, especially in the
whaling trade.
11,206. Then if a man is in your debt, and has to refund you
money which he receives before the shipping master, that must be
for goods?-Yes, for goods alone, if he is in debt; but we don't
like him to be in debt. If he be in debt, it must be for goods. We
would not care about allowing a man to get into debt for cash,
although it may sometimes be the case, because Mr. Leask is very
accommodating in the way of giving advances.
11,207. But the answer you give is, that about one-fourth of the
sums which have been received by the men before the shipping
master is repaid to you by them in settling their accounts for
goods?-I said that I thought about one-fourth represented the
goods sold; but, in many cases the men have got advances in
money to account over and above the goods they have bought; so
that the money paid over to the agent after the settlement before
the shipping master, will be more than one-fourth. I should say
that it would be one-third, and that would cover the sums of
money paid to account from the date of landing to the date of
settlement. It is quite a common thing for the men to get money
as soon as they land, and before settlement; and that of course,
increases the account against the men, which they have to pay
after receiving their money before the shipping master.
11,208. Still you don't give that as an exact statement but merely
as a guess?-It is merely an approximation, as nearly as I can
guess it to be and I have a very good idea.
11,209. You say the men always go down of their own accord to
pay the money, because they are honest men?-Yes, invariably.
They don't require to be asked to do so.
11,210. Has it not been the case that at certain times within the last
3 or 4 years, and since the regulations of 1868 were enacted by the
Board of Trade, you and your clerks have endeavoured to settle
with the men before leaving the Custom House?-I think in the
first year that was done. We simply paid them over the balance
which they had to receive, after deducting their accounts. Perhaps
it was partly done in the second year; but since then the shipping
master has been more rigid, and we have had to pay the whole.
11,211. Did the shipping master interfere about that?-He always
interfered, and he would not allow any reckoning in the Shipping
Office at all
11,212. Since then the men have invariably come down to your
office and settled with you immediately after they had received
their money in the Shipping Office?-Yes, on the same day, and
without any exception, unless in the one case I mentioned, and that
man came on the same day also after some reflection.
[Page 275]
11,213. You still keep your ledger accounts in the same form as if
there were no such payment of cash in the Shipping Office?-Yes,
we adhere to the same form that we used before.
11,214. So that your books do not show, without calculation, what
amount of cash was transferred before the shipping master?-They
show the account exactly as it is, irrespective of the settlement
before the shipping master.
11,215. In that way, is it not the case that the transference of the
cash before the shipping master is merely form in order to comply
with the Act?-I don't think so; because, if a man chooses to keep
the money, he may do so. The account is kept merely to show the
man's earnings, and how these earnings have been disposed of. It
would be more simple, perhaps, to debit the men with the goods
they get, and then to credit the cash after the settlement; but the
form we use has always been adopted, and we still adhere to it. I
don't think it is an evasion of the Act at all.
11,216. The men are not all settled with on the same day?-No.
11,217. Perhaps you may settle with half a dozen at time?-Yes.
I remember of settling with nineteen on one day last year, but I
think that is the largest number; but we could have settled with
more if they had come forward.
11,218. Of course, if the men were all settled with as they land
from the ships, perhaps to the number of 40 at a time, it would be
more easy for them to go away without paying their debts?-Of
course it would, but it is no great trouble to them to come and pay
their debts.
11,219. But there would be great difficulty for you or your clerk in
looking after them on the way down from the Shipping Office to
the shop?-I don't think so. It is the work of a moment to take
their money from them, because we can see at a glance what is
due.
11,220. How far is Mr. Leask's office from the Shipping Office?-
It may be about a couple of hundred yards, but I could not say
exactly. Mr. Leask's office is in the town, and the Custom House
is in Fort Charlotte which is to the north of the town.
11,221. You say you settled with nineteen men in one day: did
these men all go up at one time before the superintendent?-All
that were there at the time went before the superintendent.
11,222. But the ordinary number with whom you settle on the
same day will be much less?-Yes; sometimes there may be
eight or ten, and sometimes only one.
11,223. So that if they really require looking after, there will not
be much difficulty in looking after them from the Custom House
to the office?-We never require to look after them at all; they
come of themselves.
11,224. But suppose the case that they did require it; it would not
be very difficult to look after them, when there are only one or
two, or even eight or ten?-We should not take the trouble to do
that. If they chose to swindle us, we should just apply to the
Small Debt Court. We would not be inclined to act the part of
sheriff-officer ourselves. Mr. Hamilton says in his Report,
'Almost every fisherman in the islands is in debt to some
shopkeeper, and not only is the head of the family in debt, but
frequently his wife also, and other members of his family, down
to children of 12 or 14 years of age, for whom the shopkeeper
opens separate accounts in his books'-I don't think that is the
case. Some of them may perhaps have accounts, but I don't think
every is indebted to some shopkeeper.
11,225. Still that is a common thing?-Quite a common thing.
11,226. Does it occur in your books as well as in those of other
firms, that separate accounts are opened for the wife and for
the children?-Never for the wife; but, of course, an account is
opened for the children when we are employing them.
11,227. Have you any transactions in hosiery?-We have
transactions in barter for what Mr. Walker calls the hosiery
improper or incidental. We do a great deal in that way in the
coarser sort of work stockings, frocks, and so on. We barter
goods for them, or rather I should say we take them instead of
money.
11,228. You don't keep, accounts with regard to these
transactions?-No.
11,229. Every transaction is separate and distinct?-Yes, it is
simple barter. The people come with their goods instead of
money, and we give them, goods in exchange for them.
11,230. A married woman may come with her knitting and sell it
in that way for goods?-Yes.
11,231. But you don't keep an account with her?-No; we don't
keep separate accounts with a man and his wife.
11,232. If she gives the hosiery in that way, and does not want any
goods, may it be put down to the husband's account?-We don't
care about taking hosiery at all. We simply take the hosiery
instead of money, because the people come wanting to buy goods,
and very often they have nothing to give for them except their
hosiery. We frequently take the hosiery from them at a great
disadvantage.
11,233. Do you frequently open accounts with the children of a
family when they are in your employment?-I should not call
them children, but grown-up young people-boys of from 12 years
of age and upwards, who are employed in the fish-curing.
11,234. Do you employ many boys in your establishment at
Lerwick?-Yes. I now produce a list of all the people employed
by Mr. Leask in that way. There are about 60 of them altogether,
including persons of 12 to upwards of 50.
11,235. For how many months in the year are these persons
employed?-I should say that on an average taking one thing
with another, curing the fish and turning them over, they are
employed for about five months in the year, from May to
December; but they are only employed at intervals, not regularly.
They are employed regularly for part of May and for June, July,
August, and September, and sometimes part of October. After
that we have to employ them occasionally in turning the fish.
11,236. When you employ one of these persons at the beginning of
the year, is it the ordinary practice to open an account in his name
in the ledger?-We don't care about opening accounts with them
at all. We prefer to settle with them every Saturday.
11,237. What is the nature of the engagement with them? Is it for
weekly wages, or for a fee?-It is for weekly wages. We pay them
from 7d. a day upwards; 1s. a day is the regular wage for a woman
working among the fish, or for a strong boy.
11,238. In your establishment in Lerwick, is any payment made by
way of beach fees?-No; we pay all by daily or weekly wages, and
Saturday evening is the pay.
11,239. Do all these parties take payment in cash every
Saturday?-We prefer to pay them in cash; but, of course, if
they have taken supplies or provisions during the week we must
be paid for them. Some of them do take supplies, because they
could not live without them.
11,240. When they take supplies in that way, are their names
entered each week in the day-book?-Not in the day-book, but
in a book which we keep for the purpose, what we call our
work-book.
11,241. In what way is it kept?-We simply charge them with
what provisions they get.
11,242. Is there a ledger account in that work-book for each
person?-Yes.
11,243. In it the provisions which they get are entered, and I
suppose also soft goods if they get any?-They very seldom take
soft goods; it is only provisions. These are entered in the book as
they are got, and the account is settled on the Saturday evening,
except in one or two extravagant cases where the people are in
debt. In that case, we simply put their work to their credit, and
don't balance at all until the end of the season.
[Page 276]
11,244. If you don't make a balance until the end of the season,
may you not have some difficulty in restricting their supplies
within proper limits?-Of course, we can always tell how they
stand, because we are keeping a check upon their accounts, but
sometimes we find it pretty hard to keep such people in check.
We far rather prefer paying cash on the Saturday evening than
having accounts.
11,245. But you don't always do that?-No, we cannot do it
because the people cannot live without supplies as a general
rule; perhaps there may be some exceptions.
11,246. But in the majority of cases you say the people have
accounts?-Yes.
11,247. In the list you have given in, there are the names of about
eighty people: are these all the people employed in your curing
establishments?-No; there are a good many employed
incidentally besides these. The names I have given are only
those of the people are employed most regularly.
11,248. How are these people paid who are employed
incidentally?-We never employ any one to work for goods.
The understanding is that they are to be paid in money; and
they are paid in money, unless they have supplied themselves
with articles from the shop, for which, of course, we must be paid.
11,249. In what way are the engagements with these parties
made?-When they ask for employment we tell them to go to the
superintendent, and if he requires them he takes them and fixes
their wages. He very likely tries them for a day, or perhaps for a
week, to see how they are to get on, and then he tells them what
their wages are to be.
11,250. In what way is the understanding expressed to them that
they are to be paid in cash at the end of each week?-They know
very well they will get their wages in cash, unless they take stuff
from the shop before the end of the week. It is cash that is always
the understanding. We don't wish them to take goods at all, and
we prefer that they should not take any.
11,251. Do they ever get cash in the course of the week?-Very
often.
11,252. To what extent?-Of course their wages are not a great
deal, and it cannot be to a great extent. They sometimes get 1s.
perhaps during the week; sometimes more and sometimes less.
11,253. But they always get goods when they want them so long
as they are in your employ?-Not always. In one or two cases we
have had to refuse goods.
11,254. Is not that really a payment of their wages in goods if they
choose to take them all in goods?-I don't think so, because we
don't wish them to take all in goods.
11,255. But, in fact, you don't pay them the money?-In such a
case we don't pay them the money.
11,256. If there is any money left to receive at the end of the week,
how do you pay it?-If they choose to go to the shop and take
goods, we must pay ourselves for these goods. They cannot expect
to get both goods and money too; but what we pay is money, and if
they choose to take goods, that is their own fault.
11,257. But in fact, they are not paid in money?-I think that, in
fact, they are paid in money, because they may get the money from
the office and take it back again to the shop, as they do in some
cases.
11,258. Do they sometimes get the money at the office?-Yes, and
sometimes they pay it back into the shop; but, of course we deduct
the amount of the accounts from what they have to receive.
11,259. I suppose it is very seldom that they get the money in the
office and pay it back to the shop?-That is done in a good many
cases.
11,260. Why do they do that if they have an account?-Because
if they have a balance to get it is paid to them in money, and very
likely what money they get is spent by them in the shop.
11,261. Do you mean that when they are settled with the end of the
week they get the balance they have receive in money and spend it
in the shop?-Yes, they very often, do that. If they require to
spend it at all, they very likely spend it where they know they can
get the best value.
11,262. Of the eighty people mentioned in the list you have handed
in, how many may there be under fifteen years of age?-There are
very few under fifteen; think only two or three.
11,263. Are all the rest of the males under eighteen or twenty?-
Not all. The carpenters, of course, are married men and have
families; but most of the people in the list are women; we have
very few boys.
11,264. Have the carpenters, the sailmakers and riggers all credit
accounts with you?-Yes.
11,265. Out of the fish-curers, nineteen appear to be males?-Yes,
men and boys. I think there are four men, and the others are all
grown-up lads, except two or three young boys.
11,266. And the women may be of all ages?-Yes. With regard to
the weekly settlement with them, what I said had reference to
those living in the town; but we have about twenty living in
Whiteness, eight or ten miles distant, and these are only paid
monthly.
11,267. Where do they get their supplies?-They live with their
own families, and they don't require to buy provisions like people
living in town; but if they need anything they come to us for it.
11,268. I understand Mr. Leask is extensively engaged in the Faroe
fishing?-Yes; he owned eight fishing vessels that went to Faroe
last year. He did not have so many in previous years.
11,269. Has he an interest in any others as a partner of any
company?-He has no interest in any others, but he acted as
agent for other two.
11,270. What is the nature of the engagement that is made with the
fishermen who go to Faroe?-The Faroe fishing is a joint
speculation between the owner of the vessel and the crew. The
owner supplies the ship, thoroughly equipped for the voyage, and
furnishes sufficient salt to cure the fish, with all other necessary
materials; and he also supplies the crew, with one pound of bread
per day.
11,271. Does he supply all the lines required?-That is a different
affair. What I have mentioned is his portion of the supplies-the
ship and one pound of bread per man per day, and the salt; but the
salt is deducted from the proceeds of the fishing as part of the
expenses of curing. The owner also supplies the men with what
advances they require in the way of lines, hooks, clothes, and
stores.
11,272. These, however, are not supplied by the owner, but merely
advanced by him?-Yes. All that the owner supplies is the ship,
equipped for sea and biscuit at the rate of one pound per man per
day. The men supply themselves with small stores, such as tea,
coffee, butcher-meat, and anything they require. They also furnish
lines and hooks, and what clothing they require. The owner puts
the salt on board; generally about 20 tons, and sometimes as high
as 30 tons, according to the size of the vessel.
11,273. What proportion does the salt put on board bear to the
total capacity of the vessel?-One ton of salt is expected to cure
one ton of fish.
11,274. Do you not put on board a larger supply of salt in order to
allow for waste?-We generally put as much salt as the vessel can
stow, after being filled up with water-casks, oil-casks, bread,
ballast, and so on.
11,275. What are the oil-casks for?-To preserve the livers of the
fish. They are put into these casks, and made into oil after the
vessel has returned.
11,276. Are the lines, and hooks, and small stores, which are
supplied by the men, generally taken from the merchant as
outfitter?-Yes.
11,277. And they are charged against the men in their accounts?-
Yes.
11,278. At the end of the season, when the men come to settle,
how is the arrangement with them carried out?-The men, of
course, get all the money due to them.
11,279. What number of men may there be on board one of these
smacks?-With one vessel we have had crew of 18, and with
another we have had a crew of 11. The crews vary between
these numbers; and of [Page 277] these men, perhaps two-thirds
are what are called full-shares-men; perhaps one-sixth will be
half-shares-men, and the other sixth quarter-shares-men. I now
show the account of the 'Anaconda' for last year.
11,280. I see that the vessel's proportion of the fish was one half:
that goes to the owner?-Yes.
11,281. How many men were in the crew?-Sixteen.
11,282. Of these, 13 had full shares and were called
shares-men?-Yes.
11,283. John Isbister had a three-quarter share?-Yes. He would
perhaps be an ordinary seaman, not an able seamen. The able
seamen have full shares, and the others have less, according to
their quality.
11,284. I see that three men had three-quarter shares, while one
had as low as a half?-Yes; in some cases they have only been on
one voyage. The smacks generally make two voyages, and
sometimes three. Perhaps after the first voyage, a boy or a man
may be ill, and has to leave, and his proportion of the fish is
ascertained at the time when he leaves.
11,285. Are the hooks, and lines, and outfit, supplied to the men,
deducted from their own account, or from the account of the
crew?-They are deducted in each man's own private account;
each man has his own account, separate from the account of the
crew. There is one account kept for what has been got on behalf
of the company, and then everything else is put into the account
for the men.
11,286. There is a statement made out for each ship annually,
showing the gross fish and oil, and also the charge, consisting of
various things?-Yes.
11,287. But the gross fish and oil, as entered here [showing], must
appear somewhere else in detail?-We have another book in
which we put the amount of the weight. The skipper knows the
number of the fish, but he cannot tell their weight until they are
dried. When they are cured, the amount of the fish is entered in
the book.
11,288. And the estimate made of each man's share is made after
weighing the dry fish?-Yes; or after selling the dry fish. The fish
are weighed in the store, and then sold, perhaps in October or
November; and as soon as the price is ascertained, the account is
made up.
11,289. In the case of the 'Caroline' in 1870, the statement shows
£481, 0s. 3d. as the total proceeds of the sale of her fish?-Yes.
11,290. The first thing you do after having ascertained the total
proceeds of the sale of the fish is to deduct from that the
charges?-Yes.
11,291. You charge these as curing 281/6 tons at 50s. per ton, dry
fish, £70, 8s. 4d.?-Yes; that includes the salt.
11,292. 'Removing to Lerwick, 5s.-£7, 0s. 10d.?'-Yes; the fish
were at Whiteness and had to be brought here.
11,293. 'Master's fee, 6s. 3d. per ton?'-Yes. I should explain
that the masters generally have 10s. per ton, and the mates 2s. 6d.;
but in this case the master and the mate agreed to go equal, and
divide the extras together, so that instead of 10s. and 2s. 6d., they
had 6s. 3d. each.
11,294. That was £8, 16s. 11/2d. to each?-Yes.
11,295. The second mate's extra of 1s. 6d. came to £2, 2s. 3d., and
then the score money is charged at £24, 19s. 6d.: what is that?-
The men have 6d. for every score of fish they catch, as an
encouragement to them to do their utmost. That sum is taken off
the gross, and is divided among the men according to the number
of scores each has taken.
11,296. The next entry is, 'Bait at Shetland £6, and Faroe £5, 2s.
8d.?'-Yes; the master employs people to get bait for him here
and at Faroe.
11,297. He does so at the expense of the whole partnership?-Yes.
11,298. These charges being deducted; there remains £347, 14s.
7d., the vessel's proportion of which is £173, 17s. 4d., and the rest
is divided among the crew according to their different shares?-
Yes.
11,299. Is the charge of 50s. per ton for curing, a uniform
charge?-In some years it is higher. It has cost us as much as
55s., but 50s. is the uniform rate.
11,300. Is that charge according to an agreement made at the
beginning of the season with the men?-The agreement at the
commencement of the season is, that all necessary expenses shall
be deducted.
11,301. Then, if the merchant finds that the expense curing is
greater than 50s., is he entitled to increase that charge in the final
account with the men?-Yes. The men are only entitled to one
half of the net proceeds of the speculation.
11,302. Are your agreements with the men, at the commencement
of the season, in writing or in printing?-They are in writing,
never in printing.
11,303. But you do enter into a written agreement which each
man signs?-Sometimes, and sometimes not. Sometimes the
agreement does not bind them at all. We can get no damages from
them if they choose to break through it; it is simply a moral
agreement, not a legal one at all.
11,304. What is the use of having an agreement if it is not
binding?-Just to show their proportion of the speculation, and f
or the sake of making up the half-yearly returns for the Board of
Trade.
11,305. Have you a regular form of agreement?-I cannot say that
it is uniform; it has to be altered in some years.
11,306. Do you write out one annually for each smack?-No; it is
all one agreement, which is applicable to the whole of them; there
is no difference whatever. I shall send one of these agreements.
<Adjourned>.
SCALLOWAY; TUESDAY, JANUARY 23, 1872
GILBERT TULLOCH, examined.
11,307. Are you the shopkeeper at Scalloway for Messrs. Hay &
Co.?-I am.
11,308. They have a curing establishment here, and buy a quantity
of fish?-Yes.
11,309. They also have a shop in which goods of all descriptions
are sold?-Yes, all that are generally sold to fishermen.
11,310. Have you the entire management of their business here?-
Yes.
11,311. You take delivery of the fish from the men, and enter the
quantities received in the fishing book?-I settle with the men for
the fish as I receive them, and I charge the amount against my
employers.
11,312. You are now speaking of the winter fishing?-Yes.
11,313. In that fishing each transaction is separate and distinct?-
Yes. The men are paid over the counter as they deliver the fish,
for all that we purchase in Scalloway. They don't go into any
account at all. Where the fish are delivered at other places, they
are settled for at Lerwick.
11,314. Then with the regular summer fishing you have nothing to
do?-No; Messrs. Hay have curers at the islands for that.
[Page 278]
11,315. They have factors at Burra and other places who receive
the fish, and the settlement for them takes place at Lerwick?-
Yes.
11,316. Your duties consist in managing the business the shop, and
selling the goods there, and in purchasing fish or oil which the
men voluntarily bring to you?-Yes.
11,317. You have nothing to do with the men who are engaged to
fish in the home fishing?-Nothing.
11,318. When you take delivery of a quantity of fish from the men,
is no part of that entered in your books?-If the men have taken up
advances before, then these enter the books; and that is done
occasionally.
11,319. But when it does enter your books, it is entered as a
separate transaction at the time in the fisherman's account in the
ledger?-Yes.
11,320. That is to say, you have a ledger for the shop transactions
in which each man has an account?-Yes; and if he wishes any
part of his fish to go to his account, to help in clearing it off, I
enter it there.
11,321. But when you put it to his account, the quantity of fish
delivered at the particular time is stated, with the price, and the
sum is put into the money column?-Yes.
11,322. Have you many transactions of that kind with the men at
Burra?-Yes; principally in winter.
11,323. In spring and summer do they sometimes come to you
with fish?-They deliver them at the stations, and they are settled
for at Lerwick, with Messrs. Hay.
11,324. But do they sometimes endeavour to carry out transaction
with you for ready money or for goods?-Occasionally; when they
require it, they will come to us with a few fish, to get groceries or
any things they want. They are not prohibited from doing that if
they wish it.
11,325. Messrs. Hay do not forbid them, when they are engaged
for the season, to come to you for any supplies they may want, and
to give their fish in exchange?-That is not forbidden, so far as I
am aware.
11,326. And in these transactions with fishermen, from whatever
place they come, is the payment generally made in goods or in
money?-Part in both. They get what goods they want, and their
balance is paid in cash. I cannot say that more is paid in goods or
in cash.
11,327. Is not the great bulk of the fish paid for by out-takes?-
Generally.
11,328. About how many men are entered in your ledger with
whom you deal in that way?-I could not say exactly. They come
from different places, and could not state the exact number.
11,329. They are not merely the men who are employed by
Messrs. Hay for the summer fishing, but many others besides?-
Yes.
11,330. Will you have 100 of these accounts in your ledger?-I
could not say exactly.
11,331. Is there it separate ledger kept for the Burra men?-Yes.
11,332. Do they keep all their accounts here?-They keep
accounts with me for all their dealings here, but they deal both
here and in Lerwick.
11,333. In what season of the year do you make settlement with
the men who have accounts in the way you have described?-The
Burra men all settle at Lerwick. They only get their advances from
me, and they settle at the end of the year with my employers.
11,334. Is a note of their advances handed in to Lerwick?-Yes.
11,335. Do you settle here with others than Burra men who deal
with you?-No; they are all settled with at Lerwick. The whole of
the accounts are settled there, unless any man wishes to pay any
provisions he has had himself. He has it in his option to pay these
things to me if he likes; but that is only done in very rare cases.
11,336. Do you sometimes pay money for fish here?-Sometimes.
11,337. In what cases does that occur?-In the case of it neutral
man who is not connected with the Lerwick business.
11,338. Then it is only the men who are in the regular employment
of Messrs. Hay who settle at Lerwick?-Yes.
11,339. When you have a customer who fishes independently, or
for another firm, and who runs an account in your book, he settles
with you here?-Yes. He keeps an account with me, and I settle
with him.
11,340. At what season of the year is that done?-It is generally at
the end of the year, at the usual settling time in Shetland.
11,341. How many men of that description do you suppose there
may be in your books,-men who either sell their own fish all the
year round, or sell their fish to you cured?-There are very few of
them.
11,342. Most of your customers are in the regular employment of
Hay & Co.?-Yes.
11,343. And most of them, I suppose, including the Burra men,
are bound by agreement for the year to deliver their fish to that
firm?-They are not bound by agreement, so far as I know.
11,344. But they are engaged for the summer to fish for the firm,
in the boats of Messrs. Hay?-They are.
11,345. The bulk of the accounts kept in your shop will be with
such men?-Yes.
11,346. You were not asked to bring your books?-No.
11,347. Can you give me any idea of the amount of cash you pay
to these few men with whom you settle here?-I could not give an
exact account of it. I have bought about £100 worth of fish, ling
and cod, since May last up to this date.
11,348. Are you the largest purchaser of fish in that way in
Scalloway?-I could not say; there are other fish-buyers here.
11,349. There are other parties who buy fish in the same way, and
some other parties who employ boats of their own for the summer
fishing?-There are a few, but not many.
11,350. Mr. Nicholson has some?-Yes.
11,351. And Mr. Tait has one?-I suppose he has but he does not
do much in that way.
11,352. Is the amount you have stated the ordinary amount which
you purchase during the same period each year?-It is sometimes
more and sometimes less. It just depends on the success of the
fishing.
11,353. How much of that would be purchased in the summer and
autumn?-Not much in the summer. The greater part will be
purchased in winter.
11,354. In summer the men are delivering their fish at Burra, so
that less fish are brought to you at that time?-Yes.
11,355. Are your supplies of goods got from Lerwick from Messrs.
Hay?-Some come from Lerwick, and some come direct from the
south.
11,356. Are they invoiced to you at wholesale price, or at the price
at which you are expected to sell them?-They are invoiced at the
wholesale price and I fix the retail price myself.
11,357 What price do you pay for fish to the neutral man who
brings them to you in that way?-It is not always the same;
sometimes it is more and sometimes less.
11,358. What has been the price this season?-It depends upon the
size of the fish we get. For ling and large cod I paid 6s. a cwt up to
the commencement of this year, and since then I have paid 7s.
11,359. Do you generally pay that in money?-No; part in goods,
and part in money.
11,360. Do your books show in what proportion the payments
consist of money, and in what proportion of goods?-We keep no
account of what is paid directly over the counter. I charge my
employers with the amount of fish which I purchase from these
men, and settle with the men at once as I get them.
11,361. Are the fish brought to the counter?-No, they are
weighed in the store. There are people there for that purpose.
11,362. When you are weighing them and taking delivery of them,
do you ask the man what he wants?-Yes. He gets whatever
goods he wants.
11,363. Then when you have taken delivery you go with him to the
shop, and give him either goods or money?-Yes; we give him the
goods, and then the balance in cash.
[Page 279]
11,364. If it is not convenient for you to go yourself, suppose you
have a shopman who will act in the shop in your stead?-We have
a man for weighing, the fish, and he comes up with the account of
the fish he has got, and then we settle with the men according to
the weight which he gives in to us.
11,365. Does the man who takes in the fish enter their weight in
any book at the time?-No; he marks it down upon a board, or
anything, and comes up to the shop as soon as he has weighed for
a boat's crew, and gives in the weight. We enter that in our book,
and pay the price to the men.
11,366. Does the man who weighs the fish always come up to the
shop?-Yes.
11,367. He does not send a note of the weight he always comes
himself?-No, he always comes himself.
11,368. Do you ever pay the price altogether in cash-Sometimes;
if the men want no goods we pay it in cash.
11,369. Is that a usual thing?-It is not usual; but sometimes it is
the case.
11,370. Is there any particular reason for paying it all in cash when
that is done?-If the party wants no goods, then he gets the cash.
11,371. Or if he wants the cash for any particular purpose?-Yes.
11,372. I suppose he will generally tell you if he wants the cash for
any particular reason?-Sometimes he does.
11,373. And you make no objection to giving it to him?-No, not
if he wants it.
11,374. Do you give him the same price in cash as in goods?-
Quite the same; it makes no difference; we have a fixed price.
11,375. Is it entirely in the choice of the men whether they take
goods or cash?-Yes.
11,376. But is it not part of the system that the payment is for
the most part taken in goods?-That depends upon the parties
themselves.
11,377. Do you mean to say, that if the fishermen were all to
combine and ask for their payment in cash, they would get it, or
would that necessitate any change in your system of carrying on
business?-I suppose they would get it; but we might not have
enough cash to pay out such large sums as that. We are not near
any bank, and we might not have sufficient cash in hand for all
that we required, if the payment was wholly in cash.
11,378. Would you find it inconvenient to pay for these fish
altogether in cash?-Yes, unless my employers were to give
me sufficient cash to meet their demands.
11,379. Your arrangements are made upon the footing, I suppose,
that the bulk of the payments are to be taken in goods?-That is
understood, although there is no arrangement made about it.
11,380. There is no arrangement made with the men, but it is
understood that a great proportion of the transactions are to be
settled for in goods?-If the men get as good articles from us as
they can get from any other party, I don't see why they should not
take payments in that way.
11,381. It might very well happen, I suppose, that even if you did
pay in cash, the man would take his cash and spend it at your
shop?-Yes; and sometimes that is done.
11,382. But, in point of fact, your business arrangements are made
upon the footing that the great amount of the fish sales are to be
paid for in goods?-There is no arrangement at all.
11,383. But your own business arrangements are made on that
footing? You don't keep a sufficient supply of cash to meet the
requirements of a ready-money trade?-No, that has not been the
practice.
11,384. Then is it not an exceptional case, and a mere favour to
the fisherman, to pay him in money?-It is in his own option to
take either goods or money. If he wants the goods he gets them,
and if not we pay him in cash.
11,385. But is it not the case that a man is not paid in cash unless
he expressly asks for it?-He is not paid in cash unless he wishes
it. He gets whatever goods he requires, and the balance is paid
over to him in cash.
11,386. The first thing settled between you, after fixing the price,
is what goods the man is to take?-Yes.
11,387. And after that, if there is any balance over, it is paid to
him in cash?-Yes.
11,388. But, as a rule, he takes out his goods first?-Yes.
11,389. Do you suppose that three-fourths of the value of the fish
sold are paid for in goods?-I could hardly say. We never keep
any account of that.
11,390. What is the usual quantity of fish brought to you at one
time in winter from one boat?-It varies very much.
11,391. Will it be two or three cwts.?-Sometimes more, and
sometimes less.
11,392. Would five cwt. be a good catch for it day in winter?-
Yes, it would be a good catch.
11,393. Are there many ling caught in winter?-Not many. There
are very few tusk caught then. They are chiefly cod, and some
ling. There are three classes of cod. There is a large class, and a
small class, and a middle size, and the price is different. The price
for small cod is now 5s. per cwt., but the large cod that can be sent
to Spain are always paid for higher. The price for them is 7s. now.
11,394. Suppose a man were bringing five cwt. of cod to you, he
would get, I suppose, about 30s. for it, if it were equally composed
of large and small cod?-Yes. That would be divided among the
men in the boat,-say three or four men.
11,395. That would be about 7s. 6d. each?-Yes, supposing the
price to be at the rate you have mentioned.
11,396. Would it be usual for the man to get the whole of that 7s.
6d. in goods?-That would depend upon himself. Perhaps he
might require two-thirds of it in goods, and the other third in cash.
11,397. Would 2s. 6d. be about the largest sum would get in
money upon such a catch of fish?-It might be more or less.
11,398. But he would sometimes get it all in goods, I suppose?-
Sometimes.
11,399. Do you remember any case in which he got it all in
cash?-There have been several cases of that kind. I was looking
in the shop books before I came here, and I picked up some papers
in the shop showing how much cash they get. [The witness
handed in papers containing the following accounts:-
<Robert Goodlad>.
11s. 71/2d.
Tea, 1s. 4d.; sugar, 21/2d., £0 1 61/2
Loaf, 4d.; sugar, 11/2d. 0 0 51/2
Soap, 21/2d., sulphur, 11/2d., 0 0 4
Soda, 11/2d.; cotton, 1s. 6d. 0 1 71/2
Cotton, 0 0 3
Porter, 5d.; biscuit, 3d.; cash, 6s. 9d., 0 7 5
£0 11 71/2
<Thomas Goodlad>.
11s. 71/2d.
Tea, 1s. 4d.; sugar, 61/2d.; £0 1 101/2
Tobacco, 8d.; oatmeal, 1s. 3d., 0 1 11
Soap, 21/2d.; sund. 51/2d., 0 0 8
Cotton, 11d., 0 0 11
£0 5 41/2
Cash, 0 6 3
£0 11 71/2
<William Pottinger>.
8s. 3d.
Tobacco, £0 1 0
Tea, 0 0 8
Cash, 0 6 7
£0 8 3
[Page 280]
<Laurence Smith>.
8s. 3d.
Oatmeal, 1s. 101/2d.; tobacco, 6d. £0 2 41/2
Stamps. 2d.; paper, 21/2d., 0 0 41/2
Soap and sod, 4d.; sugar, 21/2d., 0 0 61/2
Shoe-brush, 6d, 0 0 6
Handkf., 10d.; loaf, 4d.; syrup, 3d., 0 1 5
Soda and thd., 11/2d. 0 0 11/2
Acct., 1s.; cash, 1s. 11d., 0 2 11
<P. Lesslie>.
17s. 5d.
Rum, 6d.; cash, 1s., £0 1 6
Do. 9d.; tea, 1s. 2d., 0 1 11
Tea, 1s. 2d.; sugar, 6d., 0 1 8
£0 5 1
Cash, . . 0 12 4
£0 17 5]
These are notes made at the time when the settlement was made
with the men.
11,400. Do you remember when these settlements took place?-
No. I merely found these papers in the shop, and brought them
here. It may have been about three or four weeks ago, or it may
have been longer.
11,401. Has there not been a much larger amount of cash paid in
these cases than is usual in such transactions?-It is larger than in
some cases.
11,402. And you might have found other slips or notes in which
the whole amount was taken out in goods?-I don't know about
that. But that is the way in which we settle, and the fish are
afterwards charged to my employers.
11,403. Is it not often the case that there is not more than 1s. paid
in cash on a transaction of 8s. or 10s.?-Sometimes that is the
case.
11,404. Is it not oftener under 1s. than over it?-I could hardly say
about that.
11,405. Is it not oftener under 1s. 6d. than over it?-I should say
that it is.
11,406. Can you say that, in half the cases that occur, there is a
cash balance paid at all?-No. I would not say that there was so
little cash paid as that.
11,407. But you could not say to the contrary?-I could not say
either the one way or the other.
11,408. In the case of a separate and distinct sale of fish, such as
we have been speaking of, the price is paid in full, and there are no
deductions of any kind to be made?-None.
11,409. The boats and the lines are the men's?-Yes, unless some
of them may have got credit for their boats and lines.
11,410. Do you hire out boats for the winter fishing?-No; the
men have boats of their own.
11,411. But they may have got the lines at your shop, and they
may be standing against them there?-Yes, either standing against
them, or they may have settled for them with Hay & Co.
11,412. In that case you may retain the price of the winter fish to
meet the price of the lines or boat?-Yes, if the men wish that to
be done.
11,413. Or if you have a heavy debt against the men, you may
retain the price of the fish whether the men choose or not?-That
is never done by me.
11,414. Has there never been an arrangement or understanding by
which a portion of the fish delivered to you in that way is retained
on account of the lines or boats supplied to the men?-No, not in
winter.
11,415. Have either you or Messrs. Hay & Co. any interest at all
in the boats used in the winter or spring fishing?-I have none. I
have only a share of one herring boat. I receive a salary from
Messrs. Hay.
11,416. Have Messrs. Hay any interest in the boats used in the
winter fishing?-No; the boats belong to the men, and they have
them on their own account.
11,417. Have you an interest in several of the boats engaged in the
summer fishing?-No. As I have said, I have only one share of a
herring boat.
11,418. You have no share in any of the smacks that go to the
Faroe fishing?-No.
11,419. Are you not part-owner of some boats employed in the
summer fishing?-No.
11,420. Were you ever so?-No. I have never had any share of
any boat except the herring boat that I have a share in now.
11,421. Have you the management of Messrs. Hay's curing
establishment here?-Yes.
11,422. There is a large curing establishment here, with
beaches?-Yes.
11,423. How many people are employed there in the fishing
season?-It depends on the success of the fishing in the summer,
and the amount of fish we get.
11,424. How many were employed last year?-I could not say
exactly. Perhaps about ten or a dozen were employed about the
beaches at Scalloway.
11,425. Had you the superintendence of the beaches at Burra?-
No; there were men appointed for that.
11,426. With regard to the ten or a dozen employed at Scalloway,
were those men, women and boys?-Yes.
11,427. Were they paid weekly wages?-Yes. They were paid
every Saturday, either by me or at the shop.
11,428. Were they paid in money every Saturday?-No, they had
to get supplies during the week; and at the end of the week any
balance they had was paid in cash.
11,429. Was there generally a balance due?-It was very rarely
that there was. They had generally to get supplies to the full
amount of their wages.
11,430. Is payment made to them in the shop at the counter?-
Yes. Their advances are entered against them in the book, and
then their wages are placed to their credit and if they have
anything to get it is given to them.
11,431. Is there a separate ledger account for each of these
parties?-Yes, every one has an account, and when he gets
advances these are put to that account.
11,432. Can you say that any money ever passes at any settlement
with these beach people?-Sometimes there has been a little, but
not a great deal.
11,433. Will their average wages be 8s. or 9s. a week?-Not so
much. In summer the women get 10d. a day, and in winter 1s.
We have a few people employed in winter, but not so many as in
summer.
11,434. Are you engaged in the hosiery business at all?-No.
11,435. Do you purchase any quantity of butter and eggs from the
people in the district?-Not a great quantity. There are no cattle
in the village to give butter, but I buy a small quantity from people
in the district.
11,436. Is that paid for in goods?-Yes.
11,437. Do the Burra people bring butter and eggs to you
sometimes?-Very little. They sometimes bring a few eggs in
summer, and they always get goods in return for them.
11,438. Do the Burra people bring all their eggs to you?-No; they
are at liberty to sell them to any person they choose.
11,439. When settling time comes, what have you to do with the
men who have accounts in your books?-I send in a note of each
man's account to Messrs. Hay, at Lerwick.
11,440. Has the man checked his account in any way before you
send it in?-If they choose, they can get their accounts read over
to them. Some of them have pass-books, while others have only
their accounts read over.
11,441. Do they all get them read over to there?-Generally they
do. If they have any doubt about their account, they get it read
over; but I have very few disputes of that sort with them.
11,442. Is it the general practice to read over the accounts to the
men?-If they wish it.
11,443. But do they generally wish it?-Some of them do, and
some do not.
11,444. I suppose the majority do not?-Yes.
11,445. Are they rather careless about these things?-Yes.
[Page 281]
11,446. Suppose you read over a man's account to him, and he
objects to any of the items, how could he get that corrected?-
Sometimes a man may forget, and he would come to recollect
afterwards; but it is very seldom that that occurs with us.
11,447. If he has not a pass-book, has he any means of checking
his account at all?-Yes; by his own memory.
11,448. But when you have an entry in your own book, and he says
it is wrong, do you correct that entry according to his memory?-
No; we would not do that.
11,449. You try to convince him that he is in error?-Yes, and we
generally succeed.
11,450. Do you always succeed?-I would say so but we have had
very few cases of that sort.
11,451. Don't you think it would be much better if the men would
all take pass-books?-Yes; it would prevent any doubt about these
matters.
11,452. But I suppose it would give you a good deal more
trouble?-It would.
11,453. Is there anything to hinder you from paying ready money
when you are settling the price of fish as they are delivered?-If
the law was that, we would have to do it the same as others.
11,454. But is there anything to prevent you from doing it,
although there is no law on the subject?-There is nothing to
prevent us.
11,455. Would it not facilitate your business a good deal?-Yes.
11,456. You could carry on your business with less trouble to
yourself ,-only the men might perhaps spend the money at
another shop, instead of yours?-Yes.
11,457. Is the price paid for winter fish, when they are bought by
you in small quantities, less than is usually paid for summer fish
#at settling-time?-No, it is the same price.
11,458. Have you the management of the oyster fishing here?-
There are very few of them caught. I have not the management of
that, but I sometimes buy a few.
11,459. Do you sometimes buy lobsters?-Not many.
11,460. Are they all paid for in goods in the same manner, and to
the same extent, that you have mentioned?-Yes, just in the same
way as the others.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, LAURENCE MONCRIEFF, examined.
11,461. You are a baker and provision merchant in Scalloway?-I
am.
11,462. You are not a fish-merchant at all?-No.
11,463. Do you purchase hosiery to some extent?-I purchase
fancy hosiery to a small extent,-principally veils and shawls,
and things of that kind.
11,464. Do you usually pay for it in goods from your shop?-Yes.
11,465. Do you pay for it to any extent in money?-No. I never
give money for hosiery.
11,466. Is it always understood that people selling hosiery at your
shop are to take goods in exchange?-That is always understood.
11,467. Are you often asked for money?-No. It is always the
understanding that they are to take goods but I have been asked
once or twice for money.
11,468. Do you employ any people to knit with your wool?-Yes.
11,469. Are they paid in the same way?-Yes.
11,470. Are they employed entirely in knitting, or do they
sometimes work at other things?-Some of them depend entirely,
or almost entirely, on knitting; but when they require money for
their rent or for any particular article which they cannot get for
knitting, then, I suppose they have to work at something else.
11,471. Or perhaps they sell their knitting to a shop where they can
get what they want although you do not deal in it?-Yes.
11,472. They may go to Lerwick and sell it for soft goods?-They
may; but I keep a small assortment of soft goods.
11,473. Therefore they can get most of the articles they want in
your shop?-Yes.
11,474. If they cannot get the articles they want are you aware
whether they have sometimes been obliged to sell the goods they
have got for hosiery, in order to procure what they want?-A
case or two of that kind has come before me. I remember one
occasion, when I gave a woman some provisions for some soap
or something, when she was in a difficulty for the provisions; but
that is the only case of the kind that I remember clearly about.
Perhaps there may have been more.
11,475. What was the nature of that case?-I suppose she had
bartered her knitting for the soap in some place. She was requiring
provisions, and could not get them, and she exchanged the soap to
me for provisions.
11,476. Was that long ago?-It is some time ago but I don't
remember the exact time.
11,477. Did that case strike you as being in any way peculiar or
extraordinary?-No. Very few of the hosiery dealers keep
provisions, so that at the time the woman had no other way of
getting them.
11,478. What price did you give the woman for the soap which she
sold to you?-I think I gave her as near my own selling price as I
could. It was a small quantity only that she offered to me and it
was not worth making any difference upon it. That is generally
what I do in cases of that kind which happen to come before me.
11,479. Do you generally give them as near as possible your own
selling price for the soap?-Yes.
11,480. Just enough to allow yourself a little commission for
your trouble?-No, I don't think I could have any commission
on the like of that; at least I don't make a practice of charging a
commission in cases of that kind. I don't like to do it if it can be
avoided, but in cases of great necessity I sometimes find it my duty
to do so.
11,481. You sometimes find it your duty to relieve people's
necessities in that way?-Yes, sometimes, if I can manage it.
11,482. But don't you give them a lower price than that which they
have nominally purchased the soap for?-I don't think I do that.
11,483. Do you not buy the soap so as to make some little profit
upon it when you re-sell it?-The amount of the transactions in
that way is so small that I can hardly say. I try to avoid doing it at
all; and unless in a case of extreme necessity, I would not do it. It
is merely in a case where it is required in order to save life that I
do anything of the kind.
11,484. How many women do you usually employ in knitting with
your own wool?-I have had very few employed for some time
back, perhaps only two or three.
11,485. Do they keep accounts with you for what they want?-
Very few of them. I just pay them at the time; but I have a few
accounts that I run with some of them.
11,486. Are these accounts both with women who knit with your
wool, and with women who knit with their own wool and sell their
goods to you?-It is principally with those who knit with my wool
that I have accounts.
11,487. What was the name of the person from whom you bought
the soap on the occasion you have mentioned?-I think it was
either Margaret or Catherine Irvine.
11,488. Was that a very exceptional case?-I should think so.
11,489. Have you not frequently bought from women the goods
which they had got in shops at Lerwick?-No, not frequently.
That is the only case I remember of distinctly. I remember
something being said about the women bringing goods for sale at
other times, but I have no distinct recollection about that. It would
hardly do for me to make a practice of that, because I have to live
and support my family by my profits.
[Page 282]
11,490. But if the women were disposed to sell the goods to you at
such a price as would enable you to derive a profit on your re-sale
of them, that would be quite legitimate and fair?-Yes; but they
could not do that.
11,491. Why?-Because it would cause them a considerable loss.
I suppose the goods are priced at an advance before they get them,
and they could not afford to sell them to me at a less price than
they had paid for them themselves.
11,492. You said you had heard of other cases being mentioned, in
which women had offered their goods for sale: what have you
heard about that?-I have heard some of my family speaking about
the women getting their goods exchanged for provisions, or
something of that kind.
11,493. Is your shop generally attended by yourself, or by some of
your family?-It is generally attended by mny brother-in-law; he is
not here.
11,494. Can you say that he has not bought goods in that way from
knitters?-I think not. I don't think he would do that without
letting me know about it.
11,495. Do you know of any person here who purchases goods in
that way from women who have got them for their hosiery?-
There may be such persons but I am not aware of any one who
makes a trade of it, or who could make a trade of it. There may be
some who do that in order to oblige a woman or to relieve her
necessities, but I don't think they could make a practice of it. I
have heard of Mrs. Tait doing it in that way.
11,496. Would you show me where you keep your accounts with
these women?-Yes. [Produces book.] It is only a small part of
that book which I use for that purpose. This [showing] is an
account of a woman who dresses for me. Besides what is entered
to her account, she is sometimes paid by goods which do not
appear in the book at all.
11,497. I see here an entry: 'To amount from line:' do you give
lines?-I sometimes give a line to her when I do not care about
entering it in the book. I should like better to pay her at once what
I was due to her, if I could possibly do so.
11,498. What was the purpose of giving the line?-Just as a
security.
11,499. She did not want the goods at the time, and you did not
want to open an account?-No.
11,500. You would rather that these women would take the goods
at once than have the trouble of keeping an account with them?-
Yes.
11,501. What was the form of the line you gave?-It was just a
credit note, bearing the name of the party and the amount for
which they had to get credit from me.
11,502. Is the amount of that note understood to be paid in goods
or in money?-It is never understood to be paid in money. I could
not give the same price in money as I could give in goods.
11,503. Does the line express whether it is to be paid in goods or
in money?-No.
11,504. Do you issue many of these lines?-Not many; very few
require them. They generally take out goods to the full amount at
once.
11,505. How did you happen to enter that line in your book?-The
woman was getting fully more work from me than she could take
out in goods at once, and she preferred to continue working for me
and to get things for her family as she required them.
11,506. I see that the bulk of the entries in these accounts are for
provisions?-Yes, and for such other goods as we keep-tea,
sugar, loaves, butter, meal, flour, soda and other things.
11,507. Where do you get your supplies of worsted?-Principally
from Edinburgh or Leith.
11,508. Do you buy any Shetland worsted?-No; I cannot get it to
buy.
11,509. Have you tried to get it and found it difficult?-Not often.
It was only last spring that I began the hosiery trade at all.
11,510. Do you import all your worsted direct from Edinburgh, or
do you get any of it through the Lerwick houses?-I get it all from
a wholesale house in Edinburgh.
11,511. What is the quality of the worsted you get from there?-It
is generally the finest quality, but not mohair. I don't deal in
mohair at all. We generally use two qualities for veils, and these
qualities are distinguished by numbers, but I don't remember the
numbers just now. I buy it by the pound, and I think it costs me
from 5s. to 8s. per pound.
11,512. Do you sell the worsted to knitters?-Yes, when I have an
extra supply of it.
11,513. Are you paid for it in hosiery articles or in cash?-In
either way; I give it for either when I do sell it. When they have a
quantity of hosiery to sell, I prefer them to take an assortment of
goods, because provisions are a thing that most people have very
little profit upon. If they take the whole price in meal or in
anything of that kind, I would not have much profit upon it.
11,514. You would rather have them to take some of the price in
soft goods?-Not in soft goods, but in an assortment of groceries.
11,515. When a woman brings her hosiery to you first fix the
price, and then, I suppose, you ask her what she wants?-Yes.
11,516. When you come down to a balance of 1d. or 2d, how do
you settle that?-If they want nothing else, I often give them the
balance in cash. It is the understanding that they are to take the
price for their hosiery in goods, but still I don't hesitate to give
them 1d. or 2d., or any small thing in money.
11,517. You may give them a penny, or a postage stamp, or a
package of sweeties, or anything of that sort?-Yes.
11,518. Have you any accounts with fishermen?-No; they
generally run their accounts at the places where they are
employed. I would not like to run the risk of supplying them.
I think those who are getting the benefit of their fishing ought to
run the risk of giving them what supplies they want. I deal with
a good many of them in ready money for bread and provisions;
not to a very large extent but just in a general way.
11,519. Do you find that they always have ready money with
which to pay you for provisions and bread?-Most of those who
deal with me have.
11,520. Do you think businesses such as yours would be improved
if the fishermen were paid in ready money for the fish they
take?-It is possible they might.
11,521. Don't you think you would have a better chance of
succeeding in business if the fishermen did not have such long
credits?-It is very likely.
11,522. They would have more ready money in their hands
throughout the year?-Some of them would.
11,523. At what season of the year have you the largest receipts in
your ready money business?-In summer and harvest, I think; but
I attribute that more to the weather than to anything else. The
country people cannot get to the place in all weathers; they have
often to come by sea, and then if they leave home at all it is
generally just as easy for them to get to Lerwick as to go to
Scalloway.
11,524. Still I don't see how that accounts for your ready money
business being larger in summer and harvest than at other periods
of the year?-The boats can come from the west side and from the
islands in summer more readily than they can in winter, when,
perhaps, they cannot get away for weeks. It is chiefly upon people
in the country that my business depends. The village of Scalloway
is small, and the business from it is also small, so that it is only
when the weather is suitable that my customers from the country
cannot in to deal with me.
11,525. Do you have a larger amount of business from your
immediate neighbours in the spring than at other seasons?-No,
I have not noticed that. The business is so mixed up that I can
hardly say.
11,526. You don't think the fishermen round about you come to
deal with you to a larger extent after settling time in spring than at
other periods of the year?-I am not aware of that.
[Page 283]
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CLEMENTINA GREIG, examined.
11,527. You live at Braehead, Scalloway, with your sister?-Yes.
11,528. Your mother died about two years ago a very old
woman?-Yes; she was 95.
11,529. Have you supported yourself for a long time by
knitting?-Yes; I began to knit thirty-three years ago, and
since then I have not earned a sixpence by anything else,
except my own family work. My mother also depended on
me.
11,530. What kind of knitting do you do?-Shawls and veils.
11,531. Have you ever got any money for your work?-I have sold
several shawls and veils to gentlemen who were travelling through
the country in July and August, and got money for them; but I
never got a penny in all my life from any of the merchants in
Lerwick. I was the first individual in Scalloway who commenced
to knit, and I have taught many of the people here.
11,532. Do you knit with your own wool, or with worsted that is
given out to you?-On several occasions, within the last three
years, I have bought some Scotch worsted; but before that I always
spun the wool myself, and sold my own goods. I never knitted a
shawl or a veil for a merchant in my life.
11,533. Did you think it better to knit with your own material?-I
think it paid a little better when we got a price for it, but it was
very seldom that a sufficient price was given. For shawls that I
used to get £1 for from gentlemen in the south, the merchants
never offered me more than 17s. or 18s., and that was paid in
goods.
11,534. Who did you knit most to?-To Mr. Robert Sinclair. I
scarcely ever sold a shawl to any other merchant than him.
11,535. Have you sometimes asked him for money?-Yes. Two
years ago, when my mother was dying, and my sister was brought
in with a broken limb, I took a shawl to Lerwick, in order to get a
doctor. I went to Mr. Sinclair with the shawl, and he asked what I
wanted. I said I was selling it in a case of necessity, and that I
wanted 18s., and he offered me 17s. I asked him, if he would give
me a little money if I sold it to him for 17s., but he said he would
not, and he rejected it. I sold the same shawl, when I came back,
to Mr. Garriock, Reawick, and I got £1 for it in money from him.
11,536. Does Mr. Garriock buy shawls for sale?-No. He told me
he had got an order from some ladies for such work; and generally
when he gets an order he buys one or two of these things from me,
and sends them off to his friends, but he is not a merchant.
11,537. The shawl which you sold for £1 would be a large fine
shawl?-Yes. I have got as high as 25s. in money for them.
11,538. How long does it take you to make such a shawl?-When
I spin the wool myself it takes me a month, but with clean worsted
I will make it in about three weeks.
11,539. How many cuts does it take to make a shawl of that
sort?-It takes 32 cuts of Shetland worsted to make a shawl of
about 22 or 23 scores, 21/2 yards square.
11,540. Where do you buy the wool that you spin?-I often buy it
in the shops in Lerwick when they have it to sell.
11,541. Do some of the merchants in Lerwick sell the wool?-
Yes, when it comes in. The poor people who bring it from the
country sell it for meal and goods, and the merchants send it out
again. I have bought it from Mr. George Laurenson for the last six
or seven years. He gets the best of it from Unst. His shop is in
Lerwick, beside Mr. Sinclair's.
11,542. Do you buy that wool by the lb.?-Yes; we pay 1s. 6d. for
the finest wool, and half pound of that makes a shawl. It will
produce 32 or 33 cuts, and make such a shawl as I sold for £1. I
last bought wool from Mr. Laurenson in July of last year. I got 11/2
lbs. at that time at 1s. 6d. a lb. When I am busy I buy some Scotch
worsted and knit it too.
11,543. Is the Scotch worsted what is called Pyrenees wool?-Yes.
11,544. Where do you buy it?-From Mr. Sinclair but when we
sell him a shawl he will not give us worsted back upon the shawl.
11,545. Not even Scotch worsted?-No. I must pay the money for
worsted, whether it is Scotch or Shetland. The Scotch worsted
sells by the oz., at 10d. or 1s., according to the fineness of thread.
It takes 6 oz. of that worsted to make a shawl for which I will get
£1.
11,546. Have you bought any Shetland worsted?-I have always
bought the wool and spun it myself.
11,547. How long will the spinning of half-a-pound take?-It will
take me a week to spin it sitting very close at it and sleeping very
little.
11,548. Would it be cheaper to buy the Scotch worsted?-Yes;
but articles made of it do not sell so well. The Shetland worsted
is preferred, as being much better.
11,549. Do you think you will have a larger profit on a shawl, the
wool for which you have been a week in spinning, and in knitting
which you have been employed another four weeks, than on a
shawl which you make of Scotch worsted?-Yes.
11,550. When you buy the Scotch worsted and make a shawl of it,
how long will it take you to knit it?-I will make it in less than
three weeks.
11,551. What will be the difference in the price which you get for
the shawl at the end of that time?-When I have sold a shawl
made of Scotch worsted to gentleman or lady who happened to be
in the country in July or August I have got as much for it as for one
made of Shetland worsted, because the one is as fine as the other,
but they prefer the Shetland thread to the Scotch thread. The
merchants in Lerwick will not buy a Scotch shawl from me. They
put out worsted of that kind to be knitted for themselves, but they
will not buy such things from us. They will only buy the real
Shetland work.
11,552. Have you ever done any knitting in silk?-No.
11,553. Is it as a favour that the merchants sell you worsted when
they do sell it?-No. They are quite willing to sell it if we have
money to pay for it.
11,554. Have you asked for worsted in return for your hosiery?-
Yes. I asked it from a Mr. Sinclair, and he would not give it. I
have asked that both from himself and from some of the men in
his shop, and they said it was not a customary thing, and they
could not give it.
11,555. Have you ever offered to take a lower price for your
knitting if you were paid in money?-Yes. In the case I have
mentioned, I offered to take a less price if they would give me 1s.
or 2s. in money; but they refused, and I took home my shawl, and
did not sell it to them.
11,556. In that case did you ask for the whole price in money?-
No; I only asked him if he would give me a little money upon it.
The price I asked for the shawl was 18s., and I offered to give it to
him for 17s. if he would give me some money.
11,557. Did he price the shawl at 20s.?-No; he priced it at 17s. I
priced it at £1 and I got that for it when I took it home.
11,558. Have you ever been obliged to exchange any of the goods
you got from the hosiery merchants?-I never exchanged anything
for provisions, because when parties came to the country in July
and August, I would often get two or three shawls sold to them for
money.
11,559. Do you know that people who knit have sometimes been
obliged to exchange soft goods for provisions?-I believe there are
some who have been under the necessity of doing that.
11,560. Do you know any people who make a practice of buying
goods from women in that way?-No, I don't know any one who
makes a practice of it.
[Page 284]
11,561. Are there not some people who go about the country
hawking goods, which they have bought from the women?-I
believe there are; but I do not know their names, because I have
never been in the habit of dealing with them.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, EUPHEMIA RUSSELL, examined.
11,562. You live with your mother at Blackness, Scalloway?-
Yes.
11,563. Your mother is an old-woman and bedridden?-Yes; she
is seventy-two.
11,564. Do you support yourself by knitting?-Yes, or by out-door
work when knitting cannot be sold for money.
11,565. Would you give your whole time to knitting if you could
get money for your work?-Yes.
11,566. How long are you obliged to go to out-door work in the
year? Two or three months every year?-Yes; if it was all put
together, it would be two or three months.
11,567. Do you just go to that when you want money?-Yes.
11,568. Is it in the fields or the fish that you work?-Sometimes in
the fields and sometimes at the fish.
11,569. For how long have you been in the habit of knitting?-For
about twenty-five years.
11,570. Have you often been paid in money for it?-Never, except
on an occasion when a stranger was passing, or when Mr. Garriock
would take my work. He has sold several shawls for me.
11,571. Did you hear what Clementina Greig said about the
quantity of worsted required for a shawl?-Yes; I agree with her
evidence about that.
11,572. Have you bought wool yourself?-Yes; I have bought
wool from Widow Nicholson, who lives near here, and also from
James Williamson, when he had a little to spare. I paid 1s. 6d. for
his wool, and 1s. 4d. for hers; but that was not used entirely for
shawls. I took the best of it for shawls, and the rest was used for
other purposes.
11,573. Did you spin that wool yourself?-Yes. When my mother
was in health she spun it; but I spin it for myself now.
11,574. Do you take as long to spin it as Clementina Greig said?-
Yes, quite as long.
11,575. Do you sometimes get a little money for your hosiery?-
Not from the merchants in Lerwick. I never ask for it there,
because it is not the custom to give it.
11,576. Do you keep an account with any of these merchants?-
No. I just sell my goods right off, and settle for them at once.
11,577. Have you ever sold them any hosiery made of Scotch
worsted?-No. I never made with that Scotch worsted; I always
made my own worsted.
11,578. Have you ever had occasion to exchange any of the goods
which you got from the merchants for your hosiery?-I have
exchanged tea for meal with the country people round about, but
nothing else. I took more tea from the merchant than I intended to
use myself, and I have given it in exchange for meal several times.
11,579. Do you generally take a quantity of tea from Mr.
Sinclair?-Yes. When Mr. Sinclair bought my goods, as he
always did when I offered them to him, he never refused to give
me anything in his shop that asked from him, except worsted. I
once asked worsted from him, and I did not get it.
11,580. But you got everything except worsted or money?-Yes.
11,581. Have you lately taken more tea than you required, and
exchanged it for meal?-I have not done it this year, because I
sold a shawl to Mr. Garriock, which supplied me with money in
the meantime, and paid my rent and some other little things
besides.
11,582. When you want money, do you generally get it in that
way?-When I want money, I usually give a shawl to Mr.
Garriock, who will sell it for me when he has the chance. If he
cannot get the shawl sold at the time when we need the money, we
go to out-door work; but Mr. Garriock is kind enough to let the
shawl lie until he can get it sold for us.
11,583. But one way in which you get money is by selling the tea
which you have got in exchange for your hosiery?-I have never
sold tea for money-only for meal.
11,584. But when you have no meal, and no money with which to
buy it, that is the way you take to get it?-Yes
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, MARY COUTTS, examined.
11,585. You and your sister have lived for a long time in
Scalloway with your father and aunt?-Yes.
11,586. Are they old people?-Yes.
11,587 Have you and your sister been their chief support by your
knitting?-Yes, and by other work as well.
11,588. What kind of knitting have you done?-Shawls and veils.
11,589. Do you knit with your own wool, or have you got it out
from the merchants?-The most of it belonged to the Lerwick
merchants. I knitted it and took it to them.
11,590. How were you paid for your work?-In tea and goods.
11,591. Did you ever get money?-No.
11,592. Did you ever ask for it?-Yes.
11,593. Did you never get 6d. at a time?-I have got 3d., but that
was the most. I once asked 1s. from Mr. Robert Linklater, to pay
for mending my boots; but it was refused. That was about eight
years ago.
11,594. And I suppose that did not encourage you to ask it
again?-It did not. We ceased to knit for him.
11,595. Did you ask for money from anybody else?-Yes.
11,596. Did you get a little?-Nothing except a mere trifle,
perhaps 11/2d. or 2d. from Mr. Sinclair.
11,597. Was that merely a balance that you had to get on your
knitting?-No.
11,598. Have you an account there?-Yes. There is an account in
his books.
11,599 All your knitting goes into that account and all your
out-takes go into it too?-Yes.
11,600. You are just paid in goods, with 1d. or 2d. in cash now and
then?-Yes.
11,601. How do you get your provisions, such as meal and
potatoes?-We give tea to the farmers, and get meal and potatoes
for it. We have sometimes to go to the west side, to Walls and
Sandness, for that. Our aunt Elizabeth Coutts, has done that for
us. She has not been to Walls and Sandness for the last two years,
but she went regularly before. It was only for our own house, not
for other people, that she took the tea there and got the meal and
potatoes in exchange.
11,602. During the last two years how have you got your meal and
provisions?-We have knitted for Mr. Moncrieff last year.
11,603. And therefore you did not need to barter your tea?-No.
11,604. Did you get the full price for your tea from the farmers?-
I suppose we did sometimes, but I could not say. They did not
weigh out the meat and potatoes which they gave in exchange;
they merely gave a little for the tea which my aunt gave them. I
have known her go as far as Papa Stour, twenty-four miles away,
to make these exchanges. That was where most of her friends
were.
11,605. Have you often had to barter your goods for less than they
were worth?-Sometimes, if there had been 21/2 yards of cotton
lying and a peck of meal came in, we would give it for the meal.
The cotton would be worth 6d. it yard, or 15d.; and the meal
would be [Page 285] worth 1s. I remember doing that about three
years ago; but we frequently sold the goods for less than they had
cost us in Lerwick.
11,606. Do you make fine shawls?-Yes.
11,607. How much do you get for knitting a shawl of 21/2 yards
square?-10s. 6d.; and I have got as high 6s. from Mr Moncrieff,
but the worsted was his own.
11,608. What was the cause of that difference between 10s. 6d.
and 16s.?-The finer the worsted is, the more we get for knitting
it.
11,609. How many cuts of Shetland worsted would it take to make
such a shawl?-About 34 or 35. The shawl I got 16s. for took
about 7 oz. of Scotch worsted.
11,610. How long would it take you to make it?-My sister and I
are not in very good health, and we do not work very steadily, but
it would be some weeks from the time we got the worsted until we
returned it.
11,611. Do you know what these shawls would sell for?-No,
11,612. Have you never sold a shawl of that kind yourself?-I
have sold shawls to Mr. Sinclair of our own spinning, and got 18s.,
19s., and 20s. for them.
11,613. Were these shawls very much the same as that which you
got 16s. for?-No, they were not so fine.
11,614. Would they be much the same as those you got 10s. 6d. for
knitting?-Yes; they were quite as fine.
11,615. And you would sell them for 18s. or 20s. in goods?-Yes.
11,616. What would the wool of one of those shawls you sold to
Mr. Sinclair cost you?-It would cost 1s. 6d. per lb., and 1/2 lb.
would make one of them.
11,617. That would be 9d. for the wool. How long would the
spinning take you in the way you work?-Perhaps more than a
week. We have to go to the hill for our peats and turf, and that
takes up part of our time.
11,618. Which do you think pays you best,-getting 10s. 6d. for
knitting the shawl, or spinning your own wool and selling it?-
Spinning our own wool pays best.
11,619. Do you sell your shawls yourself?-Sometimes; but our
aunt generally goes with them.
11 620. Have you asked for money yourself and been refused
it?-Yes; I was only refused it once.
11,621. What was the largest sum of money you ever got from the
merchants?-3d. or 4d.
11,622. Did your aunt sometimes succeed better in getting money
than you did?-Sometimes. When visitors were here she would;
she always sold them to them.
11,623. But when she sold to a merchant, has she often got more
money than you have mentioned just now?-No; when she sold to
the merchants, and did not want to take goods for the whole, she
took a line. It was from Mr. Sinclair that she got lines, and when
we wanted goods we took back the line and got them. We once
got lines from Mr. Tulloch also. We only got goods for them, not
cash.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, ISABELLA HENDERSON, examined.
11,624. You live in Scalloway with your father and sister?-Yes.
11,625. Is your father an old man?-Yes. He is between sixty and
seventy years old. He is not fit to work much, but he goes to sea
occasionally in fine weather.
11,626. Do you and your sister chiefly support the family by your
knitting and other work?-Yes.
11,627. Do you require cash sometimes for your rent and
provisions?-Yes.
11,628. Have you a little bit of ground?-Yes. We have a small
bit from the farmers during the season for potatoes.
11,629. Where do you generally sell your veils?-We just sell
them to any of the merchants. We make them chiefly with our
own wool, but sometimes we get worsted given out to us from Mr.
Sinclair and Mr. Arthur Laurenson.
11,630. Have you accounts with these merchants?-Yes. We
always had accounts when we got out worsted from them.
11,631. When you knit for them with their worsted, are you paid in
goods?-Yes.
11,632. And also when you sell an article of your own?-Yes.
11,633. Have you ever got any money from them?-No.
11,634. Have you ever asked for it?-Yes. It is some time ago,
but I asked once or twice, and was refused. After that I was
accustomed to get nothing but tea or soft goods, or anything else
they had in the shop, and I did not ask for money again.
11,635. Did they ever ask you to take a less price when you asked
for money?-No.
11,636. Did they never offer to give you money if you would take
less for your goods?-No
11,637. Have you ever had to exchange your goods for
provisions?-Often. I have done that with several people.
Sometimes, when I sold my veils, I would have to take a line
from Mr. Sinclair; and if I knew any person who was requiring
such goods as Mr. Sinclair kept, I would sell the line to them, and
they would go to Lerwick with it and get what they wanted.
11,638. Who have you bartered your lines with in that way?-I
am not inclined to tell their names, because it was done to me as a
favour, and they did not wish it to be made known. I may say,
however, that I have given the soft goods to Mrs. Tait in Charles
Nicholson's shop.
11,639. Was Mrs. Tait always ready to take your goods?-She was
not very ready, but when she saw it was necessary, she would do it
out of kindness.
11,640. When you dispose of your goods in that way, do you
generally get the full value for them?-Not always.
11,641. You have to take a little off them in order to get what you
want?-Yes.
11,642. Do you do that several times in the year?-I do it very
often.
11,643. Do you know that other knitters have to do the same
thing?-Very likely they do. I believe there are others who
have to do it besides me.
11,644. Have you often given away your lines in the way you have
mentioned?-Yes, very often.
11,645. Do you make a practice of it?-Yes, I have had to do it.
11,646. Do you get a great number of lines in the course of the
year?-Sometimes; not a great many. I just get them as I require
them.
11,647. What do you get for the lines when you part with them in
the way you have mentioned?-I have got money, and sometimes
provisions.
11,648. Have you got money for a line lately?-Yes, in harvest. It
was a line for 7s.
11,649. Did you get 7s. in money for it?-Yes; but when the
people came to take the goods, if they did not get them to their
own mind, I had to make up whatever loss they had upon them.
11,650. Was that the bargain, that if they did not get their
satisfaction in goods, you were to give them back some of the
money?-No, not the money. I was just to give them something
in addition. Of course, they could not expect the money back
from me.
11,651. Did you give them anything back?-They have not sought
for it yet, and I cannot say whether they will ask for anything or
not.
11,652. Have you always got the full amount of the line in money,
when you gave it in that way?-No; not altogether.
11,653. Have you sometimes given it for less than the sum named
in it?-Yes.
11,654. For 6d. or 1s. less?-That just depended on the amount of
the line. I could not say particularly.
11,655. Did you get the full value for all the lines [Page 286]
which you parted with last harvest?-Yes, I got the full value for
them, but it was as a favour to me that I got it.
11,656. Can you mention any case in which you got less for a line
than the sum that was named in it?-I could not remember any
particular case where that happened with a line; but I have often
suffered a good deal of loss by the soft goods. On one occasion I
lost 1s. 6d. upon 6s. 6d.
11,657. Did you get 6s. 6d. worth of soft goods, and give them
away for 5s.?-Yes.
11,658. Did you get 5s. in money?-No; not altogether in money,
but partly in meal. They said the cost price of the articles would
be 5s, and they gave me that value for them.
11,659. Have you ever given anything back, when the people that
you gave the lines to were not able to satisfy themselves at the
shop?-Yes, once. I gave them the worth of 1s. in other goods
that I had got from the shop.
11,660. What was the value of that line?-I cannot say. The lines
I have got have run between 3s. and 10s.; but I could not say the
exact amount of that particular line.
11,661. Do you know any people who make a trade of buying
goods from the knitters, and selling them through the country?-I
could not say that any person makes a trade of it. I don't think any
person would like to do that.
11,662. Are there not some women who hawk goods through the
country, which they have got in that way?-I know there are and I
have done that myself more than once.
11,663. What have you done more than once?-Taken the soft
goods which I got at Lerwick, and gone through the country and
sold them. The last time I did that was three years past in spring,
and I had done it before.
11,664. Was it in a bad year when you did that?-Yes.
11,665. And you wanted potatoes?-Yes.
11,666. Had you to travel far in order to get them?-Between two
and three miles.
11,667. Had you tried often before you got your goods sold?-Not
often. Of course, I had spoken to the people before I took the
goods to them. I did not go out on the chance of selling them.
11,668. Were the goods taken as a favour to you, and not in the
ordinary way of business?-Yes, it was done quite as a favour.
11,669. But do you know any person who travels through the
country regularly, and hawks goods which have been bought from
the knitters?-I don't know any person particularly who has done
that.
11,670. Have you ever heard that such things were done?-I
cannot say that I have.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ANN LEASK or INKSTER,
examined.
11,671. You live in Scalloway?-I do.
11,672. Have you sometimes knitted hosiery goods for sale?-Yes;
I have knitted some for Mr. Sinclair.
11,673. Have you been paid for them in money or in goods?-
When I knitted goods for sale I was paid for them in money. I
knitted some for Dr. Hamilton, Bressay, and I was paid money for
them. He had got an order for them from the south.
11,674. But when you sold them to merchants, you were paid in
goods?-Yes; I never asked them for any money, because I did not
require it. I always took what I required in cottons, cloth, and so
on. Besides, I knew it was not the practice to give money.
11,675. Did you sell your own knitting?-No. I knitted for Mr.
Sinclair, except what I got orders to knit from the south.
11,676. Have you an aunt who knits also?-Yes.
11,677. Does she sometimes sell shawls made with her own
worsted?-She did formerly, but she does not do so now.
11,678. Do you think the merchants make any profit by the shawls
they buy?-I cannot say; perhaps they do.
11,679. They say they sell them to the merchants in the south at
exactly the same rate as they buy them here. Do you know of any
case where a merchant has sold a shawl at a great profit?-No.
11,680. Do you know of a merchant buying a shawl from you for
15s. or 16s., and then selling it within a few minutes after that for
double the money?-No. I do not remember any case of that kind.
11,681. Did you ever hear of such a case?-Not so far as I
recollect.
11,682. Did you or your aunt ever sell a shawl at 15s., or about that
price, which was sold immediately afterwards, in the same shop, to
a gentleman for about twice the money?-I never saw that done.
My aunt may have done so for anything I know, for I was not
always with her. I was in service for some time, and I cannot
answer for what she may have done at that time. My aunt's name
is Ann Williamson; she lives in Scalloway.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Mrs. ELIZABETH IRVINE or SMITH,
examined.
11,683. You live in Scalloway?-Yes.
11,684. Have you been in the habit of knitting?-Yes, a little. I
have knitted for several people, but chiefly for Mr. Sinclair. I have
knitted for him for eleven years, and I keep an account with him.
11,685. Do you get what goods you want out of his shop?-Yes.
I asked for work from him when I was in great need, and I got
supplies and worsted, and whatever I asked from him.
11,686. Has that system of dealing been going on for eleven
years?-Yes.
11,687. Have you always got your supplies from his shop?-I
always got what I asked.
11,688. Have you got money from him when you wanted it?-Yes.
The first I got was 2s., and the last I got was 10s.
11,689. What was that for?-I just got it on the work I was doing.
11,690. When did you get the 10s.?-It was before you came to
Shetland; I cannot tell how many weeks it was ago. I sent off a
score of veils to my sister-in-law in Lerwick, and told her to ask a
few shillings for me. She did so, and Mr. Sinclair gave her 10s.
11,691. Had she to ask more than once for the money?-No; she
just took in the veils, and he gave her the money, so far as I am
aware.
11,692. Did you tell her to say what you wanted the money for?-I
did not.
11,693. Had you ever got as much money as that before?-No; but
whatever money I asked I got, from 6d. upwards.
11,694. Have you ever asked for a sixpence or a shilling?-I have
asked for it many a time and got it and I generally got a little more
than I asked.
11,695. Was 2s. the next largest sum you got before the 10s.?-
No, I had got 3s., and 4s. 6d., and so on.
11,696. Did you want that money to pay your rent with?-I have a
pension of 11s. a quarter from the Merchant Seamen's Fund, and
that pays my rent The pension is paid to me in Lerwick by Mr.
Stewart.
11,697. Do you always get payment of that yourself when you go
to Lerwick?-Yes, except sometimes when I cannot go, and then I
send a paper to my brother in Lerwick, and he gets the money for
me. My brother is in Mr. Harrison's store.
11,698. Did you ever have occasion to barter any of the goods you
got for provisions?-I never did that except once when a woman
took a quarter of a pound of tea from me and gave me milk for it,
as I had not [Page 287] the money at the time. She was well
satisfied with Mr. Sinclair's tea., and told me to get it from him. It
was the same to her as money.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, JOHN THOMSON, examined.
11,699. You are a shopkeeper and grocer at Sandsound in the
parish of Sandsting?-Yes, in a small way.
11,700. How far is that from here?-About 10 miles when we go
by land, but it is a little shorter when we go by boat.
11,701. On whose property is your shop?-On the property of Mr.
Greig of Reawick, and Mr. Umphray is trustee for it.
11,702. How far are you from Reawick?-About 3 miles.
11,703. Do you do anything in the fishing?-A little. I buy fish in
winter and spring, but not in summer. I don't have the chance of
buying any in summer. The place is a little inland, and there is not
much fishing carried on there, except in bad weather in winter and
spring when the men go to fish in the bays.
11,704. Do you cure the fish yourself?-Yes.
11,705. How much may you buy in the course of a winter and
spring?-In some years I have bought as much as nearly 7 tons of
dry fish, cod and ling, and in other years as low as 2 tons.
11,706. Do you settle with the men for these fish when they are
delivered to you?-Yes.
11,707. Do they take the price in money or in goods?-I give them
money unless they want goods, but if they want goods they get
them.
11,708. Do you ask them if they want anything?-Sometimes, and
at other times if they don't ask for goods I give them the price.
11,709. You deal both in groceries and soft goods?-Yes, but very
little in soft goods, except at times.
11,710. Do some of the men run accounts with you?-Some of
them do until about 1st April when they are going to Faroe or to
the south; but with others settle just at the time when they get the
goods or when they give me their fish. That is done either way as
the men prefer it themselves.
11,711. Do you run accounts with the fishermen for supplies at
other seasons of the year?-Sometimes, when they are a little hard
up in the summer time, I give them a little supply either of meal or
tea, or anything else, to oblige them; but I don't like to do that to a
great extent. I cannot do it very well.
11,712. Do the fishermen generally go for their supplies in
summer to the larger merchants?-Yes; those who go to the Faroe
fishing generally do so.
11,713. Why is that?-Because when they are out at the fishing for
the larger merchants, it is better for them to take their supplies at
their shops.
11,714. But why could they not deal with you as well?-The larger
merchants are more able to give them credit as they are fishing for
them. In summer and harvest I generally sell, for cash when I can
get it, and I am not very able to give long credits.
11,715. Do you do much business for cash in summer and
harvest?-Not much; about £2 or £3 a week is generally the
most.
11,716. And I suppose the men and their families generally have
to go to the large merchants where they can get credit at that
season?-At that season of the year they do.
11,717. Do you think you would have a better business if the men
were paid for their fish as they were delivered?-I suppose I
might.
11,718. They would not require to get credit then?-No; but the
men who go to Faroe in the smacks have to make long voyages,
and they could not be paid in that way.
11,719. But there are a number of men at the haaf in your district,
are there not?-No, not in my district. There is scarcely a boat in
my parish. The boats which go to that fishing are farther north-at
Northmaven and Sandness.
11,720. Then the Faroe fishermen in your parish are only home
twice in the summer?-Yes; they generally come home twice,
once in June, and then about the beginning of harvest but some do
not return until September.
11,721. Therefore they could not, in that case, be paid at the
delivery of their fish, so as to have cash to deal with a merchant
who is not employing them?-They could not.
11,722. Do you think you would have a better chance of business
if they were settled with when they came home from Faroe,
instead of having to wait for a good many months for a
settlement?-I don't know. It takes so long a time to get the
fish dried, that I don't think they could very well be settled with
when they came home.
11,723. They might be settled with then if they were paid
according to the weight of the fish when they were landed?-
Yes; but I could not say whether I would do any better business
in that case or not.
11,724. Do you think you would do a better business if you had
some boats of your own?-Yes.
11,725. Why?-Because I would be getting more fish.
11,726. But would you do a better business in your provisions and
goods?-Yes, I might be a small bit better.
11,727. Would that be because the men would come to you for
supplies?-Yes; and then I would have more fish too.
11,728. Are the men at liberty to sell as many fish as they please to
you in winter and spring?-Yes, at any time of the year.
11,729. Then you could engage a boat's crew in your district
without any restriction?-Yes; there are no bound men there.
11,730. Are there many merchants in the parish of Sandsting who
do about the same extent of business as you?-I think most of
them do more business than me, because it is longer since they
commenced, and they are better in the way of it.
11,731. Do you mean that they have got a larger connection?-
Yes; and a better locality.
11,732. Are most of them engaged in buying fish?-No; there are
scarcely any of them about me who are in the fishing trade, except
Messrs. Garriock & Co. They have almost all the fishing business
in that part of the country.
11,733. Have they the largest shop business too?-Yes.
11,734. Whom do you sell your fish to?-To Mr. Harrison
generally. We sell them to him as soon as they are dried at the
end of the year.
11,735. Are you paid for them in cash?-Yes, if we want cash.
11,736. If you don't want cash, do you take goods for your
shop?-Yes, if we want them; but if we want cash he gives it at
any time either in advance or at settling time.
11,737. But he does supply goods in a wholesale way to
merchants?-Yes; he sometimes supplies me with little meal
and tea, and general groceries.
11,738. Do you not get all your supplies from him?-No, not the
whole of them. I think I get as much from Glasgow as from him;
generally from two houses there.
11,739. What do you get from Glasgow?-Tea and sugar and
coffee, and general groceries.
11,740. Do you also get the same articles from Harrison &
Sons?-Yes.
11,741. Do you pay the same price to both?-They are nearly all
about the same price, except that the goods from Glasgow may be
about a halfpenny per pound less.
11,742. Is that after allowing for freight?-No; it is taking them at
cost price.
11,743. Do you write for these things to Glasgow direct?-Yes,
when I get them from there.
11,744. When do you order them from there?-My [Page 288]
dealings in that way are not always at the one time. Sometimes in
the spring I order them fortnightly, and sometimes monthly, and
sometimes at longer intervals. They are sent to Lerwick in the
steamboat, and brought across to Scalloway by carts, and I come
here with a boat for them. I think it is about six weeks since I got
any tea from Glasgow, and it is a month since I got some other
stuff.
11,745. Did you come from Sandsound to Scalloway for the tea?-
No; I took it out the north road Weisdale and all overland.
11,746. Did you come to Scalloway on purpose for that?-No; the
north carts took it out.
11,747. Do you think the tea which you got in that way cost you
more when it was delivered than the tea you got from Harrison &
Sons?-No. I think that, taking it on the whole, and after paying
the freight it would come to just about the same.
11,748. Were the qualities the same?-Yes, as near as I could
judge.
11,749. Do you sell both kinds of tea at the same price?-Yes, at
8d.
11,750. How much of your fish that you sell to Harrison & Sons
will be paid for in goods?-About one half as near as I can judge.
11,751. Do you receive the other half in cash?-Yes.
11,752. Was that the case last year?-Yes.
11,753. When do you settle with Harrison & Sons?-I settled with
them last year on 1st October for the fish which I had got in the
previous winter and spring.
11,754. Do many of the shops in your parish deal with Harrison &
Sons in the same way?-I think none of them do. None of the
other merchants there sell fish to them, so far as I am aware.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, AGNES TAIT, examined.
11,755. You live in Scalloway?-Yes.
11,756. Do you live alone?-Yes.
11,757. Do you support yourself entirely by knitting?-Yes; I
cannot work at anything else. I knit fine shawls and veils. I have
knitted for the last six months to Mr. Moncrieff with his worsted,
and I have been paid in goods. Before that I knitted with my own
worsted, and I sold my work to any merchant in Lerwick, generally
to Mr. Sinclair. I never asked any money from him, because we
knew that it was the rule that we would not get it. I wanted it for
many purposes; but I would not have got it even though I had
asked it.
11,758. But you could not get on without some money, I
suppose?- No. I sent some shawls and veils south for
money with which to pay my rent.
11,759. Did you get enough money from them for all that you
wanted?-I was often at a loss for money, and then I had to sell
tea and other things which I had got in Lerwick for my hosiery. I
sold tea and soft goods to any neighbour who was kind enough to
take them.
11,760. Such as Mrs. Tait?-No, I never sold any to Mrs. Tait.
11,761. Did you sell your things often in that way?-Yes, very
often.
11,762. Every month?-I don't think I did it every month.
11,763. Did you do it two or three times every year?-Yes; oftener
than that.
11,764. How much goods did you sell in that way?-If I sold a
shawl for about 18s. I would get 18s. worth of goods, and of that a
good deal was tea-perhaps one pound or a pound and a half.
11,765. Would you sell all that tea?-Yes.
11,766. And something else besides?-I don't recollect of selling
anything else except the tea.
11,767. Did you always bring home some tea from Lerwick in
order to sell it?-Yes.
11,768. And did you always find some of your neighbours ready to
buy it?-Yes; there were always some of them kind enough to buy
it from me.
11,769. Did you sell it at the full price that it had cost you?-Yes.
11,770. You did not sell it under its value?-No.
11,771. You did that very often, because you had no other way of
getting money?-Yes.
11,772. Do you ever get any lines from the merchants in
Lerwick?-No.
11,773. Do you always settle for your hosiery articles at once?-
Yes.
11,774. Would you rather have money than be paid for your work
in the way you have mentioned?-Yes, I would rather have
money; but we knew that we would not get it, and therefore we
never asked it.
11,775. Do you think you could make a better use of the money
than you do of the goods?-Yes, a great deal better.
11,776. You think you could turn it to better account?-Yes.
11,777. Do you think you take more out in soft goods than you
require?-We often take out things which we are not requiring.
We cannot get anything else and therefore we have just to take
out the goods.
11,778. Can you mention anything which you have taken out when
you were not requiring it?-No. I afterwards sold it; I did not keep
it.
11,779. What are the goods you have sold?-Cottons.
11,780. Anything else?-No; but I have not sold any cotton for the
last twelve months.
11,781. Did you ever sell cotton or any other goods under the price
you paid for them?-No, I generally got the value. I did not sell
these things about Scalloway; I went up occasionally to see some
friends of mine in the west side of Sandsting, and I took the goods
with me.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, WILLIAM HARCUS, examined.
11,782. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-Yes; I have a small
business here. I have carried on business as a merchant here for
between four and five years.
11,783. Have you many transactions with the fishermen here?-I
have, in buying and selling groceries and general goods, but not in
curing fish.
11,784. Do you run any accounts with fishermen?-No; unless
perhaps for a few days, until they come back again to settle. It
could not be said that I do credit trade. It is professedly a cash
trade.
11,785. Have you any disadvantages in carrying on your trade from
the system of barter which prevails in Shetland?-Perhaps if the
whole trade were done in cash, there might be some advantages in
some respects-that is to say, if there was money always coming
to the fishermen at the end of the season, or when the settlement
takes place.
11,786. If that were so, you think a merchant carrying on a cash
business would be able to increase his receipts?-I think so.
11,787. Is it your opinion, from your own experience, that a
ready-money business is limited by the want of money in the
hands of the fishermen and tenants in the district?-I think it is.
I think if there was money there would be more trade done in a
ready-money way than there is.
11,788. Are you aware that very little money, compared with
the amount of their earnings, passes into the hands of the
fishermen?-I have no means of knowing that exactly; but I
don't see much money, among the fishermen. What money we
get is principally from sailors returning from the south, and, of
course, a little from the fishermen after settling time.
11,789. Do you find that your business is larger after settling time
than at other times?-Last year it was larger, because there was a
good Faroe fishing. This year I don't think there has been any
difference.
11,790. Do your books show that there is a larger [Page 289] cash
business done after settling time?-No, my books don't show that.
I don't enter cash transactions in them.
11,791. How do you know that the business was larger at that
time?-Just by noticing the daily or weekly drawings.
11,792. Did you keep notes of your weekly drawings?-I did at
one time, but I have been so busy lately, and so much away from
home, that I have not got that attended to.
11,793. How long is it since you kept notes of your weekly
drawings which would show whether your business increased or
not in the spring?-I think it was only in the first year that I was in
business that I did so; but I can recollect pretty well about the
average amount of my weekly drawings. In a small business like
mine we can depend a good deal upon the memory for that.
11,794. And so far as your recollection serves you, you think your
weekly drawings were larger at that period?-Yes. When there
has been a good fishing, and the men have something to get at the
settlement our drawings are usually larger after that.
11,795. Do you think that shows that the men prefer, when they
have money in their hands, to deal with you rather than to deal
with the fish merchant who employs them?-I don't think it does;
at least I could not say that it does, because the fish merchant who
employs them might be having a larger cash return at that time too.
11,796. At all events you may fairly entertain the opinion that you
would have a better chance among the fishermen if a cash system
were general?-I think so.
11,797. If, for example, the fishermen were paid by weekly, or
fortnightly, or monthly payments, for their fish delivered during
the summer, do you think you would be more likely to obtain an
additional share of their custom?-If that were possible, I might;
but I don't think it would be possible to pay them at such short
periods, because it would occupy so much time. The fishermen
would have to come in and wait perhaps whole days before they
could be settled with, and I don't think that would be a good plan
for them at all.
11,798. If a note of the fish is taken at the time when they are
delivered, would there be any difficulty in settling at the same
time?-I never considered that; but I think there would be a
difficulty in settling with the fishermen every day when they
landed their fish.
11,799. In winter and spring they are settled with every time
they deliver fish?-Yes; but the quantity delivered then is
comparatively small. Sometimes in summer the fishermen are
working ten or twelve miles away from where the curer is, and of
course, to come in and be settled with every week, or even every
month, would be a great hardship. They might lose very good days
when they could be more profitably employed at the fishing. I
think quarterly or half-yearly settlements would be as much as
could be managed.
11,800. You have not had any experience yourself in settling with
fishermen, either before you began business here or since?-No. I
have a few men fishing lobsters, but they are not worth speaking
about. I think there are only three crews' of them, and I settle
always with them when they bring up their fish; but the trade is so
small that there is no difficulty in settling with them then.
11,801. How long does that fishing last?-It is only carried on
during the winter; and it was arranged that they should come
fortnightly with the lobsters, and settle fortnightly, when the
weather would permit them.
11,802. Do you do anything in the oyster fishery?-I did at one
time, and I still do a little, but there are very few to be had.
11,803. How are they paid for?-In cash when I buy them.
11,804. Do you know what is the practice of other buyers-I
would rather that they should state that themselves. I think Mr.
Nicholson buys for cash, but I am not certain. He is present.
11,805. When you settle for your lobsters, where is the payment
made?-In my shop.
11,806. In that case do the men generally spend part of the cash
there and then?-They sometimes spend part of it.
11,807. Do they not spend part of it generally?-Yes; but I lay
down the money on the counter, and they take it up. They have
the choice either of spending it or taking it away.
11,808. Are accounts kept with any of these men?-With one of
them who superintends the bringing home of the oysters, there is
an account kept.
11,809. How often is that account settled?-Just whenever he
wants a settlement. He always gets money with him to disburse
for current expenses, and he is permitted to take from that
whatever he wants for his own use; and if he requires more money,
then there is a settlement.
11,810. Do you mean that you settle with him whenever he wants
a new advance?-No. He always has some money of mine in his
hands, and he has authority to use that both in paying the men who
are fishing for me, and for his own use.
11,811. But when that money is exhausted he comes and gets
a new supply?-He settles for that money, and what he has
taken for his own use is put to his own account, and his own
account is settled whenever he wishes to see how we stand.
That is done frequently; and I have the book here which is
kept with him. [Produces pass-book.] This [showing] is the
cash he gets for the general account, £7, 13s. 4d., and then £10,
and then £3, 17s. 2d. At that time he was in a different trade; he
was collecting shell-fish. Then he buys produce, and the account
is balanced at the end of October, when he has £5 still on hand to
give me. Here [showing] the account balanced again, and he had
£2 still on hand.
11,812. You keep that pass-book with that man; but not with the
other fishermen whom he employs?-No. They just get their
money.
11,813. Where are these men employed?-In St. Magnus Bay.
11,814. That is a long way from here?-Yes.
11,815. These are not the men that are paid in your shop?-The
men who bring the oysters are paid in the shop, and sometimes one
of these men may come along with the other man to help him to
bring home the lobsters, and then they are all paid in the shop.
11,816. But not the others who do not come?-No. The man who
has charge of the fishing for me takes the money with him to pay
them when he goes back.
11,817. I understood you to say that when the men came with
oysters and lobsters to the shop, and were paid, they generally took
away some supplies from the shop?-They generally do but they
are not asked to do it.
11,818. Do they appear to think it a fair and proper thing that they
should do so?-I think they do. I have heard them remark that
they ought to spend the money where they get it.
11,819. Is that a common sort of feeling among the men?-Yes, it
is a common feeling in the country.
11,820. In short, they apologize if they don't spend the money in
the shop where they get it?-Something like that I should not say,
that they apologize, but sometimes they tell me what they want the
money for, and they say they have to take it away. Of course, they
are not asked to leave it.
11,821. But there seems to be a kind of understanding that they are
to spend part of their earnings in the shop?-The people seem to
have the opinion that they ought to do that.
11,822. And I suppose the merchant has some feeling of the same
kind also?-I never ask them to spend the money in the shop; but,
of course, we are glad to get what money we can.
11,823. I suppose they don't require to be asked to spend some of
it?-No.
11,824. Are you engaged in the hosiery trade at all?-I once
bought a little, just to try the trade, but I gave it up. My experience
of it was that it would not pay. Being the only one about here who
gave [Page 290] meal for the hosiery, it was principally meal that
was taken, and I found no profit on it.
11,825. Then that would lead you to form the opinion that it would
not pay unless soft goods were taken in return for the hosiery?-
Unless goods were taken on which a heavy profit was got, I did not
see that it could pay me; but I tried the trade for so short a time
that I could hardly say I gave a fair trial, or that I could speak so
well about it as one who had tried it for years.
11,826. Do you not think it would be a more expedient system if
hosiery goods were paid in cash, according to prices regulated by
the demand, and that the merchants should make a fair profit upon
the hosiery itself?-That is my opinion. I believe that everything
ought to be paid for in cash, at a fair price to allow a profit.
11,827. Have you had many cases coming under your observation
in which women have been unable to obtain the necessaries of
life without bartering away the goods they have obtained for their
hosiery?-I have known few cases of that kind.
11,828. Have you been induced to purchase goods from these
women?-No.
11,829. Have you known parties who have done so?-No. They
have been offered in my shop, but I have never bought any of
them.
11,830. Have they been frequently offered?- Not very frequently;
but I have no doubt, if I had begun to buy them, they would have
been offered more frequently.
11,831. Do women generally expect to get the full price for the
goods which they offer?-I just refused to buy them. I never came
to the question of price at all, because if I had begun to buy goods
in that way, my trade would have degenerated entirely into an
agency for that sort of barter.
11,832. Are you aware whether there are parties in the country
whose principal trade consists in purchasing goods from such
women and selling them again?-I am not aware of any.
11,833. You don't know whether there are hawkers or pedlars who
live in that way?-I don't know. I think it is only right for me to
say that it takes a long time to settle with Shetland men owing to
them not being able to read accounts, and that may account for the
fact that they settle so seldom. I believe that if crew were to settle
every three months, it might take them a whole day to carry
through that settlement.
11,834. Is that from defective education in arithmetic?-Yes, from
defective education.
11,835. Shetland men generally seem a very intelligent and
well-educated class of men for their rank of life?-Some of
them are.
11,836. Do you think they are further back in arithmetic than in
other branches of education?-I think so.
11,837. How do you account for that?-I cannot account for it.
11,838. In what way have you ascertained that fact?-In settling
with the few men that I have had dealings with.
11,839. Don't you think that if pass-books were kept regularly the
settlement would become a shorter process than it is?-Yes; but
many of them would not be able to read the pass-books, and of
course they would be of little use to them. Still, a great many now
can read them, because the boys are being better educated, and I
think the country is getting ripe for a new system. I think it right
you add that pass-books, as a matter of course, should be given to
every one having accounts.
11,840. But suppose the parties having accounts don't choose to
bring pass-books with them, and neglect to keep them up, are they
not themselves to blame?-Yes; the merchants cannot help that.
11,841. Don't you think it would be as easy for the fishermen to
have the price of their fish entered in the fish book at the time they
are delivered, and the calculation of the whole value made at that
time: the amount of each take of fish is entered in the fish book
when it is landed?-I suppose so, but I have no experience of that.
11,842. Might the price not be entered as easily?-I should think
so; but that will be a question for those who are engaged in the
trade. I can see no reason why it should not be done; but I
understand the custom of the country is to fix the price afterwards
at the end of the season.
11,843. But the price might be fixed according to the current price
at the end of the season?-I have had no experience on that
matter, and I cannot say.*
11,844. If you don't drive a credit trade, I suppose you don't keep
any books except a day-book?-I just keep a day-book and ledger,
for the wholesale trade. There are no retail transactions that pass
through my books at all. The ledger contains the names of those I
deal with in the south.
11,845. Are the prices at which you sell provisions higher or lower
than those at which they are sold in the neighbouring shops?-It
would be impossible for me to say exactly; but I think they are
about the same.
11,846. What is the retail price of meal just now in your shop?-It
is 141/2d. per peck.
11,847. And of flour?-There are two kinds, one at 1s. and on
at 13d. Meal is always 1/2d. peck dearer in Scalloway than in
Lerwick, on account of the cartage.
11,848. Is there no meal brought here by sea?-Very little.
11,849. Have you many business transactions with the inhabitants
of Burra?-Yes, some.
11,850. Do some of the men purchase at your shop the supplies
they require for their families?-Yes, occasionally.
11,851. Do they do so for ready money, or upon credit?-Either
for ready money or for eggs.
11,852. Do they sell all their eggs to you?-I don't know. I think
they sell to all the grocers in the village.
11,853. In what way are their eggs paid for?-The eggs are
generally paid for in barter at one price, and [Page 291] in cash
at another price; but, for the last three months, I have bought them
at the barter price for cash. The present price is 9d. per dozen,
whether paid for in goods or cash, but they are very seldom sold
for cash.
11,854. What is the kind of goods generally taken in exchange for
eggs?-Everything we sell-tea, sugar, meal, bread, and soft
goods.
11,855. Do you export a number of the eggs you buy?-Yes. They
are sent south by the steamer.
11,856. Have there been any whales driven in here, while you have
been resident in Scalloway?-There was one shoal of whales
driven into the bay below this place since I came here. They were
sold by auction. Mr. Garriock, of Reawick, managed the sale.
The parties concerned in the capture got two-thirds of the proceeds
of the oil as their share.
11,857. Are you aware that complaints are made with regard to the
landlord's claim to have one-third of the oil?-Yes; there have
been complaints made. I had a share in the whales that were
driven ashore, and I wrote to the Board of Trade about it, but it
seemed they could do nothing; at least they did not choose to do
anything in the matter.
11,858. Were the whales of the bottle-nosed kind?-No. They are
known by the name of caain, or driving whales.
11,859. Did the Board of Trade decline to interfere on the ground
that the Crown had no interest in the kind of whale that was driven
ashore?-Yes; they said the Crown had no interest in that kind of
whales. We thought, as the Government claim the foreshores and
beaches, the proprietors had no right to claim any share of the oil,
because the blubber is never taken above high-water mark Most
of the whales were killed at sea, and dragged ashore, and we
thought the fishermen should have the same right to beach whales
as to beach cod or ling, or anything else under the Act regulating
the fishings.
11,860. Did you obtain any information at that time, as to the
grounds upon which the landlords' claim for one-third of the
whales was based?-I did not ascertain that they had any claim for
it, other than the custom of the country, in the same way as they
claim right to bind the fishermen to fish for them, and to no other.
The Board of Trade did not say that the landlords had any right to
claim the whales; they advised me to go to law and see; but I did
not think it advisable to incur the expense of raising an action on
my own account.
11,861. Have you found your trade hampered in any degree by the
fishermen feeling under an obligation to deal for their supplies
with the merchants by whom they are employed?-I have said
already, that if the fishermen were paid oftener, more money
would be circulated, and trade would be more divided; but it
would all depend upon whether the fishermen were in debt or not,
because we could not expect the fish-curers to pay those men who
were in debt to them.
11,862. Have you found fishermen representing to you that they
would purchase goods at your shop if they were not obliged to go
where they could get credit?-I have occasionally heard such
things here, but not very often.
11,863. Perhaps you have suspected that oftener than it has been
expressed to you?-Yes.
11,864. A man does not always speak about his reasons for dealing
with a particular merchant?-I don't think he does; but I don't
think it fair if I pay ready money for such things as I buy, such as
oysters and winkles, that others should not do the same to a greater
extent than they do. I don't mean to say that they should cash for
everything, but I think they should settle oftener.
11,865. You think the fishermen should be able to have a little
money in their hands at times, instead of having it only once a
year, in January?-I think so.
11,866. And even then, I suppose, they don't always have to get
money?-I don't think they have.
11,867. Do you think that, upon the whole, your payments to
fishermen are repaid to you?-Not at once. They may take the
money home and come with it again, but it is not handed over to
me at the time when the men get it. I have paid £40 in one week
for shell-fish, without drawing more than £10.
11,868. Do your books show that?-No.
11,869. These were all cash transactions?-Yes.
11,870. But I suppose you may sometimes have paid £40 out in a
week and drawn £30 of it back?-No. I never drew £30.
* Mr. Harcus afterwards sent a letter in which he said-
'Finding that exception has been taken by certain of my neighbours
to a part of my evidence before the Truck Commission, I wish to
say in explanation, that when the question was put whether I
would approve in all cases of daily or weekly settlements, several
difficulties occurred to my mind, and the want of proficiency in
arithmetic among the fishermen was one of them, and not the
only one, as is being attempted to be made to appear. I hope my
words will bear out this idea. If my memory serves me right I gave
as one difficulty the great distance between the fishing-ground
and curer's headquarters; and I was having in consideration the
extra expense that would be incurred if provision were made at
out-stations for daily or weekly settlements, and the probability of
an extra hand being required whose wages would have to come off
the fisherman.
'With regard to my statements as to the proportion of Shetland
fishermen who would be able to settle quickly by having
pass-books, I was considering that it would be the duty of the men
to divide their own shares, and to make all calculations ready for
entering in their several pass-books, and that where there were
boys forming part of a crew, and having fractional shares, very few
indeed of the men could divide such shares. I think I also stated
that I was speaking of those I had dealt with; but, of course, I
could not be understood to speak of anything further than my
experience went.
'I was also having in view that should a crew only require a few
minutes to settle, yet if many crews came up at one time, as the
tides and nature of the fishing would necessitate, some of them
would have to wait several hours, which time could not possibly
be spared, as during the busy part of the season the men can only
allow themselves from four to five hours out of the twenty-four for
sleep. Neither do I think that pass-books can expedite settlement
much as some say. They can do little more than save the time
required to head a printed form of account, say three or four
minutes for each crew; but of course, are indispensable for other
purposes.
'It will be seen from my evidence that the oftener curers settle
with their men the better for my trade; and therefore, wishing to
guard against having my mind influenced by selfish motive, I
stated honestly what objections to daily or weekly settlements
occurred to my mind at the moment.
'I trust it will be seen from my evidence as to my own practice
that I approve of making settlements as often as practicable, in
order to teach the people self-reliance and provident habits, and
also to give them a chance to lay out their earnings to the best
advantage.
' I have no wish to disparage this people. On the contrary, I think
they deserve very great praise for being what they are under very
unfavourable circumstances, and if this were the proper place I
would have great pleasure in saying a good deal on this point; but
though their general intelligence is perhaps superior to that of the
same class in any other part of the country, I have not met with
much proficiency in arithmetic among old and middle-aged men
especially; and it is not difficult to see from the evidence the small
amount of their experience in handling accounts, and the want of
inducements to cultivate the art of book-keeping.'
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, Rev. NICOL NICOLSON, examined.
11,871. You are a clergyman of the Independent Church in
Scalloway?-I am. I have been twenty-two years here, first
as missionary, and afterwards as pastor of a church.
11,872. Are your people mostly engaged in fishing?-Some of
them are.
11,873. I suppose you are intimately acquainted with the condition
of the fishing population of this district?-It appears to me by this
time that I am not so well acquainted with it as I thought, because I
have been hearing things coming out that I did not understand to
be the case before the evidence was given.
11,874. Were you aware of the fact that very few fishermen
received a large part of their earnings in money?-I understood
that all of them who were out of debt got money from the
merchants when they wanted it. I was once a fisherman myself,
and that was the way in which I was dealt with. I did not think
that in any of the shops here the men who had cash in the
merchant's hands, and who were in necessity for it would not
have got it.
11,875. Do you not think it would be better for the fishermen to be
paid for their fish more frequently than once a year?-There are
certain boats that deliver their fish weekly, and certainly it would
be better for the men in them to be paid weekly; but there are a
great many of the fishermen employed in smacks, from which they
do not come ashore weekly, nor monthly.
11,876. Do you mean that the Faroe fishermen cannot be paid at
short intervals?-I mean that those who fit out smacks and agree
with men to fish on board of them for the season, cannot bring
about a settlement with them until the end of the season.
11,877. But would it not be expedient for a man who is engaged
in the home fishing, and who comes ashore every two or three
days, to have his money paid to him at shorter intervals than those
at which he now gets it, so that he might use it at his own
discretion?-It has come under my observation that many crews
who were ready to fish had no boat nor lines until they went to a
merchant who would supply them with them, and then they made
an agreement with that merchant to fish for him. They are in debt
before they begin, and how can they be paid until the merchant
sees his boat and lines clear?-Until they are cleared, he cannot
afford to pay the men.
11,878. But in other trades, merchants frequently have to pay
weekly wages to the men they employ, and take their risk of the
market?-They take their risk of the market as it is; but if a
merchant has due to him the whole value of the boat and lines, he
cannot pay money down to the men and allow them to go away
with it. He must keep it until he gets paid, or else he will be a
poor man.
11,879. Would it not be within the power of the fishermen to
purchase their own boats and lines?-They should do that, but I
don't find them doing it. I know of only one man here who has
done it.
11,880. Do you think it is impossible for the ordinary run of
fishermen to make as much money as would pay for their boat and
lines?-Most of the fishermen hereabout can never do it, owing to
the way they live and the small fishings they make. They are not
very fit to go out except in fine weather; and then they have to
maintain themselves on shore in coarse weather.
11,881. How does the way in which they live prevent [Page 292]
them from being able to purchase boats and lines?-They are poor
men; they have no capital; and they are neither fed nor clothed in
such a way as to enable them to carry on the fishing properly. If
any man will give them credit for a boat and lines they just hang
on with him, and never make money, or catch fish from which
money can be made. I know a number of boats that seem to do
very little all the year round. The crews are mostly old, worn-out
men, and some of them are perhaps not very provident at home. I
never saw them fed and clothed like regular fishermen; and you
cannot expect them to go to sea properly.
11,882. What do you mean when you say that they are not fed and
clothed like regular fishermen?-I mean like fishermen on the
coast of Scotland, or in any other place.
11,883. Have you had some experience among fishermen on the
coast of Scotland or elsewhere than here?-Not on the coast of
Scotland, further than that I have gone among them, and spoken
with them, and seen how they get on. I have seen them go off
almost every day in winter, unless when there was a very extra
breeze of wind.
11,884. Have they better boats in these places?-Yes; they have
good boats, and they are well-clad, well-fed, healthy men; while
there are men going on board the boats here who I believe, these
other men would not take on board with them, owing to their want
of strength.
11,885. You are not speaking of the ordinary run of Shetland
fishermen just now?-I am speaking of the Scalloway men. I
understand that in some of the islands, such as Burra, there are a
class of very good men; but here there are no men staying ashore,
except young boys and old men. All the rest go into the merchant
service. A few go to Faroe, but only a few.
11,886. It is among these people who live in Scalloway that your
experience chiefly lies?-Yes; it is to them I refer when I speak of
the people about here.
11,887. So that when you are speaking about the advantages or
disadvantages of a change, your remarks rather apply to the people
of Scalloway than to the Shetland fishermen in general?-I say
that most of the fishermen with whom I am acquainted in
Scalloway, except one boat's crew, are such men as never do make
earnings. They cannot get their boat and lines except on credit,
and the merchants who give them out on credit require to keep
what little fish they catch until these are paid, while the poor men
are always asking for further advances on which to live. Therefore
the men cannot have any money; and I don't blame the merchants,
because the men still continue indebted to them.
11,888. Do you entertain that opinion with regard to other
fishermen, strong young men, who are able to make better
fishings than those you are now speaking of?-I believe there
are such men in Burra, and perhaps even in Trondra, but I don't
know any such men in Scalloway who are inclined to go to the
fishing. Strong young men there go elsewhere.
11,889. Could these strong young men in Burra and Trondra
purchase their own boats?-I think they could.
11,890. And that you consider would be an advantage to any
fisherman?-Yes, it would be an advantage but I question whether
many of the young men in Burra would confine themselves to boat
fishing.
11,891. Do you think the system of being paid only once a year has
the effect of producing improvident habits among the men?-I
don't know. I was once a fisherman myself, and paid once a year,
and I liked it well enough, for if I wanted money sooner I got it;
but if I could do without it, I was pleased to get a larger sum at one
time, and have it in reserve.
11,892. There is no doubt that, to many men, it may be an
advantage to get a large sum paid at once; but, looking at the
generality of the people that you live among, do you not think it
would be better for them to have their money in their hand, paid to
them every fortnight or every month? May they not, under the
present system, run up larger accounts with the merchant who
supplies them than they can afford to pay?-I am not aware that
money is forthcoming at all from the fishing carried on in these
boats. I have already said that I don't think the boats are fished so
as to clear money, and consequently the men cannot have money.
They are generally very poor and in debt.
11,893. Do you mean that almost all, the men in Scalloway are
so?-All the fishermen that are in the boats, except one boat's
crew that stands on a different footing from the others.
11,894. Do you ascribe that to the system which prevails here, or
to any fault on the part of the men?-I can scarcely ascribe it to
the fault of the men; I would say it was their misfortune. They are
old and some of them infirm, and they cannot fish like stout,
healthy men.
11,895. Have many cases come under your observation in
which women who knit have been in distress for want of food in
consequence of the way in which the hosiery is paid for?- I have
not generally heard them blame the hosiery system for it exactly,
but just the want of general employment.
11,896. I suppose most of the women here knit more or less?-
Yes; I believe the greater part of them do.
11,897. And I suppose you are aware that knitting is almost
invariably paid for in goods and not in money?-In listening to
the examinations here to-day, I have heard conflicting accounts
about that. One woman said they got no money, and another said
she got as high as 6s. and 8s. at a time.
11,898. But even that woman admitted that the rule was to pay in
goods, although she got money when she asked for it?-I believe it
is the rule to pay in goods.
11,899. Have you had any experience as to the effect of that upon
the female portion of the population?-I think most of them that I
am acquainted with act very judiciously notwithstanding.
11,900. They are able to keep themselves notwithstanding that
they do not get payment for their labour except in goods?-Of
course they do keep themselves; but they are not so well off as
they would require to be. If they could get part of the payment in
cash, it would no doubt be a great advantage to them.
11,901. Do you think they would make a good use of the money if
they had it?-There may be exceptions, but generally, I think, they
are a provident people.
11,902. Do you think the women who are paid in goods for their
hosiery sometimes get things which they do not need, simply
because they are asked to take shop goods in payment instead of
money?-I am not personally aware of that. I heard one woman
say to-day that she sometimes had a good deal of things lying on
hand; but I don't know of that being the case from my own
experience.
11,903. The people have not complained to you with regard to
it?-They have not. Some of them have said to me they would
like to have money, while others have said they were quite well
satisfied with goods.
11,904. Is there any other statement you can make with regard to
the subject of this inquiry?-I am not aware that there is. I may
say that I am in no way obliged either to the hosiery merchants or
to the fishcurers. My living comes quite from another quarter; but
I must say, when I am asked, that I believe we have honest men in
both departments of business, both as buyers of hosiery and as
curers of fish. I don't think any country will produce men of better
principles, so far as my knowledge goes.
11,905. Does it follow from that that the system which they work
is a good one?-No; I would not say that. I should like to see a
better system brought in, if it could work; and I believe the
merchants themselves would be glad to see a ready-money system
introduced if it were possible; but the difficulty is to see how it can
be got to act. We have hosiery merchants here, such as Mr.
Harcus, who have tried it, and who have had to give it up, because
they found it would not work.
[Page 293]
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, CHARLES NICHOLSON, examined.
11,906. You are a merchant in Scalloway?-I have been. I retired
from business a year ago. My son, Gideon Nicholson, my
daughter, Mrs. Tait, and another daughter's husband, David
Dalgleish, succeeded me.
11,907. How long were you in business in Scalloway before you
retired?-About 25 years.
11,908. Were you engaged in business both as a fishcurer and as a
draper and general merchant?-Yes.
11,909. How many boats did you generally employ in the haaf
fishing?-About ten or twelve boats for the ling fishing in the
summer time. In some years the numbers differed.
11,910. Were these boats generally manned from Scalloway and
the district round about?-No, there were very few of them from
Scalloway. There were some from Maywick, parish of Bigton,
about twelve miles south, and some from the island of Havera.
11,911. Had you a fishing station there?-The fish could not be
cured there, as there was not a beach for that purpose, and they had
all to be brought to Burra to be cured. For the last two or three
years they have been brought to Scalloway, and cured on beaches
here.
11,912. Were you tacksman of any properties in that district?-
No, I never was tacksman; but the proprietor, Mr. Bruce of
Simbister, held me accountable for the rents of the fishermen
employed by me. He holds us accountable for them yet. It is in
Messrs. Hay's hands just now, because Mr. Bruce does not act for
himself.
11,913. In what way do you arrange about the rents of the
fishermen whom you employ?-I have seen that when a fisherman
was £10 or £20 in my debt I still considered that I had to pay his
rent for him to the proprietor. I have paid the proprietor from £60
to £80 a year when the fishermen were perhaps due me £100 or
£200.
11,914. Was that done under an obligation which had been
undertaken by you to the proprietor?-No; I never undertook
the thing, but I always did it for the poor men.
11,915. Was there a kind of understanding between you and the
fishermen that you should advance the money for their rent?-
There was not much understanding about it, but I always did it,
and it is done at the present time.
11,916. Is that done for the accommodation of the proprietor, or
for the accommodation of the men?-It accommodates both
parties. Many of the men could not pay their rent themselves, and
what were they to do if it was not paid for them?-Their corn and
crop would have to be taken from them, and they would have had
to come to me for more meal next summer. Therefore it was
better for me to allow them to keep their crops and to pay their
rents for them.
11,917. In what way is the payment made? Is it done by you
handing the money to the men with which to go and pay their rent
themselves, or do you put it down against them in their account,
and send the proprietor a cheque for the sum?-Often before the
time when it should be settled I pay it to Mr. Bruce or to Messrs.
Hay.
11,918. Do you often pay the whole rent of the men in your
employment, to Mr. Bruce, in one sum?-Yes, or rather to Mr.
Bruce's factor. When the men had anything particular to say to
their proprietor they would come along to me for the cash, and
take it to him; but with regard to the body of the men, I never put
them to that trouble. It was some trouble for them to go from
Scalloway to Lerwick, and then to travel home age in.
11,919. Do you get separate receipts for all the men, and give them
to them at settlement?-Yes.
11,920. Is the rent generally paid on their account before
settlement?-Very often it is, or about that time. The term for
the payment of their rent is at Martinmas, upon 11th November,
and it is generally same time after that before we commence to
settle with the fishermen. We must know what price we are to
get in the market for the fish before we know what we are to give
them, or how we are to settle with them.
11,921. What sum did you pay to the proprietor in that way during
the last two or three years you were in business?-I should say that
about £60, or from £60 to £70, would be about the usual thing.
11,922. Would the amount of each man's rent be about £4 or
£5?-Yes, perhaps some higher, and some a little lower.
11,923. Then perhaps twelve or fifteen men would have their rents
paid in that way?-Yes.
11,924. But that would only be a portion of the men you were
employing?-Yes.
11,925. If you had ten or twelve boats, you would have fifty or
sixty men employed in them?-No. Some of them are small boats
that fish close to the shore, with perhaps three men in them, or two
men and two boys.
11,926. Then you might employ perhaps thirty men and boys
altogether?-Yes.
11,927. Would one half of these men not be tenants at all?-Most
of them were tenants of Mr. Bruce.
11,928. Were they under any obligation to fish for you?-No.
11,929. Could they have engaged with any other person if they had
liked?-Yes.
11,930. Have you objected to pay the rent for any one of these men
when he was considerably in your debt?-No. If I paid for one, I
paid for all. I have paid rent for a man who was between £20 and
£30 in my debt.
11,931. Does the landlord give you any return for these advances
which you make to him?-No.
11,932. Is it not a considerable advantage to him to have his rent
made secure in that way?-There is no doubt about it.
11,933. But don't you get anything from him even in the shape of a
favour?-No; I never asked it, and never got it.
11,934. Have you any fishing station on Mr. Bruce's property?-
No. The fishermen on the island of Havera cure their fish in the
island, and that is on his property, but I have no concern with
anything else.
11,935. Do they cure their fish themselves, and sell them to
you?-They cure them on the island, and send them to Scalloway,
and I sell them for them.
11,936. Have they an arrangement peculiar to themselves about
their fish?-No, there is no peculiar arrangement. Their fish have
always been under their own command, and I could not sell them
without their consent, and I have lost considerably by that.
11,937. In selling their fish do you act as their agent?-Yes.
11,938. Do you charge a commission for that?-I never had so
much good sense as to ask a commission; I did it for nothing.
11,939. You sold them for them, and I suppose they took a
quantity of goods from you when they wanted them?-Yes.
They took lines and hooks, and bread and clothes, and such
things as they required.
11,940. Did they get all their supplies from you?-I think they got
the most part of them from me.
11,941. How many people live at Havera?-I think there are four
families, but I am not sure.
11,942. Do the other people on Mr. Bruce's estate who fish for
you, and whose rent you pay, deal entirely in your shop for their
supplies?-I think the most part of them do.
11,943. Is that one reason why you pay their rents for them?-I
suppose so.
11,944. Do you find that these men are generally in your debt at
settlement?-Only some of them. There are some of the men who
have always plenty of money to get, but there are others who have
commonly been behind.
11,945. Are more than one half of them commonly behind?-No.
There are more than one half of them who always have money to
get.
11,946. Still there are some of them who are usually a good bit
behind?-Yes; but I hope they will get and be able to pay it off.
Some of them are men whose [Page 294] sons are willing now to
pay for their fathers, and it is a great matter to see that.
11,947. The debts you refer to have been incurred for supplies
of hooks and lines, and meal and other things required for the
family?-Yes; chiefly for meal. Of course, they get hooks and
lines also but they require a great deal of bread and meal.
11,948. Do those men who fish for you own their own boats, or do
the boats belong to you?-The boats are all their own.
11,949. Are you not a boat-owner?-Not with these men.
11,950. Have you some boats here?-Yes; I had too many, and got
very little profit from them.
11,951. The boats you had at Scalloway were hired out by you?-
Yes; it got the name of hire, but I never received it. The nominal
hire is 5s. per man. If it carries three men it is 15s. and if four
men, £1. That is for three or four months in the year.
11,952. These are small boats?-Yes.
11,953. Is that the kind of boat that is commonly in use in
Scalloway?-Yes.
11,954. Are there none of the six-oared boats in use here?-There
are none in use here just now. Even in summer it is the small
boats that are used here. They fish near the shore and the small
boats are more handy than the big ones.
11,955. Then there is no haaf fishing from Scalloway?-No.
11,956. Are all the fish that you cure, the produce of that inshore
fishing?-No; I have vessels that go to Faroe.
11,957. But you have no deep-sea fishing for ling?-No. I should
not say that I never get the hire, because in some few cases I have
got a little for it.
11,958. Then is it the case that you must look to the profit you
make from the fish for the only remuneration you get for the use of
these boats?-It would have been better for me if I had bought few
or no fish in Scalloway, because the people here cannot get so
much as will keep them alive. As has already been stated, the men
in Scalloway are old men, who are not able to fish much.
11,959. How many tons of fish did you sell from that part of your
fishing last year?-I am not able to answer that exactly just now,
but there are commonly from 20 to 25 tons that come from
Dunrossness.
11,960. And as much from Scalloway?-No; all that are got here
is a mere trifle, and then we buy some in winter and spring from
different quarters.
11,961. Do you also buy some in summer from other places too?-
A few lots, not much.
11,962. Do the Burra men come and sell you a few lots in
summer?-As little as possible.
11,963. Do you not like to buy from them?-I don't like to see
men leaving their masters. My men might do the same.
11,964. I suppose your men do sell to other people's factors
occasionally?-I don't think there are many men among them
who don't do that.
11,965. Is it when they want a little ready money that they do
that?-They can get it from me when they ask for it.
11,966. Perhaps, if a man is a little in your debt, he will not care to
come and ask you for ready money?-There are men who are due
me £5 and £10 and £15, and I just pay him for his fish over the
counter when he brings them.
11,967. That is for the winter and spring fishing?-Yes. I would
be happy if he could make as much from his fish as would keep
him alive, but the worst of it is that these men cannot do that.
11,968. When you pay them money over the counter for their fish,
do they generally pay some of it over the counter for supplies?-
Yes; if they can buy articles as cheap from me as from another,
they always do that. I have seldom seen them do anything else;
but if they want a little money for any particular purpose, they can
get it for that purpose.
11,969. They may need it for rent, and they will perhaps take it
away to pay to their landlord?-That is not very often the case. If
they have a house from another proprietor I very often have to pay
the rent for them.
11,970. Do you lay out a good deal of money in that way?-Rather
too much.
11,971. Do you sometimes pay other debts that are due by the men
as well as their rent?-I suppose most of their debts are with me,
except their rents.
11,972. Therefore most of their money matters are transacted
through you?-I think so.
11,973. In fact, you are a sort of banker for the place?-I don't
know that; it is very little that I get to bank.
11,974. When a man is well to do and has a balance to receive,
does he sometimes leave it in your hands?-If they thought I was
ill off for money they would do that. One year I lost about £200
on the price of ling, and rather than see me ill off for money one
and another of them who had money came and offered it to me.
11,975. Do you mean that they left what was due to them on their
fishing in your hands?-Yes; and they offered me besides money
which they had laid up in former years, if it could do me any good
and keep me going on.
11,976. Do you not think the men would be much wiser to take
their own money and spend it as they wanted? Would they not
understand the value of the money better in that way, and take
better care of it?-They take their money at the end of every
season.
11,977. But in the meantime they have spent perhaps three-fourths
or four-fifths of all their earnings?-Of course they have been
lifting their lines and hooks and everything of that sort, but they
have never wanted money when they asked for it, even although
they had nothing in my hands. Sometimes they asked for it to buy
a cow or some particular thing, and they sometimes got as much
from me as £4 or £5.
11,978. But you don't give it to them unless they want something
particular, and mention to you what it is?-No.
11,979. Do you think it is a good system for men to leave all their
affairs in your hands?-I don't know; I did not want them to do so
unless they liked.
11,980. Would not the merchant require to be a very honest man
when he is so much trusted?-He would indeed.
11,981. And a man who was disposed to deceive the fishermen
who trusted him would have very ample opportunities to do so?-
He would.
11,982. I suppose that has been done in a few exceptional cases in
Shetland?-No doubt it has.
11,983. Do you think a fisherman who lives under that system is
an independent person?-A man who has plenty of money to serve
his purpose is as independent a man, or he should be, as any.
11,984. Do you think the fishermen have plenty of money to serve
their purposes?-Not in general; but there are a few who have it.
11,985. Do you think they might all have it?-I don't think so.
11,986. Is that owing to bad seasons, or owing to a bad system, or
what?-It is sometimes owing to all these things together.
11,987. I suppose all the men you employ, and some others
besides, keep accounts in your books for the supplies which
they require for their families and for the fishing?-Yes.
11,988. Each man has a ledger account?-Yes.
11,989. And although you are out of the business, you are still
intimately acquainted with the way in which it is conducted?-
Yes.
11,990. Do you think that one half of the men at this settlement
have a balance to get in money?-I think most of the ling
fishermen had, but the cod fishermen were much more in debt.
11,991. You had not many ling fishermen?-No, only a few boats.
11,992. It is the Dunrossness men you speak of as the ling
fishermen?-Yes.
11,993. The Scalloway men are not ling fishermen?-No. I think
there was only one boat that went from Scalloway.
[Page 295]
11,994. Is the business still carried on in your name?-No; it is
carried on in the name of Nicholson & Co.
11,995. Have you any interest in it at all?-No.
11,996. It is practically the same business, however, which you
carried on?-Yes.
11,997. When you carried on business, were you in the practice of
buying hosiery?-Very little. I never took it at all, except when
the poor people were starving and in want of bread. They
sometimes came to me and said they wanted bread, and could not
get it in Lerwick, and I gave it to them.
11,998. Have you taken the goods they have got for their hosiery in
Lerwick and given them provisions instead?-Not very often, but I
have done that out of compassion.
11,999. Have you sometimes given them money in that way?-I
would not have seen them at a loss for a shilling if they wanted it
for any particular purpose.
12,000. Have you sometimes taken their lines from them which
they got from the Lerwick merchants?-No; I don't remember
doing that.
12,001. Have you been asked to do that sometimes?-I don't think
so.
12,002. Have you not been asked to give them provisions for
lines?-No.
12,003 Was it mostly cotton and soft goods or tea that you took
from them?-It was cotton and soft goods, not tea. They had a
chance of getting a little meal and potatoes in country places for
their tea, and they did not require to come to me with it.
12,004. What kind of price did you allow them for these things?-
I allowed them the same price as I sold such articles at in my own
shop; but they had paid a higher price for them in Lerwick. When
they brought the goods to me, I saw they were not equal to mine at
the same price.
12,005. So that you generally buy these cottons at a lower price
than they have been charged at in Lerwick, but at the same price
that you were in the habit of selling them for here?-Yes.
12,006. The knitters therefore would be losers nominally by the
bargain?-Yes; but it was not much that they brought to me in that
way-it was hardly worth mentioning.
12,007. What would be the difference in price on a yard of
cotton?-Perhaps 1d.
12,008. Did you find that there was always that difference?-I
don't exactly remember; but I remember sometimes looking at
the articles, and seeing that they were inferior to mine at the same
price. That was very easily seen.
12,009. Do the women sometimes object to give you the goods at a
lower price than they had paid for them?-No. It was through
necessity they came to me with them, and they always felt very
grateful that they could get bread in exchange.
12,010. Has that system gone on at times until now?-Yes, at
times.
12,011. You have some vessels employed in the Faroe fishing?-
Yes, there are two.
12,012. Are these still in your hands, or have you handed them
over to the company?-I have handed them over to the company,
as agents.
12,013. But they are still your property?-Yes; at least they are
partly mine. There are some other people who have shares in
them.
12,014. Do the men who are employed in these Faroe vessels
generally belong to Scalloway and the neighbourhood?-No;
only a few of them. The others come from different parts of the
country; some from as far west as Sandness, and others from as far
north as Delting, and so on.
12,015. Have these men accounts opened in your shop for their
outfits?-Yes.
12,016. And also for supplies to their families?-The young men
don't require supplies.
12,017. But if there are any of them married men, they will have
accounts, and their families get supplies from the company's shop
during their absence?-Yes.
12,018. Then there is a settlement with them at the end of the
season?-Yes. As soon as we can know what the fish are to bring
in the market there is settlement made.
12,019. Have you a written agreement with these men?-Yes; it is
written on stamped paper and each man signs it.
12,020. Have you made your agreements for 1872?-They are
written and are being filled up now.
Scalloway, January 22, 1872, DAVID DALGLEISH, examined.
12,021. You are now a partner of the firm of Nicholson & Co.,
Scalloway?-I am.
12,022. You have been present and heard the evidence of Mr.
Charles Nicholson?-Yes.
12,023. Have you anything to add to it, or anything additional to
suggest?-No. He has had long experience in the business, and I
have had very little. I have only been in it twelve months, since
Mr. Nicholson retired.
12,024. You have been shown certain returns with regard both to
the home and Faroe fishing, which you have been asked to fill up
and return to me. You will do so at your earliest convenience,
with the assistance of Mr. Nicholson if necessary?-Yes.
12,025. I see a number of fishermen present; if there are any of
them who wish to make any statement to me I shall be glad to hear
them. [No answer.] If no one wishes to give any further evidence,
I adjourn the sittings at this place until further notice.
<Adjourned>.
LERWICK: WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 24, 1872
<Present>-Mr Guthrie.
GEORGE GEORGESON, examined.
12,026. You are a merchant at Bayhall, in the parish of Walls?-I
am.
12,027. How long have you been in business there?-I have been
in business in Walls for about twenty-seven years. My place of
business is in the village in the centre of the parish.
12,028. Are your customers principally of the class of fishermen
and tenants?-They are mostly fishermen and farmers. The
greater part of my business is in ready money transactions.
12,029. Are there some farmers there who do not go to the
fishing?-There are some small crofters, but they all go to the
fishing. These parties are not confined to me in the business
they do. They can go where they choose. I supply them, and
they pay me once a year.
12,030. Are you engaged in the fish-curing business yourself to
any extent?-I do not cure fish now. At one time, about twenty or
twenty-five years ago, I cured fish, and had some small vessels, but
I don't do anything in that way now at all.
12,031. You say your transactions are mostly for ready money?-
Yes, mostly.
[Page 296]
12,032. But I suppose you have some accounts when you have a
customer that you can trust?-Yes.
12,033. And with him, as you said, you settle every year?-Yes.
12,034. Are there many of these accounts in your business?-
There may be some hundreds of them; I cannot say how many.
12,035. Does not every one of your customers open an account in
that way?-Not every one; perhaps not above one-third of them.
12,036. You have an annual settlement with them?-When we
get an annual settlement, we consider that to be very good.
Sometimes it does not come up to that; but we would like it every
three months if possible.
12,037. Are many of your transactions settled by means of
barter?-Not many.
12,038. In what way is that system of barter carried on with you?
Is it by the purchase of eggs and other produce?-Yes; eggs are
looked upon as money. We make no difference upon the price of
our goods whether they are paid for in eggs or money. With regard
to hosiery, our trade is a mere nothing. I think would cover all that
I buy in the year.
12,039. Do you pay for hosiery in cash at all?-No.
12,040. I suppose the system that prevails with you is very much
the same as that which exists in Lerwick?-It is not the same as in
that town at all. The difference is, that we do not manufacture
goods to order. We merely buy them when they are offered to us,
if they please us. I don't think there is any other difference.
12,041. Is the price you fix for the hosiery generally such as to
allow you a profit upon the sale of it?-It is not; sometimes we
really pay more for it than we get.
12,042. But do you sometimes look for a profit upon it?-If we
look for a profit we don't get it out of the hosiery. If we have a
profit, it must be upon the goods that are given in exchange for it,
because we often sell hosiery below its value, according to its
value here.
12,043. But I suppose you sell it below its real value only in
consequence of some change in the market, or some
miscalculation?-Perhaps that is the case; but, in point of fact,
we don't buy hosiery as a trade. We are forced to buy it. We
don't care for that trade at all, because we always lose by it.
12,044. In fixing the price to be given for the hosiery goods, don't
you endeavour to make it at such a figure as will at least keep you
safe, and possibly allow you a small profit on the hosiery itself?-I
cannot say that we do. We are forced to take the hosiery as a
matter of business. We don't deal in that at all, so to speak.
12,045. But don't you endeavour to fix the price at such a figure as
would allow you a profit?-Of course we do, so far as we can; but
in many cases we sell the hosiery goods below what we paid for
them.
12,046. Do you sell them in Lerwick, or send them south?-We
send them to Scotland. We don't sell them in Lerwick at all.
12,047. In what other departments of your business does a barter
system prevail?-I may say that, except in eggs and hosiery, our
trade is principally for cash and we deal in barter for eggs because
we look upon them as being the same as money.
12,048. Do you give the full price for eggs?-Yes.
12,049. Do you pay for them principally in tea?-In anything the
people want. It is all the same to us. If they want cash, and we
pay a few shillings in cash, then we pay a halfpenny less per dozen
for the eggs; but that is all the difference we make otherwise we
treat them the same as cash.
12,050. Do you purchase a considerable quantity of eggs in that
way?-I cannot state the amount exactly.
12,051. Do you send a box south by every steamer?-Yes, and
sometimes more than that in the season. Perhaps we send a couple
of boxes in the season when they are being brought in.
12,052. Do you send 10 or 20 dozen?-More than that. We can
put, perhaps, from 70 to 100 dozen in a box, and we may have two
such boxes a week in the season.
12,053. And these, as a rule, are all paid for in goods?-Yes.
12,054. At what time of the year do you generally get your
accounts settled?-The fishermen settle their accounts generally
about November or December.
12,055. Is that after having settled with the fishcurers?-Yes. I
supply the men with what they want through the season until that
time, and then they settle. Most of the men who deal with me cure
their own fish, and sell them the best way they can.
12,056. Is it a common thing in your district for the fishermen to
cure their own fish?-Yes; they have liberty to do that.
12,057. To whom are the sales of these fish made?-They sell
them anywhere they choose. Sometimes they send them south, but
principally they sell them to Garriock & Co. The men are rather
confined in that way. They don't have exactly their free will to
sell them, unless merely a little.
12,058. Do you mean that they have not their free will to sell their
fish where they like?-They have that way; but where a proprietor
is dealing in fish, the men are generally expected to sell to him.
12,059. Are Messrs. Garriock & Co. factors for some of the
proprietors there?-Yes. They are factors for the estate of Dr.
Scott of Melby.
12,060. Do the men look upon themselves as being bound?-They
are not really bound. They have a little liberty.
12,061. But they think they ought to sell their fish to Garriock &
Co. rather than to another?-Yes, that is what is understood, but
they are not really bound.
12,062. In what way have you observed that feeling among the
men, that they ought to sell to Garriock & Co.? Do they
sometimes speak of it to you?-If Garriock & Co. offered them
the same price as other merchants, they consider they ought to give
them the preference; that is the only way in which I have seen it.
12,063. Would they sell to Garriock & Co. if they were offered a
less price?-I don't think they would.
12,064. They would be independent enough not to agree to that?-
I think so. But there is a confusion there. I could not enter into
explanations upon that point fully.
12,065. Why?-Because I don't think it is necessary.
12,066. But that is just the very point I want to know about. What
have you to say with regard to it?-I know that sometimes, if I
were offering the same price as Garriock & Co., I would not get
the fish from the men.
12,067. Have you tried that recently?-I have.
12,068. Were you willing to resume the business of buying fish?-
Certainly.
12,069. But the competition of Garriock & Co. was too much for
you?-Not the competition, because I offered the same price, and
perhaps even more, and could not get them.
12,070. Do you mean that Garriock & Co. had such an advantage
over you, from their position as factors and proprietors in the
district, that you could not venture to compete with them?-Yes, I
ventured, and I could not get the fish.
12,071. Was that the reason why you gave up the fish-buying
originally?-No, that was not the reason. I had some small
vessels, and they were unsuccessful, and I just dropped out from
the business.
12,072. But you think that the buying of the fish from the
fishermen might be more remunerative lately than it was
before?-I could not say about that; but the fishermen had the
liberty to cure their own fish if they had liked, and then they
sold them dry.
12,073. Was it dry fish that you proposed to purchase?-Yes. It
was dry fish that I made the offer to buy, but we would not get
them even if we had given the same price as Garriock & Co., or
more.
12,074. How long is it since you offered to buy the dry fish?-
Perhaps 4 or 5 years ago.
12,075. In what way did you make your intention known: did you
offer to certain fishermen at that time [Page 297] to take their
fish?-Yes. I have sometimes offered them to buy their fish, but I
never could get them to sell them to me.
12,075. [sic] Do you remember any particular men to whom you
made that offer?-I could not mention any particular man; but I
have offered to several crews to buy their fish, and they would not
sell them.
12,076. Do you remember what skippers you offered to?-If it is
necessary to give names, I would rather do so in private. [Hands in
the name of one skipper and crew.]
12,077. Do you remember any others?-I might mention several,
but I don't think it is necessary.
12,078. What answers did they give to your offer?-I sometimes
offered the currency, or above the currency, but that did not
matter: I could not get their fish.
12,079. Did they decline to entertain your offer?-Yes.
12,080. What did they say was their reason?-They considered
themselves as a sort of tied down to sell to one; but I know they
were not tied down, and that they could have sold their fish to any
one they chose.
12,081. But they did say to you that they were tied down?-They
did.
12,082. Was it through a fear of disobliging the factor that they
refused to sell their fish?-I suppose so. Perhaps they thought that
if they required a favour again, they might not get it so easily if
they made a change.
12,083. If the favour they expected was in the way of an advance,
would they not have got that from you?-Yes, at any time, either
in money or in goods.
12,084. What other favour could they expect from the factor?-
From the fact of Messrs. Garriock & Co. being factors, they had
more power than I had with regard to the men.
12,085. Did the men express any fear of being turned out of their
holdings?-They did not.
12,086. But that may have been in their minds?-Perhaps it might.
12,087. Did you ever hear of any influence being used by Garriock
& Co. to secure the fish of these men or of other men?-I cannot
say that they used any undue influence; but, of course, it was an
understood thing that they had the first chance, and the only
chance of them. Where Messrs. Garriock cure the fish, of course
they have the fish to themselves; but where they do not cure them,
it is considered that they shall have the first chance of buying the
fish.
12,088. Where they cure, of course, there is an engagement with
the men at the beginning of the season?-No. That was the case
about 30 years ago but it is not so now.
12,089. But in the ling fishing the crews are all engaged in the
beginning of the season?-Yes; but there is no price fixed at the
beginning of the season. About 30 years ago that was the case and
there was some more competition.
12,090. Was it the case 30 years ago that the price was fixed at
the beginning of the season?-Yes, there was a price fixed, and
sometimes agreements were written on paper for the ling fishing,
but that practice fell away. Sometimes the fishermen got above
the real value of the fish under that system.
12,091. Do you know whether that system existed only in your part
of the island?-No, it existed all over Shetland more or less unless
where the factors had control over the fishermen. At that time
every man who had his freedom could sell his fish to the best
bidder.
12,092. But he can do so still, only the price is now fixed
according to the current rate at the end of the season?-He
cannot do so exactly in every place in Shetland. The price is
not understood to be known until the fish are sold, which, I think,
makes the fishermen scarcely so persevering in fishing as they
were when they did know the price. I think when the price was
fixed at the beginning of the season, they persevered even more
than they do now.
12,093. Was that system given up before you ceased to be in the
business?-No, it continued after that. The thing which made the
price to be fixed at the beginning was, that other buyers than the
native buyers came into the market, and there was more
competition.
12,094. Was there much more competition at that time than there
is now?-In buying fish green there was more competition, but
now the competition is very little.
12,095. How do you account for that?-Where factors have the
power, it is understood that the men must fish either to the factor
or the proprietor.
12,096. Do you think the factors have more power now than they
had in those times?-I rather think they have in some cases.
12,097. In those times was it not the rule that the fishermen were
always bound to deliver the fish to the proprietor, or to some one
appointed by him?-It was.
12,098. So that, in that case, there could not be competition?-
There were several people who had the chance of buying the fish
at that time; but, of course, they could not get their summer fish.
They might get fish during the spring season in small quantities,
but that was all.
12,099. I thought you were speaking with reference to the summer
fishing, when you said that in those times there was a great deal of
competition, and that the price was fixed at the beginning of the
season?-Yes; that was the case about thirty years ago but within
the last twenty years it has fallen away.
12,100. But even at the time you speak of, were not the fishermen
very frequently bound to deliver their fish to the proprietors or
their factors, or tacksmen?-They were bound in some places, but
not so much in our part of the country as elsewhere.
12,101. The men were not so much bound in the district that
you speak of when the price was fixed at the beginning of the
season?-The price was fixed in many cases, but not in all.
12,102. Then the fish in those times were bought from the
fishermen green?-Yes.
12,103. And it was the price for green fish that was so fixed?-
Yes. The proprietor never fixed the price. It would only be fixed
by a buyer or it merchant.
12,104. Do you think it would be advantageous to return to that
practice of fixing the price at the beginning of the season for green
fish?-Where fish are bought green, I think it would.
12,105. Would it not be better for all parties if the fish were
always bought green, and cured by a professional curer?-I don't
think it would. There are some of the fishermen who can cure the
fish as well as any professional curer.
12,106. Are the fishermen in your neighbourhood generally
supplied with vats and other implements for curing fish?-Most
of them who cure for themselves have implements of their own.
They only require their supplies, such as lines, and salt, and food
from the merchant.
12,107. I suppose these independent fishermen who cure their own
fish, frequently take their lines and salt and materials for curing
from you?-They get them anywhere they choose. They have
much more liberty in that way in our parish than, I think, they have
in any part of Shetland.
12,108. Would you say that curing by the men themselves is
practised to it greater extent in your parish than anywhere else in
Shetland?-Much more. Since the men began to cure their own
fish they have got on well, and they have got much out of debt,
and become more independent.
12,109. When did they begin to cure their fish?-It is about fifteen
or sixteen years since it came to be practised to any extent; but
there are it good many of them who do not cure their own fish yet.
I should say there are about one half of them who sell their fish
green.
12,110. Do those who sell their fish green engage at the beginning
of the season with Garriock & Co.?-They sell their fish to them.
They do not have any price stated at the beginning, but are settled
with according to the current price at the end of the season.
12,111. Do you find that the men who are so engaged to sell their
fish according to the current price at the end of the season, are less
frequent customers at your [Page 298] shop than those who cure
their own fish?-Yes; that must be a consequence.
12,112. Why?-Because it is understood that their supplies must
come from the place where their goods are going. They are a sort
of bound; they are not independent; but if they were curing for
themselves, then they would have their freedom to go anywhere
they chose.
12,113. Do you mean that the men who are paid according to the
current price at the end of the season want to get their supplies on
credit?-Of course they must get their supplies on credit at the
place where they are giving the proceeds of their work.
12,114. Is there any other reason why they deal with the fish-curer
for their supplies? Does a man who has money in his hand go to
the fish-curer by preference for his supplies, as well as a man who
has not?-Some men would go there even although they had the
money, and get an advance on credit.
12,115. Do the men think it an advantage to get their supplies on
credit?-Some men do, even although they paid a higher price for
them.
12,116. And they might at the same time have money in the
bank?-Yes.
12,117. Do you think that is a common notion among the men?-
No, I don't think it is a common notion.
12,118. Are the men who act in that way men to whom you would
yourself give credit?-Yes. I have sometimes given them credit
for their supplies, such as salt and lines, and anything they wanted.
12,119. Would you consider yourself safe in giving them credit,
even if they were engaged to deliver their green fish to Messrs.
Garriock & Co.?-No. I would not like to deal with the men who
sell their green fish, because I would run the risk of not getting my
money from them.
12,120. But you say the men will take advances from the curer
during the summer, even although they are quite able to pay for
what they are getting?-Some men will do so from their natural
disposition; but, as a rule, if the skipper goes to a certain place for
his supplies, it is considered that his men must go there too.
12,121. How is that?-The skipper, of course, has some control
over his crew on shore as well as at sea.
12,122. Do you think the skipper sometimes advises or persuades
his men to go to a particular shop?-He might; I cannot say that he
would not, but that is not known to me.
12,123. Do you suppose there is any understanding that it is part of
the skipper's duty to guide his men to the right shop?-I don't
think the skipper is tempted in any way to do that. I don't know
that he derives any benefit from it. There may be a premium given
to a skipper for being the best fisher; but I don't think the skippers
are tampered with to control their crews as to the shops where they
are to deal.
12,124. Who has the appointment of the skipper?-The crew may
choose a man for themselves.
12,125. Have you noticed, as a rule, that the skippers deal at the
fish merchant's shop more commonly than the men?-No. I think
there is no difference in that way, so far as I have seen.
12,126. Then the only reason you can suggest for men who sell
their green fish dealing at the shop of the curer, is because there is
a sort of understanding among them that they shall take their
supplies there?-Yes. In fact, they would not get them anywhere
else because they could not get the money to pay for them. The
man who buys the fish has the first chance of the men's money;
while we who don't buy the fish have only a second or a third
chance of being paid. We would not care to supply men in that
way, because we don't consider ourselves safe.
12,127. But in giving supplies to the men who cure their own fish,
you think you have some security?-Certainly.
12,128. What is that security?-The men are more independent,
and if they sell their fish south, they are sure to get their money at
the time.
12,129. But you told me that these men are under some kind of
obligation to sell their fish to Garriock & Co.?-There is some
understanding of that kind, but they are not bound.
12,130. They always give them the preference?-Yes.
12,131. And you have been unable to buy their fish from them?-
Yes. Even if I were to offer a somewhat higher price, I know that I
would not get them.
12,132. If that is the state of matters with them, then you have not
much more security for your advances in their case than in the case
of the other men?-I have security. There is no fear for them.
12,133. May they not be taking supplies all the season from the
merchant's shop?-We have a good chance of knowing where
they get their supplies; and men like that, who are independent, are
not likely to run away with the money when they get paid for their
fish. They are safe enough to pay their accounts.
12,134. Then your reliance is very much on the character of the
men themselves?-Certainly.
12,135. Do you find that the men who cure their own fish are of a
more reliable character, and more to be depended upon, than the
others?-Generally they are, and they are more persevering.
12,136. I suppose Messrs. Garriock & Co. know pretty well what
men deal at your shop, and what men deal at their own?-I think
they do.
12,137. Have you ever obtained from them, or through them,
payment of any accounts that have been run up by men at your
shop?-No. I would not like to apply to them for that. I think
they would rather pay the money to the men themselves.
12,138. Do the men who deal with you upon accounts generally
keep pass-books?-Some of them do.
12,139. Do you find any irregularity or difficulty in settling their
accounts, in consequence of the want of pass-books?-I find
none; but, of course, if a man understands accounts, and keeps a
pass-book, I find it more agreeable to settle with him. The more
ignorant a man is, the more trouble you have in settling with him.
12,140. Are there any other buyers of dried fish in that district than
Garriock & Co.?-There is no other person who buys them in
large quantities.
12,141. There may be small buyers, but I suppose they don't have
much chance in the circumstances you have already described?-
No; they don't have a chance.
12,142. How do these small buyers get any fish all?-There are
very few who buy dried fish, and who have the chance of getting
much. They might get few tons in some years, but not as a regular
thing.
12,143. Is there any public-house in the parish of Walls?-No.
12,144. Or any one who has a grocer's licence?-No, there has not
been one for some years.
12,145. You don't hold a grocer's licence for the sale of spirits?-
No.
12,146. Where do people in that parish get their supplies of
liquor?-There are two licensed houses in the next parish of
Sandsting-one at Tresta, and one the Bridge of Walls, on the
Sandsting side.
12,147. Have the people to go there for all their supplies of that
kind?-Yes.
12,148. I believe they are a very temperate people?-I think they
are.
12,149. Have you ever been asked to purchase second-hand goods
in small quantities by your neighbours, by people coming from a
distance?-No.
12,150. Have you not been asked to buy small packet of tea across
the counter?-Never.
12,151. Do you know whether the people in your district
sometimes get their supplies of tea from those who have got
the tea in exchange for hosiery in Lerwick?-No; there is no
practice of that kind among us.
12,152. If it happens, it will be an exceptional thing so far as you
know?-I never knew any case of the kind.
12,153. When you were engaged in the fish business yourself,
were you ever asked to advance the rent of any fisherman from
whom you had bought fish?-I might sometimes advance money
to a fisherman to help [Page 299] him to pay his rent, but I cannot
say that I was ever pressed either by a factor or a landlord on that
point.
12,154. When you gave that advance, it was given directly to the
fisherman?-Yes, and voluntarily.
12,155. Do you ever make money advances now for that purpose,
or for any other purpose, to your customers who have accounts
with you?-I have not done so within the last two or three years;
in fact, most of the men don't need it; they can get on without it.
12,156. The accounts incurred to you, and which are settled for at
the end of the year, are paid in cash, I suppose, for the most
part?-Yes, in cash.
12,157. The only things you get in part payment, and which are
entered on the other side of the account, are eggs and sometimes
butter?-There is not much butter. The greater part of my trade is
done in cash.
12,158. But eggs and hosiery may sometimes be entered in the
account?-Not much hosiery. I don't do much in that way.
12,159. You said it might amount to £50, but the transactions, I
suppose, are settled at the time?-Yes. In some years I do not do
the half of that, but would cover my transactions in that way in any
year. I remember some years ago buying three or four times as
much, but now the knitters all go to Lerwick with their work.
12,160. What hosiery you do buy is all settled for at the time?-
Yes, it is paid right off there and then. The articles are offered to
us, and if we are satisfied with the quality and the price we take
them, the same as in any other money transaction.
12,161. Do the accounts which you settle at November or
December generally amount to some pounds apiece?-Yes;
with those fishermen to whom we have advanced.
12,162. Are these accounts generally paid in cash which the men
have got from Messrs. Garriock & Co. for the sale of their fish to
them?-Yes.
12,163. I suppose you take good care to bring as many of your
accounts as possible to settlement immediately after the settling
time with Garriock & Co.?-Yes; that is our usual practice.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN TWATT, examined.
12,164. You are a merchant at Voe, in the parish of Walls?-I am.
12,165. How far is that from Bayhall?-About five minutes' walk.
12,166. Have you heard the evidence of Mr. Georgeson?-I have.
12,167. Is your business much of the same description as his?-
It is exactly the same. There is no difference between them
whatever.
12,168. It is conducted with the same class of customers?-
Exactly.
12,169. Are your settlements made at the same season?-Yes.
12,170. Have you ever been in the fish-curing business yourself?-
Yes. For the last two years I have done little in the winter season.
I get no fish in summer.
12,171. Do you buy the fish green?-Yes; in winter.
12,172. Are you ready to buy them cured if you could get them?-
Yes. I have often offered for fish, but I never could get them. I
have made the offer publicly to all the boats.
12,173. In what way did you intimate that offer publicly?-I just
said to the men that I would buy their fish, and give as high a price
for them as another. I have said that if I did not give them 10s.
more, I would not give them 10s. less; but I could not get them.
12,174. What did they say?-They said nothing, but they never
gave me the fish.
12,175. Did you mean by the offer you made to them that you
would give them a price fixed at the beginning of the season?-
No; I could not fix a price then. I meant that I would give them
as much as any other fish-buyer who was in the trade.
12,176. Did you mean that you would give them that price at the
end of the season when they delivered their cured fish?-yes.
12,177. Did you make a special offer to any particular crews?-I
have said to some of the men to tell their skippers what I had
offered. The skipper was not in at the time, but I told one of the
men that I would give him 10s. more than any other one if he
would give me his fish.
12,178. Have you reason to believe that the man carried your
message to the skipper?-Yes; I know he did carry it.
12,179. Did you get any answer to it?-No.
12,180. Then how did you know that the man had carried your
message to the skipper?-Because I asked the skipper afterwards
about it; and he said he had been engaged at the beginning of the
season to deliver his fish to another party.
12,181. Were these fish to be cured by himself?-Yes.
12,182. Are contracts made so early as that with men who cure
their own fish?-In some cases they are.
12,183. Was the other party in this case Messrs. Garriock &
Co.?-I don't think it was. I would rather mention the name
privately. [Hands in the name of a fish-curing firm.]
12,184. Are these gentlemen you have named extensive purchasers
of cured fish in your district?-I believe they would buy all they
could get.
12,185. Perhaps they have the same difficulty which you
experience in buying fish?-I suppose they have.
12,186. Do you carry on any business with men who are engaged
to fish in the ling fishing for Messrs. Garriock & Co.?-Yes. I
supply the crews with what they require for the fishing, such as
lines, and hooks, and tar.
12,187. Are they not expected to take their supplies from the shop
of the merchant with whom they engage?-Sometimes it is much
handier for them to get them from me than to go to Reawick for
them; and when I know the crew will pay me, I supply them to
them.
12,188. Your shop is at a great distance from Reawick, or any of
the larger fishing stations?-Yes.
12,189. Do you make these supplies to the men to a large
extent?-No, not to a large extent; only to a few boats. It is
only to the crews that I make these supplies, because the
company accounts are paid first at the time of settlement, and
I look to the skipper to see that I am paid.
12,190. Then a company account of that kind is a safer thing than
an account with one of the men?-Yes.
12,191. Do the fishermen themselves, as individuals, get supplies
from you on credit while they are engaged in the ling fishing?-
Yes.
12,192. Do they not go more frequently to Reawick, or to Messrs.
Garriock & Co.'s other stores, for supplies?-Yes. There are
certain parties that I won't give them to.
12,193. Do you furnish the principal part of the supplies to those
men in your neighbourhood who fish for Garriock & Co.?-No.
Garriock & Co. do that themselves. It is only when they cannot
get over to Garriock a Co.'s stores, or when Garriock & Co. might
be out of any article they want, or something like that, that they
come to me. They only come to me for what they want when they
cannot do better.
12,194. Is it the case that some of them come to you for supplies
because Reawick is so far away?-Sometimes that is the case in
the busy season. When the fishing is going on they are glad to go
to the nearest place, and get a few lines or hooks, or what they
want but when they do go to Reawick they take as much from
there as possible.
12,195. Are they expected to do so?-I rather think they are.
12,196. Do you understand that from the men themselves, or is it
merely your own inference from the way in which they act?-It is
my own opinion.
[Page 300]
12,197. Have you heard anything from the men which has
confirmed that opinion?-No, I could not say that I have.
12,198. Do you find that the connection of the fishermen with a
large company of that kind, which buys their fish, and which acts
as factor upon the estates where the fishermen live, interferes with
the extension of your own business?-I cannot say that it does.
12,199. Have you not told me already that you have not been able
to buy fish from the men, although you wanted to do so?-Yes; it
interferes with me in that way, so that I cannot get the fish.
12,200. But you don't suppose the men would deal at your shop, in
preference to the shop of the merchant who employs them, even
although they could do so?-If they were fishing to me, I believe
they would deal with me the same as with any other one. I cannot
quite agree with what Mr. Georgeson said about that. I think there
is a little bribe which the skippers get for seeing that the men go to
the shop. I think it is an understood thing between the skipper and
the fishbuyer, that he (the skipper) is to get something extra.
12,201. Does not the skipper usually get a fee?-No; he is
generally supposed to get the same as the men, but I rather
think he gets a little more.
12,202. You say that that serves as a bribe: for what purpose?-I
leave that to you.
12,203. Do you suppose it has the effect of making him influence
the men to take their supplies from the merchant's shop?-I leave
that to you to judge.
12,204. Do you suppose that the skipper, in general, does guide his
men in that direction?-I rather think he does in some cases.
12,205. Have you known any special instance that you could point
to, where that was done?-There was one boat's crew with whom
I was settling for a small company account. I asked them why they
did not give me their fish as we were next-door neighbours, or
something like that; and the men all got up against the skipper, and
said they were quite willing to give me their fish, only that the
skipper had gone away and made an agreement for them before.
12,206. That was for the sale of their fish?-Yes, for the sale of
the dry fish. I would have bought them at the same price as
Garriock & Co, or any other one.
12,207. But that was not a case in which the men were induced to
go for supplies to the fish-curer?-They did not require to go there
for their supplies unless they had liked, because they could have
got their supplies from me if they had said they would give me
their fish at the end of the season. If they had done that I was
willing to supply them with money, or meal, or anything they
wanted.
12,208. These were men who were curing their own fish?-Yes.
12,209. But have you known any cases in which men who were
engaged to fish during the whole season, and to deliver their fish
green to Garriock & Co., were induced by the skipper to go to
Reawick for their supplies?-I cannot say that I have.
12,210. Is it not the fact that men who live near you do go to
Reawick for supplies although it is much farther away?-Yes.
12,211. And although it is inconvenient?-Yes, it is inconvenient.
They could do much better by coming to my shop, which is next
door to them, and they could get as good articles at the same price
as they can at Reawick.
12,212. How far is it from your place to Reawick?-I think it is
about 10 or 12 miles.
12,213. When the men go there for meal or other supplies, are
these supplies brought across the country?-Sometimes they are
brought by boats and sometimes round by the rocks.
12,214. When a crew cure their own fish, is it the rule that the sale
must be of the whole catch of the boat, or can each man sell his
fish separately?-No, they must all be sold together; and they
generally go to the place where the skipper or the majority of the
men want them to go.
12,215. Do you think the skipper has a considerable influence in
that matter?-I think he has.
12,216. Of course, where the men are fishing independently, and
curing their own fish, there is no arrangement with the merchant
for the skipper's fee?-No; that is an understood thing between
the skipper and the fish-buyer, and I don't think the men know
anything at all about it. There is no fee at the ling fishing, and the
men can go to whom they please. They are different there from
what they are in the Faroe fishing.
12,217. Do you buy any hosiery?-I buy it little, and I pay for it in
the same way which Mr. Georgeson explained. It is all done by
barter.
12,218. Do you also pay for eggs and butter by goods?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, JOHN JOHNSTON, examined.
12,219. You are a merchant at Bridge of Walls, in Sandsting?-I
am.
12,220. You are a son of Mr. George Johnston, merchant at
Tresta?-Yes.
12,221. Is that in the same parish, but at some distance from your
place?-Yes; I think it is about eight miles away.
12,222. Your father is in delicate health, and has not been able to
come to-day?-Yes. He has not been able to come in consequence
of the rough day.
12,223. Were you concerned in his business before you set up
business on your own account?-Yes.
12,224. You are acquainted with his business at Tresta as well as
with your own?-Yes.
12,225. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr.
Georgeson to-day?-Yes.
12,226. Is your business and that of your father similar in character
to Mr. Georgeson's?-Yes, it is just the same only we have a spirit
licence in addition. My father has a public-house licence, and I
have a grocer's licence.
12,227. Then you supply what spirits may be wanted in the
parishes of Walls and Sandsting?-Yes. I suppose we supply
the principal part of them; but the people may go to Lerwick or
any other place for them if they choose.
12,228. Your dealings in that way, I suppose, are always settled for
in cash?-Yes, always in cash.
12,229. Is the bulk of your other transactions paid for in cash
too?-No; there is a good deal of credit given.
12,230. To what class of customers do you give credit?-To the
fishermen.
12,231. Have you any fishermen who are employed in your own
boats?-We have no boats fishing to us.
12,232. Do you buy cured fish or green fish from the fishermen?-
No, we don't buy any. My father has one vessel of his own that
goes to the Faroe fishing. He had three about five or six years ago.
12,233. Where do you get the men for these Faroe vessels?-They
are very much scattered. Sometimes, we get part from Walls, and
sometimes part from Sandsting.
12,234. Do these men take supplies for themselves and their
families during the summer from your father's shops?-Yes.
12,235. And they have an account which is settled at the end of the
fishing season?-Yes.
12,236. Do you buy no fish at all?-No. My father has an interest
in two boats that fish on the home banks off Shetland. That is the
cod fishing; they don't go to the Faroe fishing. They are smacks,
but they are small.
12,237. That bank is between Shetland and Orkney?-Yes.
12,238. Exclusive of the men who are engaged in the Faroe
fishing, have you or your father many accounts with fishermen
living in the district?-Not very [Page 301] many. We have some,
but they are principally with men who go south, and we supply
their families during the time they are away. They go principally
to Liverpool, and sometimes to Greenock, and enter the merchant
service. They remain away for a year or two, and then come home
for a winter.
12,239. Do these men send allotment notes home to their wives?-
Not often. They generally remit money home at the end of the
voyage.
12,240. Then you have no security at all for your advances, except
the personal credit of the men?-None at all.
12,241. There may be some stock on their farms occasionally?-
Of course they have a little.
12,242. Have you any accounts with fishermen on the ling fishing
at home?-Not many. There is no ling fishing carried on close to
where I live.
12,243. But a few of your neighbours are engaged in it?-No. I
think there are none of them engaged in it.
12,244. Is it the same with your father's place?-Yes; there is no
ling fishing there at all.
12,245. Have you any accounts with fishermen engaged in the
Faroe fishing for other merchants than yourselves?-We have
some, but not many.
12,246. I suppose these Faroe men generally open accounts with
the merchants in whose smacks they are engaged?-Yes,
generally.
12,247. Have you anything to say in addition to what was stated by
Mr. Georgeson and Mr. Twatt in their evidence?-The only thing I
would like to say is, that I think all the men have complete liberty
to engage anywhere they choose, or to go to the fishing or south as
they like. I don't think any compulsion is used.
12,248. I don't think any of the previous witnesses said there
was any compulsion in that way. Have you ever endeavoured to
purchase cured fish?-No.
12,249. Why? Did you never think of it?-No.
12,250. Was that because you considered you would have no
chance of getting the fish to buy?-I could hardly say that; but I
never thought much about it.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ARCHIBALD ABERNETHY, examined.
12,251. Are you a shopkeeper at Whiteness, in the parish of
Tingwall?-I am.
12,252. In what goods do you deal?-Principally in eggs and
butter.
12,253. Do you deal in groceries and a little in soft goods?-Yes.
12,254. Do you pay for eggs and butter generally in goods?-Yes,
generally; but I very often pay money for eggs too.
12,255. Do you make a difference on the price, according as they
are paid for in money or in goods?-Yes; there is a difference of
1/2d. per dozen, as a general rule.
12,256. Have you ever bought fish?-Yes, a little.
12,257. Do you buy them dry or green?-I buy them green, and
cure them myself.
12,258. Do you own any boats?-No. Occasionally I may hire a
boat and a crew for a month or two about this season of the year
for the spring fishing, before they go to Faroe.
12,259. Do you fix the price of your fish at the time they are
delivered, or do you settle with the men for them according to the
price at the end of the season?-They will scarcely agree to fix a
price at the time they are delivered, in case the price of fish may
rise during the year, and then they expect to get a better price for
them. They prefer to wait until the fish go to the market, and then
they know what the price is.
12,260. Is that what is done when you buy the fish green?-Yes.
12,261. In that case, you settle with them according to the current
price at the end of the year?-Yes. I generally guarantee to give
them that price.
12,262. I thought you said you had only one boat for a short time
at this season?-I sometimes have one or two boats for a short
time at this season, and that is generally the agreement I make with
them.
12,263. Don't you buy the fish promiscuously, as it were, from any
man who comes and offers them to you?-Yes.
12,264. Do you do that only in the winter and spring, or also in
the summer?-It is only in the winter and spring that I have the
chance of doing it. There are scarcely any fish got in our quarter
in the summer time, because the fishermen are generally engaged
in the Faroe fishing then.
12,265. Are none of them engaged in the ling fishing?-None at
all.
12,266. Do you keep accounts for supplies that you make to
fishermen?-Yes, a few.
12,267. Are these men engaged in the Faroe or the ling fishing?-
Principally in the Faroe fishing.
12,268. Do any of these men get their whole supplies from you?-
None of them. I think they are generally supplied from the shops
of the owners of the vessels they are in.
12,269. Do they get the most of their supplies from there?-I think
so.
12,270. Do these men live near your shop, or are they living at a
distance from you?-They live pretty near me. Some of them are
near neighbours, and others live about three or four miles away.
12,271. How many men of that kind may there be who deal
occasionally with you, but who get the bulk of their supplies from
the parties for whom they are fishing?-I should fancy there may
be about forty or fifty of them.
12,272. Have most of these men got accounts?-Generally they
have, but not to a great extent; perhaps for a few shillings.
12,273. You understand they are supplied chiefly by the merchant
for whom they ship?-Yes, generally.
12,274. Would it not be more convenient for them to get their
supplies nearer their own homes?-I don't know that it would
make much difference. It is not very far from our place to
Lerwick. I think it is only about eight or nine miles, and the
people generally are in the town every now and again with
hosiery and things of that kind.
12,275. Who are the merchants with whom most of the men
engage for the Faroe fishing?-I think the principal parties are
Mr. Leask, and Messrs. Hay & and Messrs. Harrison & Sons.
12,276. Do the people generally carry home their meal and
provisions from Lerwick when they buy meal there?-A good
deal of it comes in that way; but it is a very common thing, when
the men are going to Faroe, for them to bring the smack round to
Whiteness and leave a boll or two of meal at their houses there
before they go away.
12,277. What prices do you pay for the fish caught in spring and
winter?-From 6s. 6d. to 7s. We are paying 7s. just now for cod.
There are very few ling caught.
12,278 What is the price for the small fish?-It is 4s. 6d. for the
smallest and then there are different prices from that upwards until
we come to the big size.
12,279. What quantity of fish will you get in that way from a
boat's crew in the course of a winter and spring?-I really don't
know. I don't get them all. They may come to me with a few
cwts. perhaps, and perhaps go to Scalloway or anywhere else with
the rest. They are quite at liberty during the winter, so far as I
know, to go anywhere they like where they can get the best price.
When they come to me they generally take what goods they want,
and if there is a balance over they usually get it in cash.
12,280. When they come with fish in that way, I suppose you
generally ask them what they want after fixing the price?-They
know the price before they come with them, and they generally
want some things out of the shop. If they do not, then they get the
cash.
[Page 302]
12,281. Do you weigh the fish?-Yes, we weigh them in presence
of the men.
12,282. Is not the first thing you do after that to see what goods
the people want?-Very seldom. I just ask them if they are
wanting any goods, and then they buy them; but they sometimes
take the whole price in money, and sometimes they settle previous
accounts with fish which they bring in that way. In winter that is
generally the way in which they settle their accounts with me.
12,283. Are the accounts which the men run up in summer
generally settled by the sale of their winter fish?-Yes; that is
the way in which the thing is done in our quarter.
12,284. How many tons of dry fish would you be able to sell from
that kind of trade?-Perhaps three or four tons, or the like of that.
It is not carried on to any great extent.
12,285. Do you sell these fish at what is called the current
price?-No; I just take my chance. I get them dried perhaps
in April or May, and send them south.
12,286. Can you sell them earlier than the large fish sales of the
year?-Yes. The spring fish are all dry by April or May.
12,287. Is the price of cured fish generally higher early in the
season than it is in September, when the large sales take place?-I
don't know; the price is very fluctuating.
12,288. Are you aware that the current price this year for ling was
£23 per ton?-Yes; but I am not aware of that price having been
paid for any of the small fish such as I am speaking of.
12,289. What did you manage to sell your fish for last year?-I
sent them principally to Leith, and I got about £16 per ton for them
on an average, after deducting expenses. I do not know the price
at which the fish were actually sold, but that is what I realized. I
sent them to an agent in Leith, and that was my return.
12,290. Do you suppose that any of the men that you bought fish
from would get as much as £5 from you in the course of the winter
and spring for their fish?-I don't think they would.
12,291. Might one crew get as much as that?-Yes, more than
that; or if they were going to the spring fishing also, they would
get perhaps £4 or £5 each man for the big cod. I paid more than
that per man last year, when they had been both at the winter and
spring fishing.
12,292. I suppose most of that would be settled for by the men
taking the goods?-No; I think three-fourths of it would be settled
for in cash. That would not be so in every case; but in some cases
more than three-fourths would be paid in cash.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, LEWIS F.U. GARRIOCK, examined.
12,293. You are a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co., general
merchants and fish-curers at Reawick?-I am.
12,294. You have prepared a statement which you wish to appear
as part of your evidence?-Yes.
12,295. Is that statement correct?-It is, to the best of my
knowledge.
[The witness then handed in the following statement:-]
'I am a partner of the firm of Garriock & Co. general
merchants and fish-curers at Reawick.
'Mr. Umphray, the senior of the firm, and myself, are
proprietors of land. Mr. Umphray, my younger brother,
and I, are joint factors on the estate of Dr. Scott of Melby.
'I am trustee for the proprietors of the Burra Isles.
'Our general store for all sorts of goods is at Reawick. We have,
besides, two small shops or general stores, one in the Island
of Foula where there are about forty families, and the other at
Sandness, where there are about seventy-five families.
'We engage our fishermen and servants from the district of
country comprising the parishes of Weisdale, Aithsting, Sandsting,
Walls, Sandness, and Foula, with a few from districts beyond
Tingwall, Burra, etc.
'We cured last season the fish from ten smacks fishing at
Faroe, Iceland, etc., and five smaller vessels prosecuting the
fishing in the neighbourhood of our own and the Orkney Islands.
There are other owners interested in some of these vessels, but we
engaged the crews on shares; and at the end of the season, when
the value of the fish was realized, we accounted with owners and
men for their proportions. The gross
value will be about . . . £4600 0 0
The cost of bait,
salt-curing, etc., . . £650 0 0
The cost of biscuit, coals
on owners' account, 250 0 0
Proportion paid crew
individually, . . 2200 0 0
Proportion paid owners, 1500 0 0
£4600 0 0
'The fishermen's proportion is paid to each of them in cash,
under deduction of any provisions and articles of clothing for
themselves, and provisions, etc., supplied to their families during
the season, so far as they have supplied themselves from us; but
they are under no obligation to take such advance from us and can,
if they choose buy their articles from any shopkeeper, either for
cash (which many of them have spare) or on credit. A few of the
men can do without advances, having spare money; but the fishing
could not be carried on if we were not to supply them, especially
as regards the lads in their first and second year.
'In years when the fishing is not remunerative merchants
making those advances lose heavily in bad debts.
'I have gone carefully over the accounts with the crews of two
smacks, and produce an abstract of the men's accounts, which
shows that, as respects one of them in 1870, we accounted to them
for £427,19s. 2d., of which they had from us for lines, hooks, and
provisions on board, £71, 7s. 9d.; clothing, and supplies of meal,
etc., to their families, £114, 14s. 5d.; and in cash, £239, 17s. The
other crew, in 1870, had, in lines, hooks, and provisions, £81, 7s.
11d.; goods, £129, 0s. 8d.; and in cash, £374, 13s. 6d. The same
crew, in 1871, in lines, provisions, etc., £63, 3s. 4d.; goods, £67,
7s.; cash, £198, 9s. 7d. Looking at the last two years as regards
our fishermen in smacks, it appears they have had considerably
more than half their gross shares paid them in cash.
'We would, as merchants, greatly prefer a cash system, payment
being made upon the fish being delivered, the same as we do to
English smacks fishing for us at it contract price-and we derive
about one-third of our cure from this source. But I believe were
such a mode attempted it would lead to fixed wages, and would
end in loss to both men and owners, and a great falling off
in this branch of the fishery.
'BOATS.-About one-fourth of our cure last year was from open
boats-six-oared boats at far haaf, and four-oared boats at home
haaf. About 63 tons of these are from crews who cure their own
fish, and deliver at one time, at the end of the curing season. The
remaining 71 tons are delivered fresh every day, as landed at
our stations. Those who cure their own fish, whether they have
advances of salt, meal, etc., from us or not, are at perfect liberty to
treat with and sell to any merchant they can get the best price from
when their fish are ready. Their boats and gear are all their own.
The understanding about those delivered fresh is, that we pay not
less than the current rate of the country. These men, as well as the
others, own their boats and gear. The peculiarities of their
situation make this mode of delivering in a fresh state a necessity.
At two of the stations we receive from in that way; and we prefer
it, although the fish should [Page 303] cost us higher than those
cured by the men themselves, as we can make a much better
article, having skilled men and better appliances. To show that
our boat fishers do see more than a pound at settlement, I take the
liberty to hand you herewith an abstract of my settlement last and
previous month with the men at two stations in Walls, by which it
appears that 36 men employed at far haaf, and 34 men at home
haaf, had value in fish, £829, 19s. 1d. Our supplies in boats, lines,
salt, meal, and other goods, was £29, 0s. 81/2d.; and I paid them in
cash £600, 18s. 41/2d. I have not access to some of the station
books; but, from an abstract of my last year's settlement at one of
these stations, there was placed to credit of the men for fish, work,
curing, etc., £655, 0s. 6d., which was thus disposed of:
'1st. To account of arrears of advances
of meal, etc., from previous years, £71 12 7
'2d. Fishing material, meal, goods, and
cash from storekeeper during year, 270 7 2
'3d. Cash at settlement, 313 0 9
'It is not always so; this same island for three years, 1867-69,
suffered severely from the crops being blasted, and the fishing of
1868 proving a failure (each fisherman's earnings for the whole
year only amounting to about £3). We supplied them with meal
during these years, at the end of which they were due us £228, 19s.
9d., besides some arrears of rent to Dr. Scott. All this is now
cleared off, unless some three or four individuals; and the more
provident have a good few pounds saved.
'In settling with our men, the whole crew, both as respects smacks
and boats, are brought in together, and the statement of the
division is gone over carefully. Afterwards each man comes
separately, and every item of his account read over, or if a
pass-book is kept (which is very common) it is made up. Copies
of the account are given in every case when desired. I think our
men are perfectly satisfied with the present system.
'The tenants on the Melby estate are perfectly free to earn their
living as they choose; and it is the same as regards Mr. Umphray's
tenants (who number 75) and my own. On going over the roll of
Mr. Umphray's tenants, I observe there are only 17 fishing to my
firm (some of them only part of the season), and of my tenants
only 4.
'It is the exception, not the rule, for our fishermen to be in debt
to us. Of the 70 men representing the sixteen crews of which I
have given particulars, all had money to get, with the exception of
six, who are due us balances to the amount of £33, 2s.
'We employed last year 40 beach boys, from 13 to 17 years of
age. All had cash to get at settlement, and none are in advance
on the coming season.
'HOSIERY.-We take hosiery in barter for any sort of goods
required, including meal and provisions. We have found this
branch of trade uniformly a losing one but it is convenient for our
customers-families who occupy their spare time from farm work
in knitting plain articles-to get such exchanged; and it would put
them much about if we were to give it up, being so far from
Lerwick, and the neighbouring country shops only taking such
things as they have an outlet for. A good many of the girls go to
town, perhaps once in the year, with their hosiery.
'EGGS.-We take in eggs in the same way, but pay cash readily
when asked.
'We have only one price in our stores for goods, whether sold
for cash or barter.
'My firm has no separate account for the wife, and with other
members of the family, unless when such are working or fishing
for themselves.'
12,296. You say in your statement that Mr. Umphray and yourself
are proprietors of land: is that in the district in which your business
is carried on?-Mr. Umphray is a proprietor of land there. His
rental is somewhere between £300 and £400, and the number of
his tenants is between 70 and 80.
12,297. What is the rental and the number of tenants on the Melby
estate?-The rental is about £1200, and there are nearly 300
tenants; but I cannot give the exact number.
12,298. Do most of the tenants on these estates fish for you in
summer?-There are more of them who fish for us than for any
other.
12,299. Do you think all who are engaged in the ling fishing fish
for you?-By no means; but I should say that fully three-fourths of
them do.
12,300. You say in your statement that you are trustee for the
proprietors of the Burra Isles: are they the Misses Scott of
Scalloway?-Yes. Mrs. Spence and Miss Scott.
12,301. Are you aware that some complaints were made by the
inhabitants of the Burra Isles, a few years ago, to the agent for the
proprietors in Edinburgh?-Yes, there was a letter sent to him.
12,302. In consequence of these complaints, did you make an
investigation and report?-Yes; I went to the island to inquire into
the matter. The prayer of the petition was, that the proprietors
should be more careful, when another lease was given, not to
allow certain things which the tenants complained of to be inserted
in it.
12,303. At that time was a new lease in contemplation?-No;
there were two or three years to run of the old lease.
12,304. Was the lease of Burra, under which the islands were then
held by Messrs. Hay, granted during your management?-No; it
had been granted some years before.
12,305. A copy of the letter to Mr. Mack which occasioned the
inquiry, was sent to you at the time?-Yes.
12,306. The first complaint in that letter was, 'That every
householder is bound to pay £1 sterling annually for every son
who, being a common fisherman, ships in any Faroe-going fishing
smack, not belonging to the lessees or the agent of the North Sea
Co.; otherwise he must remove from the island, or expel any such
son from his home.' I have not seen the lease in question, but did
you find that that was a well-founded complaint?-There was
nothing of the kind stated in the lease. My understanding of the
complaint is, that when the lease was taken by Messrs. Hay, they
entered into an arrangement with the tenants with regard to the
terms on which they were to occupy under them.
12,307. Did you ascertain whether any such stipulation had been
entered into between Messrs. Hay and the tenants?-I investigated
the matter upon the spot, but I could not find any case where the
money had been paid.
12,308. In what year did you make the investigation?-In 1869.
12,309. Did you find any case in which the money had been
demanded?-I did not find any; but I understand that Messrs.
Hay had sent round or had handed to each of the tenants the terms
of the engagement under which they were to occupy, and that
there was something about it in that. I did not see it myself; but I
understood they were either to fish to Messrs. Hay, or to have
liberty to fish elsewhere if they chose on payment of £1. That was
the rule that had been laid down by Messrs. Hay; but I could not
trace any case in which the money had been paid.
12,310. Have you any objection to state the name of the party who
wrote the letter to Mr. Mack which you now hold in your hand?-I
believe it was a private communication, and I would rather not
mention the name. The writer says, 'Having fulfilled my promise
to write you, I have to express the hope that this confidential
communication may receive your kind consideration.' I don't
know that it is of much importance who wrote the letter; but I may
mention that he was a minister who was in the habit of visiting the
island, and to whom some of the people had made complaints. It
became very clear to me, from my investigation, that the case had
been very much overstated. I got particulars of the prices paid to
the men for several years, and I made inquiry at other places in the
neighbourhood about the prices, and I could not find that they had
any cause of complaint about the prices paid to them for their fish.
[Page 304]
12,311. Did you find the statement to be correct which is
contained in the third head of the letter: 'The price given is
never less than 1s. per cwt. below the average paid for green fish
in the islands; and in the case of herring, not less than 5s. per cran
below the market price is a common thing'?-There was no
foundation for that statement whatever. I found the Burra people
were getting fully as much as any other fishermen.
12,312. Did you ascertain that from an examination of the books
of Messrs. Hay & Co, or from statements made by the people
themselves?-I ascertained the prices paid to the men from
Messrs. Hay & Co.'s books, and on comparing it with the prices
paid in other localities, I found that that was an unfounded
statement altogether.
12,313. Did you find that the fourth complaint, about oysters
being underpaid, was correct?-I found that in that very season
the men were selling their oysters where they liked. There was no
restriction at all at that time. There had been before. I believe
Messrs. Hay had endeavoured to prevent anybody from coming in
and dredging upon the oyster beds that lay between the islands,
and to get the people to deliver the oysters to them; but they had
given up that before that time and allowed them to sell them where
they chose.
12,314. I suppose the result of there being no restriction is that the
oyster beds are nearly exhausted?-They are almost entirely
exhausted. In the course of two seasons they were all taken up.
12,315. Did you ascertain whether a regular system of deception
had been practised in order to evade the obligation to deliver to
Messrs. Hay, while the restriction existed about the oysters?-I did
not find that there was a regular system of deception, because, at
the time when I made my inquiry, any oysters which the men
dredged were sold where they pleased. Messrs. Hay found out,
that unless they had an Act of Parliament, they did not have the
power of hindering the men from selling where they chose. That
oyster bed had been held by the proprietor almost exclusively as
his own property, and for generations it was dealt with as such.
Messrs. Hay & Co. came into the proprietor's place and I daresay
they very naturally supposed that they had the same right; but on
the men insisting on selling where they chose, they found they
could not prevent them.
12,316. Did you find that at the time when it was supposed Messrs.
Hay had that power, a system of deception had prevailed, as is
alleged in this letter, in order to evade the supposed obligation?-
That is one way of putting it; but I should suppose that before the
matter was determined as to the right of the people to sell oysters
where they chose, they had been in the habit of quietly going to
other parties with the oysters, that Messrs. Hay should not know.
12,317. Then I suppose that, so far as it went, that complaint
was not very far from the truth?-It was perfectly untrue. The
statement made in the complaint was that Messrs. Hay only gave
1s. per 100, and that that was paid in goods, while the men could
get 2s. 6d. elsewhere. I found that to be utterly untrue.
12,318. Was it the case that Messrs. Hay paid a larger price
than was stated, or that the higher price could not be obtained
elsewhere?-Oysters had been selling years before as low as 1s.
per 100; but Messrs. Hay were paying the same price as other
people at that time. I think 2s. 6d. was the price in 1869.
12,319. Were Messrs. Hay paying that price then?-They were
paying the same as Mr. Harcus who is still a buyer.
12,320. Was he the only other buyer?-No. I believe Mr.
Nicholson and Mr. Tait also purchased about that time.
12,321. But the previous time, when the oysters were selling for
1s. per 100, was before the date of your inquiry?-Yes, it must
have been some time before.
12,322. Could a larger price have been got elsewhere than from
Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I don't know. I know that oysters were not
so dear at that time as they became afterwards; but at the time
when Messrs. Hay & Co. were the only parties buying oysters, they
got very few. They were not fished to any great extent.
12,323. Did you find that the fifth complaint, that every person
on the island selling any article to a neighbour was liable to
expulsion, had any foundation?-It had a foundation to this extent,
that Messrs. Hay did not allow anybody to set up a shop in the
island; but it was nonsense to say that people were not allowed to
sell any article to a neighbour, such as fish or any of their produce.
12,324. A resident clergyman or schoolmaster might have got fish
for his table if he wanted them?-Yes, or any article of produce
that the people had. The complaint was only true so far that the
people were not allowed to set up retail shops in the island.
12,325. Was there any prohibition on selling tea?-That is what I
refer to.
12,326. Even if they had no shop, was not one neighbour
prevented from selling a 1/2 lb. or 1/4 lb. of tea to another?-I
am not aware that Messrs. Hay ever looked into the matter so
closely as that.
12,327. But was not that the substance of their complaint?-Of
course, if anybody had set up a tea-shop, that would have been
objected to. But this complaint refers to the practice of getting tea
and other goods from merchants in exchange for hosiery; and it
goes on to say, that if a woman exchanged that for anything she
wanted, she exposed her family to the loss of house and land, and
expulsion from the island, if she was known to sell any of the
goods she had received in return for her handiwork to any
neighbour.
12,328. Did you hear of any person being expelled for that?-No,
nor threatened. They told me that several of them would have
had tea and various other things in the island for selling to their
neighbours, if they had been allowed, but that they were prevented
from doing so, and I approved of that.
12,329. Did you find that the people were in a state of nervous
apprehension about expulsion?-Not in the least.
12,330. Then how do you account for this letter, and for these
charges being made, if they were not in a state of anxiety and
nervousness about the matter?-I think the case was put much
more strongly in the letter than it had been put to the writer of
the letter by the people themselves.
12,331. You don't think that the people of Shetland or the
inhabitants of Burra are liable to panics of that kind?-There
was no panic that I was aware of at that time. Some of the people,
when I read over the letter to them, were very much amused to
hear what had been said, and they attributed the statements to two
or three persons who were usually dissatisfied with their condition.
12,332. Is it within your knowledge whether the Burra people were
in the habit for a series of years of carrying over their oysters to
Lerwick, and retailing them there openly?-Yes. I have often met
them carrying oysters to Lerwick in kishies for the purpose of
selling them there.
12,333. You are acquainted with that from the fact that you then
resided in Scalloway?-Yes, and from coming and going and
meeting the people.
12,334. Did you find existing in Burra, at that time, feeling of
bondage most unfavourable in its influence towards the lessees
themselves, and most pernicious in its influence over the tenants
under them?-I could not say that there was anything of that sort.
I found that the people would much rather not have been under a
lessee at all, but have been allowed each to fish for himself.
12,335. Did they wish to fish and cure for themselves?-Some of
them would have liked that, but I found from the best fishermen
that they would not have considered that to be any advantage for
the island on the whole.
12,336. What reason did they assign for their objection to being
under a lessee?-Just that they were under certain restrictions as to
the ling fishing; and naturally a man would prefer to be altogether
free, and to be able to deal as he chose.
[Page 305]
12,337. Did you think these restrictions were such that the people
might reasonably complain of them?-I thought they had not
much to complain of.
12,338. At that time the lease of Messrs. Hay & Co. was within a
year or two of its termination?-Yes. I think it was the last year of
it.
12,339. The letter was dated 5th April 1869, and think the lease
expired in November following. Has it been renewed since?-No.
The tack has been continued on the old plan for two years, as a
sort of intermediate arrangement. There is just a missive which
expires in November next. Indeed I had some difficulty in getting
Messrs. Hay to renew the arrangement, even for two years.
12,340. Were they unwilling to resume their liability for the rents
upon the same terms?-Yes. The reason they gave to me was, that
the great bulk of the people were fishing where they chose, and
that they did not have much profit by the island.
12,341. Do you mean in the ling fishing, or in the Faroe fishing?-
I mean in the fishings generally. There were only a few old men
remaining at home for the fishings, and it was not a great deal of
the produce of the island that they had anything to do with.
12,342. Do Messrs. Hay pay the tack duty annually or half-yearly
to the proprietors?-Half-yearly.
12,343. The tenants, I suppose, as is usual in Shetland, pay only
once a year?-Yes, they pay in November.
12,344. If the proprietors were taking the ground into their
own hands, is it probable they would require the tenants to pay
half-yearly, or has that been in your contemplation?-The money
would require to be raised half-yearly, because it has to be paid
half-yearly. There are heavy liabilities such as interest on bonds to
be paid out of it every half-year, and the money must be raised for
that purpose.
12,345. Do you believe it to be possible for the tenants in Havera,
or on such an island, to pay their rents half-yearly?-I don't think
such a system would work. Spring and summer is the time when
they earn their money to pay their rents with, and we would not be
able to collect the rents at Whitsunday from the tenants.
12,346. Are you aware whether the tacksmen of Burra interfere
with the tenants in the sale of their cattle hosiery, or eggs?-I
know they do not interfere with them in that way.
12,347. Are you aware whether the tacksmen insist on the tenants
taking their supplies from their shops at Scalloway or Lerwick?-I
am sure they do not. Nobody ever alleged that to me.
12,348. Would you as trustee for the proprietors, object to such a
restriction?-Certainly.
12,349. Are you the factor on the estate?-I am trustee. I have
to collect the money from the property, and pay the burdens, and
account to the ladies for the residue.
12,350. Do you suppose the Burra islanders would be benefited
by the establishment of shops in Burra by the tacksmen?-I don't
think that would be any particular benefit to them.
12,351. Is there a population there to support shops?-Not shops.
12,352. Or a shop?-I daresay a shop might pay; but I don't think
it would be any advantage to the people. They are so near to
Scalloway that a shop in Burra would only get a portion of the
custom of the island.
12,353. Do you think the Burra men have an opportunity of
purchasing their goods at other shops than Messrs. Hay & Co.'s?-
Certainly; they don't deal exclusively with them. They can buy
their goods where they like and I think they divide their custom
very much.
12,354. Where else do they buy?-In the other Scalloway shops
and in Lerwick.
12,355. Did you ascertain that in the course of the inquiry which
you made in 1869?-It is a fact well known to me from my
intercourse with the people, I am meeting them every month, not
on the island, but elsewhere.
12,356. Do they tell you that they purchase their goods elsewhere
than from Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I never put the question to them,
because I was quite aware of their dealings being divided. A great
many of the men are fishing to smack owners in Lerwick, and
probably have a good deal of their dealings with the merchants
they fish to.
12,357. Are some of them in your own Faroe vessels?-Yes, we
have two or three.
12,358. Is that your reason for believing that they are not confined
in their dealings to the shops of Messrs. Hay & Co.?-I know that
to be a fact, from various circumstances.
12,359. But you know it from the circumstance that they are
engaged in fishing to other merchants?-No; that does not follow.
12,360. It does not follow as a necessary consequence that they
do not deal with Messrs. Hay & Co. but it is a reasonable
presumption, that if they are fishing to another merchant they
get some of their supplies from his shop?-Certainly.
12,361. Are you prepared to say that the bulk of the dealings of the
Burra men is not at Messrs. Hay's shops?-I should think that
much more than one half of their dealings must be with other
people. That is speaking of the whole population of the island,
and including those men who go to Faroe.
12,362. Are the greater number of the men in Burra engaged in
the Faroe fishing?-There are more of them engaged in the Faroe
fishing than in any other.
12,363. And more on an average than in other districts in
Shetland?-Yes. They have taken to that kind of fishing
more readily than others.
12,364. How, does it happen that they have taken to it?-I don't
know; I suppose it is just from their position, and their early
training in boats. They take to a good fishing rather than to the
Greenland trade. They are generally good fishermen. Taking
them as a class, they are better fishermen than in any other district
that I know of in Shetland.
12,365. Would it be a reasonable presumption to suppose that they
had taken to the Faroe fishing in order to avoid the restrictions
which are laid upon them with regard to the ling fishing?-
Certainly not. These young men would not have remained at
home about the shore fishing. If they had not gone to Faroe they
would have gone to the merchant service or to Greenland.
12,366. Do you think the restriction had anything at all to do with
it?-Nothing whatever.
12,367. But you ascertained in the course of your inquiries, and
you know now, that there is a restriction by the terms of their
leases upon the Burra men with regard to the ling fishing?-Yes,
they hold their land under condition that they are to deliver their
fish to Messrs, Hay.
12,368. Your largest shop is at Reawick, and you have also two
small ones at Foula and Sandness?-Yes.
12,369. Do most of the fishermen engaged in the ling fishing
usually deal at one or other of the stores you have mentioned?-
Yes; there is no other store near.
12,370. Do you mean that there is no other store near Reawick?-
No. I thought you referred to the two smaller shops. All the men
get the whole of their supplies from our stores there.
12,371. At Sandness and Foula there are no other stores within
reach of the fishermen residing there?-No.
12,372. Is there any restriction upon the opening of other shops
in Foula, or on the sale of goods there by any other party who
chooses to attempt that?-As acting for the proprietor, I don't
think we would allow it. We would not allow small shops in
either of these districts if we could help it.
12,373. Would you allow a trader from Scalloway or Lerwick
to sell goods out of his smack there?-Yes; and I have known
instances of them going there from [Page 306] Walls and
Scalloway. There is no restriction upon the like of that.
12,374. Are the inhabitants sometimes supplied with meal and
articles of dress and provisions by other merchants from the
mainland?-The Foula people, annually, when their fishing is
over, come to the mainland, and they can then lay in what supplies
they are in need of.
12,375. Do they come in every year themselves?-Not the whole
of them, but many of them do.
12,376. Do you know whether or not any traders visit the islands
for the purpose of selling provisions or goods?-No; they have not
done that lately. They could have no object in going there.
12,377. Why?-Because they could not compete with us. We
have a shop there for the supply of goods, and we supply them to
the people on as moderate terms as other parties could do.
Therefore the men have no object in dealing elsewhere.
12,378. I suppose it would be a very small trade that could be
driven with 40 families?-Yes, rather.
12,379. But I presume you consider it fair that, as you supply these
families year by year, and are in a sense responsible that their
supply shall not run short, you should in return have the bulk of
their business?-They may go where they choose.
12,380. But would you continue to supply them if you did not have
the bulk of their dealings?-No, we would not keep a shop there if
we did not have the bulk of their dealings; it would not be worth
our while. I may explain that, a few years ago, some of the young
men wished to cure their own fish, and go out with them to the
mainland. There was a little discussion amongst them about it,
and we put it to them whether they would wish to have that liberty
or not and in order to ascertain their views, we sent in a paper to
the schoolmaster, and asked him, to circulate it among the men.
[The witness put in a document in the following terms, signed in
the affirmative by 65 men:-
'Garriock & Co., who have for the last fourteen years kept a curing
establishment on the island of Foula, and found the undivided
produce small enough to pay for the trouble and risk of it, while
furnishing the necessaries of life, fishing material, etc., at ordinary
rates, would, now that some parties have shown an inclination and
even begun to cure their own fish, wish to ascertain the views of
the people as to whether they desire G. & Co. to continue their
establishment as before; or would they prefer each to cure as it
suits him, and provide his necessaries as he can? Whilst there is
always the most perfect freedom to all to fish, labour, and sell their
produce in what appears to them the best market, the isolated
position of the island appears to require that one system be
followed by all.
'The heads of families and other fishermen will therefore please
indicate their views by subscribing below, adding yes if the
former system be preferred; or no if otherwise.-1867.']
12,381. Were there any negatives to the paper?-No. It created
great alarm amongst the people, because they were afraid they
would be left to their own resources.
12,382. In consequence of that you continued to supply the
islanders?-Yes, we went on as before.
12,383. Was it previous to that that the last attempt was made to
trade in the island by outside traders?-I think so; I do not think
there has been anything of that sort attempted for several years.
12,384. Do you remember when any attempt of that kind was
made?-I cannot say. I remember hearing of some boats coming
in from Walls or Scalloway, I forget which.
12,385. Did you object to any one coming from Orkney?-No, not
in this generation. They came from Orkney above 80 years ago.
12,386. Since you sent in that paper, has any attempt been made by
the inhabitants of Foula to cure their fish themselves?-No; we
found it needless to have sent in that paper, because they had given
it up themselves, as it had not been paying them.
12,387. But that paper had the effect of making it quite clear to the
inhabitants of Foula that they must either give their fish to you
green, or you would remove your shop?-We would either have
their whole trade or none of it. It is a great risk to send vessels and
boats there, and part of their trade would not pay. I may say that
we supply goods there at the same price as we do at our shop at
Reawick.
12,388. The majority of the fishermen engaged in your ling
fishing, you have said, have their accounts at one or other of your
shops, and those at Foula and Sandness have no other shops within
reach?-Yes.
12,389. Is it not the case that many of the men have accounts and
take their supplies at Reawick, who live much more conveniently
for other dealers in the district?-Yes, we have accounts with
many people in the neighbourhood of other shops.
12,390. But the men come to you, I suppose, because they sell
their fish to you?-I don't know. For instance, we give very small
supplies to the Walls men. They deal a good deal in the shops in
their own neighbourhood, and we pay them for their fish in cash. I
have mentioned in my statement, that of £829, 19s. 1d., which was
the amount of their earnings, we paid them 18s. 41/2d. in cash at
settlement. These men lived from 8 to 10 miles distant from
Reawick, and with some of them we have no dealings in goods at
all.
12,391. Do men who live nearer Reawick take a greater amount of
supplies from you?-Yes.
12,392. Why do you not adopt, with these men on the mainland,
the same rule which you have laid down at Foula, that you must
have their whole dealings or none?-We don't require to do it
with the men on the mainland. They are at perfect liberty to deal
where they choose.
12,393. But you might lay down that rule if you pleased?-We
might; but I would not consider it fair to do so.
12,394. Would it be impracticable to carry it out?-I don't know.
I suppose it is done in some places in Shetland; but the men in our
neighbourhood have always been free to deal where they chose,
since we had anything to do with them, and we were always
prepared to pay them for their fish in money.
12,395. But, in point of fact, they have sometimes taken a very
large portion of their earnings in goods?-I think, when we give in
our schedules, it will be found that we have paid them more than
one half of their earnings in money.
12,396. Was it not the case formerly, that the amount paid in
goods was much larger than it has been for the last few years?-
I don't think so.
12,397. I understand you buy a considerable quantity of fish which
have been already cured by the crews themselves?-Yes. We
don't look upon these men as our fishermen. They are at perfect
liberty to sell their fish when they are cured, to any one they
please.
12,398. But, in point of fact, many of these crews are composed
of tenants upon your own or Mr. Umphray's property, or on
Melby?-Yes, a good many of the ling fishers are.
12,399. Are you aware whether these men have been invited to sell
their cured fish to other dealers than you?-Yes; I suppose they
have offers every year.
12,400. But they generally prefer to sell them to you?-They do.
We can always give them the best price, because we are exporters,
and buy from the merchants; and we have always given the men
the benefit of the highest price going.
12,401. Have you been told by them that they have been offered
a higher price than you paid them, but that they preferred
notwithstanding to sell to you?-No; I never knew of any case
of that sort.
12,402. I have been told today that some men in that district have
been willing to give a higher, or at least as high, a price as that
which you gave at the end of the season for cured fish, and that
they could not get the fishermen to give them the chance of buying
them at all: has that come within your knowledge?-I think that is
wrong. I was not present when these parties were examined
to-day; but I know that one of them near our station at Dale
offered the men this year £21 [Page 307] for their ling if they
would sell them, but they preferred just to put fish into our hands
without the price being stated, and we paid them £22 for the same
fish.
12,403. What was the current price this year?-The shipping price
for ling was £23, but these fish cured by the men themselves are
not equal to the fish cured by us or by the larger curers. They are
somewhat inferior, as they are cured in smaller quantities.
12,404. Were the men to whom that offer was made mostly tenants
of your farm, or on the Melby estate?-Not necessarily; but I think
the bulk of them must have been tenants on Melby.
12,405. Has any intimation ever been made to the tenants on that
estate that they ought to sell their fish to you?-Never.
12,406. Has the contrary been intimated to them by Dr. Scott or by
yourself?-It has always been given out that they were at perfect
freedom to fish where they chose.
12,407. In your statement about the Faroe fishing, you say that the
fishing could not be carried on if you were not to supply them,
especially as regards lads in their first and second year: is it the
case that lads at the Faroe fishing, in their first and second years,
are generally much more deeply in debt to the merchant than the
older men?-Yes; they require larger outfits, and they have not
had any means of earning money before with which to buy clothes.
12,408. Are these outfits necessarily obtained from the merchant
who owns the smack in which they sail?-We are obliged to
advance them to them. It is rather a risky thing for us sometimes,
but they cannot go to the fishing unless they have such supplies.
12,409. Still you can secure yourselves at settlement?-Yes, if
they make a fishing.
12,410. And if they don't make a fishing, they will probably
engage with you in the following year?-As a rule they do.
12,411. If they did not, you could take them to the Small-Debt
Court?-Of course; but we always prefer a free man to a man who
is in the book with balance against him.
12,412. Do you find that such a man fishes with more heart than a
man who is in debt?-Undoubtedly.
12,413. He thinks he is going to get something for himself, and not
merely something to pay off a debt?-For many years we have had
very few indebted men, so that I cannot say much about that.
12,414. In arranging with the crew of a smack for the year's
fishing, do you embody your agreement in writing?-Yes; it is a
stamped agreement. There is one for the crew of each smack, and
they are written out each year.
12,415. Do they differ materially in their details?-They are
all the same for the Faroe fishing. They have been altered from
year to year, according to circumstances, but not very much.
12,416. Does that agreement leave the whole power of
disposing of the produce and of fixing the price in the hands
of the fish-curer?-Not of fixing the price exactly. The men
are to be paid at the current price for the year. That is their
stipulation with us.
12,417. But the ascertainment of the current price is left entirely to
the merchant?-Yes. The merchants have to dispose of the fish,
and account for them to the men.
12,418. These agreements make the fishermen and the merchant
really partners or joint adventurers, so far as the fishing of the
season is concerned?-Of course they do.
12,419. But it leaves the merchant in the position of having the
sole power over the produce, both as to selling it and fixing the
price?-He has the power of completing the cure of it and of
selling it. The merchant has to take the risk in selling. If we were
to sell to a party who failed, we would still be responsible to the
men for the current price.
12,420. Is that expressed in the agreement?-I don't think it is
expressed in our agreement, but it is understood.
12,421. Is it not the case that the fishermen can only claim what is
really got for the fish?-No. If we were to sell them at half-price,
we would still be bound to pay the men the current rate at the end
of the season.
12,422. If you sold them for the current price, but failed to recover
that price from the buyer, would the fishermen have any recourse
against you?-Yes; we would have to pay them.
12,423. Has that been done frequently?-No. There was one
instance where we sold fish and got almost nothing for them, and
yet accounted to the men for the price. I think that was in 1867.
The party to whom we sold the fish stopped payment, and we only
got a small compromise.
12,424. Had you paid your fishermen before the failure?-I think
not; at least we knew of the loss before we settled with the
fishermen, but there never was any thought of not paying them.
We knew that we were responsible for the payment to the men,
under the terms of the agreement.
12,425. Then the agreement does lay the risk upon you?-Yes, it
does lay the risk upon us, although it does not expressly state
anything about a loss.
12,426. The other articles in the agreement provide for the amount
of food to be furnished by the owners?-Yes.
12,427. And a scale of victualling if the men go to Iceland?-No,
we have nothing about that. Our fishermen are all partners to the
end of the season. We do not pay them in wages at all.
12,428. Are there not sometimes special stipulations for that
event?-Other owners sometimes send out their vessels on wages,
but then it is another agreement altogether that is entered into.
12,429. What are the other conditions in your agreement?-The
owners bind themselves to find the ship, and everything relating to
her; to provide the coals necessary for the voyage; and to give the
men an allowance of 8 lbs. of bread per week. The men, on the
other side, agree to accept of a certain proportion of the fishing:
one half, after deducting certain items for salting and curing the
fish, in full of wages, or as their interest in the affair; and they also
provide bait. The details of the agreement are given in the
statement I have produced.
12,430. You say that sixty-three tons of your cure is from crews
who cure their own fish and deliver them at one time at the end of
the curing season; and these, of course, as you have already said,
would be sold at a rather lower price than fish of your own
cure?-Yes. They are never equal to our own cure; indeed they
cannot be, from want of skill; and from the fish being cured in
very small quantities, they can never be properly pressed.
12,431. Do you know of any case in which a trader in Walls
attempted some time ago to introduce the practice of buying fish,
and paying for them in cash at delivery?-Yes, I have heard of
that, I think, in more cases than one.
12,432. Have you tried it yourself?-No, I don't think we have.
Sometimes, if we buy small quantities from the fishermen, we pay
them in cash if they wish it so.
12,433. But you have not known any case in which that has been
attempted throughout the whole year?-I think the men could
always sell for cash at any season if they chose.
12,434. Could they sell in that way to you?-Yes, to me or to any
of the dealers in Walls. We would be quite prepared to take their
fish and to pay them cash, but we would pay for them at such a
safe price that they would not sell them.
12,435. Have you known of any dealer other than yourself who has
attempted to introduce that system?-I know that the Walls people
have offered to buy from the fishermen generally, and to pay cash
if they chose, and they have probably paid some.
12,436. Do you know why they have not succeeded in carrying out
that system?-They could not agree with the men about the price.
They would not give so high a price in cash as the men expected.
12,437. You say that last year you employed forty beach boys from
thirteen to seventeen years of age, all [Page 308] of whom had
cash to get, and none of whom are in advance on the coming
season: is that a usual state of things with the people employed in
curing?-It is with us.
12,438. But I suppose that, in fact, they all take supplies from your
stores during the season?-Yes, more or less. They must have
meal to live upon, at any rate.
12,439. And they get that as they want it from you in the course of
the season?-Yes.
12,440. Are they paid by beach fees?-Yes; they are paid by a
certain sum, which is settled for at the end of the season.
12,441. Are any of them paid by weekly wages?-We have a
number of people employed in curing fish, who are paid either
daily or weekly-just occasional hands; and we sometimes have to
put out quantities of fish to be cured by contract. These are paid
for in cash as soon as the fish are put into the store and weighed.
12,442. In that case, are advances made at your store to the parties
so employed?-Yes. We sometimes advance money while the
work is going on, but never goods.
12,443. If they want money, do they come to you with a line
from the contractor?-We have never given it in that way. If the
contractor requires some money to pay the people who are
working for him, he comes for it himself.
12,444. Have you any dealings at all with the parties employed
under your contractor, or do you make him transact all the
necessary business with them?-We transact with him entirely:
we have nothing to do with the parties under him.
12,445. Do you also employ parties in the curing at weekly wages
yourselves?-Yes. At Reawick and at all the stations we have
extra hands on when there is much to do.
12,446. Do you find that these parties require to come to you for
supplies before the weekly pay-day?-There are some cases of
that kind, I daresay.
12,447. Is it not the case, in the majority of cases, that you have to
give them supplies?-The most of our payments in that way are in
cash, and they are made every week or ten days.
12,448. Is Saturday your pay-day?-We have no fixed pay-day for
the people employed among the fish.
12,449. If they require to come for, advances in the meantime, in
what way are these given out?-Most of our work in that way is
done at Scalloway, where we have no shop, and we could not give
them goods. They get their money when their work is done every
week, or at all events within the fortnight.
12,450. Do they not get advances of money in the interim?-No,
not the daily hands. The contractors whom I mentioned before
sometimes get some money.
12,451. But the daily hands don't get any money until the
settlement?-Not as a rule. I may perhaps give them a few
shillings between the pays, but that is not common thing; they
don't require it.
12,452. If they want supplies in the meantime, have you any idea
how they get them?-I have no doubt they can get credit from the
shops in Scalloway.
12,453. Do you know whether they have a practice of applying to
your manager there for a line or a certificate, to the effect that they
have wages to receive in order to satisfy the shopkeeper?-No; I
don't think they do that.
12,454. Have you ever known of such cases?-I don't remember
of any case, and I don't think there has ever been a case of the
kind.
12,455. Do you know whether these people run accounts with the
shopkeepers in Scalloway?-I know that often what they have to
get on the Saturday night is partly forestalled in the shops.
12,456. Have they told you that, or how have you found it out?-I
have found out from the shops that they were giving them credit.
12,457. Have the shopkeepers applied to you to stop their
wages?-No; I would not stand that. I have always paid the
money over to the people themselves, and if they have run
accounts they have to go themselves and pay them.
12,458. Have you found a tendency among the people employed
by you to run into debt in that way at Scalloway?-Yes.
12,459. Do you not think that is due to the system which prevails
in the country, of running accounts instead of paying in ready
money?-I cannot say.
12,460. Would you say that a party who was engaged to work to
you for a week at curing, feels that it is a natural thing when he has
money to receive at the end of the week, to have it all exhausted
by his out-takes from the shop before it is due?-I don't know if it
is the feeling; but it is just a custom they have got into, and a bad
custom.
12,461. Then there is such a tendency to get into debt before the
pay is due even when it is paid in cash?-Yes, there is a tendency
in that way.
12,462. You say that you found the hosiery trade a losing one for
you, but convenient for your customers?-Yes; that is the only
reason why we have anything to do with it.
12,463. Is it convenient for your customers because they get
supplies of goods for hosiery at your shop, without the necessity
of taking the hosiery to another market and selling it?-Yes.
When they come to us with money and eggs, and produce of that
kind, they may have some hosiery with them too; and we cannot
very well turn them away, and cause them to go a great distance
with it.
12,464. Do you fix the price of the hosiery?-Yes.
12,465. You do not require to take it at a price which would not
remunerate yourselves?-No. Of course, if they asked more than
we were inclined to give, they would have to take it away.
12,466. Have you any dealings in kelp?-None. There is some
kelp on Dr. Scott's property, but Mr. Adie purchases it.
12,467. Does he pay a rent to Mr. Scott for the kelp shores?-He
pays a trifle; it is not much.
12,468. You say you have a certain number of boats engaged in
what is called the home cod fishing?-Yes, they are small smacks.
12,469. You are almost the only people who are still engaged in
that business?-Yes.
12,470. What number of vessels do you employ in that way?-We
had five out last year; we used to have ten or twelve.
12,471. What would be the number of the crews in these five
vessels?-They would average nine hands.
12,472. How long in the year are they engaged in that fishing?-
For a little more than three months, from 1st May to 15th August.
The men in that fishing go on shares, and are settled with in the
same way as those on board the Faroe smacks. The arrangement
as to the division is different in these vessels The crew get
seven-twelfths of the earnings, and we don't find bread or coals.
12,473. Do these men come home oftener than the Faroe
fishers?-Yes; they come home weekly. I now produce a
settlement with one of these vessels. [Produces it.]
12,474. That shows that, as nearly as possible, four-fifths of the
whole earnings were paid in cash?-Yes. Two of these men are
our tenants. I think we had three of Mr. Hay's tenants in that
vessel. It is a mixed crew; we never ask whose property they are
on when we engage them.
12,475. You say in your statement that your firm has no separate
accounts for the wife and none with the other members of the
family, unless when they are working or fishing for themselves: is
that when the other members of the family are fishermen or beach
boys?-Yes.
12,476. Or when the wife is engaged in curing?-We have no
married women employed in any branch of our business.
12,477. Do you keep any account with women engaged in the
curing?-No. These women are only employed by the day.
12,478. I believe that you are yourself a skilful boatman, and
acquainted with the fishing in all its details? Do you think it
possible in Shetland to prosecute the [Page 309] winter fishing
to a greater extent than at present, if boats of a superior class were
introduced?-Not to any great extent. I have no doubt the fishing
will increase. It is increasing, and will increase, and the boats will
be improved
12,479. I presume you would be glad to continue curing to as
large an extent in winter as in summer, if you could get the fish
delivered to you?-Yes. I think there are facilities all round
Shetland for that and they could sell their fish any day. It is not
for the want of a market that the men don't fish. The great barrier
is the weather.
12,480. Would the weather be as great a barrier if the boats were
of an improved class?-The men could not have a better class of
boats than they have.
12,481. Would decked boats not enable them to fish all the
winter?-No.
12,482. What is the difference in that respect between Shetland
and the east coast of Scotland?-We have a heavier sea, and more
uncertain weather here. Our present boats can go out in a lull, and
some more quickly ashore when the weather gets rough; but the
heavier decked vessels could not do that. In order to fish with
decked vessels, the men would require to remain at sea in good
and bad weather.
12,483. Would that be impracticable here?-I think so. It would
not pay.
12,484. Would that be from want of a market?-No; it would be
because there was not enough good weather, and the men would
not catch fish enough. Some of the welled smacks have gone out
in winter, and gone up to Grimsby with their fish, and that has paid
occasionally.
12,485. Are there vessels of that class in use in Shetland?-Yes,
several. Mr. Harrison had one up in December which succeeded
very well, and there is one out from Scalloway just now at Faroe;
but it is not considered that it will be extensively or generally
continued, the fishing is so precarious.
12,486. Are the men unwilling to engage in the winter fishing in
any of these modes?-I think it will be very difficult to get many
men to go to it.
12,487. In other places the winter fishing with decked vessels is
practised all winter, is it not?-On the coast of England it is.
12,488. The men there go to the Dogger Bank mostly?-Yes.
12,489. Is there any reason why that sort of fishing cannot be
practised in Shetland?-There are many reasons why it cannot be
done. There is the heavy sea, and the deep water, and the nature of
the fishing grounds.
12,490. Would long-line fishing be impracticable on the banks of
Shetland?-In winter it would. It could not be done in these
vessels.
12,495. Is that owing to the nature of the ground, or for what
reason?-It is owing to the depth of the water and the strong tides.
12,492. Has it ever been tried to set lines from these decked
vessels?-In summer it has been tried, and it has generally failed.
It has always been discontinued.
12,493. I believe it is necessary to set lines with rowing vessels?-
Yes; the fishermen consider that to be the safest way, after all.
12,494. But they do sail out their lines sometimes, do they not?-
Yes; and that saves them the trouble of pulling.
12,495. Is it only recently that that practice has been introduced?-
I think so. I have not heard of it until lately; but I believe it is now
done in consequence of larger boats being used than were in use at
one time.
12,496. What is the amount of the poor-rate in the parish of
Sandsting?-It is 2s. 4d. on the landlord, and the same on the
tenant.
12,497. Is not that rather above the average?-It is. In Walls it is
1s. 10d. Alexander Wallace is the inspector in Sandsting, and Mr.
Umphray is the chairman of the Board.
12,498. Does Wallace live in Sandsting?-Yes; on the Walls road.
12,499. How long has he been inspector?-I could not say. I think
six or eight years, or more than that.
12,500. Where does he pay the paupers' allowances?-I think he
used to go to the parish church at one time, but latterly, I believe,
he has paid them at his own house.
12,501. Who is the inspector in Walls?-James Georgeson.
12,502. Does he also pay the paupers at his own house?-Yes, so
far as I know.
12,503. Has there ever been a practice of paying them at
Reawick?-There are a few, I think five or six, in that district
whom our shopman has been in the habit of paying. Wallace
sends their pay to him, as they live five or six miles from his
(Wallace's) house.
12,504. Are these paupers always paid in cash?-Yes.
12,505. Are they paid in the shop?-I suppose so. There was some
inquiry about that lately. I asked the man about it, and he said he
invariably paid them in cash; but we put a stop to it, as the thing
was not considered to be regular. It had just been done to save the
inspector trouble, or to save the people from going so far for their
money.
12,506. Have you any knowledge as to how men are employed
here for the Greenland fishery?-I am not engaged in that business
myself, but I know pretty well how the thing goes on.
12,507. Are there any men from your district employed in that
fishery?-There are a few who go to it from some little distance
from where I live.
12,508. Do the men employed in that fishing require a larger and
more expensive outfit than those who are employed in other
fishings or in other seafaring pursuits?-They require warmer
clothing. I think that is the only difference.
12,509. Do you suppose that the first month's wages which a lad
going to that fishing gets is sufficient to provide him with the
necessary outfit?-Certainly not, and I know that in consequence
of that very few lads are now going to Greenland. They cannot be
fitted out now as they used to be before the new Board of Trade
regulations were issued.
12,510. Have you that knowledge from the statements of the lads
in your neighbourhood?-Yes, I know it from the men and the lads
who go to the fishing. It is coming to be mostly men who are
taken for these voyages.
12,511. Is that because the men have already got outfits?-Yes.
They could not take lads who are insufficiently clothed; while the
men are better clothed, and are more able to stand the severity of
the climate. That fishing used to be a nursery for our young men,
bringing them up to be able to take their position in the merchant
service; but now it is not, and cannot be.
12,512. Do you think the result of the Board of Trade regulations
has been to prevent agents in Lerwick from giving the young men
credit for their outfits?-I think that must have been the result; and
it has prevented so many young men from being employed as there
used to be.
12,513. Have you known of any young men going to Greenland
with insufficient outfits in consequence of that difficulty in getting
credit?-I cannot say that I have known of any particular case; but
I should suppose it was very likely to have happened.
12,514. Do you know that, in point of fact, young men engaging to
go to Greenland cannot get any reasonable amount of credit from
an agent in Lerwick?-Yes, I know that to be the fact; and I also
know it to be the fact that there are very few young men now going
there.
12,515. Can you tell me of any young man who has said to you
that he would have gone to Greenland if he could have got an
outfit?-No, I cannot.
12,516. Has that ever been said to you by any young man in
Shetland?-I don't know that I ever put the question to any one.
12,517. Has anybody made such a statement to you without you
having put the question?-No. I have asked some of the men how
it was that there were so [Page 310] very few green hands now
going to Greenland, and they said the young men and lads could
not be fitted out now as they were before,-that they could only
get one month's advance, and that if their wages were only 16s. or
20s. a month, that would only buy them a pair of boots, and they
had nothing for clothing.
12,518. In what way did that question suggest itself to your
mind?-I think it was from noticing the fact of so many young
lads pressing in to go to Faroe. We found more lads wishing
employment at Faroe than we could find room for, and on
making inquiry I found that that was the reason.
12,519. Why is it that the agents do not give the same credit as
they gave before?-I think it must be in consequence of the Board
of Trade regulations.
12,520. But these regulations do not interfere directly with the
giving of credit; they only provide that the payment of wages shall
take place in presence of the superintendent at the Custom House
and shall be in cash?-I am aware of that.
12,521. The agent has, with an honest man, the same security for
payment of his account that he had before, only the wages cannot
be retained by him at settlement?-It must be from the fact that
the wages cannot be retained, that the credit has been limited.
12,522. Do you think it would be an expedient thing that these
young men should be allowed to incur an account for their outfit,
and that the agent furnishing that outfit should be in a position to
retain the wages due at the end of the voyage?-I would not give
an opinion upon that point. Perhaps it is better as it is.
12,523. Do you wish to make any remarks upon the Report by
Mr. Hamilton to the Board of Trade, which was printed in the
appendix to the previous report of the Commissioners?-I think
that report is manifestly incorrect in what Mr. Hamilton says in
regard to the Shetland system generally. He says, 'Almost every
fisherman in the islands is in debt to some shopkeeper; and not
only is the head of the family in debt, but frequently his wife also
and other members of his family, down to children of twelve or
fourteen years of age, for whom the shopkeeper opens separate
accounts in his books.' I don't know where Mr. Hamilton could
have got that information from.
12,524. Your own firm is an exception as regards the women,
because you have no transactions with them?-It is surely not an
exception. I think it must be the rule. I don't believe that such a
system exists generally, as that of keeping separate accounts for a
husband and wife.
12,525. But the younger members of the family may have separate
accounts, and a few of them have separate accounts even in your
business?-They have, if they are employed by us. A man may
have five or six sons, every one fishing and getting his own share
and having his own account.
12,526. May some of these sons be as young as twelve or fourteen
years of age?-They begin about fourteen to go to the fishing, as
well as to go to the beach. It appears to me that Mr. Hamilton's
report has been rounded very much on hearsay, and on opinions
which he had formed when he was a boy.
12,527. Was the state of things different in Shetland when he was
a boy from what it is now?-Yes, it was a good deal different; I
think we are improving. I think there are more of the fishermen
now who are free to deal as they choose. I think they have a much
greater outfit in every way for fishing, and much better returns;
and the fishermen, as a class, are living better and wearing better
than they did in those days.
12,528. Is there anything else in the report that you wish to
correct?-I consider that the report is altogether wrong.
12,529. I should like specific statements about that, because
gentlemen have come to contradict the report before and have
gone through it sentence by sentence?-I consider that Mr.
Hamilton was going out of his way altogether in making that
report.
12,530. Still it might be correct, for all that?-It might be; but it
appears to have some weight as coming from the Board of Trade,
whereas Mr. Hamilton could have no opportunity of knowing these
things from personal knowledge or of judging for himself.
12,531. The point on which he had been directed to inquire was as
to the official discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in
whaling vessels?-Yes; and if he had confined himself to that, he
would have been doing what was quite right; but all these general
remarks about the Shetland System are very wide of the mark,
and must have been got from hearsay, because many of them are
incorrect. He says, for instance, 'Any man who carried his custom
to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him would
run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular
agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his
contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than
there are berths, he will probably never get any employment
again.' I look upon that as an ill-natured, unfounded remark.
12,532. Was there any foundation for that in time past?-I don't
believe there was any foundation for such a statement at any time.
12,533. Have you any personal knowledge that enables you to
contradict that statement, or have you any knowledge of the matter
different from the hearsay knowledge which you attribute to Mr.
Hamilton?-I am much better able to judge of it, because I have
been mixed up with these men every day for the last thirty years,
and if such a thing had taken place I would have heard of it.
12,534. Have you ever made any inquiry among them as to
whether that statement was correct?-I have made the most
minute inquiries as to how they were treated, and they volunteered
statements about how they got on, and why they went to one agent
rather than to another.
12,535. What sort of reasons did they give for that?-Of course
they had their own reasons for preferring one agent to another.
For instance one man thought he got his supplies cheaper from a
particular agent, and he went to him.
12,536. Did the reasons they gave for preferring one agent to
another, all assume that the man got his supplies from the agent
who engaged him?-I have been speaking now of what took place
in the trade formerly. For some years back I have not heard
anything about supplies at all. They say they get their month's
advance now in money.
12,537. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the men do get
their supplies from the agent still?-I believe they get them to a
very small extent.
12,538. You mean to a small extent, compared with what was the
case in former times?-I believe so.
12,539. Is that belief rounded upon the statements of the men
themselves, or is it simply from hearsay?-I have been told so by
the men.
12,540. Have they told you that they get smaller outfits now than
they did formerly, or smaller supplies from their agents?-The
class of men who go now to that fishing are not the same as they
used to be; they do not require the supplies which the green hands
used to get.
12,541. You mean that they do not require so large outfits?-Yes.
12,542. But if they are men with families they probably require
much larger supplies for their families during their absence. I
suppose they get these supplies from the agents?-I know that in
some cases they do; but I know that my firm supplies many of the
families of men who go to Greenland, and they pay us in money
when they come back and have got their settlement.
12,543. Has your firm a larger business in the way of supplying the
families of fishermen who go to Greenland than it formerly had
before these regulations of the Board of Trade were introduced?-
I think so. I think that formerly the men confined themselves more
to the agents for their supplies.
12,544. Are you aware whether at any time the men were under
any obligation to ship with one agent more than with another for
the Greenland voyage: have you [Page 311] heard anything to that
effect from the men?-No. I never heard them speak about being
compelled in any way with regard to the Greenland trade.
12,545. I do not speak of compulsion; but have you heard of
them being expected or obliged in any way, or of influence being
used?-I never heard of them being influenced in any way. I don't
think that was ever the practice with regard to the Greenland trade.
12,546. Is there any other passage in the report to which you wish
to refer?-Mr. Hamilton says, 'This is merely one phase of the
truck system in Shetland, on which are also based arrangements
with the crews of coasting and home trade vessels, of the few
foreign going vessels, of the Faroe and Iceland fishing vessels,
and of the large fleet of fishing boats. Some of the seamen and
fishermen feel, and bitterly complain of, the bondage of the
system; but, as a rule, the character and habits of the natives have
become so assimilated to it, that they are either unconscious of
its existence, or are reconciled to its working, that they would
probably themselves be averse to any change; for although they
may have no option but to work for one master at such
remuneration in goods as he may see fit to give, yet they feel that
in bad seasons he will not let them starve.' That is a fearfully
overdrawn picture.
12,547. I suppose your firm has often had occasion to make large
advances in a bad season in order to carry your fishermen
through?-Yes.
12,548. And these advances have been repaid by the men from
the produce of the following seasons?-Yes; but I deny that
there are such hardships as are spoken of here. We have often
had to advance a fisherman for perhaps two years' rent, and he
had to remain in debt. His fishing was not sufficient to meet his
requirements.
12,549. In that case the man would usually continue to fish for
you?-Yes. He usually continues until he has wrought off his
debt.
12,550. Have you known men in that position who attempted to
dispose of their fish to other employers?-I cannot say that I have.
12,551. Have they always continued with you until their debt was
wiped off?-They continued from year year at any rate.
12,552. But they did not leave you in these circumstances?-No;
as a class, they are much too honest for that.
12,553. Have you ever had an occasion, when a man came to you
from another employer, to become responsible to that employer
for a debt due by the fisherman to him?-No, I don't think we ever
undertook anything of that kind.
12,554. Have you been in the converse position of obtaining
payment of a debt due to you from a fisherman who changed his
employment?-I don't recollect any case of the kind.
12,555. Does any arrangement exist between your firm and any
other by which you undertake the debts of that firm, and they
undertake yours in such cases?-No; we have never taken
fishermen into our employment under such circumstances. Then
Mr. Hamilton says: 'The employer has unlimited opportunity of
appropriating to himself all the result of their labour, leaving to
them only so much as is absolutely necessary to prevent them from
starving.' That is a state of things which I know nothing about,
and I don't believe it exists.
12,556. If a merchant has full power to fix the price of the fish,
and if he also fixes the price at which he sells his goods, and the
fisherman has no other place where he can get credit for the
supplies which are necessary for his existence, is it not
conceivable that that state of matters might be abused?-It is
conceivable, and there may be a few cases of that kind; but to
speak of that as being the rule, is not correct.
12,557. Have you ever heard complaints from the men engaged in
the Greenland fishery that they could not get their wages settled
for at an earlier period?-I never heard of any difficulty in that
way.
12,558. Have you heard them complain that the agent had
contrived to keep them in his debt?-I never heard of such a thing.
Often when they had money to pay to us, they have said they had
not been in for their wages, and that they were going; but they
never said there was any difficulty in getting it, if they only went
to Lerwick for it.
12,559. Is all the rest of Mr. Hamilton's report correct except those
passages you have referred to?-Certainly not. I do not agree with
it at all. There is shade of truth about some things stated in it, but
it is overstated.
12,560. Do you differ from this statement in it: 'For this purpose
they employ agents in Lerwick who get, as I am informed, little
direct profit from their agency. Their chief profit arises from what
they can make out of the earnings of the men?'-That used to be
the case.
12,561. That means, of course, that the agents' chief profit arose
from their sales of goods to the men; and that used to be the case
formerly?-Yes.
12,562. When did it cease to be the case?-I believe that since the
Board of Trade regulations were enforced there has been a change.
12,563. Have you heard of any gentlemen giving up the agency in
the Greenland trade in consequence of their failure of profit from
that source?-I think Messrs. Hay & Co. have given it up; I have
not heard of any others.
12,564. Have you any doubt at all that the principal part of these
agents' profits was derived from sales of that kind, at least
previous to 1868?-I should think that that is quite correct, if you
speak of several years ago.
12,565. The price for the fish caught in the summer fishing is fixed
according to the current price for dry fish at the end of the season.
How is that current price ascertained?-We know how much
green fish make one cwt. of dry. It varies according to the size of
the fish, and their original quality. The average is about 21/4 cwt.
of green fish to one cwt. of dry.
12,566. Is that the average which is taken in calculating the price
every year, or is there sometimes a different average taken?-That
is taken generally. It varies a little, according to the fish being
very thin or fat at the time they are caught; but 21/4 cwt. is a very
fair estimate taking one time with another. We know how many
tons of wet fish we have at the station, and we know how many
tons of dry fish we get from that place. I have seen the proportion
as high as 21/2 cwt.
12,567. The produce of dry fish at one station might differ from
the same quantity of wet at another?-Yes, it will never be the
same.
12,568. Then, in calculating the amount in order to settle with the
men, do you take it overhead at all your stations?-We take our
chance of it varying.
12,569. You do not settle with the men at one station according to
the actual quantity of dry fish produced from the green fish
delivered there?-No. We have one price for all the season.
12,570. How do you ascertain the current price of dry fish in
order to settle with the men? Is it from your own sales, or do you
communicate with other merchants?-We are not very extensively
engaged in buying the fish green from the men.
12,571. Do you not buy sixty or eighty tons annually?-Yes; but
we generally make a calculation for ourselves. We don't always
pay the current price.
12,572. Is it not your bargain to pay the current price?-That is
the understanding with the men; but we have sometimes paid the
current price, and sometimes we have paid more. We don't bind
ourselves by what others pay.
12,573. Did you ever pay less than the current price?-No; but we
have sometimes paid more.
12,574. The men have no voice at all in settling what the price
shall be: it is left entirely to the merchants, is it not?-I think it is
left very much to the merchants with regard to the green fish.
12,575. Is the competition for fish sufficient here to bring the price
up to the highest figure?-Yes; there is no fear of that.
12,576. Are you prepared to say that any complaints [Page 312]
which the fishermen make to the effect that they do not get the
fair current price which they ought to get for their green fish,
as regulated by the current price at the end of the season, are
unfounded?-We very seldom have such complaints.
12,577. But if there were such complaints, do you say they are
unfounded?-I think the fishermen, generally are very fairly paid
for green fish.
12,578. Are there not two prices for fish exported from Shetland,
according as they are sent to one market or to another?-There are
many prices. Although a current price is fixed, there may be a
considerable difference in what the curer realizes. If a curer
chooses to take the chance of consigning to a certain market, he
may get more or he may get less than if he chose to sell here at
what is the shipping price.
12,579. If a curer sends his fish to the Spanish market, for
example, he may get a much higher price than by selling to a
purchaser at home?-He may get a higher price.
12,580. Does he generally do so?-He generally does, because it is
the best fish that are selected for that market; and if I choose to
reserve a certain portion of any cure and take my chance of how
the market will be going after Christmas, I may get more or I may
get less. I may speculate in that way as I like; but every curer does
not get the same price for his fish, although there is a current price
fixed.
12,581. How is that current price fixed?-I cannot explain it
very well. There is generally a great fight for about a fortnight
between the purchasers from the south and the merchants here.
The south-country buyers come down here, and sometimes they
come to terms at once but sometimes they go away without
fixing if they cannot agree upon the terms. About the month of
September, however, the price generally comes to a figure at last
at which the bulk of the fish go.
12,582. At that time are there communications between the
fish-curers here upon the subject?-Yes; they consult together
as to the offers they have, and whether they are to hold for a higher
price, or take what they can get.
12,583. Is it usual that the bulk of the fish is sold at nearly the
same figure?-As a rule, the bulk of the fish go at one price.
12,584. And the current price, according to which the men are
paid, is fixed by that?-Yes.
12,585. Do you think it would be possible to introduce in the
fishing trade here a system of paying at short intervals for the fish
delivered?-I think it would be quite impossible. We would be
very thankful if we could do so. We would be quite ready to pay
our own men in cash the same as we pay all the Englishmen. We
get large quantities of fish from English vessels, for which we pay
cash; and we would be quite as ready to pay our own men in cash
as them.
12,586. Why is that impossible?-There are many reasons for it.
Our men deliver their fish at a great number of little stations all
round the islands, and we could not have a person at each of these
stations to pay them, without a considerable expense. That is the
case with the curers generally.
12,587. You have only two stations besides Reawick?-We have
more stations than that for receiving fish.
12,588. Would the factor who receives the fish not be quite
competent to pay the men at short intervals?-Sometimes he
might be there for that purpose, and sometimes not; but the
difficulty would be with the men themselves. They would not be
satisfied to have a price fixed then.
12,589. But part of the price might be paid as a bounty, as it were,
and the balance might be payable according to the current price?-
Such an arrangement might be made; but I don't see any object it
could serve because, if our men wish an advance of money during
the fishing season at present, they can get it. If they wish money to
pay for anything they require while the fishing is going on, we
make no difficulty in giving them that advance, because we know
they are delivering fish which will cover it.
12,590. Would not the principal difficulty in the way of such a
system be the necessity under which the men are of getting
advances in goods or cash during the season? Would they be able
to hold on till the fortnightly or monthly payment without getting
advances?-They only require a very small proportion of their
fishing, either in money or in goods, during the season. The great
proportion of it has to be reserved for their annual payments of
rent and poor-rates, and various other things of that sort. The great
difficulty would be with the men: they would not like the system,
because they would feel that they would be losers by it.
12,591. How would they be losers?-Because no curer would risk
such a high price in the summer season as he is ready to pay the
men in the autumn, when he sees what he can afford to pay.
12,592. But when a certain amount of fish is delivered, it is quite
plain that something will be due to the fishermen at the end of the
season: would it not be possible then to fix a minimum price,
below which there could be no reasonable expectation of the fish
falling at the end of the season, and the men might be paid
according to that minimum price?-That would only increase
trouble, without any earthly advantage, so far as I can see.
12,593. The men would have the money in their own hands?-The
men have the money in their own hands as it is. I believe that
from all respectable curers they get money for any purpose they
ask it for.
12,594. But they have to go and ask for it specially?-Certainly.
12,595. And perhaps they have to ask for it as a favour?-Well,
it is a favour. The money is not due for the fish. They have
delivered the article, but it is in advance.
12,596. You mean the bargain is that the fish are to be delivered as
caught, but not to be payable till the end of the season; so that the
mistake, if there is one is in making that bargain?-I don't see that
there is any mistake in it.
12,597. Do you not think the fisherman would be wiser to make
the bargain to get his money paid as he wants it, instead of being
obliged, when he does want it in the course of the season, to ask
for it as a favour?-Such a system could not work, because in
these boats there are certain expenses which must come off the
whole crew. They may have hired men along with them, and they
could not divide each day's fishing or each week's fishing, without
a great deal of trouble and confusion.
12,598. Do you think the present arrangements between the curers
and the men are so complicated that it is necessary to have only
one settlement for the year?-I think the present system is the best
that can be devised. It would be a complicated system if weekly
payments were made; but there is no complication as it is at
present.
12,599. Do you think the system that has been suggested would
require too much accounting?-Yes; and the men could not take
the time to do it, without being great losers.
12,600. Do you receive a large portion of your annual cure from
the English boats which fish for you?-Yes. I suppose we receive
about one-third of our cure from them. All the men who fish for
us in these boats are paid wages, and they have a small allowance,
called score money, on the fish which each man takes.
12,601. Do you buy their fish green at a fixed price?-Yes, at a
price fixed with the master or owner, usually before the vessel
comes out.
12,602. That price is a standing price for the whole season?-Yes,
we take our chance.
12,603. And the owner also takes his chance?-Yes.
12,604. Do you think the men in these boats prosecute the fishing
as vigorously and successfully as those in the Shetland boats, who
are paid on a different principle?-They prosecute it with great
rigour. Generally they are thoroughbred fishermen. They have all
been apprenticed to the fishing when they were boys of 8 or 10
years of age.
12,605. Can you say that the practice which prevails in the
Shetland boats produces a greater amount of energy in carrying
on the fishing, and results in a [Page 313] larger capture of fish
than in the case of these Grimsby boats?-I know that the Shetland
boats catch more fish when competing with the others.
12,606. Are they equipped in the same way, or is there any
difference in the style of boat or of equipment which would
account for that?-They are very much the same class of vessel
as to size and equipment.
12,607. Are the English boats in any way superior?-No, there is
very little difference. Some of the smacks we have are the very
same, having been built by the same builders. I am speaking now
of the Faroe fishing, and these English vessels are all of the same
size and description.
12,608. Which system do you think the best of the two?-The best
for the Shetland fishermen is to have their share. Our men are
better paid than the Englishmen.
12,609. Do they take more from their shares than the Englishmen
take from their wages, as a rule?-Yes. I know the amount of
their earnings.
12,610. I have been requested to ask you this question: In what
number of boats, fishing at one station to different curers, would
these men be willing to accept the value of a week's fishing,
probably amounting to £20, and carry to their homes by sea, or
undertake the subdivision of them more frequently than once
annually, that at present?-I think I have answered that, or almost
that question already. I have already said that I believe the men
would refuse to adopt that system.
12,611. Is that in consequence of the trouble it would entail in
dividing the fish?-Yes, and the time taken up with it. Besides,
they don't require it.
12,612. How do you account for the English boats coming north to
compete with the Shetland crews, although they receive less for
their fishing than the Shetland fishermen do?-They are fishing all
the year round, and they come north to fill up their time when
fresh fish do not pay them on their own coasts.
12,613. Fishing is their only employment?-Yes.
12,614. You think it is not likely to become the only employment
of Shetland fishermen?-Not generally.
12,615. And you think it is not expedient that it should?-I don't
think it is. I think they all require something to do on the land as
well.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, examined.
12,616. Are you a fisherman and tenant in Skerries?-I am.
12,617. Who is your landlord?-Mr. Bruce.
12,618. Do you pay your rent to him?-No, to Mr. Adie.
12,619. Is he your tacksman?-Yes.
12,620. Who do you fish for?-Mr. Adie.
12,621. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie, or can you engage to
fish with anybody you like?-We are bound to fish for Mr. Adie.
12,622. How do you know that?-Because Mr. Adie told us we
were not at liberty to fish for any other man except him.
12,623. When did he tell you that?-I cannot state the date
exactly, but it has been since I commenced to fish there, eighteen
years ago. That was the time when the agreement was made last.
12,624. What agreement?-That we were to deliver all our
produce, fish, and every other thing, to him, and to no one else.
12,625. If you chose to fish for anybody else, what was the penalty
to be?-That we were to be removed from our crofts.
12,626. Has any person been removed for fishing to another than
Mr. Adie?-None, for there have been no offenders.
12,627. How many people are in these lands?-There are almost
130 of a population, old and young. There are six boats belonging
to the islands that fish for Mr. Adie.
12,628. Do a number of people come there in the summer time
from other places to fish?-Yes. They fish both to Mr. Adie and
to Mr. Robertson. These are the only two who employ men there.
12,629. Has Mr. Robertson a station and a shop there?-Yes; he
has a store for supplying his fishermen.
12,630. Is it open all the year round?-No, only during the fishing
season.
12,631. Where do you get your supplies?-From Mr. Adie's shop
at Skerries. It is open all the year round, and is kept by Robert
Umphray.
12,632. Do you pay for your supplies at the time you get them, or
do you settle for them at the end of the year?-Sometimes at the
end of the year, and sometimes not for fifteen months.
12,633. How does it happen that you are sometimes fifteen months
in settling?-We live in an isolated place, and Mr. Adie's people
cannot sometimes get conveniently exactly at the twelvemonth's
end, but they make arrangements to come when they please.
12,634. Is it sometimes late in the spring before they come to
settle?-Sometimes we have not settled until March, but the usual
time is at Martinmas.
12,635. Have you any objection to that state of things?-The only
objection I have to it is that we do not have our freedom to fish to
the person who will pay us best, and we should also like to be able
to get our goods from the best market we can, and at the cheapest
price we can.,
12,636. Can you not get your goods from any market you please
just now?-No.
12,637. Why?-Because we cannot get our pay in hand.
12,638. Can you not get cash from Mr. Adie or from Mr. Umphray
when you ask for it?-Yes, if we have it to get.
12,639. If you want supplies during the season, before the
settlement comes, do you get them?-Yes, we can get our
supplies then, as far as our earnings are likely to cover them.
12,640. Have you ever been restricted?-Yes; they only allow us
to go so far as our earnings are likely to pay, and no further.
12,641. Have you ever been refused supplies?-Yes. I cannot give
the date of that, but I have been put on an allowance both of meal
and other things.
12,642. Did you get a certain amount of goods from the store each
week?-Yes, each Saturday night.
12,643. How often have you been put upon that allowance?-That
is always done, unless we can clear ourselves in Mr. Adies book.
12,644. When were you last put upon an allowance?-In 1869.
12,645. Was that a year of scarcity?-In our isolated place there is
generally scarcity, because our crops are scanty.
12,646. Are they not sufficient to keep your families all the year
round?-No.
12,647. Therefore you have every year to buy a certain amount of
meal from Mr. Adie?-Yes, we have generally to buy about six
months' provisions from him.
12,648. Were you put on an allowance in 1869 because you were
in debt?-Yes
12,649. What allowance was made to you then?-Three pecks of
meal a week; and there are seven of us in the family.
12,650. Was that less than you required?-Of course it was, but I
could get no more.
12,651. How much do you use when you are not upon an
allowance?-I could not say exactly, because when I can buy it
for myself I take no notice. I think, however, we would require
about five pecks a week.
12,652. Did you find the allowance of three pecks to be too small
for you?-Of course we did.
12,653. Was the rest of the island put upon an allowance at that
time?-All the indebted men were.
12,654. Were there many of them?-Most of the men in Skerries,
in the fishing line were in debt at that time.
12,655. At what season of the year was that?-In summer.
[Page 314]
12,656. Were there a number of men at that time in the island who
did not live there?-Yes, a great number.
12,657. Were they put on an allowance too?-I could not say as to
that. I can only speak of those who live constantly in the island,
and more especially myself.
12,658. Do you not think it was quite reasonable, that if a person
to whom you were due money was to continue to make you further
advances, he should use his own discretion as to the amount of
these advances?-Of course, if I got the goods at the market price.
I think I ought to have got my meal, or whatever I was requiring, at
the market price in Lerwick, adding something for freight.
12,659. Did you not get it at that rate?-No; I found that I could
buy meal 7s. per sack cheaper in Lerwick than in Skerries; and
from that down to the lowest thing we got, it was generally
charged one-third more than it could be got for in Lerwick or any
place near to it. I have paid for a sack of meal at Mr. Adie's
station at Skerries, when I could have got it from any merchant in
Lerwick at 50s. or 51s.
12,660. That was a difference of 10s.: when did you do that?-I
could not say, but I have done it. I think it was about four years
back.
12,661. Was that before 1869, when you were put on an
allowance?-Yes.
12,662. Were you in debt at that time?-Yes.
12,663. Did you get an advance of a sack of meal at a time, and
were charged 61s. for it?-Yes.
12,664. Where could you have got it in Lerwick for 50s. or 51s.?-
From Mr. John Robertson, senior. I got it from him at that, and
paid the cash down.
12,665. Did you get another sack from Mr. Adie at the same
time?-Yes, at the same date.
12,666. Did you get both of these supplies within month of each
other?-Within a month or two.
12,667. Have you any pass-book or any paper to show that?-No.
12,668. Did you get a receipt from Mr. Robertson for the
money?-No.
12,669. At what season of the year was that?-In January.
12,670. And you think that was about four years ago?-Yes.
12,671. That would probably be about January 1868?-I think so,
but I cannot exactly say.
12,672. Did you buy the meal from Mr. Robertson in your own
name?-One part in my own name, and the other part in the name
of my father, John Hutchison.
12,673. Who gave the order to Mr. Robertson?-I did.
12,674. Did you tell him that one half of the meal was for yourself
and one half for your father?-Yes.
12,675. Do you know whether the purchase was entered in his
books?-I cannot say, for I paid the cash down.
12,676. Do you know anything about the quality of that meal?-It
was just about the same quality as we could get from Mr. Adie.
12,677. Was it before or after you got the meal from Mr.
Robertson, that you bought the sack at 61s. from Mr. Umphray?-
It was after, about two months after at the furthest.
12,678. Did you say anything to him about the price when you got
it?-I did; and Mr. Umphray told me he must sell it at the invoice
price which his master sent to him.
12,679. Did you take the meal at that price?-I was obliged to do
so, when I could not make a better of it.
12,680. Could you not have gone and got some more from Mr.
Robertson?-I could; but I had no expectation of having anything
at the end of the time with which to pay him.
12,681. Did you think Mr. Robertson would not have given it to
you on credit?-I don't think it, for I could not have asked it.
12,682. Do you think Mr. Robertson would have given you the
meal as cheap if you had been buying it on credit?-He would
have given it to me cheaper on credit than Mr. Adie did.
12,683. Is there any other time that you remember, when you
bought meal or any other goods at Adie's shop, and when you
could have got them cheaper elsewhere?-That has happened
every time.
12,684. But did you ever try at what price you could get your
goods at another place in the same way as you did at that time?-
I have done so at times. We can get as many sillock hooks at
Messrs. Hay's shop, at Simbister in Whalsay, for 1d. as we can get
beside us for 11/2d.
12,685. Do you generally buy your sillock hooks at Whalsay?-
No; we generally go for them to the store where we are supplied. I
could also get washing soda in Lerwick for 1d., and we pay 11/2d.
for it at Skerries. I bought 14 lbs. of it in Lerwick yesterday at 1d.
a lb. The last I bought at Skerries was about two months ago, and
it was marked down to me at 11/2d. If I were buying as much as 14
lbs. at a time in Skerries, I would get no discount upon it; I would
still be charged 11/2d. per lb.
12,686. Do many of the people in Skerries go for their supplies to
other places?-No; they all go to Adie's store for them.
12,687. Why do they do that when the prices are so high as you
say?-Because they are bound so far to do it, in this way: that they
fish for him, and all their earnings go to him, and they must go to
the store for whatever supplies they require.
12,688. Do you mean that they are obliged to get their supplies on
credit, and that they have credit nowhere else?-They cannot have
credit anywhere else until they see whether they have any money
to get, and then they can come to Lerwick or any other place with
their money; but they cannot do that at any other time.
12,689. Are you at liberty to sell the produce of your farm to any
person you please?-No. We are under the restriction to take it all
to Mr. Adie's store.
12,690. Who told you that?-Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor.
12,691. Is there anybody else you could sell it to?-No; except in
the summer time, when Mr. Robertson's man is there.
12,692. Have any of you offered to sell to him?-Yes.
12,693. Have you been prevented from doing so?-Yes; we have
been prevented in this way, that we were obliged to go to Mr. Adie
with all that we had, or else we would have been put out of our
crofts.
12,694. Did anybody ever interfere with you selling to Mr.
Robertson?-If it had been known that it had been done, they
would have interfered; but no man, so far as I know, ever put the
produce of his farm or of his fishing past Mr. Adie.
12,695. Do you know of any person being fined for selling to Mr.
Robertson's man?-No; but I know that my father was fined 2s.
6d. for selling a dozen of eggs to a man at the lighthouse station.
That was in 1858.
12,696. Was that by Mr. Umphray?-Yes.
12,697. Was he Mr. Adie's factor at that time?-Yes.
12,698. Do you know of anybody having been fined in the same
way since?-No; except men going to Greenland, or going any
other way where they think they can be better. They are fined in
this way, that every man, young and old, on the island, is obliged
to fish for Mr. Adie.
12,699. But if a man goes to Greenland he is not on the island?-
No; and it is for that reason he is fined.
12,700. But if he is not on the island, how can he be fined?-He
comes back in the winter.
12,701. Who has been fined in that way?-I was fined, for one, in
1855.
12,702. Have you been at the Greenland fishing since that?-No.
12,703. Have you been away from the island since?-No.
12,704. Why have you not gone since?-Because I became a
tenant of Mr. Adie then, and I had to stick by that and fish for him.
12,705. Were you not a tenant of his at the time when you were
fined?-No.
[Page 315]
12,706. Then why did you pay the fine?-I must either pay the
fine, or my father would have been warned away for me.
12,707. Were you told that your father would be put away if you
did not pay the fine?-Yes.
12,708. How much did you pay?-£2.
12,709. To whom did you pay it?-To Mr. Adie himself.
12,710. Did you get a receipt for it?-No.
12,711. Was it put down to your account?-Yes.
12,712. Was it ever repaid to you?-It was never repaid to me, but
these fines were repaid to some others. It was repaid to Andrew
Williamson, for one. There were six men belonging to Skerries
who went to Greenland in 1855, and they were all fined £2 each.
12,713. That is a very old story. Did it ever happen again?-No.
12,714. Have men gone to Greenland from Skerries since then?-
Yes.
12,715. And they have not been fined?-No.
12,716. How did they escape?-I cannot say.
12,717. They just had their liberty, and nothing was said to
them?-Nothing.
12,718. Do you think the fines imposed on these six men served as
a warning?-I don't think so.
12,719. That did not prevent other men from going to
Greenland?-No, not for a few years back.
12,720. But did it do so at the time?-No; some men went to
Greenland immediately after that, and were not fined. I think the
fines were imposed on these six men in order to try to stop them
from going there; but it did not have that effect, and it was not
attempted again.
12,721. Why did you not get back your fine, when it was repaid to
Williamson and the other men?-I never asked it back.
12,722. Have you or anybody else been fined for that, or for selling
your goods to other people, since 1855?-No.
12,723. Except on that one occasion in 1858, when your father was
fined for selling eggs?-Yes.
12,724. Can you sell your eggs to the lighthouse keepers now, or to
any person you please?-Yes.
12,725. You are not bound now to sell them to Mr. Umphray?-
Not so far as I know.
12,726. Have you sold eggs to Mr. Robertson's man within the last
year or two?-Yes.
12,727. How do you sell your beasts?-To Mr. Adie.
12,728. Can you not sell them to any person you like?-Yes; but
the cash must be returned to him.
12,729. You mean the cash must be handed to because you must
pay your debts?-Yes.
12,730. Is there anything else you wish to say about Skerries?-
Nothing, except that I may state, on behalf of all the men who are
in the town now from Skerries, that they would like their freedom
to fish for any man who would pay them best, and be allowed to
get whatever they require from the cheapest market.
12,731. Supposing you had your freedom, is there one to whom
you could sell your fish for a better price than Mr. Adie allows?-
There are no others at the present time, so far as I know; but
opposition might arise if there were more buyers than one, and if
we had our freedom.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, PETER HENDERSON, examined.
12,732. Are you a fisherman and farmer in Skerries?-I am.
12,733. How long have you been there?-This is the second year
since I came there, but I was born in Skerries. I have been living
in the North Isles for about twelve years.
12,734. Are you bound to fish for Mr. Adie?-Yes.
12,735. How do you know that?-I just know it in the same way
that the rest of the tenants know it. He is our tacksmaster, and of
course we have to fish for him.
12,736. When you took your bit of land two years ago from him,
were you told that you must fish for him?-Yes. Mr. Umphray
told me so.
12,737. Did Mr. Umphray let the land and agree with you about
it?-Yes.
12,738. He told you at the time that you must fish for Mr. Adie,
and you entered into that agreement, quite understanding what it
was?-Yes.
12,739. Do you take your supplies from Mr. Adie's shop, and
settle up every year at settling time?-Yes. I have always had a
balance to get then.
12,740. Did you get money besides that in the course of the season
if you wanted it?-Yes, when I asked for it.
12,741. Did you ask for much?-No; perhaps for £1 or so, when I
required it.
12,742. Were you at liberty to buy your supplies at any other place
you liked?-Yes, if I had money to give for them.
12,743. Could you have got money?-I did not ask it for that.
12,744. If you had asked for money with which to go and buy
your meal and tea in Lerwick, would you have got it from Mr.
Umphray?-I don't know that. If he had known it was my
intention to go with it to other parties, I don't think he would have
given it to me, because he would have wanted for himself any
profit there was upon it.
12,745. Have you any reason for supposing so?-I have only my
own reasons for supposing it, and I would think so.
12,746. Has he ever told you that he expects you to buy your goods
at his shop?-No. He has never said anything about that.
12,747. Has he ever had any occasion to tell you that?-No.
12,748. Do you think he would tell you that if you went and got
your goods in Lerwick or in Whalsay?-I don't know.
12,749. Have you ever been fined for selling your produce to
anybody else or for fishing for another than Mr. Adie?-No.
12,750. Do you want to have liberty to fish for another?-Of
course we should like to fish for any one who would pay us most.
12,751. But you came voluntarily to Skerries two years ago,
knowing that you could fish only for Mr. Adie there
12,752. Why do you object to that now?-I don't object to it, only
I should like if I could get more for my produce.
12,753. Do you think you could get more for it from any one
else?-I don't think I could get more for it at the present time,
because Mr. Adie is paying as high price as any other man.
12,754. Why did you go to Skerries?-Circumstances led me to
go. I could not keep the land I was on, because the rent was too
high. That was in Fetlar.
12,755. Do you get your land cheaper in Skerries?-I have only
half a house and land in Skerries, but I could not get that chance in
Fetlar. I had a heavy tack of land there, and I was not able to pay
for it.
12,756. Do you know anything about the price and quality of
provisions in Skerries?-They are dearer than in Lerwick. I
bought a boll of meal in Lerwick yesterday from R. & C.
Robertson's, to take home with me, and paid 19s. 6d. for it,
while the price in Skerries just now is 23s. I have not bought so
much there lately, but I know by the peck price that that is the
price of it. I bought a peck lately, and it was marked down to me
at 1s. 4d.
12,757. Would it not have been less if you had bought a boll?-It
might have been a little less, but not much.
12,758. To whom do you sell your cattle?-To Mr. Adie.
12,759. Do all the people in Skerries sell their cattle to him?-
They generally go to the roup at Voe, and have a chance of selling
them there.
[Page 316]
12,760. Do they take their cattle or ponies all the way to Voe?-
There are no ponies in Skerries.
12,761. Are you paid in money for your cattle at the time of the
roup?-Yes, if we want it. Of course Mr. Adie does not like to
pay us the whole of it in money if we are in his debt, but if a man
is clear he gets whatever he wants.
12,762. If a man is clear does he always get his money down, or
is it put into his account?-If he wants to leave it in Mr. Adie's
hands he will get interest for his money, but if he wants the money
itself it will be paid down to him.
12,763. What are the usual earnings in the summer fishing?-They
vary according as we are successful or not. Last, summer I think I
had £18, 6s. for my fish from April to Lammas.
12,764. Did you catch some fish in the winter and early spring,
before that?-Very little. I got perhaps 30s. for them.
12,765. Is the fishing of the Skerries men in summer as large as
that of the men who come from the mainland?-Yes. Most of the
Skerries boats are quite as well fished as the boats that come from
the mainland.
12,766. Had you as much money to get as most of the mainland
men?-I believe I had. I don't think there were any who were
much above me.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, THOMAS HUTCHINSON, recalled.
12,767. How much did you get for your summer fishing last
year?-£17, 19s.
12,768. Was that as much as most of the mainland men got, so far
as you know?-Yes. I don't know what money they actually got;
but I know the number of cwts. they took, and I know that none of
them had much more than me. The highest of the mainland boats
had 252 cwts., while our boat, which was manned entirely by
Skerries men, had 246 cwts. 1 qr. 18 lbs. The mainland boat I
have mentioned was one of Mr. John Robertson's. Ours was the
highest fished boat belonging to Mr. Adie at Skerries. The six
boats belonging to Skerries had all about the same take.
12,769. Do you think the Skerries boats generally had a smaller
number of cwts. than the mainland boats?-In general they had
more.
12,770. Was that because they lost less time in coming and going
to the fishing?-Yes. The Skerries men had the advantage of
Friday afternoon and Saturday above the Lunnasting men, who
went home at the end of every week on the Friday afternoon, and
did not return until Monday about twelve o'clock.
12,771. You had thus a longer time at the fishing than the
Lunnasting men. How do you account for it that you had not
one-third more fish than they?-I just account for it by chance
or fortune.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, DAVID ANDERSON, examined.
12,772. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am. I have been there
since I was a child.
12,773. Do you hold a bit of land?-Yes.
12,774. Do you consider yourself bound to fish for Mr. Adie?-
Yes, the same as any other.
12,775. Were you told so?-I was not; but my father was when he
signed his agreement for the land, about twenty years ago. I have
the half of the farm with him.
12,776. Have you ever been fined or found fault with for fishing to
another, or for selling the produce of your farm to any one else
than Mr. Adie?-Never.
12,777. I suppose there has been no occasion to do so?-No.
12,778. Have you ever sold fish, or eggs, or butter, or cattle to any
one except Mr. Adie?-No.
12,779. Have you always got as good a price from him as you
could have got anywhere else?-I usually got the currency.
12,780. Do you think you would have been better off if you had
had liberty to deal with another?-I don't know that I would.
12,781. Have you any wish for a change?-No.
12,782. Are you content as you are?-Yes.
12,783. Do you think the evidence of the two previous witnesses
was correct with regard to the price and quality of the goods at
Skerries?-Quite correct.
12,784. Are the goods dearer at Skerries than they are
elsewhere?-Yes.
12,785. But you have no wish for a change, and are quite content
to go on paying the higher prices?-I am merely content to fish for
Mr. Adie as well as for another; but I think the prices which he
charges for his goods in the shop are far too dear.
12,786. But you are not bound to take all your goods from his
shop?-No, not if I had the money.
12,787. Do you not get the money at settling time?-Yes, at
settling time I do; but hardly as much as will keep me going for
a twelvemonth, and I must go to him for some supplies.
12,788. Do you not get enough money at settling time to carry you
on for two or three months?-Yes.
12,789. After that could you not get credit from any other shop
where you could get your goods cheaper?-I have no doubt I could
if I knew that I could pay my account at the twelvemonth's end.
12,790. But if you had credit at another shop where you could get
your supplies cheaper, and if you got no credit from him, you
could get all your money from him at settlement, instead of having
part of it in supplies?-I could, but we have our rent to pay to him
annually. In the meantime we might have a good fishing or a bad
fishing, as Providence sends it. If we had a good fishing, we might
have enough money to pay the men from whom we had got credit;
but if not, we would not have plenty of money and then how could
we pay our accounts?
12,791. Does not Mr. Adie take the same chance with you?-Yes.
12,792. You might have no money to pay him for the credit he has
given you?-That is quite true.
12,793. Therefore he has to wait for payment just as another
merchant would have to wait for payment, if you get your goods
on credit from him?-Yes.
12,794. Then why do you think that another merchant would not
give you credit?-There is no doubt we would get plenty of credit.
12,795. Have you ever compared the prices of goods at Skerries
with what you could get them for at any other place?-Yes; and
everything is dearer there than it is in Lerwick. For instance,
cotton is always from 2d. to 21/2d. a yard dearer at Skerries than at
Lerwick. I have bought cotton of the same quality at both places
for oiling, and I found there was that difference in the price. Then
last year I bought a sack of meal in Lerwick for 42s., and we were
paying 46s. in Skerries for it at that time. It was in February last
year that I bought it in Lerwick, from Mr. Charles Robertson, and I
bought some in Skerries in April or May. I think the freight to
Skerries is 8d. a sack. We generally get it conveyed by Mr. John
Robertson's packet when we buy it in Lerwick, and I think his
charge for it is 8d.
12,796. Were these two purchases of meal of the same quality?-
Just about the same.
Lerwick, January 24, 1872, ALEXANDER HUMPHRAY, examined.
12,797. Are you a fisherman in Skerries?-I am.
12,798. You are not a tenant yourself?-No. My father is a tenant,
and I live with him.
[Page 317]
12,799. Do you fish to Mr. Adie?-Yes.
12,800. Are you not at liberty to fish for any other person?-I
don't know. I am in my father's boat, and therefore I cannot get
clear. I would like to oblige Mr. Adie as far as possible by going
in his boat; but if we have fish to sell, and if there is another
merchant in Skerries who would buy the fish, and perhaps give
us 3d. or 6d. per cwt. more for them, we cannot sell them to him.
We must give them all to Mr. Adie.
12,801. How do you know that?-Because we have seen it.
12,802. When did you see it?-About four years ago. There was
another merchant there, who was giving more for the fish, but I
could not leave the boat and go to him when the other men in the
boat were bound to give their fish to Mr. Adie.
12,803. Did you think you were free at that time?-I did not know.
I thought Mr. Adie could pay as much as any other man for fish,
but he would not do it; and I could not take my fish out of the boat
and sell them to another man when all the other men were selling
their fish to Mr. Adie. It would not have looked right.
12,804. Who was the other merchant?-Mr. John Hughson, Yell.
He was offering 3d. per cwt. more, and yet we could not give him
our fish.
12,805. Did you try to take your fish away to him?-I did not try.
I would have liked to have done it, but the fish had been weighed
before I could get my share, and it would not have looked well to
have taken them away.
12,806. Did you speak about that at the time?-Yes, I spoke about
it to Mr. Umphray, Mr. Adie's factor, and he said we must give
our fish to him, as we were bound to do so.
12,807. Have you ever been at Faroe or Greenland?-I have been
fishing to Mr. Adie at Skerries all along.
12,808. Were you employed as a beach boy there at one time?-
Yes, for two years. That was five years ago. The regular fee then
was £3 for three-fourths of the year, and £4 for a splitter.
12,809. When you were engaged as a beach boy, did you get most
of your payment in supplies?-Yes.
12,810. You were settled with at the end of the year?-Yes; and I
was buying their goods at the same time.
12,811. How much of your fee did you get at the end of the
year?-I got £1 the first year. My father did as much for me as
he could, so that I did not require to buy meal from him. I got
about £1 at the end of the second year also.
12,812. When you were a beach boy, could you not get your cash
in hand if you asked for it in advance in the course of the year?-I
know we might have got 1s. or 2s. to serve a particular purpose,
but no more.
12,813. Were you expected to take it out in supplies?-Yes.
12,814. If you had asked it by the week, would you have got it?-
No; they said they would not give it until the end of the season,
and it was fixed then according to the amount of fish that had been
taken.
12,815. Was not your beach fee a uniform sum, whatever kind of
fishing there was?-No; there was a sum fixed at the beginning of
the year, and then at the end of the season they gave us what they
liked.
12,816. Is that the practice still?-Yes.
12,817. If it is a good fishing, the beach fee is fixed higher?-Yes.
12,818. And you think it is always higher in proportion to the
success of the fishing?-Yes; and according to the number of
years you have been at the work.
12,819. How many beach boys and men are employed at Mr.
Adie's station in Skerries?-There are usually about six boys and
two splitters. In some years there are eight, and I have seen as few
as three and four. They settle with us at Skerries, in Mr. Adie's
house there, not in the shop. They brought the books over from
Voe.
12,820. When you were settled with at the end of the year, were
you asked if you wanted anything?-No.
12,821. You were paid the money?-Yes, whatever I had to get. If
I was due £1 or £10, there was 1s. per pound of interest charged
against me, and that was done with every one in Skerries. I knew
a man who was due £14 last year, and he had to pay 14s., but he
cleared himself this year. If a man's debt is above £40, that is £2 a
year he has to pay, and they never can get out of debt.
12,822. Are there many men who are due above £40, and who
never get out of debt?-As far as I can learn, there is one.
12,823. How do you know that he never will get out of debt?-
Unless better times come, I don't know how he can. He will not
be able to do it with the present fishings.
12,824. Has he been long in debt in that way?-I believe he has
been for a good while. Sometimes the debt may be £1 more or £1
less but the interest is always charged.
12,825. Have you sometimes had a balance to get at the end of the
year?-Yes; sometimes I may have had £5 or £6 to get, and
sometimes nothing.
12,826. When you have a balance of that kind to get, does Mr.
Umphray never ask you if you want any goods?-He never says
anything. We just please ourselves. I would never take anything
from the shop at Skerries if I could get it in Lerwick, because
everything is overpriced there. For instance, there is soap and
soda. You cannot get a bit of soap there under 6d. a lb., and soda
is 11/2d., while here it is 1d. Everything I could mention is dearer
there than here. Sugar is 5d. and 6d. there, and I know that in
Lerwick we can get as good for 5d. as we get there for 6d. If we
were paid money every time we come on shore with our fish, or
every time we want it, we would be able to get our things very
much cheaper from other places.
12,827. Are you sure the sugar which you pay 6d. for in Skerries is
not better than you would get for 5d. here?-I don't think it is.
We pay 7d. for hard sugar there, and we can get the same kind for
6d. here.
12,828. Would you not have a long way to go from Skerries in
order to get your goods cheaper, even although you had your
money in your hands?-There is a packet going to Whalsay every
week, and goods are almost as cheap there as in Lerwick. They
are far cheaper than in Skerries, and it is the same freight to
Whalsay.
12,829. I suppose it is not very easy to get goods carried to
Skerries?-Unless from Whalsay it is not very easy. We can
get them quarterly; but we could get them every week by the
packet to Whalsay, by sending a letter to Lerwick, and then we
could get them brought to Skerries when we had a chance.
12,830. Does Mr. Robertson's packet only go in the summer
season?-Yes; but the Commissioners' mail packet comes every
week to Whalsay, and any of us could go over there and bring
whatever small thing we wanted.
<Adjourned>.
[Page 318]
BODDAM, DUNROSSNESS, FRIDAY, JANUARY 26, 1872
ROBERT HENDERSON, examined.
12,831. You are the son of Mr. Gavin Henderson, who is a
merchant at Scousburgh, Dunrossness?-I am.
12,832. You have charge of his business now?-Yes, mostly.
12,833. Are you in partnership with him?-No.
12,834. You are his manager?-Yes.
12,835. Of what does your stock consist?-It is most impossible to
say. It consists of drapery goods, groceries, ironmongery, coal,
and I don't know what more.
12,836. Do you buy some hosiery?-A little; and we buy eggs as
well.
12,837. I believe you have about the largest business in the
neighbourhood?-We do a reasonable business.
12,838. You are not engaged in the fishing in any way?-We buy
fish, but we have no boats of our own.
12,839. From whom do you buy fish?-From any parties who
present them to us. We buy scarcely any in summer. It is mostly
in winter that we get them, because in the summer months the
boats are all engaged to certain fish-merchants, and the men sell
their fish to them or to the proprietors.
12,840. Is it generally the proprietors who have the fishing in their
own hands?-Some of them have, and some have not. Mr. Bruce
of Simbister does not have the fishing in his hands; the others
have.
12,841. To whom do Mr. Bruce of Simbister's tenants generally
fish?-His tenants on the west side, those round us, fish for Mr.
John Robertson, jun., Lerwick, and for Mr. Robert Mullay,
Lerwick.
12,842. How many boats has Mr. Mullay?-I don't know exactly;
perhaps seven or eight. He has a station at Ireland, and Mr.
Robertson, jun. has one at Spiggie. They have no shops there.
They have only the stations hired from Mr. Bruce. Those of Mr.
Bruce's tenants who fish from Spiggie are bound to fish for Mr.
Robertson during the summer months, and those who fish from
Ireland at that time are bound to fish for Mr. Mullay.
12,843. Do you understand that these tenants are bound to fish for
these merchants?-Yes.
12,844. Is that the understanding in the district?-Yes; but during
the summer months only.
12,845. Do you know that from the men themselves?-Yes.
12,846. Have they often told you that they are bound to fish for
these tacksmen?-They have often told me that; but they are not
tacksmen, they only have the stations.
12,847. Do these men deal a great deal at your shop?-Yes.
12,848. Have they ever told you in what way they are bound, or
how they know they are bound?-Robert Robertson, of Noss, once
wished to have liberty to dry his fish for himself, and to fish from
Spiggie, and he would force a beach for himself quite apart from
Mr. Robertson's beach, but he was refused liberty.
12,849. When was that?-I could not say; it was about four or five
years ago, I think.
12,850. Do you know any one else who was interfered with in the
same way?-I know a man from Ireland who was obliged to beach
and draw his boat in a ghive some distance from Ireland, in order
to sell his fish to Charles Nicholson, Scalloway. His name was
Gavin Goudie.
12,851. Are these the only curers for whom the tenants of Mr.
Bruce of Simbister fish?-No. If they do not fish from Spiggie or
from Ireland, they are at liberty to fish for whom they like. They
can dry their fish or sell them wet, just as they please. A good
many of them fish from about Scatness and West Voe, and sell
their fish to Hay & Co. A few of them fish from Voe, and sell
their fish to Mr. Grierson of Quendale.
12,852. But they are at liberty to sell to any person they like?-
Yes. Mr. Grierson of Quendale has a station at Voe in tack, and
the fishermen are not bound to fish for him unless they like.
12,853. Have you dealings with all the fishermen in your
neighbourhood on the Simbister estate?-Not with all, but
with most of them.
12,854. And also with some on the Sumburgh and Quendale
estates?-Yes.
12,855. Are your transactions with these men generally paid for in
cash, or do you run accounts with them?-We run accounts with
them partly, and their purchases are paid in cash partly.
12,856. Do you run accounts with them for any length of time?-
For a year. There is only a yearly settlement here, and we run
accounts with them to the end of the year, when they settle with
their fish-merchants. Then, as a rule, they pay us, though there are
exceptions.
12,857. How do these exceptions occur?-Perhaps they are not
able to pay us.
12,858. I suppose you are not very willing to give long credits in
that way?-No. We would wish very much to have the credit
system done away with; but we must do it.
12,859. You have not got the same security as a curer for whom
the men are fishing?-No.
12,860. Do you think that more of the fishermen would deal with
you if you were able to afford them the same credit as they get
from the curers?-It is very likely they would.
12,861. But you restrict their credits?-Yes.
12,862. Have you understood from any of the fishermen, that they
are obliged to deal at Grutness or Quendale in order that they may
get their goods on credit?-Mr. Bruce, so far, as I know, does not
interfere with his men with regard to the purchase of their
groceries or goods. If they buy at Grutness, I suppose it will be so
much the better; but if they did not buy there, I never heard any of
them say that Mr. Bruce would say anything to them.
12,863. That is not the question. What I asked was, whether the
fact that they can get a longer credit there, and there only, and that
they have no ready money, obliged them to go to these shops?-
Very often it does.
12,864. Do you know that from the statements of the fishermen
themselves?-Yes.
12,865. Is it a common feeling amongst men with whom you
come in contact, that they would like to have liberty to fish for
themselves?-Yes, very much so.
12,866. Do they speak as if they felt that the restriction which is
put upon them with regard to fishing is also a restriction as to the
shop at which they are to deal?-If they have no cash, it comes to
be a restriction. What the men want is to have the stations in their
own power, so as to be able to dry their fish for themselves, or to
sell to whom they like. That would give a competition in trade;
but while the fishermen are bound to fish to certain parties, it
causes a monopoly in trade.
12,867. What is about the utmost amount to which you can allow
an account to run in the course of the year?-It depends very
much upon the position of the party who is running the account.
Ordinarily we allow an account with fishermen to run from 30s. to
£2, but some of them run accounts up to £10.
12,868. Have you any men on the Sumburgh or Quendale estates
who have run up accounts as high as £8 or [Page 319]£10?-Not
on Sumburgh or Quendale to that extent; but I daresay some of
them do run up accounts to the extent of £5 or £6 or £7.
12,869. Are the men who run accounts to that extent fewer upon
these estates than upon the Simbister estate and the other estates in
the district?-We don't run such heavy accounts as that with any
men at all, unless they have something else to fall back upon
12,870. What was about the average price of your meal in 1870?-
It varied very much. Before the French War broke out, the meal
was very low. I remember that in the first of the season we were
selling oatmeal for 17s. per boll, or 34s. a sack.
12,871. How much was that per lispund?-4s. 3d.; and it rose
throughout the season to about 21s. 6d. or 22s., or 5s. 6d. per
lispund.
12,872. Is the lispund less than a quarter boll?-We give it nearly
about the same size. We give 34 lbs. to a lispund.
12,873 Is that usual in the country?-No; 32 lbs is the usual
measure. We give 8 lbs. for a peck, and charge a less price for it
than for a quarter of a lispund. We have the meal in boll bags,
and when parties want a boll we sell it without breaking bulk.
12,874. Would you look over your books for 1870, and ascertain
the highest and the lowest price at which you bought and sold meal
in the course of that year?-Yes.*
12,875 At what are you selling tobacco?-We sell Irish roll at
11d. per quarter, and mid at 1s. per quarter. We sell the mid at
31/2d. per ounce, or 6d. for 2 ounces.
12,876 What is the price of the best quality of soft sugar?-We
sell soft brown sugar at 5d. per lb. We sell our best crushed sugar
at 6d., and hard sugar at 61/2d.
12,877 Do you sell lines?-Sometimes. Our price for 2-lb. lines
is 2s., for 21/4-lb. lines 2s. 3d., and for hooks is 8d. per 100.
12,878. Are these quite as good as are sold by your neighbours?-I
suppose they are. We sell them freely.
12,879. What is the price of a 60-fathom line?-We don't keep
these, but they generally come to about 1s. per lb. The price
depends upon the weight. When we buy fish we do so at a stated
price, which is fixed at the time of the purchase Most of the fish
we buy are in the winter time, from those tenants of Mr. Bruce
who fish for Hay & Co. and Mr. Robertson and Mr. Mullay in
summer. In winter they are free to sell to whom they like; and we
put a price on the fish, and give them cash over the counter when
the fish are delivered.
12,880. Do they sometimes take away the price of their fish in
goods?-They can please themselves. We pay them cash, and
they buy goods or not as they like
12,881. Do you always give them cash?-Yes, when we have got
it. Sometimes we may give them an I O U, and others prefer to
have the amount put to their accounts but the fish are bought at a
certain price, and that is divided at the time amongst the men.
12,882. In winter the boat's crew, I suppose, consists of 3 or 4
men?-Yes.
12,883. Is any difficulty experienced in fixing the shares of the
men at the time?-No. The price is just divided among them
according to the way in which they want it.
12,884. You ascertain the price of the whole catch of the boat, and
then each man takes his third or his fourth, as the case may be?-
Yes, whatever the catch may be, each man gets his share of it.
12,885. Would there be any difficulty in paying for the fish in that
way in the summer fishing?-In the summer fishing it would not
work very well, because it would not do to give the men their cash
just off-hand; but there is a way in which it could be done equally
well. Suppose the men knew what the price of the fish was to be,
the amount could be left in the hands of the parties who bought
their fish from them. They don't require to draw all their money at
once.
12,886. Do you mean that they could draw some of it?-Yes.
What I hear the men complain of is, that they don't know what
price they are to get for their fish until the end of the season;
but if they had the fishing in their own hands, so that they could
sell to whom they liked, they could make their bargain at the
commencement of the season if they chose, in the same way as
the herring fishing is carried on at Wick.
12,887. Or they might fix the price from week to week, or from
month to month?-Yes. If there were several parties who were at
liberty to buy the fish from the men, that would cause competition
in the market, and the probability is the price would go higher.
12,888. But you think it would not work so well to have the men
paid every time the boat came in in summer?-I don't think it
would, because they would be liable to spend the money.
12,889. Is that the only reason why you think that system would
not work?-Yes, the only reason.
12,890. Would there be any difficulty in settling?-We don't
experience any difficulty in settling with our men.
12,891. Might it not require a curer at a station such as Spiggie or
Ireland, or at a more distant place, to have a more efficient factor
there than he would otherwise have, and perhaps also to keep
money there?-That might be avoided. For instance, Mr. Irvine
has some workmen here who work for him in building houses and
other things; and he tells their foreman to hand us in a note of their
time every fortnight, in order that we may settle up with the men.
The men don't choose to draw their money whenever it falls due;
but we give the foreman a few pounds, and he gives them as much
money as they like to draw. Some of them don't draw any of their
wages until the end of the season, when they get it to pay their
rents with; and the fishing might be managed in the same way.
12,892. Are those masons and labourers who are employed by Mr.
Irvine?-Yes; on the Simbister estate. Of course they know the
money is there, and they can draw it every fortnight if they like;
but there is nothing to prevent them from leaving it until the end of
the season, or whenever they wish to square up.
12,893. I suppose these men very often have accounts running at
the same time?-Some of them have, and some have not; but that
is quite a distinct matter. Their wages are always paid to them in
cash.
12,894. But they often don't choose to ask for it?-They
sometimes don't choose to ask for it till the end of the season.
12,895. Do you think they have a fear themselves that it might be
spent if they took it sooner?-It is quite possible they have.
12,896. And they get what they want in the meantime at your shop,
or anywhere else where they can have credit?-They may or they
may not, as they like. That is entirely at their own option; but they
can get supplies of cash from their foreman when they want them.
12,897. Is it the foreman who gives the money to them?-Yes.
We supply the foreman with cash when he wants it; and then he
gives it to the men when they want it, and charges it against them.
12,898. You have a note of the men's time furnished [Page 320] to
you every fortnight by the foreman. What is the purpose of
that?-In order that the accounts may be regularly kept.
12,899. Who keeps the accounts?-We do.
12,900. Do you add up the men's time every fortnight, and make a
note of the amount that is due to each?-Yes.
12,901. In that way, supposing a man has an account with you,
you know whether he has been overdrawing it in goods or
otherwise?-Yes; but he draws the cash from the foreman if he
applies for it, and then the foreman gives us a note of the cash he
has paid, and of the man's time for the fortnight.
12,902. But if the man takes out goods he settles with you?-Yes;
or if he draws the money from the foreman, he pays the goods he
has got from us with it.
12,903. If he has an account with you, in that case he will settle
with you at once?-If he has an account with us he allows his
account to go on, and the foreman pays him cash when he wants
it When he gets cash from the foreman, it is at his own option to
square his account with it or not, as he likes.
12,904. If the man is in your debt, do you still give him the
cash?-Yes.
12,905. But you could retain it if there was any doubt about the
men's solvency?-We always do hand them the cash.
12,906. You have never had occasion to retain it on account of a
man's delay or refusal to pay his debt?-No.
12,907. Do you sometimes get stray lots of fish during the
summer?-Not much. Sometimes, perhaps, we get a 'supper
piltock.' The men take home a few fish for their own family use,
Sometimes a man has large family, and another man has a small
family, but they require to take home an equal number of fish to
each of them; and then the man who does not require so much
sells what he has got extra and that is called a supper piltock.
12,908. I suppose there is not much smuggling of fish going on
here?-I don't think so; not in the summer time.
12,909. But if a man who is bound to fish wants a little ready
money, does he not come to you with a lot of fish?-Not in the
summer time; they would not be safe to do that. They would get
their warning if they sold their fish past their proprietor in the
summer time.
12,910. If it were known?-Yes, if it were known.
12,911. But don't they try to do it sometimes on the sly?-I don't
know that they do.
12,912. You take them all for supper piltocks, if any are brought to
you?-I suppose so.
12,913. Do you buy hosiery upon the system that is usual in the
country?-No; we buy for cash.
12,914. Are you the only merchants in Shetland who do so?-I
don't know; but it is very little hosiery we deal in. We find it very
easy to buy, but very difficult to sell. We are not rightly in the
market. We wish to carry on the hosiery trade on the same
principle as the rest of our business, buying everything at a cash
price, and giving cash for it if it is asked.
12,915. Do you find any unwillingness on the part of the knitters to
take lower prices for their hosiery if they are to be paid for it in
cash?-No, they are ready to sell for lower prices if they can get
cash; and so they may, because sometimes girls come into our
shop with cottons or flowers or other goods which they have
brought from Lerwick, and ask us to exchange them.
12,916. Are you often asked to take flowers in that way?-Not
often, because we refuse to do it, unless they are goods which have
been bought from ourselves. In that case we exchange them; but if
they are bought from other parties we won't take them. We find
that the goods which are offered to us as having been received for
hosiery are very much higher priced than what we would sell the
goods at ourselves.
12,917. Have you been offered goods in that way lately?-Not
lately, because we have refused to take them. The girls have told
us that there is no use asking for cash in Lerwick, because they
won't get it, and they don't ask us to take the goods, because they
know we won't take them.
12,918. Do you remember any case in which you were offered
goods that had been obtained for hosiery at a lower price than they
were nominally sold at to them?-I have been offered goods at a
lower price, certainly, but I could not mention any particular case.
12,919. Has that happened more than once?-It has happened very
often.
12,920. About what amount of business are you doing in hosiery
on that system?-Very little at present.
12,921. Is that because you don't get a sale for it?-Yes. As I
said, we have not got into the market rightly.
12,922. Do you find it difficult to get the hosiery sold at a profit
when you buy it on that system?-Yes.
12,923. Have you been obliged to sell it at something like the price
which you paid for it?-Yes, we don't look for a profit upon
hosiery.
12,924. Then why do you deal in it if you don't look for a
profit?-Because it gives the people a chance of getting cash for
it, and then we have a chance of getting the cash again.
12,925. I suppose that generally you do get the cash again?-
Generally we do; but that is quite optional with the people
themselves.
12,926. Do you pay for hosiery in goods at all?-If they ask for
goods, of course we give them goods; but if they ask for cash they
get it. That is the way in which we do all our business. We put
the goods that we buy at cash prices, and we put the goods that we
sell at cash prices, and it is a matter of indifference to us whether
they ask goods or cash.
12,927. But, in point of fact, the hosiery may be paid for in goods,
and no cash may pass if the party so chooses?-That may happen,
but we don't do it as rule. As a rule, some other party buys the
hosiery who knows better about it than I do, and hands the cash to
the party from whom the hosiery is bought, and then they are at
liberty to buy from us, or from any other person they like.
12,928. Are the eggs which you buy paid for on the same
principle?-They are paid for in goods or cash, as the parties
wish.
12,929. But the custom of the country is to pay for them in
goods?-That is the custom of the country.
12,930. Do you generally find that the people who bring them are
content to take the price, or prefer to take the price of them in
goods?-They often take the price in goods, because they want
them, but at the same time that is quite optional with themselves.
12,931. Are there not two prices for these things, whether they are
paid in goods or cash?-Some parties have two prices, but we
have not. We have only one price. We often prefer to pay the
people in cash when they really want goods, because it saves a
great deal of trouble in settling with them, and then they buy goods
again.
12,932. Do you find that your cash transactions for goods are
generally greater at one season of the year than at another?-Yes,
very much greater. Our busy season for cash commences when the
landlords and fishcurers commence to pay the men for their
season's fishing, and we continue to drive a large trade of that
description until April.
12,933. Do you then find the men beginning to ask for credit more
frequently?-Yes.
12,934. Do you think it would be better for the trade generally, as
well as for the men, if they were paid more frequently, and the
settlements were not so distant?-It would certainly be better for
us if they were paid more frequently, because then we would be
paid more frequently also.
12,935. Do you think it would be better for the men too, and that
they would make a better bargain with their money, or do you
think it is just as well that the money should be kept for them?-I
consider that the money is kept up a great deal too long. For
instance, if the fish-curers paid for the fish at the end of the fishing
season, that is, on 1st September, that might serve the men very
well; but as it is with some parties, it is the 1st of April or the end
of March before they are paid.
[Page 321]
12,936. Are the men sometimes in difficulties with regard to their
supplies, in consequence of that?-No; because if they have
anything to get, they can obtain supplies from the stores of the
fish-merchants. They can get anything they like from them in
goods. Perhaps that is the reason why the settlement is sometimes
so long delayed, because it gives the men the chance of running a
larger account than they would otherwise do and then they have
less cash to get.
12,937. Have you any ground for that statement other than from
mere inference?-No. There is one thing I may mention in
connection with the fishing, that when the men sell their fish
green, the drying of them must be paid for to other parties; but
suppose the men dried the fish themselves, there are often windy
days, when they cannot be at the fishing, and then they work at the
drying of their own fish when they would have been doing nothing
if they had been on-shore. In that way they can dry their fish for
themselves very much cheaper than the fish-curer can dry them.
12,938. But can they do it as well? Do you think the fish cured by
a fisherman himself command as good a market as those cured on
a large scale by a curer?-We have had very little experience in
that matter, because we don't buy fish in that way.
12,939. Do you cure any fish at all?-Yes; we cure the fish which
we buy in the winter time wet.
12,940. How many fish do you sell in the course of a year?-From
10 to 20 tons.
12,941. Do you sell these at what is called the current price?-
There is a current price for the ling fishing, according to which the
fishermen are paid, and we try to get the most out of the fish that
we can.
12,942. Do you generally get above or below what is called the
current price in Shetland?-I don't know, because merchants, as a
rule, don't care about saying much about what they have got for
their fish.
12,943. Are you not consulted by other curers about fixing the
current price?-No; we just act for ourselves.
12,944. Do you get a lower price for winter fish than is given for
summer fish?-Yes, as a rule, we get less for them.
12,945. Your father is present to-day, but he prefers that you
should be examined, as he is not in very good health?-Yes.
*Mr. Henderson afterwards furnished the following statement:-
LIST of OATMEAL invoiced to and sold by Gavin Henderson,
Dunrossness, in 1870.
Date of Invoice.
1870.
a March 11. 24 Bolls Oatmeal, sold by him at 16s. 6d
b " 18. 24 " " 17s. 0d
c April 15. 8 " " 18s. 0d
d May 13. 6 " " 18s. 0d
e " 13. 14 " " 18s. 0d
f June 3. 20. " " 19s. 0d
g 24. 8 " " 19s. 6d
h July 26. 16 " " 21s. 0d
i Aug. 10. 2 " " 22s. 0d
j Sept. 30. 2 " " 19s. 6d
k Nov. 4. 2 " " 19s. 0d.
l 126 Bolls
a ...£19 16 0
b ... 20 8 0
c ... 7 4 0
d ... 5 8 0
e ... 12 12 0
f ... 19 0 0
g ... 7 16 0
h ... 16 16 0
i ... 2 4 0
j ... 1 19 0
k ... 1 18 0
l £115 1 0
Average price sold at per Boll, 18s. 3d, as nearly as has been
ascertained.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, THOMAS TULLOCH,
examined.
12,946. You are a fish-curer and merchant at Lebidden?-Yes.
12,947. Do you employ a number of boats' crews for fishing in
summer?-Yes. I think I had about 20 altogether last year.
12,948. Are the men you employ chiefly tenants on the Simbister
estate?-No; they are on the Sandlodge part of the Sumburgh
estate.
12,949. Are they in any way restricted as to the person to whom
they are to sell their fish?-No.
12,950. Do you also buy fish in winter from any men who choose
to sell them to you?-Yes.
12,951. Have you bought any from tenants on the Quendale
estate?-No, not from Quendale tenants.
12,952. Have you bought any fish in winter from the Sumburgh
tenants in Dunrossness?-No.
12,953. Do you settle with your fishermen annually in the winter,
in the same way as other merchants do?-Yes; once at year.
12,954. Have you a shop at which they run accounts?-Yes.
12,955. I suppose they generally incur an account in the course of
the year, which runs away with part of their earnings?-Yes.
12,956. And you set the one against the other?-Yes.
12,957. Are your boats hired out to the men?-In some cases they
are, but in other cases they are their own boats.
12,958. What is the amount of the boat hire they pay?-£2 for the
summer.
12,959. Do you hire out lines and hooks also?-Very seldom.
12,960. Do you sometimes make an arrangement by which the
men buy a boat and pay for it by instalments?-Yes. It will take
about five years to pay it up.
12,961. Is that arrangement made at the beginning of the
transaction, or do you just sell the boat, and leave the men to pay
it up as they are able?-It is an arrangement which is entered into
at the beginning. They have to pay so much every year,-say £1 a
year from every man.
12,962. Do you find that the men generally manage to settle up for
their boats within the five years?-Yes, about that time.
12,963. How long does at boat last?-Some of them last longer
than others, but I should say that on an average they last about
fifteen or sixteen years.
12,964. Do you pay the same rate for the fish that are caught by
men who own a boat and by those who hire one?-The same.
12,965. Is the price which you pay for your fish generally a higher
one than the current price?-Generally it is a little higher.
12,966. What is the reason for that?-I don't know. We like to get
the services of the men, if possible.
12,967. I understand the current price last year was 8s. for ling?-I
don't think it was so much.
12,968. What did you pay?-I paid 8s. 3d. in 1870, and 8s. 9d. in
1871.
12,969. Do you think the current price was less than 8s.?-I think
so, but I am not quite certain.
12,970. Are you obliged to give a higher price in consequence of
competition among fish-curers in your neighbourhood?-No.
12,971. Then why do you do it?-We just want to satisfy the men.
12,972. Do the men in your district require a higher price than
their neighbours in order to be satisfied?-Yes; they want a higher
price, and it has been paid for some years back.
12,973. Can you account for that in any way?-No. I once got into
the way of giving a little more than the currency, and the men have
always looked for it since.
12,974. Were not the men in your district, until lately, bound to
fish for a tacksman, Robert Mouat?-Not in our district. The men
who fished for him lived at some distance from me.
12,975. Have you settled this year?-Yes.
12,976. What would be about the average amount of cash which
each man had to receive at settlement?-I should say about £4.
12,977. Would the amount of his earning from the fishing be £12
or £15 on an average?-Not so much. It might be about £8 or £9.
12,978. Has the fishing in your neighbourhood been less successful
this year than in other parts of Shetland?-It has been less
successful for some time back, but last year it has done very well;
I should suppose about an average.
12,979. Some of your men, I suppose, would have nothing to take
at settlement?-Yes, some had nothing.
12,980. They had exhausted the amount of their earnings by
advances in shop goods?-Yes, and in money advances too.
The advances were not all in shop goods.
12,981. Do they often ask for advances before the end of the
season?-Often.
12,982. Do you think it would be an advantage if they were paid
more frequently for their fish?-I don't think so. I think they
would not get such high prices.
12,983. Do you mean that if the price were fixed at the beginning
of the season, the merchant would be cautious about fixing a high
price?-Yes.
12,984. But if the prices varied from time to time, according to the
state of the market, would the men not be better to have the money
in their own hands, and then they would have a chance of a
variable price?-In that case they would; but some people don't
know how [Page 322] to take care of their money when they get it.
They don't know how to lay it out.
12,985. If they had money in their own hands, would they not learn
to take care of it?-I don't know. I think it would be rather a
difficult matter to learn some of them.
12,986. What other fish-curers are there in your neighbourhood?-
Mr. Smith. There is no other merchant in the immediate
neighbourhood. Mr. Harrison has also some curing done there.
12,987. Has he a station there?-Yes; it is about mile from my
place.
12,988. How far is Mr. Smith from you?-He is next door.
12,989. Is there not a good deal of competition between you
three?-Not much.
12,990. Are you not all anxious to get a larger number of boats to
fish for you?-Of course.
12,991. Has not that some effect upon the price which you offer
for the fishing?-Perhaps it has a little.
12,992. Do you think if you were the only curer there, you would
be able to get your men to give you their fish for 8s.?-Perhaps I
might, if they could get no other body to take them, and who
would give them more.
12,993. Have you always given the same price as Mr. Smith, or is
there sometimes a difference between you?-There never is any
difference.
12,994. How long have you been in business there?-For fifteen
years.
12,995. How long has he been there?-I think about sixteen or
seventeen years.
12,996. Do his men sometimes shift from him to you, or the other
way?-Yes, sometimes.
12,997. Is there any particular reason for that?-I cannot say; I
suppose it is just their fancy.
12,998. Is a man more likely to shift when he is in your debt, or
when he is out of it?-When he is out of it.
12,999. When he is in your debt, does he like to continue to fish
for you until his debt is paid off?-Sometimes he does.
13,000. Have you any arrangement with Mr. Smith by which,
when a man changes from one place to the other, the new
employer takes in hand the debt which the man is due to his
former employer; or becomes responsible for it?-There is no
arrangement of that kind between us.
13,001. Have you sometimes done that?-I believe I have done it.
13,002. Have you undertaken a debt due to Mr. Smith?-Yes,
when it was not very much.
13,003. And you have got it from the man at the end of the season,
or as soon as he was able to pay it, and handed it over to Mr.
Smith?-Yes; he either got it, or it was set down in his book.
13,004. How often may that have happened?-Not very often.
13,005. Has it been done lately?-Yes.
13,006. I suppose it is not an unusual thing in the fishing trade for
that to be done?-It is not unusual. Of course, the curer that the
man leaves expects him to pay his debt when he does leave.
13,007. Are you responsible to any landlords for the rents of their
tenants?-No.
13,008. Do you, in point of fact, sometimes pay the fishermen's
rents for them?-Yes, to Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh.
13,009. That is to say, the fishermen, instead of getting the money
from you, have the amount of their rent entered in their accounts,
and you pay the whole in a cheque to Mr. Bruce?-Yes; but in
some cases I give the money to the men.
13,010. How do you pay it to the landlord when it is paid by you to
him?-I just give Mr. Bruce a cheque for the whole when it is
collected together.
13,011. How many men's rents may you have paid in that way last
year?-I think about six. I gave money to the others, and they
handed it to Mr. Bruce themselves.
13,012. Is there any arrangement with the landlord that you should
do that?-None.
13,013. Does he sometimes apply to you for the rents of particular
men?-No.
13,014. Do you sometimes buy cattle?-No.
13,015. Do you buy eggs?-Yes.
13,016. Do you pay for them in goods?-Yes.
13,017. Have you two prices for them, as they are paid in goods or
in cash?-No. If the people did want cash I would not like to give
them so much in cash as in goods, because it is cash that I look for
in return.
13,018. But I suppose you are never asked for cash payment for
eggs?-Very seldom.
13,019. What is the price of meal at your shop just now?-I think
Scotch meal is about 5s. a quarter, or 20s. a boll.
13,020. What was it in the summer of 1870?-I don't remember.
13,021. What was it last summer?-I think it was about 5s. or 6s.
up or down, according to the market.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JAMES SMITH, examined.
13,022. You are a merchant and fish-curer at Hill Cottage,
Sandwick?-I am.
13,023. Your shop is near that of Mr. Tulloch?-Yes, next door.
13,024. You have heard his evidence?-Yes.
13,025. Do you conduct your business in the same way?-The
very same.
13,026. How many boats do you employ?-I had about twenty last
summer.
13,027. What did you pay for you fish then?-8s. 9d., and I
understand the current price of the country has been 8s.
13,028. Have you paid 9d. more than the currency?-Yes, on ling.
13,029. Did you pay as much higher a price for cod and tusk?-
No. We paid 7s. for cod and tusk, and I understand the current
price of the country has been 6s. 6d. We paid 4s. 3d. for saith, and
I understand the current price has been 4s.
13,030. Do you generally pay as much above the current price as
you have done last year?-No, not as general thing.
13,031. Can you assign any reason for your price this year being so
much higher?-No, I cannot assign any particular reason.
13,032. Is it not in order that you may get as many fishermen as
you require?-The great reason is to try to please the fishermen as
far as possible; and in our quarter they are very bad to please.
13,033. Why do you want to please them?-To get them to fish for
us. We are anxious to have as many fishermen as possible. There
is one thing which enables Mr. Tulloch and I to pay somewhat
higher prices than the currency; which is, that our curing places
are very near to ourselves, and we can always see the curing
carried on, and can cure cheaper.
13,034. Do any of the fishermen in your district cure for
themselves?-Yes.
13,035. Do you buy from them?-Sometimes. They sell to us if
they choose.
13,036. Do you think the fish which they cure are as good as
yours?-Not unless they have a factor. When they cure them by
their own hands they are never so good.
13,037. What do you mean by them having a factor?-A man set
over the fish to look after the curing of them, the same as I have.
13,038. Do the fishermen who cure for themselves have a
factor?-Yes; the men at our place have a man to whom they pay
so much per ton per every ton of dried fish which are produced.
13,039. In that case, where the fishermen agree to employ a factor,
do you think the curing is as well done as it is by you?-It is, when
they get an experienced man for the purpose.
[Page 323]
13,040. In that case do the men club together in order to buy
implements, vats, and other things for curing?-Yes.
13,041. It is it sort of co-operative system?-Yes.
13,042. Do you do anything in hosiery?-No.
13,043. Do you buy eggs, and pay for them in goods?-Yes.
13,044. Are the prices of the goods in your shop the same as in Mr.
Tulloch's?-They are generally the same.
13,045. What is the price of meal at present?-Scotch oatmeal is
20s. a boll, or 5s. a quarter; Shetland meal is only 3s. or 3s. 6d.
13,046. Is the Shetland oatmeal of much inferior quality?-As a
general thing, it is much inferior. There is not much of it sold.
The people generally use their own meal, and it is much to be
regretted that they require a great deal more than what they can
grow.
13,047. Do you think you could manage to pay your people,
without much inconvenience, as the fish are landed?-I think I
might manage that, but I don't think it would be for the public
good. In the first place, the fishermen would not be able to get the
fishing articles and the quantity of meal they require before the
fishing commenced, because they would not have money to pay for
them. Another reason is, that if they had the money they don't
very well know how to manage it, and it would be spent before
rent time came. Then, if they had no money, the landlord would
have to go and take their corn or their cattle and roup them in order
to get his rent, and the people would be losers.
13,048. Do you think one advantage of the present system is, that it
carries the men through a bad year?-Yes. Last year we had a very
good fishing, but the majority of them had their rents to get. For as
few fishermen as I have, I had to advance them in order to help
them to pay their rents.
13,049. Do you sometimes pay their rents for them?-I do so, as a
general thing. It is expected that the fish-merchant will not see
them at a loss; but, of course, if a ready-money system was
introduced, they could not look to the fish-merchant for any help.
13,050. Why should they not look to him then?-If I only had the
men engaged from voyage to voyage, or from week to week, and
did not have the advantage of knowing that they were to fish for
me next year, it could not be expected that I would advance them
£140 to help them in paying their rents for this year.
13,051. But perhaps they would not need it if they were in the habit
of getting their money?-In my opinion, they would need it more
than they do now.
13,052. Have not other people than fishermen sometimes to pay
rents?-Yes.
13,053. And they manage to have it in hand when the rent day
comes?-Yes; but these people, as a general rule, have bigger
farms, and cattle and ponies that they sell, and that helps them on
with their rents.
13,054. But there are rents to be paid by people who have small
farms, or no farms at all; and if they manage to gather up for their
rent day, might not the fishermen do so as well?-They might do
so; but in our quarter-and I can only speak for it-the great
majority of the people have enough to do when there is a good
season, and when there is a bad one they are far short.
13,055. Then I suppose the reason which you are now assigning
for keeping up the present system is rounded upon your opinion,
that the people of Shetland are less careful and less sensible than
people of the same class in other parts of Scotland?-I don't
believe they are less sensible than the fishermen or men of the
same class elsewhere. I believe there are as competent men in
Shetland, as a general rule, as in any other part of Scotland; but the
fishing is a very fluctuating piece of business, and I think that very
often they could not manage to save up money for their rent if
there was a cash system. Of course there are differences among
them. There are some men in our quarter who are laying past
money, while there are others who are overhead in debt, in spite of
all that can be done for them.
13,056. I understand you have been frequently at Fair Isle?-I
think it is about six or seven years since I was there last, but I was
very often there before. I had a small vessel of my own, and I
went to the Isle to barter goods with the people. I bartered them
for cash, not for fish.
13,057. Did you go there every year for some time?-I went three
or four times in some years, and I continued going for seven or
eight years.
13,058. Did you go as a private speculation of your own?-Yes.
13,059. What kind of goods did you take?-Tea, sugar, tobacco
and cottons.
13,060. Was there any particular reason for giving up that trade?-
No; I was getting tired of it.
13,061. Did you find it a hazardous sort of thing?-It was very
much so: I ran many a risk of losing my life. It was an open
vessel, without a deck, that I went in, and in the winter time the
coast there is very dangerous.
13,062. Was the market open at that time at Fair Isle?-Generally
in the winter time it was.
13,063. Was it not open in the summer time also?-Not so
much, because the man who had it in tack generally supplied the
fishermen at that time with their stores and meal. I made one or
two trips there with meal, because the people sent for me to bring
it, as their master could not get their meal forwarded so quickly
from Orkney as they required it.
13,064. Who was the tacksman then?-John Hughson from
Orkney.
13,065. Have you been there since he ceased to be tacksman?-
Never.
13,066. Was your trade with the Fair Isle people objected to by
him?-He never objected to me.
13,067. Did he object to any one else?-Not to my knowledge.
13,068. Then you could trade with the people as much as you
pleased?-Yes; there was no restriction whatever. I very often
spoke with Mr. Hughson himself.
13,069. Did you stop at the time when Hughson ceased to be
tacksman?-I was almost giving up the trade before he ceased to
be tacksman. His time was not quite run out the last time I was
there.
13,070. Who succeeded Mr. Hughson as tacksman?-Mr. John
Bruce, jun., of Sumburgh.
13,071. You have not been there since he became tacksman?-
Never as a trader. I was there once when a ship was wrecked on
the Seil. I have made a mistake there: I have been once at the
island trading since Mr. Bruce bought it, and I had full liberty from
him to go.
13,072. Did you get express permission from him?-Yes.
13,073. When was that?-I don't remember; it may have been four
or five years ago.
13,074. Why did you ask permission?-He wished me to go in
with goods to the people, and I told him I did not like to go with
freight there unless he would allow me to trade for myself; and
then he gave me full liberty.
13,075. Was Mr. Bruce not sending a vessel of his own at that
time?-He could not get a vessel to go. It is such a nasty coast for
inexperienced men, that it is difficult to get men to venture there.
13,076. You agreed to go only on condition that you had the trade
in your own hands?-Yes; and I had his freight in the meantime.
13,077. Did you understand at that time that you were not at
liberty to trade with the Fair Isle people without Mr. Bruce's
permission?-I did not understand anything about it. He only
asked me to go with freight, and I asked him if I would be at
liberty to trade with the people myself, and he said I would.
13,078. Did he not say that it was only for this special occasion
that you were to have liberty?-He did not.
[Page 324]
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, 1872 JOHN HALCROW,
examined.
13,079. You are a fisherman at Levenwick?-I am.
13,080. On whose property is your ground?-On that of Mr. Bruce
of Simbister.
13,081. Was that ground formerly under tack to Robert Mouat?-
Yes. His tack expired about a year ago; but before that, he had
become bankrupt.
13,082. Were you bound to fish for him?-Yes.
13,083. Were you also obliged to deal at his shop?-No. I had a
little money of my own, and I went to any merchant that I thought
I
could get the best bargain from.
13,084. Did you go to Mouat for a good bargain?-No.
13,085. Why?-Because he never had good bargains. The quality
of his articles was not good, and the price was dearer than that of
any merchant in the neighbourhood.
13,086. Were many men in the habit of dealing with him?-Mr.
Bruce's tenantry both in Channerwick and Levenwick were bound
to fish for him.
13,087. But did they deal with him for shop goods and
provisions?-Yes, almost all of them dealt with him.
13,088. Why?-Because they were bound to do it.
13,089. Were they bound to deal with him for shop goods?-The
fishermen were. They were required to go to him with all their
produce, meal, ponies, and eggs, as well as with their fish.
13,090. But they were not bound to buy their goods from him?-
No; but they had to do so, because he received all their produce,
and they could not go anywhere else. They had no money.
13,091. Would he not give them money for their produce?-Yes,
for such as cattle he would. But it was very few of them who had
any money to get from him.
13,092. Why?-Because they were bound to fish for him, and he
received all their fish.
13,093. But if he received all their fish he would have to pay them
money for them?-It was very hard to get it from him.
13,094. Did he prefer to give them the price in goods?-Yes, if
they would take it.
13,095. And did they take it in goods?-Not very much.
13,096. Why?-Because they were not very good.
13,097. Then they would have money to get, at the end of the year
if they did not take very much in goods?-Yes.
13,098. Did they get the money at the end of the year?-No. He
said he did not have it to give them.
13,099. Then they did not get their money at all?-In some cases
they got it.
13,100. But some of them did not get it?-Yes.
13,101. And some of them did not get goods either?-Yes; they
would not take his goods.
13,102. Then did they go without either money or goods?-Yes.
13,103. Was that often?-I have had to do it myself.
13,104. When was that?-In 1870. He said he had no money to
give me.
13,105. Was that at settlement?-Yes. He had the tack for two
years more at that time, and he gave me a receipt for the rent of
1871. Then he failed; and I had to pay my rent for 1871 over again
to Mr William Irvine.
13,106. Why did you give Mouat your rent for 1871 nearly two
years before it was due?-Because I thought he was to have the
tack for two years more.
13,107. But it was your own fault, was it not that you had to pay it
twice?-I don't know about that.
13,108. Could you not have got the money from Mouat?-No. I
would have had to apply to the civil law to get it.
13,109. You could have got the value of it in goods from him?-
Yes. I could have got it in goods; but they were of an inferior
quality, and I did not want to take them. [The witness produced a
receipt for the rent of 1871 from Mr. William Irvine, and also
receipt from Mouat in the following terms:
'£5 MOUL, 13<th Jn>. 1871.
' This is to certify that I have from Thomas Halcrow the rent of
1871 in my hands. ROBT. MO.']
13,110. Is that Mouat's signature?-Yes; it is what I got from him.
13,111. Did you see him write it?-I did.
13,112. Do you know any other men who paid rent to Mouat in the
same way?-I don't know of any others who paid him in that
particular way, but I know some men who had money in his hands.
13,113. Was John Mouat one of them?-Yes. He had money in
Robert Mouat's hands by the fishing.
13,114. Was he not able to get his money at the settlement of
1870?-No. I know that he could not get it.
13,115. Do you know anything about that except that he could not
get it?-No.
13,116. You have another document in your hands: what is it?-It
is a copy of our account from Mr. Smith for the fishing.
13,117. Do you get a copy of your accounts from Mr. Smith at
every settlement?-Yes. I have only settled with him one year.
13,118. This is an account for two men; and it shows the prices
you got in 1871,-ling 8s. 9d., cod 7s., tusk 7s., and saith 4s.
3d.?-Yes.
13,119. Did you get all that in cash?-Yes, except what I had
received in cash before. I had received a little cash in the course
of
the summer. I had got no advances from him in goods, because his
shop was so far from where I lived.
13,120. Why are the two men's accounts in the same slip of
paper?-Because there are five of us who go in one boat; and three
men agreed to fish for Mr. John Robertson, jun. and two for Mr.
James Smith.
13,121. Whose boat was it?-James Gilbertson was the skipper;
and the boat belonged to the men.
13,122. Is it a usual arrangement, that part of the crew fish to one
merchant and part to another?-No.
13,123. How did it happen in this case?-Because we wanted our
liberty. We did not want to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson.
13,124. Would you not have been at liberty if you had fished for
Mr. Robertson?-Our reason for not fishing for him was because
Robert Mouat called all his tenants to the Moul, and ordered them
to agree to fish for Mr. John Robertson for him two rising years.
13,125. Was Mr. John Robertson Mouat's trustee in his
sequestration?-Yes.
13,126. Some of you declined to fish for him, and others engaged
to fish?-Yes.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GILBERT IRVINE,
examined.
13,127. Are you shopkeeper at Grutness to Mr. John Bruce,
jun.?-I am.
13,128. Do you also act as factor on the estate?-I don't know that
I could be called a factor exactly. I just do things about the estate
as Mr. Bruce wishes me.
13,129. But you are sometimes employed as, a factor or overseer
going about the estate?-Yes, at times.
13,130. Are you aware that the tenants on the Sumburgh estate in
Dunrossness parish are under tack to Mr. John Bruce, jun., and are
bound to deliver their fish to him?-It is understood that they are
to do so, but some of them don't do it. There are some of them
who have not fished for Mr. Bruce, and are not are very doing so
at the present time; but these are very few. The general
understanding is, that they are to deliver their fish to him.
13,131. How long have you been at Grutness?-About
twenty-three or twenty-four years.
13,132. I believe it was about 1860 that Mr Bruce took the tack?-
Yes.
13,133. How were you employed at Grutness before [Page 325]
then?-I was there for Messrs. Hay & Co. They had the shop
there formerly, and some of the men belonging to that estate were
employed by them as fishermen.
13,134. Do you remember intimation being made to the tenants
about 1860 that they were expected to fish for Mr. Bruce?-Yes. I
think there was some person sent round with a letter to that effect,
but I did not see the letter.
13,135. However, you know that such an intimation was made?-I
understood so.
13,136 Do you remember, a good many years ago, of one James
Brown at Toab selling some fish to Robert Leslie?-I don't
remember about that at present.
13,137. Do you remember of James Brown's farm being
advertised to be let at the shop, a ticket being put up there?-I
don't remember about that.
13,138. May it have happened, although you do not remember?-
It is possible it may have happened; but I don't remember anything
about it at the present moment.
13,139. Can you say that such a thing did not happen twelve years
ago?-I think James Brown had not got a farm twelve years ago.
13,140. Perhaps it was his father?-I never knew his father. I
think his father was dead before James Brown came to the parish.
13,141. Do you remember any case of a farm being advertised
because the tenant had sold his fish, or attempted to sell them, to
another merchant?-I do not remember any case of a farm being
advertised for man selling fish. The tenants have been reproved
for doing so; but I cannot remember of any farm being advertised
for that.
13,142. Have you spoken to them about doing such things?-Very
likely I have.
13,143. Do you know one Thomas Aitken?-Yes.
13,144 Do you know whether he had to sign a paper agreeing to
fish for Mr. Bruce so long as he lived on the ground?-I did not
see the paper.
13,145. It was not through you that that was done?-No.
13,146. Was there any special arrangement with him about
fishing?-I don't remember anything about it. If there was such
an arrangement, it would be with Mr. Bruce.
13,147. You say you have sometimes reproved the tenants for
selling their fish to others?-Yes. There have been some seasons
when, from the end of October until May, they delivered none at
all, or not more than perhaps one cwt. or so. I believe most of
them have not delivered more than that during the whole time.
13,148. But that was their winter fishing?-Yes.
13,149. Have you said to them that they ought to deliver some of
their winter fish to you?-I told them, even last year, that if the
proprietor was aware that they were selling all their fish to other
merchants, he would be offended at them, or something to that
effect.
13,150. Had that any effect?-Not much.
13,151. They did not bring their winter fish to you?-No.
13,152. Would it be as convenient for them to bring their winter
fish to you as to another?-Mr. Bruce had a station at the beach
head, and a factor, who was paid all the season round, for taking
fish, and salt and everything ready for them, but they would not
bring them to him.
13,153. Where did they go with them?-I don't know, I suppose to
the merchants round about.
13,154. Did they go to Messrs. Hay & Co., or to Quendale?-I
could not say where they went.
13,155. Why did they not choose to come to you?-I don't know.
It is a general practice in Shetland, that tenants fishing for
landlords try to do as much trade with other merchants as they can.
13,156. What has been their reason for that practice?-I think the
fact that they fish for their landlords has created a kind of feeling
that they are rather in bondage.
13,157. And they like to have their liberty in winter?-I think
their feeling is, that they don't like the proprietor to know all their
transactions. That has been a practice in Shetland for a long time,
both in the north and the south.
13,158. Have you had occasion to reprove the tenants for carrying
off their fish or smuggling them to other merchants in summer?-I
think I have done so once or twice. I remember on one occasion
seeing a boat coming from the sea to land their fish. I counted the
fish they had in the boat; I don't recollect the number, but they
were not all brought to the store. I made inquiry about that, and
found that some of the fish had been taken to other merchants; but
I never told Mr. Bruce about it.
13,159. Your settlements at Grutness are made every year?-Yes,
once a year.
13,160. What is the usual period at which the settlements are
completed?-In some years Mr. Bruce has begun towards the end
of January; but last year, on account of him being out of the way,
and me not having the accounts ready, the settlement went on as
late as April.
13,161. Are the balances of these settlements always paid in
cash?-Yes; they are readily paid. Mr. Bruce always did that.
13,162. Do you sometimes make advances in money to the men in
the course of the summer?-I do not make these advances. Mr.
Bruce sometimes does so and when at settlement some of them are
in debt, he gives them money in advance. It very seldom happens
that a man, even when he is in debt at settlement, will not ask him
for some shillings, or for £2 or £3, and he always gives it to them,
although they have no money to get, but have been in his debt for
some time.
13,163. Do the men run accounts at your shop at Grutness as they
do with other merchants, for the purpose of supplying their
families and of getting supplies for the fishing?-Yes; what they
get is chiefly meal and hooks, and things of that kind. We do not
do much in dry goods.
13,164. Except outfits for the fishermen?-Yes, except what we
cannot avoid giving them.
13,165. At what time of the year are your transactions with the
fishermen largest?-In summer. While the fishing is going on,
our place is very busy.
13,166. Is that the season when the meal of the fishermen
themselves is exhausted?-Yes. I have seen in bad years, when
there was a poor crop in Shetland, that they had to get meal
supplied to them so early as February; but for 2 or 3 years back the
crops have been better, and most of the men have carried on till
April or May without requiring any advances of that kind.
13,167. Then your principal sales of meal are in the summer
time?-Yes. We seldom do anything in it after the crop has been
got in, except perhaps in the case of a person who has had a very
poor crop, or no crop at all, and then we may give him some.
13,168. The quantity of meal which each man gets is entered in the
ledger account in your book at the time that he gets it?-Yes; we
just keep one ledger account. Sometimes the meal is marked on
slips of paper or in a little book when I am out of the way, but I try
to enter all these things in the ledger daily.
13,169. But they are all entered in the ledger account, although
there may be some little delay in entering them?-Yes; every
person has all his dealings entered in one account.
13,170. I understand, from what I saw in the books last night, and
from what you mentioned to me, that you don't fix the price of the
meal when it is given out?-No. I don't know yet the current
price of bear meal for this year.
13,171. At first you only enter the quantity that is given out?-
Yes.
13,172. And the price of the meal is fixed at settlement?-Yes, or
some time before it, in order that I may get the account extended
and added up.
13,173. In what way is the price of the meal fixed for the year?-It
is generally taken on an average. In 1870, for instance, which is
the last year for which there has been a settlement, meal was pretty
low in [Page 326] the spring, varying from 18s. to 19s. per boll,
and it rose during the season until it was somewhere about £1, if
not above it. These changes frequently take place in the markets;
and in fixing the price for a particular year, we generally make an
average of the prices from first to last. If we were not to do that,
then it might chance that the poorest people might get the whole of
their meal at the dearest price, or when the price of meal was
highest; but the way in which we take it makes it more equal over
all.
13,174. Do you take the average according to the whole quantity
of meal which you have sold?-Yes. We add up the total amount
of meal sold, and the prices per boll which the meal has cost. I
don't do that, but I believe that is the way in which it is done. It
is generally done by Mr. Bruce himself, but I have a general
understanding about it. For instance, if 20 bolls cost a certain
figure, and 30 bolls cost another figure, if we add the amounts
together, and take the average of the whole, we know what to sell
it for. That is the way in which I would do it, and I believe it is
the way in which it is done.
13,175. You first strike the average of the wholesale price, and
then you allow a certain amount of profit upon that?-Yes. We
include the expense of bringing it here, and then we make an
average price accordingly.
13,176. Do some of the fishermen who deal at your shop have
pass-books?-Very few; but I think a great many of them keep
accounts themselves. I never saw many men settling who did not
know what quantity of meal they had had.
13,177. Have you sometimes objected to the trouble of keeping
pass-books for the men?-I don't recollect doing that, but I
might have said that it was vexatious. I think there were two or
three cases in which I was anxious that the people should have
pass-books, and I began them with them. They came with them
for a certain time, but then they would come without the book, and
that confused me altogether. However, I never was very much
asked to keep pass-books for them, and the fact is that it would
have been almost out of my power to have attended to them. I am
frequently out of the shop, and there are days when the men are
coming ashore in large numbers, on which we could scarcely have
time to mark down the meal.
13,178. Have you a fixed day in the week for giving out meal?-
We have had a fixed day for some years back. Formerly we had
no particular day, but we could not get them to understand the
quantity of meal that was to be disposed of; and as there are some
people to whom we only allow a certain quantity of meal per
week, we have found it better to fix a particular day on which they
are to come for it. People who have credit, or who have money in
Mr. Bruce's hands, can come any day and get what they please, so
that there are scarcely any days in the week when some is not
given out; but the bulk is given out on a particular day, generally
on a Friday.
13,179. You said just now that certain people had to be restricted
to a given quantity of meal: are these people who are in debt?-
Yes, and people who have been in debt. If it had not been for that
restriction, there are some people on the estate who were in debt
not long ago, and who would still have been in debt.
13,180. I thought it was because they were in debt that you
restricted them?-No; we restricted some because they might
have got into debt. We just gave them an allowance sufficient to
support them through the week; but if we had given them more, or
given them what they wanted, they would have taken double the
quantity. These, however, are only a few individuals; in general
the people are much more careful.
13,181. When you put parties on an allowance in that way, are
they generally people who have had a balance against them at
settlement the year before?-Generally they are. Some of them
may have been in debt £8 or £10, and some as high as £20, and it
is these people we put on an allowance in order to try to keep
them going.
13,182. Do people who have no balance against them, and who
can get an unlimited supply of meal, come to you on Fridays along
with the rest?-Sometimes, and sometimes not; they just come as
they choose.
13,183. Do they frequently not come to you at all for meal?-
There are few of them who don't come for meal; but the
greater part of the men at Dunrossness are generally in good
circumstances, and have the command of money, and they
generally buy their meal in Lerwick, or where they can get it
cheapest.
13,184. In looking at your books last night, of course I did not find
the prices for meal entered for the year 1871?-No.
13,185. But I saw that a lispund of bear meal in 1870 was charged
at 4s. 6d.?-I think the lispunds were 4s. 4d., and the quarter bolls
4s. 6d.
13,186. I noticed also that you sometimes charged what you call a
lispund at a different price?-Yes; when we break a boll and sell it
in quarters, we generally call it a lispund. Sometimes two or three
men may get a boll and divide it among themselves, and it is
generally charged to them as lispunds. That accounts for the
lispund sometimes being charged at one price and sometimes at
another.
13,187. When you do actually weigh out a quarter boll, you charge
it at 4s. 6d.?-We seldom weigh that out. They take the boll and
divide it among themselves; we seldom weigh it.
13,188. When the prices are not entered until the end of the
season, how do you know whether to charge for a quarter boll
or for a lispund, when you have put it in your book in the first
instance as a lispund in both cases?-I had slips of paper or a little
pass-book, and when we gave the meal out we had a line for the
boll weight and a line for the lispund.
13,189. What is done with the lines?-We have some of them yet.
13,190. Do you file them?-No. We rule the small pass-book, and
have a place in which we enter the lines, so many for lispunds, so
many for bolls, and so many for quarter bolls, or whatever it may
be.
13,191. Do you call that book the weighing-book?-Yes. It is
generally only part of the meal that is entered there.
13,192. When you are putting in the prices at the end of the season
do you go over all the entries in that book, and all the entries in the
ledger account as well?-There is a great deal of the meal that we
never keep any slips for, but just enter it direct into the ledger and
we know which of these people are getting lispunds, and which are
getting quarter bolls.
13,193. How do you know that?-At the beginning of the season
we know quite well the people we are giving the meal to regularly,
and those who just get it as they come.
13,194. Are there certain people who always get it in lispunds, and
others who always get it in quarter bolls?-Yes.
13,195. And you know which is which?-Yes, because the people
who get it regularly generally get it in lispunds; and sometimes if
we give them a boll or half a boll, we mark it in the ledger at once.
13,196. Then you say that bear meal in 1870 was charged at 4s. 4d.
per lispund, and 4s. 6d. per quarter boll?-I think so.
13,197. And a lispund of oatmeal in 1870 was 5s. 6d.?-I think it
was 22s. per boll, or 11s. 6d. per half boll, but I cannot say exactly.
I think the price per lispund was 5s. 4d.
13,198. Then the entry which I noted of half a lispund of oatmeal
in 1870-2s. 9d., would be for one half of a quarter boll?-I
would suppose so; but I could not be sure about that unless I saw
the entry.
13,199. But although you saw the entry, that would not help
you?-It would not, but I could not say anything positive about
that.
13,200. I received this piece of half-bleached cotton from you
[showing], which you sell at 41/2d. a yard?-Yes.
13,201. Also this piece [showing], which you sell at 8d.?-Yes.
[Page 327]
13,202. And this piece of shirting [showing], which you sell at
1s.?-Yes.
13,203. These were all got from J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow?-
Yes.
13,204. You sell your tobacco at 4d. per oz.?-Yes. We have two
kinds, both sold at 4d. or 15d. per quarter lb.
13,205. Is that the price, whether it is entered in the account or
sold for cash?-We very seldom sell for cash, but the price is the
same in both cases.
13,206. Do you not take cash in the shop at all?-Yes, we take it if
we get it; but we never have the chance of getting much of it. We
get a few shillings occasionally. I don't think we get so much cash
in the course of the year as will pay for postages.
13,207. That shows that your business is entirely for the supply of
your own fishermen?-Entirely; and Mr. Bruce was never inclined
to increase the trade as a shop trade. It is only to accommodate the
fishermen that the things are kept.
13,208. That is to say, it is to accommodate those who do not have
money with which to go elsewhere?-Yes. The men, on coming
ashore, do not have time to go for lines and supplies to some other
place; but it would be better for Mr. Bruce and the whole concern
if there was no store there at all.
13,209. Do you mean to say that there is no profit on goods?-
There is a profit on the goods, but the shop cannot pay the people
that have to attend to it.
13,210. Are you paid by salary for your attention to the shop, or
have you an interest in the sale of the goods?-I have no interest
in the sale of the goods at all.
13,211. You sell your 2-lb. lines for 2s. 2d.?-Yes.
13,212. You sell your best sugar for 6d.?-Yes. During the
summer, until the end of the season, it was 61/2d.: but now they
get sugar of the same kind for 6d.
13,213. You purchase it from Greenock-two cwt. at a time?-I
cannot exactly say where the last sugar came from. We had an
agent in Glasgow to buy it from Greenock, and I understand he did
so.
13,214. I observed an entry in December 1871-1 lb. sugar, 6d.:
was that the best?-Yes. That was part of the last sugar we broke
up.
13,215. That sugar was invoiced to you on 14th September
1871?-I think so; but the sugar had been higher in the course
of the year.
13,216. What was the price at which sugar sold in your shop in
1870?-I think it was 61/2d., because the price of sugar was higher
then. We had the finest sugar in 1870 as high as 7d., but never
above that.
13,217. Do you keep only one kind of sugar?-No, we have more
than one kind. It is not always alike. We have two different kinds
of sugar.
13,218. I show you an invoice dated 12th May 1870,
1 cask sugar
2 1 25
18
2 1 7
at 42s. 6d.
£4, 18s. 4d.
Grutness shop debtor, £6, 1s. 41/4d.
At what price did you sell that sugar per lb.?-I think it was 61/2d.
13,219. What would be the freight of it from Greenock to here?-I
could not say. I think Mr. Bruce keeps the freight accounts.
13,220. The sum of £6, 1s. 41/4d. is entered against the shop: is that
the sum you were to realize by the sale of that sugar?-Yes.
13,221. Or does it merely indicate the price and the expenses,
leaving you to fix the selling price yourself?-No; I think that is
what was expected to be realized, and all expenses and inlake have
to come off that. I think that is the net sum that must be realized
after expenses and inlake.
13,222. Was there no more than that realized from the sugar
contained in that invoice?-I could not say. I have not tried that
particularly.
13,223. You have shown me two invoices of meal, one August
12th, and the other August 23d, 1870, from Jonathan Mess; one for
10 bolls oatmeal at 19s., and the other for 15 bolls at 17s. 9d.: I
suppose the difference in price between these two is to be
accounted for by the variation in the market price at that time?-
Yes.
13,224. Was that meal which you got in August the dearest
purchase of the year?-I don't remember.
[Produces invoices, showing the following purchases in
1870:-
April 1, 25 bolls of oatmeal at 15s.
" 1, 1 " " " 15s.
" 22, 20 " " " 15s. 6d.
June 3, 40 " " " 16s. 3d.
" 14, 60 " " " 16s. 3d.
Aug. 12, 10 " " " 19s.
" 23, 15 " " " 17s. 9d.
Those are the prices at Aberdeen, exclusive of the cost for bags,
which were charged separately.]
13,225. Was that the whole supply of meal for 1870?-Yes.
13,226. Had you a stock in hand at the beginning of the year?-
None.
13,227. I think you said before that you had very few sales before
April?-Yes; we do very little in meal before the fishing begins.
13,228. What quality of oatmeal is contained in these invoices?-
It is meal ground entirely from Scotch home-grown oats. A great
part of the meal that comes to this country is grown from foreign
oats, and is not nearly so good, and it can be bought far cheaper.
13,229. Was the oatmeal of the best quality which you sold for 5s.
4d. per lispund, or 5s. 6d. per quarter boll?-Yes.
13,230. Do you know anything about the freights from
Aberdeen?-I think Mr. Bruce will be better able to speak to
that than I can.
13,231. You get your tobacco from Mr. Henry Christie,
Edinburgh?-Yes.
13,232. Have you charge of the despatch of goods to Fair Isle
when
they are required?-Yes. When the vessel is going I supply the
man's orders if the things are in Mr. Bruce's shop. At times we
have to buy trifling things at other shops to supply the people with.
13,233. I noticed in your Fair Isle order-book an entry of 2 cwt.
soap ordered from Hedly & Co., Newcastle, on 30th August 1871:
at what price would that be retailed in Fair Isle?-At 6d. per lb.
13,234. Have you the invoice price of that?-No, not in 1871: but
it was very similar to the price in 1870. We generally got the finest
extra pale brown soap. [Produces invoice of 18th August 1870,
showing the price of soap at that time to be 28s. per cwt.]
13,235. In the same order-book there is an entry of 4 cwt. soft
sugar, ordered on 30th August 1871 for Fair Isle: at what rate
would that be sold there?-If it is the same quality as ours, it
would very likely be sold at 7d.; it would be at least a halfpenny
dearer in Fair Isle, to cover the expense of freight.
13,236. But you don't know what was the quality of sugar that you
sent to Fair Isle in August 1871?-No; we never break up the
casks, but the quality ordered would be the same as the common
brown which we order for ourselves.
13,237. Are the whole supplies to Fair Isle furnished by Mr.
Bruce?-He generally furnishes what is ordered by the factor.
13,238. Do you know whether the factor has instructions to
prevent any one else from trading with the inhabitants?-I don't
think he has very positive instructions on the subject, because he
could not prevent it. Mr. Bruce and I were there this year, and at
that time two vessels came to trade. We saw them there, but
could not prevent them. One pretty large sloop came down from
Westray, belonging to a man called Luggie; and Rendall came also
and traded during the whole night when I was asleep. We did not
know that he was doing anything until he was under weigh, and
when the vessel was off we saw that he had half-a-dozen cattle
on board. Rendall goes from house to house [Page 328] on the
island, and trades with the people just like a hawker.
13,239. Are the inhabitants prohibited from selling their cattle to
Rendall, or to any other outside trader?-I think they were made
aware that Mr. Bruce wanted the preference of the cattle from
people who were in debt; but it is generally those individuals who
are in debt who try to slip off their cattle in that way when they
have a beast to dispose of. The people who are well to do on the
island give Mr. Bruce the preference willingly.
13,240. Do you purchase cattle for Mr. Bruce?-Merely in the way
of business. He was in the south when the public sales took place
this year, and I and his grieve did purchase a few beasts for him.
Our only object in doing so was to keep up the sales, so that the
tenants might get a better price for their cattle.
13,241. Like other merchants in Shetland, does Mr. Bruce
purchase a number of cattle for re-sale?-No: he never drives
a trade of that kind. He has four cattle sales in the year, and he
buys his cattle generally at these sales: which have been the
means of keeping up the price of cattle in this end of the country
ever since he began them.
13,242. Are cattle frequently taken by Mr. Bruce in liquidation of
a debt due by a tenant?-Those tenants who are in debt, and who
have cattle, are generally requested to bring them to a public sale.
13,243. When a man is in arrear, is he asked to do that?-Yes,
when he has a beast to dispose of. These are Mr. Bruce's
instructions.
13,244. Do you recollect one Thomas Wilson in Fair Isle being
forbidden to sell a cow to Rendall?-The factor may have
forbidden him, but, so far as I know, neither Mr. Bruce nor I did
so.
13,245. Did you know of a cow of Thomas Wilson's being brought
over and sold here for £4, 1s.?-Yes. I remember that transaction
quite well, for he wanted me to buy the cow for Mr. Bruce; but I
thought as he had come out of the island with her himself, the best
way to give him a fair chance of selling his cow was to allow him
to take her to the public sale and put her up to auction. He said he
had had an offer of £5, 10s. from Rendall, but I said I did not think
the animal was worth it.
13,246. Do you think he was really offered £5, 10s.?-It was £4,
10s. he said he was offered, and Mr. Bruce of Vinsgarth bought the
cow for £4, 1s. at the sale.
13,247. Then he only lost 9s. by not taking Rendall's offer?-Yes;
and I only had his own word for it, that he had been offered that.
13,248. Are you quite sure it was not £5, 10s. that Wilson said he
had been offered?-Yes, I am sure it was £4, 10s.
13,249. Did she not look like a cow that anybody would offer £5,
10s. for?-No: she was sold too high as it was. I bought far
cheaper cattle than that for Mr. Bruce. When the cow was sold
Wilson was quite satisfied with the price
13,250. Would you be surprised to hear that the meal at Grutness
is very often sold at 4s. a boll dearer than the same meal had been
got for in Lerwick?-I would be rather surprised at that. It cannot
be the same quality of meal if that is the case.
13,251. Do you say that it is not the case?-I cannot say what they
may sell their meal for at Lerwick. The men sometimes go to
Lerwick with money, and bargain to get goods under the market
price. I have seen that done, and a handle of that may be made in
Lerwick.
13,252. Are you aware whether the tenants on the Sumburgh estate
have been offered leases and refused them?-Yes.
13,253. If they had got leases, would they have released them from
the obligation to fish for their landlord?-I don't think Mr. Bruce
would have given lease of that kind unless he had raised the rents
on his property, because it is on account of the fishing that he does
not raise them as it is.
13,254. Do you understand that the farms are let at a lower rent in
consequence of the men being obliged to fish?-Yes. I think Mr.
Bruce would get higher rents if that was not the case.
13,255. Do you know whether these [showing paper headed,
'Rules for the better management of the Sumburgh estate'] are
the rules that were laid down for the management of the
property?-Yes.
13,256. I believe very few of the men have accepted them?-None
at all, to my knowledge.
13,257. But that contains no obligation about fishing?-No; but
the thing in it which the men object to is the last paragraph:
'Subject to the above rules, the landlord reserves right to take into
his own hands any part of his estate at any time on giving the
tenant legal notice.' The men object to that, and I think I would
do the same if I was taking a lease.
13,258. Do you understand that if the men agree to these
regulations they would be free from the obligation to fish, or is
that obligation referred to in the clause, 'The tenant shall be
bound to observe the rules generally in force on the property for
the time being?'-Of course it would be considered that they
would still have to deliver their fish to Mr. Bruce at the current
rate of the country; but although they have no leases, there is no
man who has been annoyed on the property since the young laird
had the management of it.
13,259. Have you sometimes heard the men complaining that they
only got lispund weight?-Sometimes they did, but sometimes
when we had to give them pecks we could not afford to give more.
13,260. When you sell pecks do you charge boll price?-No, we
charge it little beyond that; but if we retail meal out in peck weight
we lose a great deal.
13,261. Supposing 5s. 6d. was the quarter boll price in 1870, what
would be the price of a peck?-We would not weigh it out in that
way.
13,262. What would be the price of a peck if it was weighed out?
Would it be 1s. 41/2d.?-It would be somewhere thereabout; but
there is not so much inlake [sic] in weighing out small quantities
of meal as there is in other things.
13,263. But if you were selling a peck of meal when the price was
5s. 6d. per quarter boll, what would you charge for the peck?-I
suppose it would be 1s. 4d.
13,264. That would be a 1/2d. less than the quarter of quarter
boll?-Yes, I think I would charge about that.
13,265. Then is there any foundation for the statement of the
men, that they only got lispund weight at the boll price when they
bought it in pecks?-There might be but I could not say as to that.
It might have happened in some cases.
13,266. But that would be intended to cover the loss in weighing
out?-If we take a sack of meal and weigh it out in lispunds and
pecks, there is a great inlake [sic] and often when the meal comes
wet there is some of it lost in transport, and when it lies long there
is a great deal lost in the stores by vermin and in other ways, and
the inlake [sic] must be met in some way.
13,267. Do you always read over the accounts of the men to them
before settlement?-Generally.
13,268. Do you check them along with the men?-Yes; and Mr.
Bruce never enters the amount of their accounts until the men are
satisfied with them.
13,269. You hand in the total amount of a man's account at the
shop to Mr. Bruce in order that it may be entered in Mr. Bruce's
own ledger for settlement with the man?-Yes. When Mr. Bruce
begins to settle, the Grutness ledger is brought up to the office, and
the accounts are added up and squared off. Mr. Bruce never enters
a shop account in his ledger until he and the men agree that it is
correct. Some of the men also have accounts of their own, and can
compare every article as it is entered in the shop ledger.
13,270. Do you know what arrangements are made with the men
about boats and lines?-There is no arrangement. They furnish
their boats and lines for themselves.
13,271. Is that so in all cases?-Yes. If a man is not able to buy
his boat, or when he is shifting, he [Page 329] goes to Mr. Bruce
before the fishing season begins and gets an order for a new boat.
13,272. Is he expected to pay that up by instalments?-He is not
asked for it until he settles matters at the twelvemonth's end.
13,273. But is there a fixed instalment payable each year by a term
of years, or is it paid just as the man finds himself able to do so?-
There are some men with money to get who would be able to pay
up the whole price of their boat at the first settlement, or the
greater part of the price. That is seldom the case, but I have
known it to happen. Generally they get twelve months' credit,
and at the end of the twelve months any money that is due to them
is entered the same as cash to account in Mr. Bruce's books. Then
if a man cannot pay his way altogether, the balance is carried on
perhaps for several years.
13,274. How long is it before a boat that is purchased in that way
is usually paid for? would it be three or four years, or more or
less?-Of course it depends very much on the circumstances of the
men. If it is a poor man who has generally been behind, he may
have a balance this year against him, which may run on for half a
dozen years always increasing, and his share of the boat may be in
that balance.
13,275. You mean that his share of the boat may be very long in
being paid, while the other shares may be paid up sooner?-Yes;
but the expense of a boat is not very great. I don't think one of the
boats we have would cost more than £3 for the whole affair-that
is, the material we give the order for.
13,276. Do you mean to say that a boat for the longline fishing
costs only £3?-The material of it does.
13,277. Do you not use the six-oared boats here?-They are
beginning to use the six-oared boats now, but they are very
expensive. There are two or three now. I think there were
some before Mr. Bruce came to the place, and now for the last
two years their use is becoming general.
13,278. Has the fishing been carried on entirely with the small
boats hitherto?-Yes; and I believe the small boats in general
make most money.
13,279. How many men are in each of those small boats?-
Generally three men, or two men and two boys.
13,280. That is a different system from what prevails in other parts
of Shetland?-There is no difference, except that our men make
more money than they generally do in the north fishing, and there
are no men in Shetland who have to incur less expense for sea
material.
13,281. Do you engage any fish-curers?-Yes, for Mr. Bruce.
13,282. Is the fee fixed at the end of the year according to the
result of the fishing?-No; it is generally fixed at the beginning;
but when a heavy fishing occurs, we generally advance their wages
a little.
13,283. Do these men and boys generally run an account at the
store?-Very little. I was observing from the books, that one man
had as high a fee as £10 last year, and £12 the year before, and this
year I think he is to have £10 again; and I don't think he has an
account of £1 in the book, or anything near it. All that he gets is a
mere trifle; a few shillings up or down.
13,284. Do most of the people engaged in the curing get a large
part of their earnings in money?-Most of them do. There is
seldom a year when we do not have people from other estates
curing for us. We get them wherever we can; of course at as low a
rate as possible. They sign an agreement for the season, and then
they are paid according to that agreement generally at Martinmas.
13,285. Are the tenants upon the estate bound to send their sons to
the curing?-They are not regularly bound, so far as I know; but it
is understood in the same way as with the fishing, that if a man has
a son, and we can afford to give him as much wages as another, we
are to get the preference.
13,286. Have you interfered with any boys going to other
engagements, in order that you might have them for the curing?-
There was one case of that kind last year, with the son of William
Goudie.
13,287. Had he got another engagement?-He was not engaged.
His uncle is manager at the station, and he wrote me saying that he
boy could get £3, 10s. of wages from another party, and that we
would not get him again unless we gave him that wage. That was
far higher for a boy's wage than we were in use to give, and I told
the boy to tell his father to come over and speak to Mr. Bruce or
me about it. The father came over and told Mr. Bruce and me that
the boy had been offered £3, 10s. and we distinctly told him that if
we could not afford to give him the same wages, he was at liberty
to go to any one he chose. I also said we could hardly believe that
he had got such a rise, but I told him, and Mr. Bruce also said, that
if he could get 1s. more we did not want the boy, and he could
engage him to any one he chose. The father went home, but he
thought that perhaps we would be displeased if he gave the boy to
another, and the boy went to the store. He went with his own
accord, and by his father's instructions, and remained the whole
season. He was a very good boy, and when he settled with Mr.
Bruce he gave him the same wages that he had stated, £3, 10s.
The father was a tenant of Mr. Bruce's, but at first we could
scarcely believe that the boy had got the offer of such a rise.
13,288. Do you believe now that he got the offer of such a rise?-
Yes. The man was one of those who were examined in Lerwick,
and that was his declaration, and I believe it to be true. There have
been other cases where boys have not been interfered with when
they had engaged with another party. Last year one of Mr. Bruce's
tenants had a boy who was engaged with another party to cure fish,
and he would not come to us at all, and there was nothing said
about it.
13,289. Is there any expectation on your part that the men whom
you employ in the fishing shall come for goods to your shop?-
No. We would rather be clear of it. The only trouble we have in
the matter is to keep some of them from coming too much to us.
They want more goods than we are inclined to give them. We
never lay in goods to induce them to come, while those who have
plenty of money go to other shops, and perhaps never come to us
at all. We never ask them to do so.
13,290. Do you think you would get as many and as good men to
fish for you if you did not have the shop at all?-I think so. The
principal advantage which the shop is to them is that when they
are coming ashore they require fishing material, such as hooks,
twine, lines, and other things, at the place where they land, and
before they go to sea again. We endeavour to get the best of that
material for them, because there are always a great many
complaints made in Shetland about the quality of that material.
Two or three years ago, when I was south, I went to two or three of
the principal makers, and got hooks made on purpose for our trade.
We pay 41/2d. per 100 for them to the manufacturer above what
other merchants pay; and the other merchants sell their hooks at
2s. 4d. per lb, while we sell them at 2s. 6d., being a loss to us of
21/2d. upon every 100 hooks that we sell, over what is charged by
our neighbours.
13,291. That is to say, you get 21/2d. less profit than other
merchants do?-Yes. I also made arrangements for lines and
twine being made specially for us in the same way. For 2-lb.
lines, although we try to keep a better article, we charge only 2s.
2d., while I find that other parties charge 2s. 3d. for the same
thing; and our articles are better, because they are made specially
for us.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, JOHN BRUCE, jun.,
examined.
13,292. You are a son of Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and you hold a
tack from him of his property in Dunrossness?-Yes.
13,293. You have prepared a statement on the subject [Page
330] of this inquiry which you wish to appear as part of your
evidence?-Yes.
[The witness put in the following statement.]
'The tenants on the property in this parish managed by me are
at liberty to go to sea or to the Greenland or Faroe fishing, or to
pursue any land occupation as they please; but if they remain at
home and go to the home fishing, they are expected to deliver their
fish to me and receive for it the full market value. This is one of
the conditions on which they hold their farms and is, I consider,
a beneficial rule for the fishermen. They must fish to some
merchant, and as I give them as high a price as they could get from
another, they are no losers, while I provide suitable curing and
fishing stations, and these stations of mine are the most convenient
places for them to deliver their fish.
'I am obliged to keep stores at some of the fishing stations for
the convenience of the fishermen, to supply them with fishing
gear, groceries, and other things which they may require. But no
fisherman is expected or wished to take anything from these stores
unless it is his wish to do so.
'Any fisherman can get the full value of his fishing in money
from me at any time if he wishes it. I have never once refused to
pay a fisherman the full sum due to him in money. And, in fact,
there are many cases in which fishermen take nothing whatever
out of my stores, but receive the full value of their fishing in cash.
'I have also fishing for me fishermen who are not my tenants,
and over whom I have no control; and these are treated in every
respect the same as my own tenants.
'Prior to 1860 the tenants on the property managed by me were
permitted to fish to any one they liked, and the people were very
much in debt, both to the landlord and to the various merchants to
whom they fished-and, for the most part, could not pay their
rents.
'The debts to the landlord averaged two years' rents over the
whole property.
'On account of the general state of bankruptcy, I was obliged
to take the fishing into my own hands, and I consider the people
now to be in a much more flourishing state.
'For the most part, fishermen are quite satisfied with having their
accounts read over to them. But those fishermen who ask for
copies of their accounts at settlement always get them, and the
books are always open for them to refer to at any after-time.
'With regard to the prices charged at the stores, the goods I keep
are in all cases of the best quality, and may be a little higher-priced
than goods of the same description but of inferior quality, but I am
not aware that anything is charged unreasonably
high.
'NOTE.-The only grievance of which my tenants can complain is,
that they are obliged to fish to me. This, I will endeavour to show,
is no grievance at all, but an advantage to the fishermen.
'In looking over the whole of Shetland, it will be found that the
most prosperous districts are those under the direct management
of the landlords.
'Many of the fishermen in this country (as indeed many of the
poorer classes everywhere) are unable, from want of thrift and care
to manage their own matters in a satisfactory manner, and require
to be thought for and acted for, and generally treated like children,
and are much better off under the management of a landlord who
has an interest in their welfare, than they would be if in the hands
of a merchant whose only object was to make a profit out of them.
'A merchant who has no control over the fishermen, may, in some
cases wish to get them and keep them in his debt, in order to
secure their custom; but the case of a landlord also a merchant is
quite different. It is his interest to have a prosperous, thrifty, and
independent tenantry; and he will use his utmost endeavour to
keep them out of debt, and to encourage saving habits.
'I can see no reason why the fact of a man being a landlord should
prevent him from being also a merchant and fish-curer; and if so,
why he should not secure a lot of good fishermen by making it one
of the conditions of occupancy by his tenants, that if fishermen
they shall fish to him.
'The very fact of a landlord being a fish-curer would lead up to
this, for tenants would naturally wish to stand well with their
landlord, and other conditions being equal, would prefer to give
him their fish.
'The same thing is done everywhere else. In Orkney, in many
estates, the tenants are obliged to manufacture a certain quantity of
kelp, and to deliver it to the landlord at a certain fixed price, which
leaves the landlord a large profit.
'In many counties in England and Scotland, farmers are required
to send their grain to mills belonging to landlords, and to perform
certain services, such as cartage for the landlord, either free or at
a low fixed rate. I can see no greater hardship in a Shetland
landlord letting his farms to tenants who will fish to him, than in
a south-country manufacturer letting his cottages to tenants who
will work to him.
'There are, no doubt, many things in the Shetland system of trade
which might be improved; but the system has been of long growth,
and is so engrained in the minds of the people, that any change
must be very gradual; a sudden and sweeping change to complete
free-trade principles and ready-money payments would not suit the
people, but would produce endless confusion, hardship, and
increased pauperism.
'Under the present system, our small rentals and large
population, our poor-rates are very high. But the landlords
support a great many families which would otherwise be
thrown on the rates.
'It is no uncommon thing, where a family is deprived of its
breadwinner, for the landlord to support the family till the younger
members grow up, and are abler to provide for themselves, and
repay the landlord's advances.
'Abolish the present system suddenly, and I am afraid our
poor-rates would become unbearable, and nothing would save the
country but depopulation.
'It has never been the habit in Shetland to fix the price to be paid
for the fish till after the fishing is over. Complaints have been
made against this, and I do not defend the practice, but I believe it
to be popular with fishermen; and I believe, on the whole, they
receive more money for their fish under the present practice they
would if an engagement at a fixed price was always entered into at
the commencement of the season.
'If you ask a fisherman if he has a grievance, he will be sure to
try and find one for you; but I do not believe that the respectable
part of my tenants find it to be any grievance their being obliged to
fish to me.*
[Page 331]
13,294. You have heard the evidence which has been given by Mr.
Irvine?-Yes.
13,295. Has he explained correctly, so far as you have heard, the
manner in which the business is carried on at Grutness?-His
statement was substantially correct; but I could satisfy you on
some of the points that he did not know about.
13,296. There was a question asked about a Thomas Aitken,
whether he had signed any special obligation with regard to
fishing?-I am not aware that he ever did. It would not be
usual to make him sign any agreement with regard to that.
13,297. Was there any agreement signed with regard to the fishing
when you were in partnership with Mr. Grierson?-None that I am
aware of with regard to the men, and I know of no special
agreement with Thomas Aitken.
13,298. Was there any agreement with any of the men?-No. The
only persons who sign agreements are fishermen who do not
belong to the property I manage
13,299. Are agreements signed with them?-Yes. In the case of a
man coming to me for an advance of money, I occasionally make
him sign an agreement to fish for the rising year, in case he may
take the advance of money from me and then go somewhere else.
13,300. Do men from adjacent properties sometimes come to you
for an advance in that way?-Yes.
13,301. Do they get advances from you in money or in supplies?-
In money or in goods, but generally in money; and in these cases
agreements are sometimes written out.
13,302. Do you remember James Brown being told by you the
reason why his farm was advertised to be let?-Yes; but I am
not very clear about the time.
13,303. Was it about ten or twelve years ago?-I don't think it
was so long ago as that. There were two men, James Brown
and William Irvine, at Toab; I either advertised their farms, or
threatened to advertise them.
13,304. For what reason did you do that?-I am not very sure that I
can recollect. I don't think it was for selling fish. I think it was
for breaking some rule.
13,305. Was it not because he (Brown) had sold some fish to
Robert Leslie, Messrs. Hay's factor?-I think not. I think it was
for declining to assist to cure some fish in spring; but if James
Brown swears it was for selling fish, that may have been the case.
13,306. In what way do you fix the average price of meal for a
year?-We take what other people are charging in Lerwick and
elsewhere; and after considering the quality of the meal, and our
extra expense upon it, we charge what we think it can reasonably
bring, without any regard to the cost price of it.
13,307. Do you not take the cost price into consideration at all?-
Of course it is an element, but not the principal element, in fixing
the price.
13,308. You think you are entitled at Grutness to put an additional
charge on the meal above what it is in Lerwick, in respect of the
risk and expense of carriage?-Yes. Then the price at Lerwick, is
a cash price always, while at Grutness it is a credit price.
13,309. Do you mean that at Grutness the settlement for the meal
sold does not take place until the end of the year?-Yes; that is
one reason why the meal is a little dearer at Grutness than it is at
Lerwick, because when a man goes to Lerwick he goes with the
money in his hand, and pays for the meal at the time as a rule.
13,310. But at Grutness it is usually settled for as against fish?-
Yes; but very often it is supplied long before the fish are there to
meet it.
13,311. Mr. Irvine has said the supplies generally begin in
April, and the fish begin to be caught in April or May?-Yes;
the summer fishing begins about 15th May.
13,312. The fish are not paid for either until the following
spring?-No.
13,313. So that the fish are bought at a credit price, and the meal is
sold at a credit price?-Yes; when the accounts are balanced.
13,314. But the fish with which the meal is really paid for are in
your hands all the time?-They may or they may not be.
13,315. Are they not in your hands from the time they are
caught?-Yes; but a man may have money to his credit with
me, or he may be in debt when he gets the meal.
13,316. But the fish are not paid for to the fisherman at a credit
price?-No.
13,317. Then why should the meal be charged a credit price any
more than the fish?-Perhaps there is no good reason for it. The
reason would only hold good when the man is in debt.
13,318. Are the men as often in debt as not?-No. My people are
pretty free from debt. I should say that not over one in six or seven
is in debt.
13,319. What is the freight of meal from Lerwick?-I think it is
11d. per boll in the steamer from Aberdeen to Lerwick; 1d. for
landing at Lerwick; 4d. from Lerwick to Grutness by the packet;
and 1d. for landing at Grutness.
13,320. Do you sometimes bring your meal direct from Aberdeen
to Grutness by a packet?-I have once done so. I had a vessel
coming up at any rate, and she took load of meal on board.
13,321. You say in your statement that you have never refused to
pay a fisherman the full sum due to him in money: I presume that
means at settlement?-Yes, at settlement, or if wanted before.
13,322. If a man applies for money before settlement, do you
consider how much is reasonably due to him at that period of the
year?-If he is a good man, I would give him any sum he asked
for. If he was a man I was doubtful of, I would only give him the
amount he had at his credit, but he might get that full amount at
whatever time he asked for it.
13,323. In these circumstances, is there any reason for the
complaint of the men, that they cannot get their money until
settling time?-There is none.
13,324. The settlement last year was protracted as late as April: is
that usual?-It is not usually so late as April. The settlements are
generally finished by March.
13,325. Can you suggest any reason why the settlements with the
men in Shetland should not generally be at an earlier period than
that?-It is merely a matter of convenience. The settlements
could be earlier if the men so wished it; but I don't know that it
would do any good although they were earlier.
13,326. With regard to Fair Isle, is there a standing prohibition
against other traders dealing with the inhabitants [Page 332]
there?-To a certain extent there is. I don't object to people
trading there if they confine themselves to hosiery and eggs, and
that sort of thing; but what I am afraid of is, that persons may go
there and buy fish.
13,327. The inhabitants there are under an obligation, as a
condition of their tenure, to fish for you?-Yes.
13,328. As the landlord, do you place a restriction upon the sale of
their cattle also?-Yes, there is a rule to that effect, but it is a very
lax one.
13,329. Is it not virtually the result of the obligation to fish or to
sell cattle to the proprietor alone, that the proprietor has the power
of fixing the price, and that the tenant has no option at all with
regard to that in either case?-That is not the result. Even
although the proprietor buys the cattle and prevents any one else
from competing with him, still he respects public opinion so far,
that he gives the full value for the animal.
13,330. Then public opinion is the only check upon the proprietor,
and of course his own sense of right?-That is his only check.
13,331. How do you ascertain the current price of fish, according
to which you pay your men at the end of the year?-There is an
understanding among the principal fish-curers with regard to that.
13,332. Is there a consultation upon the subject?-Yes, either
directly or indirectly, and they all pay the same.
13,333. Do you send your fish Scotland generally, or do you send
them abroad?-I send them principally to Ireland. Our fishing
here is principally for saith, which is not carried on to any great
extent in any part of the country except in this parish; and that kind
of fish only finds a market in Ireland.
13,334. Did you pay as high a price for saith last year as Mr. Smith
and Mr. Tulloch?-No. I have not settled yet for last year.
13,335. But you did not get such a price for your saith last year as
would justify you in paying so high a rate?-I did not; and I can
explain the reason. These small curers send their fish away in
retail lots, and realize a price for them that no large curer can get.
13,336. Have the small curers more trouble in selling?-They have
much more trouble; but they do the work themselves, and they
don't take that into account.
13,337. Does that not show that fishermen curing on a small
scale on their own behalf might realize higher prices if they
could cure equally well with the large curers?-Not if all the
fishermen were on that footing. Unless they entered into some sort
of co-operation, they could not get their fish sent to market at all.
13,338. Would they not be likely to sell them through travellers
coming up for the purpose of buying fish?-Yes.
13,339. The returns with which you are to furnish me will apply to
the year 1870, as you have not yet settled for the year 1871?-Yes.
*Mr Bruce afterwards put in the following additional
statement:-
I may here mention that stores such as I keep at the stations
for the convenience of the fishermen do not pay as a speculation,
though we could not very well carry on the business without them.
For instance, the store at Grutness, some of the accounts of which
you examined, would show a balance-sheet thus-
Gross value of goods charged against the shop at retail prices
during season 1870 £410 11 21/2
Cost value of goods at the various
markets. £313 0 10
Freights on do. 28 16 4
12 tons coals at 21s. allowed to
storekeeper; say fire and light 15 0 0
Wages to storekeeper-I pay
£70 say for store 40 0 0
Nominal profit, say 13 14 0 £410 11 21/2
But against this nominal profit has to be placed rent of
shop, and house occupied by storekeeper, incidents such as
stationery, wrapping paper, twine, furniture, etc., interest on
capital invested in goods, loss in retailing goods, bad debts,
and loss by deterioration of goods on hand.
These figures are not supposed to be exactly correct, but they
are substantially so, and at all events are near enough to show that
these stores, as managed by me, do not pay, and would certainly
never be kept with a view to profit were they not required as a
matter of convenience.
In a place like Fair Isle, with a population of only 226, there is
only room for one store.
As I have to keep a store there for the convenience of the
islanders, I discourage them from trading with any one else, as the
only chance to make my store pay is to get the whole or the greater
part of their custom.
Though there is a rule that the islanders shall not trade with
others, I have never enforced this rule where I believed the parties
visiting the island did not attempt to buy fish-in fact, in many
cases I have given liberty to parties to trade with the islanders; and
the only case in which I have enforced the rule, as in the case of a
man from Orkney who, I had evidence to prove, stole my fish from
the station at night, and shipped it on board of his vessel.
I have no poor-rates and no paupers in Fair Isle, and I have
never evicted a tenant. If a widow or other poor person can't pay
their rents they sit rent free, and get help from their friends, and
my manager has orders to see that no one starves.
I may mention that I have some property of my own in
Sandwick parish where the tenants are free to fish to whom they
like, and they do not fish for me; but they pay good rents, and are
not in arrears.
I also manage a property in the parish of Cunningsburgh
belonging to my father. It consists of 69 holdings, at a rental of
£194, 19s. 7d. and the arrears of rent due on the property when I
took the management of it in 1869 amounted to £487 10 3
Since then I have received payment of £97 9 21/2
And have written off in compromise
with tenants deeply in debt, sums
to the amount of 63 11 7
Thereby reducing the balance to 326 9 5
£487 10 3
These tenants are free to fish to whom they like, and none of
them fish to me. I have not yet evicted any tenant, and if they go
on as they are doing I may have to make no change; but should
they fail to pay their rents as in times past, I must either evict the
non-payers, or take the fishing into my own hands.
JOHN BRUCE, jun.
SUMBURGH, SHETLAND,
1<st. Feby>. 1872.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ROBERT HENDERSON
(recalled), examined.
13,340. I understand you want to make some explanation of your
previous evidence?-Yes. I said that when we bought fish we paid
for them when they were delivered. As a rule we do, and any party
who wishes to be paid at once can be paid at once; but sometimes,
when a few men are going in one boat, they wish merely to have
the weight of the fish marked, and then have it squared off perhaps
in a month or two or at the end of the fishing.
13,341. You are speaking now of the winter and spring fish?-
Yes.
13,342. So that you have some accounts for fish?-Yes.
13,343. And these may be liquidated partly by the men taking
goods?-Yes, just as they like.
13,344. In these cases, is there a ledger account with the goods on
the one side and the fish on the other?-Yes, if the men choose to
have it so; but it is entirely at their own option whether they are to
be paid at once or whether the fish are to be put into the account.
13,345. What may be the amount of these accounts generally?-
Will they be as much as £2 or £3?-Yes; sometimes £4 or £5.
13,346. In some of these cases no cash may pass at all?-As a rule,
the men wish, to have the cash placed to the credit of their private
accounts; but if they wish cash at once they can get it.
13,347. Will you have 20 or 30 of these accounts in a year?-No.
There may be four or five accounts for crews in that way, but they
are the exception. As a rule, we pay for the fish when we receive
them.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, OGILVY JAMIESON,
examined.
13,348. You are shopkeeper at Mr. Grierson's shop at
Quendale?-I am.
13,349. Do you also act as factor or overseer on his property?-
Generally I do.
13,350. Do you keep all the books connected with the fish-curing
and shop business?-Yes.
13,351. How many fishermen are employed by Grierson?-
Perhaps from 80 to 100 hands, men and boys.
13,352. How many do you employ in the curing?-Generally 14 or
16.
13,353. When you take on a boy as a beach boy, is he paid by a
fee?-Yes.
13,354. That is settled like the fishermen's accounts at the end of
the season?-Generally; but sometimes they want to know their
wages before and they are told what they are.
13,355. Do you ever pay these fees as advances, or during the
course of the season?-Generally, when they require anything,
they get it from the shop, and the balance is paid in cash, or the
whole amount is paid in cash if they have taken no advances.
13,356. I suppose a beach boy, or one employed in the fish-curing,
generally begins by opening an account and taking out supplies?-
Sometimes they do, and sometimes not. Some of them have not
taken out more than perhaps 2s. during the whole season.
13,357. Do three-fourths of them run up accounts?-They
generally do to a small extent, but not to the full amount of
their wages.
13,358. What is the average fee for a boy?-It is generally 30s. for
the first year, and it is advanced according as they are found to be
worth it. 50s. was the highest we paid the boys this year.
13,359. Will a boy ever have 10s. or £1 to get at the end of the
year?-Yes, and sometimes more. I should wish to state that we
had a boy last-indeed we have had him for two years-over
whom we have no control. Last year he had 25s., and in the
present year he was engaged for 27s. but I paid him 30s.
13,360. I understand there are some of the boys over whom you
have control?-Yes.
13,361. That is to say, they are the sons of tenants?-Yes; and it is
one of the conditions of their holdings, that they have to supply
boys when they have them suitable for the purpose.
13,362. That is one of the conditions, in the same way as it is a
condition of their holdings, that if the tenants themselves engage
in ling fishing at all, they shall fish for Mr. Grierson?-Yes.
13,363. Have you known any cases of boys engaged to other
employers who have been required by Mr. Grierson, or by you
on his behalf, to give up that engagement and come to you to
work at the beach?-There has been no case of that kind, to my
knowledge.
[Page 333]
13,364. Do you know James Jamieson at Berlin?-I do.
13,365. Had he a son, a boy of thirteen, employed with you
lately?-Yes, last year.
13,366. Are you aware that he had previously been engaged as a
servant to a neighbouring farmer, and that Mr. Grierson required
him to come and work at fish-curing?-I did not know that he was
engaged at all.
13,367. Who engaged him for the curing?-I did.
13,368. Did he not state to you that he was already engaged to
another master?-Not that I remember of.
13,369. Do you know James Brown, Millpond?-Yes.
13,370. Is he an elderly man now?-Yes.
13,371. Is he engaged at the fishing?-No.
13,372. Do you know whether he had to pay £1 of liberty
money?-He has not done so within the last year or two, to my
knowledge; but I think he paid it in 1869. However, I am not quite
clear about that. I know that I got notice about the liberty money,
and I think either he or his son went to Lerwick to Mr. Grierson
about it.
13,373. Did he pay it?-I cannot say.
13,374. Was he at that time an old man, and fishing with two
or three other old men, but not actively engaged in the summer
fishing?-He was not fishing at all, so far as I know.
13,375. Then why had he to pay liberty money?-I don't know.
Perhaps it may have been on account of his son, but I cannot say.
13,376. Would any transaction of that kind take place with Mr.
Grierson and not with you?-It might.
13,377. Do you know Charles Eunson?-Yes.
13,378. Had he to pay liberty money in 1867?-I cannot say; I
have only been three years in Mr. Grierson's employ,
13,379. Is Brough on the Quendale estate?-Yes.
13,380. Do you know James Shewan, who lives on the Brough
property?-Yes.
13,381. Whom did he fish for last year?-I think he cured fish for
himself. He was fishing at Scatness, and I think he delivered his
fish to Hay & Co.; but I am not sure.
13,382. Had he to pay £1 of liberty money at last settlement?-
Yes.
13,383. Was that in January 1872?-I think it was before January;
but he paid it at the settlement.
13,384. Have there been other cases of liberty money being
exacted and paid in 1871 and 1872?-There has been one other
case besides Shewan's.
13,385. Why did these men choose to pay the fine rather than to
deliver their fish to you?-I cannot say. One man who pays it does
not fish at all, and I suppose they think they get value for it, or else
they would not pay it.
13,386. Who pays it and does not fish?-William Gilbertson, the
Mails.
13,387. You have not got the books connected with the fishing
business in your possession at present?-No; they are all in
Lerwick at present, except one daybook.
13,388. I noticed an entry in one of your books this morning, of
one boll meal sold on 2d June 1870 at 16s. 6d.?-Yes, that was the
price at that time.
13,389. Did the price vary much during that year?-Very
considerably.
13,390. What would you consider a fair average of the price for
that year?-I think it was from 17s. 6d. to 22s. or 23s. per boll, so
far as I remember.
13,391. Do you think 22s. or 23s. was the highest price during the
year?-I think so; but I am merely speaking from recollection.
13,392. What is the price of a 2 lb. line at your shop?-2s. 3d.; 21/4
lbs. is 2s. 6d.; 13/4 lbs, 2s.; and 11/2 lbs, 1s. 9d.
13,393. How many kinds of tea do you keep?-Three kinds, which
we sell at 8d., 9d., and 10d.
13,394. How many kinds of sugar?-Three kinds, which we sell at
5d., 6d., and 61/2d.
13,395. What is the price of your tobacco?-1s. and 1s. 2d. per
quarter for mid and small tobacco. We sell it at 31/2d. and 4d. per
ounce for single ounces and 6d. and 7d. for two ounces.
13,396. Do your men own their own boats?-Yes, entirely.
13,397. You not hire out any boats?-Not any.
13,398. Do you sell the boats to them?-No; they buy them for
themselves, or Mr. Grierson buys them for them.
13,399. Do you make an advance to them for the purchase of
boats?-Yes; we generally give a line as security to any person
supplying boats to the men.
13,400. Does the builder obtain the payment from you?-Yes. He
is paid direct by us in cash.
13,401. Do you get repayment from the fishermen by
instalments?-Not by instalments; they sometimes pay it all
up in one year, but sometimes when a man is in arrears it runs
over a good many years before it is paid. The sum he is due for
his boat is included along with the rest of his dealings.
13,402. Is it the small boats that are used at Quendale?-No; we
have mostly large boats now, which cost about £20.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, HENRY GILBERTSON,
examined.
13,403. You keep the post office at Virkie near Sumburgh?-I do.
I am a tailor to trade.
13,404. You are aware that the men in your neighbourhood are
under an obligation to fish for the tacksman of the estate and that
many of them deal at the shop at Grutness?-Yes.
13,405. I presume there is no obligation upon them to purchase
their goods at that shop?-I suppose not, unless circumstances
compel them to do so.
13,406. What circumstances compel them?-There are many of
them who have not got cash with which to go to any other place.
13,407. Have you sometimes purchased goods at the Grutness
store yourself?-I have occasionally.
13,408. Did you find the quality and the price good and
reasonable?-The price was generally higher than I could
purchase the goods for at any other place, and the quality was
sometimes as good and sometimes not so good. About a year
ago there was cotton at Grutness at 16d. a yard; but it had been
purchased during the time of the American War, when the price
was high, and the price was kept up still. I have some goods that
were given to me to supply Mr. Bruce's fishermen with including
some of that cotton, and I have never been told to reduce the price.
13,409. Were you entrusted with that cotton to sell it?-Yes. I got
about £50 worth of cloth and furnishings about five years age to
supply to such tenants as had not the means to go to any other
place; and although the prices of cotton and wincies fluctuated
since I have continued to sell at the same price. Of course most of
it is gone now.
13,410. But you have been selling it at that advanced price?-Yes.
The fishermen have taken it who had no other way of getting it.
13,411. Have they taken it on credit?-Yes; most of it has been
given on credit. There were very few who have taken any of it
except those who had no money to go to any other place.
13,412. If they had had money, would they have been able to get
exactly the same article at a cheaper rate?-The cloth was pretty
moderate, because, when I brought it from Grutness, Mr. Bruce
asked me how it would range with the cloth Mr. Henderson had. I
told him it was dearer, and he said he would take off some of the
price of it, for he meant to give the fishermen the same advantage
which they got in another shop; and the three pieces of cloth
which I got were reduced 1s. upon each yard. In that case no one
complained about the price of the cloth, only the furnishings were
higher.
[Page 334]
13,413. Is there any other article with regard to the price and
quality of which you can speak?-I have not dealt in Grutness for
some time, because I generally had money, and I bought my goods
elsewhere, where might get them cheaper. I got most of them
from Mr. Henderson, and some I got from Lerwick.
13,414. Do you sometimes buy from Hay & Co.'s, shop at
Dunrossness?-Yes,
13,415. Are some things cheaper there than at Grutness?-Some
things are and other things are much about the same.
13,416. What things are cheaper?-Tea and sugar, and such things
as these.
13,417. Is Hay & Co.'s shop nearer to you than Grutness?-Yes.
13,418. Is it nearer to most of the people than Grutness?-Yes.
Grutness is rather out of the way.
13,419. Do you know anything about a meeting that was held at
Grutness, some time ago?-I know there was a meeting of
fishermen held at the schoolhouse but I was not there. After the
meeting several of the men came to my house on their way home,
and spoke about what had taken place. They were generally
dissatisfied with the way in which the meeting had been
conducted.
13,420. What was the occasion of the meeting?-It was in order
that they might lay their grievances before the commissioner at
Lerwick. I believe one of the men actually went there.
13,421. Did you understand that the others were unwilling or
afraid to go?-I understood, from what they said, that they were
unwilling, for fear of offending their masters. They told me that at
the time.
13,422. What did they say?-They accused some of their number
of cowardice. Some were frightened for one thing, and some for
another.
13,423. What were they afraid of?-Just of offending their
masters; that was their principal idea. They were afraid they
might be warned.
13,424. What was the complaint they had to make?-I believe
their principal complaint was about the bondage which they are
under.
13,425. Do you think they have not so much to say about being
settled with only once a year?-Of course that was discussed too
and they thought it was not right. They thought the settlement was
made too late in the year. That was one of their objections; but the
principal thing was, that they wished their liberty to sell their
produce to any person who would pay the best price for it.
13,426. Have you lived in Dunrossness all your life?-I have been
in Dunrossness all my life except twelve years, when I was south.
13,427. Was your father a farmer or crofter and fisherman in
Dunrossness?-Yes.
13,428. Before Mr. Bruce took the fishing into his own hands, I
believe, the tenants were free?-No; the fishermen were bound
some forty-three years ago. My father held a croft then on the
estate of Brough, of which Mrs. Sinclair was proprietor, and she
bound him over to fish for Mr. Bruce at that time, although she
did not take the fishing herself. That fishing came to be the most
ruinous concern that ever happened to my family, because it
brought my father into debt that he might otherwise have been
clear of.
13,429. How did it bring him into debt?-Because the fish were
not managed properly, and of course they came to be sold as bad
fish, and the men got nothing for them, or next to nothing. I heard
my father say that they got 3s. 11d. for dry fish in the last year of
the fishing, and they had to pay for salt and cure out of that.
13,430. Could a free man, at that time have got more?-A free
man was getting from £9 to £10 a ton; and things came to such a
pass that the people got desperate. There were poor years at the
same time, and the men applied to their landlord, and got their
liberty on condition of paying 15s. a head of liberty money. That
was kept on until a few years ago, and then it was put into the rent
again.
13,431. But it has only been since 1860 that the men have been
bound again to fish in this district for their landlord; they were free
before that time?-Yes, they were free for about twenty years. Of
course I have always been a free man, because I have not been a
fisherman.
13,432. Have you known many men in your district being warned
in consequence of fishing for others than their landlord?-I have
not known many.
13,433. Have you known men who would have fished for others if
they had not been afraid of being warned?-I suppose they would
have preferred that but warning comes to be a very serious thing
here. In the south a man can shift from town to town and get
employment: but here, if he leaves his house and farm, he has no
place to go to except Lerwick, and there is no room to be got there,
either for love or money.
13,434. Do you know of any case where compulsion has been
used to oblige any of the men to deal at any of the stores in the
district?-I cannot say that I have.
13,435. Do the men never get a hint to that effect?-No; but I
suppose they are obliged to go through necessity, because they
have no money with which to go anywhere else.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, GEORGE M'LACHLAN,
examined.
13,436. Are you the principal lightkeeper at Sumburgh
Lighthouse?-I am.
13,437. Where do you get the supplies for your house?-I get most
of them from Aberdeen and Granton.
13,438. Do you purchase them yourself?-Yes.
13,439. They are not supplied by the Commissioners?-no.
13,440. Have you got any supplies at the neighbouring shops?-I
have got very little from Grutness.
13,441. Have you got any from Hay & Co.'s shop, from
Quendale?-No. I opened an account with Mr. Henderson
after I came; but I have only been here since 1st. July.
13,442. Have you found Mr. Henderson's goods reasonable in
price?-Quite reasonable in price, and good in quality.
13,443. How far is his shop from you?-About six or six and a
half miles.
13,444. How far is Grutness from you?-About one and a quarter
mile, or a little more.
13,445. How far is Hay & Co.'s shop?-About two and a quarter
miles.
13,446. How far is Quendale from you?-I think about four miles.
13,447. Why do you go so far as Mr Henderson's or Aberdeen,
or Granton for your supplies?-I opened an account at Mr
Henderson's shop, because I could get anything there that I
wished, and because Mr. Henderson was highly recommended to
me before I came to the country at all.
13,448. Have you found the supplies at Grutness to be
expensive?-I never bought much there.
13,449. Did you find that that shop was understood in the
neighbourhood to be an expensive one?-I have heard people
say so.
13,450. Was that the reason why you did not get your goods
there?-Not particularly. One reason was because it was dear,
and another reason was that they cannot supply us with general
articles such as we want. I thought it was much better to open an
account with man who was reasonable in his charges, or who at
least was recommended to me as such, and a man who could
supply me with anything I wanted.
13,451. What have you bought at Grutness or at the other shops?-
Sometimes I have bought small things such as tobacco, but my
wife has got most of the things we required.
13,452. Have you bought any tobacco at Hay & Co.'s?-Yes. I
found it to be of ordinary quality. I think [Page 335] the price was
4s. 4d. per lb., as far as I can recollect but I am not quite sure,
because I never bought much there. I could have got tobacco of
about the same quality at Mr. Henderson's for 3s. 6d. I now
produce a piece of Mr. Henderson's very good tobacco.,
13,453. Have you bought tobacco at Grutness also?-Only very
little. I don't like the sort of tobacco that is kept there. There are
two kinds kept at Grutness: but the best quality is too small in twist
for smoking, and I don't care about teasing it up.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, LAWRENCE GARRIOCK,
examined.
13,454. Are you a fisherman at Scatness?-I am.
13,455. Are you bound to fish for anybody?-No. I have always
been at liberty. I am on the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister,
and I generally fish for Hay & Co.
13,456. They are the factors on the estate?-Yes.
13,457. Do you deal at their shop?-Yes, occasionally, when I
like.
13,458. Do you pay your rent to Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co.?-Yes.
13,459. Does he come down to settle at Dunrossness every year?-
Yes. He settles in a room above the shop at Laighness.
13,460. Do you go through the shop to it?-Yes.
13,461. Have you generally money to receive at settlement?-I
have had a little to receive for some years; but I run an account at
the shop, and I am almost always in debt.
13,462. If you have got money to receive, is it paid to you in
cash?-Yes. I am paid in cash what is due.
13,463. If there is anything due to you, do they ask you, as you
come through the shop, if you want any goods?-No, that is left to
my own choice.
13,464. But it would be quite fair to ask?-Yes, but they don't do
it.
13,465. Are you satisfied with the quality of the goods you get
there?-Yes. I never had any reason to complain about the
quality, and the price is something similar to what I could get
them for at other places.
13,466. At Grutness, for instance?-I never had much dealings
there. It lies rather out of my way.
13,467. Is Hay & Co.'s shop the most convenient shop for you?-
Yes.
13,468. Have you ever dealt at Gavin Henderson's shop?-Yes, I
have tried it too.
13,469. Are not his goods cheaper than Hay & Co.'s?-No; they
are much about the same. I could not say there was much
difference. I have bought meal, cottons, and tobacco from him,
land the difference in price was not worth mentioning.
13,470. Do you keep a pass-book at Hay & Co.'s?-No. I just
trust to those who are serving me.
13,471. Were you at a meeting of fishermen held at Scatness a few
weeks ago?-I was.
13,472. What was the object of the meeting?-I could
scarcely say. The men assembled on purpose to give you (the
Commissioner) some information about how they were situated,
as you had come to Shetland to inquire into the matter; but when
they were met together, they appeared to be frightened to say
anything at all. Therefore the meeting was broken up, and every
man went home.
13,473. How did it appear that they were frightened?-By the way
in which they behaved at the meeting. There was a paper drawn
up, and the men were to sign their names to it, but none of them
would sign their names except about a dozen or so. The rest
appeared to be very much frightened, and I told them so.
13,474. What were they frightened of?-They did not say, at least
I did not hear them; but it was supposed they were frightened for
the proprietor giving them their warning.
13,475. If they did not say it, how did you know they were
frightened for that?-Because none of them would sign their
names to the paper which was to be sent to you.
13,476. They might not have had any grievance all?-They might
not; but all the men who were present wished to be at liberty to
fish, and they were frightened to sign the paper saying that they
wanted that. At least they appeared to be so, from not putting
down their names.
13,477. Did not some of the men who were present come to
Lerwick?-Yes. One man went, and some others went when
they were summoned.
13,478. How did you happen to be at the meeting when you were
not a bound man?-I went to see whether anything would be said
about the right of the landlord to take one-third of the whales
which are driven ashore. Occasionally whales are driven in from
the sea; and I have seen us commencing at six o'clock on summer
morning and working till late in the afternoon, or perhaps six at
night, in getting them secured. Then, when the whales were
flinched, the proprietor came in and took away one-third of the
proceeds, and we were rather dissatisfied about that.
13,479. Do you think you ought to have got the whole?-Yes.
13,480. Did you not flinch the whales upon his shore?-Yes, but
below high-water mark.
13,481. Has it not been always the custom in Shetland that the
proprietor gets one-third of the blubber?-It has been so all my
time.
13,482. Why do you submit that if it is not right?-The way we
submit to it is because they have told us that if we carried off all
the blubber they would raise the rent of the land we were
labouring.
13,483. Who has told you that?-It has been said all my time.
13,484. Has any proprietor ever told you that?-There are men
who have asked it and striven for it in my time. I have never done
it myself, although I was very much dissatisfied about it: but the
poor men are frightened to presume any further, for fear of the
land being further burdened upon them, and it is so much
burdened just now that we can scarcely pay for it.
Boddam, Dunrossness, January 26, 1872, ARTHUR IRVINE,
examined.
13,485. Are you a fisherman at Garthbanks, on the Quendale
estate?-I am.
13,486. You have handed in to me a document signed by 28
fishermen on the Quendale property, stating that 'We, the
undersigned, hereby certify that we have been honourably dealt
with by Andrew J. Grierson, Esq. of Quendale, our present
landlord and fish-merchant; and it is our desire to continue with
him as our fish-merchant, and resolve that no other fish-curer in
Shetland will get our fish until he refuses to take them?'-Yes.
13,487. How long have you fished for Mr. Grierson?-About 13
years.
13,488. Have you always sold your fish to him?-Yes.
13,489. And have you always got a fair price for them?-I have
got the currency of the country.
13,490. Could you have got a higher price anywhere else in the
district?-Not in our district, that I know of.
13,491. How far do you live from the place where the fish are
delivered?-I live close to it. The curing place is about 50 yards
from my house.
13,492. Who wrote this document?-I did.
13,493. When?-Yesterday.
13,494. Did anybody suggest to you to do so?-No. It was done at
my own option.
13,495. Did anybody speak to you about it?-No.
13,496. Did you just take it into your own head?-Yes, at six
o'clock last night.
[Page 336]
13,497. Did you get all these men to sign it last night?-Some last
night, and some this morning on my way here.
13,498. Are they all neighbours of yours, quite close to
Quendale?-Yes.
13,499. Were they all quite willing to sign it?-Yes; and more
would have signed it if they had been asked.
13,500. You think Mr. Grierson is a very good landlord?-Yes;
and we do not want to fish to any other. If there is any one better
than him we don't know it.
13,501. Do you think you would not make anything more of it by
curing your own fish and selling them to any other merchant?-
We cannot cure the fish ourselves on that station, because there is
no convenience except for one. There is room for all the boats,
but only room for one man. The beaching station cannot be
divided. It is not like down about Scatness, where there are so
many different places for landing.
13,502. Are you a skipper in one of Mr. Grierson's boats?-Yes,
of a six-oared boat.
13,503. Do you ever act as a factor to him?-No.
13,504. Do you receive his fish?-No.
13,505. Do you not hold any employment under Mr. Grierson?-
No. I have a bit of ground from him, and I act in looking after his
peat-mosses, but that is all the employment I have.
13,506. Do you get a small salary for that?-Yes.
13,507. Do you get all your goods at the Quendale shop?-Yes.
13,508. Do you get paid in money at the end of the year?-Yes;
any one who has money to get, has it paid to him at that time.
13,509. Have you always something to receive?-No, some years I
have something, and some years not.
13,510. Had you some cash to get last year?-No.
13,511. Were you behind the year before also?-I was not behind
for that year, but I had been behind before.
13,512. And there has been a balance against you for good number
of years?-Yes, because Mr. Grierson gave me an advance when I
first took the land from him.
13,513. Do you think that if you were not bound to fish for Mr.
Grierson your rent would be raised?-We think so, but perhaps we
my be wrong.
13,514. Has anybody suggested to you that your rents might be
raised if you were not going to fish to Mr. Grierson?-No, that is
only our own imagination.
13,515. Has Mr. Grierson ever said so?-Not to my knowledge.
13,516. Did you ever hear that he had said so?-No, I never heard
that.
13,517. Do you think it would be a reasonable thing for him to
raise your rents if you were not fishing for him?-I cannot say; I
think our rents are high enough as it is.
13,518. But you are afraid that your rents might be raised, and
perhaps that may be the reason for some you having signed that
paper?-It may have been, but I cannot say.
13,519. Are the goods which you get at Quendale store of good
quality and cheap enough?-They are as cheap as we can get
anywhere.
13,520. Have you dealt much anywhere else?-No; I have got
most of my goods there.
13,521. Do you know anything about Gavin Henderson's goods?-
I know a little about them, and I think they are very much the same
as at the Quendale store, both as to price and quality.
13,522. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.
13,523. Is there any other person present who wishes to make any
statement?-[No answer.] Then I adjourn the sittings here until
further notice.
<Adjourned>.
LERWICK: SATURDAY, JANUARY 27, 1872
<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.
JAMES POTTINGER, examined.
13,524. Are you a fisherman residing in Burra?-Yes. I live with
my father, who is a tenant there.
13,525 I understand you wish to make some statement; what is it
about?-It is about the way in which I have been served in Burra.
My father and I had to spend upwards of £12 on repairs on the
house where we lived about 1865; and in January 1866, when I
was in Messrs Hay's employment, they asked me for extra for peat
leave, because we put a small chimney in the bedroom end of our
house. I refused to pay it, but when Mr. Irvine settled with me he
paid me all except the pound, which he kept.
13,526. What employment were you in then?-I had been at
Liverpool with a cargo. I was not at the fishing at the time; I was
settling up for my voyage to Liverpool at the time when the pound
was taken off.
13,527. Had you got any supplies during that winter from Hay &
Co.?-I did not have much.
13,528. Had you been in their employment the summer
previous?-No; I had been in Messrs Harrison & Son's
employment at the Faroe fishing. When Mr. Irvine would not
give me the pound I said I would not sign the books, and I have
not signed my account yet. The thing ran on from then until last
year, when my father was charged £4 for the extra peat leave. He
came back to Burra and asked me what he should do, and then he
went in again to Lerwick and paid it. Then, this year, I went in to
Mr. Irvine and asked him if he was not to take off the pound, and
he said he would never take it off; and when my father settled this
year again he had to pay it.
13,529. Then that is a charge made upon your father and not upon
you?-Yes.
13,530 Is your father the tenant?-He is, but I went in and paid
half of the rent and got a receipt for that half; but the pound was
not included in it.
13,531. Why was it not charged upon you?-Because he gripped
my father for me.
13,532. But why was it not charged upon you first?-Mr. Irvine
told me that we were burning two fires in the house, and that I
would have to pay that, but I would not do it
13,533. Had you built an addition to the house when you were
married?-I was at the expense of building it. It was a new end to
the house that was built then.
13,534. Is it a rule that all who live on the island and burn a fire
have to pay peat leave?-Every house has the same privilege that I
have, but none of them pay it except myself.
13,535. How do you mean that they have the privilege?-They
have a small chimney in the bedroom, the other apartment in the
house, the same as I have.
13,536. Why do you come to me to complain of that?-I did not
think it would do any good, but I thought I would let you know
that such a thing was done, because I think it is unfair.
13,537. Has it anything to do with the fishing?-No.
13,538. Were you ever in Messrs. Hay's employment at the
fishing?-I was three years in their vessels as a lad, but that is
twelve years ago. I have been twelve years in Messrs. Harrison's
employment.
[Page 337]
13,539. Did you leave Messrs. Hay and go to Messrs. Harrison?-
Yes.
13,540. Did Messrs. Hay object to one of their tenant's sons
leaving their employment and going to fish in the smack of
another curer?-No.
13,541. Have you been asked to go in Messrs. Hay's smacks
since?-Yes. Mr. Irvine asked me to go in their vessels both in
1866 and 1867, in both of which years I had vessels from them in
the winter time, but I told Mr. Irvine that I would not leave the
vessel or the employ I was in and go with them.
13,542. Was it before or after you were charged that sum for peat
leave that you were asked to go?-It was in the same year. 1866
was the first time I had to pay £1 of peat leave.
13,543. But you said you were charged with that in January 1866;
was it before or after January 1866 that Mr. Irvine asked you to
go in his Faroe vessel?-It was both before and after I went to
Liverpool for Messrs. Hay in the 'North Sea Queen.'
13,544. Was it some time after you came back from Liverpool that
you were settled with?-No; it was in the same week or the week
after.
13,545. Had you seen Mr. Irvine after you came back and before
you settled with him?-Yes.
13,546. Was it when you first came back that he asked you to go to
Faroe in the following season?-It was at the time when I settled,
and also when I joined the vessel.
13,547. Do you think if you had not refused to go in one of Messrs.
Hay's vessels to the Faroe fishing you would have been charged
with peat leave?-I don't know about that.
13,548. Is the charge for peats just so much for each fire that is
burned?-We don't know; it is just included in the rent.
13,549. Is it not charged separately from the rent?-No; it is all
put together, so far as I know; it is all called land-rent.
13,550. Have you any note of your settlement with Mr. Irvine in
1866?-No. I don't think I got any receipt then; but I got a receipt
yesterday when I paid the half-year's rent.
13,551. I suppose the people in Burra were quite at liberty to go
to the Faroe fishing with any person they pleased during the last
twelve years?-No, some of them were not at liberty, but I was at
liberty because I had charge of a vessel. A single man who was
not master of a vessel did not have liberty.
13,552. How do you know that?-Because I have been told of
tenants who had to pay £1 in consequence of their sons going to
the Faroe fishing. Andrew Laurenson paid £1 for going to Faroe
in Messrs. Harrison's employ, and he has not got it back. I don't
know any one else who has not got the money back except him;
but there may be others who had to pay it, and who have not got it
back.
13,553. Were a number of the young men obliged to go to the
fishing in Hay & Co.'s vessels?-A good few of them went in
their vessels, and some of them left and went in the vessels of
other owners.
13,554. But did you know of any man leaving another owner's
vessel in which he was engaged, and going in one of Hay & Co.'s
because they required him to do so?-No; I only know that money
was paid for that.
13,555. Do you understand that if you had not been a master,
but had been merely an ordinary seaman, you would have been
obliged to go in Messrs. Hay's vessels?-So far as I know, I
would.
13,556. Would you have been bound to do so if they had offered
you as good a vessel as master as the one you were going in?-I
don't think it; I never heard anything about that. I wish to say that
I could get turf from another island which would not cost me over
one-fourth of the pound which Hay & Co. charged me for peat
leave. My father asked Mr. Irvine yesterday whether, if I got the
turf in that way, he would take the pound off me, and he said he
would not.
13,557. What kind of agreement do you sign with Harrison & Co.
when you go to the Faroe fishing?-It is a written agreement.
13,558. I suppose the fishermen in the Faroe fishing regard
themselves as partners with the owners of the ship to the extent
of one half?-Yes, that is what we sign for.
13,559. The owners of the ship are always the curers that you
deliver the fish to?-Yes.
13,560. And I suppose the owners employ men as curers?-Yes.
13,561. The payment which the fishermen get at the end of the
year will depend a good deal upon the way in which the fish are
cured, because, if they are ill cured, the fishermen will receive less
money?-Yes.
13,562. Or if the fish are ill sold the fishermen will also suffer?-
Yes.
13,563. Therefore the fishermen have as much interest in the
curing and sale of the fish as the owner has?-Yes.
13,564. But I suppose you leave the management of these matters
in the hands of the owners?-Yes; the owners have all the
management.
13,565. Is it understood in the Faroe fishing that you get one half
of the actual returns from the fishing?-They tell us so.
13,566. It is not according to any current price that you get it, but it
is one half of the actual price at which the fish are sold which you
are to get?-Yes.
13,567. And you trust entirely to the owners to obtain that price,
and to account to you for one half of that, under certain
deductions?-Yes.
13,568. Do you know what deductions are allowed before the
proceeds of the fish are divided?-I cannot tell; I have seen it all
in the agreement, but I cannot recollect what it is just now. It is
every man's wish to see a bill of sale for their fish at settling time,
but such a thing has never been asked for. I have never asked for
it so long as I have gone to the fishing.
13,569. You think you ought to see the bill of sale?-Yes; and that
is the opinion of all the fishermen, so far as I know.
13,570. Do the men in Harrison & Son's employment undertake to
be ready to join the vessel for putting in salt, bending sails, and so
forth, at a certain time before the vessel leaves?-Yes, and that is
usually done.
13,571. How long are you bound to remain in the vessel?-Until
about 13th August.
13,572. On board the vessel, what do you do with the fish when
you catch them?-We bleed them, and wash and split them, and
salt them in the hold, and generally prepare them so as to fetch the
best market.
13,573. The deductions which are charged before dividing the fish
are the expenses of curing and the price of the salt?-Yes. They
put the salt and curing altogether, and charge £2, 10s. for that.
13,574. They do not charge the actual cost, but make a slump
charge for the whole work?-Yes.
13,575. There is also an allowance deducted of 10s. per ton to the
master, and 2s. 6d. to the mate?-Yes.
13,576. And the agreement which you sign provides for a certain
quantity of bread for each man?-Yes, 8 lbs. of bread per week;
and there is an allowance of 9d. for score money. The score
money is paid before the division is made, so that one half is paid
by the owners and one half by the men themselves.
13,577. Is it also part of the bargain, that the fishermen are liable
for breaking lines or spoiling any part of the vessel?-Yes.
13,578. On returning you put the vessel into dock and unbend the
sails?-Yes.
13,579. There is a stipulation in the agreement against smuggling,
is there not?-Yes.
13,580. Is there any smuggling carried on at Faroe-Not a great
deal now.
13,581. Is there any arrangement about going farther north than
Faroe if required?-Yes; if the master thinks it prudent to go to
Iceland or elsewhere before a certain time, the men are taken
bound to go, and in that case they are paid by wages, which are
fixed in the agreement. They begin to run from the 13th or [Page
338] the middle of August, and continue till 1st October. But if
we are going to Iceland during the summer, the men run their
share of the fishing the same as they do at Faroe.
13,582. It is only for a late voyage to Iceland that they get
wages?-Yes.
13,583. Do you often go upon these late voyages?-I have done so
for the last few years.
13,584. Are the men bound to go upon them?-They are bound to
go if the master or owners require them; but there are plenty of
men to be got at that period of the year, so that if any man wants
his liberty then he can get it.
13,585. You can fill up your crew from other boats which are not
going upon these late voyages?-Yes.
13,586. Does the Iceland voyage commence from Foroe, or do you
come to from Lerwick first?-We come back to Lerwick.
13,587. There is a scale of victualling for that voyage contained in
the agreement?-Yes.
13,588. The men don't provide their own food?-No; it is
provided by the owners. The men provide nothing.
13,589. There is a less supply of bread on the Iceland voyage than
on the other voyage, is there not?-Very little less. They have 8
lbs. per week in the summer time, and 7 lbs. at Iceland.
13,590. Do you always get ample supplies according to your
agreement?-Yes.
13,591. Do you also get your small stores and outfits from the
owner's shop?-Yes. We always go to his shop for what we want
at leaving.
13,592. Do you also run an account with Messrs. Harrison for
supplies to your family during your absence?-Perhaps some of
the men do that, but I don't do it. I pay the money for what I want,
and get it where it can be got best.
13,593. Do you run no account at all?-Not much. I sometimes
run an account for a little with Messrs. Harrison when I want
anything,-perhaps in the year, and that is settled at settling time.
13,594. But most of your supplies you get elsewhere-at
Scalloway or Lerwick?-Yes.
13,595. Do all the men in your vessel keep accounts at Harrison &
Son's, and get their supplies there?-Yes.
13,596. You purchase your own lines and hooks for Faroe?-Yes.
A lead of lines for each man will cost about 11s.
13,597. Is that the only fishing expense that you have?-Yes; but
perhaps we may have two leads of lines in one summer.
13,598. Do you always purchase them from the owners?-Yes; or
they are put on board the vessel, and the men take them as they
require them. The master keeps an account of that.
13,599. How do you do on the Iceland voyage for these fishing
supplies?-The men pay hire for their lines on the Iceland voyage.
13,600. Then the lines in that case are at the owners risk?-Yes.
13,601. If they are lost, do the owners bear the loss?-The men
have to pay for them if they lose them, and if they return them they
only pay hire for them.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, recalled.
13,602. You have handed in an agreement for the year 1871 with
the crew of the 'Royal Tar?'-Yes.
13,603. Is that the form that is always used by Mr. Leask in
agreements for the Faroe fishing?-Perhaps a word or two may
vary, but that is the substance of the agreement. It is in this form:
'Royal Tar.'
'We, the undersigned, hereby agree to prosecute the cod and other
fishings ,in the said vessel wherever required by the master or
owner during the fishing season of 1871, that is, from the time we
are requested to join the vessel until the end of August if required,
it being understood that one half of the net proceeds of the fishing
belong to the owner of the vessel, and the other half to be divided
among the crew in the proportions set opposite their respective
names; the owner supplying the crew with 1 lb. of bread per man
per day.' Then follow the men's names and residences, and their
ages, the last ship in which they were employed, their capacity as
master, mate, second mate, sharesman, or half, or three-quarter
sharesman, as the case may be. In the next column there is given
the rate per ton of premium or extra above the share, being 9s. in
this case to the master, 3s. 6d. to the mate, and 1s. to the second
mate. Then follows the rate of score money to each man, being in
this case 6d. throughout. There is also a column for observations,
in which it is noted opposite the names of three men, and as much
as he is worth; how is that fixed?-It is left to the discretion of the
principal men of the vessel.
13,604. Is anything else of importance ever entered in the column
for observations?-If anything occurs, of course it will be entered.
I may mention that the time when the men generally have to join
the ship is about the middle of March. That time is not fixed by
the agreement; it is merely said that they have to join when they
are requested.
13,605. What do you do about an Iceland voyage?-The Iceland
voyage generally commences about the middle of August, after the
Faroe voyage is over. The agreement does not refer to that.
13,606. Do they make a separate agreement for an Iceland voyage,
the men being paid by wages?-Yes.
13,607. I understand you have something to add to your previous
evidence?-Yes. When my examination ceased previously, I think
I was speaking about the work-people, and I have now brought one
of the time-books to show the proportion of money and of goods
received by each. [Produces book.]
13,608. That is a time-book for the work-people employed in 1871
at Sound beach, which is about a mile from Lerwick?-Yes. It
shows the amount of cash paid, the balance, of course, being the
amount of their accounts for the week.
13,609. The first name is M'Gowan Gray?-He is the
superintendent.
13,610. The entry in his case is, Cash 2s., time 6, wages 10s.: what
does that mean?-He has 10s. a week of wages, six days a week,
and 2s. is the cash he has to get.
13,611. The entry in the inner column is made at pay-day, showing
the amount of cash he has to get?-Yes.
13,612. How is the amount of cash ascertained?-We have a
ledger account with each individual, which is settled every week,
but perhaps it may not be balanced. We do not generally balance
until the end of the year, but we square accounts before.
13,613. Is the account squared to ascertain the amount of cash
payable?-Yes, the amount of cash due to the individual.
13,614. Is that not a sufficient balance for the whole?-I daresay it
comes to the same thing as a sufficient balance, only the account is
not ruled off.
13,615. Is it done in pencil?-It is done in ink, but it is not ruled
off in lines; it is not added up.
13,616. But there is an addition made in the inner column in ink:
how is that done?-It is just like any ordinary account, with
double money columns. The wages are credited; then the goods
stand against them, and the balance is charged, so that the one
squares the other.
13,617. Is that done each week?-Yes.
13,618. Are the balances entered here always paid in cash?-
Always.
13,619. Are they never allowed to lie?-Not with the work-people.
13,620. Is the week ending 2d Sept. 1871, of which this-
[showing]-is the account, a fair average of a [Page 339] week
throughout the season?-I think it will be about a fair average.
13,621. It shows £5, 17s. 5d. as the total amount of wages earned;
and of that, £3, 19s. 7d. was paid in cash at the end of the week,
the rest having been taken out in the course of the week in
goods?-Yes, principally in provisions.
13,622. I see that in one case it had been altogether taken out in
goods, and there was no cash due?-Yes, but in others you will
find that there has been nothing taken out, and that the whole was
paid in cash.
13,623. I see that in six cases cash has been paid in full out of
twenty-seven people employed altogether?-Yes.
13,624. I fancy that in that week rather more has been paid in cash
than the average, because in the following week £2, 9s. 2d. was
due, and £1, 1s. 6d. was paid in cash. In another week £4, 12s. 2d.
was payable, and £1, 11s. 10d. was paid in cash. In another week
£4, 6s. 9d. was payable, and £1, 4s. 5d. was paid in cash, there
being twenty-five persons employed in that week. Then, in the last
week which appears in the book £3, 14s. 7d. was payable, and £1,
2s. 7d. was paid in cash, there being twenty-five persons employed
then also?-Yes; people, of course, require the same amount of
provisions, whether they earn much or little, the amount of their
balance in cash being less where the work has been less.
13,625. In the Faroe fishing formerly-I am not speaking of Mr.
Leask's business only, but of your general knowledge of the
country-was it the case that tenants were held under an
obligation to fish for particular persons, just as they now are
in some places in the ling fishing?-I am not aware of any
tenants having been compelled or bound to fish to their proprietor
in the Faroe fishing, either now or formerly.
13,626. When was the Faroe fishing introduced into Shetland?-I
think about 1851 or 1852.
13,627. Have you known cases in which proprietors or tacksmen
attempted to get their ships manned from their estates, not by
compulsion, but by persuasion or influence?-I am not aware of
any compulsion having been used at all.
13,628. When the Faroe fishing was first introduced, was it not the
case that a merchant's smacks were manned for the most part from
lands of which he was proprietor or tacksman?-I believe that is
quite true, because when a merchant had tenants he invariably got
the preference from them; but they were not bound to go to the
fishing for him.
13,629. There was not such a demand for places on board Faroe
vessels at that time as there is now?-Nothing like it.
13,630. Now the service has become more popular?-Yes; and the
number of the ships has increased considerably, so that the number
of men required is far greater.
13,631. Is there always an ample supply of men for that fishing?-
Not always.
13,632. When men fall short, what means do you adopt to increase
the supply? Have you to canvas for men, or do you raise your
terms, or what is done?-There is very little difference in the
terms. Men have been very scarce this season in consequence of
the bad fishing last year, but we have not altered the terms. I
remember one year we had to offer wages as an inducement to the
men to ship. In 1861 there was a bad fishing, and in 1862 we had
to guarantee them £1, 10s. a month of wages; but I don't think
fishermen in general like wages.
13,633. Have you ever had recourse to any other means except
persuasion to fill up your vessels not except persuasion; but we
have not been at a great loss for men. We have generally had as
many as we required, until this season. I don't think we will be
able to get as many as we require this season, because of the bad
fishing last year.
13,634. I suppose the great bulk of the business in Mr. Leask's
shop passes through accounts with fishermen and others?-Yes,
the great bulk of it.
13,635. When a man pays in cash for the goods he buys, does he
get a discount?-No. We price the goods at the very lowest at the
commencement, and we don't alter the prices.
13,636. There are not two prices, according as the man pays in
cash or takes it out in his account?-No, it is all the same price.
13,637. Then a man has no advantage in paying cash?-None
whatever.
13,638. And he is not expected to pay in cash?-Not if he be
employed by Mr. Leask. Of course we sell a great quantity of
goods for cash to persons whom we don't employ, both in the
provision shop and also in the draper.
13,639. In addition to the fish which are delivered in a wet state at
your stations, do you purchase dry fish?-Mr. Leask has been in
the habit of purchasing ling for a firm in Dublin for many years.
He also buys cod in a dry state occasionally.
13,640. Last year, I understand, you bought all the Greenbank
fish?-Yes, all the Greenbank ling, not the other.
13,641. And also some from Mossbank?-Yes.
13,642. Did you also buy dry fish from Thomas Williamson,
Seafield?-Yes.
13,643. Do you supply Pole, Hoseason, & Co. with goods as
wholesale merchants?-No.
13,644. Then these fish would be settled for by cash or bills?-
Yes; by cash at three months from the date of shipment.
13,645. Were these ling paid for at the current price-Yes, at £23
per ton, free on board at Mossbank or Cullivoe, the port of
shipment.
13,646. The men, I understand, are paid according to the current
price of dry fish at the end of the season?-Yes. They get all the
advantage that the curer can afford to give them. The price is not
fixed at the commencement, and I think it is much better not.
13,647. What was the current price at the end of last season?-
£23.
13,648. Is that calculated to afford 8s. per cwt. for green fish?-
Yes. In the previous year the price was, I think, £21 for dry fish,
and the price allowed for green fish was 7s. 3d. for ling. Of course
tusk and cod were much less.
13,649. How would a transaction such as you have mentioned be
taken into account in ascertaining the current price at the end of
the season? Would you stand in the position towards the curers of
a wholesale purchaser?-Exactly.
13,650. Do you think a number of small sales in the course of a
season may be able to get a higher price than a large curer who
sells all in a lump all the end of the year?-At rare times he may
sell a small parcel for a larger price; but generally, I think, the
small curers get a less price than we do at the end of the season.
13,651. Would you be surprised to hear that some small curers
were able to pay their fishermen much higher prices for ling and
all other fish than the larger curers, and that they have done so, in
point of fact, for some years back?-Such a thing is quite possible.
They may have got more for their fish when dry.
13,652. How would you account for that?-I cannot account for it;
it may have happened by accident.
13,653. Do they require less remuneration for their trouble?-No.
13,654. Or does selling in small parcels enable them to get a
higher price?-Sometimes it may.
13,655. Do you think they may sell to retail dealers at once, and
thus get the advantage of the retail price?-Perhaps they may sell
a small parcel at once at a higher price; but, as a rule, I don't think
they do. I think a large parcel generally sells best.
13,656. Is not a large parcel sold to parties who themselves supply
retail dealers?-Yes.
13,657. But a small dealer, by taking a little more trouble, may
possibly sell direct to the retail merchant himself, so that he
secures his profit without the intervention of another dealer?-He
may.
[Page 340]
13,658. Is that the way in, which you account for him getting a
higher price?-That is the only way in which I can account for it.
13,659. The small curers get not only the curer's profit, but
they also get the wholesale fish-dealer's profit at times, by selling
direct to the retail dealer. Do you think that is a reasonable
explanation of the matter?-I think so. It is the only way in which
I can account for it, because I know that the large curers pay the
utmost they can afford to the men.
13,660. Do you supply Thomas Williamson, Seafield, with
goods?-Yes.
13,661. Are these set in the account against the fish which you buy
from him?-Yes.
13,662. And that account is settled from time to time?-Yes.
13,663. Is that the only security which Mr. Leask has for his
supplies to Williamson?-Yes; in fact he has no security at all
until he gets the fish.
13,664. I suppose Mr. Williamson's is a case of man starting
business without much capital?-I think so.
13,665. Is Mr. Leask his security with the Commercial Bank?-I
know that he became answerable either for an account or for the
value of boats, or perhaps for both; but I could not say what he
may have done with regard to the Commercial Bank.
13,666. Are you aware that Williamson obtained letter from Mrs.
Budge's agent requiring the fishermen on Seafield to fish for
him?-I am not aware of that; I never heard of it before.
13,667. You showed me before the correspondence which had
taken place between Mr. Leask and Mr. William Jack Williamson.
In a letter dated 7th December 1869 Mr. Leask stated that he had
directed the fishermen to fish to him (that is, Williamson), and that
Williamson had become liable to him (Mr. Leask) for the rents as
James Johnston had done: had he done so?-I suppose Mr. Leask
simply recommended them to fish for Williamson; he did not
direct them.
13,668. But the word used in the letter is 'directed?'-That simply
means recommended. Mr. Leask never directed them to fish for
Williamson, or to fish at all. They might have gone to the ends of
the earth, to the south, or elsewhere, for anything he cared; but
when they did fish, I suppose he wished them to fish for
Williamson.
13,669. Probably that recommendation would be taken into
account in fixing the rent to be paid for Williamson's premises
at Ulsta?-It was not. The rent has never been reduced on
account of that.
13,670. But it would not be reduced; it would rather be raised,
because that would increase the value?-There was no such
understanding at all. I deny most positively that Williamson's
rent was increased in consequence of the tenants being allowed to
fish for him.
13,671. Was Williamson on the property when Mr. Leask
bought it?-Yes. Mr. Leask has been at very great expense on
Williamson's property, repairing houses, and one thing and
another, and very likely he would have raised the rent in
consequence of that. I think he paid about £20 one year for
improvements, and there were other improvements carried
through which cost a great deal of money; and I consider that
Mr. Leask was entitled to a percentage upon that.
13,672. Did he get a rise of rent?-I don't know that he did. I am
only saying that if he did get it he was entitled to it.
13,673. But is it not reasonable to suppose that man can pay a
higher rent for a piece of ground if the fishermen in the district are
under an obligation to deliver their fish to him?-He ought
certainly to pay more for a monopoly; there is no doubt about that.
13,674. Do you not know whether the rent was altered after Mr.
Leask bought the property?-I believe the rents in general were
raised a little,-not the whole of them, but a great many of
them,-because Mr. Leask has been at a great deal of expense in
building new houses, and otherwise.
13,675. Have you any doubt at all that the fact that the fishermen
were fishing for Mr. Williamson and Mr. Johnston was taken into
account in fixing the amount of their rents?-It had nothing
whatever to do with the fixing of the rents.
13,676. Was it merely as a favour to the merchant who occupied
the premises that the tenants were directed to fish to him?-Quite
so. It was merely a favour to recommend the tenants to fish for
him.
13,677. That was no favour to the fishermen, however?-I don't
think it was, but it did them no injustice, because I have no doubt
Williamson would have paid them the same price as other people.
13,678. Did Williamson become liable to Mr. Leask then for the
rents of the fishermen?-No, never. Williamson never became
liable for anything but the balance in his hands.
13,679. Mr. Leask's letter states that he had directed the fishermen
to fish to him, and that Williamson had become liable to him for
the rents, and he complains also that Williamson had not fulfilled
that obligation: had he not become liable?-He may have talked
about doing so, but he never did so.
13,680. Did he promise to become liable?-He may have
promised to become liable, but to the best of my knowledge,
he never did so.
13,681. Is it not a very usual, indeed almost a universal,
arrangement in Shetland, that some of the fishermen's rents
are paid to the proprietor by the fish-merchant to whom his
tenants fish?-Yes; I believe that is quite common.
13,682. Is it not very often done by debiting the fishermen with
the amount of the rent in the fish-merchant's books, and the
fish-merchant handing a cheque to the proprietor for the slump
sum of the rents due by his fishermen?-Yes, that is quite
common.
13,683. Is it not almost universal?-I believe it is, but in this case
it was not done. Williamson simply paid the balance in his hands
which was due to the fishermen. When the balance could not pay
for the rent, of course Williamson did not make it up.
13,684. He did not pay any rents for fishermen who were not able
to pay for themselves?-No.
13,685. But James Johnston had done so, and fulfilled his
obligation?-In one or two cases, I believe, Johnston did so.
I could not even say that he has done that, but I think there was
some understanding of that sort.
13,686. In that letter of December 1869 to Williamson, Mr. Leask
refers to Johnston as having fulfilled the stipulation on that point
which Williamson had failed to do. I suppose you have no reason
to doubt that that statement is correct?-None; only I was not
aware of it. I did not pay any attention to that part of the letter.
13,687. Is it the practice for Mr. Leask to pay to the proprietors the
rents of a number of fishermen who have accounts with him?-
No; he pays no rents for the men whatever.
13,688. That practice does not exist in connection with the Faroe
fishermen?-No. It is only in the home fishing, so far as I know,
that that is done.
13,689. Are the rents of any of the men employed in the Faroe
fishing by Mr. Leask paid through him to the proprietors?-If an
individual gave an order on Mr. Leask in favour of the proprietor,
of course it would be paid if the fisherman had funds in Mr.
Leask's hands to meet it.
13,690. But not otherwise?-Not otherwise. No guarantee is
given.
13,691 Are such orders frequently given?-Frequently; at least
they are not uncommon.
13,692. A fisherman sometimes, at or before settlement, gives an
order on the shipowner in favour of the proprietor?-Yes.
13,693. And you may perhaps have a number of such orders from
the tenants of a particular proprietor?-We have some, but very
few.
13,694. When a number of such rents are payable to single
proprietor, do you give him one cheque for the whole?-I don't
remember any order of that kind being given, except one.
[Page 341]
13,695. I believe you wish to make some additional statement
with regard to the Greenland whale fishery?-Yes. With your
permission I would again refer shortly to Mr. Hamilton's report,
in case there is anything in it which I left uncorrected when I was
previously examined. I think I showed last day that crews have
been discharged within about one month or less from the date of
their being landed; and I referred to the crew of the 'Esquimaux'
in May 1870, and to the crew of the 'Polynia' from Davis Straits in
November 1871. The former crew contained the latter, I think, 19
men, who were discharged within less than a month.
13,696. Have you known any other cases in which the crews were
discharged as rapidly?-I refer to the shipping master of the port
for other cases. I have no doubt there are plenty more.
13,697. Are there any others within your own knowledge?-I
don't remember any, but I have no doubt there are others. I
admitted that in some cases seamen have taken an unreasonable
length of time before coming to be discharged; but I explained
that that was not the fault of the agents, but of the men themselves.
Then I deny that the truck system in an open or disguised form
prevails in Shetland to an extent which is unknown in any
other part of the United Kingdom. I have no proof to offer in
contradiction of that statement; I simply deny it, and I don't
believe it.
13,698. What is the population of Shetland?-About 30,000.
13,699. Of these, how many do you suppose consist of fishermen
and their families?-I should say that perhaps about three-fourths
of them are fishermen and seamen, and their families.
13,700. I suppose the seamen are mostly the younger members of
the families?-Yes.
13,701. Is it not the case that almost every fisherman has an
account with the merchant to whom he sells his fish?-Yes;
but I don't consider that to be truck at all.
13,702. That account is settled at the end of the year, part of the
value of the man's fish being taken out supplies of goods, and the
balance being paid in cash, if any balance is due?-Yes. He
simply has an account, in the same way that all the retail
merchants in Shetland and everywhere else have to deal with
wholesale merchants, and have to pay them.
13,703. Do you suppose Mr. Hamilton meant anything else than
that by saying that the truck system prevailed in Shetland?-I am
not bound to know what he meant, but I deny his statement.
13,704. I presume he merely intended to state that a great part of
the earnings of every fisherman, as well as of some other people
in Shetland, were really settled by taking out goods from the
employers. Do you suppose he meant anything else than that?-I
am afraid he did. I am afraid he meant to convey the idea that the
men got nothing but goods when they should have got money.
13,705. Is it not the case that many of them do get nothing but
goods?-That is their own fault.
13,706. Still it may be the fact although it is their own fault?-It
may be the fact, because the men earn very little, and they require
supplies of provisions and clothing; and no person would give
them such supplies unless the person who employs them. But I
don't think that is truck, in the common meaning of the word.
13,707. Then the difference between you is rather a dispute about
the meaning of the word truck than as to the actual state of matters
in Shetland?-I would not even admit that. I don't think there is
any room for complaint about the state of matters in Shetland, as a
rule.
13,708. I suppose you mean that the fishermen have a certain
advantage by getting advances of goods?-Of course they have.
13,709. But you do not mean to deny the fact that they do get such
advances when they require them?-Of course I don't deny that;
but the shipowner or curer runs a great risk in advancing goods on
the security of fish which have to be caught. It is a very good thing
in a good season, but in a bad season he may come rather short.
13,710. On the other hand, he does not pay for the fish that are
caught until six or seven months afterwards?-He does not realize
them until then. None of the fish-curers get one penny for their
fish until about the end of December, except perhaps for a very
small parcel which they may send to a retail dealer in the south.
13,711. That may be quite true; but is any employer of labour in a
better position?-Yes.
13,712. A farmer, for instance, pays his labourers weekly or
fortnightly, as the case may be, and he very often does not realize
his crops until many months afterwards?-That is true; but he is
selling his butter and milk and cattle.
13,713. Still it does not follow that he is paid for them at the
time?-Cattle, I think, are generally paid for in cash.
13,714. But there are other producers, such as manufacturers, who
are only paid by long-dated bills, generally at three months?-Yes;
but here the merchant does not get his return until the end of
twelve months. The fish-merchant or curer begins to advance in
the beginning of January, and he continues to advance until the
end of December, without getting any money back; so that he lies
out of his money for twelve months. He neither gets money from
the party to whom he advances the goods, nor from the party to
whom he sells his fish.
13,715. Do you think that is the main justification for the long
settlements which are made with the men?-Of course it is.
13,716. Is it not possible for a fish-curer beginning business on a
small scale, to carry on his business without any capital at all, or
almost without capital?-If he gets assistance he may, but it is not
possible to do it without assistance. No one can carry on business
to any extent without capital.
13,717. But he requires only a limited capital, does he not?-He
requires a good deal of capital, but it depends entirely upon the
extent of his business.
13,718. He has no wages to pay until about the time when he
realizes the sales for the year?-But he has goods to supply or
money to advance.
13,719. But he may have a certain amount of goods which may be
got at three or six months' credit, according to arrangement?-
Yes.
13,720. For instance, Mr. Thomas Williamson, at Seafield, does
not pay for his goods, I presume, until his fish are sold to Mr.
Leask?-That is an exceptional case. If Mr. Leask or Mr. Adie, or
any other person, chooses to accommodate such a person as Mr.
Williamson, they may do so; but that is not the rule, by any means.
13,721. It is an exceptional case in this respect, that the fish-curer
there has a very small capital, and that he has obtained goods on
credit?-Yes.
13,722. Still it illustrates the possibility of doing these things
under the system which prevails?-Yes, I may mention that the
merchants in Lerwick are not so hard as merchants in the south, in
requiring that money must be paid at the end of three or four
months. A merchant in Lerwick may allow his account to run on
for twelve months, because that is the custom of the country.
13,723. Is that the only other point in Mr. Hamilton's report which
you wish to refer to?-No. I deny that almost every fisherman in
the island is in debt, and that his wife and other members of his
family are also in debt.
13,724. How do you know that?-I would refer you to the
bank-books, particularly to those of the Union Bank, and also
those of the Commercial and National Banks, and of the Post
Office Savings Bank, and the Seamen's Savings Bank.
13,725. Are these all the banks in Shetland?-Yes.
13,726. Are you aware that men who take advances in goods and
cash from you as their employer frequently have considerable
sums in bank?-Yes. I can point to a home fisherman, not a
tenant of Mr. [Page 342] Leask's, who has accumulated between
£100 and £200 within the last few years.
13,727. Does he take large advances?-I don't know what he
takes; he does not deal with Mr. Leask at all. I can also point to
a man in the Greenland trade, who within the last six years has
saved up, I think, about £130 or £140.
13,728. Do these men obtain advances from their employers in the
same way as other men?-Yes; they have accounts in the same
way.
13,729. But they have a large balance at the end of the year;
probably they don't allow their accounts to exceed their
earnings?-Quite so.
13,730. You don't know about the debts which stand in the books
of other merchants?-No.
13,731. So that you really cannot say to what extent fishermen are
in debt to merchants other than Mr. Leask?-I cannot say to what
extent they are in debt to other merchants; but I don't believe they
are in debt to any great extent. Part of them may be in debt to
some extent, but not the majority. The debtors must be a minority
among the men.
13,732. What is the next point in the report to which you wish to
refer?-I have already proved that the average quantity of ground
on the farms of Mr. Leask's estates in Sound and Whiteness is
about 12 acres, and not 3 or 4 acres, as Mr. Hamilton alleges, and I
produce the rent rolls and plans to show that the rent is under 10s.
an acre. In addition to that, in Sound and Whiteness the tenants
have the free use of extensive scattald for their sheep and cattle.
13,733. Are the farms divided there?-Yes, they are all divided.
In Yell the tenants have an unlimited amount of sheep pasturage,
for which they pay 6d. per head per annum.
13,734. Still these estates of Mr. Leask's only form a small portion
of the land in Shetland?-Yes; but I believe they may be taken as a
fair criterion for the rest.
13,735. Then you would say that this would have been a fair
statement if it had run thus: 'These fishermen for the most part
also rent small farms of about 10 to 12 acres, paying a rent of
about £6 a year?'-Yes; from £5 to £6 a year on the average. The
rents range from perhaps £3 to £12, but on an average they may be
taken as from £5 to £6. Then I admit that the direct profit from the
shipping agency or the commission allowed to the agents is not a
sufficient remuneration for the trouble the agents have and the
work they have to perform. I also admit that they do make some
profit from their customers; and also that many of the men
engaged are utterly unable, without assistance of the agents, to
provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage;
but I explain that in consequence of that the agent is very often
sacrificed in the event of a bad voyage, because then a number of
the young hands in the Greenland trade are always in debt.
13,736. Is it within your experience that a much smaller number
of green hands is now employed in the Greenland fishery than
formerly?-Yes, the number is much smaller than it used to be.
13,737. Is that in consequence of the reluctance of the agents to
engage green hands who require an outfit?-Yes. The agents do
not wish to give £5 or £6 of an advance for outfit to young hands
who have only 30s. to get.
13,738. Therefore they single out more experienced hands, who
get larger wages and require no outfit?-Yes, that is my
experience.
13,739. Has that tendency been very strongly exhibited within the
last few years?-It has been very strongly exhibited of late.
13,740. The agents have made a great effort to exclude young
hands, and to obtain experienced men?-Yes, and that admittedly
in consequence of the risk attending the advances to the young
hands.
13,741. Have the masters of the ships concurred in that course of
conduct?-They generally do so. So far as the sealing voyage is
concerned, they generally prefer to have experienced hands, but in
the whaling voyage they may have about one-fifth of young hands.
13,742. Have they complained about the reduction in the number
of young hands engaged for these voyages?-I cannot say that they
have.
13,743. Are the gentlemen here who act as agents authorized in
any way to engage men for ships?-The masters of the ships are
invariably present when the men are engaged; indeed they engage
the men themselves.
13,744. Then no engagement is made by the agents?-Very
seldom, unless in presence of the master.
13,745. Is that in order to comply with the 147th section of the
Merchant Shipping Act?-No; it is because the masters prefer to
see the men they engage. Two or three years ago, I think in 1869,
we engaged about sixty men and sent them to Dundee; but the
masters did not like that plan, and preferred to see the men
themselves.
13,746. Are you aware that the 147th section of the Merchant
Shipping Act provides, that 'if any unauthorized person engages
or supplies any mate, seaman, midshipman, or apprentice, to be
entered on board any ship in the United Kingdom, he will be liable
to be prosecuted; and if convicted, to a penalty of £20 for each
offence?' I was not aware of that.
13,747. It is also provided, that 'the only persons authorized to
engage or supply mates, seamen, midshipmen, and apprentices,
are the following: owner, the master, or the mate of the ship, or
some person who is the bona fide servant and in the constant
employ of the owner; the superintendent of a Government
Mercantile Marine Office, or an agent licensed by the Board of
Trade?'-I may mention that Mr. Leask is part owner of most of
the vessels for which he acts as agent; indeed of all except one.
13,748. Therefore he would not fall within that clause as you read
it?-No; he would not come within that.
13,749. But you say that, in point of fact, the practice here is, that
the seamen are engaged by the master of the ship?-They are
virtually engaged by the master.
13,750. And what takes place between the men and the agent
before that engagement, is merely of the nature of preliminary
negotiations?-Quite so; they are all engaged in presence of the
shipping master and the master of the vessel, or at least legally
engaged. That is the only binding engagement which is made with
them; and it is made in presence of the shipping master and the
master of the vessel. It frequently happens that we may arrange in
Mr. Leask's office with men to go in the ship, and they fail to
appear at the Shipping Office; so that the agreement in the office
of the agent is not at all binding.
13,751. Do you remember any occasion of the master of a ship
objecting to take any man whom you had recommended to him?-
I cannot say that I remember that, but it may have occurred. We
generally endeavour to get good men; but when men are scarce,
we may have been forced to take what men we could get, and
these may not have pleased the master altogether.
13,752. Do you remember any occasion on which the master of a
ship objected to take the men whom you wished him to take, and
suggested that you were asking him to take men who had accounts
with you in preference to others?-I don't remember of that; it
may have occurred, but I don't think so. I have known us
sometimes trying to persuade a master to take a young lad, out
of charity; and sometimes he would do so, against his own
inclination.
13,753. Mr. Hamilton says, 'It is quite common for allotments of
wages to be made out in favour of the agents; or, in other words,
for the agent to undertake to pay himself part of the seaman's
wages.' Is that so?-I already explained that we never gave
allotments.
13,754. He also says, 'Even those men who are able to pay for
their own outfit, and who might be able to obtain it at a cheaper
rate from some other shopkeeper, are practically debarred from
doing so?'-I deny that most emphatically.
[Page 343]
13,755. Do you say that a man who obtains an engagement
through Mr. Leask or you is quite at liberty to go to any other
shopkeeper and obtain his outfit from him?-Yes; he can go
wherever he pleases. Every man gets his advance note from the
shipping master, or at least in his presence, when he engages.
13,756. Have you never invited any of these men to obtain their
outfit at your shop?-We never invited them, but plenty of them
have done it.
13,757. Have none of Mr. Leask's people invited them?-No, we
never invited them; but they mostly all take a certain amount of
goods from us, for all that.
13,758. Do the preliminary negotiations to which you refer
generally take place within Mr. Leask's premises?-Yes; but
sometimes I have seen it done on board ship.
13,759. Are the same men generally engaged by you for a
succession of years, or do they change from one agent to
another?-It is not very common for masters to change their
men. The men generally stick to one master, and a great number
of them stick to one agent; but it is quite common for them to
change agents. Mr. Hamilton also says, 'Any man who carried his
custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him
would run the risk of being a marked man, not only with that
particular agent, but also with all the others, among whom the
news of his contumacy would soon spread.' I deny that entirely.
13,760. I think you told me in your previous examination that no
lists were now exchanged between agents?-It was the custom at
one time to exchange lists of balances due by seamen, but it is not
done now.
13,761. How long is it since that custom ceased?-I have seen
very little of it for a number of years.
13,762. Is it half a dozen years ago since it was given up?-Fully
that.
13,763. Have you known any case of a man being refused
employment in consequence of dealing with another agent for
his outfit?-Never. We were always anxious to get hold of good
seamen, whether they dealt with us or not.
13,764. Has that never occurred in the case of middling seaman?-
No; even then we never objected to take any seaman in
consequence of him going elsewhere with his custom.
13,765. Has there been a large supply of seamen during the last
few years for the Greenland trade?-They have been about equal
to the demand, certainly not more. I think when the ships were all
manned last year, the men were done. There may have been few
boys left, but the men were done when the ships were done,
13,766. Have you known any case of a man obtaining an
engagement through you and getting his outfit from another
shop?-I have no doubt there are plenty of cases of that kind,
but I could not point to any particular case.
13,767. Do you remember of any such case occurring?-I cannot
say that I remember; but I know that there are plenty of our men
who buy very little, perhaps only a few shillings' worth, from us
when they go.
13,768. But do you know any case of a man in want of an outfit,
engaging with you and getting that outfit from another
employer?-I cannot point to any such case.
13,769. The cases which you have in your mind, in which the men
have bought very little from you, may be the cases of men who
have been for many years at the fishing?-Yes, and who did not
require an outfit.
13,770. What was the state of the supply and demand in 1870?-I
think it was very much the same as in 1871: the supply was just
about equal to the demand, but in 1867 the demand was greater
than the supply. In March of that year the 'Jan Mayen' had to
leave here three or four men short of her complement. In 1868 I
think the supply was about equal to the demand, and also in 1869.
In the summer of 1869, after the month of May, the supply was
fully greater than the demand.
13,771. Were there few vessels going to the whaling that year?-
Yes. In May there were some vessels here engaging men, but we
had more men that year than ships.
13,772. How did you select your men that year?-The captain
selected there.
13,773. Had you no voice in their selection?-I was not present
when they were engaged. Mr. Leask and Mr. Andrew Jamieson
were present. I refer to the 'Camperdown' and 'Polynia' in May
1869.
13,774. Were these your only whaling vessels that year?-We had
more; but I think we had only these two in at that time when the
men were so plentiful. With regard to Mr. Hamilton's report,
again, I admit there is no time fixed for settlement, but I have
already explained that we cannot compel the men to come until
they like. I also deny that the men have to give back all the money
that they receive. I have shown that we paid £1120, 12s. 3d. to the
crew of the 'Camperdown' in 1865.
13,775. Mr. Hamilton does not say that the men had to give back
all the money that they received. What he says is, 'The man has
no option but to hand it all back to the agent at once, to whom he
is indebted in an equal or greater amount.' That is only that the
men who are in debt to the agent in an equal or greater amount
have to hand back the money to him?-The idea that is conveyed
is, that every man is in that position.
13,776. Do you deny Mr. Hamilton's statement, that 'when the
whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is, under this
system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the Shetland portion
of the crew should not be settled at once?'-Yes, I deny that. I say
that no man has to ask twice to be settled with.
13,777. That is not the question. Is it to the agent's interest that
the settlement should take place at once or not?-If we wish to
have as little trouble as possible, it is our interest to settle with the
men at once; but if an agent wishes to retain the men's money in
his hands for a month or so, it may be a little to his interest then to
delay the settlement.
13,778. May there not be a good deal of money his hands
belonging to the men?-There may.
13,779. It is quite a different question whether the agent acts as
his interest dictates, but still it is to his interest in such a case to
delay the settlement for some time?-I admit that it may be to
his interest to retain the money, but I deny that he delays the
settlement on that account.
13,780. He may have an interest to retain the money, and it may
also happen that a certain amount of supplies is being taken out by
the men before they are settled with?-It is very seldom that a man
buys anything after he comes home.
13,781. But even although that has not occurred in your business,
it is quite possible that in other businesses, or in the hands of an
unscrupulous agent-I don't suppose there are any such here,-the
settlement may be protracted in order that the agent may retain the
money in his hands, and be running up an account against the men
at the same time?-I say that the shipping agents in Lerwick are
all highly respectable men.
13,782. That is assumed in my question; but I am putting the case
of another kind of men engaging in the business. I suppose you
can conceive such a case?-Such a case is possible. Shetland is
not exempt from bad men.
13,783. In such a case, might not the settlement be protracted for
such reasons?-I don't think it could, because, if the settlement is
unduly protracted, the man has nothing to do but apply to the
shipping master and complain.
13,784. Still that would require an application to the shipping
master in order to get it put right?-Yes.
13,785. Do you deny this statement of Mr. Hamilton's: 'I need
hardly point out that it is clearly most important, in the interests of
the man, that he should not merely nominally but actually receive
his [Page 344] wages in cash, and be able to spend them as he
likes?'-That is common sense. There can be no doubt about that.
Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But while the men employed are not free
agents,'-I deny that,-'however fair an employer may desire to
be, he cannot treat them as if they were; and if, on the other hand,
the employer wants to make all he can out of those he employs,
and to take every advantage of their dependent position, he has
unlimited opportunity of appropriating to himself all the result of
their labour,'-I deny that,-'leaving to them only so much as is
absolutely necessary to prevent them from starving.' I deny that
he has the opportunity of doing that.
13,786. You will observe that it is not alleged that any agent in
Lerwick does so. All the allegation which Mr. Hamilton makes
is that the opportunity exists?-I deny that there is such an
opportunity, because Shetland men in general are very intelligent.
They are not at all what they have been represented to be. They
are a very sharp, acute, intelligent lot of people, and they are
perfectly able to take care, and do take very good care, to protect
themselves, and to make sure that their accounts are just. I further
think they are very provident, as can be proved by the amount of
deposits in the banks. I don't think they are an extravagant people
at all. In my opinion they are a very careful, active, energetic,
intelligent people, as a rule, much more so than will be found
among the same class of people in other parts of the United
Kingdom.
13,787. Do you think it is a sign of independence and intelligence,
and care in money matters, that fishermen and seamen should
leave all these matters in the hands of merchants and landlords?-
They don't always do that.
13,788. In the majority of cases they pay their rents through their
fish-merchant, and many of their accounts are paid by him?-That
must be so, because they have no other means of doing it.
13,789. Most workmen in other parts of the country have their
wages in their own hands every fortnight or every month, and can
disburse them at their own pleasure; whereas in Shetland the
universal practice is for the fisherman to run an account with the
fish-merchant to whom he delivers his fish, and the fish-merchant
transacts all his money matters for him. Do you think that is a
proof of their intelligence and independence?-The man has
merely a current account as he would have with a banker. He gets
money, or anything he likes, if he wishes to pay an account. I
suppose the fish-merchant, if he has money in his hands, would
give it to him; but to settle with the fishermen every week or every
fortnight is utterly impossible in Shetland.
13,790. Why?-Because the fishermen are in a sort of partnership
with their employers. For instance, in the Faroe fishing it is a joint
speculation betwixt the men and the owner. The men supply their
time and labour, and the owner supplies the vessel and other
things, and the men cannot get their share of the proceeds until the
fish are dried and sold. It is quite impossible for the fish-merchant
to settle with them every week or every fortnight unless they have
been paid by wages. Of course, if they were paid by wages, the
curer could settle at short intervals with the men, or with some one
on their behalf when they were away.
13,791. Is it not the fact that in almost every case the fishermen
depend for the accuracy of their accounts upon the fish-curer?-
No, they all have a good check upon their accounts. They have
them carefully read over, and every item criticised; and if they
don't remember exactly about a particular article, they will not
settle for it until they do remember.
13,792. You are now speaking of the Faroe fishing and the
Greenland fishing, of which you have had experience?-Yes.
13,793. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I should wish to
refer to certain passages in the previous evidence given before the
Commission in Edinburgh. In question 44,207 Mr. Smith is asked,
'Is it a fact, that very little money passes between the proprietor
and the fishermen on these occasions?' [that is, at settlement], and
he replies, 'It is the fact.' I say that it is not a fact, and I have
proved already that the men do get money. At Ulsta the amount
earned was £86, and the cash paid was £72.
13,794. Of course you are only speaking now of what comes under
your own observation in Mr. Leask's business?-That is all. Then
in question 44,219 Mr. Smith is asked, 'As a rule, are these
fishermen in their debt?' and he replies, 'I think very often they
are.' Now I say they are not in debt. The balances at the end of
the year are generally in their favour. Then, in question 44,225,
referring to the payment of the men employed at Greenland, Mr.
Smith is asked, 'Are the wages handed over to the agents?' and he
replies, 'The fishermen have the right of insisting that their wages
should be paid at the Custom House in terms of the articles, but
that is very extensively evaded.' I deny that.
13,795. Have attempts never been made to evade that rule about
paying wages at the Custom House?-I don't think so. There is no
chance of evading it:
13,796. Do you say that no attempt has been made to make
deductions other than those allowed by the statute at the time
when the wages were paid at the Custom House?-I say that,
during the first year or two, settlements were made in the Shipping
Office of the agents' accounts as well as of the men's accounts.
13,797 Was not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I
cannot say as to that.
13,798. When is the last payment of oil-money made?-It is not
always at the same time. Sometimes it is in November, and
sometimes in December.
13,799. Where is it paid?-At one time it used to be made in the
Shipping Office also, but now it is invariably in the agent's office.
13,800. Is not that an evasion of the Merchant Shipping Act?-I
don't think so. It is an arrangement between the parties. Mr.
Smith further says, that what he calls the evasion of the Act is as
much at the wish of the fishermen as at the wish of the proprietor.
That conveys the idea that the Greenland men are generally tenants
of the agent, but I may say that in the 'Camperdown' crew in 1865
only one man was tenant of Mr. Leask. In question 44,243 Mr.
Smith is asked, 'Confining ourselves to the whalers, is there any
reason why the settlement should be so long delayed?' and he
replies, 'I see none, except to save the merchants trouble.' I deny
that; and I say that it gives the merchants more labour and trouble
to be going up to the Shipping Office so often.
13,801. In the following answer Mr. Smith says the fisherman has
the power to insist on the settlement taking place at the Custom
House if he chooses. Have you known any cases where they have
insisted on that?-They don't require to insist. So far as we are
concerned, they never have to ask twice to be settled with.
13,802. Had you any applications from Shetland men before 1867
to have such settlements at the Custom House?-I cannot say that
I remember any. The custom then was to pay the men as soon as
we got the remittance from the owner, which was generally about
a month after the ship landed her crew. No doubt, if a man had
come before then wishing for settlement, we would have refused
to settle with him if we had not got the remittance. That, however,
was previous to 1867.
13,803. If a man insisted on getting payment and going to the
Custom House then, what would have taken place?-The Custom
House did not interfere then at all.
13,804. Then there was no case before 1867 or 1868 of a seaman
asking you to go and settle in presence of the superintendent?-
No.
13,805. And such settlements were never made presence of the
superintendent?-No, except in 1854 and 1855, and I explained
why we settled there then.
13,806. But from 1854 or 1855 down to the issuing [Page 344] of
the notice in February 1868, there was no instance of the
settlement being made before the superintendent?-None, to
my knowledge.
13,807. The accounts during that time were settled invariably in
the agent's office, in the same way and on the same principle as
fishermen's accounts?-Yes. Then, in answer to question 44,247,
Mr. Smith says he considers the system of barter to be hurtful to
the independence of the people very much. I deny that the people
are not independent. I consider them to be as independent as any
people in the kingdom. Mr. Smith also says, 'They don't know the
value of money, and they don't know how to eke it out, or make it
last. They are very improvident in that way, and a men's energies
are entirely destroyed.' I maintain that the Shetland people know
very well the value of money, and they also know how to eke it out
and make the most of it. I also say they are not improvident or
extravagant, but the reverse.
13,808. Do you think a man who is deeply in debt fishes as well
as a man who is not in debt?-It is an exception when a man is
deeply in debt: but that statement is a charge against the whole
people of Shetland. There are exceptions to every rule, and it may
be the case that some men are in debt.
13,809. But you don't know the circumstances of the whole people
of Shetland?-I have a pretty good idea with regard to most of
them.
13,810. Would it surprise you to be informed that two-thirds of the
fishermen in any district in Shetland were in debt at settlement to
the merchant to whom they sold their fish?-Yes, that would
surprise me.
13,811. Then the opinion you have formed as to the character of
the Shetland people proceeds on the supposition that that is not the
case?-It proceeds upon my own experience with Mr. Leask's
tenants and fishermen and seamen.
13,812. Would it surprise you to hear that a large proprietor in
Shetland had said that fishermen required to be treated like
children,-that they could not manage their own money matters,-
and that therefore he was obliged to take them into his own
hands?-I would be surprised to hear that, and I would not agree
with it at all. I have found them all to be very intelligent and very
sharp, and perfectly able to take care of themselves.
13,813. Do you think the men who are engaged in the ling
fishing are of the same class as those with whom you have had
dealings?-Some of them are the same, and I think the men
employed both in that fishing and in the Faroe fishing are all much
the same. They have all had the same opportunities. Then in Mr.
Walker's evidence, in answer to question 44,366, he estimates that
£60 or £70 goes into a Shetland house every year. I think that is an
over-estimate. About one half of that would be nearer the truth.
13,814. But his estimate of what goes into a Shetland house does
not apply to fish merely, but to all produce and stock from the
farm, and kelp and hosiery?-Still I consider that to be an
over-estimate, and I think about one half the sum he named would
be nearer the mark. Then, in question 44,368, he is asked, 'But the
greater portion of that is not paid in coin?' and he replies, 'Not a
fraction of it. If a man gets £1 or £2 out at the end of the season, it
is an extraordinary thing.' I deny that most positively, and I have
proved it not to be the case.
13,815. But that is only in your own business?-Yes. Then, in
answer to question 44,386, Mr. Walker says the cost of rearing a
lb. of Shetland wool was something like 8s. to 10s. He must have
been taking leave of his senses when he stated that. In order to
disprove his statement, I say that Mr. Leask's tenants in Yell pay
6d. a head for sheep for grazing over a whole twelve months, and a
Shetland sheep carries from 2 to 3 lbs. of wool on an average, so
that the cost of rearing it is something like 21/2d. or 3d.
13,816. But you don't include the price of the sheep or other
expenses except that of pasturage?-There are no expenses,
except driving now and then. They don't require to feed them in
winter, except perhaps for a day or so, when there is snow on the
ground.
13,817. Do they get no artificial food?-No. Very little of that is
ever imported.
13,818. You don't take into account the rent which the tenant
pays for his ground?-That has nothing to do with the rearing of
the sheep. They are reared altogether on the scattald.
13,819. But the use of the scattald is limited to tenants?-No.
Those who are not tenants get permission from Mr. Leask to graze
sheep on the scattald at 6d. per head, being the same rate as for
tenants.
13,820. Is that the usual practice in Shetland?-I don't know that
it is, but that is the practice with Mr. Leask, and plenty of people
who are not tenants of his enjoy the same privilege. I merely
mention that to disprove this statement of Mr. Walker's, which is
so glaringly incorrect. I hold that 1 lb. of Shetland wool as bought
from Mr. Leask's tenants costs only from 2d. to 3d. I don't think I
need take up your time by going over the evidence any further. I
would merely say that I disagree with all, or almost all, of Mr.
Walker's statements. The parts of his evidence with which I more
particularly disagree are contained in the answers to the following
questions:-Nos. 44,290, 44,316, 44,318, 44,319, 44,337, 44,345,
44,346, 44,351, 44,353, 44,366, 44,368, 44,369, 44,370, 44,372,
44,374, 44,384, 44,385, 44,386, 44,389, 44,392, 44,411. The
statements in Mr. Smith's evidence which I more particularly deny
are contained in the answers to the following questions:-Nos.
44,160, 44,195, 44,222, 44,225, 44,226, 44,241, 44,244, 44,245,
44,246, 44,247, 44,248, 44,252.
13,821. Is there anything else you wish to say?-No.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOSEPH LEASK, examined.
13,822. I believe you are the largest employer in the Faroe trade,
and also one of the largest fish-curers in the island?-I am one of
the largest: I don't know that I am the largest.
13,823. The previous witness, Mr. William Robertson, has been
for a long time in your employment?-Yes.
13,824. He came forward to be examined, I understand, at your
suggestion, in order that you, being advanced in years, might not
require to do so?-Yes; and he has been more in the habit of
settling with the men than I have been myself.
13,825. Have you heard the greater part of his evidence?-I have.
13,826. Do you know it to be correct?-I do.
13,827. You concur in it generally?-Yes. There is only one point
on which I would make a remark. With regard to some fishermen
getting higher prices than others from small curers, I know there
were one or two parties who got more last year, the reason being
that there are frequently parties in Scotland who get orders for fish
for Australia, and these parties give a higher price than ordinary in
order to get good fish, and they are shipped earlier in the season
than the bulk of the fish. Last year, also, one or two curers shipped
to parties in London at a higher price, and consequently were able
to give a higher price to their fishermen; but that was only an
exception.
13,828. That would not explain the fact of certain curers paying a
higher price every year?-No.
13,829. Is there anything else you wish to state?-No.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE SIMPSON, examined.
13,830. Are you a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I do not wish to
give any statement before you at all, [Page 346] because the
proprietor may not look well upon me, and perhaps may raise my
rent or warn me. My name has been put in to you privately
without my knowledge. I did not give it in myself.
13,831. Every one knows that you do not come here of your own
free will, but that you have been summoned to come just as you
would be summoned as a witness in a court of law. Now that you
are here, you are bound to answer the questions which are put to
you, and to speak the truth?-I will do so as far as I can, and as far
as my memory will enable me.
13,832. Then you are a tenant on the estate of Lunna?-I am.
13,833. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman of Lunna?-I
believe I am, so far as I can understand.
13,834. You have no liberty to sell your fish to anybody else?-
No.
13,835. Was there a meeting held at Lunna about eight or ten years
ago, at which Mr. Bell and Mr. Robertson were present and told
the tenants that they were expected to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I
believe there was.
13,836. Were you there?-I don't remember.
13,837. But you knew about it?-I heard that Mr. Bell had
delivered the fishing over to Mr. Robertson.
13,838. Was that the reason why you did not want to come forward
to-day?-Yes.
13,839. You knew you were bound to fish, and you did not want to
say anything to the contrary?-Yes, in case it might affect me in
any way with them.
13,840. Would you prefer to have your liberty?-Of course; but
my days are done now. I have been bound to serve the estate since
I was eleven years of age, and now I am sixty. I was two years at
the beach when I was a boy; and I went to the ling fishing when I
was thirteen.
13,841. Has there been any time since then when you could
have sold your fish to anybody else than the landlord or his
tacksman?-I could have sold some of them to small fish-curers
or yaggers if I had pleased; but I did not attempt to do so, because
I thought I was bound to fish for them.
13,842. Are there small fish-curers or yaggers who buy fish on the
sly in the summer?-Yes.
13,843. But in the winter you can sell your fish to any person you
please?-I don't think we can do that either. None of the tenants
can sell their fish in winter unless they do it privately.
13,844. Do they all sell their winter and spring fish to Mr.
Robertson at present?-Yes.
13,845. Have they always sold them to the proprietor or his
tacksman?-Yes, except those who sell them privately.
13,846. Are there many yaggers about Lunna?-Not many.
13,847. Do they come round in the course of the season and
attempt to buy fish from you?-There is one or two of them
in Skerries. Mr. Adie is there.
13,848. But he is not a yagger?-No> John Hughson is also there.
Thomas Hughson was there for a while.
13,849. Who does Hughson act for?-John Hughson has only one
boat; but I believe he would buy fish from any one if he could get
them.
13,850. Where does Hughson live?-John Hughson lives at
Coppister, in the south-west part of Yell; and he has a man in
Skerries who cures some fish for him. I think they are in
partnership in some way.
13,851. What is the name of the man in Skerries?-I cannot say.
13,852. Have you seen men selling their fish to Hughson's factor
in Skerries?-No.
13,853. But you know that he is ready to buy them-I hear that.
13,854. Do you think that a man selling his fish to these men, or to
any other yagger, would lose his farm?-I don't know.
13,855. But you don't sell to these people yourself, for fear of
losing your farm?-I wish to serve the man that I am bound to,
and to sell all my fish to him, so far as I can.
13,856. Are you bound to fish for him by your own free will?-I
believe it is the landlord who has bound me, but I cannot say.
13,857. Can the landlord bind you unless you agree yourself to be
bound?-I am his tenant, and I must submit to his terms.
13,858. Could you not get another holding if you were not
satisfied?-The holdings are very difficult to get, because a
large part of Shetland has been laid out in sheep farms, and
tenants have no opportunity of getting places.
13,859. Do you know John Johnston and Arthur Anderson, who
were once in Lunna, and who went over to Burravoe some years
ago?-Yes.
13,860. Do you know why they left?-I cannot say, unless it was
because they were not satisfied in some way or other, and looked
out for better places.
13,861. Did they not leave because they did not want to be bound
to fish?-I cannot say.
13,862. Where do you get your supplies?-I purchase them in
Lerwick, or wherever I can get them cheapest, except when I run
out, and then I take them from the shop at Vidlin.
13,863. Do you buy much in Lerwick?-Sometimes I buy a good
quantity; but when my stock runs out, I go to the merchant who is
nearest to me for any small thing I want.
13,864. Then you don't get much of your supplies at Mr.
Robertson's shop at Vidlin?-I can get any supplies there that I
ask for, but I wish to go where I can purchase them cheapest.
13,865. Can you purchase them cheaper in Lerwick than at
Vidlin?-Yes; but of course we must allow for freight.
13,866. But, allowing for freight, do you think you are cheaper, on
the whole, by buying in Lerwick rather than in Vidlin?-Yes.
13,867. What kind of goods do you get at Vidlin?-Meal or tea, or
anything I want.
13,868. Do you get most of them there?-No; I only get a part.
13,869. Does it depend upon whether you have a balance in your
favour, or cash in your hands, that you go to Vidlin?-I sometimes
go for credit and sometimes for cash.
13,870. Do you get your goods at the same price there, whether
you get them on account or pay cash?-I believe I do.
13,871. Is that [showing] your pass-book with Mr. Robertson at
Vidlin?-Yes. The account is kept with Mr. Robert Sutherland,
the shopkeeper there. I also produce an old account for 1864.
13,872. Do you always keep a pass-book?-No; only at times. I
got that account just after the settlement. I thought it rather too
heavy, and I wished a copy of it; but I cannot say whether it is
accurate or not.
13,873. Did you get a discount when you complained about the
account being too high?-I don't remember; but I have sometimes
got a small discount.
13,874. Is the settlement at Vidlin generally in December?-It is
generally after Martinmas, sometimes sooner and sometimes later.
13,875. We need not go back so far as 1864. Have you ever got an
account like that since?-No; I think that was the heaviest account
I ever had.
13,876. You never disputed the rates you were charged since
then?-No, I never disputed them.
13,877. Do you always get your account read over to you at
settlement?-Yes; Mr. Robertson sometimes does it.
13,878. Do you settle with Mr. Robertson himself?-Yes.
13,879. Does he always read over your account?-Sometimes he
reads it over, and at other times he allows me to get it read over by
Mr. Sutherland.
13,880. Is there a separate account kept for any of your family?-
No.
13,881. I see from your pass-book that in 1870 you got two
advances of cash in April and June?-Yes.
13,882. Do you get cash advanced to you when you ask it?-Yes.
[Page 347]
13,883. Had you a balance to get at the settlement for 1870?-I
think I had.
13,884. I see that on September 9th, 1870, you were charged
quarter boll best oatmeal, 5s. 8d.; September 26th, quarter boll, 5s.
6d.; one peck, 1s. 4d. Were you buying meal in Lerwick at that
time?-No; that was just about the time when I was getting in my
crop.
13,885. Did you buy any meal in Lerwick last summer or
autumn?-I bought some in April before I began to the fishing.
I paid £2 to Mr. John Tait for sack of Orkney oatmeal.
13,886. The book you have produced also contains your fish
account?-It contains a copy of it, which was made by my son on
Thursday night, from an old pass-book which I used in settling
with Mr. Robertson.
13,887. In 1870 you got 7s. 3d. for your ling: did all the fishermen
in Lunnasting get the same?-Yes.
13,888.,Was that the current price for the year?-Yes, but I
believe some got more.
13,889. Did you hear that the people about Sandwick had got 8s.
3d. for ling that year?-Yes.
13,890. Was that from Smith and Tulloch, the curers there?-I
don't know the men's names, but I believe it was.
13,891. Do you think it would have been possible to pay you as
high as that, and to allow the fish-curer a decent profit?-I could
not know unless I had been dealing in the fish myself, but I don't
think it would have been possible.
13,892. The current price this year was 8s. for ling, 6s. 6d. for tusk
and cod, and 4s. for saith?-Yes.
13,893. Do you think there was a higher price paid anywhere else
this year?-I cannot say.
13,894. If you had got the price that was paid in 1870 at Sandwick,
would you have had a larger sum to receive for your fishing?-
Yes; we would have received about £13 more for the crew on the
summer and harvest fishing.
13,895. Do you fish much in harvest?-No; we sometimes fish
two weeks after old Lammas Day.
13,896. Is that put into a separate account from the summer
fishing?-Yes, but it is all paid at the same time, because it has
been earned by the same crew.
13,897. Do you sometimes fish in small boats in winter?-I have
done that on former occasions, but not now. I have dropped the
winter fishing.
13,898. Did you sometimes take large quantities of fish in
winter?-Sometimes the fishing then was not very good. In
some years we might make a few pounds by it.
13,899. Did you always sell your winter fish to the tacksman at
Vidlin?-Sometimes; but I cannot say that we did so always.
13,900. Did you consider yourself bound to sell them to him?-I
believed I was bound.
13,901. But you were not so strict in doing it in winter as you were
with regard to the summer fishing?-No.
13,902. What led you to think that you were bound to sell your
winter fish to him as well as your summer fish?-I don't know. I
only knew that the tacksman wished to have them; but we did not
sell them all to him.
13,903. Are you at perfect liberty to go to Lerwick for your goods
if you choose?-Yes.
13,904. Does Sutherland or any one else ask you at settlement if
you want any goods?-No; they just give me whatever goods I ask.
13,905. But do they ask you if you want anything when you are
settling?-At times they may, but not always.
13,906. Do you settle in the shop at Vidlin?-We settle in the
office behind the shop.
13,907. Do you go past the counter into the office?-Yes.
13,908. After you have had your account read over to you, and the
amount of your fish stated, are you ever asked whether you want
any more goods?-No; not unless I please to take some.
13,909. But are you ever asked if you want them?-I cannot say
that I am. If I buy anything myself, then they may ask me if I want
anything more.
13,910. Do they not ask you unless you are buying something at
any rate?-No.
13,911. Does not Mr. Sutherland sometimes ask you if you want
goods before you go in to settle?-No.
13,912. If you take goods at that time, are they put into your
account for the past year, or do they go into your account for the
next year?-They are entered any way I choose. Perhaps they
may be marked down to account, or I may pay for them in cash if
it is any small thing. I don't wish to run a heavy account.
13,913. Do you pay in cash for the articles you get in Lerwick, or
have you an account with Mr. Tait?-There are some merchants
who know me who would give me credit for perhaps twelve
months or so, but sometimes I pay cash down.
13,914. I suppose they know that you have got something in the
bank?-It is not much. Mr. Robertson is my banker.
13,915. Then you sometimes leave your balance in his hands at the
end of the year, and get interest on it?-Yes.
13,916. Why do you not deal more with him for your supplies
when he is your banker?-I deal with him in Lerwick, but I deal as
little as possible at Vidlin, unless when I run out.
13,917. Do you get goods from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?-Yes, I
get what I want.
13,918. Have you an account with him here as well as an account
in the shop at Vidlin?-Yes.
13,919. Do you get any meal from him in Lerwick?-Yes, and tea
and sugar.
13,920. Do you get them cheaper from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick
than at Vidlin?-Yes.
13,921. On the opposite side of your Lerwick account is there
entered any money or interest that is due to you?-Yes; Mr.
Robertson enters that in his book.
13,922. Do you know whether John Hughson buys a large quantity
of fish in the course of a year?-I cannot say.
13,923. Why do the men prefer to sell to him?-They do it of their
own free will.
13,924. Do they get a larger price from him?-Perhaps they may,
but they only sell to him privately.
13,925. Did any man ever tell you that he had got a larger price
from Hughson?-I don't remember.
13,926. Would he be paying money at the time for the fish which
were sold to him?-Perhaps he might, or in any trifle of goods
which were needed at the time. There are some things which Mr.
Robertson may be out of in Skerries, and we have to go to another
merchant for them. For instance, if we wanted a refreshment of
spirits, or anything like that, we have to go to Mr. Adie for it.
13,927. Does Hughson's man keep spirits too?-I don't know.
Perhaps he may have a little for supplying his own men, but I don't
know anything about that.
13,928. Has Mr. Adie got a licence?-Yes.
13,929. When fish are bought by Mr. Adie's man or by Hughson's
man, are they paid for at the time, or is there an account kept of
them?-I cannot say; perhaps the men may run a small account,
and settle it up afterwards. I have had to go to Mr. Adie for many
a thing, and I have run an account with him for them.
13,930. Do you not sell fish to him?-No.
13,931. You merely run an account with him for anything you
want?-Yes.
13,932. Has Mr. Robertson not a shopkeeper at Skerries in the
summer time as well as Mr. Adie?-He has a small supply of
goods there, such as lines, and tea and sugar; but that is all.
Sometimes I required something else and went to Mr. Adie for it,
and sometimes I bought my stores at Lerwick.
[Page 348]
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, LAURENCE ROBERTSON, examined.
13,933. Are you a fisherman at Skelberry, in Lunnasting?-I am.
13,934. Are you bound to fish for the tacksman, Mr. Robertson?-
Yes.
13,935. How do you know that you are bound?-Because I
understand we are bound by Mr. Bell to fish for him.
13,936. Who told you that?-When Mr. Bell came in to rule over
us at first, the agreement was that the tenants were to give the offer
of all their produce to him, and to no other man.
13,937. Did Mr. Bell tell you that?-Yes.
13,938. Was that about ten or twelve years ago?-It is longer ago
than that.
13,939. Was it when Mr. Bell came to the estate first?-Yes.
13,940. Did he buy your fish at that time?-Yes.
13,941. Was there a meeting at which Mr. Bell told you that?-
Yes; it took place in the house of Lunna.
13,942. How were you informed that Mr. Robertson became the
tacksman?-We were informed that he was the tacksman, and we
knew it.
13,943. Was there a meeting at that time too?-I was aware of
none.
13,944. You only heard that Mr. Robertson became tacksman, and
you don't remember who told you?-No.
13,945. Have you always fished for him since, and got the current
price?-Yes.
13,946. Do you get your provisions at the shop at Vidlin?-Yes;
and sometimes I get them from Mr. Robertson's shop in Lerwick,
if I ask them there.
13,947. Do you keep an account at Lerwick also?-Yes, a small
account.
13,948. Is it separate from the Vidlin account?-They are all
brought together and settled for at the same time.
13,949. Do you get your goods cheaper when you come to
Lerwick for them, than when you get them at Vidlin?-I cannot
say, because I never had money to purchase them with.
13,950. You have always had to run an account?-Yes.
13,951. Had you a balance to get in cash at the end of last year?-
No; I was in debt.
13,952. Have you been so for many years?-Yes.
13,953. Have you sometimes bought your goods at other shops?-
Not often, because I did not have money to buy them with there.
13,954. When you did buy them at other shops, where did you get
the money?-In the first part of the time I had a little; but I have
not bought anything at other shops lately.
13,955. Do you not sometimes sell your winter fish for a little
money in hand?-No.
13,956. Do you sometimes get an advance from Mr. Robertson?-
Yes. If I ask for a little money I get it.
13,957. Have you got a pass-book?-Yes. I have got an account of
my last year's dealings here. [Produces it.]
13,958. Have you always had a pass-book?-No.
13,959. Is this the first one you had?-Yes.
13,960. You pay your rent to Mr. Robertson, and it is put into your
account?-Yes.
13,961. You begin on December 12, 1870, with a balance against
you of £22, 18s. 8d., and that was increased at December last to
£39, 14s. 2d., including the rent?-Yes.
13,962. You were credited at settlement with a payment of cash in
August of £2, and with the amount of your fishing, £18, 12s. 11d.,
reducing the balance to £19, 1s. 3d.?-Yes.
13,963. Where did the cash you paid in August come from?-It
came from the sale of an ox.
13,964. Who did you sell it to?-I cannot exactly say, because it
was my wife who sold it. I was at Skerries at the time.
13,965. Have you got any supplies since November from the
Vidlin shop?-Yes.
13,966. Are the supplies of the men sometimes stopped when they
get too deep in debt?-Yes.
13,967. Are they then put upon a certain allowance?-Yes.
13,968. Is that a common thing about Vidlin?-I cannot say for
any one but myself. I have been put upon an allowance; but I
cannot say how much it was, because it was my family who always
got it.
13,969. I see that in your book on June 14, 21, and 28, there are
entries on each of these dates of 24 lbs. oatmeal, and 3s. 81/2d. for
flour; was that your allowance?-I believe so.
13,970. There are similar entries on July 5 and 12, and there is no
other entry till 26th July, when you got double the quantity, but it
is entered in a different form?-Yes.
13,971. Did you understand that you were on an allowance all last
summer?-Yes.
13,972. Was that done with the view of reducing the amount of
your debt?-Certainly.
13,973. And it is considerably reduced now?-Yes.
13,974. Do you think you will get it all wiped off?-I don't know.
It depends on the fishing and the crop.
13,975. Are there many men are in the same position as
yourself?-That is a secret to me. I don't know how the men's
accounts stand with Mr. Robertson.
13,976. Why did you get so far into debt?-I and my family had
a fever in the middle of summer about six years ago, and I got
behind then. My earnings were all stopped by the fever.
13,977. Do you think that if you had ready money you would be
able to purchase your supplies cheaper than you can get them at
the Vidlin shop?-I don't know. Perhaps if I was trying, I might
be able to purchase them a little better. There are freights and
other things that must make them dearer at Vidlin than elsewhere.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SIMPSON, examined.
13,978. Are you a fisherman at Valour, in Lunnasting?-I am.
13,979. Are you a relation of Laurence Simpson, who has been
already examined?-I am his brother.
13,980. Have you heard his evidence?-Yes, I heard good deal of
it; but his case is different from mine, because he has had ready
money with which to purchase things as he best could, and I have
not had it. I have been obliged to take my goods from the people I
was fishing to, because I did not have money with which to buy
them at any other place.
13,981. Do you think he got his things rather cheaper than you in
consequence of having ready money?-I think so.
13,982. Were you obliged to deal at the shop at Vidlin?-I was,
because I was in debt.
13,983. Were you bound to fish for Mr. Robertson?-I was.
13,984. Do you think you could have got a better price for your
fish if you had been free?-Perhaps we might; but we could not
ask for it, because we were bound.
13,985. If you were free, would you attempt to cure your own fish,
or to sell them to another curer?-I might.
13,986. Do you think you would make anything by curing your
own fish?-I think I would.
13,987. Would you be able to give some idle time to it when you
could not go to sea?-If we were curing our own fish, two or three
boats would join together, and employ a man and a boy for the
purpose, and then the men would have all their time to go to sea.
13,988. Would you have a factor of your own?-Yes, if we had
our freedom.
[Page 349]
13,989. Have you often thought about that?-We would have
thought about it if we had had our freedom; but we were bound,
and we could not do it.
13,990. Have you got your pass-book?-I have had no pass-book
for some time. There was one year when I had a pass-hook for
some time, but it was not made up regularly, and it was given up.
Then the whole account was put into the ledger, and Mr.
Sutherland went over it with me at settlement; but the last year Mr.
Sutherland was busy, and we did not get it done. This year,
however, Mr. Robertson has given me a copy of the account for
the two years' transactions. I only got it to-day before I came
down here, but I cannot understand it very well. [Produces two
passbooks.]
13,991. Did you get the copy of your account after you got the
summons to come here?-No. The girl came with it just about the
same time that the summons came. She had been over at the shop,
and she brought the summons with her.
13,992. Did you ask Mr. Robertson at settlement for a copy of your
account?-I asked Mr. Sutherland to read over my account, and
when I went to hear him read it he said he would give me a copy,
and he has put it down in a pass-book.
13,993. I see here an entry on 17th current, 'To paid freight on b.
meal, 5d.' What does that mean?-It was a boll of meal I got from
Lerwick, and very likely Mr. Sutherland has paid the freight for
me.
13,994. Did you get that meal from Mr. Robertson in Lerwick?-
No, I got it from William Smith.
13,995. The balance against you in December 1869 was £30, 5s.
3d., and it was reduced at last settlement to £21, 17s. 111/2d.?-
Yes, I have brought it down to that by my two years' earnings.
13,996. How did you happen to have such a large debt?-I had a
fever in the same year that Laurence Robertson was ill, and I
earned no more that year, although the fishing then was a good
one. My illness brought me into debt that season, and I have never
been able to clear it off.
13,997. I see in your account on 7th September last, 'By balance
to kelp, per son Robert, 6s. 4d.' How does that go into your
account?-The boy had some things out of the shop, and that has
likely been to pay for them.
13,998. Had he an account of his own for kelp?-He had no
account, because he is not old enough yet but he was working with
his mother and sisters at the kelp, and he got some clothes.
13,999. Had his mother and sisters some out-takes from the shop
while they were working at the kelp?-Yes.
14,000. And the 6s. 4d. would be what was due on the kelp above
the amount of these out-takes?-It was what they allowed the boy
for his share of the kelp.
14,001. Had your wife and your daughters accounts of their own
separate from yours?-Yes.
14,002. Do the other members of your family always have
accounts of their own, independent of your account?-They
have had accounts for kelp, and perhaps for some other trifles
besides.
14,003. Do they take in hosiery at the Vidlin shop?-Very little.
14,004. Do they take any of it from the members of your
family?-I don't know if they have much to give them, but if
they wanted a little at a time they might have taken some of it
to them.
14,005. I see on September 22, 'By 74 lbs. wool at 111/2d.' What
was that?-It was wool that I gave into the shop to help to pay off
my account.
14,006. Was that all the wool off your sheep for the year?-It was
not the whole of it. I had a little more than that. There had been
some of it used for my own family. The sheep were kept in a park
which Mr. Bell had taken in. We had it as a free pasture before,
but he took the pasture from us, and rouped the park for £15, to
keep 200 head of sheep. That was the reason why we were bound
to give our produce to Mr. Robertson. I considered it right in me
to give him the wool, in order to pay for the rent of the park; but
previously we had that pasture at our own freedom.
14,007. Were you bound to sell the wool and the sheep in that
pasture to Mr. Robertson?-Mr. Robertson was the cautioner to
Mr. Bell for the rent of it, the same as he was for the rent of our
toon.
14,008. Was he the tacksman?-Yes.
14,009. And Mr. Robertson let you the park?-No. Mr. Bell let us
the park. It was his own property, but Mr. Robertson was
cautioner for the rent.
14,010. Was the park at Lunna House?-No. It was a park about a
mile to the south of Lunna. We were allowed by Mr. Bell to put
200 head into it, and we did so; but there came a dearth, and it
could hardly bear that number.
14,011. Have you got the park still?-Yes, I and my brother and
Mr. Anderson. There was another man interested in it at first,
Hunter Sinclair, but he gave up his share, and now the three of us
have it.
14,012. Have you one-third share of the sheep which are put upon
it?-Yes.
14,013. And this was the wool which had been produced from
these sheep?-Yes; and because Mr. Robertson had become bound
for the rent of the park, we thought we ought to give him the wool
in return.
14,014. Was 111/2d. the current price for wool last autumn?-I
cannot say. That was what we got for it from Mr. Sutherland.
14,015. Did anybody else offer to buy it from you?-We did not
offer it to anybody else, because we thought he had a better right
to it, as he was paying the rent. There were several people asking
me for it, but I would not sell it to them.
14,016. How much did they offer you for the wool?-We never
came to any particular agreement about the price, because I would
not consent to sell it to them at all.
14,017. Did they not say anything about what they would give
you?-They spoke of 1s.; but I thought it better to sell it for 111/2d.
wholesale than to sell it to them for 1s., even although I had had
power to do it. Besides, I thought Mr. Robertson had the best right
to it.
14,018. Had Mr. Robertson told you that he expected to get your
wool?-I cannot say that he had.
14,019. Had Mr. Sutherland told you that?-If I could have paid
my debt he would not have asked it.
14,020. But did Mr. Sutherland tell you that he expected to get
your wool?-Sometimes he would ask me if I would give him the
wool, and that I would be better to give it to him than to sell it to
another.
14,021. Even at a halfpenny less?-Yes.
14,022. How do you sell your eggs?-We sell them mostly to Mr.
Sutherland, and get small stores for them at the time, such as tea or
sugar, or anything we want. They do not go into the account.
14,023. The eggs are never paid for in cash?-No; but I have no
doubt we would get cash for them if we asked it.
14,024. But you always choose to take tea or sugar?-Yes, just the
things we are needing.
14,025. Is that the way in which all the people in your
neighbourhood do with their eggs?-I cannot say it is the way
with the whole of them. Perhaps some of them may take them to
other places for anything they want; but I believe most of the
people dispose of them in that way to Mr. Sutherland.
14,026. Do you know Robert Murray at Swinister-Yes.
14,027. He is a merchant there, and keeps a shop?-Yes.
14,028. Does he sometimes buy fish?-He buys small fish, like
what are called hand-line fish, or fish caught with lines near the
shore; but I cannot say whether he has the summer time or not. He
may have, for anything I know.
14,029. Does he sometimes engage people to fish for him in the
winter or spring or summer?-I don't know.
14,030. Do you know whether he once engaged a [Page 350] man
named Peter Williamson?-I heard so. I heard that Williamson
was bargained to fish to Robert Murray, and that Mr Robertson
would not allow him to do so. I never asked Mr Robertson about
that.
14,031. Are you a relation of Mr Robertson?-I am his cousin.
14,032. Does Murray sometimes buy fish in the same way as the
yaggers do?-He buys fish in his own shop; but I don't know that
he goes to the Skerrries, or anywhere at a distance to buy fish.
14,033. Do the men sometimes go to him when they want a little
ready money or supplies that cannot be got at Vidlin?-There are
none of the fishermen at Lunnasting who go to him, so far as I am
aware.
14,034. Is his place a long way from where you live?-Yes; it
takes me a good day when I go there by sea, and it is a long way by
land; but I never sold a tail of fish to him in my life.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, MARGARET JAMIESON, examined
14,035. Do you live in Quarff?-Yes.
14,036. Are you sometimes employed in knitting?-Yes, in
knitting and dressing. I have also a little farm which I work,
but I generally work at the knitting and dressing when I can get
that kind of work to do. The farm is my brother's but he is very
ill.
14,037. Do you knit with your own wool, or is it given out to you
by the merchants?-I always knit with wool which I purchase for
myself.
14,038. What kind of things do you knit?-Shawls, veils, haps,
plaids, and other things.
14,039. Are you always paid for these in goods?-I sold a plaid to
Mr Sinclair in the spring when I was unwell, and did not get it
settled for until the summer. The price of the article was 18s., and
I asked a halfpenny from him, and he refused to give it to me.
14,040. Did he not give you the halfpenny?-He gave it to me in
the end, because I had to post a letter, and I got the halfpenny from
him for that purpose.
14,041. Was the postage of that letter only a halfpenny?-No, but I
had another halfpenny of my own, and I required the halfpenny
from him to buy a stamp with. On Wednesday last I sold a plaid to
him for 20s. and asked 2s. in cash at the end of the settlement, but
they refused to give it to me. I then asked 1s. 6d., and they said if I
got that they would mark it as 1s. 9d. against me.
14,042. Who said that?-It was one of the serving-men in Mr
Sinclair's shop; I don't know his name. Then I asked 1s., and he
said it would be 1s. 3d. against me; but I refused to take it on that
footing. I then asked for 9d. which he consented to give me,
saying he did not have it in the shop, but that he would borrow it
from one of the clerks or serving-men.
14,043. Did he say he did not have 9d. in the shop?-Yes. I got
6d. and left 3d. due, which I could not get unless I took calico.
14,044. You did not put him to the trouble of borrowing the 9d.?-
He borrowed 4d. from one of the persons there, and he found 2d.
in the counter.
14,045. Do you think there was no money in the till at that time?-
I do not know anything about it except what he told me. I consider
from my own experience, and from what I hear from others, that
we are very much like the Hebrews of Egypt,-very much
burdened down with many things, and not able to bear our
burdens.
14,046. When you took the shawl in the other day, which you sold
for a pound, did you bargain that you were to get payment for it in
goods?-There was no bargain made about it.
14,047. When you sold the shawl in the previous spring, was it
marked down in an account, or did you get a line for it?-I got a
line for it.
14,048. Did you send in your shawl?-No; I went in and sold it
and asked a line, which I got.
14,049. Did you not want the goods at the time?-I got some
goods and the balance in a line.
14,050. But you did not want to take the whole in goods?-No, I
refused to do that. I did not want them until afterwards.
14,051. Does it often happen that you don't want goods when you
sell your shawls, and that you would rather have money?-We
would rather have money, because there are many things that we
require it for. There are many taxes we have to pay, and there are
many things we can only buy with money.
14,052. Would you take a lower price for your hosiery if you could
get cash instead of goods?-I don't know, because goods will help
us through a part of the year as well as if we got a little money. I
consider our hosiery is worth what we sell it at, even although it
was paid in cash.
14,053. Where do you get your wool?-I get it from any person
who has wool, and who will exchange it for a little tea or hosiery,
or a bit of calico or yellow cotton.
14,054. Do you spin it yourself?-Always. I am not able to get it
spun for me, because that has to be paid for in money, and I cannot
get the money.
14,055. Are you not able to pay for worsted?-No, because it has
to be paid for in money; and I am not able to put the wool to the
spinner, because that would require money too.
14,056. Do you sometimes have to pay money for wool?-If we
can get a day's work or anything of that kind to do, we may get a
little wool in exchange for it, but it is not very often we can get
that.
14,057. Have the people who sell wool generally a fixed price for
it?-Yes, according to the fineness or coarseness of it.
14,058. What do you pay for the finer wool?-It may be about 1s.
6d., according to the quality of it. I think the cheapest we can get
is 1s.
14,059. But you get it by barter; do you give goods for it at the
same price as you paid for them?-Generally we give a parcel
of goods, and they will give us so much wool as they think it is
worth. It is never priced at all; we merely give a small parcel of
tea in exchange for so much.
14,060. Do you sometimes buy wool at the shops in Lerwick?-
No, I cannot say that I ever bought any there.
14,061. Have you any sheep of your own?-Very few. We
sometimes get wool from them, but not much.
14,062. Have you sold wool from them?-Never.
14,063. Can you not get as much wool off your own sheep as
serves you for your own work?-No, we don't have so many of
them as that.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ISABELLA SINCLAIR, recalled.
14,064. Do you wish to say anything about the evidence which
Margaret Jamieson has just given?-Yes. I wish to explain that
those in the shop have no power to give money except by referring
to my father. Then with regard to the want of money in the shop,
it may have happened that my father had taken the money with
him to the bank, as very often happens. Frequently when there is
some small change in the drawer, it is given away upon lines or
something of that kind. I suppose that is the explanation of what
the witness has said.
14,065. But I suppose the practice is that you don't give money at
all unless you can help it?-If the bargain is made for money, then
we give money; but I don't see that we have any right to give
money when the bargain is made for goods, any more than if the
bargain had been made for goods we could compel them to take
money for it. Sometimes my father is [Page 351] very unwilling
to take hosiery, and would rather not buy it, either for goods or
money. That is frequently the case when he is not requiring the
article, or when the article is of inferior value.
14,066. Was what the witness said correct about 1s. 6d. being
offered to her in money for 1s. 9d. and 1s. for 1s. 3d.?-It depends
on circumstances. In some cases if an article was sold at 1s. for
goods, the person might get 9d. or 10d. for it in money, according
as the article was worth it. If it was an article which we had a
special order for, we would perhaps give 10d., because we would
soon get the money back again; but if it was an article that was
likely to lie for some time, we would only give 9d. for it.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, senior, examined.
14,067. You are a merchant in Lerwick, and tacksman of the estate
of Lunna?-I am.
14,068. Have you a fish-curing establishment at Vidlin?-It is at
Skerries. We take a few fish at Vidlin, but there is not much done
there.
14,069. But you have a store at Vidlin?-Yes.
14,070. Have you also a curing establishment in Lerwick?-We do
very little with it. We sometimes take a few dried fish here.
14,071. You were present to-day and heard the evidence of some
men from Lunnasting parish?-Yes.
14,072. Do you wish to make any observation or any statement
with regard to that evidence?-I think there are no particular
observations I can make, except with regard to the difference
between the charges for goods in Lerwick and in the country.
We always have some additional expense upon the goods which
are sent to the country, but we make the difference as small as we
possibly can.
14,073. What should you say was the difference between the
prices charged at Vidlin and those which you would charge in
Lerwick?-Perhaps from 21/2 to 5 per cent.; but the fact is, that
for some things the prices are the same. For instance, cotton
goods are the same price.
14,074. Can you land them at Vidlin at very nearly the same price,
as at Lerwick?-Yes. The amount of freight would be very small,
and we make a point to sell them at the same rates. I put on the
prices myself, and I know that we sell these articles at the same
price as here.
14,075. I understand the men on the Lunna estate are under
obligation by the tenure on which they hold their land to fish
for you?-Yes, if they fish at Skerries. Mr. Bell has booths and
beaches there; and seventeen years ago he applied to me about
them. I was very reluctant to go into the matter at all, but he asked
me to assist him, and I agreed to do it, and we have been dealing in
that way ever since.
14,076. Has Mr. Bell an interest in that yet, except that he receives
his rent from you?-No. He has no interest in it whatever, except
that by his arrangement with me he is secure in getting his rent.
14,077. Have you any fishermen fishing for you who are tenants
upon other estates than that of Lunna?-Not at that place. I have
had several people in Nesting, on Mr. Bruce of Simbister's ground.
They have fished for me perhaps for thirty years; but it is very little
they do, and they generally give their fish dry.
14,078. Are these winter or summer fish?-Both winter and
summer.
14,079. What do you pay for a fisherman's summer fish of his own
curing?-Their own fish are generally never so well cured as when
cured by the merchants themselves. This year I paid the men £21
for their own cure, and I don't think I could get above that for
them. For my own cure the current price was per ton.
14,080. What were the circumstances connected with the case of
Peter Williamson who had come under an engagement to Robert
Murray at Swinister last season?-I don't know what engagement
he came under to Murray, but Williamson denied it to me. All I
can say about it is that he is a tenant of Mr. Bell's, and that when
he settled his account at Vidlin with me it was understood he was
to fish again; but one of his partners had engaged to go with
another boat of mine, and he (Williamson) did not know very well
whether he would manage to get a boat for the fishing or not. I
suppose he had made some kind of statement to Robert Murray
about that; but at that time Williamson was really very much
indebted to me. I had kept him and his family alive with meal for
year after year, and he was very far behind; and it would scarcely
have done to have allowed him to go anywhere he liked. I got a
crew for him, and then he was quite willing to go and fish for me.
I think he ought to have asked me first before he made any
promise to any other body, because he knew that it was the rule on
the estate to fish for me if they fished from Skerries at all. There
are many of the Lunna tenants who never fish for me, but who fish
for Mr. Adie or go to Faroe and Greenland, and I never stop them
from doing that at all.
14,081. It is not part of the understanding that any men who go to
Faroe or Greenland should go in your boats?-No.
14,082. If a man goes to Faroe or Greenland, he is free to go for
whoever he likes?-Yes.
14,083. Is he free if he stays at home?-If he goes to Skerries, as
there is an establishment there belonging to the estate, and which
must be kept up, it is understood that any man going there must
fish for me; but Mr. Adie has a good many of Mr. Bell's tenants
fishing for him, and when people go to Feideland I never interfere
with them.
14,084. Are there many of them who go so far as Feideland?-
Yes, a good many. The Delting tenants do that.
14,085. I understand you had a considerably smaller number of
men employed last year than you had some years ago?-Yes; they
had succeeded very well for two or three years previously, and
they had received a good deal of supplies, and I did not ask or
force anybody to go to the fishing unless they chose. I told them
that if they could do better otherwise, I should be very glad if
they did so; but I am sorry to say that those tenants who fished
elsewhere, or who went to Greenland, did not seem better off.
14,086. How do you engage your beach boys and curers at
Skerries?-I generally engage them by the week.
14,087. Are they mostly connected with the Lunna estate?-Yes,
generally; but sometimes I engage others.
14,088. Then you don't pay, as they do in other places, a beach fee
by the year?-We settle with them at the year's end. We cannot
very well do otherwise.
14,089. Are they engaged on weekly wages?-Yes.
14,090. That is to say, the wage is counted by the week?-Yes.
14,091. It is not a fee for the season?-No; it used to be, but I
found it better to pay them by the week, and let them know what
they have to get.
14,092. Is that wage fixed at the commencement of the season?-
Generally it is, but sometimes it is not. Sometimes we don't know
what the boys can do, as we have not tried them; and we like to
see what they are fit for before we arrange what they are to be
paid. We generally give them what we consider a fair thing.
14,093. These people, you say, are settled with at the end of the
year, and they have been taking supplies as they require them?-
Yes; they require little meal and other things to live upon.
14,094. Do they get these at Skerries in the course of the
season?-Yes.
14,095. And these supplies are accounted for at settling time?-
Yes.
14,096. Have the people so employed in curing generally a balance
to get, or do they generally exhaust [Page 352] their wages in
supplies?-That depends very much upon the disposition of the
party.
14,097. But what is the fact in the general run of cases?-We
generally have a balance to pay them. The dealings of these beach
people are usually small. They cannot be very large, but they
generally have a balance in their favour, and they get what is due
to
them in cash as soon as we ascertain its amount.
14,098. Do they get a small sum of cash, if they want it, in the
course of the season, for any particular purpose?-Yes; I keep cash
at the station for that particular purpose, so that none of the men
may be disappointed if they want it.
14,099. But I suppose it is a very small proportion which they ask
for in cash?-They cannot expect much. They don't need it.
14,100. They have nothing to do with it at a place like that?-No;
but whenever they want it they get it; and sometimes when they
get
cash, they don't put it to the best purpose. They are near a spirit
shop there.
14,101. Is that Mr. Adie's?-Yes.
14,102. Is his the only spirit shop there?-Yes.
14,103. Do you think people supply themselves more with
liberally with spirits and other luxuries in the fishing season than
they do during the rest of the year?-I think not, generally.
14,104. They are working harder at that time, are they not?-Yes.
14,105. And they would require a larger supply?-Yes; but the
men are not very much addicted to that. A few individuals may
be; but the men, upon the whole, are not extravagant in that way.
14,106. I noticed that a purchase of meal was made by Thomas
Hutchison in Skerries at your shop about January 1868. Can you
tell me what the current price of meal was at that date?-I was
told it was in 1867, and I looked up the prices for that year.
14,107. I have found, however, that it was in 1868. What do you
think the price was at that time?-I would not like to say, because
the price of meal varies so much; but I will look my books, and
mention what it was.
14,108. You were engaged in the herring fishing one time, I
understand?-Yes; and I unfortunately am a little engaged in
it still. It has been a complete failure lately.
14,109. What is the nature of the arrangement with the men in that
fishing?-The men are generally understood to have the nets and
the boats. The boats are their own property. If a crew wants a
boat, which costs from £17 to £18, I have to pay for it; but I wish
them to have the name of owning the boat, and I charge them hire,
although the hires really cannot pay the price. I wish them to call
the boats their own, and I do not debit them with the price, but it is
charged in a separate account to the crew.
14,110. Is that account debited yearly with the hire of the boat?-
Yes.
14,111. How do you arrange about the nets?-They are also
entered in a separate account for the crew.
14,112. How is the payment for the fish arranged?-The men get
one half of the fish for their labour, and the other half goes to the
credit of the boat and nets. It is entered to the credit of the boat
and net account, and the other half of the fish goes to their own
account.
14,113. Is there a fixed hire for the boat and nets?-There is no
fixed hire. We generally charge £1 for the herring fishing, and £2,
10s. for the haaf or summer fishing.
14,114. How long does the herring fishing last?-About six weeks;
but the men rarely go to it at all, because lately there have been no
herrings on the coast.
14,115. Then it is hardly a hire that is paid for the boat and nets,
but you furnish both and get one half of the fish?-Yes.
14,116. There is no account for the boat and nets, except that you
take one half of the fish and the other half is divided among the
men, without any other deduction, unless for the amount of any
account which they may have incurred?-Yes.
14,117. Is the price of the herring fixed at the commencement of
the season?-I never made any arrangement about that with them,
but usually paid the price which Messrs. Hay & Co. paid. But we
have got none to pay for lately at all.
14,118. How long has that fishing been in existence here?-For
four years with me, but there has been a herring fishing existing
here for a long time.
14,119. Are Messrs. Hay the principal parties engaged in it?-Yes.
14,120. Then the herring fishing here is not conducted on the same
principle as at Wick?-It is not.
14,121. No price per cran has been fixed at the beginning of the
season?-I think not.
14,122. Is there any particular reason for that?-I don't know any
reason for it at all.
14,123. I suppose it has been rather assimilated to the other fishing
speculations of Shetland?-I believe so.
14,124. The arrangement you enter into is as nearly as possible the
same as exists in the other branches of the fishing trade here?-
Yes.
14,125. There is a settlement at the end of the year for the summer
fishing?-Yes. The men are settled with for both branches of the
fishing together.
14,126. In a letter which you wrote and sent along with the returns
you have made, you say, 'In the year 1868 I paid about £300 in
cash advances for the people on the herring fishing alone, which
has since then turned out a complete failure. These circumstances
account for the large amount of debt shown to be due in the year
1870.' Does that mean that when the people went to the herring
fishing you had to make considerable advances to them in cash?-
I may explain that these men had been fishing for Mr. Adie, and a
number of them were due him money on account, and I paid all
their advances and cleared them off with Mr. Adie. I took them
into my own hands, and of course these sums had to be debited in
the men's accounts.
14,127. At that time had you gone into the herring fishing more
largely than before?-Yes.
14,128. Had you no men engaged in the herring fishing then who
had been fishing for you in the home fishing before?-No, I had
not been in the herring fishing for twelve years before.
14,129. But had you any man who had been engaged in the home
fishing of the year before for you?-Yes; the men had all been
engaged at the ling fishing for me, but they fished for Mr. Adie in
the herring fishing as soon as the ling fishing was over, and some
of them seemed anxious for a change, and others not.
14,130. For what change?-That I should have the herring fishing
as well as the ling fishing. It was their own request that I should
begin the herring fishing again, and I thought it was as well to do
it.
14,131. Had they had accounts with Mr. Adie, as regards the
herring fishing, separate from what they ran for the time they
were employed in the ling fishing with you?-Yes.
14,132. Did Mr. Adie go out of the herring fishing altogether when
these men left him?-No. He is in it still, but he had not so many
hands employed in after they left him as he had before.
14,133. You thought it a reasonable thing, when you took away his
herring fishers, that you should take their accounts with them?-
Yes; that was suggested by some of the men to me, and I intimated
to Mr. Adie that some of the men wanted it, and that it would be as
well to carry it out.
14,134. Did the men say to you that they had accounts with Mr.
Adie?-I knew that.
14,135. And perhaps they demurred a little, or felt little difficulty
in leaving him in that state of matters?-They did not say much
about that, but I thought it was fair to clear Mr. Adie if I took away
the men who had been engaged to him.
14,136. Have you ever known such an arrangement [Page 353]
being made when a change of employment took place in any other
branch of the fishing business?-No.
14,137. If a man shifted from one employer to another in the home
fishing, has it been usual for the new employer to take over any
debt that the man may have incurred to the previous employer?-I
should suppose that would be reasonable, but I am not aware that it
has been generally the case.
14,138. Have you known any instances where it has occurred?-I
think I remember one or two instances.
14,139. But you don't know of any special arrangement between
merchants to that effect?-No.
14,140. And you have not entered into any such arrangement
yourself?-No.
14,141. Did any of the men object to the debt which they had
incurred to Mr. Adie being transferred to you?-No; I think they
were rather pleased at it, because they were afraid Mr. Adie
would have been hard upon them for it.
14,142. Might he have been harder after they left his service?-
There is no doubt he would, and he would have had a right to be
so.
14,143. Do you purchase kelp on the Lunna estate?-Yes.
14,144. Does your tack include a lease of the kelp shores?-In
point of fact I have no tack, but merely a letter, and just now I am
acting upon a verbal agreement from year to year. I can give it up
whenever I choose, on giving it short intimation.
14,145. Does that arrangement include the kelp shores?-Yes.
14,146. What is the price allowed by you for kelp?-4s. 6d. when
paid in goods.
14,147. Is there a different price when it is paid for in cash?-Mr.
Sutherland manages that matter; but I am pretty sure that he pays
only 4s. in cash, and anybody can get that who chooses.
14,148. But I suppose most of them take it in goods-Many of
them do. It is it very convenient way for them, and the goods are
not charged any higher in consequence, but we consider that the
profit on the goods enables us to give a higher price.
14,149. How many of the women may be employed in that way?-
Perhaps about sixty, taking it as a rough guess.
14,150. All these people, I presume, have accounts open at the
shop at Vidlin, as I have seen to be the case in other parts of
Shetland?-Yes. We would be very glad if the accounts were
less, but really it is impossible to work with the people without
them. It is almost impossible to get the balances brought down,
but we never refuse them cash when they have it to get.
14,151. Do you purchase wool to any extent?-No, I don't do
anything in the hosiery line.
14,152. Do you think it would be possible to carry on the
fish-curing business here profitably without combining it with
the other business in the shop at Vidlin?-I don't see how it
could be done.
14,153. But supposing it could be done,-supposing the people
could get their supplies elsewhere,-would the fish-curer be able
to carry on his business at profit?-All they would do in that case
would merely be to take a commission, as they now do, for selling
the fish. They calculate upon getting that commission at present,
and that is what they would expect under another system; but the
people unfortunately cannot do without these supplies. Some of
the men, however, are well off. For instance, the man Laurence
Simpson, who was examined today, is very well off and can do
without advances. He can buy his meal wherever he chooses.
14,154. Would it be a profitable thing for the fish-curer if he
were content with that commission, without having a profit on
his goods?-Perhaps that might be done, but I don't know.
14,155. Is there any other point you wish to mention?-I have
heard some of the men who have been examined here, saying that
they would like their freedom. I have no objection to any man
having his freedom and being allowed to cure his fish for himself,
but I suspect such a system would destroy the character of the fish
in the country if it were gone into. The fish would be injured by it;
I know that by experience. The cure would not be so good as it is
at present.
14,156. But if the men had their freedom, would they not employ
a factor for themselves or would it not come to this in the end,
that the men would sell their fish to any curer who was most
convenient for them?-Many of them would cure their own fish,
which they do now in some places, but we never can get the
quality of the fish good enough when they are cured in that way.
They cannot be put in among fine fish, because the men do not
dry them so well as they ought to be, and they will not keep for
any length of time.
14,157. Would they not very soon find that out, and either employ
a fish-factor for the curing of their fish upon the co-operative
system, or return virtually to the present system and sell their fish
to any merchant who would take them, with the exception that he
would pay for them in ready money?-I am afraid any change of
that kind would affect the quality of the fish.
14,158. But if it affected the quality of the fish, the men would
soon find that they did not get so good a price for them?-Yes.
14,159. And they would either return to the old system, or to
some one under which the curing of the fish would be equally
good. The men would not be content permanently to take a
lower price?-They might be obliged to take a lower price,
although they did not know it.
14,160. But I have been told today that the Shetland people are a
very intelligent class, and they would surely have intelligence
enough to discover that they were getting a lower price than they
might get for their produce?-Some of them are intelligent, and no
doubt they would discover that.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, examined.
14,161. Are you a clerk in the employment of Mr. Leask?-I am.
14,162. How long have you been in his service?-About nineteen
years.
14,163. Have you been principally concerned with the engagement
and settling with seamen employed in the Greenland whale
fishing?-Principally, of late, since the settlement at the Custom
House was commenced. That was five years ago.
14,164. Were you not employed in that way before?-Yes; not
altogether, but along with others.
14,165. Before that time, the accounts of the men, I understand,
were always settled at Mr. Leask's office?-Always.
14,166. And the men were paid merely the balance in cash?-
They were paid the balance, but they had to get cash during the
currency of their account besides that. They always got advances
of cash in the course of the year if they wanted them.
14,167. The balance that was paid to them at the end in cash
was the settlement for their wages and their first payment of
oil-money?-Yes.
14,168. Was the settlement for the final payment of oil-money
generally made at a later period?-Always at a later period.
14,169. Was there always a settlement before the last payment of
oil-money became due?-Always, except when they happened to
be in debt.
14,170. They might be in debt to a greater amount than anything
that was due to them?-They might, but of course, if a man had
money to get, he was sure to come forward when he required it.
14,171. Were the accounts which were run with the men at that
time larger than you now allow them to incur?-I should say not.
[Page 354]
14,172. Are there some men even now who are indebted at
settlement to the full amount of their wages and oil-money?-
Very few.
14,173. But that does occur?-It may be the case with some of the
young hands.
14,174. Does that happen now as often as formerly?-I daresay it
does. It depends on the success of the voyage; but we are rather
more particular now than we used to be.
14,175. In what way are you more particular now?-We know
better what time the voyage will occupy and we always keep
within the mark as far as possible.
14,176. Is there less security now for getting your money paid at
the proper time than there was formerly?-I cannot say that we
have experienced that.
14,177. Previous to 1867, you said the settlement of the men's
accounts generally took place before the last payment of oil-money
was due?-Yes, always.
14,178. Was that not so only in the greater number of cases?-It
was always the case. The final payment was only a few shillings
in general, and it was usually a considerable time before the
owners advised us what amount of oil the vessel had turned out;
so that if a man had the bulk of his wages to get, he generally got
them a long time before the second payment of oil-money came.
14,179. Was the second payment usually made before the man
engaged for another voyage if he was going?-In some cases; but
if the man lived at a considerable distance from Lerwick, he would
not come in for the few shillings which were due him for his
second payment until he was about to engage again.
14,180. How was that second payment made? Was it in money, or
generally in goods?-If the man had the money coming to him, it
was usually paid in money; but sometimes he may have got a little
advance on his second payment.
14,181. If that was the case it would be in his account?-Yes, a
continuation of his previous account; but we did not care much
about advancing on second payments, because they were so
uncertain. The vessel might not turn out nearly so much as was
expected.
14,182. You are aware that a new system was introduced about
1867 or 1868?-Yes.
14,183. And since that time you have been employed in going up
to the Custom House to settle with the men?-Yes.
14,184. Do you take a quantity of cash up with you and hand it
over to the men in presence of the superintendent?-Yes.
14,185. Have you, since that system began, invariably taken up
your ledgers containing the men's accounts, or any note of the
amount of their accounts, with you?-Of course we have never
taken up the books.
14,186. Did you at any time take any notes or abstracts of the
men's accounts?-I always took a note of the sum which each
man had to get.
14,187. Was that a note of the sum which each man had to get for
wages and oil-money?-No; it was a note of the actual amount
due to the men, because each man had an account of wages
furnished to him previously.
14,188. Had he received that from the captain?-No; the account
of wages was made up by the agent on shore from the captain's
store-book.
14,189. Is that account of wages always made up by the agent and
handed to the men before settlement?-Yes.
14,190. Is it not sometimes taken up with you to the settlement?-
The man always carries it up with him.
14,191. When you go up to the Custom House, are you provided
with any note of the amount of the man's account due to Mr.
Leask?-In the first years, I think we had that occasionally.
14,192. In what form did you take that up?-Just slip.
14,193. Was that a note of all the items in the account?-No
14,194. It was just a note of the total sum due to Mr. Leask?-Yes.
14,195. Have you not done so since the first year?-I think not.
14,196. When did you last take such a slip with you to the Custom
House?-I think not after the first year, so far as I can recollect.
14,197. The first year of what?-The first year, say, 1867; I think I
have not done it since that time.
14,198. Can you not tax your memory so far as to say whether or
not you had it in 1870?-I did not have it in 1870; I am quite sure
of that.
14,199. Nor in 1871?-Nor in 1871.
14,200. May you have had it in 1869?-I think not.
14,201. Was the last time you had it in 1868?-To the best of my
recollection I think it was.
14,202. May you have had it in 1869, although you don't
remember?-I think not, but I cannot be quite positive.
14,203. But you are quite clear about 1870, that you had no note
whatever of the men's accounts with you, except what was entered
in the account of wages?-Yes. I did not require it then. It could
do no good.
14,204. Why was it required in 1868?-Because sometimes the
men settled their accounts at the Custom House.
14,205. Would that be done often?-Sometimes; but not as a rule,
I think.
14,206. When these regulations were introduced, and you first
went up to the Custom House to settle, was it not intended that
all the accounts should be settled there and then?-That was the
regulation.
14,207. Was it intended that all Mr. Leask's accounts should be
paid at the same time that the men got their money handed over in
presence of the superintendent?-There was no formal proposal
about that.
14,208. Was it not done in some cases?-In some cases it was,
when the men agreed to do it.
14,209. Did the superintendent object to that?-He did not object.
The whole money was paid down to the men, and sometimes they
gave back what they knew they had to give back.
14,210. Would that be done in one half of the cases?-I could not
speak to a proportion.
14,211. When they did not hand back then what was due to Mr.
Leask, what was done?-They handed it back when they came
down to the office afterwards.
14,212. Do they come down to the office now and pay their
accounts after being settled with at the Custom House?-Yes.
14,213. Do you settle with five or six or a dozen of them at a time,
as the case may be?-Yes, any number, from one up to a dozen, or
perhaps more.
14,214. Is the settlement with these men after they have got their
cash always carried out and finished on the same day at Mr.
Leask's office?-Yes, invariably.
14,215. Do they come straight down from the Custom House to the
office and pay their accounts there?-They generally come in the
course of the day.
14,216. Do they come down along with you?-If it is only one
man who has been settled with, perhaps we will come down
together, and perhaps not, just as it happens. I have no fear for
them coming down. I never bother my head about them after I
give them the money.
14,217. Do you leave them to come down or not as they please?-
Decidedly.
14,218. Is there never a black sheep to whom you have to suggest
the propriety of coming straight down?-The men know they have
the money to pay, and they look upon it as a just debt.
14,219. Is there not a note kept if a man fails to come down?-We
are not likely to forget that. There is no note of it kept.
14,220. Do you note the fact that you have settled with him for his
wages and oil-money?-Yes. The account is squared at once as
soon as we come down from the Custom House.
14,221. Do you not note the fact in some form or [Page 355] other,
that the man has not come down to settle his account when he has
failed to do so?-No, the book would show that without any note.
I may say, however, that I have scarcely ever had a case of that
kind, except it may be one.
14,222. Was that Robert Grains?-Yes; and even he did come
down ultimately and settle his account. He was settled with along
with about a dozen others, and they all went down. Some of them
had been settled with before I came down from the Custom House,
but he did not come until I came myself.
14,223. Did he come down with you?-No; he came down
himself. I believe the other lads induced him to come back to
the shop and settle his account.
14,224. Had he at first refused to do so?-He had been telling the
lads that he was going to keep the money or most of the money. I
think they said he wanted to go right away and never come near
the shop at all, but they induced him to come.
14,225. Did he give any reason for wanting to go away?-Nothing,
except that he wanted the money for some other purpose.
14,226. Was his account for goods equal to the whole amount of
his wages?-He had about £1 to get.
14,227. That means that he had all his money to hand over to you
except £1?-Yes.
14,228. Did you speak to him on the subject?-I did. I asked him
if he meant to swindle us out of the money for the outfit that he got
to enable him to go to Greenland.
14,229. Was it at the Custom House you said that to him?-No, it
was at the office after he had come down. He said no, but that he
required money to pay for a boat or to buy a boat, or something of
that kind.
14,230. Did that happen on the day of settlement?-Yes.
14,231. Had you understood before that he was intending to go
away without paying your account?-No, I had no idea of it.
14,232. Then how did you happen to ask him that question?-He
came back to the office after he came out from the Custom House,
and he was going to give back part of the money, but he wanted to
keep more than he actually had to get after paying Mr. Leask's
account.
14,233. But how did you know that he required persuasion to
induce him to come back and pay his account?-I recollect the
other lads telling me that they had induced him to come back.
14,234. Had they told you about that before Grains came down?-
I scarcely think so. I think there were several of them there along
with him when I came down.
14,235. Did he come down from the Custom House along with
you?-No.
14,236. Was he at the office when you came down from the
Custom House?-I am not quite sure whether he was actually
there when I came down, but most of that crew were discharged
that day. They had been landed the day before, and most of them
were discharged on the day after they landed.
14,237. I don't quite understand how you knew about Grains
having been unwilling to pay his account?-I knew it when he
came to the office to give back the money that I had paid him at
the Custom House.
14,238. Did he refuse to give you back the money?-He did; not
all, but part of it.
14,239. Did he want to pay only a portion of his account?-Yes.
14,240. Did he say that to you when he came to the office?-Yes.
14,241. Was that the first intimation you had got of his intention to
keep part of the money?-I think so.
14,242. Did you object to that, and tell him he must pay the
whole?-I did.
14,243. Did you intimate what the consequences would be if he
did not?-Yes; I daresay I told him that we would pull him up. I
considered that we had run a considerable risk in giving him an
outfit for his first year at Greenland, and that we were entitled to
get the advance repaid, because we might never see him again.
14,244. Have you had occasion to advise any of the men on other
occasions as to the propriety of paying agents' accounts, or giving
them similar advice to what you gave in the case of Grains?-No;
I think that was the only case which has occurred out of many
hundreds.
14,245. Have the men always walked down quietly enough to your
office?-Yes.
14,246. And often in company with you?-Very often. Perhaps, if
there was one, he came back with me; but, as a rule, I would often
stay behind for a little, or go down to the office by some other
way.
14,247. Then possibly the men may have gone to the office before
you?-They often did.
14,248. When you had a batch of them at the Custom House, did
you not send some of them down to the office direct, while you
waited to finish your settlement with the others?-They were
settled with one by one; and they went away as they were settled
with.
14,249. But as they were settled with, did you not send them down
to the office?-They went of their own accord.
14,250. Did you never tell them to go to the office?-They knew
to go.
14,251. Did you never tell them?-I have seen me telling them to
go as soon as possible, because I wanted them to be settled with
and away before I came down. Mr. Robertson generally would be
waiting for them, and he might have to go out.
14,252. Do you mean that Mr. Robertson would be expecting
them?-Yes.
14,253. And he might have other engagements which he had to
attend to as soon as their business was over?-Yes.
14,254. Therefore I suppose you may often have had occasion to
tell them to go down to the shop direct from the Custom House?-
I may have told them to go as soon as possible.
14,255. Did you not always do so?-No.
14,256. Did you not always tell them so when you thought it was
necessary?-No.
14,257. Do you mean that you may have thought it necessary for
them to go to the shop and settle, and that yet you refrained from
telling them so?-I never thought much about it at all. I just gave
them the money; and sometimes I would tell them to go to the
shop as soon as possible, because Mr. Robertson would be waiting
for them. Sometimes that was about the dinner-hour, and very
often they would not be there until I came down myself. I would
be engaged settling with them up till three o'clock.
14,258. Did you consider that it was not necessary on every
occasion to tell them to go back to the shop?-Yes.
14,259. Was that because the men understood quite well that
they were to go to the shop and settle their accounts?-The men
understood that quite well. They understood they had got the
money that was due to them from the shop, and they understood
that in general they had accounts in the shop for cash or goods,
and sometimes for advances to their families, and they required
no persuasion to go and repay these sums when they had got their
money.
14,260. Did they know that they were expected to go down to the
shop?-They were expected to go.
14,261. But did they know that they were expected?-They knew
it.
14,262. So that, although they might have had debts due to other
merchants, they were expected to go down and pay Mr. Leask in
the first instance?-Yes.
14,263. And you expected that, although those debts to other
merchants might have been incurred earlier than Mr. Leask's?-
The debt contracted on the voyage was the first debt to be settled,
and it was always understood that that debt had first to be paid,
because it was all incurred during the voyage.
14,264. You mean that it had been incurred for the purpose of the
voyage, and you held that you had a [Page 356] prior claim on the
proceeds of that voyage for the amount of your account, just as a
merchant has a lien on the supplies he furnishes to a shop?-Yes.
14,265. Would you have objected to the men going away and
paying the earlier accounts before they paid Mr. Leask's?-Of
course, if they paid them out of that money.
14,266. Had you instructions from Mr. Leask, or Mr. Robertson, or
any one in Mr. Leask's employment, to see that the men did come
down and pay their accounts?-I had no such instructions.
14,267. Did you consider that a part of your duty?-I did not
consider it to be any part of my duty at all. If I had a dozen men
to settle with, I settled with them one after another, and they went
away. I did not tell them to stay there until I came with them, or
follow them down by any means.
14,268. Was it no part of your duty to warn a man who was going
away without paying, that he had first to settle his account at the
shop?-No, I never saw a man who went away without paying.
14,269. But suppose the case of a man who did so: was it any part
of your duty to remind him of the debt which he was due to Mr.
Leask?-No. They did not require any reminding. They knew
quite well about it.
14,270. Why did you cease to settle with the men in the Custom
House after 1868?-Because the shipping master objected, and
would not allow it to be done.
14,271. Was it to you, or in your presence, that he took that
objection?-Yes, I was present.
14,272. Did he take the objection in any particular case when a
settlement of that kind was going on with the men?-No, there
was no particular case.
14,273. Did he do so at a time when you were settling with a
man?-Yes; either with a man, or two or three men, I forget
which.
14,274. What took place then?-The men just went to the office.
14,275. Did you remonstrate with the superintendent?-No.
14,276. You just went down to the office with the men, and settled
with them there?-The men went to the office, and I finished my
business at the Custom House and went down too.
14,277. Did you consider it a grievance to be prevented from
settling with the men in the Custom House?-If the men were
agreeable for it, I thought there was nothing wrong in it. It was
entirely with their concurrence that it was done.
14,278. Is there anything else you wish to say wish to say?-I wish
to say that I have examined the books, and I find that Mr. Jack
Williamson's rent at Ulsta was not advanced after Mr. Leask
purchased the property. I now show the valuation roll of 1860,
where it is entered at £8, 10s., and in 1871 it is entered at the same
sum. That rent included the farm and all accommodation-the
shop, beach, booth, and everything.
14,279. I see he was tenant of an additional subject in 1871, for
which he paid a rent of 10s.; and of grazing park at Ulsta at a rent
of £6?-Yes; but the 10s. includes the dwelling-house, shop, farm,
and all accommodation he had about the place.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ADAM TAIT, examined.
14,280. You are a shopman to Mr. Robert Sinclair?-I am.
14,281. Did you purchase a hap lately from Margaret Jamieson,
Quarff, who has been examined today?-Mr. Sinclair purchased it,
and I settled with her for it the time she sold it.
14,282. When was that?-About three days ago. It was a long
plaid she sold.
14,283. What was the price of it?-20s. in goods; and that was
paid.
14,284. To what extent did you supply her with goods?-I gave
her 19s. 6d. worth of goods and 6d. in cash. She wanted 3s. in
cash. I told her the bargain was made in goods, and I could not
give it to her in cash. Besides, there was no cash in the drawer at
the time. Then she thought of something else she wanted, and I
borrowed 6d. from the clerk in the end gave it to her.
14,285. Did you tell her that if she got 1s. 6d. in cash it would be
charged as 1s. 9d. against her?-I believe I did say that she would
be charged 2d. in the shilling if she wanted cash, as the bargain
had been made in goods.
14,286. Did you tell her that if she got 1s. in cash it would be
charged as 1s. 3d. against her?-No. I merely said it would be
2d. in the shilling. I might have given her the cash she asked if
we had had it, but there was no change in the shop at the time,
and I had to borrow the sixpence that I gave her.
14,287. On what day was that?-I think it was on Wednesday last,
but I am not certain, and about twelve or one o'clock in the day.
I recollect the transaction very well, as the woman seemed to be
ill-pleased when she went out.
14,288. Is it a frequent thing to tell a woman who asks for cash;
that there is no cash in the shop?-No; that does not often happen.
Lerwick, January 27, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
14,289. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to the
evidence which has just been given?-I wish to say that it often
happens that we have no small change in the shop, unless we get
change for £1 and any cash that we get during the day is frequently
given out again for goods before night. Therefore it is no evasion
to say that there is no cash in the shop, because it is often the fact.
14,290. That happens in a great many shops, and it may happen
more frequently in a shop where the cash transactions are few and
barter transactions prevail?-Yes; it happens more frequently in
that case.
<Adjourned>.
LERWICK: MONDAY, JANUARY 29, 1872
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Mrs. CATHERINE WILLIAMSON,
recalled.
14,291. I understand you wish to make a correction on the
evidence you gave on the first day of this inquiry?-Yes. I stated
that I had sold a shawl to Mr. Laurenson; but I should have said it
was to Mr. George Laurence, Commercial Street, Lerwick, and not
to Mr. Arthur Laurenson.
14,292. Was the rest of your evidence correct?-Yes.
[Page 357]
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, ANDREW B. JAMIESON, recalled.
14,293. Do you wish to make any addition to your former
evidence?-Yes. I wish to say with regard to the Accountant to
the Board of Trade's report, that I consider it unjust to the agents
concerned in the Greenland trade, and I concur generally in all that
was said by Mr. William Robertson on that point.
14,294. Is there any particular fact in that report, apart from
matters of opinion, which you think is incorrectly stated?-
The report commences: 'In accordance with my instructions, I
paid special attention to the circumstances attending the official
discharge of Shetland seamen after voyages made in whaling
vessels, great difficulty and delay having been experienced by the
Board of Trade in getting the releases for such voyages completed
within anything like a reasonable time.' I do not consider that to
be correct. The Board of Trade never fixed a time for the releases
to be completed, and consequently the men do not come for their
settlement until it suits their own convenience.
14,295. Do you mean that before 1868 no rule existed on that
subject?-There is no time fixed even now for the men to come.
14,296. Does not the third head of the regulations provide
that, when the men are landed, the master shall deliver the
store-book, and that the balances due shall be paid in presence
of the superintendent?-The master does deliver the store-book
when the crew are landed, but the regulation does not say that the
men are to appear immediately before the superintendent. If they
would remain in town, that would be done; but they prefer going
home, especially when they are not required by the regulations to
remain.
14,297. The Merchant Shipping Act provides that the master or
owner shall pay the wages of every seaman within three days
after the cargo has been delivered, or within five days after the
seaman's discharge, whichever first happens?-These are the
terms of the Act; but that never was the rule in the Greenland
trade, because the men are landed in any part of Shetland the ship
first comes to, and the men never come forward to Lerwick to be
settled with until it suits them to come.
14,298. I don't know that Mr. Hamilton lays the blame upon the
agents for the delay in getting the releases completed?-Not in
that sentence, but he does so subsequently in his report. He says,
'When the whalers return after a short and successful voyage, it is,
under this system, manifestly to the agent's interest that the
Shetland portion of the crews should not be settled with at once.'
14,299. Do you say that that is not for the agent's interest?-I say
that it is not. It is not for his interest to delay the settlement, and
the settlement is not delayed by him.
14,300. Is it not for the agent's interest to have the money in his
hands as long as possible?-Perhaps if he has the money in his
hands, he may make a few shillings of interest; but when the men
come forward individually to settle, there is more time spent in
making the settlement than any profit he can make can cover.
Then Mr. Hamilton says, 'But no time is fixed for settlement, and
the consequence is that it is the interest of the agent to delay it
until he gets the man in debt to him again, and when he does
pay to the man the balance of wages due to him before the
superintendent, the man has no option but to hand it all back to
the agent at once, to whom he is indebted in an equal or greater
amount.' That statement is not consistent with fact.
14,301. Is it not true, as you have already stated, that the seamen
do hand back to the agent the money which they have got?-Yes,
but it is not true that they are indebted to the agent in an equal or
greater amount.
14,302. You think the amount of debt is not generally equal to the
amount payable in wages?-I am quite sure it is not.
14,303. Was it, at any time in your experience, common for a man
to have an amount of debt to the agent equal to the amount of his
wages and oil-money?-Very often, when they had made a bad
voyage, the younger hands would be in debt.
14,304. Mr. Hamilton says, in another part of his report: 'For this
purpose to engage the men at Lerwick, they employ agents in
Lerwick, who get, I am informed, little direct profit from their
agency. Their chief profit arises from what they can make out of
the earnings of the men;' is there anything incorrect in that, in
point of fact?-It is quite correct that the agents have little direct
profit from their agency. The remuneration is quite inadequate for
the amount of work and expense connected with the trade. Then
he says, 'These agents are all shopkeepers, and most of them are
proprietors of land themselves, or act as land agents for others.'
There are only four agents altogether, and there are only two of
them who are proprietors of any quantity of land. The others do
not act as land agents, so far as ever I heard. 'Many of the men
engaged are utterly unable, without the assistance of the agents, to
provide themselves with the clothing necessary for the voyage.'
That applies chiefly to the young hands, who require extra clothing
when going to such a cold climate, and they get it from the agents.
'It is quite common for allotments of wages to be made out in
favour of the agents.' I never saw that. It is not done in Mr.
Leask's business. Of course I cannot speak with certainty for
the others, but am pretty certain it is not done in any case.
14,305. In your experience the seaman takes no allotment note at
all, so that the only advances which are got during his absence are
those which are made through the agent in the shape of supplies to
his family, without any allotment note being required?-Yes. We
have always done so.
14,306. But the agent is quite aware that no allotment note has
been granted?-Yes.
14,307. So that the effect is just the same as if the allotment note
had been given to the agent?-It is not quite the same in settling
with them, because we have to pay the whole money to the men;
whereas, if an allotment had been granted, it would have been
deducted.
14,308. But if there is no allotment note made out to the man, and
given to his wife or any of his friends, the agent has not to pay the
money away?-No.
14,309. So that he is in perfect safety to make advances in the
shape of any supplies which may be required during the man's
absence?-He is quite safe to do that if the man pays him back
at the end of the voltage.
14,310. At least he is in greater safety than if the man's friends
were in a position to draw part of his wages during his absence,
because he knows that the wages cannot be spent?-Yes. If the
man's family have a note, that is all the advance they require in
general; but as it is when a family have a weekly allowance, I
should say they get about one half of their allowance in cash.
14,311. Do the families have a weekly allowance from the
agent?-In some cases.
14,312. Is that done by private arrangement?-Yes.
14,313. Are these families residing in Lerwick, or mostly in the
country?-Mostly in Lerwick. Families residing in the country
only send in occasionally for anything they may require, but they
are not by any means bound to do it.
14,314. But is it a common thing for the families of men residing
in Lerwick, or near it, to get a weekly advance in provisions or in
money?-It is quite common.
14,315. Is it mostly in provisions or mostly in money that that
advance is given?-I think it is about one half in money. They
always get some money.
14,316. Is that entered in the man's account?-Yes. Then it is
not correct to say that a man who wants to take his outfit from any
shopkeeper is practically debarred from doing so. He can do so if
he likes.
14,317. Does he ever do it?-There is no doubt he does.
14,318. Have you ever known any case of a man doing so?-Yes,
plenty. We know that when a man does not get goods from us, he
must get them somewhere else.
[Page 358]
14,319. But he may have had an outfit before, and did not require a
fresh one for that voyage?-He may.
14,320. Have you ever known a man who required an outfit for a
voyage taking it from any agent but the one who engaged him?-
Yes.
14,321. Can you name any case of that kind?-I could not exactly
name a case.
14,322. Could you show me any case in your books in which the
man has not got some outfit from you?-Not very many, I think.
On short voyages to the sealing, a considerable number of the men
would not require it. Men who had been going there for years, and
who were only going on a short voyage, would be well enough
provided with clothes. Generally men who get good wages are all
provided with their necessary outfit.
14,323. But you think you could show me very few cases in your
books in which a man did not require some outfit and did not get
it from you?-On long voyages perhaps there are not many.
14,324. Did you ever supply an outfit to a man going on a whaling
voyage upon the engagement of any of the other agents?-I think
not exactly an outfit; but we have sold them individual articles.
14,325. Did you ever do that on credit?-I daresay we have.
14,326. Do you know that you have?-Yes.
14,327. In what case?-I could not exactly name a case, because if
a man comes in wanting to buy anything we sell it to him, if the
other agent did not have it, or he did not choose to take it from
him. I know that has been the case both with us and with others.
14,328. Have you run an account with the man for that?-If he
was well known to us, we would have no objection to give him
credit.
14,329. But can you name the case of any man who was engaged
for the whaling by another agent and who received credit from
you?-I could not name a case. It is done just in the ordinary way
of trade, and we would not pay any attention to a case like that.
We could not be expected to recollect where every customer was
going.
14,330. Is it not the case that every man who engages with you
does take so much of his outfit as he requires from Mr. Leask's
shop?-I think that is very generally the case; but he does it
because he chooses to do it, and because, I suppose, he thinks he
will be as well served there as by going elsewhere. With regard to
the report, again, I say that the greater proportion of the men are
settled with in a reasonable time.
14,331. Do you mean within six months?-The greater proportion
of them are settled with in one month.
14,332. That is the case now?-Yes.
14,333. But formerly the time was considerably greater, was it
not?-I don't think there was much difference. The men came
then when it suited them, and they do the same now, except when
they are all landed in Lerwick at one time, and choose to stay few
days in town to get the settlement carried through. They are not
bound to a day now more than they were then; but the releases and
official papers in the Custom House can prove the proportion of
men discharged within the month.
14,334. Mr. Robertson showed me some accounts with Greenland
whaling men in which there was a charge for insurance upon
outfits: is that an arrangement made by you with the men?-Yes.
14,335. Have you explained to them the nature of the charge, and
why it was made before entering it in your books against them?-
Yes; we have been doing that for the last fifteen years at least. If
the vessel is lost, then the men don't pay for the outfit; it is paid by
the insurance.
14,336. Mr. Leask is also an agent for the Shipwrecked Mariners'
Fund, and there is a charge of 3s. made at the beginning of each
man's account for a payment to that Fund?-Yes.
14,337. Does that 3s. cover the loss of clothing?-They get that in
addition. When the vessel is lost, the man gets an allowance for
clothing, and also the payment from the Shipwrecked Mariners'
Fund. He gets the allowance for clothing in this way: that he pays
nothing for the goods if the vessel is lost, and then he gets the
allowance from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Society in addition,
and is sent home free if he is landed in any part of the kingdom.
14,338. Therefore that is a double insurance?-Yes.
14,339. If a man is lost, his widow, in return for the 3s., gets an
annuity or some allowance?-Yes. The amount of it depends on
the number of years he has subscribed, and the number of his
family. It varies considerably; but she gets an allowance at first,
and generally a small annual grant.
14,340. Is that 3s. paid in every case when the men are going
to Greenland?-It is such a small payment, and they have
experienced so much benefit from it, that they never object to
it now.
14,341. I suppose that charge is entered in a man's account as a
matter of course?-Yes.
14,342. You say that if a man who subscribes that 3s. loses his
outfit, or his boat, or anything, that is covered by the insurance,
and he is entitled to a certain payment, which is made by the
agents?-Yes.
14,343. Is that payment always made in cash?-Always.
14,344. How long is it since it has been universally made in cash at
your agency?-It has always been made in cash, so far as I had to
do with it.
14,345. Do you remember of any sums of a few pounds in cash
being paid from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-There are
often payments of that kind.
14,346. Do you remember any case of it man being refused
payment of his allowance in cash?-No.
14,347. Or being asked to take goods?-No, I don't recollect any
such case.
14,348. Do you remember the case of a man named Williamson
from Coningsburgh having a claim against Mr. Leask, as agent for
the Society, in respect of a loss which he had sustained, and falling
within the conditions of the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund?-I
don't recollect anything about the case or about the man.
14,349. Do you remember any case where the amount due from
the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund was put to the credit of a person
insured, in order to reduce the debt due by him to Mr. Leask?-
No, I don't recollect any such case.
14,350. Can you say that that has never been done?-I cannot say
that exactly. Perhaps if the man chose to put the money to his
account it would be done.
14,351. But can you say it has never been done where the man did
not choose to put the money to his account?-It has never been
done where the man did not choose, so far as I know.
14,352. Do you know any case in which Mr. Leask has asked the
man to do it, or has proposed to do it, and the man has resisted?-
No.
14,353. Is an allowance of that kind sometimes put to the credit of
a man who has an account in Mr. Leask's books, and taken out in
goods in the course of the year?-It may be in some cases.
14,354. Is it not usually the case when a sum of that kind falls due
that it is entered to the man's credit?-That is not usually the case,
because nobody knows whether it will be paid or not, or whether
the man will have a claim to receive money.
14,355. But when you know that it is due, and that it is to be paid,
and the man happens to have an account, is the amount not just
entered in that account and credited to the man?-It may be in
some cases, but it is only when a man is wrecked that he is entitled
to any allowance from the Society; we don't know when he is to
be wrecked, and therefore he cannot get advances on the faith of a
claim against the Society.
14,356. I am not speaking about advances on the faith of a claim;
but when the money is due, is it not generally put into the man's
account?-Not generally, but there may have been a case or two of
that kind.
14,357. Is it generally handed over to him in cash?-Generally.
[Page 359]
14,358. Even when a man has an account, and when the balance
of that account is against him?-The man perhaps will not require
it to be handed over to him if he had an account and wished the
amount of his debt to be reduced by putting that to it. In that case
there would be very little occasion for a transfer of the cash, but I
can scarcely recollect any cases of that kind.
14,359. I am not asking whether the man wishes it or not, I am
asking whether it is ever done, or whether it is generally done?-I
should say it is not generally done. I would say it is almost never
done.
14,360. How many of these payments have you to make in the
course of a year?-In some years there are very few.
14,361. Will there sometimes be a dozen?-Perhaps there may,
but I could not say, without the books.
14,362. And you say that out of the dozen payments which you
make, one half of them will pass through the men's accounts?-
No, I should not say that.
14,363. Should you say that three out of every dozen did so?-No,
I should not even say that.
14,364. Should you say that one in every dozen passed through
the men's accounts?-I might say one, but I could not be sure. It
might be less, or it might be none at all.
14,365. Might it not be more?-It is not a regular business
transaction at all, and it is very seldom that such a thing ever
enters the accounts. It is a present payment for an accident
happening to a man, and he just gets the money, and there is no
more about it; but it might happen occasionally that he applied it
towards payment of a debt.
14,366. The premium or subscription of 3s. universally passes into
the man's account?-Yes.
14,367. I cannot quite see why the payment of a policy should not
also go into the man's account if he has one?-It is only when a
man is wrecked that such it payment is to be made. There are
many men who have been paying for twenty or thirty years, and
have never had occasion to claim against the Society, while there
are others who have.
14,368. But if a man happens to have an account running with Mr.
Leask, do you say that the payment is made to him in cash rather
than put in to the account?-No, I don't say that, because the man
might make no difficulty in applying it to his account, if he had
one; but we are applying for men from different parts of the
country who have no account with us, and in these cases the
money is paid over at once.
14,369. In the majority of cases in which the money is paid
through you when it is due, is it not to the men who have paid
their premium through you?-By no means. We issue a great
many tickets to men who are not in our employment at all,-men
going south, and fishermen on the islands. I think we are generally
called upon to make applications in cases of loss in preference to
the other agents, and that money is paid over to the men at once.
14,370. Then do you say it is the case that the money is entered in
the man's account whenever he has an account with you?-If the
man to whom the money was to be paid had an account, it might
probably be put to that account; but of course it would only be
done with the man's concurrence.
14,371. Did you ever know any man object to that being done?-I
cannot say that I ever did.
14,372. Are you sure that you never did?-Yes, I am sure.
14,373. Is there anything else you wish to say?-I wish to correct
the statement made in the report, that it is the interest of the agent
to delay the settlement until he gets the man in debt to him again.
I say that is not the fact.
14,374. Is it not the fact that that is the interest of the agent?-It
may be the interest of the agent, but it is never done.
14,375. The report only says that it is the interest of the agent: it
does not state that he does it?-I think it does. It says that the man
is indebted to the agent in an equal or greater amount, and that it is
the interest of the agent to delay settlement until he gets the man
in debt to him again. What I object to in that statement is the
impression conveyed by it, that all the men are in debt to an equal
or greater extent than their earnings. I think that is the way in
which the statement would naturally be read; but, as a rule, the
men do not run accounts after they come home until they settle,
and then they will only buy what they require. They are never
importuned to buy or to take goods, nor is the settlement delayed
for that purpose.
14,376. You say the men are never importuned to buy anything.
Are they not asked at settlement if they want anything?-No.
Their money is paid them as soon as they call for it, without any
demur.
14,377. I know it is; but are they not asked at that time if they want
to take any goods?-After they have got their money we may ask
them if they want anything; and if they are as well served by us as
elsewhere, sometimes they do buy some goods.
14,378. I suppose in a number of cases the men are quite ready to
take what they want from your shop, and to pay for it with the cash
they have got?-Yes.*
*Mr Jamieson afterwards put in the following Return in
supplement of his evidence:-
RETURN relative to the Discharge of Greenland Seamen from
Vessels for which Mr. JOSEPH LEASK was Agent. Year 1871.
Ship's Name and Voyage No. of men Date of Place of
En-gaged Landing Landing
a Camperdown, sealing voyage 33 Apr. 30 Lerwick
b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 Apr. 17 Lerwick
c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 Apr. 17 Lerwick
d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 Apr. 21 Scalloway
e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 31 Apr. 17 Lerwick
f Victor, sealing voyage 30 June 1 Lerwick
g Alibi, sealing and
whaling voyage 19 July 21 near Scalloway
h Total 206 62 52
i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 20 Oct. 26 Lerwick
j Polynia, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 19 Oct. 26 Lerwick
k Narwhal, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 14 Oct. 29 Scalloway
l Camperdown, Davis Straits
Whaling voyage 26 Nov. 11 Lerwick <via>
Longhope
m Total 79
Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in
Apr. May June July
a Camperdown, sealing voyage 25
b Polynia, sealing voyage 12 11
c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 15 3
d Narwhal, sealing voyage 13 9
e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 22 4
f Victor, sealing voyage 19 5
g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 4
h Total 62 52 19 9
i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits
whaling voyage
j Polynia, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 19
k Narwhal, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 14
l Camperdown, Davis Straits
Whaling voyage
m Total
79
Ship's Name and Voyage Numbers Discharged in
Aug Sept Oct Nov Dec
a Camperdown, sealing voyage 3 1 1 2
b Polynia, sealing voyage 3 6 2
c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 10 2
d Narwhal, sealing voyage 2 2 3
e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 1 2 1
f Victor, sealing voyage 19 4 1
g Alibi, sealing and whaling voyage 10 1 1
h Total 33 4 7 13 5
i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 8 10 2
j Polynia, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 19
k Narwhal, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 13 1
l Camperdown, Davis Straits
Whaling voyage 21 5
m Total 8 63 8
Ship's Name and Voyage
Not Dis- Totals Remarks.
charged
at
Year's
End
a Camperdown, sealing voyage 1 33 157 men returned in April, of whom
b Polynia, sealing voyage 34 95 were landed in one day. 114 were
c Esquimaux, sealing voyage 30 discharged by the end of May.
d Narwhal, sealing voyage 29 I requested the rest to return for
e Ravenscraig, sealing voyage 1 31 discharge not later than August, when
f Victor, sealing voyage 30 the ling fishing terminated.
g Alibi, sealing and whaling
voyage 19
h Total 2* 206 * The only cases I ever had.
i Ravenscraig, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 20
j Polynia, Davis Straits
whaling voyage 19 71 out of 79 landed in October and
k Narwhal, Davis Straits November were discharged in a month.
whaling voyage 14
l Camperdown, Davis Straits
Whaling voyage 26
m Total 79
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, WILLIAM BRUCE TULLOCH, examined.
14,379. You are a merchant and shipping agent in Lerwick?-I
am.
14,380. You have been engaged as an agent for Greenland [Page
360]whaling vessels for some time?-Yes, on my own account, or
as a partner of the firm of Laurenson & Co., for five years.
14,381. Before that, you were in the employment of Mr. Leask?-
Yes.
14,382. I understand you desire to make some statement with
regard to the evidence which has already been led upon this
subject?-Yes. I heard a part of the evidence of Mr. Wm.
Robertson; and some parts of what I heard I could not agree
with. In the first place, with reference to the handing of lists of
balances at the end of the year by one agent to another, he said
that practice had been discontinued for a number of years. So far
as I know, that is not the case.
14,383. Does that practice still exist?-I know nothing to the
contrary.
14,384. To what do you refer?-To the balances that may be due
by men to the agents.
14,385. Have you in your business had such lists handed to you, or
have you handed them to other agents in the trade?-Yes.
14,386. Is that still done?-It has been done within the last five
years. It was the only legitimate way of keeping before you the
men who were in debt. When they went from one agent to
another, that was the only way in which we could know where they
were, or whether they were still continuing to go in the trade; but,
of course, when any balance was recovered, it was always with the
entire concurrence of the indebted person.
14,387. Do you mean that when any balance was paid by an
agent on his behalf it was with his concurrence?-It was always
understood to be with his entire concurrence.
14,388. I suppose the practice you refer to came to this, that an
agent to whom a man was in debt was able to recover from the
agent who engaged him for the subsequent year in the Greenland
voyage the amount of his debt or a part of it?-Yes, that was the
object of it.
14,389. And the agent so paying became the creditor of the
seaman, and trusted to be repaid out of the man's earnings from
the voyage which was begun?-We might have a list of perhaps
half a dozen men from an agent, and it might happen that only one
of these men had been out for that agent for that year. If the man
had the means to pay and was willing to pay, then of course he left
it with the agent to do so.
14,390. If he had not the means to pay, was it usual for the agent
engaging him for that year to advance the money?-Never. I
never knew of a case where a debt was paid in that way, unless
when the man had money to receive at the end of the voyage.
14,391. Then, at the end of the voyage does the agent receiving
that list retain the money?-He would retain the money, and give
a note to the man, or send the money with the man.
14,392. Would he send the man down to your office?-The man
would often come himself, and sometimes be the bearer of a note
stating that he left that money with the agent.
14,393. Has that been done since the regulations of 1868 came into
force?-The regulations were in 1867.
14,394. The copy I have is dated 1868?-1867 was the first year
that the men had to be paid at the Shipping Office.
14,395. Was there a previous notice to that I have got, which is
dated February 1868?-I am not quite sure; but if there was one, I
think it must have been something similar.
14,396. The change of procedure may have taken place without a
notice; but you say that there was a change made in 1867?-Yes.
That was the first year when we were obliged to pay the whole at
the Shipping Office.
14,397. Have the lists you refer to ever passed since that new
system was introduced?-Yes.
14,398. Can you remember the last time when such a list was
handed to you?-I have a case here in point. In a book of the
'Arctic,' which I now produce there is an entry in the account of
Magnus Thomson, dated 29th April 1868, 'By value in account
with Hay & Co., 10s. 3d.'
14,399. The man was credited in the account for a sealing voyage
with 10s. 3d., paid by Hay & Co. to you, the balance having been
against him in his account with you for a previous sealing voyage
to the extent of 11s. 9d.?-Yes.
14,400. Was that done in consequence of your handing Hay & Co.
a note showing that balance against the man?-Yes.
14,401. Can you say whether any such cases have occurred since
1868?-I don't recollect any other case.
14,402. Have you ever handed such lists to Mr. Joseph Leask, or
any person in his establishment, or received them from his
house?-I went along one day and mentioned the names of two
men to one of Mr. Leask's men, but I had no list.
14,403. Who was the person to whom you mentioned the
names?-Mr. John Jamieson, the brother of the young man
who was examined just now. I told him the names of two men
who were indebted to me, and asked him if he would be kind
enough to mention it to them. A day or two afterwards one of
these men went to settle with Mr. Leask at the Shipping Office,
and was discharged, and shortly afterwards he came and paid me
a sum to account. I may mention that I was aware they could
not keep the amount off the man's account; but I mentioned the
matter to Mr. Leask's people, because I knew they would have an
opportunity of seeing the men when they came to be discharged,
and I wished them to remind them of their debt.
14,404. I suppose it was expected that if any case should occur in
which a debt was due to Mr. Leask, you would do the same good
office for him?-Yes.
14,405. Have you done so for Mr. Leask?-I am not aware that I
have.
14,406. Have the names of any persons been suggested by Mr.
Leask's people to you, in order that you might, if they were
engaged by you, remind them of their debt to him?-Not so far
as I recollect at present.
14,407. Is there any other point on which you differ from Mr.
Robertson?-When you referred to the case of a man not having
settled for his second payment until the time when he engaged for
another year's voyage, you asked him if, when he got that second
payment and his first month's advance for the following voyage,
he left much of that money with the agent. Mr. Robertson stated
that in many cases he did; but in all my experience, which has now
extended over thirty years, I seldom ever saw a man leave any part
of his first month's advance and his second payment both at the
same time with the agent. If he did, it was an exceptional case.
14,408. Did he usually transmit it to his family for their
maintenance during his absence, or spend it at the time in
supplies for them?-Yes; in the case of a married man, I think
the most of it was sent home, to be a provision for his family
during his absence.
14,409. Is it usual for the man, at the same time, to send home a
certain amount of supplies for his family upon an account?-Very
often that was the case.
14,410. Is it not the case now?-It is not done to the same extent
now, in consequence of the recent Board of Trade regulations,
because the men don't get nearly so many advances.
14,411. Is the agent not willing to trust them to the same extent
now?-No; they do not get the same sort of supplies now which
they did formerly, which was generally meal.
14,412. But does the agent still afford them supplies of another
kind?-He gives them an outfit for the voyage.
14,413. Does he not generally go beyond that in the supplies
which he gives to them?-Not to anything like the same extent
as formerly.
14,414. In fact he restricts their credit?-Very much.
14,415. Would you say that the advances given in that way are
now reduced by one half?-Fully. Another statement which Mr.
Robertson made was, that [Page 361] their books don't show the
cash paid when the men are discharged at the Shipping Office.
14,416. I understand from what Mr. Robertson stated, and I think
I saw from the books themselves, that the books still show the
amount due to the man after settling his account with Mr. Leask,-
that is to say, that the system of book-keeping which was in use
before 1867 is still continued in the shop?-Yes.
14,417. The cash is actually paid in presence of the
superintendent, but no settlement takes place in the books
until afterwards?-Yes.
14,418. Has your system been changed since 1867?-Our system
has not been changed; only, so far as I know, the practice of
paying the whole balance to a seaman was not put in force until
1871. We had then ceased to be agents.
14,419. Had you ceased to be agents in 1871?-Yes.
14,420. In what way was the system carried on until 1871?-Every
man on being landed was furnished with an account of wages,
according to the Board of Trade regulations; and our practice,
when furnishing that to a man, was to read over his account from
the ledger, and tell him what balance he had to get, according to
our account; and he was paid accordingly at the Shipping Office.
When he appeared at the Shipping Office, the shipping master, or
any one acting for him, asked the man if he had got his account of
wages from the agent. He said 'Yes.' 'Are you satisfied with your
account?' 'Yes;' and then I paid the amount of the balance. The
shipping master did not see that what I had paid was the exact sum
entered in the account of wages.
14,421. Then, in point of fact, what you paid was the sum actually
due to the man in his private account with you?-Yes; that is to
say, we squared accounts at the Shipping Office.
14,422. Was the shipping master aware that the cash actually
passing was not the sum stated in the account of wages?-I am
not aware of that. It was only last year that I understand the real
sum paid was entered in the release which a man subscribed, and
of course the shipping master had then to be satisfied that the
actual sum was paid.
14,423 Was there a change in the form of the release then?-Yes,
to that extent.
14,424. I understand the release is signed by the seamen, and
the sum paid to each man is entered in the column opposite his
name?-Yes.
14,425. That column either did not exist or was not filled up
previous to 1871?-Yes. There was no column of that kind then.
14,426. Was that the reason why, in 1871, the superintendent
began to look into the matter more closely, and to require that he
should be satisfied that the actual sum named in the regulation
account of wages was handed to the seamen?-Yes.
14,427. Under the present system, the superintendent has to give a
certificate to that effect upon the release?-I suppose so.
14,428. Mr. Robertson stated that, in his experience, no allotment
notes were ever taken in the names of the agents?-Yes; and that
is another thing with regard to which I differ from him. That has
been done in my own experience. Several young men, who had no
wives to receive their allotment notes, asked at the Shipping
Office if they could be made payable in my own name and the
shipping master said it was quite legitimate. I think that occurred
first in 1867.
14,429. Have you had such allotment notes in your own name
since?-They were signed in that way unasked by me. I never
knew about it until the men stated it in my presence.
14,430. The object of signing the allotment notes in that way was
to enable you to draw their wages, or rather to retain their wages in
security for your advances to them?-It had that effect.
14,431. In what year did you cease to act for Mr. Leask?-I left
him in the end of 1865.
14,432. Had any allotment notes been taken before then in the
agent's name?-Not to my knowledge.
14,433. While you in his employment, was it the practice to give
the sailors no allotment notes at all?-Yes. I am not aware, from
my own experience, that allotment notes were granted previous to
1867.
14,434. Is there any other point on which you differ from Mr.
Robertson's evidence?-Not having heard the whole of his
evidence, I cannot say; but these are the only points on which I
differ from him, so far as I heard what he stated.
14,435. You have handed me a memorandum with regard to the
voyage of the s.s. 'Narwhal' of Dundee, in the seal and whale
fishing of 1866, showing the earnings of the Shetland portion of
the crew, the amount in cash paid to each man, and the time of
settlement?-Yes.
14,436. Was that memorandum made for the owners?-No. I have
made it up from my books for the purposes of this examination.
14,437. That statement shows that thirty-one men were engaged
through you for that vessel in that year, that their earnings
amounted to £411, 15. 8d., and the amount paid in cash to £321,
19s. 10d. You also state the average earnings to be £13, 5s. 8d.;
the average cash £10, 7s. 9d., and the average goods £2, 17s.
11d.?-Yes.
14,438. You also state that seven of the men were discharged on
the same day when they left the vessel and that the others were
discharged afterwards at different times, varying from seven days
up till two, two and a half, seven and a half, and eight and a half
months after they left the vessel?-Yes.
14,439. Was the average amount of cash received by the men
of the 'Narwhal,' on that voyage, below or above, the average
received by men in other ships, in your experience?-I have not
looked particularly at the other books. That was not a very
successful voyage, otherwise the goods might have been a little
more, and the cash would have been more as well.
14,440. You have also produced a similar memorandum with
regard to the s.s. 'Arctic,' in 1867, after the new regulations were
introduced, which shows that the proportion in goods and money
had not altered very much?-Yes.
14,441. Do you think it has altered since 1867?-I don't think so.
14,442. I thought you said that since 1867 you had greatly limited
your advances to the men?-I consider the amount advanced, even
in 1867, to be limited.
14,443. The amount of goods advanced in 1866 was £2, 17s.
11d. out of £13, 5s. 8d. of average earnings in the case of the
'Narwhal,' and in 1867, in the case of the 'Arctic,' it was £2, 13s.
1d. out of £11, 15s. 3d. of average earnings: that was very nearly
the same proportion?-Yes.
14,444. Can you say that the amount of cash paid now is much
greater than it was as shown in this return?-No; of course much
will depend upon the success of the voyage, but I don't think there
would be a great difference in the proportion.
14,445. Then is this memorandum intended to show that as much
cash was paid before 1867 as you pay now?-I just took these two
ships for the two respective years. I had no such object in view as
you suggest.
14,446. Do you think that, in point of fact, as much cash was paid
before 1867 as is paid now?-As I said before, it depends very
much on the success of the voyage.
14,447. But you have had a great deal of experience, and, taking
an average successful voyage, would the payment of cash be as
great before 1867 as it has been since?-The regulations of the
Board of Trade won't interfere with that to any great extent, but
the agents have not been engaging so many young hands since.
14,448. Is it your experience, as well as Mr. Robertson's, that
green hands are not employed now to the same extent as they
were formerly?-Yes; that must be the experience of every one.
14,449. What is the total cost of a green hand's outfit?-About £7.
14,450. The average amount spent on outfit by a man who has
been at the whaling before must, I suppose, be [Page 362]
considerably less?-A man who has been there for many years
before may be keeping up his outfit.
14,451. May he require to spend £3 or £4 when he goes out
again?-He may not require to spend one half of that.
14,452. And besides that he obtains a higher wage?-Yes.
14,453. Are you in the habit of insuring your men's outfits?-Yes.
14,454. What is the rate of insurance?-I think it is from 5 to 6
guineas per cent. I may mention that the Greenland trade was
always considered to be a great nursery for seamen. A great
many of our naval reserve men now, the majority of whom
could compare with similar class in any part of Great Britain,
commenced their career in the Greenland trade; but now these
stringent Board of Trade regulations have utterly prevented, or
nearly so, agents from taking them.
14,455. Is that because it has lessened the agents' power over the
men?-No, it is because the men can only engage for one voyage;
while almost the whole of the ships go to the seal fishing first, and
come home, and then go back to Davis Straits.
14,456. Do the men ever engage for both voyages at once?-They
have done so for the last year or two but it is not legal.
14,457. But they did it formerly?-Yes.
14,458. And they have resumed the practice within the last year or
two?-Within the last two or three years the young hands have
come to know that they cannot be forced to go both voyages, but
that if they choose to leave at the end of the first voyage they do
so. Of course an agent, when giving him an outfit for the sealing
voyage, knew that nearly the same outfit would do for the whaling;
but he cannot run the risk of giving that outfit upon one voyage
merely, and therefore he cannot engage young hands.
14,459. I thought you said they had begun within the last year or
two again to engage them for both voyages?-No. I say they have
given it up within the last few years, because the young hands
came to know that they could not be compelled to go both voyages
if they chose to leave at the end of the sealing voyage.
14,460. Then that is another reason for ceasing to employ young
hands?-That, in my opinion, is principal reason.
14,461. Are these young hands not anxious to get employment for
both voyages?-If they have to rough it very severely in the first
voyage perhaps they get cured of going, and wish to stay at home.
14,462. But the abstracts you have produced show that the
amounts of goods in 1866 and 1867 were very much in the
same proportion; so that that is not consistent with the general
proposition you stated, that the agents have restricted their credits
to the men very much since these regulations were enforced?-As
I said before, I made up these two lists in this way, that one was
for the last year when the agents could settle without going before
the shipping master, and the other was for the following year when
they were compelled to go.
14,463. The abstracts you have produced, if they are to be taken as
representative cases, rather show that the system introduced in
1867 made no difference at all?-I merely took these two years as
specimens of what was done before and after the new system was
introduced. I can prepare statements for other years if you think it
necessary.
14,464. Perhaps the explanation may be that the 'Narwhal' was the
case in which the greatest amount of cash was paid before 1867, in
your experience?-I did not fix upon the ships in that way. I
merely took them for the reason I have stated. The first man's
account in that list shows that of £28, 11s. 3d. which he had to
receive, he got £27, 15s. in cash. What I meant to show by that
was, that the agent had no control over the man's cash, but that
when he asked it he got it.
14,465. How many ships had you in 1866?-Two; the 'Narwhal'
and the 'Erik.'
14,466. Did the men in the 'Erik' receive as large a proportion of
cash as those in the 'Narwhal'?-I could not say positively unless
I had the book, but I think they could not have had so much.
14,467. Would they have a good deal less?-They would have
considerably less, because the vessel returned clean. The voyage
was utterly unsuccessful.
14,468. Then, taking your experience while in Mr. Leask's
employment before 1866, should you say that the men sailing in
the ships for which he was agent generally received as much cash
as the men of the 'Narwhal' in 1866?-I think on an average they
would; but of course that would be in pretty successful years.
14,469. I am not speaking about the actual amount of cash
which they would receive, and whether it was larger or smaller,
but would they receive the same proportion of cash and of goods
as is shown by your memorandum?-Scarcely.
14,470. Would the proportion be considerably less?-I am hardly
prepared to say.
14,471. Are you prepared to say that since 1867 the men in the
ships under your charge have got the same proportions of cash as
against goods as are stated in the memorandum with regard to the
'Arctic'?-Nearly. I shall furnish a statement for a year or two in
order to show how the matter stood then.*
14,472. How many vessels had you in 1871?-I had none in 1871.
In 1870 I had two-the 'Narwhal' and the 'Arctic.'
14,473. Have you a separate book for each year?-I have for each
ship. I should wish to make a remark with regard to the report of
the Accountant of the Board of Trade. Enough, perhaps too much,
has already been said on that subject, but I think his report is
couched in rather exaggerated terms, and, to a cursory reader, is
calculated to convey a very erroneous impression. To a careful
reader it is very different, I must acknowledge, but with a cursory
reader it might have that effect.
14,474. Then you don't go so far as Mr. Robertson has gone, and
say that the statements in it are utterly erroneous?-No, I cannot
do that.
14,475. You merely object to the general impression which it
conveys?-Yes; but I decidedly object to that. I would also say
that in my experience, which is nearly as long as that of any one in
the agency I never knew of an agent intentionally putting off time
in settling with the men. When I was in Mr. Leask's employment,
before the passing of the Merchant Shipping Act, when the men
were landed and got what cash and goods they wanted, they would
generally ask at what time they would be settled with, and we
would tell them that in the course of a month, by which time we
got the returns ready-that is, the [Page 363] ship's accounts for
wages and oil-money-we would settle with them at any time.
That was the universal practice.
14,476. Formerly you did not settle with the men until you had got
funds put into your hands by the owners-No; and we generally
got these in the course of four weeks.
14,477. Do you know of any case in which a settlement was
refused on the ground that you had not received funds from the
owners?-No; I do not recollect of any such case.
14,478. Is there any foundation for this statement in Mr.
Hamilton's report: 'Any man who carried his custom to any
other shop than to that of the agent employing him, would run
the risk of being a marked man, not only with that particular
agent, but also with all the others, among whom the news of his
contumacy would soon spread; and as there are more men than
there are berths, he would probably never get any employment
again.' Has a man had any difficulty in getting employment
because he had carried his custom away from a particular agent?-
I don't think so. If there was such a case, I think it must have
been only one.
14,479. Was there one case?-I say I think it could only be one
case.
14,480. But do you know of any one case?-Having left Mr.
Leask's business, I consider it treading on rather delicate ground
to speak about that; and I would not like to be pressed. Of course
I must always remember in giving my evidence that I am on oath,
but I would not like to be considered as equivocating.
14,481. I think you are giving very candid evidence; but you ought
to tell if there is any foundation for the statement that the men had
been refused employment because they had carried their custom
elsewhere?-I am only aware of one solitary case.
14,482. Was that because the man had gone away and got an outfit
or supplies elsewhere?-I am not aware of a man being denied a
berth because he had taken an outfit elsewhere. I think the report
of the Accountant is incorrect in that respect, because I have
known no case in which a man has been refused a berth because
he had taken his outfit elsewhere.
14,483. What was the one case to which you referred just now?-I
cannot condescend upon the particulars which led to it specially;
but there was one case of man being engaged, or partly engaged.
He had been with the same master for some years before, but some
little difference arose, and the man was prevented from going the
voyage, and did not go to it. I cannot say what was the particular
cause for that.
14,484. What was the name of the man?-Thomas Manson,
Bressay. That has been the only case of that kind, in my
experience of the Greenland trade.
14,485. The practice in engaging seamen, I understand, is that the
men go to the agents and intimate their desire to be employed for
the voyage?-Yes.
14,486. The agent has not the power of making legal engagement
with the men, but the engagement is finally made by the
captain?-Yes.
14,487. Do you go on board the vessel with the men for the
purpose of having them engaged, or is the engagement generally
made by the captain on shore?-There have been a few cases of
engaging men on board ship, but very few.
14,488. But it is done at a meeting between the captain, the agent,
and the men?-Yes.
14,489. I suppose the agent, where there are a number of men, has
some voice with regard to their selection?-Unquestionably.
14,490. Are you aware whether any effort has been made by
agents, either yourself or others, to secure engagements for the
men who had larger accounts or larger debts in your books?-Of
course there have been a few cases where an engagement has been
got for a man who was in debt.
14,491. Do you know of any case where the captain has objected,
or complained of the efforts made by the agent to get such men
engaged?-No, I don't recollect of any such case.
14,492. Did you know a Captain M'Lennan who came here for
men?-Yes.
14,493. Did he make any objection of that kind on any
occasion?-No.
14,494. Did he not complain of it being done?-Not to my
knowledge. I never heard any such complaint, either from him
or from the owner on his behalf.
14,495. Were you at one time agent for a vessel of which he was
master?-Yes, in 1870. He had his men sent south to him in the
previous year. We had him for two years.
14,496. Were you not in business at all in 1871?-Not as shipping
agents.
14,497. Had you applied to have the agency for Captain
M'Lennan's ship in 1871, before you gave up the business?-
No; we had her from 1866 till 1871, when we gave her up
voluntarily.
14,498. Was no complaint made at all that you had endeavoured to
engage men who were in your debt or who were running accounts
with you?-No.
14,499. In your business, who was in the habit of settling with the
men at the Custom House? was it yourself or a clerk?-It was
invariably myself. In fact it was the same individual who had to
appear every time. The shipping master would not allow one
person to come now, and another person to come then.
14,500. You have already stated that, so long as you were engaged
in the trade, the amount of your account was deducted, and only
the balance was handed over to the man in presence of the
shipping master?-Yes.
14,501. So that, in point of fact, your account was settled in the
Custom House just as it was before the Board of Trade regulations,
with this exception, that there was no writing or reading over of
the accounts at that place?-Yes. Before 1867 it was done in our
own office. I may mention that in several cases, of which this
[showing an account of wages] is a specimen, the men actually got
what they had to get according to the Board of Trade regulations.
In that case the sum which the man had to get was £5, 16s. 3d.
14,502. Did he get the whole amount because he had no account at
all?-He had an account, but he got this sum in full because his
wife had not drawn all his allotments.
14,503. Were the allotments deducted in that account?-Yes, that
was invariably done.
14,504. Did you draw the allotments for your account?-We drew
them regularly from the owners.
14,505. So that this man got his balance due upon the account of
wages, because his allotments had been applied to the account due
to you?-Yes. I may mention that his account was very trifling,-
in fact was next to nothing; and in addition to that he had a
balance to get, when he came down to the office, of £3 odds due
upon his allotments.
14,506. Have you any vessels engaged in the Faroe trade?-No;
we are in no way connected with that fishing.
14,507. Have you any share as owner in any of the vessels for
which you have acted as agent?-No; and as we are entirely out
of that trade just now, have no reason for making the statements I
have done, except merely to give it correct account of the way in
which the business has been conducted. The statement I have
made is altogether an unprejudiced one.
14,508. But you think the 21/2 per cent. allowed to you was a very
inadequate remuneration?-Since the recent Board of Trade
regulations were issued, it was because we had often to throw our
own business aside to attend to the men when they came to settle.
*Mr. Tulloch afterwards furnished the following statement:-
Men on s.s. 'Arctic,' of Dundee, voyage to seal and whale fishing
in 1867.
Amount of wages and oil-money, £411 14 6
Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of
crew-35 men, 318 14 6
Amount of goods sold, £93 0 0
Average earnings, £11 15 3
,, cash, 9 2 1
,, goods, 2 13 1
Men on s.s. 'Narwhal's' voyage to seal and whale fishing
in 1869-M'Lennan, master.
Amount of wages and oil-money, etc.,. £303 15 2
Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of
crew-19 men, 255 11 6
Amount of goods sold, £48 3 8
Average earnings, £15 19 9
,, cash, 13 9 0
,, goods, 2 10 9
Men on s.s. 'Erik,' of London, voyage to seal fishing
in 1869-Robert Jones, master.
Amount of wages and oil-money, etc., £365 10 10
Amount of cash paid Shetland portion of
crew-25 men, 326 4 4
Amount of goods sold, 39 6 6
Average earnings, £14 12 5
,, cash, 13 1 0
,, goods, 1 11 5
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, GEORGE REID TAIT, examined.
14,509. You were for a number of years engaged as an agent in
Lerwick for whaling vessels?-I was.
14,510. How many ships had you generally?-I have had as high
as eighteen in one year.
[Page 364]
14,511. For these, I suppose, you would sometimes employ 100 or
200 men?-Fully that; perhaps about 250 men.
14,512. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Tulloch?-I have.
14,513. Are there any points on which you differ from him?-Yes.
So far as my own experience is concerned, since the issuing of the
Board of Trade regulations in 1867 we have invariably settled with
our men at the Shipping Office without deducting our own account
14,514. Were these settlements conducted by yourself, or by one
of your clerks?-Principally by one of my clerks; but at times,
when he was absent, I generally settled with the men myself.
14,515. Was that clerk Mr. Leisk, who is now your successor in
business?-Yes.
14,516. Is the statement correct that these settlements were
generally protracted for months, and were only made at intervals
as the men came up?-I don't think it is generally correct. When a
vessel arrived at Lerwick, the men were generally settled with at
once.
14,517. Even before 1867?-Even before 1867. I don't think there
is any difference with regard to the dates of settlement.
14,518. Then what effect have the regulations had?-I don't think
they have had very much effect, so far as my own experience goes.
14,519. Have they had the effect of reducing the amount of debit
against the men in the agents' books?-I don't think so.
14,520. You have not found it necessary in consequence to restrict
your advances to the men?-I have not. I just give them much
about the same as formerly
14,521. Have you formed any idea from your experience as to
what proportion of a man's earnings in an average voyage may be
exhausted by his supplies in goods?-I have taken a note of it for
the last three years. In some cases it has been as high as 20 per
cent.; but where the vessels were successful, the proportion of
goods was not by any means so great, compared with the amount
of oil-money and wages. In that case it would sometimes be
reduced to 5 per cent. In the case of the 'Arctic,' Dundee, last
year, £995, 6s. 8d. was paid at the Shipping Office to 29 men, and
they afterwards returned and paid me £48, 2s. 5d. for goods That
was a very successful year, and the 'Arctic' was particularly
fortunate. I may explain that out of the twenty-nine men there
were only eight taken on the second voyage The vessel made two
voyages, and that return is exclusive of the eight men who went
with her the second time.
14,522. So that the advances were really made for the sealing
voyage only?-Yes, really for the sealing voyage.
14,523. And I suppose it was from the sealing voyage that the
greater part of the returns were made?-No. I think the eight
men grossed pretty nearly as much from the second voyage.
14,524. But that was an extraordinary case altogether, was it
not?-Our vessels were all fortunate last year, on the whole.
14,525. However, you say that in some cases the amount of goods
has been as much as 20 per cent. of the whole earnings?-I think
so; but these were exceptional cases.
14,526. After the new regulations were issued, did the men
universally come down and settle their accounts as soon as they
received their cash at the Custom House?-As a rule, they did.
14,527. Are they expected to do so?-A great number of the men
who are customers of my own are always very honourable in
settling their accounts.
14,528. But is it understood when you are paying them the money
that they are to do so?-Yes.
14,529. Is there an understanding expressed at the time when they
are getting the advance, that they are to settle as soon as they
receive their wages?-We have never expressed it in words, but I
should fancy that there is such an understanding.
14,530. Have your accounts since 1867 been kept in the same way
as they were before?-In the same way.
14,531. That is to say, they show the receipt by the seaman of the
balance due after deducting his account, and don't show the actual
sum received by him at the Custom House?-We generally credit
the men with the full amount of wages, oil-money, and seal-money
payable to them; then there are the advances prior to the voyage;
then there is the sum paid at the Shipping Office;-the full amount
is entered against the men; and then the sum returned.
14,532. Do you make a separate entry of that so as to show what
has been actually paid?-Yes.
14,533. Have you known any case of a man declining to come
down from the Shipping Office to pay his account at the time?-
There have been two or three very rare cases.
14,534. What happened when such cases occurred?-The men are
still due the amount. That was all that happened.
14,535. Did you make any effort to get them an engagement in the
following year?-No; I have never seen them since. I think two of
them are south.
14,536. Have you seen any evidence on the part of the men in
other cases of an unwillingness to come down?-No. I have never
seen any evidence of that at all. We leave the men at the Custom
House after we pay them, and they always turn up afterwards and
pay us.
14,537. Do you ever accompany them down from the Shipping
Office?-We never have to do such a thing. It may be a day or
so before they come, but they always pay very honourably.
14,538. Do you generally tell them at the Custom House that they
are to come down to the office?-No. I do not recollect ever once
telling them that, or giving them the least hint on the subject. I
trust to their honour, and they always come forward. I may
remark, that masters of vessels coming home from the sealing are
very anxious to proceed with all despatch to Dundee or Peterhead,
and it is sometimes difficult to make the harbour here. It would be
an exceedingly annoying thing to force shipmasters to spend some
days perhaps in making Lerwick harbour; so that they are very
anxious in passing Shetland, to land their crews at any of the
islands; but in that case the expenses of the crew are invariably
paid to Lerwick, and it may be a fortnight perhaps before we see
the men. Generally speaking, however, they are in town in less
than eight days.
14,539. Have you known any cases in which your account for
goods furnished was entered in the captain's store-book?-I have
known cases of that some years ago-perhaps about three years
ago, I should fancy; but am not certain.
14,540. Was that done after the new system was introduced?-
There was a special order of the Board of Trade issued afterwards,
preventing us from doing so. It was done before that time.
14,541. Did that order prohibit such entries being made in the
captain's store-book?-Yes, with the exception of the captain's
own account.
14,542. Such entries were made, I presume, to entitle you to
deduct the amount of your account at the settlement before the
superintendent?-Yes.
14,543. Do you think the remuneration of 2 1/2 per cent. is
sufficient for the trouble that an agent has in obtaining
engagements for the men and settling with them?-That
depends entirely upon the success of the vessel. Some
vessels, such as the 'Arctic' in the voyage I have mentioned,
pay well enough; but if the vessel is unfortunate, the
remuneration is scarcely sufficient.
14,544. But, taking the vessels overhead, is it sufficient?-I don't
think it is, considering the time and trouble that are necessary.
14,545. Might not the rate of remuneration be raised by agreement
with the owners?-They have refused to increase it. There was an
application to that effect made some years ago, and I think they
refused to entertain it.
14,546. Then I fancy the agent's principal inducement to continue
in the business is that he has an opportunity [Page 365] of
supplying the men with goods?-I don't think there are many
agents inclined to continue the business now.
14,547. You have given it up yourself?-Yes.
14,548. But your successors are to continue it?-Yes. I think for a
year they are to continue it.
14,549. You are not one of the gentlemen who have come
voluntarily forward for the purpose of contradicting the official
report of Mr. Hamilton?-No; but, so far as my own experience
is concerned, I think Mr. Hamilton's report was very much
exaggerated. In fact it was not correct, because all our men
invariably got paid in full at the Shipping Office, without any
deductions, since 1867. From the report, it would appear that the
agent deducted his own account, but that was never done by me.
14,550. But if you put your account into the captain's store-book,
that was getting deduction of it?-There was a special clause in
the ship's articles, entitling us to do that. During the last three
years that has been prohibited, so far as the Shetland men's
accounts were concerned, but not in the Peterhead ships' articles.
I think the clause still holds good with regard to Peterhead crews.
14,551. In your business, were you in the practice of taking out the
allotments of wages in your own name?-No, not the allotments.
14,552. Did you give any allotment notes at all?-Yes, since 1867.
14,553. Did you do so in all cases?-No. I have had allotment
notes, in a few exceptional cases, made out in my own name, when
the men desired that. They volunteered it at the Shipping Office
in a few cases; but the great bulk of them were made out in their
wives' names and, where they were young men, in the name of
their mothers.
14,554. Were there many cases in which no allotment notes were
taken at all?-Yes. I think last year we had one crew who had no
allotment notes at all; and before 1867 I think no allotment notes
were given.
14,555. Since 1867, has it been a common thing for men not to
take allotment notes at all?-It is common thing for the men to
take them if the voyage is long; but if it is short, the captain does
not give allotment notes, because the voyage would be ended
before the first note was due.
14,556. Have you known any case in which agents have
endeavoured to secure engagements for men who were due
them money, or who were running accounts with them, in
preference to other men who were not in that position?-I
never knew any such case, although I have heard it often
talked about.
14,557. Have you heard the captains complaining that the agents
wanted them to take men who were indebted to them, rather
than the best men who were not in debt?-I have heard Captain
M'Lennan say so. I was not his agent at all, but I heard him make
such a complaint in our place last year. I did not know anything as
to the truth of it.
14,558. Were you acquainted with the system of exchanging lists
which Mr. Tulloch spoke of?-Yes; but I have seen none from
anybody for the last five or six years, nor have I handed any within
that time.
14,559. What was the purpose of these lists?-It was simply for
the purpose, if possible, of procuring payment of the balance due,
or of ascertaining where the man was employed. The list gave us
a sort of idea where he had been in the previous season.
14,560. Was it a list of all the men who were in your debt, and
who had not engaged with you, that you handed to the other
agents?-It was generally a list of about half a dozen men,
whether they engaged or not. It depended upon whether they
were customers.
14,561. But if a man engaged with you, it was quite unnecessary
for you to hand his name in a list to any other agent?-Yes; it was
quite unnecessary then.
14,562. Therefore the list must have contained the names of men
who had not engaged with you?-Yes.
14,563. At what period were these lists made out?-About the
spring, or some time during the season, prior to the vessels
returning from the Arctic regions.
14,564. Have you ever handed lists of that kind to Mr. Leask or to
any of his people?-Yes, when Mr. Tulloch was a clerk to him,
but never since the regulations of the Board of Trade were issued.
14,565. Have you known any case of a man being paid his wages
before the superintendent, and leaving to hand back a large
proportion of them to the agent in settlement of his account?-
Yes. If he was an honest man, he would come down and settle his
account, whatever it was.
14,566. May it have happened in many cases that he had to hand
back the whole or a considerable portion of his earnings in that
way?-Yes; in the case of a young lad whose earnings were small,
his account might amount to the whole.
14,567. Your books, I have no doubt, would show many cases of
that kind?-Yes, many cases.
14,568. Did you cease to engage young hands to the same extent
as formerly, in consequence of the regulations of the Board of
Trade?-Yes. That is the sole reason why so few young hands are
engaged now.
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, sen. recalled.
14,569. Have you examined your books for January 1868?-Yes.
14,570. Did you find any entry there of a sale of meal to Thomas
Hutchison, Skerries, or to his father?-No; there is no entry of a
sale of meal in that month.
14,571. Did you find the price at which your meal was being sold
in the following month?-Yes.
14,572. You have no entries to show the price during January?-I
cannot find any.
14,573. At what price was it being sold in February 1868?-At
52s. That is the price I charged; but I find the price was rising
that year, because in the following month again it was charged 1s.
higher; and it is quite possible that I would sell a sack at 50s. in
January.
14,574. Is it possible you may have sold a sack of meal without it
being entered in your books at all?-Yes; we frequently do that. If
the cash is paid down we don't make any entry of it.
14,575. The price of 52s. in February was the credit price?-Yes.
14,576. So that, if a man were buying it over the counter, he would
probably get it 1s. cheaper, paying for it at the time?-Yes. We
usually give it 1s. cheaper when paid for at the time, than when we
give two or three months' credit.
14,577. Do you do an extensive business in meal?-Yes.
14,578. Is there much difference in the price of the meal sold in
Shetland, according to the quality of it?-There is a considerable
difference in the prices of flour.
14,579. But is the meal generally about the same quality?-Much
about the same.
14,580. Is there a difference between south-country meal and
Orkney meal and Shetland meal?-There is no Shetland meal
sold. We never get any to buy; at least very little.
14,581. I have seen one or two entries of Shetland meal in country
places: would it be sold much lower than south-country meal?-
Yes, very much lower.
14,582. But it is not an ordinary article of commerce in the
country?-No. There are very few who deal in it.
14,583. In comparing the books of different merchants selling
meal throughout the country, would it, in your opinion, be fair to
assume that a merchant in a country district was selling the same
quality of meal that you sell in Lerwick?-Yes. I think they would
be selling the same quality. There may be different qualities of
meal, but I think they all keep the same qualities. For instance we
keep three kinds of flour.
14,584. That is in flour, but in meal is it usual in Shetland to keep
more than one quality?-I think not.
[Page 366]
14,585. You keep only one quality of meal?-Yes.
14,586. And you are inclined to believe that merchants in other
parts of Shetland will generally be selling the same quality?-I
think so. Of course it must be a little dearer in the country, but I
have heard of prices being charged, at which I was a little
surprised.
14,587. Did you at one time give a note of the prices of meal to a
man, Henry Gilbertson?-I was inquiring at my clerk about that,
and I found that he did it. Of course he would give the prices
which he knew, and which he would find in my book. I may
mention that the prices of meal differ very much in one year.
14,588. But probably not within one month, unless there is a
sudden rise?-No; not unless there is a sudden rise or a sudden
fall. I generally consider that we should charge as little for meal
as we can, so that the poor people may get it at as low a price as
possible; and we take a less profit on it than on other goods.
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, JOHN LEISK, examined.
14,589. You are a partner of the firm of Leisk & Sandison,
merchants and shipping agents, Lerwick?-I am.
14,590. I understand you were previously in the employment of
Mr. George Reid Tait, who has now retired from business?-Yes;
I had been in his employment since 1862.
14,591. Were you in any other business of the same kind
before?-No; I entered business then for the first time.
14,592. Have you heard the evidence which has been given by Mr.
Tait?-Yes.
14,593. Do you agree generally with him in the account he has
given of the way in which seamen have been discharged and had
their wages paid?-Yes. I think it was generally correct.
14,594. Have you been in the habit of going up and paying wages
at the Custom House?-I generally went with the men there.
14,595. Is it the custom now to hand them over their wages in
cash, deducting only the sums which they have got for the
month's advance, the allotment money, and the captain's account
for stores?-During the last year, 1871, we only deducted the
captain's stores and the first month's advance.
14,596. Were there no allotments?-The men had allotments but
we did not deduct them. We were entitled to do so; but I found it
simpler not to deduct them, and trust to the men refunding.
14,597. Then the allotments were not entered in the accounts of
wages at all?-No.
14,598. Why did you not enter an allotment which the man had
really drawn?-Our reason for not doing so was that in some
cases they had not received the allotment in full, and they did
not understand the accounts very well. In fact we found they
understood them much better when they saw the full amount of
their wages and were told the amount of advances. It was less
trouble to us, and we got on better with the men by doing so.
14,599. Did you not include the allotment in the settlement with
the men at the Custom House because it was involved in their
accounting with you?-Yes; it became involved with that.
14,600. Had the allotment notes in 1871 been taken in name of the
agent?-Very few of them. Perhaps in one or two cases they were,
but not more.
14,601. Had they generally been left in his hands?-Yes,
generally.
14,602. When not taken in his name, but left in his hands, in
whose name were they made out?-Generally in name of their
wives or some of their relations.
14,603. Had you found that the wives had come to get
advances?-Yes, generally they had.
14,604. But not to the full extent of the allotment money?-
Sometimes, and in other cases they did not. In Lerwick they
always got supplies to the full extent, but in the country they
did not.
14,605. In what way did they get supplies?-Chiefly in money.
14,606. But in the country they did not take money to the full
extent of the allotment note?-Sometimes they did. In fact the
allotments were generally paid in cash.
14,607. Was it usual for the wives only to take it as they wanted it,
and not to draw the full amount of allotment money due at any one
time?-They generally had it divided in four; and they came for it
weekly, instead of monthly-the allotment note being payable
monthly.
14,608. Was it in consequence of that practice of drawing upon the
allotment money that you found it more convenient not to put it
into the account of wages?-Yes.
14,609. If it had been drawn at monthly intervals the account
would have been simpler?-It would.
14,610. And it might have been entered in the account of wages
without any trouble?-Yes.
14,611. Why was it not paid over to the women monthly?-They
generally wanted money before it was due. It is only due two
months after the vessel has left; and they required money before
that time and generally got it.
14,612. When the two months had expired, did you not settle
accounts with them, so as to clear off all that was due?-In some
cases we did. When they were drawing upon us regularly we did
so, but we did not make a practice of doing so.
14,613. I suppose you were supplying them with goods at the time
as they wanted them?-If they wanted goods we supplied them,
but we never asked them to take them.
14,614. Neither did you ask them to take the full amount of their
allotment money when it was due?-No.
14,615. Have you since 1862 been in the habit of settling the
accounts with seamen engaged in the whaling trade?-Only
since the new regulations in 1867.
14,616. Since then has it generally been you who have gone up to
the Custom House for Mr. Tait?-Yes, almost invariably, except
when I was away.
14,617. Since 1867 has the deduction for your account ever been
made in settling at the Custom House-Never since 1868. There
was an order issued by the Board of Trade in 1867, but it was not
very complete, and there were fuller regulations issued in 1868.
14,618. But the system was altered in 1867?-Yes. There was
nothing to prevent us from including supplies for the men in the
captain's store-book previous to 1868; but the new regulations
prevented that, and we never did it afterwards.
14,619. Then it was only in 1867 that any entries were made in the
captain's store-book?-Yes, by us. There was a clause about that
in the regulations of 1868 which was not in the regulations of
1867.
14,620. Have you ever read over to the men the account of their
transactions with you before going up to settle at the Custom
House?-We generally read it over when they come to pay it.
14,621. Is it ever done before they go to the Custom House?-If
they wish it, it is done but we never volunteer to do it.
14,622. Has there been any case since 1868 in which settlement
of your account has been made or proposed at the Custom
House?-I don't remember one. I know it was never allowed by
the superintendent. He always counted the money, in every case
since 1868.
14,623. Do you know how it was done in the case of other
agents?-I don't know.
14,624. Did you hear the evidence of Mr. Tulloch to the effect that
up to 1870 he had only paid the cash balance due to the man after
deduction of his account, and that the superintendent had not taken
care to see that the whole amount was paid, except the legal [Page
367] deductions?-Yes. I understood that that had been allowed
in Mr. Tulloch's case, but it was not allowed in ours.
14,625. Had you been expressly debarred from doing so by the
superintendent?-Yes.
14,626. Was that done on any occasion when you were about to
settle your own account there?-No. We never tried that; but he
has repeatedly counted the money, perhaps not every man's, but
that of two or three, to see that it was complete.
14,627. Has that been done since 1868?-Yes, always since 1868.
14,628. Do the men universally come down to your shop to settle
their accounts after receiving the money?-Yes, I think invariably.
I only remember one case in which a man failed to do so. Perhaps
there has been one case more, but I don't think it.
14,629. Who was the man whose case you remember?-John
Henderson, Yell.
14,630. Have you had occasion to remind the men that they ought
to come down and pay their accounts?-No; we do not remind
them of it, but we always explain the account of wages as we hand
it to each man.
14,631. Is that explanation made in the Custom House?-No; we
explain it previously. The man is supposed to be satisfied with it
before he goes to the Custom House.
14,632. When making that explanation, do you also tell them that
they are bound to come and pay their account for furnishings to
you?-We do not tell them so. We tell them that our account is
not included in the account of wages, and has to be paid simply
when they get their money.
14,633. And the men have always come down without being told,
and have paid their accounts at your shop?-Yes. They generally
leave the Shipping Office one by one as they are paid, and come
down to the shop, sometimes straight, and sometimes they do not
appear for a long time afterwards. We never look after them, but
just trust to their coming.
14,634. I suppose the amount of your account for outfit and
furnishings sometimes exceeds the amount of wages and
oil-money due; at least in the case of young hands?-In the case
of young hands only; and as rule, in their case it does so. It is a
very exceptional thing in the case of older hands. The young
hands have less clothes to start with, and they require larger
outfit, and their wages are smaller.
14,635. Do young hands invariably come back to you in the second
year to get an engagement?-Not invariably.
14,636. What do they do in that case?-I don't know what
becomes of them. Perhaps they go to some other fishing, or
engage with some other agent.
14,637. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining his
outfit from another shop than that of the agent by whom he has
been engaged?-I don't know of any.
14,638. Have you known any case of a young hand obtaining what
he wanted for his second or third voyage from another shop than
that of the agent who engaged him?-No, I have not been aware of
it. If he had money to get at the end of the voyage, he possibly
bought what he wanted elsewhere. I don't know of such a case,
but it may have happened.
14,639. Was there a correspondence between Mr. Tait and the
superintendent hereabout the system of paying seamen at the
Custom House within the last three or four years?-There was
some correspondence between them in the beginning of 1871.
14,640. Was that after the publication of Mr. Hamilton's report?-
Yes.
14,641. How did that correspondence originate?-I think it
originated from some document that came down for explanation
from the Board of Trade through the shipowners in Dundee. Mr.
Tait sent it up to the Shipping Office here, and asked what was
complained of in discharging the seamen.
14,642. Did he get an answer?-The correspondence was carried
on between Mr. Tait and Mr. Gatherer. I was not concerned in it.
14,643. Had you any interviews with Mr. Gatherer on the
subject?-Yes, one. I carried up the document to him which
had come from the Board of Trade and conveyed a message to
him from Mr. Tait asking what was complained of, as we did not
know of anything wrong. He refused to give me an explanation,
saying at first that he knew nothing about it. I insisted that there
must have been some complaint from him or from this quarter, but
he still refused to give me any explanation of it, and I got none.
14,644. Did the correspondence follow upon that interview which
you had with him?-Yes.
14,645. Was any explanation obtained in the correspondence?-I
am not conversant with the correspondence, and I cannot answer
that question.
14,646. Are you engaged in any other branch of the fishing
business except the agency for the whaling vessels?-No.
With regard to the Shipwrecked Fishermen's Society, I heard
Mr. Jamieson's evidence upon that point, and I would like to
add, that a man who is wrecked has the option of applying through
any agent that he may choose, and is not bound in any way to
apply through the man who has sold him his ticket.
14,647. What is the practice in cases of that sort?-The men
generally apply through the agent nearest to them.
14,648. Have you known any cases in which men or widows have
applied through others than the agent who sold them the ticket, in
order that they might obtain money instead of being paid in
goods?-I did not know that that was their reason, but it might
have been.
14,649. In such cases as those to which I have referred, have they
generally asked for money?-They have generally got the money,
so far as I know.
14,650. But you are not acquainted with any case in which that has
been assigned as the reason for applying to a different agent?-
No; I never heard it. They would likely apply to the agent they
were best acquainted with, or who lived nearest to them. There
are five agents in Lerwick, one of whom is the fishery officer, who
is not connected with trade in any way, so far as I am aware.
14,651. Is there anything further you wish to say?-With regard to
the time for settling with the men, we generally, as soon as we
can get their accounts ready, fix a day for them to appear at the
Shipping Office, and we settle then with as many as make their
appearance.
14,652. You do not settle with the men on landing?-When the
men land, we fix a day for settling with them, and as many men
as appear on that day get their wages then, and the rest get them
when they call.
14,653. But if you see the men when they land, in order to fix the
day with them, why is it that you cannot [be] there and then settle
with them?-Because we cannot get the accounts ready. We
require some time to make up the accounts of wages, and then they
have to get discharges, which take them fully as much time as the
accounts. There is a great deal of writing to be done in that; they
are all made out in duplicate.
14,654. Do you mean that your own shop accounts have to be
made up?-No, our own shop accounts have all been made up
long before; it is only the accounts of wages that have to be made
up at that time.
14,655. Have they to be made out in duplicate?-No; only the
discharges.
14,656. Are not the whole crew discharged in one document?-
That is the release; but each man besides has to get a separate
discharge, and a certificate of character and ability and conduct.
14,657. Do you ever settle accounts of wages with the men before
your own shop accounts are made out and balanced?-Never. We
always make out our shop accounts shortly after the vessel sails.
14,658. But you may be giving supplies to the families all the time
when the vessel is away?-Yes; but it is very easy to add that. It is
always posted up, and can be added to the account at any time. I
now produce the store-book of the 'Tay' in order to show you
[Page 368] the form in which we understand it has to be kept in
order to comply with the regulations.
14,659. Is that book kept by the captain?-Yes, We generally
furnish a book for the purpose. The captains are not very careful
about that, and we have had a great deal of annoyance with the
Shipping Office in consequence.
14,660. Is there a separate store-book, kept in these steamers for
the Shetland men?-Yes. The entries are filled in by the captain,
and signed by him and each man; but sometimes they are not very
particular in getting them signed, and objections have been made
to receiving them at the Shipping Office in consequence.
14,661. Who is G.R.?-That is the signature of one of the clerks in
the Shipping Office. That book will show the dates on which the
men have been paid. The vessel arrived on Sunday 14th May, and
we fixed the 17th as the day of settlement, when a few men made
their appearance. There are three days allowed by the Merchant
Shipping Act for settlement.
14,662. Do you think that is too short a period to enable you to
make out all these accounts?-Three days are plenty of time. That
settlement was made within the three days. The vessel arrived on
the Sunday, which of course does not count, and we had Monday
and Tuesday for making out the accounts. The Monday was a mail
day, and we put them off until Tuesday. We employed ourselves
making them out on that day, and appointed the men to meet us at
the Shipping Office, at ten o'clock on the Wednesday morning,
and you will see how many men made their appearance out of a
crew of fifty men.
14,663. How many of them did so?-I have not counted them
over, but the dates are all there when the men were settled with,
with the exception of one man, John Robertson, Yell, who has not
made his appearance yet. Mr. Tait sent him a verbal message,
requesting him to come down and get his wages, but he has not
attended to it.
14,664. I see that one of these men was settled with on 15th
May, being the day after the vessel arrived?-That has been an
exceptional case. The man had probably been anxious to get
away, but I don't remember.
14,665. I also see that a number of them did come forward on the
17th, or within a few days after it?-Yes. They came just when it
suited them. I think there were only about a dozen who came on
the 17th out of the fifty.
14,666. How soon were they all cleared off, except the one man
who has not come yet?-I could not answer that question without
referring to the book, but most of them would be within a month.
There are always a few exceptional cases in every ship, of men
who either do not require the money, or who have something
which prevents them from coming.
14,667. Had you ever got a ship cleared off so rapidly before?-
Frequently.
14,668. But not before 1871?-Yes; in 1870 and 1869 we got
them settled with as rapidly. The settlements are never put off by
the agents, but the men may stay away as long as they like of their
own free will.
14,669. I suppose the agent seldom continues to furnish supplies
after the men have returned from their whaling voyage?-They
don't get any supplies afterwards, as a rule.
14,670. Is there anything more you wish to say?-There are some
parts of Mr. Hamilton's report which I think I ought to notice.
14,671. Have you heard any part of the evidence of Mr. Robertson
or Mr. Jamieson with regard to that report?-I heard a part of
Mr. Jamieson's evidence this morning, but I did not hear Mr.
Robertson's. Mr. Hamilton says, 'Any man who carried his
custom to any other shop than to that of the agent employing him,
would run the risk of being a marked man.' That is incorrect, so
far as my experience goes.
14,672. Have you known any case of a man who did carry his
custom to another shop?-Yes, I have known several cases of that
kind, but I could not name them. There have been men who had
money in their possession at the time of engaging, who did not
purchase their outfit from us.
14,673. Would there be one in 1870 of all the men engaged by
you?-I could not say; but I have known some of the men who
purchased their outfit from us for cash at the time of engaging
and who had no accounts whatever.
14,674. Were any lists exchanged of these men?-Never, to my
knowledge.
14,675. The only lists you know of were those which related to
men in your debt who had not paid up this debt?-Yes, and that
was only previous to 1867.
14,676. Have there been no such lists exchanged since then?-Not
that I remember.
14,677. Have you verbally mentioned the names of such men to
other agents, and made inquiries about them since 1867?-I don't
remember any particular case.
14,678. May you have done so?-Yes.
14,679. And many such inquiries have been made at you?-It is
possible. I don't remember of it being done, but I would not say
that it had.
14,680. Does it happen in your experience that green hands have
generally to hand back the whole of their earnings to the agent?-
Green hands frequently do so, where their wages are low.
14,681. And they may perhaps remain still in the agent's debt?-
Possibly in some cases they do, but it is the interest of the agent
now to have as few green hands as possible.
14,682. Was that his interest before 1867?-Not so much as it is
now. Mr. Hamilton also says that it is the interest of the agent to
delay the settlement until he gets the men in debt to him again.
That is not the fact.
14,683. Do you mean that it is not the fact that it is his interest to
do so?-It is not his interest; and it is not the fact that he does it, to
my knowledge.
14,684. Is it not the interest of the agent to get man to take goods
from him?-It is the interest of the agent to sell goods to a man,
but not to get him into his debt.
14,685. But if a man takes goods from the agent, is he not in the
agent's debt?-He does not leave it as debt. When a man gets his
wages, it is the interest of the agent to sell as much goods to him
as possible; but that is a cash transaction over the counter after the
settlement
14,686. Are there many such cash transactions?-A good
many-not so many at the time of settlement; but we see the
men repeatedly after they have been paid.
14,687. Do they come back to you and spend part of the cash they
have got?-Yes. I cannot tell whether it is the same cash or not,
but they do spend cash. We see them almost daily.
14,688. When you have been settling in Mr. Tait's office with the
men who had been at Greenland, was it usual, when they came
down from the Custom House, to ask them if they wanted any
goods?-Sometimes we did that, and sometimes not; but we never
pressed them to take goods.
14,689. But it was not unusual to ask them?-We might ask them
if they required anything, and sometimes they bought something
from us after settlement.
14,690. In that case would it be added to their account at the time,
or would there just be a handing back of the cash to you for the
goods?-Just a handing back of the cash.
14,691. Such purchases are usually made after settlement?-They
are always made after settlement, at least almost invariably; but
occasionally I have seen men purchasing goods and laying them
aside until they got their money, and then paying for them. In that
case the goods were not entered into any book, but were just put
up into a parcel and laid aside for them.
[Page 369]
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Dr. ROBERT COWIE, examined.
14,692. You are a medical practitioner in Lerwick?-I am.
14,693. Are you a native of Shetland?-Yes; a native of Lerwick.
14,694. Have you lived here almost all your life?-Yes; except
when I was south for my education.
14,695. I presume you have had many opportunities of mixing
with all orders of people here in the course of the practice of your
profession, and also previously to some extent?-I have.
14,696. You are acquainted with the fact that a system of barter
prevails very extensively in different parts of the islands?-Yes,
almost universally.
14,697. And that both fish and hosiery are paid for, to a
considerable extent, in that way?-Yes.
14,698. With regard to hosiery, has it come within your own
knowledge that knitters are paid in goods to an extent that is
unwholesome for themselves and for the community?-Yes, in
drapery goods.
14,699. In what way has that been forced upon your attention?-
Sometimes in the discharge of my professional duties, I have
observed that there was an utter disproportion between the
clothing and the food of these knitters. I am no judge as to the
value or quality of the goods, but many of them are clothed in a
very gaudy, showy manner, and in a way quite inconsistent with
their position in life. I have reason to know at the same time that
their food is utterly insufficient. I have known knitting girls, one
might almost say, starving or very nearly, starving, when they were
at the same time very well dressed or dressed in a very showy
manner; and I would give an illustration of that. I remember one
Sunday, between one and two o'clock in the afternoon, being
called in to see a poor man, in Lerwick. He was very ill, and
evidently dying. He asked me if I could prescribe anything that
would relieve him, and I replied that I knew of no medicine that
could really do him good,-that the only thing I could recommend
was some sherry wine and beef tea. His reply was, if it came to
that, it was utterly out of the question, for he had not the means of
getting such luxuries. He told me that all the money they had in
the house was a single shilling, and that they had lived for some
days, as far as I remember, entirely upon tea and bread. A few
minutes after having that conversation with him, I saw the poor
man's daughter-who was his only daughter, so far as I am aware,
and who lived with him-going to church, dressed like a fine lady.
That struck me as being a very deplorable state of matters. Here
were a family who were on the verge of starvation, and unable to
get medical comforts for their dying parent, and yet the daughter,
who was a knitter, was I might almost say magnificently dressed.
14,700. Is that the strongest and most striking instance of the kind
that has come under your notice?-I think it is, in that form.
14,701. Have you seen other instances in which you were led to
believe that the state of things was similar?-Yes, very similar.
On many occasions knitters have consulted me as to their health,
complaining of certain forms of dyspepsia. I inquired as to their
food, and found it was very insufficient, while at the same time
they were well dressed, at least apparently well dressed. But I
would remark as to their dress, that I have reason to believe that
the dress which the knitting girls in Lerwick and girls of the lower
orders all over Shetland wear is not adapted to the climate. There
is too much cotton in it; it is too thin, and it is insufficient to
protect them from the inclemency of the weather. In former times
in Shetland a great deal of the clothing worn by the females was
home-made: it consisted of woollen garments, which were much
better adapted to the climate.
14,702. Is it not the case that in the country districts the women
still make the greater part of their own clothing?-I suppose
they do; but what I intended to refer to just now was their inside
clothing. I think there is too much cotton worn now, and not
sufficient warm worsted clothing.
14,703. Then the worsted underclothing which the Shetland
women make is entirely for the market, not for their own use?-
I fear they sell it and buy cotton underclothing instead. I believe
the disproportion, as I may term it, which exists between the food
and the clothing of these knitters is chiefly, if not entirely, due to
the system of truck by which they are paid.
14,704. Do you refer to the difficulty which they have in getting
money for their work?-Yes; and to the fact that they get goods,
chiefly drapery goods, for it.
14,705. Do you think that induces them to take larger quantity of
dress than they really need?-I think so.
14,706. But at the same time you say that they do not have a
sufficient amount of good underclothing?-Yes. I do not think
they have a sufficient amount of good, warm, substantial
underclothing for the climate in which they live.
14,707. Might they not get that if they required it in return for their
work?-I suppose they might, but the fact is that they very seldom
have it. They rather prefer to take showy outside clothing.
14,708. If women are reduced to distress for food, but yet have a
considerable supply of handsome clothing, would you not suppose
it natural that they should have recourse to the pawnbroker's shop
in winter, or when they were in straits?-I would, but I am not
quite sure if there is a pawnbroker's shop here. There is a sort of
pawn in the town, but I don't think it is much resorted to. I have
no doubt, if they were in a large city, they would resort to the
pawnbroker's; but pawnbroking is practically unknown here. The
people, some way or other, have not got into the way of it.
14,709. Have you known any cases in which women, in a state of
distress for food, have sold their clothes to private individuals for
it, or have endeavoured to do so?-I am aware that there are one
or more old women employed, either regularly or occasionally, in
going round the houses and hawking clothes which had been
obtained by knitters for their goods. On one occasion I met in with
one of these women. I was seeing a patient in the house of one of
the lower orders, and the woman came in with some article of
children's clothing to sell. I inquired how she had got it, and I was
told that she was hawking it for some person who had got it for
knitting goods.
14,710. Then she had not bought it, but was selling it as the agent
of another person?-Yes. She was selling it, as I understood, as
the agent of the knitter.
14,711. Have you had opportunities of obtaining any knowledge
with regard to the amount of immorality which prevails in
Lerwick?-I have heard, and I have reason to believe, that it
prevails to a very considerable extent; but I have had no means
of obtaining any accurate knowledge on the subject.
14,712. Are you aware whether the amount of professional
prostitution is greater in Lerwick than in other places of the
same size?-I am not very well acquainted with small towns
similar to Lerwick; there are only one or two small towns that I
know well. I am better acquainted with large cities, such as
Edinburgh and Aberdeen; but I scarcely think that in Lerwick
there is a greater amount of professionals prostitution, in
proportion to the size of the place, than there would be in a
seaport town of a similar size.
14,713. Would you say there was a larger amount of occasional
prostitution?-I believe there is. I don't think I could prove it,
but I have good reason to believe so.
14,714. Is that from knowledge which you have obtained in
the discharge of your professional duties, or is it from general
observation?-It is partly from hearsay, and partly from general
observation.
14,715. Can you ascribe that in any degree to the system of barter
which prevails?-I think it may to a large extent be accounted for
by that system; because the knitters, I believe, are insufficiently
supplied with food, and they are supplied with plenty of handsome
clothing. They are thus led to walk about the streets good deal,
and are in that way led into evil courses.
[Page 370]
14,716. Is that an opinion which you have entertained for some
time?-Yes. I think it is to be expected in the ordinary course of
events, that if women, have insufficient food and plenty of showy
clothing, they will be more apt to go astray than others who have
comfortable homes, and plenty of food and clothing in keeping
with their position in life.
14,717. You are aware, I presume, that statistics show the amount
of illegitimacy in Shetland to be less than it is in many parts of
Scotland?-I am aware of that.
14,718. Is not that inconsistent to some extent, or apparently
inconsistent, with the opinion you have expressed about the state
of morals in Lerwick?-It is apparently inconsistent; but I am
afraid that in Shetland we get credit for a higher state of morality
than we are entitled to, in the country districts.
14,719. Do you mean that the system of registration here is not
efficient?-I mean merely that the Registrar General's returns do
not always show that illegitimacy corresponds with immorality.
14,720. Is that in consequence of the marriages being celebrated
at such times as show the existence of what clergymen call
antenuptial fornication?-It is partly in consequence of that,
but not altogether.
14,721. Then is it possible to reconcile these statistics entirely
with the prevalence of an excessive amount of immorality?-I
have heard attempts to explain it, but I don't know if they were
satisfactory. However, it is such a delicate matter that I would
rather not enter further into it.
14,722. Have you no satisfactory explanation to give on the
subject?-No.
14,723. Has it fallen within your observation, that the want of
food has had any physical effect upon the women employed in
knitting?-I remember being recently told by a respectable
married woman, who was very well acquainted with the habits of
knitting girls, that many of them enjoyed very good health, and felt
pretty well and vigorous during the first two or three days of the
week, but became languid towards the end of it; and she explained
that circumstance in this way: These girls got an extra supply of
food on the Saturday night, and they walked about a good deal
during the Sunday, which, as it were, recruited them; but towards
the end of the week their supplies got exhausted, and they did not
enjoy much out-door exercise, and therefore became languid.
14,724. How do you account for their obtaining an extra supply
of food on the Saturday night?-They were probably settling
then. Many of them, I may explain, are not mere knitters, but are
otherwise occupied. They are very ready, I believe, to take other
work when they can get it, and many of them live not wholly by
their own exertions, but partly on their parents and friends;
therefore there would be extra supplies of food and groceries
going into the house on the Saturday night, which they had
enjoyed during the first days of the week.
14,725. Have you been aware of cases in which the way of dealing
has led to the formation of imprudent habits on the part of the
women?-I think they are very extravagant as regards dress.
14,726. Do they also expend a great deal of money on what may
be called luxuries in food, rather than upon what is necessary,
when they have money?-I think they do. The lower orders in
Shetland use a very large amount of tea, much more than is good
for them. It is very strong tea, and they take it very frequently
during the day-I think to an unwholesome extent. I think it
injures their health very considerably.
14,727. Is oatmeal still used to a great extent as an article of
diet?-It is used in the country districts, but I think not so much
in Lerwick. Here it is more loaf bread that is used.
14,728. In what form is oatmeal generally used in the houses of the
poorer Shetlanders?-I think it is chiefly in cakes, what would be
called scones in Scotland. I don't think it is so much in porridge,
so far as I am aware.
14,729. Is that the bulk of the diet of a fisherman's family?-That,
and fish and potatoes.
14,730. Don't you think that, taking the Shetlanders as a body,
they are as well off with regard to diet and clothing as any similar
class in Scotland?-I think the peasantry in the country are so, on
the whole. The lower orders in Lerwick differ considerably from
those in the country districts; there are more employments open
to them. I think the people in the country are better fed, on the
whole, than those in Lerwick. They enjoy more fresh air, and are a
better-off class of people, on the whole, than the lower orders here.
14,731. Has any special matter come within your observation
that you think of mentioning with regard to the system of barter
in other trades than hosiery?-Nothing very special. I think the
system of the men being compelled to fish to the landlords or
tacksmen on certain estates is a bad system, and should be
abolished. One of the many evils resulting from it is that very
often men don't know whether they have money or are in debt.
They may think they have means, and at settling time they may
discover they have nothing.
14,732. Would that not happen all the same if the creditor were
a merchant who had no connection with the land?-It might, it
arises from the system of long credits.
14,733. Have you known cases in which a man was under a false
impression as to the balance at his banker's, as one may say?-I
have. The other day a man in the country sent for me to visit his
wife professionally; and on leaving he told me he had not the
means in the house, but that he had sufficient to pay me, and good
deal more, at the merchant's. I afterwards saw the merchant with
whom he dealt, and he told me something similar. He also told me
to send the man's account to him, which I did; but a few weeks
afterwards the merchant wrote me that he had been mistaken,-
that he found, instead of the man having means in his hands, that
he was in debt, and he had had to advance him his rent, and that I
could not get my account paid in the meantime; but that he would
do his best to get it for me at a future time.
14,734. Is it a common thing to have accounts paid in that way
through the merchant?-Very common.
14,735. The merchant, in short, appears in many cases to transact
the whole of a man's business affairs?-Yes; he appears to pay his
rent very often, and to transact other business for him.
14,736. He pays accounts for him of all sorts?-Yes.
14,737. So that the man may know nothing at all of his money
affairs?-He may know little or nothing.
14,738. Do you speak of that as being a general thing within your
own knowledge?-Yes.
14,739. Have you formed any opinion as to the effect of that
system of dependence upon the merchant upon the character of
the people generally?-Yes; they are deficient in that sturdy
independence, if I may so express it, which characterizes the
peasantry throughout the rest of Scotland. The system fosters a
dependent, time-serving, deceitful disposition, and it cripples
enterprise.
14,740. Don't you find at the same time that the people are
generally very well able to take care of themselves in any ordinary
transaction? They have intelligence sufficient?-Yes; they are
sharp enough. The Shetland peasantry possess very considerable
intelligence; but there is in them a want of proper independence.
14,741. Do you mean that the position in which they are develops
a kind of cunning rather than acuteness or cleverness?-Yes; it
fosters a sort of low cunning. The system having been continued,
one might almost say, for centuries has fostered that element in
their character.
14,742. That you represent as being the principal defect in the
Shetland character?-It is one of the principal defects.
14,743. In other respects, do you not think they are a very superior
class to the ordinary run of peasantry in Scotland?-They are
careful and intelligent, and they are [Page 371] pretty well-bred.
They have a good deal of the <suaviter in modo>, more so than
the most of peasants but there is that want of proper independence
amongst them which I have mentioned, and they are of a very
conservative disposition. I mean by that, that there is a want of
desire to better themselves; for instance, to improve their houses,
or to produce better crops, or to educate their families. There is a
want of proper ambition among them; they are content to remain
very much as they are.
14,744. Do you mean to represent that as being the effect of the
system of barter which prevails?-I think it is partly the result of
the system of barter, and partly of the short leases which are given
of the land, and the want of any encouragement to improve their
land and houses.
14,745. As a rule, the houses in Shetland are still in a very
defective condition?-Very much so indeed. As far as we can
see, they are in the same condition as they have been for centuries.
14,746. Are there many districts in the country where the houses
still consist of a single room and have no chimney?-There are a
good many instances in which they want chimneys, but they have
generally two apartments-a but and a ben end, as it is called.
14,747. In such houses how is an exit furnished for the smoke?-
Just through holes in the roof called 'lums;' but I am glad to
observe a disposition to correct that in some districts. In many
houses lately I have noticed that they have built wooden chimneys,
and these improve the houses very much.
14,748. That has been so in Unst; but perhaps your professional
duties don't take you so far?-I have not been in Unst for some
years.
14,749. But in the course of your professional visits you have to
travel over the whole extent of the mainland?-Yes, over the most
of it.
14,750. Formerly, I understand, glazed windows were very rare in
Shetland?-Very rare.
14,751. Has there been a change in that respect in recent years?-
Yes, a very considerable change; but in some of the more primitive
districts glazed windows do not exist yet.
14,752. In that case, is the light only admitted by the door?-Only
by the door, and the lum or hole in the roof.
14,753. Are there many houses of that description in Shetland
still?-A good many. I am afraid I could not say accurately how
many.
14,754. Can you say whether these houses are inhabited by people
who are pretty well-to-do as peasants?-Yes; I believe many of
them are pretty well-to-do. They have bits of ground, and good
earnings from their fishing, and are free of debt; and probably
many of them have some means, although that is not known. It
is one peculiarity of their character, that they don't like it to be
known when they have money. I believe many of the men have
considerable means in the banks, but they conceal it.
14,755. Have you had occasion to observe that yourself?-I don't
know that I have had direct occasion to observe it; but I have heard
it, and I believe it to be the fact.
14,756. Is it the current belief among those with whom you
converse, that there are many of the fishermen who have means
of their own, which they conceal from other people?-Yes.
14,757. What would you say was the character of the Shetland
people with regard to sobriety?-I should say that, on the whole,
they are very sober and steady; and I may give an illustration of
that. It is well known that the Shetlanders as seamen are very
highly prized at ports in the south, such as Liverpool and Shields;
and very often a shipmaster, when desiring a crew, will put into
the advertisement 'Shetland men preferred.' I believe the reason
for that preference is not so much that the Shetlanders are better
seamen, although they are as good if not better than others, but
because they are more steady and more to be depended upon. For
instance, I have heard of a shipmaster who, if he had occasion to
land at Quebec or some port in America, and had to take a boat's
crew on shore with him to bring him back again at night, he would
select the Shetland men in his crew for that purpose if there were
any, as he was more sure of having them in waiting for him at the
time he wanted. That is not the result of personal observation, but
it is what I have heard on good authority. I may state further, as a
proof of their sobriety, that I have had occasion to examine it very
large number of Shetland seamen in my capacity as Admiralty
surgeon and agent. I have held that office for five and a half years,
and during that time I have examined probably between 500 and
600 men, and I almost never yet found any traces amongst them of
venereal disease, which is it very common thing amongst seamen.
That is a proof of the steady habits of the Shetland men.
14,758. I understand there are very few public-houses in
Shetland?-Very few. I think there is only one public-house
in the mainland of Shetland outside of Lerwick, but there are
several places holding grocers' licences where the men can buy
liquor.
14,759. Is there anything further you wish to say?-I don't know
that there is anything further, except that I may state it as my
opinion, that it would be better, both for merchants and their
customers, if the barter system were abolished and all transactions
were carried on in cash. I believe the system of long credits is
very injurious to all the parties concerned in it.
14,760. Do you think habits of independence would be fostered
among the Shetland people if they received their wages or other
payments in cash?-Yes; habits of independence and enterprise
would be fostered, and I believe the merchants would be able to
make better use of their money by turning over their capital more
frequently.
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, PETER MOODIE, examined.
14,761. Are you it seaman and fisherman in Lerwick?-I am.
14,762. Have you been for a number of years at the sealing and
whaling?-I have been at it since 1855, exclusive of two years
when I was south.
14,763. Did you always ship from Lerwick?-Always.
14,764. From what agent?-I have been from them all. The first
year I shipped was from Hay & Co., the next from Mr. Leask; and
I have been from Hay & Co., Mr. Leask, and Mr. George Reid Tait
ever since.
14,765. Did you get your outfit from Hay & Co. in 1855?-I did.
I was then a boy, and I was glad to get it from them, because I had
no person to give it to me except the agent.
14,766. Is it usual for green hands to get their outfit from the agent
who employs them?-Yes. I don't think they would get it from
any one else.
14,767. Did you pay off your outfit in the first year?-I did, and I
had something to get.
14,768. Have you always had something to get ever since?-No,
not every year. One year our ship had to come home because the
master had fallen from the mast-head, and I was not clear with the
agent upon voyage; but I shipped again to Davis Straits, and I did
clear it off before the end of the season.
14,769. Do you always get a large quantity of supplies from the
agent you ship with?-If I want it, I do, but if I like, I can get my
first month's advance and my half-pay ticket; only, I find that the
agents can supply me with everything I wish, and I have not taken
a halfpay ticket except in one year, and I sold it as soon as I got it.
I found, however, that I could get my goods as cheap from the
agents as from the grocer's shop; and besides, I found that when I
took my ticket to a grocer he did not like it. But the agents will
allow you to take whatever you want. I have seen me go into an
agent's shop in Lerwick about Christmas, and he would advance
me 10s. or 15s. or £1 if I wanted it, and I paid him up for it,
perhaps in the course of the [Page 372] next year; whereas I don't
think many of the grocers would have advanced me one penny.
14,770. Don't you think your wife could have got her goods
cheaper if she had had the money to pay for them?-No. I have
never found that I could get them any cheaper. I have had
groceries from a grocer's shop, and I have had the same things
from agents, and I have found them to be all the same price.
14,771. It was the practice some years settle your accounts at the
agent's shop, just in the same way that a fisherman settles with his
curer at the end of the season?-Yes, we did that regularly.
14,772. For some years back, however, you have had your wages
paid to you at the Custom House?-Yes.
14,773. Have you had them paid without any deduction except
your advance?-Yes, except that and the ship's bill. If I had taken
any goods from the agent before I went out, of course I got my
money, and I could go and pay him when I wanted. He did not
take it from me at the Custom House.
14,774. Did the agent ever seek to deduct the amount of his
account at the Custom House?-Never from me. I cannot
speak for anybody but myself.
14,775. Did you never see it attempted?-I did one year, but that
was before they understood exactly how it was to be done. They
had made out our account of wages so that the amount of their
account was taken off; but as soon as we came to the Shipping
Office, the shipping master told the agent that it was not to be
done in that way. He altered our accounts of wages so that the
money was all given to us, and then we went back to the agent's
shop and paid him.
14,776. Was that in 1867 or 1868?-I don't remember which it
was. I think it was in 1867.
14,777. Has any deduction of that sort been made since?-Never
from me.
14,778. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House
to the agent's office and settle your account with him?-I
generally do so, if I think the agent is in his office; but if he is
settling with some others besides, and has to wait with them at the
Custom House, I may wait until the next day and then go along
and settle it.
14,779. Do you generally go down from the Custom House in
company with the agent or the clerk who has been paying you?-
Generally I do. I think it is as well to pay my debt as long as I am
able, rather than to spend the money, and perhaps not be able to
pay afterwards.
14,780. Have you any difficulty in getting an engagement in a
good ship?-I have never had any difficulty in getting an
engagement from any of the agents I applied to, either from Hay
& Co. or Mr Leask or Mr Tait. If I told them I wished to go in
such a ship, they generally gave me a chance, if I was pleased
with the wages; and if the wages were low and I would not go, I
generally got an engagement in some other ship.
14,781. Did you ever get your outfit or supplies from some other
agent than the one you engaged with?-No. I never did that,
because I found I could have no advantage by it. I have found the
system better here than ever I did in the south, because here, if I
got my first month's advance, I could get a half-pay ticket along
with it; but in the south when I shipped, I got a month's advance,
but very seldom a half-pay ticket. In some places I have paid 2s.
in the pound, and sometimes 3s. in the pound, for cashing my note;
while here the agents don't charge any money for cashing an
advance note at all. In Glasgow I have paid 2s., and in the Sailors'
Home I have paid 1s. 6d. for that, but here I pay nothing to the
agents; at least I have never done it.
14,782. When you take an advance note, do you generally cash
it?-Yes, here I do.
14,783. Are you not content to take it out in advances of goods?-
If I require it I take it; and if not, I do not. They never asked me to
take it in that way. I have come into the office, and I said I wanted
my advance note cashed. It is not supposed to be paid until after
the ship leaves, but generally the practice with us has been to come
down as soon as soon as we have finished signing and ask to get it
cashed. Perhaps there is not enough money in the office at the
time, and they will give us £1, and say that we will get the rest
afterwards. However, I may be willing to take it until I can get it
all, and I came back again and get it all.
14,784. When you come down to settle you account at the office,
are you usually asked if you want any more goods?-When you
come down to settle you account at the office, are you usually
asked if you want any more goods?-I was never asked to go and
settle my account and to take more goods; but after the money was
laid down before me, and I went into the shop to settle any small
account I had, they would say, 'Do you want any clothes, Peter?',
and I would say 'No;' and there would be no more about it.
14,785. How do you do about the last payment of oil-money? Is it
paid at the Custom House?-Generally it is. It has been paid to
me for the last two years; but last year it was not, because I was
away when it was due. They asked me if I wished to go to the
Custom House with it, and I said I did not; that it was all the same
to me if I got the money when I cleared the ship's book.
14,786. Have you sometimes had a large sum to get for a last
payment of oil-money?-Yes. One year I got about £5 for it
from Mr Leask.
14,787. Do you take payment of that when it becomes due, or is
it not paid to you usually until you go to get engaged for the next
year's voyage?-I have never waited so long for it as the next
year's voyage.
14,788. When you get your second payment of oil-money, is it
just put into your hand, even although you have been running an
account?-Yes. If I have been running an account they lay down
the money to me, and then they tell me what my account is, and
pay it.
14,789. Do you continue to run an account with the agent after
getting your first payment?-Sometimes I do, but very seldom.
14,790. Do you pay in cash at the time for any supplies you get
after you have received your first payment?-Yes; whatever I get
I pay for them at the time.
14,791. Do you deal in any particular place for them?-Yes; in R.
& C. Robertson's.
14,792. You don't deal during winter with the agent who had
engaged you for the voyage?-When I have got an engagement
through a particular agent, I don't think it is right that I should
take the money from him and give it to another; and therefore I
get what I want for the voyage from the agent that I getting money
from.
14,793. But why do you prefer dealing with R. & C. Robertson in
the winter time?-Because Mr. Robertson and I were boys at
school together; and when I had a house of my own, he supplied
me with goods when I wanted them. That was my only reason for
preferring him to any one else.
14,794. But notwithstanding that, you prefer to go to the agent for
the supplies you want, when you are on your voyage?-Yes. I
have tried it both ways. I have tried taking money out, and buying
what I wanted with it, but I did not find that it made any
difference.
14,795. Is there not a sort of understanding among seamen who go
upon Greenland voyages that they are to take their supplies from
the agent who employs them?-I cannot say for anybody but
myself. There may be such an understanding, but I cannot say.
They may perhaps have asked me if I wanted some small things,
and they were there for me if I wanted them; but that was in
addition to my first month's advance, and they ran their risk of
being paid for them.
14,796. But is there not such an understanding among the men,
that they are to get their supplies from the agent who employs
them?-Yes, that is the general understanding among the men; but
the agent does not bind them in any way to take them. They never
did that to me; I don't know what they may have done to others.
14,797. Might the men not stand a chance of not having a good
engagement next year if they took their custom elsewhere?-That
is wherein the agent loses; [Page 373] at least I don't know if they
lose, but they run a chance of losing when the men go off to
another agent, because they have then to lie out of their money. If
they have made advances to the amount of £3 or £4 to a boy who
has only 15s. or 16s. a month, and who will only be out three
months on the voyage, they cannot get their money from him then;
and perhaps they may never get it, because the boy may go upon a
south voyage, and then they lose sight of him. There have been
cases of that kind which have come within my own knowledge. I
was shipwrecked in 1869, and young lad who was along with me
told me he owed 10s. to Mr. Tait. We came back to Shetland
again, but he went south two months afterwards, and I don't know
if Mr. Tait has been paid yet. The boy has not come back to
Shetland again, at any rate.
14,798. But that was not the question I was asking you. What I
asked was, if you did not take your custom to the merchant who
employed you, would you stand a chance of not getting a good
engagement next year?-I have never had any difficulty in that
way. I have got an engagement through Mr. Leask, and taken £3,
2s. out of his shop for a voyage of six weeks and a few days; and I
came back again next year, and got a ship the same as ever. I went
in the same ship again.
14,799. Is there anything more you wish to say?-I went out
for Mr. Tait last year. He has resigned the business now to his
brother-in-law and another, but I have no doubt I shall go back to
the shop and get ship from them; or I could get one from Messrs.
Hay the same as ever, if they had any ships this year.
14,800. Have you ever paid a subscription to the Shipwrecked
Mariners' Fund?-Yes.
14,801. Have you ever got anything out of it?-Yes, twice; both
from Mr. Leask and Mr. Tait.
14,802. Had you much to get?-The first time I had anything to
get was after I had been paying in two years, and I got 30s. when I
came back.
14,803. What did you lose that year?-I lost different things that I
could hardly name.
14,804. Did you get the things replaced?-No.
14,805. Did you get cash for the 30s.?-Yes.
14,806. Was that cash put into your account?-No, I got the
money paid down to me.
14,807. Was it paid down in the same way the next time?-Yes.
At that time I got it from Mr. Leask. In fact I got it from him
before the money was actually payable, because I was going south.
14,808. When was that?-In 1864. I was wrecked in the 'Emma,'
and I wished to get south; but I had not money enough, and I went
to Mr. Leask, and he advanced it to me.
14,809. How much does your outfit generally cost at the beginning
of the year?-I could not exactly say. Some years it will be more,
and some less. There are some of the men who have people that
make things for them, but others have got nobody to do that, and
therefore they have generally more to get from the agents.
14,810. Do you generally lay out £1 or £2 in that way before you
start upon your voyage?-Yes; and sometimes £4 or £5.
14,811. Is that an unusual sum?-Yes.
14,812. Who insures the outfit?-The agent generally insures it for
his own advantage, so that if the ship is lost he gets his money.
14,813. But they charge the insurance to you?-Yes, they charge
the insurance to us if we tell him to insure it. For a good many
years I told the agent to insure for me, but I have not lost any ship.
When I did lose a ship I have not been charged for it; at least if I
was, it was not with my knowledge.
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, Daniel Inkster, examined.
14,814. Are you a seaman living in Lerwick?-Yes. I have been
here for the last two years. Before then I lived in the North Isles,
on the property which is now in Mr. Walker's hands.
14,815. Have you been at the sealing and whaling for a number of
years?-Yes. I have been there for the last fifteen years, but not
every year. I was at the ling fishing for about seven years during
that time, at Cullivoe, where Mr. Peter Sandison lives.
14,816. Why did you leave Yell?-I was one of Major Cameron's
tenants, and I was put away by his factor, Mr. Walker. He offered
us leases but of course we knew it was not in our power to take
them.
14,817. Why was that?-Because our farms were so small; and
when we had to take one-fifth of them for rye-grass, that made
them a great deal less. Then the scattald was taken away from
us; but we still had to pay our rent, for all that.
14,818. Were you offered a lease?-Yes; but the lease was all on
his side, and there was nothing on our side at all.
14,819. When you were in Yell, were you bound to fish for any
one?-No. There was no binding at all.
14,820. Where did you get your supplies?-From Mr. Sandison.
We always fished for him, and got our supplies from him. I was
three years under Mr. Walker. During the first two years I paid my
rent, but in the third year we had either to take his lease or go and I
knew that I was not able to do it. He said to me that I would have
to leave; but I did not know where to go, and I had a family to
support. The last year I was on that property I came a little short
of my rent, and I wanted him to wait for it until I came down to
Lerwick; but he said he was not to wait any longer. He asked me
what means I had to give him, and I said I had not much means at
all. I said if he chose to take the crop he might do it, but that I
would be left to starve afterwards. He took the crop at his own
hand, and never put a value upon anything at all; but he told me
that if I was not off the ground by such a time he would put me off.
He went away to the south at that time, and when Candlemas came
round I got a room in Lerwick before he came back. He has done
that to a great many more besides me.
14,821. Then you had to leave because you had not paid your
rent?-He got the corn and potatoes for the rent.
14,822. But you did not give him money; and if you had paid
your rent he would not have taken your crop?-No; but many a
proprietor has to wait for month or a couple of months for that,
and he sometimes does not get it even then.
14,823. Were you not fishing for Mr. Sandison then?-Yes; but
there was a very small fishing that year.
14,824. Had Mr. Sandison paid your rent before?-No; I had paid
it.
14,825. You had not been at the whale fishing for several years
before that?-No; but I have been for the last two years. I have
gone to it since I have been living in Lerwick.
14,826. Whom do you ship with?-For the last two years I have
gone out for Mr. Leask.
14,827. Did you require an outfit when you went two years ago?-
Yes. I got it from Mr. Leask. It cost about £5.
14,828. What were your wages?-£2, 5s.
14,829. Were you both at the sealing and whaling that year?-Yes;
I went both voyages in the same ship.
14,830. Were you due a large account to Mr. Leask at the end of
the year?-About £16 or £17.
14,831. Was that for supplies to your family?-Yes.
14,832. Had you any money to get for your voyage?-Yes. I had
£12 to get in the first year.
14,833. Had you £28 of earnings for the year?-Yes, for the first
and second payments.
14,834. Was that money paid to you at the Custom House?-Yes.
14,835. How much of it?-The whole of it; and then I went down
and paid what I was due at the shop after I had been paid off at the
Custom House.
14,836. Who went down from the Custom House with you?-
There were a good many more than me going [Page 374] down,-
men who had been settled with at the same time.
14,837. Did you all go down together to Mr. Leask's?-Yes.
14,838. Who settled with you there?-Mr. Robertson.
14,839. Did you go down with him?-No. One of Mr. Leask's
men came up to the Custom House and paid us there, and when
we came back Mr. Robertson settled with us at the shop. The
person who settled with us at the Custom House was either
Andrew Jamieson or John Jamieson, I don't remember which.
14,840. Did he not go down to the shop with you?-No.
14,841. Did he say anything to you about going down to the
shop?-No.
14,842. Had you seen Mr. Robertson or any of Mr. Leask's people
before you went up to the Custom House?-Yes, one of them told
us we had to go there, and that he would be there to settle with us.
14,843. Did he tell you anything else?-He did not tell me
anything.
14,844. Had he arranged with you before about meeting him at the
Custom House for the settlement?-Yes, either the night before or
that morning.
14,845. Had he sent for you to tell you about that?-No; we were
waiting there for a settlement.
14,846. Did he tell you at that time how much your account was
with Mr. Leask?-Yes.
14,847. And did he tell you that you would have to pay it when
you got your money?-Yes.
14,848. Accordingly you did pay it when you got your money, as
you had been told?-Yes.
14,849. Did you get an engagement from Mr. Leask in the
following year?-Yes.
14,850. Had you an account with him in the same way then, and
some money to get at the end of the season?-Yes.
14,851. Were you told in the same way that you would be settled
with, and that you would have your account to pay to Mr. Leask
after you got your money?-Yes.
14,852. Did you come down from the Custom House with Mr.
Jamieson then?-I did not.
14,853. You had been told before that you had to go down to the
shop?-Yes.
14,854. And you did go down and pay your money?-Yes.
14,855. Had the rest of the men been told the same thing, that they
were to come down and pay their accounts after receiving their
money at the Custom House?-Yes, all the men who were in town
that day.
14,856. Did you get any of your supplies anywhere else than at Mr.
Leask's?-No; not when I was in his employment.
14,857. Why not?-Because I thought I could get my things just as
cheap from him as I could get them anywhere else; and another
reason was, that if I was short of money I could go and ask him for
a supply, or for a little money; whereas if I had gone to any of the
small groceries in the town they would not have been able to give
me that.
14,858. Where do you get your supplies in the winter time when
you are at home?-We generally take couple of bolls of meal from
Mr. Leask and pay for them, or get an advance of them if no trade
is doing in the town, or if any of us are in bad health.
14,859. Do you sometimes get your supplies elsewhere in
winter?-Generally if we have any money, we can buy them at
the cheapest market. There is no particular place where we go
to.
14,860. Do you sometimes find a cheaper market somewhere
else?-No. Mr. Leask can give an article as cheap as anybody in
Lerwick can do. There is a Mr. Fraser, a grocer in Lerwick, from
whom we got some things in the dead of winter. We take them
from him during the week, and pay him on Saturday night for
them.
14,861. Are his things as good and cheap as Mr. Leask's?-Just
the same. He only charges us the currency.
14,862. Do you employ yourself at any trade during the winter?-I
work at anything I have the chance of, when my health permits
me. If I get the chance of discharging vessels, or doing a day's
work, or anything of that kind, I take it; or sometimes we go to
the fishing in a small boat.
14,863. Do you always subscribe to the Shipwrecked Mariners'
Fund when you go the whale fishing?-Yes. I have been nineteen
years in that Fund.
14,864. Did you ever get anything out of it?-I have got out of it
twice. I was cast away in 1863 at Davis Straits, and I had £2, 15s.
to get then. I got it in cash from Mr. George Reid Tait. The
second time was when I lost a small boat by a storm at sea.
14,865. Were you at the fishing at the time?-No, the boat was
secured, but the water came in and took her away. I applied to
the agent, and he valued the boat, and sent the money to me.
14,866. Were you running an account with the agent at that
time?-No.
14,867. Were you running an account with the agent at the other
time when you got money from the Society?-The first time I was.
I had an account with Mr. Reid Tait then, and I got the money
from him which I had to get from the Society.
14,868. Do you know whether you pay insurance for your outfit
when you get one?-I have done so, but not during the last two
years.
14,869. Why?-Because I always insured so much on the voyage
myself, perhaps upon £7 or £8.
14,870. Why do you do that?-In case the ship is lost, and then of
course we get that paid to us until the insurance is taken off.
14,871. Who do you arrange that with?-With the agent who takes
out the insurance for us-Mr. Leask or any of the agents. They
take 1s. 8d. per £1 for insuring.
14,872. Is that for insuring the ship?-Yes.
14,873. Then it is not the agent's advance to you that is insured?-
Perhaps they insure that themselves, but I don't know whether we
pay for it or not.
14,874. Is the insurance you have mentioned the only one you
pay?-Yes; the only one I pay, to my knowledge.
14,875. Do you get any writing for that insurance?-It has never
been asked.
14,876. Has it ever been offered to you?-No; it never was offered
that I have been aware of, because we always had to go to the ship
and leave here to go south. Therefore I wrote to my wife to go to
the merchant about the insurance.
14,877. Do you not join the ship at Lerwick?-Yes; but we are
landed in Shetland from the sealing, and the vessel goes south and
discharges her oil, and then they send for us to go south and join
the ship there. That has been done during the last two years.
14,878. When you get your wife to insure for you, where does she
go?-She goes to Mr. Leask.
14,879. Do you not know whether Mr. Leask charges you with an
insurance upon your outfit?-No; at least I never was sensible of
it.
14,880. Do you not read over your account when you settle it?-
Yes, but I never observed that in it.
14,881. Is there no sum for insurance charged in it?-Not to my
knowledge; but it may have escaped my notice.
14,882. How does your wife pay for the insurance which you
effect?-I pay for it myself at the end of the voyage.
14,883. Who told you about the insurance first?-Mr. Leask or
some of his people. I don't know any of them in particular; but
of course we have always done it.
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, ARTHUR JOHNSON, examined.
14,884. Are you a tenant and fisherman at Colafirth, near
Ollaberry?-I am.
14,885. Do you go to the ling fishing every year?- [Page 375]
Yes. I was one year a hired boy, and I have been thirty-three years
a sharesman.
14,886. On whose land are you a tenant?-On that of Mr. Gideon
Anderson, Ollaberry. It is let on tack to Mr. John Anderson, his
brother, and to Mr. John Robertson, Lerwick.
14,887. How do you pay your rent?-We pay our rent at Hillswick
to Mr. John Anderson.
14,888. Is that done when you settle for your fish?-We have to go
a day or two after we have settled for our fishing, and pay our rent
to Mr. Anderson. We get a line from the man we have settled with
and go to Mr. Anderson with it, and then he writes us out a receipt
for the rent. We do not get the money to give to him at all.
14,889. Do you settle with Mr. William Irvine at Ollaberry?-Yes.
14,890. Are you bound to sell your fish to him?-He is only the
factor for Messrs. Anderson & Co. We are bound to sell our fish
to them.
14,891. Are you not at liberty to sell your fish to any other person
you please?-Not in the summer time. We have not had liberty to
do so for the last four years.
14,892. How do you know that?-Because Mr. John Anderson has
told us so himself.
14,893. Have you wished to sell your summer fish to any other
person?-Yes. If I was at liberty I could have an advantage by it.
I have cured my own fish for nineteen years.
14,894. What advantage would you have by doing that?-We sell
to more advantage when we are at liberty, but now we get less
from Mr. Anderson than we got before for our salt fish, and we get
from £1 to 30s. per ton less than he paid to other men who were
free men. Last year he paid the free men £22, and he paid me £20,
10s. for salt fish.
14,895. Was it Mr. Irvine who did that?-Yes. He settled
according to Mr. Anderson's order. Mr. Irvine is only the
factor, and keeps the shop.
14,896. Were you not free to sell your cured fish to any person you
pleased?-I did not think it.
14,897. But probably your cured fish were not of such good quality
as those which brought £22?-I would put my character for having
good fish against that of any man, because we attended to the
curing of our fish ourselves. We only had a boy for washing, but
we split and cured them ourselves, and we paid them all the
attention we could. I know that the quality was good, because
those who knew good fish told us so and I also knew it myself.
14,898. But when you got £20, 10s. offered to you, why did you
not take your fish to another market if you thought you could get
a better price for them?-It was not in my power then, because the
fish were in Leith; they had been shipped there.
14,899. Did you deliver your dried fish without knowing what
price you were to get for them?-Yes.
14,900. Why did you do that?-We must do it. We had no cellars
of our own, and we had to put them into Mr. Anderson's cellar.
14,901. Why did you not get the price fixed before you delivered
them?-Because that is not the practice. When we deliver our
fish, they tell us they don't know the price.
14,902. Did you not see the bills of sale after the fish were sold in
Leith?-No, I never see them.
14,903. Might you not have seen them if you had asked for it?-I
never asked for it.
14,904. Then you have no reason to believe that you got less for
your fish than they actually brought when sold in Leith?-I cannot
say what the Leith price was.
14,905. But you could have seen the bills of sale if you had asked
for them?-I do not think I would have been allowed to see the
bills of sale.
14,906. You cannot be sure of that unless you had asked for
them?-No, I cannot be sure of that; but I don't believe they
would have been shown to me.
14,907. Why did you not ask for them?-I don't know.
14,908. Were you afraid to do that?-No, I was not afraid; but it
did not occur to me to do so. I know that last year I was stopped
from selling my fish, and free men were paid 8s. 6d., while I was
only paid 8s. for them.
14,909. Was that for your green fish?-Yes.
14,910. Then what fish were you selling dry?-Ling, tusk, and
cod.
14,911. Were these your winter fish?-No, they were the summer
fish.
14,912. But I thought you were bound to deliver your fish green to
Mr. Anderson?-No. We had been in the practice of salting them
before we delivered them, and we continued to do so until last
year; but he stopped us from salting them then.
14,913. I thought you said you had been bound for four years?-
Yes. It is four years since we were bound to fish for him regularly;
he got the tack then.
14,914. Have you been fishing for Mr. Anderson for these four
years?-Yes; three years we delivered the fish to him salt, and
one year green.
14,915. Then all you were bound to do was to deliver your fish to
him, either salt or green?-Yes.
14,916. You could cure them or not, as you liked?-Yes, for the
first three years; but this year he would not allow us to cure them.
14,917. Was that because the quality of your cured fish was not
good?-The fish were good.
14,918. Did he not assign that to you as the reason?-No. When I
was told not to salt the fish last season, I went to him and asked
him if that was on account of bad fish, and he said, No, he could
not say that it was.
14,919. Did he give you any reason for not allowing you to
continue to cure your own fish?-Very little.
14,920. Did he give any reason at all?-He said that other
fishermen in the neighbourhood were thinking that they might
be allowed to cure their fish as well.
14,921. Do you think fishermen generally can cure their own fish
as well as when they are cured by a factor who gives his whole
time to it?-I think so, provided they would pay a little attention to
it themselves.
14,922. Do you get your supplies at the shop at Ollaberry?-Yes;
or from Mr. Anderson's factor at the fishing station at Hamnavoe.
14,923. Can you get these supplies as cheap at Ollaberry as you
can get them anywhere else?-Yes. He made an arrangement last
year that the meal was to be all one price, whether it was got at the
station or at Ollaberry. We got it a little cheaper by taking it from
Ollaberry the year before; but he made the regulation last year that
it was to be all one price.
14,924. But do you get it as cheap there as you could get it from
any other shop in the country?-No. If we had our money we
could get it a little cheaper from Lerwick, or from other places.
14,925. How do you know that?-Because I buy some things
from Lerwick, such as meal and tea, and I sometimes get the meal
a little cheaper, according as the market there is high or low.
14,926. Have you any pass-books or accounts to show the prices
you pay for the articles you get?-No. I kept a pass-book for a
year or so, but I rather thought the prices were too high, and it
annoyed me to look at it, and so I gave it up.
14,927. Did you think the prices were higher because you had the
pass-book?-No. I thought they were rather too high, at any rate.
14,928. Did it not annoy you quite as much to hear the prices in
your account read over to you?-When my account was read over
at the time when I paid it, I knew that the price was high; but I do
not think there was anything in the account except what I had had.
14,929. Is the price of your meal mentioned to you at the time
when you get it at Ollaberry?-Very seldom.
14,930. Do you ask to know the price?-Sometimes we ask, and
sometimes we do not.
14,931. Does the price vary throughout the season?-[Page 376]
Yes, sometimes it does, according, to the rise and fall in the
market.
14,932. It is not sold at one price all the year round at that shop?-
No.
14,933. Do you buy your own boats at Ollaberry?-I had a boat of
my own until four years ago; since then I have had a hired boat.
The boat hire is £2, 10s. I got my lines ordered for me from the
Glasgow market, because I thought I got them a little cheaper in
that way. 21/4 lb. lines cost me 1s. 11d., including freight and
everything.
14,934. Do you get any 2-lb. lines?-No; but we can get them at
Ollaberry. They charge 2s. for them there. A 21/4 lb. line would be
charged 2s. 3d. there if paid in cash, and 2s. 6d. if marked down to
be paid for by instalments.
14,935. Can you show me any account for the lines you get from
Glasgow?-No; it is five years since got them from there.
14,936. Were the prices you have mentioned as being paid for
lines at Ollaberry the same as you would have paid there five
years ago?-Yes, the price has been the same. The lines I am
using now are the same lines that I got from the market for myself.
14,937. Did you buy a great quantity of them at that time?-I
bought 25 buchts.
14,938. Did you get them for yourself only, or was it to sell to your
neighbours as well?-It was for myself only.
14,939. Is there anything else you wish to say?-With regard to the
fishing, I would like liberty to sell my fish to any man who would
give me the highest price for them, or to cure for myself. We had
some casks for storing salt, and we broke them down, and parted
the staves among the partners to whom they belonged. Then there
was a fish vat which is my own, and it is lying on the beach, and
no man to buy it from me. It has been a loss to me altogether.
14,940. Was that in consequence of the intimation that you were
to fish for your landlord?-Yes, and that I was to stop salting my
fish.
14,941. Can you not get all your supplies at a cheaper shop than
Ollaberry if you choose?-I could get them from other parties
cheaper, but I don't have the money in my hands to get them
cheaper at present.
14,942. Can you not get the money as an advance upon your
fishing?-No. We could get a little, but not to a great extent.
14,943. Could you not get as much as would buy you a boll of
meal?-Yes, but that would not serve for boat for the fishing
season. We would need nearly two sacks.
14,944. Could you not get an advance of money upon your fishing
large enough to buy that in Lerwick?-I don't think it; but there
are other things required besides that. There are tea and sugar, and
various other things that are necessary for the use of the men when
they are at the fishing.
14,945. Do you think you would buy any cheaper if you had the
money to buy these things with yourself, instead of getting them
on credit from the merchant?-Yes, I would be cheaper.
14,946. Would you be any better off if your money was paid to you
fortnightly or monthly?-Yes, if I was at liberty to sell my fish to
any one who would give me the highest price for them; but if I am
bound to give my fish to any particular man, and he gives me no
higher price than he pleases, I would be no better off.
14,947. From whom did the free men you mentioned get 8s. 6d. for
their green fish while you only got 8s?-From Mr. Anderson. That
was at the settlement this year.
14,948. How many free men got that price from him?-There
were four free men in that boat, and two tenants; but the six men
that were in my boat were all tenants.
14,949. Did your boat get 8s. per cwt. for all the fish of the
season?-Yes; and the others got 8s. 6d.
14,950. Did the two men in the other boat who were tenants get 8s.
6d. also?-I think they all got the same.
14,951. Where did the four men who were not tenants come
from?-They live at Colafirth. They bought their boat and lines,
and agreed to pay for them. We asked for 3d. per cwt. extra
because the lines we used were our own, but they would not give
it.
14,952. Do these four men not live on Mr. Anderson's land?-
Two of them live on his land, and two on Busta.
14,953. If two of them live on Anderson's land, how are they
free?-They are not free. They sell their fish to him.
14,954. But you said four of the men were free: where do they
live?-They live at Colafirth, on the property of Mr. Gifford of
Busta.
14,955. Do all the four free men live there?-Yes.
14,956. Was there any reason why they got 6d. more than you,
except that they were free men and lived on the Busta property?-
No; I knew of no other reason.
14,957. Did they not buy their boat and lines?-Yes, they had their
own lines, but the lines we had belonged to ourselves too.
14,958. Was it said that they got a higher price because they had
their own boat and lines?-Yes.
14,959. Did Mr. Irvine say so?-Mr. Irvine did not settle with
these men. It was Mr. John Anderson himself.
14,960. Did he say that he gave them the higher price because the
boat and lines were their own?-Yes.
14,961. He did not say it was because they were free men?-No,
he did not say that; but had they not been free men, I don't think
they would have got it.
14,962. Have any men who live on Mr. Anderson's estate got boats
and lines of their own?-Yes. I think there is one man who has
got a boat and lines.
14,963. Did he get 8s. 6d. too?-I don't know what he got.
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, GILBERT SCOLLAY, recalled.
14,964. I understand you wish to give some additional evidence to
what you gave when you were examined at Brae?-Yes. In the
first place I spoke as if the party I have from Lunnasting parish
was still in my house but it is four months since that party was
removed to another house, at the instance of the Board of Lunacy.
14,965. How many different prices of meal are there at Voe,
according to the weight sold?-A party taking a whole sack will
get it at a less price; when divided and subdivided, the meal rises
in price.
14,966. What is the lowest price just now?-I have not bought any
lately, and I cannot tell; but there has been flour sold lately for
fifteenpence a peck.
14,967. Is there only one price for meal at Vidlin?-Yes; only one
price for the same meal, whether you take it in large or in small
quantities. That has been my experience.
14,968. Have you any statement to make about the rise in price at
Voe according to the southern market?-Yes. I have been told
that Mr. Adie has said that it should rise not only in his cellar, but
in his book too, according to the market in the south. Henry
Manson, post-runner between Voe and Lunna says he heard him
say so.
14,969. But that is not what you know yourself; it is only what
you have heard from other people?-I have heard Mr. Adie say so
myself, that it would rise in price both in his cellar and in his book.
14,970. Do you mean that it rises with the southern market?-Yes;
but at Vidlin it does not rise until the meal that has been bought at
a certain price has been finished. Mr. Sutherland has told me that
a quantity of meal bought in by Mr. Robertson at a certain price
remained at the same price until the last of it was sold, and the
same with the next parcel.
14,971. When you have pass-books at Voe, is the price generally
entered in the pass-book at the time when you get the meal?-No;
it is not entered until [Page 377] settlement, when it is compared
with their book, as my pass-book will show. There are several
quantities of meal in it for which no price is entered.
14,972. Is it entered at settlement at one price for the whole
season, or at different prices?-I cannot tell. If what they say is
true, it is entered at the highest market price if the market has
risen, because they say it rises in their book as well as in their
cellar.
14,973. You have produced several pass-books to me. Is that
[showing] a pass-book of your father's in account with Mr. Adie
at Voe?-Yes.
14,974. Have you carried through some of the transactions for your
father at Mr. Adie's shop?-Yes.
14,975. I see here an entry on April 21, 1868, '24 lbs. meal at 5s.
3d.:' who made that entry?-It was made at the shop, not by me.
14,976. Here [showing] is another entry, 'April 25, one lispund
Indian meal, 5s. 6d.:' who made that?-My father perhaps made
some entries in the book himself when he got things, and when the
pass-book was not sent to the shop.
14,977. Was that entry made by your father?-The entry of 24 lbs.
meal at 5s. 3d. is not by my father. I think the other is by him.
14,978. There is another entry, June 30, of 'Indian meal, 2s.:' who
made that entry?-It is not in my father's writing. It has been
made at Voe.
14,979. There is another entry, 'July 1, one boll Indian meal, 16s.
6d.:' who made that?-It is my father's.
14,980. There is another, 'Dec. 6, Indian meal, 1/2 lisp. 2s.?'-Yes.
14,981. That account has been settled in January 1869, you having
given 21 yards cloth at 3s. 6d.?-Yes.
14,982. Have you any doubt that all the things entered in that
account were got by your father?-No. They were all got and
settled for.
14,983. The next account was settled on March 17, 1870: have you
any doubt that all the things entered before that date were got by
your father at Voe?-No, they were all received.
14,984. On November 25 he got 1/4 gallon oil at 6d.: would that be
sillock oil?-Perhaps it was.
14,985. In that settlement your father is credited with 26 yards
cloth, which comes to £3, 13s. 8d. There is something else that
comes to 1s., being £3, 14s. 8d. due to him, and £2, 19s. 4d. to Mr.
Adie, leaving a balance in your father's favour of 15s. 4d.?-Yes.
14,986. Mr. Adie takes a discount for cash of 1s. 6d.: does that
mean that he charged 1s. 6d. of discount on the 15s. 4d. which he
was to pay to your father?-Yes.
14,987. Why was that?-I don't know; but it was a common thing,
that when he gave cash he gave so much less for the cloth.
14,988. Was it the rule that all cloth was to be settled with by
goods?-The price was 5 per cent. less if paid in cash.
14,989. But was it the rule that all the cloth was to be paid for by
goods?-No. They just had to take the goods for convenience; but
the wool was my father's, and I could go to whom he pleased with
it.
14,990. The account for 1870 in the book is still unsettled?-It
has been settled lately, and my father's account is now in another
book.
14,991. Do you think the things that are marked in that book were
got at the prices which are entered there?-Yes, so far as I know,
they were. There was no dispute with my father, either about price
or anything else.
14,992. We will go to your own books. Is this [showing] your
pass-book with Mr. Adie at Voe from 1869 downwards?-Yes.
14,993. Were all the articles entered there got by you at the prices
which are there marked?-Yes.
14,994. I see that in June and July 1869 there is some meal and
flour entered in quantities, without any price being marked?-Yes.
14,995. How did that happen?-They know best themselves why
they did not enter the prices. I cannot explain it.
14,996. I show you an entry of one quarter boll Indian meal: is that
in Mr. Adie's handwriting?-I don't know; it will be in the writing
of some of Adie's men. All the entries in that book were written
in the shop.
14,997. Has that account been settled?-Not yet.
14,998. Is that the reason why the price has not been put in?-No,
I should not say that was the reason.
14,999. Is this [showing] a continuation of the other account?-
Yes.
15,000. Have you got all the articles that are marked in this
book?-Yes.
15,001. Did you get all the articles entered there at the prices
which are marked?-Yes, I got them at the prices marked when
there is any price; but there is a sack of pease-meal entered
without any price to it.
15,002. I see an entry on May 30, 'To dog licence, 5s.; by cash, 2s.
6d.:-2s. 6d.:' what does that mean?-I had 2s. 6d. that I paid as
part of the dog licence, and Mr. Adie charged me with the rest.
15,003. Did you pay that licence through Mr. Adie?-Yes.
15,004. Does he transact all your business for you in that way?-
Yes.
15,005. Does he pay your accounts for you?-No; he never pays
any accounts for me, that I know of.
15,006. Did he only pay your dog licence for you?-He only paid
one half of it. He might have paid the whole if I had asked him to
do it.
15,007. The following are some of the entries in your book:-
1869.
May 18. 24 Ind. ml., 0 3 0
16 o. meal, 0 3 0
29. 35 o. meal, 0 4 3
June 14. 1/4 boll In. meal.
July 8. 35 sec. paring flour.
30. 35 overhd. flour.
Oct. 23. 1/4 gall. oil, 9d.
Dec. 10. 16 lbs. flour, 2s.
Was the oil mentioned in the entry of October 23, oil which you
required for burning?-Yes; and I could have got it at the same
time at Mr. Robertson's for not above 2s. per gallon.
15,008. In the continuation of that book there are the following
entries:-'1871. May 31: 35 Ind. meal; 35 Shetland groats:' did
you get these articles?-Yes.
15,009. Have you had any price fixed for them yet?-No; but I
knew the price current at the time.
15,010. There is also in the same book an entry under date June 2,
'1/2 boll overhead flour,' and 1s. 3d. is marked in small figures
above the entry: what does that mean?-I don't know. It was
there when I got the book home, but what it meant I could not say.
15,011. There are other two entries under date June 16, of '35
Indian meal, and 35 flour,' with the small figures 1s. and 1s. 3d.
respectively written above them in the same way?-These figures
may mean the price of the meal and flour per peck at that time.
15,012. There are also the following entries in the book:-'June
26, 35 flour, 5s.; July 5, 35 flour, 5s; and July 13, 28 Shetland
meal, 3s. 91/2d.:' have you any doubt that all these entries which
have been read are entries of articles which you got at the times
stated from Mr. Adie at Voe, and that they were charged at the
prices marked in the pass-book?-I have no doubt the entries are
quite correct as to that.
15,013. You have also produced to me a pass-book kept by you
with Mr. Robert Sutherland at Vidlin, in which I find the following
entries. 'Nov. 11, 1869: 16 lb. oatmeal, 2s. 6d. Feb. 11, 1870: 16
lb. oatmeal, 2s. 3d.:' have you any doubt that these articles were
got and charged at the prices stated?-I have no doubt of that, and
that these were the regular prices they were being sold at.
15,014. Is there anything else in these books to which you wish to
direct my attention?-There [showing] is an entry in the book with
Mr. Adie, September 26, sack pease-meal, and there is no price
stated.
[Page 378]
15,015. But there is no price fixed of fifty things in the book?-
No; that is what I say.
15,016. Did you not ask to have the price of that pease-meal fixed
at the time?-No.
Lerwick, January 29, 1872, CHARLES ROBERTSON, examined.
15,017. Your firm of R. & C. Robertson have an extensive trade in
provisions in Lerwick?-Yes; we do fair business, both wholesale
and retail.
15,018. Is it generally one kind of meal that is kept by each
merchant for ordinary retail purposes?-So far as I know, it is.
15,019. Do you generally have only one quality of oatmeal in stock
at a time?-Yes.
15,020. Is it the same with Indian meal?-We have not been in the
habit of selling Indian meal.
15,021. Can you tell me the price of oatmeal on 21st April
1868?-It was 26s. 6d. per boll of 140 lbs. is the credit price;
for cash it would be 6d. less.
15,022. How much would that be for 24 lbs.?-About 4s. 6d., or
about 1s. 7d. per peck.
15,023. Would is 7d. per peck be your selling price at that time?-
Yes.
15,024. Would 1s. 9d. per peck have been a high price for it in
Lerwick then?-It would have been much higher than we would
get for it.
15,025. Would you be surprised to find that at that date it was
selling in the country districts at is. 9d.?-I would.
15,026. Was the price in a fluctuating condition about that time?-
I see that a month later it was 1s. less, and two months later it was
2s. less per boll. The market was falling in April.
15,027. Did it continue to fall during the rest of the year?-I see
that a month later than the last quotation I have given it was just
about the same price.
15,028. Was there a good harvest in 1868?-No; but the crop here
does not affect the market price.
15,029. But was there a good harvest that year over Scotland and
England?-I don't remember just now. I see that in August 1868
the price was up 6d. per boll.
15,030. Was the price as high as 1s. 9d. per peck in January
1869?-It was not. I see on 26th January we have it charged at
23s. per boll, which would be about 1s. 6d. less per boll than it
was in July, and 3s. 6d. less than it was in April 1868.
15,031. Therefore you would say that in January 1869 meal was
considerably cheaper than it had been in April of the previous
year?-Yes.
15,032. What was the price of oatmeal on February 11, 1870?-I
don't have the price on the 11th; but on 5th February it was 17s.
3d., and on the 15th 17s., or about 1s. per peck.
15,033. Have you any means of telling me the price of Indian
meal, although you do not sell it?-I have bought two or three
bolls of it within the last year or two, and I have paid somewhere
about 13s. or 14s. per boll for it. That would be somewhere
about 9d. per peck, or rather 10d., because in weighing out there is
generally about half a peck of loss per boll, and allowance must be
made for that.
15,034. Then 1s. per peck would be rather a high price for it by
retail?-Yes, it would be high enough.
15,035. I suppose the qualities of flour that you sell in your trade
are more various than the qualities of meal?-Yes, we have
several qualities.
15,036. What would be the price of your best flour on October 6,
1869?-I see the finest quality of flour would be about 14d. per
peck. The next quality below that was 16s. per boll, which would
retail at 1s. per peck; that is overhead flour, what we call fine.
15,037. On 2d June 1871 what would be the price of overhead
flour?-It was 16s. 6d. per boll on 30th May, which would retail
at 1s. per peck. There are two qualities of overhead flour, fine
and common.
15,038. At that date would 1s. 3d. per peck have been a high price
for overhead flour of any quality?-Yes, it would have been a top
price. 1s. per peck was the price of the common kind; but there is
only a difference in price of about 2s. per boll between common
and fine.
15,039. Therefore, even for the fine quality, 1s. 3d. would be it
very high price?-Yes.
15,040. What were the average prices of oatmeal in 1870?-
In Jan. about 17s. 9d. In April, about 17s. 6d.
" Feb. " 17s. 3d. " May, " 18s. 9d.
" March, " 17s. 6d. " June " 19s. 0d.
Up to the middle of July it was 19s. 6d., and then it took it start in
the beginning of the French War up to 22s. In a week it was down
1s., to 21s., at which it continued during the first three weeks of
August, and the last week 19s. 6d. September, 19s. The first week
of October, 19s.; second week, and to the end of the month, 18s.
6d. November, 19s. December, about 19s. 3d. In 1871 the prices,
taking them about the middle of each month, were-
s. d. s. d.
January, 19 6 July, 21 6
February, 20 0 August, 21 0.
March, 20 6 September, 21 0
April, 21 0 October, 20 0
May, 21 6 November, 19 0
June, 21 6 December. 19 6
In January 1872, 19s. cash, or 19s. 6d. credit. The prices I have
given are all credit prices. If the cash was paid for meal at any
of these times, it was always 6d. per boll less.
15,041. How do you proceed when you sell by the peck?-We
always allow half a peck or a peck per sack for weighing out,
and that comes to about 1/2d. a peck.
15,042. So that, when meal is 19s. 6d., as at present, it is 131/2d.
per peck?-Yes, either cash or credit. We would not make any
difference on the peck.
15,043. What was the price of flour at June 26, 1871?-Common
overhead flour about that date in June was 16s. per boll, and the
best overhead would have been 18s. or 18s. 6d. There is another
quality of fine flour, the finest quality we keep, which would have
been about 22s. per boll, or 5s. 6d. per quarter.
15,044. Was the price the same about 5th July following?-About
the same. There has been little or no alteration on the price of that
flour almost the whole season.
15,045. If you saw an entry of flour at 5s. in a passbook, and
another of overhead flour at 1s. 3d. in the same book within the
course of a month, would you think it probable they were the same
article,-the quantity not being mentioned?-Yes. 5s. would be
the price of a lispund, or four pecks and 1s. 3d. of peck.
15,046. Shetland meal, I suppose, is an article that you hardly ever
have in the market?-We seldom or never buy it. In fact there is
very little of it now to be got.
15,047. Then you cannot give me any information as to the price
of it last July?-Not last July, but it always sells considerably
below the price of south-country meal.
[Page 379]
LERWICK, TUESDAY, JANUARY 30, 1872.
<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.
ANDREW JOHN GRIERSON, examined.
15,048. Are you the proprietor of the estate of Quendale?-I am.
15,049. Are you also engaged in the fish-curing business?-I am.
I have been so for 11 years.
15,050. Mr. Ogilvy Jamieson is your shopkeeper at Quendale,
and keeps a shop there for the supply of your neighbours and
fishermen?-Yes, for the supply of my fishermen primarily, and
for any one else who chooses to go to it.
15,051. The returns you have made to me show the amount of
dealing which these fishermen have had in accounts at your shop,
and also other particulars of your business?-They do. They have
been made up from my ledger for the two years which have been
selected.
15,052. Were these favourable years for the fishing, or
otherwise?-1871 was an exceedingly favourable year. I
should say that 1867 was not more than a medium year. The
price was miserable, but I had a great quantity of fish. Both
the fishing and the price were good in 1871.
15,053. How do you arrange with your men about boats? Do the
boats belong to themselves, or are they hired out?-I have no
boats. They are debited to the men.
15,054. How long does it generally take for a man to pay up the
price of his boat?-I have had no experience of these six-oared
boats, such as I have been furnishing lately, because the fishing
was entirely of saith until now.
15,055. Have you introduced larger boats lately?-Yes. I have got
the men encouraged to take them within the last three years; and I
have only supplied the large new boats within the past season.
15,056. About what number of tenants have you upon your
estate?-I can tell by referring to the copy of my valuation
return for the last year; but only one half, the smaller half, of
my property is in Dunrossness. There are 48 tenants on
Quendale and Brough, in Dunrossness.
15,057. Does that include the large farm there?-No; I am not
including myself. I am holding my own farm, and I have counted
it out. I have also counted out the Free Church minister, who
holds a house from me.
15,058. Are these 48 tenants all men who might fish?-Yes; they
don't all fish to me, but they might fish.
15,059. You have also a number of tenants in Sandsting?-Yes; I
have 108 there.
15,060. Are the tenants in Sandsting at liberty to fish for any one
they please?-They are at liberty to do anything under the sun, if
they only pay me my rent. They are under no obligation whatever.
15,061. It is said that there is an obligation on the tenants on
Quendale to deliver their fish to you. Is that so?-It is. That is
a condition upon which they sit upon the ground.
15,062. Have you found them generally willing to agree to that
condition?-They have agreed to it without the slightest difficulty.
I am the third generation of the name for whom they have fished.
They never sat upon the property on any other condition since it
was purchased by us about 1765.
15,063. Do you consider that condition to be beneficial to the
landlord and the tenants?-I do. I am satisfied that it is beneficial
for the tenants when the landlord will take the trouble; but it is a
very great deal of trouble.
15,064. Does it not depend entirely upon the landlord's efficiency
as a man of business, whether the condition is a beneficial one for
the tenants or not?-Yes. I think Mr. Bruce, junior, Mr. Urnphray,
and I are the only proprietors in the country who carry on the
fishing to any extent.
15,065. Do you think it would be necessary to increase the rents of
the tenants if they were not under that obligation to fish for you?-
I certainly should increase their rents in Dunrossness if they were
not under that obligation.
15,066. You are aware that a great deal has been said about that
kind of obligation, and that some of your tenants and many of Mr.
Bruce's have come forward and complained loudly about it?-I
know that. I understand the complaint of a great part of Mr.
Bruce's tenants has turned very much upon the question whether
they should be allowed to dry their fish for themselves.
15,067. To some extent it has; but they also wish to be able to
sell their fish as they please, whether they dry them or not. Still
it is the case that a good many of them have spoken very strongly
in favour of being allowed to cure their fish for themselves?-I
would not carry on the fishing upon that condition at all.
15,068. Would you not buy the fish if they had been cured by the
men?-No. I would not undertake to do that on any consideration,
because you would just be swindled, and you could not help
yourself in buying the dry fish. The men are not able to cure
their fish and be ready to commence the next season's fishing.
They could not come to me or to any other person at the end of
the year, and say in an independent manner, 'Will you buy my
fish?' because, in the first place, they must come to me or to some
other person and ask, 'Will you be pleased to supply us with salt
and, meal, and so on, and we will dry our fish and deliver them
to you?' If we agreed to do so, the men commence, it may be
from February, and we supply them with salt, lines, meal, and
everything they require, and that goes on until the end of the
fishing in August, when we must take their fish, but the fish are
mortgaged already. Then, if we go to look at the fish, we find they
have been salted with the least possible amount of salt, and they
are just a parcel of rubbish; but we have paid for them already by
the advances we have made, and we must take them and make the
best or the worst of them. Besides, in the case of an unprincipled
man, he has got the thing in his own hands, because he is aware
that he has already pledged all his fish to you. They are still his
property, however; but while the fish are undelivered, it is very
easy for him to slip some of them on board one of the packets
running to Lerwick, and sell them to any person for cash down. I
am not a lawyer sufficient to know whether that would be a case
of theft or not; but when the wet fish are weighed to me out of the
boat, it is my own fault if I don't cure them so as to be fit for the
market; and if any fellow steals any of my fish, then it would be
a case of theft. I have seen the results of such a system on a
neighbouring property, because Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh's property
has only been under his son's management for eleven years.
Before then his tenants were at liberty to go anywhere they liked,
and they were drowned over head and ears in debt, both to their
landlord and to their fish-curers.
15,069. Do you think the indebtedness of the fishermen is reduced
when the landlord takes the fishing into his own hands?-I do
think so; when they are dealt with in the same manner that is
followed at Dunrossness now.
15,070. But you are speaking now of the previous state of
indebtedness, not from personal knowledge of [Page 380]
your own tenantry, but from what you know of Mr. Bruce's?-
I was as well acquainted with them as if they were my own
tenantry. I was living at my own place then; and when young
Mr. Bruce and I went into partnership together, and endeavoured
to secure the tenants from some of the merchants in Lerwick, it
was part of our business to ascertain the exact amount of debts
upon the south part of the Sumburgh property.
15,071. Are you prepared to say that the amount of debt due by the
fishermen on that property was greater then than it is now?-I am
not prepared to say anything more than what Mr. Bruce told me
about the year 1866 or 1867. 1866 was the last of a series of years
when there were very few of them in debt. Mr. Bruce and I were
talking over the matter, and I was bragging about how small the
debt was in my case, and he told me then that the debt was very
much reduced; and I believe that now they are due nothing to any
person except himself.
15,072. Can you give an idea as to the amount of debt that was
due at the date you speak of? Do you think it would amount to
the whole value of the stock on each man's farm in one half the
cases?-No; nothing like that. A man's stock mounts up to a large
amount of money when it comes to be turned into cash. I would
not speak to precise figures; but my impression at present is, that
the debt at that time might amount to about three rents, or
something like £1200. There might be three rents in arrear of
the rental.
15,073. Have you had any experience that enables you to compare
your own property, at a time when it was not in your hands for
fishing purposes with what it is now?-No. It has never been out
of the hands of my family since the time I mentioned.
15,074. I believe it is not a common practice to raise rents in
Shetland?-No; there has really been very little done in that way.
15,075. Has that something to do with the system of fishing for
and obtaining supplies from the landlord?-I don't think it has
been so much that, as the fact that the landlords are resident in the
place, and there is a sort of moral pressure brought to bear upon a
person who is living in the neighbourhood. You don't like to
make yourself odious among the neighbours round about you. I
think that has had more to do with it than anything else. It is not
the same sort of thing as if a factor was raising the rent for a man
living at a distance. On the Annsbrae estate the proprietors had
not had the fishing for a long time, but I believe there was not
a rise of rent there for two generations, until Mr. Walker
commenced to deal with the property a few years ago. The land
there was very cheap. I think the land is not over-rented, and there
has been very little change upon it in that way until lately.
15,076. I understand the proprietors interested in fishing invariably
make advances to their tenants, in the form of meal and goods?-
They must do so.
15,077. That, I suppose, arises from a want of ready money among
the tenantry themselves?-Yes. Those who have not ready money
must have these advances. There are some people who do not
require them.
15,078. Don't you think their number would be increased if by a
ready-money system they were encouraged to save money and to
acquire habits of frugality?-I don't think so. My experience,
from the beginning of the business, so far as I have had to do with
it, has been, that under the present system a prudent man who
chooses to exercise self-denial could pass out of all possible
control, either of landlord or fish-curer, to do him any injury. He
could, if he chose, draw his money and send it where he liked; and
I have had numbers of men who have not dealt to the extent of £1
in the year with me since I began business. They just took their
money at the end of the year, and supplied themselves where they
chose.
15,079. Does it not seem to you that the improvident have undue
facilities for obtaining credit when they get supplies for the fishing
from the landlord, who has an inducement to carry them on in the
knowledge that they have to fish for him?-That has not been my
practice. I don't like to make any bad debts, and in two cases I
have turned a man about his business because I could not keep him
out of debt. The most profitable fisherman is the man who pays
his way, and not the man who takes goods out of the shop.
15,080. But in order to get your boats manned, I fancy you are
obliged to make these supplies?-Yes, we must make advances.
15,081. Do you think the system of paying a man cash down for
his fish, or at shorter intervals than an annual settlement, could be
carried out?-I cannot see how it would work; and besides, I think
if such a plan were introduced, the people would just revert to the
present system. I am perfectly satisfied that, if you were to pass a
law requiring the men to be paid in cash down, the result would be
that we would have a meeting, and we would agree to pay so much
per cwt., and the fishermen would say, 'We know you, and we will
trust to you paying us that price at the end of the season.' That
would be the case with the greater number of curers, such as Hay
& Co., Mr. Garriock, and myself. The price would be fixed at a
particular time but the men would take our word for it that they
were to be paid at the end of the season. We would have to pay
them a nominal price at short intervals in order to satisfy the law,
but they would expect to be paid a higher price at the end of the
season, if it turned out that we realized a higher price for our fish.
That would be a binding arrangement, on the one side at least.
15,082. But that would not be a very fair bargain?-It would just
be the bargain that we are constantly forced to make with the
fishermen, because they always expect the curers to be fast on one
side, but not on the other. For instance, if they sign an agreement
to go to the Faroe fishing from March to August, and it comes a
bad year, they don't get so many fish as makes the voyage a
profitable one for them, and they say they will rather go to prison
than go to the fishing another year, unless you put them upon
wages. In the meantime you have made advances to them, and you
must give them the chance of that. I know that Messrs. Hay and
others have engaged fishermen for that fishing at a settled price,
but when the end of the season came the fish had been sold so well
that other curers were paying a high rate, and they have just had to
put the bargain in the fire, and pay according to the higher price, or
lose the services of the men.
15,083. Could not an arrangement of this kind be carried out,
that a price should be fixed to be paid weekly, or fortnightly, or
monthly, on the delivery of the fish, according as the case may be,
and that the fishermen should be entitled, as in the whale fishing,
to an additional payment, similar to oil-money, at the end of the
season?-Yes, they might be paid at such a rate as the curer could
afford, in the same way as is done now; but that would come
practically to the same thing as the present system.
15,084. Would it not be a system of paying weekly wages, with an
additional payment in proportion to the produce?-It would not be
wages: it would be a weekly payment for produce, because weekly
wages would never do.
15,085. Would it not virtually be wages, with a bonus on the
amount of the produce besides?-I suppose it would; but wages
are a different thing from paying a man for what he delivers to
you. If you pay a man wages, he may turn lazy and do nothing,
and you cannot be looking after him when he is at the fishing.
15,086. But this would be a payment of wages, and something
more. He would have an inducement to work in order to increase
the total produce at the end of the season?-That might be so; but I
have thought over the subject, and I see no other way in which the
system can be worked than it is at present. The law will be
complied with nominally, but matters would fall back into their
old state.
15,087. But if the law only required a certain proportion to be
paid at short intervals, could it not be complied with, not only
nominally, but substantially, in that way, and still recognise such
an arrangement as [Page 381] you consider would be necessary?-
It might be, but it would be a very disagreeable and a very difficult
thing to carry out. It would be hardly possible to arrange the price
that, was to be paid for the fish during the course of the season.
15,088. Would the price not always be very considerably below
what the fish were expected to realize?-Supposing the price in a
number of years had been, on an average, 7s. or 8s. per cwt. for
ling, probably both curers and fishermen might agree to fix 5s. 6d.
as the rate at which the men were to be paid in the course of the
season, reserving to them a further payment, according as the
fishing turned out?-Yes, it might be managed in that way quite
well; but then what would the people do before they got any fish
ashore at all? How would they be able to live then?
15,089. I suppose the object of the Legislature would be to teach
them to lay by something on which they might be able to live
when they were not actually at the fishing?-That might be the
object, but the people might die in the teaching. It is all very well
to come down and see the country in a year like this, when money
has been flush; but if you had seen such a year as 1868 or 1869 or
1870, when the people were coming to you in January starving,
and wanting you to advance them meal and other things, and a big
debt standing against them at the same time in the merchant's
books, you would have seen that it was not such a matter of plain
sailing then.
15,090. Don't you think that even at that season the fishing might
have been prosecuted to some extent?-No; there was nothing to
catch. Besides, a good crop makes a great difference in Shetland.
I don't think I bought thirty bolls of meal in the south country last
year, but I was buying 300 or 400 for the same number of men in
those years. Still, although the men are in such distress in bad
years, I think you ought to know what an amount of money some
of the fishermen have lying in the Union Bank, on deposit receipt.
You would find then that they are not so poor as they have been
represented.
15,091. Do you think most of the deposits in the banks here under
£100 belong to fishermen?-I think so.
15,092. Do you also think that a number of the deposits above that
sum belong to people of the same class?-I am satisfied of that.
15,093. In short, you think that almost all the deposits in the banks
here must be those of fishermen?-I think most part of them are
those of fishermen, crofters, and small tenants throughout the
country; because I think that any person who had accumulated
more than that sum would be likely to invest it in some more
remunerative way than to leave it on deposit receipt in the bank.
When people have been told in the public prints that a Shetlander
nearly loses his head when he sees a £1 note, it is very important
that there should be some inquiry on that subject.
15,094. Do you think that men who are indebted to you, for
instance, or to any other person engaged in business, and getting
advances in the course of the year, are likely to have deposits in
the bank?-I don't think that. I could tell over the names of the
men upon my property who I suppose have deposits; but I am
perfectly satisfied that none of those who are indebted to me have
any deposits at all.
15,095. It has been alleged that a fisherman might get advances
from the merchant who employs him, although he had a deposit
receipt in the bank, especially in a distant place, where it would
cost some trouble to him to go to his bank and get his deposit
receipt altered. Do you think he would do so if he only wanted a
small sum?-I believe that to a certain extent he would. I believe
that he might take advances from his landlord's shop during the
season, although he had a deposit receipt, if he saw that he could
get the things as moderate upon credit from his landlord as he
could elsewhere, paying for them at the end of the year. That is
sometimes done when the men want a boat. There are tenants of
mine without means of their own, who have come to me and said
they wanted a new boat. I would ask them who was to pay for it,
and they would tell me that some of the men to whom the boat was
to belong were not able to pay for then, although others might be
able to pay their share; and it was better for the whole of them to
pay their shares at the end of the season, because the men who had
the money would have got no advantage by paying it at the time.
15,096. But do you think a man would stand permanently in arrear
at settlement with you if he had money in the bank?-No; but if I
settle with him in January, I believe he would go and deposit a £10
note from that year's settlement, and begin a new account with
me, and get a new boat, and let it stand to his credit until next year.
But he would never think of having a permanent running balance
with me if he had money of his own in bank.
15,097. Is it a general thing among the men to go and deposit some
of their money in bank and begin a new account with you?-Yes, I
believe they do that for a single year. They would be great fools if
they did not. They keep a pass-book, if they choose, with the shop,
and they would be no better off if they were to pay for their goods
in money.
15,098. Would they not be better off if they could get their goods
cheaper for cash?-I don't know that they could do that. I cannot
get the things any cheaper from the Lerwick dealers for cash. I
pay my accounts here every six weeks, and get only 2s. 6d. or so
off £4 or £5.
15,099. But are not the prices in Lerwick lower than they are in
your quarter?-I don't think so. I think I am selling as low as they
do in Lerwick, and sometimes even lower. Mr. Gavin Henderson's
shop is near ours, and he acts as a powerful pressure upon us.
15,100. Do you sometimes exact liberty money?-I have exacted
liberty money two or three times from landholders. I don't take it
from young men-only from landholders. Three guineas is what I
fixed it at, but I asked a pound only for the last man who fished off
the property. His name was James Shewan; and I told him this
year that he could fish for nothing, because I wanted his land to
put a few sheep on. He is going to fish for nothing this year, and
he is to leave at Martinmas.
15,101. That is to say, he is to fish to any party for nothing?-He
can fish to any person he likes. I believe in the evidence which
has been given, mention was made of a lad Thomas Johnston not
getting liberty to go home to his father's house because he was
fishing for another curer. The understanding I have with the
tenants is, that I expect them all, both young men and old, to fish
for me, on condition that I pay them as well as any other person;
and I want to put as much pressure as I consider reasonable upon
them for that purpose. But young men are not to be bound always
to fish at the home fishing, and sometimes there may not be a way
suitable for them; and I have told them all in such a case that they
could go to Faroe or to Greenland, or go out of the parish into the
next parish, and prosecute the fishing there. This lad Johnston,
who was the son of a man considerably indebted to me, went down
to the other side and fished to Messrs. Hay & Co., and I daresay I
did come pretty hard down upon the father for allowing his son to
go away. The result was, that the lad spent his winter about a
mile and a half or two miles from his father's house in service
there, but he has been back since then. On other occasions two
or three young men have left the parish when they could not get a
convenient boat in it, and gone to Dunrossness to the fishing, and I
have never said anything to them about it. There is one lad who is
to fish for Mr. Bruce in a boat's crew of his in the incoming
season, and I have made no objection to it.
15,102. There was another case mentioned in the previous
evidence also-that of a man named Williamson, at Berlin. It
was said his son was engaged to a neighbouring crofter as a
servant, and that he had been obliged to leave that and come to
your employment as beach boy for a lower wage?-I cannot tell
anything [Page 382] about that; but, as a rule, I expect the boys to
serve me at the beach on the usual terms. I always make a point
of informing them in plenty of time, perhaps about August, that I
will require so and so the following year, so that they may not
make any other engagement. If such a thing took place with
Williamson's son, I never heard of it. I had a boy named
Williamson in my employment at the beach last season, and I
suppose he was a son of old James Williamson's, but I knew
nothing about him having been previously engaged to another
service. With regard to liberty money, I may say that in 1867
Charles Eunson paid me over £3 or three guineas; and John
Flawes. I think they fished to me in the following year.
15,103. One complaint made by the men with regard to the price
paid to them for their fish, was that some neighbouring curers at
Sandwick, Thomas Tulloch and James Smith, paid 9d. per cwt.
more for ling, and also an additional price for other fish above
what is called the current price: can you explain how that arises?-
I can explain how the current price, according to which we pay, is
fixed, but I don't understand how Tulloch and Smith can pay the
price they do. If you can investigate that and let us see it in the
blue-book, we will perhaps get a wrinkle out of it; but we cannot
understand it in the meantime. What I promise to my fishermen,
and what I promise any stray boats that come to me-and I have
three or four boats fishing to me just now from Simbister
property-is, that whatever Messrs. Hay & Co., Mr. John Bruce,
Mr. John Robertson, and Mr. Mullay pay, will be paid by me also.
Mr. Tulloch and Mr. Smith are no guide to me with regard to the
price which I am to pay; and I tell the men they must go to them if
they want their price.
15,104. Can you account for their higher prices by the fact that
they sell, not to wholesale dealers as the larger merchants do, but
to retail purchasers, and thus get both the retail and the wholesale
profit?-That may account for it. I know that Tulloch's boat is
coming up to Lerwick every week during the summer with casks
of fish for retail dealers. Of course, when I am shipping 100 tons,
I must allow a middle-man to take them, and he must have his
profit; but I have nothing to do with how Tulloch manages his
business.
15,105. Do communications pass between you and the other
fish-curers as to the price of fish before you settle with your
fishermen?-The fact is, that I have always found it the most
difficult thing possible to make out what price they were going
to pay. One curer may get a sort of a pull over another if he pays
6d. or so above the market price but that leads to very disagreeable
feelings. I have asked Hay & Co. repeatedly what price they were
to pay, and they have given me no answer; and I have actually
found the current price by taking care to be about the last who
sold, and seeing what my neighbours had got before me. At the
present time I have squared up my books at a certain price; but Mr
John Bruce has not settled yet, and if he pays 2d. or 3d. above me I
shall have to turn my books over again and pay that additional. I
have always been the second last in settling, just in order that I
might see what my neighbours were to pay. One year I settled
before Hay & Co.'s people, and they paid 2d. a gallon on the livers
above me. I paid that up on the next year's livers, and lost a £10
note on the transaction.
15,106. Do you find the fishermen a difficult people to deal
with?-Exceedingly.
15,107. Do they make many inquiries as to the prices at which you
have sold the fish, or ask to see your accounts?-No. They begin
to understand about the end of the season what the price is to be
which they are to get. As a general rule we tell them that they
will get what other people are getting, and they will hear in time
enough; but they never think of asking what I am getting for the
fish myself. The Faroe fishers are the only people who would be
disposed to be troublesome in that way, because they are entitled
to one half of the proceeds of the fishing.
15,108. Have you anything to do with the Faroe fishing?-I have
one vessel there; but I don't supply the men with goods. Messrs.
Hay or Mr. Leask have been the agents for that; and I merely
interpone my security, and pay cash for the goods, without a
penny of profit upon them.
15,109. Do you give security to Messrs. Hay or Mr. Leask for the
advances which they make to your fishermen?-Yes; they are
debited to me.
15,110. Are the fishermen aware that such security is given and
that they can get advances at these shops?-Yes. Of course I
speak to one of Mr. Leask's men, and tell him that they are not
to advance the men beyond a certain amount, for fear of them
going over the line.
15,111. Do you get no commission upon their transactions at these
shops?-Not one farthing.
15,112. Do the fishermen in the Faroe trade require any exhibition
of the bills of sale?-I do not know. I never was asked to exhibit
my bills of sale; but they know exactly what the prices are. There
are people going back and forward to Leith who know exactly
what we get.
15,113. Are the fish sold by public sale in Leith?-No.
15,114. Are they sold by commission agents there?-We have
often to sell them direct. It is a miserable thing to put them into a
commission agent's hands. We try to make the best bargain we
can with the middle-men from Glasgow or Belfast.
15,115. Is there a traveller who comes round and purchases the
fish in Shetland?-They very often come round for that purpose.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM SIEVWRIGHT, examined.
15,116. You are a solicitor in Lerwick?-I am.
15,117. Do you act as factor on the property of Mrs. Budge,
Seafield?-Yes; I have been so for about two years, or something
like that.
15,118. [Shown letter from witness to William Stewart,
Kirkabister, dated 22d November 1870, quoted in Stewart's
evidence, question 8917]-Did you write that letter?-Yes.
15,119. Have you anything to say with regard to it?-All I have to
say is, that the Thomas Williamson mentioned in the letter had
been carrying on a small business at Seafield, and the tenants
had taken a prejudice against him, and did not wish to do any
business with him; the result of which was that he had resolved,
or pretty well resolved, to leave the place, and the business
premises were likely to be shut up in consequence. Before
writing the letter, I had seen several of the tenants there, and
particularly William Stewart, who was a leading man among them,
and had endeavoured to overcome that prejudice. I told them that
Mrs. Budge expected that they would, in her interest, fish to the
tenant of the business premises upon equal terms-that is to say, if
they could arrange with him upon as favourable terms as with any
other body, but not otherwise. They seemed to acquiesce in that,
or at any rate did not take any objection to it after I had explained
the matter to them; and I believe they have been thoroughly
satisfied with their transactions. I may explain further, that most
of these tenants, or at least many of them, were in debt, some
of them to a large extent, for land rent; and I thought it only
reasonable that if they could assist the proprietor, they should do
so. There was no compulsion, in the proper sense of the word.
The tenants understood quite well that it was merely if they could
make a bargain as favourable with Williamson as with any other
body that they were to do that.
15,120. Did Williamson become responsible to the proprietor for
the rent?-No.
15,121. Has it been paid through him?-I don't think so. Perhaps
a few of the tenants have paid it through [Page 383] him, but he
certainly was not responsible for it in any way. At any rate, I did
not make him bound.
15,122. Do the tenants ever pay their rents directly to you?-Yes.
Occasionally they hand them in to Mrs. Budge, who sends the
money to me; but the settlements are all made by me.
15,123. How many tenants are there on that property?-I think
altogether there are 25 or 26.
15,124. Have they any leases?-No; they are just yearly tenants.
The proprietor was very anxious to give them leases, but she is
only a liferenter herself, and she cannot give them the warrandice
they should have.
15,125. How many of these tenants are fishermen?-I think there
should be perhaps 15 or 16 of them, but I cannot be positive as to
that. I believe Williamson has two boats manned from among
them.
15,126. Has he also a shop?-Yes, a small shop.
15,127. And I suppose the trade of the shop depends on his
securing a certain number of fishermen for his boats?-Yes,
and on the good-will of the tenants there.
15,128. But if the tenants are in debt, are they not virtually obliged
to deal at his shop?-I don't think so.
15,129. Do you think it probable that they could get credit
anywhere else?-I certainly think so; and I think Williamson
himself is in a position to go a great way in giving them credit.
15,130. Are you aware that Williamson commenced business with
a very small capital?-I don't think he could have had much
means; but I believe he has paid his fishermen in cash this season.
15,131. You mean that he has paid in cash any balances that were
due?-I don't know that there were many balances due. I think
the fishermen would not deal much with him, and he actually paid
for the fish almost wholly in cash. I know that I sent him about
£120 for the purpose.
15,132. Then, notwithstanding the obligation to fish that is laid on
the tenants, Williamson has not been able to make a good business
there?-I don't think he has, because, notwithstanding that the
proprietor wished the tenants to deal with him as much as possible,
they have not, in point of fact, done so more than they could
possibly avoid. He is nearer to them, and they might get some
things more conveniently from him than anywhere else. I am
anxious to make it appear that I explained thoroughly to them, that
if they could not arrange with him upon as favourable terms as
with another, they were quite at liberty to do as they chose.
15,133. Is the letter I have shown you the only one that has passed
on the subject of fishing with Stewart or any of the tenants on that
estate?-The only one; and I have never had any complaints since
it was written.
15,134. Have you had any experience in the management of
property in other parts of Shetland?-Not a large experience, but
I have a pretty good notion of the manner in which it is managed.
15,135. Can you say whether it is common for rents to be paid
through the fish-merchant?-I believe it is rather common that the
fish-merchant becomes responsible for the rents. The proprietor
says to him, 'You have my fishermen, and you must pay their
rents,' or something like that.
15,136. Do you know that, in point of fact, it is usual for a
fish-curer to draw a cheque in favour of the proprietor for the
rents of a large number of the fishermen employed by him?-I
have seen it done. There is a small property in Delting that I have
managed, where a number of the rents have been paid in that way;
but there was no arrangement whatever that the fish-curer should
pay the rents: they just came through him. I have got perhaps £50
at a time in that way.
15,137. You are also a bank agent?-Yes.
15,138. Has that practice not come within your knowledge as a
bank agent?-I cannot say that it has.
15,139. You have not been long in that position?-Not long.
Besides, I could not be sure that cheques presented were for that
purpose.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT MULLAY, examined.
15,140. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-Yes, to a
small extent.
15,141. Have you any other business?-I have a retail shop here.
15,142. How many boats had you employed in the line-fishing last
year?-Seven.
15,143. You have a fishing station at Ireland, in Dunrossness, on
the property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister?-Yes. I pay rent to him
for the beach and booth.
15,144. Is your station the only place in that neighbourhood where
fish can be landed and dried?-There is no other place in that bay
where fish can be cured; there is no other beach than the one I
have.
15,145. Are the tenants on that part of the Simbister estate under
any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever.
15,146. Do they, in point of fact, all fish for you?-Yes; all those
who fish out of that bay.
15,147. Is that because there is no other beach?-I suppose there is
no other cause for it.
15,148. Would it be a misstatement to say that the Simbister
tenants in that quarter are obliged, by the terms of their tenure, to
fish for you and for Mr. John Robertson, jun.?-Yes. They are
not bound, because there are some of them who fish for me in one
year, and perhaps they are at the farthest end of Shetland the next,
and then they may come back to me again.
15,149. Do you keep a shop at the fishing station?-I keep nothing
there except a supply of fishing lines and hooks.
15,150. Do any of the fishermen there get their supplies from your
shop in Lerwick?-They get what they want.
15,151. Do they keep an account with you, which is settled at the
annual settling time?-Yes; but many of them never get one penny
from me except in the shape of cash. There must be an account
for them in my books when settling with them, and when the
fishing is divided between them and their partners; but many of
them have no individual account for out-takes.
15,152. Have you any interest in the Faroe fishing?-None
whatever.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN ROBERTSON, jun., examined.
15,153. Are you a merchant and fish-curer in Lerwick?-I am. I
have a retail shop here, and a fishing station at Spiggie on the
property of Mr. Bruce of Simbister.
15,154. Are the tenants in the neighbourhood of that station under
any obligation to fish for you?-None whatever. If such a
statement was made to you, it was entirely wrong. I am quite sure
the tenants there do not hold their land under any such condition.
15,155. Do many of Mr. Bruce's tenants fish for you, in point of
fact?-I think I had ten boats at Spiggie last year-three men in
each boat.
15,156. Were these men mostly from Mr. Bruce's lands?-Almost
entirely, I should say.
15,157. Was that because these lands are adjacent to your fishing
station?-I believe that is the principal reason why they fished for
me.
15,158. Might these men have cured their own fish, or fished for
any other merchant, if they had chosen?-Yes.
15,159. Was there any local circumstance that prevented them
from doing so?-They could not have cured their own fish in that
neighbourhood, because the beach was mine. I possessed it and
there is no other beach within several miles.
15,160. Therefore the fishermen residing in that particular place,
may be bound to a particular fish-curer by the physical character
of the country as well as by a legal obligation?-I believe that is
so. That is the only way [Page 384] in which I can account for the
men fishing at my station.
15,161. You have certain natural advantages at your station?-
Yes; and I presume it is the same in many other cases. At the
same time, I am willing to believe that if the men had had a choice
of stations, they would just as soon have fished for me as for any
other person in that neighbourhood. I settled with them at the end
of the year, and paid them according to the current price.
15,162. You did not pay them above it?-No.
15,163. I believe there are some merchants in your neighbourhood
who pay considerably above the current price?-They are not
exactly in my neighbourhood, but there are such merchants within
a dozen miles.
15,164. How do you account for them being able to do so?-I am
not able to account for the proceedings of these gentlemen; they
always appear to me to be inexplicable.
15,165. Could you not afford to pay at the price which they
give?-No, not unless I worked for nothing.
15,166. Could you not do it if you were selling to the retail dealers
direct?-I don't think I could: that could not be done, as a general
rule.
15,167. Do you sell your fish to wholesale merchants?-
Generally; I may say always.
15,168. Do you sell them in one lot at the end of the season?-
Generally in one lot.
15,169. Do most of the men run accounts with you for supplies
during the fishing season?-A few of them do.
15,170. Have you a store there for that purpose?-I have a station
there, and during the summer season I keep some fishing materials
at it, such as lines and hooks, and things of that sort. These are the
only materials I am expected to supply them with.
15,171. Do you not supply them with meal and other stores?-It is
expected that I will supply them with them too, if they ask for
them; but the men generally in that neighbourhood are very well
off, and they can get their supplies from other merchants, and in
fact they do so.
15,172. Do many of them run accounts with you in Lerwick for
supplies?-The only article I supply them with is meal, and it is
principally the poorer men who get it from me; that is, men who
are a little behind, and who would not get credit so readily as some
of their neighbours.
15,173. Are these accounts for meal settled at the annual
settlement in the usual way?-Yes.
15,174. Have you any other fishings, except at Spiggie?-I have a
station at Levenwick also. I have not many boats there. I think
there were about half a dozen boats fishing for me last season.
15,175. Have you a store there for supplying the fishermen?-I
have, during the summer season, for supplying lines and hooks
and other fishing materials. I have also a store there for the sale of
general goods.
15,176. Is that a permanent store?-It has been permanent for the
last twelve months.
15,177. Do the men keep accounts there when they want goods on
credit, and settle for them at the end of the season?-Yes; but my
instructions to my factor are, to give as little as possible, except
fishing materials and some of the absolute necessaries of life, on
credit.
15,178. You are the successor to the business of Mr. Robert
Mouat?-Yes, and his predecessor too.
15,179. Were you trustee on his sequestrated estate?-No; it was
Mr. William Robertson.
15,180. Did Mouat, during the last two years of his tack, call the
tenants together and desire them to fish for you?-No. In October
or November 1870 he came and told me he was going to give up
the fishing, because he had so many other kinds of business, and
he could not look after them all quite well; and he said he would
give me the run of the store at Levenwick and the beach during the
last two years of his tack that remained. I agreed to take it, and
came down to the place. He was there at the time, and he invited a
number of the men to wait upon him, and told them what he had
resolved to do, and recommended that they should fish for me.
Some of the men agreed to do so, and others said they preferred
having their freedom to do what they liked; and they did so.
15,181. Did many of the fishermen who had been in Mouat's
employment continue to fish for you when you took up that
station?-I made up about five or six boats last year out of his
men,-perhaps twenty men.
15,182. Did you find that these men were in great indebtedness?-
I found that there were some of them very poor and ill-off, much
worse than I would like to find them.
15,183. Did you take over any part of the stock which Mouat had
in his shop there?-Yes, I bought the stuff that remained in his
shop at the Moul.
15,184. Did you pay a full price for that?-Yes; it was sold at a
valuation, at which he and I were present.
15,185. What was the quality of the stock?-It consisted
principally of lines and some drapery goods. The quality of the
goods that I bought was very fair. Some of them had been very
recently brought in, but others had lain in the shop for a good
while. These articles I generally refused to take.
15,186. Had you to take over any meal?-No; there was not an
ounce in the shop.
15,187. Were there any articles of food of any kind?-No.
15,188. Then what you took over was entirely soft goods and
fishing materials?-Yes.
15,189. Have you any knowledge as to the quality and prices of
the provisions which had been sold in his shop?-No; that did not
come within my knowledge at all.
15,190. Have you understood from the people in the
neighbourhood whom you have since employed, that the
quality was very inferior and the price high?-I have heard
such complaints.
15,191. I suppose the people express themselves well pleased with
the change that has been made?-I heard of nothing else.
15,192. Was that the only transaction you had with Mouat or with
the trustee on his estate with regard to the shop business?-Ever
since Mouat became tacksman of that property, I have had some
dealings with him every year in the purchase of fish and herrings.
15,193. But had you any other transaction with him in
connection with him leaving the property and you taking over
the fishermen?-No; nothing beyond what I have stated.
15,194. Are you engaged in the herring fishing?-Yes.
15,195. How many vessels have you employed in it?-I would
have perhaps twenty boats from Levenwick and Lerwick going to
the herring fishing for about six weeks, commencing on 12th
August, and ending about the end of September.
15,196. What is the nature of the bargain which you make with the
crews of these boats?-It is understood that I am to pay the prices
that are generally paid in Shetland for herrings. Prior to 1869 the
price I paid to my men was generally regulated by the price paid
by Mr. Methuen, fish-curer, Leith, who is the largest fish-curer in
Scotland. He, up to that time, had boats from Mr. Bruce of Sand
Lodge. Mr. Bruce, once a year, made a bargain with Mr. Methuen,
and generally brought him to a very high figure, and my fishermen
expected that I was to pay the same price that Mr. Methuen did.
They considered that when Mr. Methuen, the greatest fish-curer in
Scotland, was able to give certain price to his men, they ought to
get the same and that was the price I always paid until three years
ago. Since then the herring fishing has been almost a blank; it has
been a source of great loss.
15,197. At that time did you become bound to pay them only the
current price in Shetland?-There was no bargain made about that.
In fact the fishing is so very uncertain, that it is just a matter of
circumstances whether we speak about prices or not. Last year, for
instance, I had to prepare for about twenty boats fishing, and, I
think I did not get thirty crans of herrings altogether.
[Page 385]
15,198. You did not fix a price per cran at the beginning of the
season?-No.
15,199. Are the men who are engaged in the herring fishing the
same men who fish for ling during the summer months?-Yes.
15,200. Are the boats different?-Frequently they are the same
boats.
15,201. Is the settlement made at the same time as the settlement
for the ling fishing?-Yes.
15,202. Is there any other point you desire to mention in
connection with this inquiry?-No. The whole question seems
to be very well ventilated, and I have nothing to add.
15,203. Would you have any objection to a system of weekly or
fortnightly payments for the fish that are delivered to you?-I
would have no objection to that if it were practicable, but I think
there are difficulties in the way which make it practically
impossible.
15,204. Would these difficulties not be removed, or greatly
reduced, if the weekly or fortnightly payment were only a portion
of the price, or a minimum price of say 5s. 6d. per cwt. for ling,
leaving the balance of the price of the fish to the end of the season,
and to pay it then?-I don't think that system would work very
well. It would entail a great amount of trouble and I cannot see
how it could be carried out.
15,205. Would there be any trouble, except keeping cash at the
stations and handing it to the fishermen at short intervals?-That
would be one great source of trouble.
15,206. Would there be any other?-The difficulty of introducing
such a system appears to me to be this, that the poor men would
not be able to get on in January and February before the fishing
begins, unless they obtained advances of some kind from the
merchants. If a system of ready-money payments were introduced,
the fish being paid for only when they were delivered in the month
of June, then the men would have some difficulty in maintaining
themselves in the winter and spring.
15,207. No doubt there might be some hardship or difficulty at
first, but after one or two seasons do you not think the men would
have learned to provide for that part of the season?-There are
certain classes of men that I don't see how such a system could
work with at all.
15,208. Could these men not find a certain provision in more
application to the winter fishing?-There are some localities where
the winter fishing is impracticable. The boats cannot be hauled up
and down, so that really there are no fish got except in a few days
of exceptionally fine weather.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER GARRIOCK, examined.
15,209. Are you a merchant in Lerwick?-I am an agent in
Lerwick.
15,210. Do you keep a shop?-No; but I keep fishing materials for
my men, and for general sale.
15,211. Are you engaged in the Faroe fishing?-Yes, only in the
Faroe fishing. I have three vessels employed in it.
15,212. Where are the men employed in these vessels supplied
with their materials and fishing supplies?-Their fishing materials
are got from me, and I generally appoint them to get their other
materials from Hay & Co., or R. & C. Robertson, or Harrison &
Sons. There are four or five individuals in Lerwick that I give
them their option to get their materials from.
15,213. Do you guarantee these gentlemen for the advances they
give to your men?-Yes; at least of late I have had to do it.
15,214. Do you settle with the merchants before settling with the
fishermen?-No, not before. The men get their accounts from
them, and we retain the amount.
15,215. Do you receive a commission upon the advances made by
the merchants?-Occasionally.
15,216. Do you not always do so?-No. Some of them don't agree
to give it; there is no arrangement about that.
15,217. Do those who give it get a reference?-They do not. The
men have very often to go to them.
15,218. But you give them the option only to go to certain parties
whom you name?-Yes. If they begin to deal with one party, they
must deal with the same party during the season, because of the
difficulty of keeping accounts with the various parties in the town.
15,219. You name a certain number of merchants with whom they
must deal?-Yes; and they are generally the most respectable
people in Lerwick, where they can get their supplies most
moderately. But the men were naming any one themselves with
whom they wished to deal, they would have the same option to
deal with him, only they must deal with the same individual for the
season.
15,220. Would you give a similar guarantee to a merchant whom
the men named themselves?-Yes.
15,221. Do you do that in order that the families of the men may
be
able to live during the fishing season-Yes.
15,222. But it is only in the event of a man requiring these
advances that you give such a guarantee, or require them to go
to such a shop?-They all require it.
15,223. Are none of them able to live upon their own resources?-
Plenty of them; but still they come for their supplies. There was
an instance of that occurred with me only eight days past on
Saturday. A man who had been in my employment for two or
three years had been engaged two or three weeks before to go to
the fishing for the rising season, and he came on Saturday and
asked for supplies. I asked him where he wished them from, and
he said Hay & Co.'s, and I gave him an order to go there. After
giving it to him, he came and asked me for some cash. I told him
thought it was rather early to come and ask for cash for the rising
season, and that he could hardly have spent the money he had got
from me at settlement. After a good deal of pressure, he said that
about the time he had settled with me he had got some money
from his son, and he had added it to the money he had from me,
and had put it into the bank, and he did not like to draw it out
again. Therefore it is not altogether from necessity that they get
these supplies.
15,224. But they all take them as a matter of course?-Yes. There
are some men who always get them, and the other men would
think they were not so well treated if they did not get them also.
15,225. Then the necessity of making these advances to the men is
one of the elements which the merchant must take into account in
making his arrangements for the season?-To some extent it must
be.
15,226. Is it not an element in fixing the price which the men are
to
get, that the merchant has to make advances of that description?-
Not so far as the Faroe fishing is concerned.
15,227. In the Faroe trade do the men get exactly the same price
for their fish which the merchant realizes?-Yes, and something
more.
15,228. Why do you give more?-Just because we are obliged to
do it. This year I am paying more than I can get. I am bound to
pay the currency, as it is called; and if the currency is higher than I
realize for the fish, I am still bound to pay it.
15,229. Have you not been able to sell up to the current price this
year?-No. I did not accept the price which was offered to me at
one time, thinking the fish would be higher, but instead of being
higher they fell. I did not sell until after the men were settled with.
15,230. Are you agent or owner of the fishing smack 'Gondola'?-
Yes.
15,231 What was the amount of earnings of the men employed in
that vessel last season?-The men's earnings in 1871 were about
£19 or £20, on an average, for the season.
15,232. Was that the whole proceeds that were paid from the catch
of the 'Gondola'?-Yes.
15,233. Was that the sum of which the men received payment after
the necessary deductions?-The sum which each man receives
varies according to his position [Page 386] in the vessel. The
master received £42, 11s. 3d.; the mate received £25, 8s. 10d.; one
man received £21, 6s., and the others ran from that to £19, 13s.
6d., if they were there the whole season, according to the amount
of their score-money.
15,234. What was the amount credited to each sharesman for the
value of his share of the fish?-It varied from £19, 13s. 6d. to
about £21, 6s. for an ordinary sharesman. The score-money makes
a little difference between one sharesman and another.
15,235. What was the amount of the share apart from the
score-money?-It was £14, 4s. 7d. for the Faroe fishing. That
was for the period when they were paid by shares; but there was
a part of the season when they were paid by wages, when they
were upon an Iceland voyage.
15,236. What was the number of the crew?-There were fourteen
during the Faroe fishing. Of these, nine were full sharesmen, and
the others varied from threequarters to half a share. There were
121/4 shares altogether, and the whole proceeds of the fishing
would be divided by that.
15,237. What was the total take of fish?-20 tons 6 cwt. 3 qrs. 21
lbs.
15,238. Was that a fair average fishing for the season?-No, it was
rather a poor season. I daresay it was fully an average for last
year; but it was a poor fishing, taking other years into account. We
would not consider it a paying season.
15,239. Who classes the quality of the fish?-It is generally the
merchant. We usually send the first-class fish to Spain, and the
other cod go to the home market.
15,240. You charge 52s. 6d. as the cost price for curing. Is that by
arrangement with the men at the beginning of the season?-No.
15,241. Is it rounded upon an estimate of the actual expense of
curing for the year?-We cannot ascertain every particular with
regard to the expense of curing the fish and bringing them into
market; but I am certain we are charging under the rate which it
actually costs us, including wages, salt, material, and a great many
other things that have to be embraced in it. We have often to
include coffee and other things supplied to the women at the
beach.
15,242. Are the people employed in your curing establishment
paid
by weekly wages or by fees for the season?-They are not paid in
that way at all. Here [showing in book] is the account of a man,
Arthur Leask, who employs some women from the mainland. I
make a contract with him for the curing of the fish. He generally
gives an order to the women, and I pay them what is contained in
that order.
15,243. Is that the way in which most of your curing business is
managed?-Yes.
15,244. Do you cure at the island of Linga?-Yes. Here [showing]
is another account with people who have been curing for me for a
number of years. I entered into the contract first with Laurence
Thomson; he died and left the farm, and then John Thomson took
it, and now Miss Thomson has it.
15,245. Is the work all done in contract with them?-Yes.
15,246. Do they give orders to their employés in the same way
as Leask?-I think they manage it themselves, both there and at
Linga, with the exception of the washing.
15,247. Do you pay them in cash?-Yes.
15,248. Have you any transactions with the people employed by
them?-No.
15,249. Had they an account for goods in any shop?-Not so far as
I am aware.
15,250. In what way are the people paid whom Leask sends to you
with orders?-They are paid in cash altogether.
15,251. Have you a written agreement with your Faroe fishers?-
Yes; I have a separate one for each smack every year.
15,252. Do you stipulate in that agreement what deductions are to
be made?-Yes; at least that is done generally. The deductions,
including the expenses of curing and bringing the fish to market,
and master's and mate's fees, score-money, and cost of bait, are
made from the gross proceeds, and then the balance is divided into
two-one half going to the men, and the other to the owners.
15,253. Is there not a deduction for commission?-No; that is
generally just an understanding.
15,254. What is that understanding?-That a commission is to
be charged. In the account I have produced for the 'Gondola'
commission and guarantee are charged at 5 per cent.,
15,255. Do the men at settlement see, or desire to see, the bills of
sale?-They have never done so in any case.
15,256. Do they sometimes complain that they did not see them,
or make any complaints about the price of the fish?-They are
always grumbling; but they never made any direct complaint to
me on the subject. In order to save a good deal of that trouble, the
North Sea Fishing Co. have produced their accounts, but very
frequently they have begun to settle with their fishermen at the
currency before the accounts were ready.
15,257. Do the company produce their bills of sale to the men?-
They are bound to do it if the men call for them.
15,258. Are you connected with that company?-I am a director of
it. Mr. Irvine, of Hay & Co., is the agent.
15,259. Do you know whether, in point of fact, the fishermen
generally see the bills of sale of that company?-I cannot tell.
That is a matter which is left in the hands of Mr. Irvine.
15,260. Are the men frequently in debt to you at the
commencement of the fishing season?-No. There were
some men who left me in debt last year, and they have gone
elsewhere,-I don't know where. In fact I would rather get clear
of a man who is in debt, and take my chance of getting my debt
from him afterwards, than employ him again, unless he was a very
good man.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, examined.
15,261. Are you a provision merchant in Lerwick?-I am. I have
been in business for eleven years.
15,262. Do you deal in anything else but provisions?-Nothing of
any consequence. Sometimes I get a little cottons, or small wares
as we call them.
15,263. Do you sometimes purchase soft goods over the
counter?-I used to do it; but I have not done so for the last
twelve or eighteen months.
15,264. Why did you give it up at that time?-There were
several reasons for it. I did not think it was a nice thing to do;
and sometimes it was more bother than it was all worth.
15,265. You probably found your other business increasing?-It
was not for that reason that I gave it up. I got more humbug by it
than all the good it was.
15,266. How were you humbugged by it?-I would sometimes
take goods in that had perhaps been stolen, and I lost them
altogether. It was a kind of broker's business that I did.
15,267. Did you do a good deal of that business at one time?-Not
much.
15,268. But still you were a broker to some extent?-It was not
worth speaking of.
15,269. What kind of goods were you in the habit of getting in that
way?-Various sorts of goods, such as wearing apparel. There
was nothing else that I recollect of particularly just now.
15,270. Did you sometimes get cottons and other goods that were
not made up into wearing apparel?-Not that I remember.
15,271. I thought you said you had dealt to some extent in cottons
and calicoes?-I got them from the south along with my other
goods.
15,272. Did you sometimes lay in a small stock of these?-Yes.
15,273. Have you never purchased any cotton, or [Page 387]
calicoes, or dress stuffs not made up, from people at your
counter?-I cannot recollect just now. I had a small book in
which I entered these purchases.
15,274. Have you got that book with you?-I have not seen it for
the last six months.
15,275. You will go for that book, and show it to me here?-Yes.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, LAURENCE THOMPSON, examined.
15,276. Are you a seaman in Lerwick?-I am.
15,277. Have you gone frequently on sealing and whaling voyages
from this port?-Yes.
15,278. By what agent, have you been engaged?-I have gone
from them all.
15,279. Did you have an account for outfit and supplies from the
agent who engaged you every time you went?-Yes.
15,280. When did you go first?-In 1858.
15,281. Did you go as a green hand then?-Yes.
15,282. Where did you get your outfit?-From Mr. Leask.
15,283. Did you settle for it at the end of the voyage?-Yes.
15,284. Did you manage to pay it up the first year?-Yes; and I
had 5s. clear.
15,285. Did you ask on that occasion for payment of part of your
earnings in cash?-Yes; when I came home I got the 5s. which I
had clear. I had had all the rest in goods.
15,286. Did you not want to let part of the goods stand on an
account?-No.
15,287. You wanted to pay it all up and to be clear?-Yes.
15,288. Did you continue to engage with Mr. Leask for some years
after that?-For two years; and then I went to Mr. Tait.
15,289. Why did you go to him then?-Partly because I wanted a
longer voyage; I wanted to go to Davis Straits.
15,290. Had Mr. Leask no ships going the long voyage that
year?-Yes.
15,291. Could you not have got a berth from him?-Yes, if I had
asked for it.
15,292. Why did you not ask for it?-I did not just incline.
15,293. Why did you not incline?-I had no particular reason for
it.
15,294. Had you run up an account with Mr. Leask the year
before?-Yes.
15,295. Had you left him clear?-Yes; and I had got £2 in cash.
15,296. Had you a second payment of oil-money to get that
year?-Yes.
15,297. Did you get payment of that in money?-Yes.
15,298. Was that before or after you had engaged with Mr. Tait?-
It was before.
15,299. How long did you continue with Mr. Tait?-I went five
voyages with him.
15,300. Did you get all your supplies during that time from him?-
Yes, whatever I asked or wanted.
15,301. Did you always get your balances paid to you in cash?-
Yes.
15,302. Had you no difficulty in getting that?-No; whenever I
asked them I always got them.
15,303. Were you not sometimes asked to take them in goods?-
No. They would ask you if you wanted anything, but that was all;
and I got my things as good there as at any other place.
15,304. Had you not, in one of these years, to ask more than once
for the money?-No, not to my recollection. If I asked for the
money I always got it.
15,305. Was it paid to you in Mr. Tait's office beside the shop?-
Yes. I went through the shop into the office, and Mr. Tait settled
with me there.
15,306. Did he or any of his people always ask you if you wanted
any goods when you went to get your settlement?-No, he did not
ask me; but sometimes they would ask me if I wanted anything
when I came out from settlement. We could either take it or leave
it, any way we liked.
15,307. In some of these years, were there a great number of men
going to Greenland?-Yes.
15,308. Were there sometimes more than there were berths for?-
Yes.
15,309. But you never lost a berth?-No; whenever I asked it I got
it.
15,310. Were you not known to the agents to be a good seaman,
and were you not always on good terms with them?-I never was
on bad terms with them, and I always got a berth when I wanted it.
15,311. But you always had an account with your agent?-Yes.
15,312. And a good lot of supplies?-Sometimes not very much,
but sometimes I had a good lot.
15,313. Do you think the fact of your having a pretty large account
had anything to do with your always getting a berth?-I don't
think it. Sometimes I would have a good account with one agent,
and go to another agent and get a ship from him.
15,314. Did you not always take your supplies principally from
the agent with whom you were engaging for the year?-Yes,
principally.
15,315. You were five years with Mr. Tait; that would be down to
1866: who did you go to then?-I went back to Mr. Leask.
15,316. Have you been engaged with him ever since?-No; I was
with Mr. Tulloch in 1868.
15,317. Why did you leave Mr. Leask at that time?-I don't know.
The ship was not in that I was going with, and I just shipped in
another one.
15,318. Did you take your supplies from Mr. Tulloch that year?-
Yes, whatever small things I wanted.
15,319. Had you been quite clear with Mr. Leask the year before,
and got payment of your balance in money?-Yes. I got paid in
the Custom House that year.
15,320. Was the amount of your account at Mr. Leask's shop
deducted when they paid you at the Custom House?-Yes.
15,321. Then it was merely the balance that was paid to you
there?-No; I got the full amount, and paid them back.
15,322. Did you go down to the shop and pay them back there?-
Yes.
15,323. Had you seen your account at the shop before?-Yes.
15,324. Is that the way in which you have been settled with ever
since?-Yes.
15,325. You see your account beforehand, and then go up to the
Custom House, get payment of the cash, and then you bring down
the money and settle your account?-Yes.
15,326. When you left the shop after seeing your account and went
up to the Custom House, were you told to come back and pay your
account the same day?-Yes.
15,327. You were always reminded of that?-Yes.
15,328. And when you came back to pay your account, were you
asked if you wanted any more goods?-No. I did not buy anything
unless I chose.
15,329. Do you generally get your last payment of oil-money in
cash, or in goods?-In cash; but if I want them, I can get it in
goods.
15,330. Do you sometimes want it in goods?-Sometimes we may
take some trifling things on it if we want them, but if not we get it
all in money.
15,331. Have you any reason to complain of having to go to the
Custom House and then to go down to the shop and pay your
money?-No.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JAMES COUTTS, recalled.
15,332. You have now produced to me the book containing
your transactions in the brokery line: are all [Page 388] your
transactions in that business entered there?-Yes, so far as I know.
15,333. These transactions do not appear to have amounted, on
the whole, to more than two or three per month on an average?-
There might be that in some months, but in other months there
would be nothing. It was a rare case when I bought anything in
that way at all; it was merely when anything was brought to me
that I thought worth buying.
15,334. Were these articles paid for in cash or in provisions?-
In cash first, and then the people might spend it in provisions
afterwards. I have seen me get all the money back again before
they went out.
15,335. Have you known many instances of knitters bringing
goods or articles of dress to you and selling them?-I never
questioned them about that. If they came with an article, I asked
their name and the price, but that was all. I have also asked them
if they were sure it was not stolen; I was very particular about that.
15,336. Have they ever told you that the goods they were selling
were goods that they had got for knitting?-I recollect them saying
once or twice that they had taken them for their hosiery, but they
took money from me when I bought the goods from them.
15,337. But they told you they had got these goods for hosiery?-
They had perhaps got them out of certain shops; but I believe they
had generally got them on credit, until they had something made
which would pay for them.
15,338. Were these women employed in knitting?-Yes; but there
were only one or two cases of that kind.
15,339. But you have known two or three cases in which women,
known to you to be knitters, came with goods in that way and sold
them?-Yes, they would say they had got them from so and so; but
I don't recollect any particular party.
15,340. Can you point to any of these transactions in the book?-
No; I don't recollect whether the articles that were entered in the
book were got from knitters or from other parties. Sometimes they
wanted cash for their goods, because they could not get cash at the
shop where they were dealing.
15,341. But, in these circumstances, the people who were refused
the cash got the goods, as you understood at the time?-Yes, I
understood so.
15,342. And they took the goods, and brought them to you and got
the cash?-Yes.
15,343. Did you know that these goods were got at a shop where
hosiery was taken?-I cannot tell; I never asked about that. They
may have said so but perhaps that might have been false.
15,344. Did they give the name of any party from whom they had
got the goods?-No; they just said they had got the goods when
they could not get the cash.
15,345. May that have been said half a dozen times?-Not so
many. I only recollect hearing of it once or twice.
15,346. Do you say that it has not happened half a dozen times in
the ten or eleven years that you have been in business?-I don't
recollect it happening so often as that. I just recollect hearing it
spoke about.
15,347. Do people sometimes come to you yet offering articles for
sale, although you have given up that part of your business?-Yes,
occasionally; but not so much now as before I gave it up.
15,348. Do you not sometimes take them still?-I don't think I
have taken any since the 1st entry in the book on April 15, 1870.
15,349. Are you quite sure that you have never bought any article
at all in your shop since then?-Not that I recollect.
15,350. Would you be likely to forget if you had done it?-I don't
know; but I have not done it, so far as my recollection goes. I
have once bought a jacket which I wore myself; but it was from a
friend, a party that I knew, and it was not a thing that I was in the
way of buying.
15,351. Can you swear that you have not had more than half a
dozen applications, in the whole course of your business, from
women whom you knew or supposed to be knitters, asking you to
give them money or provisions for goods which they had got for
their hosiery?-They never asked provisions for them. If they
wanted provisions, they took them out afterwards; they just asked
for the cash, and I gave them what I thought the article was worth
to me.
15,352. Do you swear that you have not had more than half a
dozen such applications in the course of your business?-I don't
recollect more than one or two. Of course, I did not ask them
pointedly where they had got the articles, or how they had got
them, except merely that I wished to know that the articles had
not been got in a dishonest way.
15,353. But I see that a great number of the entries in the book
relate to transactions with females?-Yes.
15,354. Can you swear that the majority of these women were not
knitters who were in the habit of dealing with hosiery shops, and
who came to you and got cash for the goods which they had got
there?-That might have been so, but I really cannot say.
15,355. Can you swear that one out of every two of these women
did not come and sell goods to you which she had got in that
way?-She might have got them in that way, but I cannot tell.
15,356. Were most of the purchases which you made, of new
articles or of old?-The greater part of the things had been worn.
15,357. Do you think there was any other way in which the
women got these articles, except by getting them from the hosiery
shops?-Certainly.
15,358. Were there some of them which had been got at the
agents' shops where the women were supplied, while the men
were away at the fishing?-They might have had accounts at these
shops, and got goods there in part payment for the men's wages.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, Mrs. BARBARA DALZELL, examined.
15,359. Do you live in Scalloway Road, Lerwick?-Yes.
15,360. Have you been in the habit of knitting and selling your
goods, or have you knitted with your own wool?-I have both
knitted with merchants' wool and with wool of my own.
15,361. Have you knitted for a long time, and had a great deal
of experience in it?-I have knitted for about thirty-two or
thirty-three years. During that time I have knitted mostly with
my own wool.
15,362. How have you been paid for your hosiery?-Either in
money or goods.
15,363. Have you ever been paid altogether in money?-Yes,
often.
15,364. Is it not the usual way in Lerwick to pay for hosiery in
goods only?-Yes, that is generally the way in which most of them
do.
15,365. Why has an exception been made in your case?-I don't
think any exception has been made with me. Whenever I brought
a good article to the merchants I asked money for it, and when I
thought it was an inferior article I never thought of asking for
money.
15,366. Was it generally very fine articles that you knitted?-Not
particularly fine, but I have sometimes knitted very fine articles.
15,367. Was it only for the very fine articles that you got the
money?-It was only for them that I asked the money.
15,368. How much was the largest sum you got at one time?-I
think I have got as much as £5 at one time from Mr. Arthur
Laurenson, but I am not sure; his books will show.
15,369. Did you get that money for one article?-Not for one
article. It was for a number.
15,370. Was it on an account with him that you got that?-Yes;
but I do not remember the exact sum.
[Page 389]
15,371. What did you get it for?-There was a cloak and several
other articles, and the balances upon several shawls which I had
been leaving with him.
15,372. For what purpose did you get so much money?-I cannot
remember exactly. I had a reason at the time for asking so much,
but I don't remember asking the money when I sold the articles.
15,373. But you had a special reason for wanting that money?-
Yes. I would rather not mention what it was, unless it is
necessary.
15,374. Did you tell Mr. Laurenson the reason?-Yes.
15,375. Did you get all the money that was due to you at that
time?-Yes. I sent a girl who was living in my house at the time
to Mr. Laurenson for the cash, and he sent the balance by her, and
a line along with it to show that he had paid it.
15,376. Was there not a discount taken off because you had got it
in cash?-There was nothing taken off.
15,377. What was the next largest sum that you got at any one
time?-I have got £3 at one time from Mr. Robert Linklater.
15,378. Was there any special reason for that?-I got it for a very
fine cloak which I sold to him.
15,379. Did you sell it to him for a money price?-I sold it, and
asked the money, and got it from him there and then.
15,380. Did you ever get as much as that on any other occasion?-
No; but I have often got £2, which is generally considered the
price of a good cloak.
15,381. Did you sell it to them for that in cash?-Yes.
15,382. Did you ever get money when you knitted for any
merchant
15,383. How much did you get then?-I can scarcely remember.
I knitted at one time for Mr. Gilbert Harrison, and I always got
money from him when I asked it, whether it was a large sum or a
small sum. The firm is now Harrison & Sons, but it was before
young Mr. Harrison's time that I got that money. I don't think they
deal in hosiery now; at least I have not dealt with them for a long
time.
15,384. Have you dealt with any other merchant and got money in
such large sums as that?-I once had a transaction with Mr. Wm.
Johnston, and I asked in money and £1 in goods, and I got it.
15,385. There was a letter sent to me in which it was stated that
you could tell me a story about a certain merchant in town: do you
know anything about that letter?-No. I was wondering who had
mentioned my name to you.
15,386. [Shown letter dated 9th January 1872, and signed W.
Linklater.] Do you know that handwriting?-I do not, but I know
what it refers to. It was merely a private thing that I was telling to
another party about having taken some hosiery to a merchant.
15,387. Do you know the party who writes the letter?-I don't
think I do.
15,388. What does the letter refer to?-I bought some stockings
from a merchant in Lerwick, and I was selling some shawls to him,
but he did not like to take hosiery in return for his stockings. He
said he would take one half money and one half shawls, and I went
home, and I think it was either 20s. or 30s. that I got from my
husband to pay one half of the price.
15,389. What quantity of hosiery had you bought?-I think it was
rather more than £2 worth.
15,390. Was that for your own family?-No. It was for a
party who had sent to me for some hosiery, and I went to that
merchant's shop for it.
15,391. Do you sometimes deal in hosiery yourself?-I sometimes
send work south, but I oftener sell it here. It is a long time since
that affair happened; and I think the price came to nearly £3, but I
don't remember the amount.
15,392. How long ago was it?-Perhaps 12 years ago, or perhaps
not so much.
15,393. Was it the practice at that time, as it is now, to pay for
hosiery in goods?-Yes.
15,394. But when you bought hosiery, was it understood you were
to pay for it in cash?-There was no understanding about it. I just
went to the shop for the stockings, and the merchant agreed to take
one half of the payment in hosiery and the other half in cash,
which I paid to him. I asked his reason for doing that, and he said
that by taking the hosiery it was turning his goods twice over for
only one profit.
15,395. Was that the only transaction you ever had with that
merchant?-I had plenty of transactions with him before, but
not many after.
15,396. Do you sometimes buy a great quantity of wool?-Yes;
but it is very difficult to get the best wool.
15,397. Where do you buy it?-Sometimes from country
merchants, generally from Fetlar. I get some worsted from
William Tulloch, Fetlar. I generally pay 4d. a cut for it. The
finest is 6d. a cut; that is the kind which is used in making fine
shawls and fine cloaks in Shetland.
15,398. You don't buy it in wool yourself, but in worsted?-Yes.
There are some of the people in Lerwick who buy it in fine wool,
and send it to the country to be spun, before they can get it really
fine.
15,399. Are they not able to buy the finest worsted in the shops in
Lerwick?-I never could do so.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, GEORGE JAMIESON, examined.
15,400. Have you a farm at North Roe, on the estate of Busta?-
Yes. I have only had one crop there.
15,401. Have you been a fisherman?-Yes, all my life.
15,402. Whom did you fish for?-I have fished for different
people in my time. When I was on Messrs. Hay's property I fished
for them; but they suspended me from fishing, and I would not go
again. They wanted to put me into a boat with some old men. I
would not agree to that, and I lost my fishing for four years.
15,403. Were you at liberty to fish for whom you pleased?-I was
not. They stopped other fish-curers from taking me during these
four years.
15,404. How did they do that?-I offered to go for different men,
and they would not take me for fear of Mr. Greig, Messrs. Hay's
factor at North Roe.
15,405. Are the tenants on the Gossaburgh estate bound to fish for
Messrs. Hay & Co.?-Yes. I was bound to do so all the time I was
there. One year I agreed with Mr. Anderson, Hillswick, to go to
the fishing for him, and I came with my share of fishing lines, but
he would not give his men a share of lines to make up the fishing
with; and he gave us an old boat that we would not risk our lives
in, and he would not give us any meal.
15,406. Are you also employed in keeping paupers?-Yes, I
have two old women-one from the parish of Lerwick, and
one from the parish of Northmaven. I have £8 for the one from
Northmaven. I only had 13s. for five months for the pauper who
belonged to Lerwick, but now they have given me 1s. 6d. a week,
which comes to £3, 18s. a year.
15,407. Who pays you these sums?-Mr. Greig.
15,408. Does he pay you for both the paupers?-Yes.
15,409. Does he keep the post office?-No; but they put the
money into his hands, and most of it has been taken out in truck.
He refuses to give me any money except a mere trifle.
15,410. Whom did you make your bargain about these paupers
with?-One was with Mr. Johnston of Lerwick, and the other
was with Mr. Bruce at Urrafirth.
15,411. Do you not receive post-office orders or money from Mr.
Bruce or Mr. Johnston for the maintenance of these paupers?-It
comes to Mr. Greig; I cannot say how it comes.
15,412. Have you ever asked that the money should be sent to you
direct?-No.
15,413. Is Mr. Greig a member of the parochial board of
Northmaven parish?-I believe he is.
[Page 390]
15,414. But he is not a member of the Lerwick parochial board?-
No.
15,415. How does he happen to pay you money for Lerwick
parish?-They send it to him.
15,416. Have you ever asked him for the whole of that money in
cash?-No.
15,417. Why?-Because he seemed that he would not pay it in
cash.
15,418. How did he seem so?-He said he would not do so, and
that there was no use of him taking the trouble if I would not take
the greater part of it out in truck.
15,419. When did he say that to you?-He has said it to me
several times. He said it some time after I got the first pauper,
who belonged to Northmaven. That is about two years back.
15,420. Did he say it to you when you went for the first
payment?-Yes.
15,421. Had you not run up an account at his shop before the
money was due?-I had not.
15,422. Did you owe him anything then?-I owed him nothing.
He was my landmaster then, but I did not owe him anything.
15,423. Is that money paid quarterly?-It is paid monthly here.
15,424. Did you ever ask Mr. Greig for a monthly payment in
cash?-I did not.
15,425. Why?-I cannot tell. I suppose it was because we always
had his shop to go to for things that we required for the paupers,
and we thought we need not ask for cash.
15,426. Were you not always due him as much as the monthly
payment before it became due?-I was not.
15,427. Were you not due him something?-Yes, a small thing,
but not the whole of the money.
15,428. Did you ever ask him for the balance in money?-Yes.
15,429. Did you get it?-Yes.
15,430. Then, when was it that Mr. Greig said he could not give
it to you in money, but that you must take it out in truck?-Just
when they sent the paupers to me.
15,431. Are you sure there was not something due to Mr. Greig
then for supplies to the paupers?-There was nothing due.
15,432. Had you not got any supplies from him for these women
before the first payment was due?-Yes, I got what I wanted
whenever I asked it.
15,433. Then there was something due to him for that?-Yes; he
never refused to give me anything for them as soon as I came for
it.
15,434. There was something due to him for these supplies at the
time when the first monthly payment became due?-Yes, but not
to the whole amount of it.
15,435. Why did you say that you were not due him anything?-I
had to take out the things because I could not get the money.
15,436. Did you ask him for the balance?-I did.
15,437. How much was there due to you at that time?-I cannot
tell, because we don't keep accounts.
15,438. Have you no pass-book?-No.
15,439. Did Mr. Greig actually say to you that you must take your
payment in truck?-He said we must take part of it in truck, and
that he would not pay it all in money.
15,440. Did he use the word truck?-Yes.
15,441. Did he not say that you were to take part of it in goods?-
Goods were the same as truck, and he meant that we were to take
meal or tea, or anything, out of his shop.
15,442. But what did he actually say?-He said we must take
goods out of his shop for part of the money, because he could not
pay it all in money. He said that the first time I went to him.
15,443. When did he say it again?-He said it very often.
15,444. When did he say it last?-This winter.
15,445. Where did he say it?-In his shop at North Roe.
15,446. Were you asking for money at that time?-Yes. I asked
him then for the 13s. which came for the pauper from Lerwick,
and he said he would give me that, but that he need not have the
trouble of paying it all down in money.
15,447. Had you not got a lot of supplies at that time?-No.
15,448. Do you swear that, when you asked him for the 13s., you
were owing him nothing for supplies?-I was owing him nothing.
15,449. Had you got any supplies from him before that?-I had got
nothing from him for the pauper from Lerwick.
15,450. But had you got supplies for your own household?-I had;
but I was due him nothing.
15,451. Had all the supplies that you had got from Mr. Greig for
other parties up to that time been paid for?-They were all paid
for when I asked for the 13s.
15,452. Had you any account due at the-shop at that time?-I
cannot tell. I don't think it. There could be nothing due.
15,453. You said just now that all the supplies you had ever got
were paid for at that time?-They were paid for.
15,454. And then you say in the next sentence that you cannot say
whether they were paid for or not?-I asked for nothing for this
woman until the came.
15,455. Do you keep a separate account for every woman that you
have?-I believe we do.
15,456. Do you know anything about your accounts?-I don't
know a great deal about them.
15,457. Are you sure that Mr. Greig has told you that you must
take part of your payment for the paupers in goods?-Yes.
15,458. Is not all that he has done merely to keep part of the
money that was already due to him for supplies which you had
got?-He said he would not pay it all in money. That is all I
have got to say about it.
15,459. Did he not say that he would not give it all to you in
money because you were due him something for supplies you
had already got?-I was never due Mr. Greig anything.
15,460. Had you not got supplies from him before he said that?-I
had got supplies, but they never ran up to the sum which I had to
get payment of from him. There was always money due to me.
15,461. Were you ever due Mr. Greig anything at all?-I was not.
15,462. Did you not owe him money for the supplies you had
got?-We never sought supplies that would run up to the sum
which we had to get. There was always something in his hand.
15,463. Do you understand what it is to be due a man money?-
Yes.
15,464. Do you understand that you are due a man money when
you have got goods from him and not paid for them?-I know that.
15,465. Were you not due Mr. Greig money when you had got
these goods and had not paid for them?-I was.
15,466. Was it not at the time when you were due him money for
these supplies that he said he could not give you the money which
was due for the paupers?-He said, first of all, that we were not to
ask all money when we were due him for goods.
15,467. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing.
15,468. You have given your evidence in such a manner, that I
cannot allow you any expenses for attending here.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT IRVINE, examined.
15,469. Are you a broker in Lerwick?-I am a general dealer. I
deal in new as well as second-hand goods.
[Page 391]
15,470. Do you deal in provisions?-Very little; mostly in soft
goods.
15,471. Do you make many purchases of soft goods and wearing
apparel over your counter?-Of wearing apparel, but not of
hosiery.
15,472. Do you sometimes purchase articles which are not made
up, such as cotton?-Yes, and new articles too. If a man buys an
article that does not fit him, and he comes back to me with it, I
will take it from him and sell him another, or give him the cash.
15,473. Is this [showing] the book in which you enter all your
transactions?-Yes.
15,474. Are women in the practice of selling goods to you which
they have got in the shops?-There is very little of that done. I
cannot say that I ever recollect a case of it.
15,475. Have you many transactions with women?-Very few. It
is mostly men's apparel that I get.
15,476. I see that in your book most of the entries are in the names
of men?-Yes; I always deal with men, except on rare occasions.
15,477. Are you the only broker of this kind in Lerwick?-I think I
am the principal one; I have a licence as a broker.
15,478. Can you say that you have not had any transactions with
women who might have been knitters, and who were disposing of
goods which they had got for their hosiery?-I cannot tell exactly.
Sometimes they may have come in with goods which they had got
in that way, but it is very little of that kind of thing that comes my
way.
15,479. Have you had many dealings with women whom you knew
to be knitters?-Very few. I don't know that I recollect a single
case. As I have said, it is generally men's work that I get.
15,480. Do you enter every transaction which you have in the book
which you have produced?-Every one.
15,481. Is it not possible that some purchases of that kind from
women are not entered in it?-No; I do not want to omit them,
because I want to punish them if they are rogues.
15,482. But these women will be perfectly honest in making such
sales?-Yes, but I don't think there has ever been such a case in
my business.
15,483. Have you ever bought any lines from women?-I never
saw one offered; and even if it had been offered, I would not have
bought it or meddled with it at all.
15,484. Do you know anything at all about the lines?-I don't
recollect ever seeing one in my life because I am not in the way
of it.
15,485. Have you heard of them?-I have heard of them
repeatedly.
15,486. I suppose the trade of a broker is not a very flourishing one
in Lerwick?-No, it is very dull; but I am a dealer also, and can
make up things otherwise, which helps me through.
15,487. Do you know whether that business of buying second-hand
articles is practised by any people who act as hawkers and who
hawk through the country?-I don't know of any people who do
that.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, FRANCIS GIFFORD, examined.
15,488. Are you a seaman, living in Bressay?-I am.
15,489. Have you gone on sealing and whaling voyages for a good
many years?-Yes, I went there during the first years of my time,
and then I went south; but afterwards I have been at the sealing
and whaling again.
15,490. Have you always engaged with some agent in Lerwick?-
Yes, I have engaged with them all except Mr. Tulloch; I never
went out from him.
15,491. Have you always received payment of your wages on your
return from the voyage?-Yes, for the last three or four years I
have always got my money at the Custom House.
15,492. Before the regulations were introduced according to which
you were paid at the Custom House, did you settle with the agent
at his shop?-Yes.
15,493. Did you always get your money on these occasions?-Not
exactly.
15,494. Had you an account then for outfit and supplies?-Yes.
15,495. Did you always get the balance that was due?-Yes, I got
it, but very little money.
15,496. Was that because you had a large account?-I don't know.
15,497. Do you remember some years ago being engaged by Mr.
Joseph Leask on a voyage to what is called the west-ice?-Yes.
15,498. Is that in Davis Straits?-No, it is to the northward.
15,499. Do you remember applying for your wages in money in
that year?-Yes.
15,500. Did you get it at once whenever you asked for it?-Yes.
15,501. Did you sail in the same vessel again that year?-Yes; but
Mr. Leask was not for me going in her again, because I had got my
money. If it had not been for the captain I would not have got with
the vessel, but he said he would have me. The vessel was the
'Camperdown,' and that occurred in 1866.
15,502. What was Mr. Leask's reason for not engaging you for that
vessel?-I don't know.
15,503. You said it was because you got your money?-I believe
Mr. Leask thought I was for the double voyage, but I was only for
the single voyage; and when I came home after the first voyage I
got settled with him, because at that time I was intending to go
south. I came over and got my money, but before the end of the
week the vessel returned again, going to Davis Straits, and I went
up to see if I could get a chance to go in her. When Captain Bruce
told me to go and get my things and come with the vessel again,
Mr. Leask was wild, and said I should not get a chance.
15,504. Had you intended at first not to go on the second voyage
that year?-I was anxious to go but I did not know that the Captain
was to put me down for the double voyage.
15,505. Why was Mr. Leask wild?-I don't know; I suppose it was
because he thought I was only for the single voyage, and I came
over and got my money.
15,506. Would he not have given you your money if he had known
you were going the other voyage?-I believe he would not.
15,507. How did you happen to ask for your money at that time?
Is it not usual to ask for it after the first voyage?-When the men
go for a single voyage, which lasts for about six weeks, they are
cleared off when they go home; but when they go for the double
voyage they cannot get their money until the end of the season.
Mr. Leask thought I was shipped for the double voyage and that I
would come over and draw the whole of my money at one time;
but of course I did not know myself that I was for the double
voyage until the captain came again and put me down for it.
15,508. Do men never draw their money at the end of the first
voyage except when they are done with the ship for that season?-
They do it now. As soon as their six weeks are over and they
come back again, they draw their money; but they did not do that
before.
15,509. Was it always the practice before to make only one
settlement for the long voyage?-Yes.
15,510. Have you always got your money since 1866?-Yes.
15,511. Have you also incurred an account at the same time with
the agent who engaged you?-Yes.
15,512. How is it settled?-It was settled at the end of the season.
15,513. Was it read over to you before you went up to the Custom
House to get payment of your money?-Yes.
15,514. Was the balance written out in the books before you went
up?-Yes.
[Page 392]
15,515. You went up and got your money from the Custom House
from the agent or his clerk, and then you came down to the shop
and paid your account?-Yes.
15,516. When you went to the shop in the first place, were you
always told to come back and pay your account?-Yes.
15,517. Who tells you to do that?-The agent.
15,518. Have you always had your account clear at the end of the
season, or have you sometimes been in debt to the shop?-I have
always been clear.
15,519. Do you know that young hands are sometimes in debt to
the shop at the end of the season?-Yes.
15,520. Has there sometimes been a difficulty in getting berths in
the sealing and whaling vessels, in consequence of more men
applying than were wanted?-Yes.
15,521. What kind of men are preferred in such circumstances;
is it the best quality of men?-There are generally all sorts of
hands-green hands, and able seamen, and ordinary seamen of all
kinds.
15,522. When a man is in debt to an agent, do you think he has
any better chance of getting a berth?-My partners think so. They
think that if a man is in debt the agent will perhaps try to get him
into a vessel, in order that he may be able to clear off his debt.
15,523. Do you know that they have done that?-Yes, I have seen
it.
15,524. What have you seen?-I have seen agents getting men
who were in their debt put into their ships.
15,525. Have you heard the captains complaining of the agents
putting inferior men upon them for that reason?-I have. Captain
Bruce of the 'Camperdown,' complained about that in 1866. He
said to the men that Mr. Leask was putting hands into the ship that
he did not like, and that he would have liked better hands.
15,526. Did he state the reason why he supposed Mr. Leask was
doing that?-He did not tell us about the reason.
15,527. Then how did you know that that was the reason why Mr.
Leask had put in inferior hands?-I knew they were men who were
in debt to him.
15,528. Did you know that from the men themselves?-Yes, I
knew it from several men; but I don't remember their names-
they were men on board the 'Camperdown' that year along with
me.
15,529. Did they tell you that their being in debt had given them a
better chance of a berth?-Yes; and that when they were in debt
they got a ship.
15,530. Was that a general understanding among them?-Yes.
15,531. Did you know of any better men who wished to go in that
ship, but who were refused because they were not in debt?-No;
but I know that if men are debt to the agent they will get a ship
sooner than those who are clear with him.
15,532. But you have always got a ship although you were not in
debt?-Yes.
15,533. Are you an able seaman?-Yes, I am a boat-steerer.
15,534. Do harpooneers and boat-steerers get a higher wage, and
are they more sure of getting a berth than ordinary seamen?-Yes,
they get higher wages, and are more in demand.
15,535. On the occasion you spoke of, when you went in the
'Camperdown' with Captain Bruce, it was to the captain that
you owed your engagement, and not to the agent?-Yes.
15,536. If the agent had had his own way, would you have been
engaged?-I would not.
15,537. Had you an account with the agent at that time?-No, I
had some more money to get from him.
15,538. Had he not paid you up the whole of the money that
was due to you on the sealing voyage?-No; there was a second
payment of oil-money which I had to get.
15,539. Is it quite understood among the whalers, that when their
money is paid to them at the Custom House they have to go down
to the shops and pay it to the agents?-Yes; they quite understand
that they have to clear the agent's books.
15,540. I suppose a man would not think of letting his account
stand any longer?-No.
15,541. What would be the consequence if he did that?-I cannot
say.
15,542. Would he get a berth next year?-He might get a berth
next year, but it is best to have the books cleared.
15,543. But suppose a man had other accounts due, would he have
to go and pay the agent first, and let his other accounts wait?-I
don't know about that.
15,544. Does not a man go and pay the agent first, whether he has
other people wanting his money or not?-As a rule, they go and
pay the agent first.
15,545. Have you heard any of the men complain that they had to
pay the agents in preference to other accounts which they wished
to settle?-No.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, PETER HALCROW, examined.
15,546. Are you a seaman?-Yes.
15,547. Have you gone on sealing and whaling voyages for some
years back?-Yes, for nine years.
15,548. What agents in Lerwick have you been engaged by?-The
whole of them.
15,549. Did you always get your outfit from the agent you engaged
with?-Yes, the most part of it.
15,550. And you settled your account with him at the end of the
year?-Yes.
15,551. Had you always a balance to receive in money?-
Generally. Once I had not; that was in my second year.
15,552. Have you always got any money that was due to you paid
in cash?-No.
15,553. When did you not?-The first year I was out.
15,554. Was there something due to you that year?-Yes,
15,555. Did you ask for it to be paid to you?-Yes, at different
times; but I did not get it. I was told that the agent had not got it
himself, and that therefore I could not get it.
15,556. When did you return that year?-On 1st October.
15,557. How long was it after that before you got your money
paid?-I never got it paid at all. I had to take goods for it out of
Mr. Leask's shop.
15,558. Were you told to take goods?-No, he did not tell me to
take them; but I had to take them when I could not get the money.
I was in need of them.
15,559. Did you want the goods?-Yes, I was requiring things, and
I got them there.
15,560. Did he say that you had better take goods, as the money
had not come?-No, he did not say that. He only said it was not
come every time I came and asked for it, and as I could not wait
longer I just took the things I had to get.
15,561. How long was it after you returned before you began to
take the goods?-About a month or five weeks.
15,562. How often had you asked for the money within that
time?-Three or four times.
15,563. Were you offered the goods?-No, I was never offered
them until I asked for them.
15,564. Did you say anything about not getting your money to the
agent or any of his people?-No, I did not say anything.
15,565. Are you sure there was £4 due to you at that time?-
There was £4, 10s. due when we left home from the owners, and
30s. from the Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund, because we were
shipwrecked.
15,566. Then there was no oil-money that year?-None.
15,567. Did you not get the payment from the Shipwrecked
Mariners' Fund in cash?-No.
15,568. Did you apply for it in cash?-Yes; I applied at the shop
for it, and I got a very little cash, perhaps about £1 at one time and
another-not all at once.
[Page 393]
15,569. Have you ever taken part of your earnings in goods since
then?-Yes, I have done so almost every year that I have been out.
15,570. But that was just in the account which you opened when
you went away?-Yes.
15,571. Did your people get any advances when you were absent
from the agent with whom you shipped?-Yes; a little.
15,572. And they get any supplies anywhere else?-They generally
got them from the agent.
15,573. Why was that?-I don't know; they just got them there.
15,574. Do you not get a month's advance when you leave?-We
get a month's advance now. We don't get the money before we
leave, but we get a ticket to be paid three days after the ship sails.
We generally give it to the agent, and get a little money on it, but
not to the full amount of the advance.
15,575. Do you not leave that ticket at home?-Some of the men
leave them at home, and the value of them is got afterwards.
15,576. Why do you not do that?-Because I may want the money
before I go away, and I get a part of it from the agent.
15,577. In that case you have to leave your ticket with the
agent?-Yes, we have to give it up to him.
15,578. Do you not get allotment tickets when you leave?-I don't
know them.
15,579. Can you not get half-pay tickets if you want them?-Yes.
15,580. Is it not the practice to get them?-Sometimes they get
them if they ask for them.
15,581. Do you take them?-No.
15,582. Why?-I don't know. We generally just get what we
want in money or in goods, as we ask for it.
15,583. Do the agents give these half-pay tickets whenever they
are asked for?-Yes.
15,584. Would they prefer you not to take them, but to take goods
instead?-I don't know about that. I have not been told so.
15,585. Did you hear the evidence of Francis Gifford?-Yes.
15,586. Do you think what he said was generally correct?-I think
so.
15,587. Was he correct in what he said about a man who was in
debt to the agent getting a berth more readily than another?-Yes.
15,588. Have you known that in your own experience?-I got a
ship when I was in debt in my second year.
15,589. Do you think you got it more easily because you were in
debt?-I cannot say for that.
15,590. Have you heard men speaking about getting a ship more
easily when they were in debt?-I have heard them talking about
it, but still I don't know about it myself except on that one
occasion.
15,591. Have you known any case like that which Francis Gifford
mentioned, of inferior men being put on board a ship because they
were in the agent's debt, in preference to better men?-I never
knew of that, but still it may have happened. I wish to say that in
1866 I shipped in the 'Diana' of Hull, for the west ice in Davis
Straits, and when we were out I was beset in her for thirteen
months, and for seven months we were on short allowance. We
have never been paid for that short allowance, although the men
in Hull were paid for it.
15,592. Have you applied for that?-There is a man here who has
applied for it. I think he applied to Mr. Charles Duncan, writer,
and also to the sheriff.
15,593. Who was the agent from whom you thought you should
have got it?-Mr. Leask.
15,594. Did you apply to him for the difference which you ought
to have got in consequence of being put upon short allowance?-
Yes; and he told us it was no use applying for it, because he did
not think we would get it. I never asked Mr. Leask about that
myself, but other men in Lerwick have done it.
15,595. Did they mention to him that the Hull men had got the
difference paid to them?-Yes.
15,596. Did Mr. Leask offer to do anything for you in that case?-
Not as far as I know; but I was away from home at the time when
the men applied for it.
15,597. Do you think that has anything to do with your dealings
at Mr. Leask's shop?-I don't think so, but I suppose Mr. Leask
could have applied for it if he had liked.
15,598. Had you an account with him that year which you settled
as usual at the end of the season?-Yes.
15,599. Did you not apply for the difference on the short
allowance when you were settling that account?-Yes. They
told me then that they did not know but what they might get it
for us, but still they did not say that we would get it, and it has
not come yet.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM LAURENSON, examined.
15,600. Are you a seaman living in Bressay?-Yes. I have been at
the sealing and whaling for thirty-six years. I have got settled, and
got my wages paid to me at the Custom House for some years
back, but that was not done when I first went.
15,601. Before you were paid at the Custom House, did you not
get payment of your wages?-I got no satisfaction of them. I very
often did not see an account. I would come over from Bressay two
or three different times wanting to get settled, but they would
shove me off time after time, giving me perhaps 10s. or £1; but
they would not settle with me.
15,602. Were you owing an account for supplies at that time?-
I got supplies from the shop when I went on the voyage, but I
always had balances of money to get. I never was in debt.
15,603. By what agents were you treated in that way?-They are
long dead now.
15,604. Did that not continue till 1867, when the new regulations
came into force, according to which you were paid at the Custom
House?-Yes; the system continued much the same until then.
15,605. Were you put off in the same way from time to time down
till 1867?-Yes; perhaps getting £1 or 10s. now and again.
15,606. What agents were you engaged by, five or six years ago?-
I was engaged by Mr. Tait, and I was three years for Mr. Tulloch;
but I was paid at the Custom House then.
15,607. Were you often engaged by Mr. Tait before 1867?-I
would be engaged by him perhaps two years at a time, and then I
would leave him and go to another, and then go back to him again.
15,608. Who else did you engage with?-I went out a long time
for Messrs. Hay, and I was with Mr. Leask too.
15,609. When you went, until five years ago, to get a settlement of
your account, were you always put off with £1 or 10s., or some
supplies, if you wanted them?-I was put off now and again.
15,610. Did all the agents who employed you treat you in the same
way?-Almost every one.
15,611. Did you not get a settlement with Messrs. Hay when you
asked for it?-Yes; I got a fair settlement with Messrs. Hay when I
went out from their shop.
15,612. Were you ever put off in the way you have mentioned
when you were engaged by them?-No; and I was engaged by
them for ten years.
15,613. When you went to Mr. Tait, did he settle with you when
you asked for it, even before the new system?-Yes.
15,614. Did he ever put you off in that way?-No. I was out of his
shop when his father was alive, and he settled with me in the same
way.
15,615. Had you ever to ask him twice for your money?-No.
15,616. Did you get a settlement whenever you went there for
it?-Yes.
15,617. Did you always get your money in full when you went
over to ask for it from Mr. Leask?-I got what was due to me; but
I generally had some things out of the shop before I went, and then
I got the balance.
[Page 394]
15,618. Could you always get it at once without any difficulty?-
Yes; I just asked for it and I got it.
15,619. Then who were the agents who put you off in the way you
mentioned?-They are all dead long ago.
15,620. I thought you said the system of putting you off in that
way, and of giving you £1 or 10s. at a time, continued till about
five or six years ago?-Sometimes it did, and sometimes not.
Some years I never got a fair account, and in other years I did.
15,621. But you always got a fair account from Messrs. Hay?-
Yes.
15,622. And from Mr. Leask?-Yes.
15,623. And from Mr. Tait and Mr. Tulloch?-Yes.
15,624. What agents were there besides these, five or six years
ago?-It is far longer than five or six years since I was put off in
that way, and did not get the settlement when I wanted it.
15,625. Will it be ten years since you asked for your money and
did not get it?-It will be ten years, or above that.
15,626. Will it be fifteen or twenty years ago?-It will be from
fifteen to twenty years.
15,627. Are you a harpooneer or a boat-steerer?-I am a
boat-steerer.
15,628. Did you hear the evidence of Francis Gifford?-Yes.
15,629. Do you think he was generally correct in what he said?-
Yes. I know quite well that men who were in debt to the agent
could get a ship sooner than I could, who was clear with them.
15,630. Could a man do that although he was not so good a
seaman?-Yes.
15,631. Was that a general belief among the men?-Yes. For my
part, I never was indebted to any of the agents, and therefore I got
a ship whenever wanted it.
15,632. Did you get a ship because you were not in debt?-Yes; it
did not matter. I stayed in one ship for a long time.
15,633. Were the agents more willing to get a berth for a man who
was not in their debt?-No.
15,634. Did they prefer to engage a man who was in their debt?-
Yes; but there were not very many that would be in debt. Perhaps
a young hand, who had been a year or two only at the whaling, and
had small wages, would be in debt, and they would take him next
year in order to clear off the accounts which he had left the year
before.
15,635. Do you think the green hands were ready to get into debt
in order to make sure of getting a berth next year?-I don't know
about that.
15,636. Then what did you mean by saying that you never were in
debt, and therefore you always got berth when you wanted it?-I
only meant to say that always got a ship when I wanted one, but
that I never was in debt to the agents; and therefore I cannot prove
whether they would take me more readily if I was in debt. But I
have heard the men saying that those who were in debt would be
shipped as soon as the others.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ELIZABETH MORRISON, examined.
15,637. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.
15,638. What do you do?-Anything that I can. I go errands or
knit stockings, or anything of that sort.
15,639. Do you sometimes go about selling things?-I have sold
three or four neckties to different people.
15,640. Do you not sell other kinds of goods?-No. If I sell
anything, it is of my own.
15,641. Do you sell shop goods of different kinds?-No.
15,642. Do you mean that you do not go about the country and
hawk goods?-I don't do that.
15,643. Did you ever get any shop goods from a knitter for the
purpose of selling them or exchanging them for other things?-
No; the neckties I sold I got ready money for.
15,644. It is not neckties I am speaking about at all. Have you
not sold goods that you had got from knitting women for that
purpose?-No, not for some years past.
15,645. Did you once do that?-Yes, some time ago.
15,646. How long ago?-I cannot remember.
15,647. A year ago?-It is about that.
15,648. Did you not make a living sometimes by getting goods
from knitters and selling them again in the country?-No; I never
was out of Lerwick in my time.
15,649. Did you sell them in Lerwick?-I sold some bits of
dribblets of things that were not worth mentioning; but that
was some time ago.
15,650. What was it that you sold?-It may have been three yards
of cotton, or such as that.
15,651. Did you get such things pretty often from knitters?-No, not often.
15,652. When did you get them last?-It was a long time ago.
15,653. Was it six months ago?-It would be above that.
15,654. Would it be twelve months since you got anything of that
kind to sell?-I cannot say.
15,655. You said you had perhaps sold three yards of cotton:
whom did you sell it for?-I cannot remember.
15,656. Whom did you get it from?-I cannot remember.
15,657. Have you got it more than once?-Perhaps once or twice;
but it is a long time ago now.
15,658. Do you think you may have got it three or four times?-I
don't think I did.
15,659. What else did you get besides the three yards of cotton?-
Nothing.
15,660. Did you never get a bit of cloth for a dress?-No.
15,661. Or a jacket?-No.
15,662. Or a pair of boots?-No.
15,663. Did you ever get any tea or sugar to sell?-No.
15,664. Do you swear that?-I do.
15,665. Do you swear that you never sold a quarter pound of tea in
your life?-I do.
15,666. Did you never sell any sugar?-No.
15,667. Did you ever buy any except out of a shop?-I never
bought any except what I bought out a shop for my ready penny.
15,668. Did you ever tell anybody that you had sold things for
knitters?-No, I could not tell any one that.
15,669. Did you get that cotton from a woman who had got it for
her knitting?-I don't know in what way she may have got it, but I
got it from a woman. Who she was I cannot say, because she
picked me up in the street and gave it to me.
15,670. Did you get it sold for her?-I did. I don't remember who
bought it; it was some country person.
15,671. Do you not remember who the woman was that you got it
from?-I cannot remember.
15,672. Did you know her?-I did not know her.
15,673. In what way did she ask you to sell it for her?-She asked
me if I could get anybody to buy it, and I saw a country woman at
my side, and she bought it.
15,674. Why did the woman ask you to get it sold?-I don't know.
15,675. Had you never seen her before?-Neither before nor since.
15,676. Have you any idea why she asked you to sell it?-No, I
have no idea of that.
15,677. Do you think she had ever seen you doing the like
before?-There is many an old person such as me who does
errands for many a one.
15,678. Have you done errands of that kind at other times?-Yes,
years and years ago.
15,679. May you have done so a good many times?-I don't know.
It was very seldom I did it.
15,680. What did you get for that cotton?-I cannot remember
now.
15,681. Was it money you got for it?-Yes.
[Page 395]
15,682. Did you pay the woman you got it from at the time?-Yes.
15,683. Had you not paid her for it before you sold it?-I gave her
the money just as I got it from the woman at my side.
15,684. How long was it between the time when you got the cotton
and the time when you sold it?-Perhaps a minute or five or ten
minutes. The woman was just at my hand who bought it.
15,685. Why could the woman who gave it to you not have sold it
herself?-I don't know.
15,686. How much did she give you for selling it?-A penny.
15,687. Did you ever get a penny for selling anything else?-No; I
don't work in that way for my living.
15,688. Are you sure you never got a penny for selling any other
article for a woman?-I have got many a penny at different times,
but not in that exact way.
15,689. What else do you do for your living?-I live very meanly.
15,690. But do you never get any more than a penny for doing an
errand now and then?-I have no idea of doing errands only for
my living.
15,691. Is there anything else by which you make a living, except
by going errands?-I am not going errands for ever. I sometimes
sit and knit a stocking in my own room; that is all I do.
15,692. Do you sell your stockings?-No; they are just for myself.
15,693. Then they will not make it living for you?-No; but
perhaps some of my friends might lift a hand to help me.
15,694. Do you live on charity?-Not altogether on charity.
15,695. You do run an errand for a penny now and then?-No, not
I.
15,696. Why are you reluctant to tell me the truth?-I am not
denying the truth.
15,697. You are not willing to answer my questions: why is
that?-I have answered them so far as I know, and as far as I
am able. I have no more to say than I have told you, and I have
told you all the truth.
15,698. You say you do not make your living by charity, and you
only get a penny now and then for running errands, but that is very
seldom: is there any other way in which you make your living?-
When a person wishes to lift their hand to me in charity, I take
what they have to give me.
15,699. Do you swear that you don't make the principal part of
your living by selling things in the town?-I don't make my living
by that.
15,700. Do you swear that you don't sell something every day?-I
don't sell something every day.
15,701. Don't you sell two or three things every week?-No; I am
quite sure of that.
15,702. Have you sold anything this week?-No.
15,703. Did you sell anything last week or the week before?-No.
15,704. Did you sell anything last year?-I cannot remember what
I did last year, for my memory is quite gone.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, WILLIAM B.M. HARRISON, examined.
15,705. Are you a partner of the firm of Harrison & Sons?-I am.
15,706. Your firm, I believe, are extensively engaged in the Faroe
fishing?-Yes.
15,707. In what form is the agreement you enter into with the men
for that fishing?-The men agree, in the first place, to prosecute
the fishing in a certain vessel, and to join the vessel any day when
we may call upon them to do so, and proceed to the fishing to
either Faroe, Iceland, Rockall, or any other place that the master
may think most expedient, and to stay there as long as the master
thinks fit, with the exception of the trips they may make home for
landing any fish they may catch, or in case of accident or for
any other good reason; in consideration of which services the
fishermen have to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish
caught, after deducting the expenses of curing, etc., such as
master's premium, 10s. per ton, mate's premium 2s. 6d. per ton,
and the cost of bait required for catching the fish. Along with that
the men have to get eight pounds of bread per man per week and
9d. per score for the fish which each man takes, one half to be
paid by the owners and the other half by the crew. That is the
substance of the agreement. And then there are clauses for our
safety, having reference to damage that may be done to the vessel
or her gear, which the men bind themselves to pay for.
15,708. Is there a scale of victualling for the men in case the
vessel goes to Iceland?-Yes. The agreement binds the men to
fish according to it until the 20th August; and the next clause says
that if the master or owner sees fit to leave Faroe for Iceland or for
a late voyage, then the men agree to go upon the victuals and
wages which are stated in the agreement.
15,709. Then in addition to the stipulations in the agreement, I
understand the owner receives a commission of five per cent. on
the whole proceeds of the voyage?-He is entitled to get it if he
can, but very often we don't get it. This year we have got nothing.
15,710. Was that because the men objected to it?-We always try
to pay as high as other people; but this year we have not made
such good sales, and therefore we have not taken anything off, so
that we might be able to give as much per ton as other people give.
In other years, again, we may get two and a half or we may get five
per cent, just as the fish sales turn out; and the men don't object to
us getting it if we can.
15,711. Why is there no stipulation for a commission put into the
agreement?-It has never been put into our agreements from the
first.
15,712 Is it a usual thing to take it?-Yes, it is quite usual if we
can get it; but we have to bear and haul with other people, and if
the men would be dissatisfied with us taking it we have to give it
up, and we would rather do so than have any words about it.
15,713. Was this not a good year in the Faroe fishing?-No, very
indifferent.
15,714. What was the amount of a share in one of your smacks
with an average take this year?-I should say about £18.
15,715. Was that sum larger than the ordinary, or would some of
them be less or more?-We had some of them as high as £28 for a
sharesman.
15,716. Were these in the larger smacks?-No; there were others
as large, but less fortunate; and there were some of them much
smaller, and they could not be expected to do so well.
15,717. Do the men ever ask for or get a sight of the bills of
sale?-Yes. I have shown them to the fishermen this year.
15,718. Had you ever shown them to them before?-Yes. I
had not shown them to every man, but I had shown them to the
captain, who I expected would have more knowledge of the matter
than the other men.
15,719. Do the men generally run accounts at your shop?-Yes;
every one of them has an account.
15,720. Do you think they get most of the supplies for their
families during the season from your shop?-I think they do.
Perhaps there are two or three of them who want to look after
their means better than the rest, and who have money lying beside
them: these men may perhaps buy goods with cash, and not from
our shop; but, as a rule, every one of them gets his supplies from
us.
15,721. I believe the majority of your men are not in debt to you at
settlement, but have a balance to receive in cash?-Yes. I think
there are very few this year, and there were very few last year, who
were in debt; and even with these men the amount of debt is very
small.
15,722. Do you think the amount of debt was smaller than usual in
the two years for which you have given [Page 396] returns, 1867
and 1871, or was it about an average?-That depends altogether
upon the fishing. If it is not a total failure, the men are generally
all clear of debt; but if a bad year comes in, then we cannot expect
that.
15,723. How do you account for the fact that the men almost all
take their supplies for the season from your shop in an account
with you?-If they have no money, it is not likely that other people
will give them supplies, unless they know them very well; and
even if they have money, I always find that the men prefer to keep
it and come to the shop again and take up goods.
15,724. Do they keep the money in their hands rather than pay
for the goods in cash when they get them?-Yes, invariably. I
have frequently noticed that practice among the men, and I have
spoken to them about it. I have paid as much as £20 to a man at
settlement, and then he would come into the shop and take out his
outfit. I have asked them why they did so, and told them it would
be better for them to pay for their goods with their own money,
and then they would know what they were doing.
15,725. What was their answer to that?-They said they preferred
to keep the money. It was always in their hand, and the goods
could stand over for a year; and perhaps, if the next year's fishing
is bad, they think we will allow it to stand for two years rather than
push them for the price.
15,726. Would the men not get their goods cheaper if a system
existed of paying in cash?-I don't think they would.
15,727. They might not get them cheaper as matters stand at
present; but if they were, all willing to pay in cash, would it not be
possible for you to give them their goods cheaper than you supply
them upon credit?-I would not sell cheaper for cash. The goods
are all marked in figures, and when they are paid for in cash they
are charged at the same prices as when put down to the account.
We have not two prices for our goods.
15,728. What proportion does your cash trade bear to your credit
trade?-I should say that it is more than one third, but not one
half.
15,729. In the answers you have given, are you speaking of the
Faroe fishermen in your employment, or are you also referring
to the home fishermen?-I have been speaking of the Faroe
fishermen principally.
15,730. Where are the men employed by you in the ling fishing?-
Most of them are situated in Sandwick parish.
15,731. Have they also accounts in your shop here?-Most of
them have.
15,732. But not to the same extent per man as the Faroe men?-
No; but we know exactly how much they are likely to gain, and
therefore they are not allowed to exceed a certain sum.
15,733. Do you limit the credits of the men employed in the home
fishing?-They limit their credits themselves, because they are
grown-up men with families, and they know how far they should
run their accounts. Of course, if they were running them further,
we would limit them; but we rarely have to do that, because we
know they must have the little which they do get.
15,734. Is not that the case with the Faroe fishermen also?-Yes;
we limit them too.
15,735. But I understand you to say that the necessity for limiting
the home fishermen is greater than in the case of the Faroe
fishermen?-Yes.
15,736. Why is that?-Because I consider the home fishing is not
so good a fishing: the earnings from it are not so great.
15,737. You said you knew quite well what the men are likely to
earn in the ling fishing?-Yes. I can tell from my experience the
outside which any ling fisherman can earn.
15,738. Do you know that before the season begins?-Yes. By
taking five or six years together, I can see what a man has done in
time past, and I don't expect that he will exceed it.
15,739. Do you think that any five years of a fisherman's life will
give an average from which you can calculate his probable take for
next year?-Yes; I think five years is quite sufficient.
15,740. The variation, I suppose, arises from the nature of the
season?-Yes; in stormy weather they cannot go to sea so often
as in good seasons, and in other times the fish do not come over
the ground so well as they did before. Another thing is the herring
fishing, which is connected with the ling fishing, the same boats
being used for both purposes.
15,741. Are you engaged in it extensively?-No, not very
extensively. I think we have about 10 or 11 boats altogether
which fish in the herring fishery.
15,742. Is the engagement of the fishermen in the herring fishing
similar to that which exists in the ling fishing?-It is exactly the
same.
15,743. They are paid according to the current price at the end of
the season, and that price is settled for at the same time as the
price for the ling fishing?-Yes; they are both settled for together.
15,744. Do the returns which you have furnished with regard to
the home fishing include in any of the answers the earnings from
the herring fishing?-Yes; they apply to both ling and herring put
together. In fact they apply to everything that the man has earned
in the years to which the questions relate.
15,745. Do you think it would be practicable to introduce a cash
system into Shetland in place of the annual settlements which now
exist?-It would be better for the curer. I don't know if it would
be better for the fishermen altogether. I think it would be better
for perhaps one half or two thirds of them; but the other third, I am
afraid, could not get on at all with the cash system.
15,746. Do you think they would have a difficulty in living over
the first half of the year?-Yes; over winter or spring, until the
fishing had commenced.
15,747. Do you think it would be impossible for them to get
advances during that time in order to keep them going?-If they
were to be paid in cash, the fish-curer of course would not give
them anything until they brought the fish to him, and other people
would be inclined to say the same thing. The man would merely
have to be trusted like any other man going into any shop and
purchasing goods on his own credit.
15,748. But, except for that difficulty, you would prefer a cash
system?-I would.
15,749. Do you think there would be any difficulty in carrying out
that system, supposing it were once begun, the men had tided over
that transition period?-I think there would be none whatever.
15,750. Would it be possible to pay the men fortnightly or
monthly, or at delivery?-I would pay them weekly.
15,751. Would you pay them the whole proceeds of the fish caught
during the week?-I would pay them exactly for every tail they
landed. I would fix a price with them at first, before they began to
the fishing at all; but that price might be altered weekly, according
the markets went up or down, the same as in any other trade.
15,752. Do you think the fishermen would agree to that?-We
have asked them to agree to it, but they have not done so.
15,753. Was that because they did not like to have the price fixed
and thus lose the chance of a rising market?-It was not so much
the fixing of the price that they objected to. They would have
agreed to that, but some of them who did not know where to find
means said, 'What are we to do if we get no cash for a week or
two in stormy weather, and we cannot go off; the merchant cannot
supply us then.' Of course they could not expect us to supply them
with anything after we had commenced with that system.
15,754. If the man was bound to fish for you, would you not be
willing to give him supplies?-But they would not be bound to
fish at all in that case.
15,755. But the men might be bound to fish for you all the season,
although they were paid weekly?-I would not care to engage
anybody then for the season. I would have a station at a certain
place, [Page 397] with weights there, and I would pay for the fish
as I got them.
15,756. Was that the nature of the offer which you made to the
fishermen, and which they would not accept?-Yes. We would
have no hold over the fishermen in that case at all.
15,757. Would it not be quite practicable to engage the men for
the whole season and to pay them weekly?-It would be quite
practicable.
15,758. Have you made an offer to them of that description?-
Yes; we have made an offer to some fishermen who fish for us
now.
15,759. Did you offer to engage them to fish for you for the whole
season?-Yes. If they commenced, they would never think of
changing.
15,760. In that case would there be any reluctance on the part of
the fish-curer to make an advance to the men in a bad week if they
were bound to fish for him over the whole season?-I should not
care to do it because they might get no more fish after a certain
date. At the end of the year the weather is very often such that the
men cannot go off for weeks, and we might be advancing on the
prospect of what never came, and then the men would be in debt.
15,761. In the case you refer to, were the fishermen not willing to
accept your offer?-They were not willing.
15,762. Do you think it would have made any difference in that
respect if the offer had been to pay a proportion of the price-say
a minimum price of 5s. 6d. or so for ling-and that the balance
should be paid according to the current price at the end of the
season?-I don't know how that would do. I never spoke about
that with the men. I think that would be giving them two chances.
It would be giving them the cash, and then giving them the full
value of the market after I had paid out my cash so much sooner
than I would otherwise have done. When a thing is sold, it is sold,
and you take your chance either to lose or to gain, but in that case
the fishermen would have the cash in their hands, and they would
also have the chance of benefiting by a rise in the price.
15,763. But in other trades, merchants have to lay out their cash in
wages and take their chance of a return?-Yes; and I would do the
same.
15,764. You would do the same if the men were paid wages, but
would you not be prepared to make part of the wages dependent
upon the market price of the fish?-No. I hold that in a business
transaction, if a party agrees to sell, and you agree to purchase, the
one takes his chance, and you take your chance too. That would
bring each party to an understanding of how matters stood between
them. If it was the practice altogether to purchase the fish green,
and to pay for them in money, there would be so many people in
competition for them that the men would be sure to get the full
value, because, if I gave 6d. more, another man would be sure to
give 6d. more if he could afford it, and the men would not lose
by that. The fish would go up to the very top price, and the men
would reap the advantage.
15,765. Do you think there would be always two or three
competing merchants at each station?-Certainly there would.
The stations are only half a mile apart; and if one man would
not offer the price, another would do so.
15,766. Are your curers paid by weekly wages?-We have one
curer paid by weekly wages.
15,767. Do you cure by contract?-Yes, as well as by wage.
15,768. How many people are employed in your curing
establishment during the season?-I cannot say, because some
go on for a week or two, and others go on at the end of that
time; but we will have as high as forty and as low as twenty
people who are not off work.
15,769. How are these people paid?-They are paid weekly by a
daily wage on Saturday night.
15,770. Do they receive payment of their whole wages in cash?-
Every penny.
15,771. Are they paid in cash even if they have had out-takes
during the week?-They have no out-takes; we don't give them.
15,772. Is yours the only establishment in Shetland, so far as you
know, where that is the practice?-So far as I know, I believe it is;
but I am not certain. The only other one where I thought it was
done was Leask's; but I happened to be present last day when Mr.
Robertson was examined, and I heard him say that they did give
credit, which I did not know before.
15,773. Has it been long the practice in your establishment not to
give credit to your weekly workers?-It has been the practice for
about five years.
15,774. Have you found it to facilitate your transactions very
much?-Yes; and it was for that reason we gave up the practice
of giving credit. When we first commenced to cure at Bressay,
we paid by weekly wages; but the people usually wanted some
advances before the Saturday night, and we found in a short time
that we were losing money by bad debts while a great deal of time
was involved in settling with them on the Saturdays. In fact it took
up so much time, and caused so much trouble, that we stopped it
altogether.
15,775. How did the bad debts occur?-The girls wanted to take
up clothing, and on Saturday night they required food for another
week, and we found they took up too much.
15,776. Have you found that the people are now contented
with the system which you have introduced?-They are quite
contented.
15,777. They don't come to you wanting out-takes?-Never.
15,778. Do you find they get on quite comfortably under the
present system?-Yes. What took us hours before to settle,
we can settle now in the course of half an hour.
15,779. Don't you think the fishermen might manage to get on
under the cash system if it were introduced in the same way that
you have done with your workers in the curing establishment?-
The fishermen are different thing. The fish have first to be caught
before they are paid for; whereas, in the other case, the people are
engaged for a weekly wage, which they are certain to get.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLOTTE JOHNSTON, examined.
15,780. You live at Colafirth, near Ollaberry?-Yes.
15,781. How long have you lived there?-I was born at Colafirth,
but I came to Lerwick when I was 25 years of age, and I was here
for 17 years.
15,782. What did you do in Lerwick?-We kept a few boarders
and lodgers.
15,783. What do you do now in Colafirth?-I have been employed
scouring or dressing hosiery for the most part, and I generally
had to go to one man with it for 10 years, except two months. I
commenced on 1st. June 1861, and stopped on 8th April 1871.
15,784. Who did you dress hosiery for?-Chiefly for Mr. Morgan
Laurenson, Lochend.
15,785. Do you also knit?-Yes.
15,786. Were you always paid for that in goods?-Yes.
15,787. Did you get them at Mr. Laurenson's shop at Lochend?-
Yes.
15,788. Do you also deal sometimes at the shop at Ollaberry?-
Yes.
15,789. Have you an account there?-Yes. I have had a good
many accounts. I think the first account I had with Mr. Laurenson
was in 1863.
15,790. Were these accounts settled regularly?-No; that was the
mistake. I wanted to settle regularly after a few months, when I
got home perhaps from 10 to 20 dozen, but he ran on the accounts
for perhaps 14 or 15 months, so that I did not know whether I was
going ahead or going back.
15,791. This account [showing] was settled on [Page 398]
December 31, 1864: 'By contra., £7, 10s. 9d.' What was that
due you for?-I had scouring, and I had two tatted rugs, and I
knitted cloth.
15,792. I see the account is settled again on March 31, 1866: were
you still working at the same things?-Yes.
15,793. The work you did was put at the end of the book?-Yes.
15,794. The book you have shown me is a very carefully kept
pass-book, is it not? Is there anything wrong in it?-I was not
satisfied, and therefore I kept it.
15,795. Why were you not satisfied with it?-I thought he charged
me too much for my groceries, and gave too little for my dozens of
scouring.
15,796. Could you not have fixed your price for your scouring
yourself?-No, I did not get the chance. He did it all himself,
because he had both sides of the question.
15,797. But you had no need to work for a less wage than you
thought was fair. Could you not have gone somewhere else with
your work?-He always thought I should work to him. I could
have gone to many a place else, and got work and been paid for it
what I thought was a fair price, but he thought I should still have to
stay and work for him.
15,798. Why did he think so?-I suppose he thought he got as well
done to by me as he could have got done to him by another.
15,799. But he could not oblige you to do anything you did not
choose to do?-When I would refuse to do what he wanted me to
do at a time when I was up myself, he would send the things to me
in a box to be done.
15,800. But you did not need to dress the goods unless you got
what you thought was a fair price for them?-I had to do it,
because I had to work for my own maintenance.
15,801. Are the pass-books you have produced the only pass books
you have?-Yes.
15,802. The next one is for 1868 and 1869. Is with Mr. Laurenson
too?-Yes.
15,803. It is only brought down to October 1869. Have you had no
pass-book since then?-No; I wanted to stop work then because I
was not well.
15,804. Have you got no supplies from Mr. Laurenson since
1869?-Yes; I have got an account of them. [Produces account.]
15,805. When was the account settled last?-I think it was in April
or May 1871; perhaps it may have been in June.
15,806. On May 16, 1870, I see you are charged 8d. for oatmeal:
how much was that for?-4 lbs.
15,807. Were you told at the time you got it what the price of it
was to be?-No; I did not know at the time how much it was to be.
15,808. On June 27 you are charged 2s. for tea: how much was
that?-Half a pound.
15,809. Do you buy 4s. tea at Lochend?-We have bought 5s. tea
at Lochend, but that was in 1863.
15,810. Is it very fine tea that you get at 2s. per 1/2 lb.?-We ask
for
the best that is in the shop.
15,811. Are you quite content with the quality of it?-We must
just take it as it is, because we have no means of going anywhere
else. I have a sample of it here. [Produces sample of tea.]
15,812. Is that 4s. tea?-No, it is 4s. 4d. tea. That [producing line]
is the line they gave us for the goods we got on the 22d of this
month. [Witness produces line in the following form
s d
By hosiery 2 0
Tea 1 1
0 11
Rice 0 31/2
0 71/2
Sugar 0 21/2
0 5
s d
0 5
Soda 0 1
0 4
Soap 0 11/2
0 21/2
Cloves 0 1
0 11/2
Sugar and tobacco 0 11/2
15,813. Where do you say you got these goods?-At Lochend,
from Mr. Laurenson.
15,814. You took him 2s. worth of hosiery?-Yes.
15,815. How much tea did you get for 1s. 1d?-A 1/4 lb.
15,816. How much rice did you get for 31/2 d?-1 lb.
15,817. How much sugar did you get for 21/2 d?-1/4 lb.
15,818. Did you pay him 21/2d. for it?-Yes
15,819. Was that loaf sugar?-Yes; I have a sample of it.
15,820. How much soap did you get?-The soap was 6d. per lb.
[The witness here produced a sample of the tea for which she had
paid 1s. 1d. per 1/4 lb.; a sample of the loaf sugar for which she had
paid 21/2d. per 1/4 lb.; a sample of the rice for which she had paid
31/2d. per lb.; a sample of the soap for which she had paid 6d. per
lb.; and a sample of flour for which she paid 2d. per lb. These
were all docketed by the clerk as having been produced by
witness, and purchased from Mr. Laurenson's shop at Lochend.]
15,821. Did Mr. Laurenson know that you were to bring these
goods here?-No.
15,822. Did you get them for your own use?-Yes.
15,823. Were you asked by your summons to bring them here?-
Yes.
15,824. Are the articles which you get at the shop at Ollaberry of
the same quality as you get at Lochend?-Mr. Irvine, who keeps
the shop there, is very kind to me. If I want all cash at any time,
he gives it; and Mr. George Henry and Mr. William Smith have
also been very kind to me. They would give me cash at any time
on my hosiery if I asked for it.
15,825. Are you quite sure that the samples you have produced
were got at the same price that is charged for similar goods in your
account by Mr. Laurenson?-The prices in the account are those
which are charged when the goods are given for work, but the
samples I have produced were given in exchange for hosiery.
15,826. Are there two prices for goods at that shop?-Yes, they
always charged two prices. When we pay for goods in hosiery,
they are always above the price which is charged when cash is
paid for them.
15,827. Do you get the goods cheaper when you pay for them by
your work, such as you are dressing, than when you are selling
hosiery?-Yes. The price is then perhaps 1d. less for the 1/4 lb. of
tea.
15,828. How do you know that?-Because I see it marked.
15,829. Was the tea for which you were charged 4s. 4d., when
you paid for it by hosiery, the same tea that is charged 4s. in the
account?-I think so.
15,830. Are you not sure of it?-I did not see them take it out of
the chest. I asked them for the same tea, but I don't know if they
gave the same kind.
15,831. But did you ask for the best tea in the shop in both
cases?-Yes, I always do.
15,832. Then all you know is that you asked for the best tea in the
shop, and it was charged 4s. 4d. when you gave hosiery for it,
and it was charged 4s. when it was put into your account for
dressing?-That is all I know; but it is a very short time since it
was 4s. 4d. It was always 4s. 8d. before.
15,833. I see that on September 29, 1870, you are charged 1s. 6d.
for oatmeal: was that a peck?-Yes.
15,834. Were you paying 1s. 6d. for the peck of oatmeal at that
time?-Yes; and I suppose there were others paying it as well as
me.
15,835. Would you have paid the same for it in any other shop in
the neighbourhood?-No. It was dearer [Page 399] than if I had
had the cash and gone into another shop to get it.
15,836. What did you say when you went to Mr. Laurenson with
the hosiery which you sold to him on the 22d?-It was my sister
who went, not me.
15,837. Did she tell you what she said?-I don't think it.
15,838. Are you quite sure your sister did not say what the goods
were wanted for?-I told her what goods to ask for, and she got
what I told her to get.
15,839. Did you tell her what you were to do with them?-No; I
had not got the summons then.
15,840. Would you have got these goods from Mr. Laurenson even
although you had not got the summons?-Yes.
15,841. Did you want them for your own use?-Yes. I got them
on the Monday, and I did not get the summons until the Tuesday
night.
15,842. You have not brought the whole of the goods which you
bought then. You have merely brought samples from what you
bought?-Yes. I was only told in the summons to bring samples.
15,843. Was the note which you have produced, given in the shop
at the time when the goods were bought?-Yes. The shop lad
marked down the things on that slip of paper and gave it to my
sister, so that she might show me what she had got, and what the
prices were.
15,844. You have handed me a letter from one Laurence Clark,
dated 25th January 1872, in which he says, 'I have to inform you
that I built Miss Charlotte Johnston a house in 1863, and I could
not get 1s. from her, because she wrought all her work to Mr.
Laurenson, at dressing hosiery, and could not get so much cash as
1s. Therefore I had to take anything that she had to give me, that
could do me any good. That kind of payment is not so good as
cash.'-For what purpose was this letter written?-It is merely a
line from the man who built my house, to show that I could not get
cash with which to pay him.
15,845. What did you pay Clark with for building your house?-I
got meal, tea, tobacco, sugar, and anything that was in the shop at
the times which he required; but I had to reduce the goods to him
to cash price, because he would have required his money of me,
and I did not have it to give him.
15,846. What was the price charged for building your house
altogether?-He charged 15d. a day and his food; I think it
came to about £2.
15,847. Did you give him a great deal more in goods, according to
the price which was charged to you for them?-Yes. I gave him
six yards of cloth for jacket, and other things.
15,848. I see there is a lot of tobacco entered in your book about
1863?-Yes; that was for the men who were working at the house.
15,849. When was the house finished?-It is about eight years in
October since it was done.
15,850. I see there is some tobacco in December 1864. Was your
house finished before then?-No. It was finished outside, but not
inside. We went into it in October, but the windows were not in,
and it was two years before I was able to get the flooring put in
one of the ends of it.
15,851. Did you give him a little tobacco every now and then until
it was finished?-Yes; but he got other things besides tobacco.
15,852. Does that account for the entries of tobacco in August and
September 1865 in your book?-Clark was paid by that time, but I
had to get my house thatched.
15,853. Was it not to pay him that you got that tobacco?-It was
either to pay him or some one else who was working for me. I did
not have any money; and when any one did any job for me, I had
to pay them in some way or other.
15,854. What did you give them besides tobacco?-I sometimes
had a few dishes that they required, and they took them or tea.
15,855. Does that account for there being so many entries of tea in
your book?-Yes. I got wool and potatoes for tea.
15,856. At the settlement in July last there was a balance due by
you to Mr. Laurenson?-Yes.
15,857. Have you not been working to him since?-I was not able
to work.
15,858. About a month ago you got a notice from him that you
would be summoned to court unless you paid the balance of your
debt, 14s. 31/2d?-Yes; but I did not expect that I should have had
anything to pay.
15,859. Did you think the balance was in your favour?-Yes, I
expected that.
15,860. But you were running up an account, and you did not
know?-Yes, but that was not my blame. I always wanted a
settlement; and if he had paid me for my work and my goods, I
would not have been due him anything.
15,861. When did you leave home?-I left home on Thursday, and
came by the steamboat. I did not go on board of her at Ollaberry
until Saturday night, but I had left home two days before, and had
to wait for her.
15,862. How old are you?-I was fifty-two in July.
15,863. You are not in good health, and you are not able to walk
a long distance?-No. I cannot walk far on account of the
rheumatics.
15,864. Have you any idea when you will get home?-No.
15,865. Do you intend to go back by the steamboat if you can?-If
the steamboat goes I will go with her but if not, I will have to stay
until the packet comes back from Northmaven.
<Mr Guthrie>.-I have to give notice that I do not think at present
that I shall summon any more witnesses to appear in Shetland; but
there will be a meeting at half-past nine o'clock, and if any one
wishes to make any statement, or to bring forward any additional
evidence, he will then have an opportunity of doing so.
<Adjourned>.
LERWICK: WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 31, 1872.
JOHN GATHERER, examined,
15,866. You have been for a long time Collector of Customs at
Lerwick?-I have. Before questioning me, I would like if you
would allow me to make a brief preliminary remark or two which
may render clear any after-evidence which you may call upon me
to give. At the time when certain gentlemen tendered their
evidence on Shetland truck before the Commission at Edinburgh, I
read the brief, necessarily imperfect, and probably inaccurate
reports of the same which appeared in the Edinburgh weekly
papers. I also read some articles and letters which appeared in the
newspapers at the time. About seven months ago I read, as printed
I think in a Parliamentary blue book, the report of Mr Hamilton to
the Board of Trade about the discharge of the Shetland whaling
seamen at this port. I have never read the report since. On my
return from the, mainland last summer, I found a gentleman had
left in my house a copy of the evidence, as [Page 400] printed <in
extenso> in a pamphlet form. I think the pamphlet contained a
report of Mr. Arthur Hay's adverse evidence; but I had not time to
read it before I posted the pamphlet to a friend in the south. I
therefore never read his evidence. Beyond a brief newspaper
paragraph, which I read recently, I literally know nothing as to
the evidence which has been given under the present inquiry. I
purposely kept aloof from the same, and from inquiring about
the same. I appear here very reluctantly on the present occasion,
and, as you are aware, I would not have appeared at all had I not
been cited. I have several reasons for this reluctance to appear: I
will mention two of them. I entertain very strong opinions
condemnatory of the truck system, which I believe prevails all
over Shetland; but I do not wish personally to have anything to do
with the matter, directly or indirectly. I think it is to be regretted
that the question as to the mode of paying the whaling seamen
should have been introduced at in the Edinburgh evidence, and
complicated by being mixed up with the general question of truck.
Both questions, I think, should have been treated separately, as
they are the subject of distinct laws and regulations, these laws
at the same time being administered by distinct departments.
From what I have already stated, you will see that I have a very
imperfect recollection of the statements in Mr. Hamilton's report,
but I recollect my impression of it at the time when I read it. It
was, that the statements in the report were essentially correct
representations of what had taken place at one time or other at
Lerwick. I have heard that some one has questioned the accuracy
of some portions of his report. It might be liable to misconception
in this respect. When he inspected my office, we talked generally
over the objectionable system that had so long prevailed here in
the mode of discharging and paying off the men. A great deal of
this must have been patent and notorious to Mr. Hamilton, as a
former resident in Shetland, and having subsequent intercourse
with the same; and he may not possibly, in his narrative of this to
the Board of Trade, have clearly separated some of the past and
the suppressed practices of the agents, and those of more recent
date. This would the more readily occur, as I have reason to
believe that at the time he prepared his report he was not aware
that I had over a number of years repeatedly and fully reported the
whole matter to the Board of Trade. I have here with me a report
relative to the discharge of whaling crews during the last year, and
some returns relative to the same, and for previous years, which I
hurriedly prepared with the view of sending to the Board of Trade
by the mail, which I expected would have sailed yesterday. When
preparing the same, I was not expecting I would have to give
evidence on the subject. I do not wish to hand in the documents,
but I may have occasion to refer to them.
15,867. You showed me these returns last night, and allowed me
to see the report which you were sending to the Board of Trade?-
I did.
15,868. You are satisfied, I presume, as to the substantial
correctness of these returns?-Yes, of my own report and the
returns. There is a difficulty in preparing them, from the time
that has elapsed; but, as you are aware, I have asked them to
verify the accuracy of them at the proper quarter.
15,869. Subject to that verification, you believe these returns to be
correct?-Yes. They were prepared by myself and those in any
office from the records.
15,870. Therefore, if any application should be made to the Board
of Trade afterwards for production of these returns under this
Commission, you have no objection to their being regarded as part
of your evidence given upon oath?-None; and in continuation of
the report, I will refer to the fact that I have been examined before
you.
15,871. You are aware that before 1867 the wages of seamen
returning from Greenland voyages and landed in Shetland were
never paid at the Custom House?-In some cases they were, but
very seldom.
15,872. Do you also know from your own observation, and from
what you heard at the time, that those seamen were generally
running large accounts with the agents, by whom they were
secured for these sealing and whaling voyages?-I was aware of
that from the statements of the seamen, themselves.
15,873. In numerous cases?-Yes, in numerous cases.
15,874. In almost every case?-I believe so.
15,875. In what way did these statements come to be made to
you?-The seamen often came and complained to me that they
were not paid off. It may perhaps be proper to explain that at that
time, before the special Board of Trade regulations were issued,
the masters should have come and paid off the seamen. I may add
further, that I am aware that every means was taken by the agents
to keep the masters of the Peterhead and Dundee vessels from
coming and discharging their men in cases where it would have
been attended with no inconvenience.
15,876. In what way did you become aware of that?-I got
numbers of letters from the masters stating that they were unable
to attend themselves with the men. These letters, so sent to me,
were often written by the agents, but signed by the masters.
15,877. Did you know them to be in the handwriting of the
agents?-Yes, or of their clerks; and on inquiring at the captains
when they came back to engage men again, some of them told me
that the agents desired them to do so.
15,878. Not to pay the men?-Yes, not to pay the men. In these
letters they stated that they often wished the men to appear, but
that they (the men) ran away home; which statement the men
subsequently told was incorrect.
15,879. At that time, was the payment of these Greenland seamen
at Lerwick subject to the same general regulations which were in
force in other parts of the empire?-Yes. There were instructions
to shipping masters at that time.
15,880. Were these the same regulations that are still in force in
other parts of the kingdom?-Yes.
15,881. They are still in force everywhere, except in Lerwick?-
Yes. They are still in force, except in the case of Shetland,
Orkney, and the port of Stornoway. I may mention that the
procuring of seamen, by agents was at that time, and is still in
other places, illegal and punishable by fine-that is, according to
the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854. I believe the mode in which
they then acted would in the south be treated as crimping; and
allow me to say also, that the offence was rendered greater by the
fact of the agents being merchants and supplying the men with
goods.
15,882. I believe there is a prohibition of that?-Yes; and even
licensed agents-that is, individuals licensed by the Board of
Trade-are not allowed to be so if they have dealings with the
men. That also is under the Act of 1854.
15,883. The regulation at the time you speak of, although it
was not observed, was, that the men should be paid before the
superintendent?-Yes, then called the shipping master.
15,884. That officer in this case was yourself, as there is no local
marine board here?-Yes.
15,885. Why was the regulation not observed?-I am satisfied it
was from the agents desiring to secure the profits on the supplies
of the men.
15,886. Had you made frequent endeavours to enforce compliance
with the Act?-Yes.
15,887. You reported repeatedly to the Board of Trade on the
subject?-Yes. I may mention that, when I came here first, there
was an attempt on the part of some of the agents to introduce their
accounts into the men's accounts of wages, which I checked, and
which I believe then led to the shipmasters not appearing.
15,888. That was many years ago?-It is a good many years ago.
In some cases these accounts were introduced under the name of
ship's accounts.
15,889. Was not that done as late as 1867, after the regulations had
been modified? At least I was told that in some cases the agents
had introduced their own accounts among the captain's stores in
the ship's store-[Page 401]book?-I suspect that was done to a
trifling extent, although I should not like to say decidedly that it
was done.
15,890. Was there not a clause introduced in 1868 by which
that was distinctly prohibited?-There were some defects in the
regulations, and they were altered in order to meet the attempts
made to evade them.
15,891. Since 1867 has the system been materially changed by
the regulations then introduced by the Board of Trade?-Yes,
materially.
15,892. The seamen now receive their full payment in cash in your
presence?-They do.
15,893. Although not at the time required by the Act?-There is
great delay in many cases.
15,894. That is said by several witnesses who have appeared here,
to be due to the reluctance of the men to come forward, and their
desire to go home and see their friends as soon as they are landed:
is that so?-To a great extent, I do not believe that.
15,895. Have you any reasonable doubt that if the men were
instructed by the master of the ship and the agents to go at once
to the Custom House for payment of their wages, they would obey
that direction?-I believe from my knowledge of the men, that if
the master and the agent decidedly told them to go to the Custom
House after being landed, they would go. There is no doubt that
men after a long voyage are naturally anxious to get home; but if
they knew they had to be paid then, they would readily accede to
the request of the master and the agent.
15,896. Is there any reason you can assign, from your acquaintance
with the practice in paying seamen's wages, why the accounts
should not be all ready within the time allowed by the law?-My
whole experience in the matter points to the fact that the agents are
unwilling to have a speedy settlement, and that unless compelled
they would never appear at the Custom House at all, or rather I
should say at the Mercantile Marine Office.
15,897. Have you had occasion since 1868 to know that the
seamen are still incurring large accounts, or considerable accounts,
to the agents by whom they are secured?-I have endeavoured not
to be cognisant of any of their dealings; but I may add further, that
I believe, although the special regulations are outwardly and
nominally complied with the agents still secure their accounts
from the men for their supplies.
15,898. You think there is still a security-a sort of virtual
impledgment of the men's wages although they are nominally
paid over in cash?-Yes. It may not be by agreement, but the
thing practically exists; and I never heard the agents conceal the
fact that the profit on the seamen's wages is the main inducement
to them in accepting the agency. That very fact, in my opinion,
renders the whole transaction irregular and illegal. Of course, that
is a matter of opinion.
15,899. Have you had occasion to interfere while seamen were
settling wages with the clerk of the agent, in order to prevent
part of the money being retained for the payment of the agent's
account?-I may mention that the men, after being settled with at
the Custom House generally run down to the agent's office. I
know that, because I hear the men speaking about it, and the
agents, or rather the agents' clerks, telling them to go down to
the place.
15,900. Have you frequently heard the men told to go down?-
Yes. The men sometimes blurt it out, and the agents' clerks are
not very much satisfied at their doing so; but the whole thing is so
well understood, that there is little concealment about it.
15,901. You have frequently heard conversations on the subject,
showing that the men were expected to go down at once?-Yes;
and some of the clerks had the audacity to attempt to deduct the
amount at the office not later than last year.
15,902. Who were these? Are they mentioned in your report?-
They are mentioned in my report to the Board of Trade.
15,903. Do you know whether one consequence of the new
regulations has been, that the green hands engaged for the settling
and whaling voyages are much fewer now than they were before
1867?-I am not aware of the fact. My attention has never been
called to it.
15,904. Are you prepared to say that there are not fewer green
hands engaged now than there were before 1867?-I cannot say
as to that.
15,905. Your observation has not led you to think so?-No. The
idea never occurred to me.
15,906. Have you had occasion to know whether the seamen have
been told by the masters or the agents since 1868 to attend at the
Shipping Office within the time required by law?-The special
regulations, unfortunately, do not define any time within which
they are to attend, and I have no doubt the agents know that fact.
15,907. The three days do not apply under these regulations?-
That is a question that I should not like to give an opinion upon.
15,908. The clause about the three days is quoted in the last head
of the regulations?-It is quoted there to show what the general
law is.
15,909. But you have a doubt in your own mind as to whether it
applies here?-I may at once say that these special regulations
were a sort of compromise, and I am so far answerable for their
being framed, thinking that they would secure the men their
wages. My opinion now is, that it would have been better if the
Act had been enforced as it originally stood; and I believe the
thing will never be on a satisfactory footing as long as agents
who are merchants continue to act as agents.
15,910. Is it not a benefit for the young men who are engaged
for the Greenland fishery, to be able to get their outfit from the
merchants on credit, as they do?-I think the same thing could be
secured by other and legitimate means.
15,911. You know that the men get an advance note for the
amount of the first month's wages?-Yes; and after these
special regulations came into force, Laurenson & Co. were the
first who paid the men over the counter in cash.
15,912. You are speaking now of the advances?-Yes, of the
advance note. Messrs. Hay latterly did the same; and Mr. Tait, I
think, did so this year for the first time. I recollect asking Mr.
Laurenson if he sustained any loss by treating the men with
confidence and giving them the money, and to the best of my
recollection he said he did not.
15,913. But the outfit requires a larger sum than the advance
amounts to in any case?-Yes; but allotment notes would meet
that. That would give the relatives of the seamen an opportunity
of drawing the money in their absence.
15,914. Are these the only means by which you think a young man
without an outfit could provide himself with one?-I think any
merchant would give the seamen credit, if they were certain that
the present agents did not enjoy the monopoly of giving them their
supplies. I may further state, that I believe a gentleman intends to
a certain extent to act its agent for some of the vessels this year, to
pay the men's advances in cash, and to allow their allotment notes
to be paid by a banker or some disinterested party. If that system
were introduced, it would knock the whole irregularity on the
head. Such is my individual opinion.
15,915. Do you think the gentlemen who now act as agents would
have any hesitation, or that any danger would arise to them, in
supplying goods to the men, if they were not acting as agents, but
merely as merchants?-I think they are not entitled to enjoy a
monopoly of the trade.
15,916. But supposing they were not acting its agents at all, but
merely as merchants, do you think they would hesitate, or that they
would incur any risk by advancing outfits to the men its they now
do, but without the security or the quasi security which they now
possess?-In that case the men's custom would be distributed over
all the town. They would give their custom to the merchants they
were partial to, instead of being confined to the shop of the agent
who engages them, as at present.
[Page 402]
15,917. But would those who got their custom incur any serious
risk in giving them their supplies and outfits on credit?-They
would be liable to the same risk that every merchant who embarks
in trade is subject to. No man can deal with another on credit
without being liable to a risk; but at present the merchants
practically enjoy a monopoly of the seamen's supplies.
15,918. The seamen, however, could go to any other shop in town
for their supplies if they chose?-At present they could, but I
have no doubt they would offend the agent by doing so. If they
repudiated his right to secure his own account, that would put an
end to the thing, because the main inducement for the agents to act
as they do is that they have the supplying of the men with goods.
15,919. Have you anything else to say?-Nothing.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled.
15,920. You formerly gave evidence before the Commissioners
under the Act of 1870, in Edinburgh?-I did.
15,921. Are there any points on which you wish to give further
information?-I merely wish to reaffirm all that I previously
stated. From what the people say, the only thing that seems to
require explanation, is with regard to the value of the worsted or
wool for the making of a shawl.
15,922. You refer to question 44,290: 'I know for a fact that the
worsted of a shawl which sells at about 30s. is worth from 2s. to
3s. They nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they
get it in goods that will be about 4s.; and they get from 25s. to 30s.
for it?'-Yes. The question was intended to apply to half square
shawls and haps selling at from £1 to 30s., according to the
verdancy of the animal that was buying it. It takes about sixteen
hundreds to make a hap, and the worsted will be worth. from 2d.
to 21/2d. It will take from sixteen to seventeen hundreds to make a
half square fine shawl, and the worsted of it will be worth about
4d.; and these shawls are sold at from 18s. to 30s., according as
customers can be got for them.
15,923. Are haps often sold at so high a price as 30s?-No, not
haps; they are sold up to about £1. That has been my experience.
I may say that I have been in shops, when the first question asked
before a price was stated was, whether the article was for the
person's self or for a stranger; that is to say, was it to be sold to a
person in the country, or was it to go away outside, because in
these cases they have two different prices. I have likewise been in
shops when, if there were any of the knitting girls there selling
shawls or other articles, the merchant would take very good care to
state the price to his other customers in the lowest possible voice,
and at the farthest possible distance from these girls; and I have
been repeatedly told that they will occasionally put the price upon
a piece of paper, so as not to let the knitters hear it. That I say in
contradiction to the assertion which is made, that the merchants
sell the hosiery articles at the same price as that at which they
nominally buy them. Again, I want to point out that in most cases
all the worsted that the hosiery merchants in Lerwick dealt in up to
the last year was bought from the country merchants for goods,
and therefore that even that nominal value did not represent the
true value of the articles. I produce an account containing
transactions amounting to £146; it is all balanced by goods, which
were entirely worsted, up to £1, 3s. 10d. The only item of cash I
find in the account is 15s. Lately, however, they have been
obliged and are ready to buy the worsted for cash, because they
cannot do without it, and the supply of worsted is decreasing.
15,924. You are speaking of Shetland worsted?-Yes. I may
mention also that that estimate of the value of the worsted for a
shawl was intended by me to embrace the Yorkshire worsted,
or what they call the Pyrenees, although I don't suppose either
the worsted or the wool ever saw the Pyrenees: it is made in
Yorkshire.
15,925. Are you speaking, in both these cases of haps and of
shawls, of articles made of Shetland worsted?-All the haps
are made from Shetland worsted, the coarser worsted.
15,926. You said in that answer to which you have referred, 'They
nominally give the worker 9s. for working it, but if they get it in
goods that will be about 4s.:' is not that a little too strong?-I
don't think it.
15,927. That assumes that the charge for the goods is about 100
per cent. above the cost price, or rather it assumes that it is 100
per cent. above the price at which the worker of the shawl ought
to get these goods, which would not be the cost price, but the
retail price?-No, I don't mean that. I mean to say that if these
merchants were to go to the proper market, they could buy their
goods at such a rate that they would be able to sell them at 100 per
cent. profit; but I know that a great many of these merchants go to
second-hand houses to buy. Whether it is for the object of getting
long credits, or what it is, I don't know; but I know from the
parties who come here that a great many of them are not first-class
houses.
15,928. Have you any personal knowledge as to the wholesale
houses with which these merchants deal for their goods?-Do
you mean, do I know who comes down here?
15,929. Yes?-Yes, I do.
15,930. From what source is your knowledge derived?-From
their travellers, and from seeing their goods coming down.
15,931. You are acquainted with the travellers of those houses?-
Most assuredly.
15,932. And you know that they are not wholesale houses in the
strict sense of the term, but middle-men?-Exactly. I say that the
merchants here could go to much better quarters for their goods if
they were to put their business on a proper footing. Wholesale
houses in Aberdeen are not in the same position as wholesale
houses in London.
15,933. Do London houses send travellers here?-No; but if the
merchants' business was on a proper foundation they could get
introductions to these houses, and do their business at a better rate.
15,934. Is there any other point on which you wish to make an
addition or explanation upon your former evidence?-It has
been generally remarked by fishcurers, that one reason why they
could not give up the present system of dealing with their men
was because the men would not have the means of getting boats
and fittings for the fishing, whilst at the same time the principal
fish-curers assert that they do pay enormous sums of money to the
men. For instance, I have seen from the papers that it has been
stated by Messrs. Hay & Co. that in the island of Whalsay alone
they paid £1300 last year, whilst the total value of the boats and
fishing gear there cannot be over £400. Therefore it is absurd to
say that the men would not be able to supply themselves with
boats. Again, it has been stated and maintained that the Shetland
men as a race are intelligent, and in one sense they are. Indeed
their intelligence is so acute that the employers are ashamed, as
I have no doubt you have found in the evidence, to give them
accounts. They are rather afraid that their acuteness would
discover too much in them, but in addition to that they tell you it
would be impossible for the men to divide the produce of the
fishing among themselves if it was paid in cash at the station,
because it would require a man conversant with accounts; so that
it is an absurdity to say that they are an intelligent race, and yet
cannot adjust the proportions which would go to the different men
in a boat's crew if they were paid in cash.
15,935. Probably they would be sufficiently acute to adjust their
accounts if they were accustomed to do so like other people in
other parts of the world?-I say they are quite capable of doing
that. They are quite capable of looking after their own accounts if
these were [Page 403] produced to them. There is another thing I
should like to point out with regard to the agriculture of Shetland
as compared with that of other places. I am sorry I have come
away without the statistics, but if you look into them you will find
that we have a much larger number of stock in Shetland with a
rental of only £30,000, than Orkney with a rental of £60,000, from
which I deduce that it is a far greater object to the merchants and
proprietors here to continue the people as fishers upon the present
system, than to put the land upon a legitimate and proper footing.
15,936. In what way do you arrive at that inference?-The land
is under-rented for the purpose of binding the men to continue
as fishermen for their employers. A great deal of the land is in
outsets, and these outsets were originally set at the mere interest
upon the house that was built, or upon any enclosures that
were made. That was done for the purpose of procuring extra
fishermen, and the system has been continued to this day. By
looking at the valuation roll, you would find an immense
difference between the rents of merks land and the rents of outsets.
15,937. I don't suppose that any proprietor who employs his men
in fishing would deny that if he ceased to do so the rents of his
tenants must be raised?-I rather think they do deny that.
15,938. I have had admissions made to that effect in the evidence
which has been given before me?-I have heard none of the
evidence that has been taken; but I am glad to hear that they are
thinking of turning over a new leaf, and admitting even that they
are wrong.
15,939. I don't say it has been a general admission, but that
admission has been made by one proprietor at least?-I say that
it ought to be a general admission. Another thing I would mention
is, that the people with their present beliefs are unfortunately too
subservient to come forward and frankly give full evidence upon
the matter, and I would give an instance of the sub-serviency and
illiterateness that prevails among them. I received the other day
a report from two men, in which they use such language as
'resources of science and art,' and one of them was styled the
superintendent, and the other the manager, of the working
department of the largest establishment in this place for the
manufacture of blubber. One of these men could hardly sign
his own name, while the other had to sign with cross. That fact I
mention in order to show that these men are under the belief that
they are bound to do in most cases as their superiors may dictate
to them.
15,940. Has it come within your knowledge that many people
have been afraid to come forward and give evidence before this
Commission?-Yes; a great many people have told me they would
not do it.
15,941. Do you refer to fishermen?-To fishermen and to females
too. I may mention also that I have been instrumental in starting a
large company here upon the limited liability principle, the first
object of which is stated to be to afford to the people of Shetland
an opportunity of prosecuting their fishings free from the truck
system.
15,942. Is that a company for prosecuting the Faroe fishing or the
ling fishing?-It is to be for all. It is to commence this year with
the Faroe fishing.
15,943. Did you send out any vessels in 1871?-No, we did
not begin in 1871, except with a single vessel in which I was
interested, and which we sent out to see what we could do with it.
15,944. Did that vessel belong to the company?-No, not to this
company. The company has been formed in Glasgow, of
gentlemen who are desirous of putting down this iniquitous
system.
15,945. Do you propose to carry on the fishing with out any
shop?-Yes.
15,946. And to pay all in cash?-Yes.
15,947. Do you propose to pay by annual settlements?-The men
still prefer going upon the old system of payments; but in order to
provide for their outfit, as they call it, we propose to pay it in cash
the moment the vessel leaves the harbour with them on board, and
we intend to afford to their families an advance of what is fair and
reasonable to keep them while the men are away. We are quite
prepared to run all that risk against a bad fishing, and we will pay
them the balance in cash at any moment they choose after they
come home.
15,948. Are the advances you are to make to be in cash also?-
Yes; they are to be in cash, not in goods.
15,949. Do you think it will be possible for the fishing business
to be conducted, perhaps not immediately, but shortly after this,
without the fishermen requiring advances either in cash or
goods?-Certainly; and I say that if that system could be adopted
now it could be carried on, looking to the amount of money that
has been accumulated on deposit by the people in the country
generally.
15,950. Then why do you propose in your enterprise to make
advances in cash?-Just to suit the humour of the people, until
they come to see for themselves that such advances are not
necessary.
15,951. I suppose you want to begin cautiously?-We do, and
to work them into the system gradually. In fact we wish them
eventually to take shares in these vessels, and to get vessels and
boats for themselves.
15,952. But in the arrangement you propose, so far as the Faroe
fishing is concerned, the men will be sharesmen?-They are
sharesmen in the produce, but they have no shares in the vessel;
but I propose that they should eventually have an interest in the
vessel, and we are quite willing to give them an interest in any
vessel they choose. We are also desirous to get better boats for
them in the ling fishing. It has been stated likewise that the people
could not get their supplies at the stations if there was a cash
system, as there would not be shops there, because the whole
amount that is sold at the stations in the course of a year is merely
nominal; and to show that, it is mentioned that it is usually an
ordinary splitter who attends to the shop, or the fish factor. That
man is not in the shop any time during the rest of the year, and it is
said that there is only a very limited amount of goods sent there,
being intended only for the supply of the men when they go out to
sea. If that is the case, it would be no great hardship if these goods
were not there, but I say that they would be there.
15,953. Do you think the men could easily take their own supplies
with them?-Quite easily; and wherever the carcase is, there will
the eagles be gathered. If there is money to be got there, you will
be sure to find shops there too.
15,954. In what way were the men paid who went to the Faroe
fishing in your vessel last year?-They were paid by shares the
same as they had hitherto been, and this [producing it] is a copy of
their settlement. The name of the vessel is the 'Lily of the Valley.'
15,955. I see that this account of the settlement is drawn up in the
form which is ordinarily used in Shetland?-I don't know, but I
suppose it is.
15,956. It shows the amount of fish caught, and then the
deductions, and finally the division?-Yes.
15,957. I see no deduction for commission?-There is no
commision.
15,958. That is usually, but not universally, taken by the owner?-
I don't know why it should be. I think it is hardly fair if the men
are doing their duty that the owner should not do his also, and take
the fish to the best market.
15,959. You think the owner should be considered to be paid for
that by his share of the produce?-I think so. I also produce a
copy of our account for the expense of salt and curing.
15,960. Does this show the actual expenditure incurred by you in
curing the fish brought in by the vessel?-Yes.
15,961. Was it arranged with the men that they should be charged
only the actual expense incurred for salt and curing, and not an
estimate according to the usual system?-Yes.
15,962. Is it not usual in Shetland that the expense of curing is
deducted according to an estimate of 47s. 6d. and 50s., or 52s. 6d.,
as the case may be?-No; I understand it is the cost that is
charged. The agreement [Page 404] with our men was that they
were to receive one half of the proceeds of the fish caught, after
deducting the expenses of curing, salt, etc., and master's premium
10s. per ton, and mate's premium 2s. 6d. per ton, and that they
should receive 8 lbs. weight of bread per man per week, and also
9d. per score to each man for all the fish caught by him, one half to
be paid by the owners, and the other half by the crew.
15,963. What was the return to the owners upon their share of that
vessel last year?-22 per cent.
15,964. The total share payable to each man is shown in the
account you have produced?-Yes. Their half share amounted to
£188, 9s. 6d., but then they had wages in the succeeding voyage as
specified in the agreement.
15,965. Is there any other point on which you wish to make any
additional remark?-I may say that when I was south lately, I saw
letters from some of the whaling agents here, which plainly
indicated that the commission of 21/2 per cent. paid to them for the
engagement of seamen for the seal and whale fishing, would not,
in their opinion, afford sufficient remuneration to them.
15,966. Have you got these letters?-No; but I saw them, and I
was asked by the owners in the south if I could put them in the
way of getting an agent who would consider himself sufficiently
remunerated by that commission. I was first asked if I considered
21/2 per cent. paid them for their trouble. I said certainly; and I
then engaged with Mr. Scott in Lerwick to act as agent for these
vessels. Their previous agents did not consider that they would be
remunerated sufficiently unless they got a full opportunity of
trading with the men.
15,967. Is Mr. Scott to act as agent without having any opportunity
of trading with the men?-Yes. The advance will be paid in cash
at the time of the engagement, and the allotment notes will be paid
at the bank.
15,968. Did you make that arrangement in consequence of what
the shipowners in the south said to you?-Yes. That is an
experiment which Mr. Scott is about to make; but there is no
doubt about the result of it, because 21/2 per cent. is a very liberal
commission for doing little or nothing.
15,969. Are you now in the management of the chromate of iron
quarries in Unst?-Yes.
15,970. I understand the wages there are not paid in truck?-No;
they have not been since I had anything to do with the quarries.
15,971. Are you aware that that was the case formerly-Yes; it
was truck from beginning to end.
15,972. Did you find that to be the case when you undertook the
management of the quarries?-Yes; after I had commenced the
thing I was asked by the man who had previously trucked them if I
would allow the workmen to be settled with in the office, so that
they could get them into the shop immediately afterwards.
15,973. In what capacity had that person trucked them? Was
he secretary or manager for the company?-They had a sort of
anomalies there for managing the company. This one was
supposed to be paymaster, and then they had a manager. The
paymaster was a director, and he had a shop too.
15,974. Did you ascertain that the men had been paid at that shop
by lines or tickets?-There was no payment at all. Their accounts
were adjusted from time to time, the amount of goods which they
had got was taken off, and the balance was handed to them. It was
done openly and above-board; the man himself told me about it.
15,975. But accounts are always kept and settled in Shetland
without any attempt of concealment?-I think so. I never had any
difficulty in discovering it. I may add further, from my experience
as chairman of three parochial boards, that since the system of
truck and paying with lines was done away with in the parishes I
am connected with, the rates have been reduced considerably.
15,976. How do you account for that?-Because the people have
got money. It used to be considered an acknowledged fact, that for
a pauper's shilling, if they brought a shilling to the shop, they
would get 14d. worth of goods. The money was able to go much
further, because there was wholesome competition between the
different merchants to get a share of the money.
15,977. I understand Major Cameron's tenants throughout
Shetland are at liberty to fish for any fish-curer they please?-
Yes, for any one they please.
15,978. I think in your previous evidence you referred to the lease
to Spence & Co. in Unst, and expressed a sort of regret that it had
ended in a monopoly?-Yes.
15,979. There has been a good deal of evidence given before me to
the effect that a monopoly of that kind is beneficial, and that it is
wholesome, mainly in preventing small shops from springing up in
large numbers, and that it requires a large capitalist to develop the
resources of the country properly: is that so?-That is perfectly
true: but a merchant or any one who says that should recollect that
except for the capital of the poor fishermen they could not carry on
the business themselves.
15,980. Are you aware whether the fish-merchants generally are
men of large capital?-I should say that they cannot be, from this
fact, that they would readily pay the men in cash which they get,
and which in the month of August must amount to about £40,000
due to the men, if they had it.
15,981. Is that merely an inference which you draw from the
practice which prevails?-Yes.
15,982. But have you any personal knowledge on the subject?-
Yes. Perhaps it would not be fair to mention the names of the
firms, but I know several firms who have commenced within the
last few years with no capital, and who are carrying on a business
which in the south would require an enormous capital. I know it is
alleged by merchants generally that they do not consider they are
trading upon the poor man's capital.
15,983. I suppose you speak of the merchants trading upon the
poor man's capital, in this sense, that they do not pay for the fish
which is in their hands until about the time when they get their
returns?-Exactly; that they neither are merchants nor agents.
They are not merchants, because they do not pay the men for the
raw material, and they are not agents, because they do not give
them honestly their account sales.
15,984. Are you aware of the practice existing in Shetland,
that the proprietors in many cases receive their rents from the
fish-curers?-Yes. During the first year or two that I settled for
Major Cameron, I got many cheques from the fish-curers.
15,985. Was that for the whole amount of rent due by a number
of fishermen?-Yes, either that, or each man would bring his
separate cheque; but in a great many cases in Shetland the
fish-curer just pays it slump, or what is called guarantees it.
15,986. That is not an actual guarantee; it is merely an
arrangement by which the fisherman, for the convenience
of all parties, is debited in the fish-curer's book with the
amount of rent which the fish-curer pays to the landlord?-
True; but in it great many cases, as I have previously stated, I
think there is a chronic balance against the men, which balance,
I think, if looked into, would generally be found to be composed
to a great extent of advances of rent for the next year, which
practically thirls the men on to them, but which has no right to
go through their books at all.
15,987. Are you aware whether the fish-curer is induced to make
that advance of rent by the consideration that he holds his own
premises from the landlord, and might be charged a higher rent, or
lose some other advantage, if he did not do so?-Most assuredly.
There is no doubt that, if they were thrown open, the rents of the
business premises would double themselves throughout the
country.
15,988. Have you known any instance in which the landlord
favoured the merchant so far as to refuse to allow other businesses
to be begun upon his estates?-Yes.
15,989. Had that happened in the case of Major Cameron's
estates?-Not so far as I know, and no one [Page 405] has ever
asked it. In fact we have business premises lying unlet just now.
15,990. Do you know that that has happened elsewhere?-I do; in
more cases than one.
15,991. Is it not virtually the case in Unst, that no premises are
allowed there except those of Spence Co.?-I don't know about
that, because Spence & Co.'s principal premises are upon
Henderson's property.
15,992. Were you not aware of Spence & Co. removing a
merchant who had premises on the property of Major Cameron,
which was under tack to them?-No; I think that was on a
neighbouring property.
15,993. Was that the case of a house that was shifted bodily across
the road?-It was not shifted bodily. The man put up a new place
altogether.
15,994. Was that on Major Cameron's property?-No; neither in
the one case nor in the other. I think he came off the Greenfield
property, and he built a place upon the Earl of Zetland's lands.
15,995. Was there no one removed from Major Cameron's
property in the neighbourhood of Uyea Sound, by Spence &
Co.?-I don't think there was. There was a man there with a
lease of land who kicked up a row with us about a pier and other
things of kind, whose nephew, under his name was keeping a
shop, and we distinctly told him that he must turn his attention to
something else; that if he would use the house for a lodging-house
or something of that kind he could stay, but that we would not
allow him to do it under these circumstances.
15,996. Did he put up a shop elsewhere?-Yes. They built a new
place to the west of Baltasound.
15,997. What were their names?-Isbister. If I am not
misinformed, I think these parties are still carrying on the shop
at Uyea Sound, conducted by a man Donald Johnston; at least I
saw a boatload of goods coming ashore there, and on inquiry I
was told they were for Isbister's shop.
15,998. Do you think such an arrangement as you have made with
Spence & Co. is in any sense different as respects the interest of
the men from that by which a proprietor cures himself, and
employs his own tenants in the fishing?-In the way it is carried
out, I don't think there is very much difference; but had it been
carried out in the way that was intended and promised, it would
have been very different. You must bear in mind that I don't think
it is for the interests of the working people in Shetland to have
scattald, and therefore it was intended that each man should have a
farm for himself, and a lease of it, and they have a right to that
under the lease to Spence & Co. Had they stuck to that, or were
they to stick to that, they would be quite independent; but as they
persist in believing that the scattalds are for their benefit, and as
Spence & Co. have a right to these scattalds, it practically binds
them to the merchants.
15,999. I understand that Spence & Co, from their lease, have
absolute power to remove tenants if they don't comply with the
rules and regulations which, are appended to the lease?-I don't
think so, not without our sanction. I know that we don't think so.
16,000. That, if it is so, would give them an absolute power to
compel the men to fish for them, just as much as when a landlord
intimates to his tenants that they must fish for his tacksman on
pain of removal. Assuming that they have that power, is not that
the effect of it?-Assuming that they have that power, that would
be the effect of it, but I don't think they have that power. It was
never intended that they should have it, and I don't think they have
it. I hold that we alone have power to turn off the tenants, and
under the lease we only have power to bring in tenants.
16,001. The effect of the lease and the regulations appended to it,
so far as I have been able to examine it, appears to be, that if a
sub-tenant fails to comply with the rules and regulations appended
to the lease, he may be removed by the lessee?-No, we quite
deny that.
16,002. How do you reserve power under the lease to deal with
the sub-tenant who does not comply with the rules?-We exclude
assignees and sub-tenants, except as after-mentioned.
16,003. Perhaps the shortest way of dealing with that matter will
be, that I should have an opportunity of reading the lease or it copy
of it at leisure?-Certainly, but I may say decidedly that it was not
intended that Spence & Co. should have such a power, and it is not
being acted on, because we are now in process of warning four or
five tenants who will not come under the rules. It was intended
distinctly that we reserved all our present tenants, irrespective of
Spence & Co. altogether.
16,004. But are not the powers with which Spence & Co. are
invested with regard to peats and other matters, really such as
to compel the tenants to remove if they do not comply with the
rules?-No. The peats are reserved in our hands, for the purpose
of compelling them to take care of the peat-banks.
16,005. That is not Mr. Sandison's reading of the lease?-I cannot
help Mr. Sandison's reading of it but I am certain that it is the
correct reading, from the fact that there was a very considerable
correspondence carried on about Spence & Co. being allowed to
put in certain tenants during the first two or three years of their
lease. They have only right to put in new tenants within a certain
time and after that they have no right to put anybody into a vacant
farm.
16,006. You were speaking of poor-rates: do you think there has
been no reduction of poor-rates in Shetland from any other cause
than the reduction of truck?-Not in my opinion.
16,007. Have there not been better crops and better seasons
lately?-Yes, but that does not reduce the number of paupers.
The number of paupers has been increased rather than reduced.
16,008. But if there are good seasons with regard to crops and
fishings, may not a greater number of paupers be maintained by
their own friends, and fewer people fall upon the rates?-That
might be so; but if the same number of paupers are on the roll, and
if the allowances are practically the same, it must follow that the
rates should be stationary.
16,009. Your statement is that the number of paupers has not been
reduced?-It has not been reduced. It has been rather increased. I
may mention that in Unst there has been a decrease from deaths,
but not anything to account for a reduction of the rates from 8s. to
2s. 6d.
16,010. With regard to the price of shawls, when you spoke of a
shawl being worth 25s. or 30s., did that apply to the merchants
who purchase shawls for goods, or to private dealers?-I referred
to what the shawls would be sold for to private individuals in the
town.
16,011. The prices which you name for shawls are not the prices
that were paid by merchants?-No; but with regard to that I may
mention that I have heard merchants from the south say that when
they sold goods to merchants here, in a great many cases they got
goods back. There is a man named Saint in Aberdeen who deals
considerably with the merchants here, and perhaps he would be
able to give evidence as to whether he does not prefer to pay in
cash, but that to give goods is insisted upon by the merchants here.
16,012. Did you mean to say in an earlier part of your evidence
that the merchants here get supplies of goods mostly from
second-hand houses?-I mean to say that they could get them
from better houses if they chose.
16,013. Would you say that J. & R. Morley & Co.; Copestake,
Moore, & Co.; Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Fletcher & Sons,
Manchester; J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow;
Mann, Byars, & Co. Glasgow; George Peek, Manchester, Vesey
& Sons, London; Allan & French, London, were second-class
houses?-No; but I should like to know the extent of business
which the merchants here do with them, and whether they deal
wholesale with them or not.
16,014. Would you be surprised to hear that Shetland merchants
engaged in the hosiery trade obtain the bulk of their goods from
such houses as these?-I should say that perhaps that was the
truth, but I should like to know the whole truth about the matter,
because [Page 406] these houses, large as they may be, have
certain clearances occasionally, which it may suit a people such as
those of Shetland to take. I know at least one instance of a large
quantity of that class of goods coming down in the steamer, and
being damaged by a cask of porter being burst upon them, and
a claim was made upon the Leith and Clyde Shipping Co. for
something like 50 per cent. of profit, because it was a job lot
which had been bought from big houses of that kind.
16,015. But I suppose there are job lots bought by almost every
house at times?-Yes, but that has been the system here; in fact it
has been stated by people in these big businesses, that they did get
rid of their over-season's goods in that way.
16,016. I suppose over-season's goods come to all parts of the
rural districts of Scotland?-I am not aware of that, but they may
do so.
16,017. Is there anything else you wish to say?-Nothing that I am
aware of.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, CHARLES OLLASON, examined.
16,018. You are a member of the firm of Charles Ollason & Son,
bootmakers, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,019. Did you receive that letter [showing] from Mr.
Williamson?-Yes. [The following letter was put in:-]
'Haggersta, Jan. 20th 71.'
'Messrs. Charles Ollason & Son.
'Dear Sirs,-I am sorry to say that by some misunderstanding I
did not get the wages that I expected to get; for instead of a 3/4th I
only got a 1/2 share, and therefore instead of £18 I only got £12. I
was due Mr. Stove £4 from the year that I was at the fishing from
him, and he handed in that bill against me to Mr. Irvine, who
retained that for him, so in that way I had nothing to get at all.
Therefore I am sorry to say that I cannot pay the 15s. that I am due
you for the boots that I got in August, and I beg that you will wait
till the turn of the season, and then I hope that I will be able to pay
you, for I am signed to go in the 'Olive' as a sharesman. If you
cannot wait till then, you will be so good as to let me know. You
will make out a bill, and I will sign it and hand it in to Mr. Irvine,
and let it be marked against me, and then you will be sure of your
money then-for it is entirely out of my power to pay you any
other way just now. I beg that you will comply with my request, as
I can't do better.-Your humble Debtor,
'M. Williamson,
'Haggersta,
'Whiteness.'
16,020. Was that letter written to you by him in answer to a
demand for payment of your account?-Yes.
16,021. Were you surprised to get a letter of that kind explaining
the reasons why your account was not paid?-We were not very
much surprised, for we believed the facts to be just as he stated
them.
16,022. Did you think it a reasonable enough explanation he was
not able to pay you?-Yes; it was reasonable enough for him.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, JOHN WALKER, recalled.
16,023. I now show you Messrs. Hay & Co.'s store ledger, kept by
William Halcrow, their storekeeper here: was Halcrow the party
referred to in the report which you mentioned in your evidence?-
If Messrs. Hay & Co. say he is their superintendent, he is the same
individual.
16,024. Is Messrs. Hay & Co.'s the largest establishment of that
kind in Lerwick?-I understand so.
16,025. And the party mentioned in the report describes himself as
superintendent of the largest establishment in this place?-Yes,
general superintendent, and the other is described as the manager
of the working department. The general superintendent is the one
who signs his name, and the other is the one who signs with a
cross, and they are the parties who speak about the resources of
science and art.
16,026. Is the book I now show you kept in a fair enough
mercantile hand?-Fair enough.
16,027. Would, you be surprised to hear that it was kept by
William Halcrow?-I would not. The reason why I mentioned
this matter at all was to show the subserviency of the people in
Shetland,-that they are accustomed to do what they are bidden,-
that they are ready to sign their names to what they really cannot
understand, if they think it is doing a favour to any one above
them.
16,028. Do you think Halcrow was incapable of understanding
such a phrase as the resources of science and art?-I think so, as it
is applied here; because I may mention that in the correspondence
which passed before, and which refers to the same parties, they
said they did not know that whales had skins.
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ARTHUR LAURENSON, recalled.
16,029. I understand you have heard the evidence which has been
given by Mr. Walker with regard to the merchants in Lerwick, and
that you wish to make some explanation in regard to it?-I have
not heard it, but the substance of it has been reported to me since I
entered the room. I have been told that he said that the merchants
in Lerwick buy from second-class houses, and pay for their goods
by consignments of hosiery. I wish to refute that, so far as I am
concerned; and I refer to Messrs. J. & W. Campbell, Glasgow;
Stewart & M'Donald, Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; John
Clapperton & Co., Glasgow, and Geo. Peek & Co., Manchester,
as a proof that I deal with first-class houses.
16,030. Are these the only houses with which you deal?-No; I
deal with a good many more.
16,031. Are there any houses from which you get portions of your
goods which might be characterized as second-class houses?-No.
16,032. Is it the case that you ever get job lots or over-seasons
goods?-Never, unless in the ordinary way of trade. Perhaps an
article may be shown to me by a traveller occasionally, but only
one pattern out of fifty which may be described as a job lot.
16,033. You do not get in a larger proportion of these goods than
other dealers in other country towns?-No; I never bought a job
lot altogether in my life. We never pay by consignments of
hosiery.
16,034. Is there anything further you wish to state?-At the
close of my last examination I wished to make objection to the
credibility of a witness. I was asked to state it privately, and I now
hand in paper with regard to it. [Produces paper.]
Lerwick, January 30, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
16,035. Do you wish to concur with Mr. Laurenson in the
statement which he has now made?-Yes. The only difference
is that I deal with more houses in London.
16,036. The list of houses which I read from in putting a question
to Mr. Walker was furnished by you?-Yes; but it does not include
one half of the houses that I deal with. I wish also to say that I
have now been 25 years in business, and I never to this day
exchanged 2d. worth of hosiery goods for goods in the [Page 407]
south. I do not mean to say that I have not bought hosiery goods
for goods here, but I have never exchanged them in the south for
other goods.*
16,037. Does any one present wish to give any further evidence?-
[No answer.] Then I adjourn this inquiry. I have to think the
Commissioners of Supply for the use of this room, which they
have kindly furnished to me; and I have also to return my thanks
to all parties in Shetland with whom I have met, for the courtesy
which I have received from them, and for the readiness which
they have shown in furnishing me with all information which I
required.
*Mr. Linklater also, on the same day, sent the following
letter to the Commissioner, referring to the same subject:-
LERWICK, 31st January 1872.
W. GUTHRIE, Esq.
Sir,-I am sorry that I was absent when Mr. Walker in his
evidence before you today stated, as I have been told, that the
merchants here bartered their goods in exchange for drapery
goods from second-class warehouses in the south. I beg to state
that I have been thirty-seven years in business here, and have paid
cash for all the goods ever I bought, and beg to refer you to the
following houses from whom I get my goods.-I am, sir, yours
very respectfully,
ROBERT LINKLATER.
J. & W. Campbell & Co., Glasgow; Stewart & M'Donald,
Glasgow; Arthur & Co., Glasgow; Anderson & Co., Glasgow; J.
Clapperton & Co., Glasgow; Chamberlain & Birrell, Glasgow;
John Howell & Co., St. Paul s, London; Fandel, Phillips, & Co.,
Newgate Street, London; Hutton & Co., Newgate Street, London;
D. Hyam, Houndsditch, London; Copestake, Moore, & Co.,
London; George Peek & Co, Manchester; Hall, Russell, & Co.,
Bradford.
LERWICK: MONDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 1872
<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.
<Mr. Guthrie>.-As I have been detained here longer than I
expected, owing to the state of the weather, I have held this
sitting to-day in order to examine some witnesses who were
formerly suggested to me by gentlemen in Lerwick, and whom
I was not able to call before closing the previous sittings, and
also some others who I think may be useful in supplementing the
evidence already taken.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. JOAN WINWICK or FORDYCE,
examined.
16,038. Do you live in Chromate Lane, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,039. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is a pensioner. He was a
carpenter to trade, but he does nothing now.
16,040. Do you knit worsted work?-Yes, I knit, but for myself
only. I knit with my own wool, and sell the goods.
16,041. Have you never knitted with merchants' wool?-No.
16,042. To whom do you generally sell your hosiery?-I always
sold it to Mr. Robert Sinclair since he became a merchant. I
always knit haps or coarse shawls.
16,043. What do you pay for the worsted which you use in
knitting?-When I buy the worsted it is 2d. per hundred; but
when I buy the wool and spin it myself, it comes to be a great
deal dearer. We cannot get proper worsted to buy, and we have to
manufacture it with our own hands.
16,044. Is the worsted which you buy at 2d. per hundred the kind
which you use for a hap of ordinary quality?-Yes.
16,045. At what price do you sell a hap two yards in size made of
that worsted?-Perhaps about 10s.
16,046. Have you any of these haps in hand just now?-No.
16,047. Have you sold any lately?-No; I have not sold any this
winter. I have not been knitting this winter to sell. I have just
been doing things for my own family.
16,048. What else have you knitted besides haps?-I have knitted
nothing but haps for a good while. Since I could not see to do
finer work I have been spinning worsted and making frocks for
my husband, and stockings and things of that sort.
16,049. Where do you buy your worsted?-I have not bought
any worsted for a long time. I always bought the wool and spun
it myself, because I could not get the worsted to buy.
16,050. Where did you buy your wool?-I buy skins from the
women who sell the sheep, and get the wool ru'ed off the sheep
when they are killed.
16,051. Are there women who go about and sell wool in that
way?-They sell mutton, but they will sell wool to us when we
go to their houses and ask them for it.
16,052. Do these women buy the whole sheep?-Yes, they buy
them alive; and when they have killed them, they sell the mutton
to any person in the town who will buy it.
16,053. Are there many such women?-I suppose there are a few,
but I cannot say how many.
16,054. Is that the way in which many people get their supply of
wool for spinning?-I think it is, because we cannot get wool in
any other way.
16,055. How much wool do you buy at a time?-I have bought
10s. or 12s. worth at a time,-just the skin as I could get it.
16,056. How much do you think you pay for the wool per lb. in
that way?-I have seen it cost me 2s. and 16d. and 18d.; but it has
been higher of late since the wool became so dear.
16,057. Is not that a very high price for it?-Yes.
16,058. Is it not more commonly about 1s. per lb.?-Yes. When I
came to Lerwick it was 1s., 8d., and 6d.
16,059. Is it not still to be got at 1s. per lb.?-Perhaps it may be in
country places, where they have plenty of it; but I cannot get it for
1s. unless it is very coarse, and a great deal of refuse in it.
16,060. How much wool does it take to make a hap two yards
square?-About 2 lbs. That would be 16 hundreds or cuts.
16,061. Are you speaking all this time of a hap of the ordinary
quality?-Yes, the ordinary quality.
16,062. Do you know what a woman gets for knitting a hap of that
kind when it is given out?-I cannot say exactly; but I think they
give some knitters for plain work only 2d. per hundred, or perhaps
a little more. That is what they say they get for knitting plain
work.
16,063. Do they count the payment of the knitting by hundreds?-I
suppose some of them do, but I have never put out any to knit
myself, or taken any in to knit.
16,064. Then for a hap like that, if there were 16 hundreds in it,
the knitter would get only 2s. 8d. for the knitting?-Yes; but I
think that for knitting borders they get a little more. It is for plain
frocks that they say they get 2d. per hundred.
16,065. Are you always paid in goods for your work?-Mr.
Sinclair always gave me what I asked. When I asked a little
money I got it, and when I required goods for my family, such
as soap, soda, or tea, I got them too.
16,066. But I suppose it was understood that you were to be paid
in goods?-Yes, that was the custom of the place; but he always
trusted me with anything I wanted, if I happened to be due him
something at times.
[Page 408]
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. ROSINA DUNCAN or SMITH,
examined.
16,067. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,068. Is your husband alive?-Yes. He is turning an old man
now, but he was at the sea at one time.
16,069. Has he got a pension?-No.
16,070. Do you employ yourself in knitting?-I knit a little for my
own family.
16,071. Have you given up knitting for other people-Yes.
16,072. Did you knit for Mr. Sinclair at one time?-I sold him a
few haps last year.
16,073. Did you sell him a great number before that-I did not;
but when I had any little things I sold them to Mr. Joseph Leask,
and got money articles for them.
16,074. Did you ever sell so many as half a dozen to Sinclair?-I
cannot say, for I did not count them. The last one I sold was to
him.
16,075. What did you get for it?-12s.
16,076. How much wool was in it?-I cannot say, for I spun it
myself, and wrought it until it was done.
16,077. Do you not know how many cuts of worsted were in it?-
No; I did not count them.
16,078. What was the size of it?-I suppose it would be about two
yards.
16,079. Was it made of fine wool or ordinary wool?-It was just
the ordinary wool that is used for haps.
16,080. Were you paid in money or in goods for it?-I was paid
mostly in goods, but he gave me money without my asking for it.
16,081. How much money did you get?-1s. or so. I could not
exactly say how much, but he gave me what I required. I got the
goods which I required, and he gave me that money, and he also
gave me tea, which was the same as money, because if I had had to
buy it I would have had to pay for it.
16,082. Could you get money for the tea?-I did not sell it; I kept
it for my own use.
16,083. Did you ever sell anything that you got for hosiery?-No.
I always required anything I got for my own family.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, examined.
16,084. Are you a knitter in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,085. Do you do anything else?-I keep lodgers. They are
generally workmen, such as masons.
16,086. Do you knit a good deal?-No; all that I do in that way is
very trifling. It is generally fine veils that I knit.
16,087. Who do you sell them to?-Mr. Sinclair; I work for him;
he gives me the worsted. It is Scotch worsted that I get, but I don't
know the quality of it, nor the price.
16,088. Have you got any of these veils in hand just now?-Yes, I
have a few that I am knitting.
16,089. Do you knit with your own wool at all?-No, I only work
for him.
16,090. How much do you get for knitting one of these veils?-
From 16d. to 1s., according to the quality as it is coarse or fine.
16,091. Do you get more for knitting one of fine worsted than one
of coarse?-Yes.
16,092. Will you bring one of the veils that you are knitting just
now and let me see it?-Yes,
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.
16,093. Do you live with your mother in Baker's Close,
Lerwick?-Yes.
16,094. What do you do?-I sometimes knit, and sometimes sew;
but I mostly knit. My mother knits sometimes, and does the
house-work.
16,095. Do you support yourself mostly by knitting?-Yes, almost
entirely.
16,096. What kind of knitting do you do?-Fine veils and shawls.
16,097. Are you paid for them in money or in goods?-Always in
goods.
16,098. Do you sometimes get a little money?-No, I never asked
for it.
16,099. Do you get money for your sewing?-Yes. I sew to
private people, and they always pay me in money.
16,100. Where do you buy your provisions?-From any shop I
like. I don't go to any one in particular.
16,101. Where do you get the money for that?-From my sewing.
16,102. Do you get all the money that you require for provisions
by your sewing?-No. We generally keep a lodger or two when
we can get them.
16,103. Would you not prefer to get some money for your
knitting?-Yes; but it never was the practice to ask for it,
and therefore I never thought of doing so.
16,104. Would you not be better off if you had money for your
knitting, which you could spend upon provisions?-I think I would
be; but I never thought of asking it, as it is not the usual thing.
16,105. What kind of goods do you get for your knitting?-Tea,
sugar, soft goods, groceries, or any kind of goods that are in the
shop.
16,106. Do you get most of the dress for yourself in that way?-
Yes.
16,107. Do you knit a greater number of articles than are sufficient
to supply yourself with dress?-Yes.
16,108. What do you do with them?-I buy anything that is
required for the house.
16,109. Do you sometimes get goods for your friends if they want
any?-No, I generally require all I get for myself.
16,110. You don't get provisions for your knitting?-No.
16,111. Do you get enough money for your sewing and from your
lodgers to supply you with provisions all the year round?-Yes; it
has always done so in time past.
16,112. Is there anybody living in family with you except your
mother?-No.
16,113. What is the usual price that you get for your fine
shawls?-We generally get 10s. or 12s., but that is not the
very finest worsted either.
16,114. Are these shawls knitted with the merchant's worsted?-
Yes.
16,115. It is always given out to you, and you keep an account?-
Yes.
16,116. Do you know what quality of worsted it is that you knit
one of these shawls with?-It is usually Shetland worsted. The
price of it is 31/2d., and some of it 4d. per cut; at least I would think
so, judging by the fineness of the worsted.
16,117. Have you sometimes bought worsted yourself?-Yes,
sometimes.
16,118. Have you bought it often enough to know the quality and
price?-Yes.
16,119. What size of shawl is it that you get 12s. for?-About 21/4
yards. That, is, 25 scores on each border, and there are four
borders in the square.
16,120. Then you could say quite positively that for a shawl of 25
scores, knitted with 31/2d. worsted, and measuring 21/4 yards, you
got 12s. in goods?-Yes.
16,121. Do you ever sell shawls to any persons except the
merchants?-No.
16,122. When did you last take any veils to the shop?-I think
it was the week before last. I got 9d. each for them; they were
knitted with Scotch wool. When they are coarse, there is less paid
for knitting than when they are fine.
16,123. Were these coarse veils?-No, they were ordinary quality.
The worsted was not the very coarsest.
16,124. Do you know what was the value of the worsted per
cut?-I cannot say.
16,125. Who did you sell them to?-To Mr. Robert Linklater.
16,126. Do you know what you would pay for them at the shop?-
I think it would be about 2s. or 2s. 6d.
16,127. Would you go and buy one of them and bring it to me
here?-Yes.
[Page 409]
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, GRACE SLATER, recalled.
16,128. [Produces veil.] Is that one of the veils you are knitting for
Mr. Sinclair just now?-Yes. It is his own worsted that I am
working it with. I think I will get 16d. for it. I have got that for
veils of the same quality.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROBERT SINCLAIR, recalled.
16,129. Do you wish to make any explanation with regard to what
the witness Grace Slater has now said?-The only explanation I
have to make is, that the veil she has now produced belongs to the
same class of goods as that with regard to which Mr. Linklater and
I were previously examined. The veil which she has produced is
quite a good thing, but in the same class of goods there are a great
number of job articles which tear in the dressing.
16,130. What is the selling price of such veils?-From 2s. 6d. to
2s. 9d. That is the highest price we get for them.
16,131. What quantity of worsted is in one of them?-About 6d.
worth of worsted.
16,132. Is that two cuts of 3d. worsted?-No, it is mohair. But
there will be other veils of the same kind which will be worth not
more than 18d. or 20d., and therefore the profit which we get upon
one veil is no proof as to the amount of profit, if any, which is got
upon the whole.
16,133. What quantity of worsted is there in a veil like that?-
About 1/4 oz. The price of that worsted is about 36s. now, but I
paid 32s. 6d. for it. Taking it at 32s., that would be 2s. per oz.,
and therefore 1/4 oz. would be 6d.
16,134. How many bad lots might you have in an ordinary time
in such veils?-The only way of getting at that would be by
examining our books. This very season I had a lot of about 30
dozen veils, which cost me altogether about £45, and I sold them
for about the lot.
16,135. How did that happen?-Just because I could get no more
for them. I would have been very glad to have got more if I could.
I may mention that there is not 20 per cent. of these veils which
realize the price I have mentioned of 33s. per dozen, although they
all cost that price. Most of them run about 2s. 2d. or 2s., or
something like that.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ELIZABETH MALCOMSON, recalled.
16,136. [Produces black veil.] Have you bought this veil from Mr.
Linklater?-Yes. He says these veils sell at 18s. a dozen, or 1s.
6d. apiece; but this one is undressed, and therefore I only paid 1s.
41/2d. for it.
16,137. Is this one of the veils which you knitted, and for which
you got 9d.?-Yes.
16,138. Do you not know the value of the worsted required for
it?-No.
16,139. You said you know the value of the worsted in the shawls
you knit?-Yes.
16,140. Then how do you not happen to know the value of the
worsted in the veil?-Because I knitted them for myself in the one
case, and in the other I always got the worsted to knit them with.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER MUNRO, examined.
16,141. What are you?-I am second officer of Customs at the
port of Lerwick.
16,142. How long have you been in that position?-Fully five
years.
16,143. Were you here before it was usual to pay the seamen
engaged in the Greenland voyages at the Custom House
regularly?-No; I came here in the first year that the special
regulations came into effect-1867.
16,144. Did it come under your notice after you came here, that
the men who received their wages at the Custom House were
frequently indebted to the agents by whom they were engaged?-I
am not cognisant of the fact whether they were indebted or not.
16,145. Were you not aware that settlements were sometimes
made with the clerk of the agents, or the agents themselves, for
accounts due to them at the time when the men were receiving
their wages before the superintendent?-Yes, I understood so.
16,146. Was that frequent during the first year that you were
here?-Yes.
16,147. Were these settlements actually made in 1867 in the
Custom House?-There were deductions taken from the balances
shown to be due to the seamen, in addition to the deductions
specified in the agreement.
16,148. Did the superintendent interfere to prevent these
deductions from being made in his office?-Yes; the parties
were interfered with by the superintendent, and the practice
was stopped.
16,149. Was that in 1867 or subsequently?-I think it must have
been in 1869 or 1870.
16,150. Did the practice go on without interruption or objection
until that time?-Not without interruption. We tried to stop it, but
we did not succeed altogether until 1869 or 1870.
16,151. Since that time has any attempt been made, within your
knowledge, to make a deduction of that kind in the Custom
House?-Not so far as I am aware.
16,152. Have you been aware whether seamen have received the
money payable to them under deduction of the agent's account in
any case?-I could not positively say, but I think I have seen it
done.
16,153. Have you suspected that the seamen were receiving only a
part of what was really payable to them?-Yes.
16,154. What reason had you to suspect that?-Because I could
see them keeping the deduction off.
16,155. Is the money usually counted in presence of the
superintendent or of yourself?-Yes.
16,156. Has that always been so?-No. It should always be done,
but it has not been done at all times.
16,157. Is there sometimes a press of business which prevents
it?-Yes, sometimes; and you cannot always keep your eye
watching everybody.
16,158. Do the cases to which you refer, occur when there is a
press of business?-Occasionally.
16,159. Are you aware that seamen coming to receive their wages
at the Custom House have usually had a settlement with the agent
beforehand at his office?-I am not aware of that.
16,160. Have you found, in the course of your experience, whether
the seamen, when paid at the Custom House, generally know the
amount of their account at the agent's shop?-I am not aware of
that either.
16,161. Have you at any time heard the agent, or his clerk, while
settling with the seamen, or after settling with them, in presence of
the superintendent, remind them that they had to go down to his
office and pay their account?-I cannot say positively that I have
heard the agents say that to the men, but I know that it was an
understood thing that they should do so.
16,162. Is it not so now?-I fancy it is.
16,163. How did you know that it was understood?-I have
overheard the agent and the men talking about it between
themselves in the office. I could not exactly bring the words to
my remembrance which I have heard used, but I have seen cases
where a small balance might be due, and when the agent did not
have change to settle with a man, he said he would settle when he
came to settle the other account at the shop.
16,164. The matter has come under your notice in that way, so that
you have come to be aware that it is a usual thing for the men to go
down and pay their accounts [Page 410] after having been settled
with at the Custom House?-I should fancy it has.
16,165. Have you had anything to do with the engagement of
seamen?-Occasionally.
16,166. Are they ever engaged in presence of the
superintendent?-For foreign-going vessels they are
always engaged there.
16,167. Are they so engaged for the Greenland and sealing
vessels?-Yes.
16,168. Is the agent present then and the captain of the vessel?-
Yes.
16,169. Is the selection of the men usually left to the agent, or does
the master of the vessel exercise a choice?-I fancy the agent
collects the men and the master selects them out of the crowd.
16,170. Does the agent interfere with the selection?-I am not
aware. They are all selected before they come before us.
16,171. Have you noticed whether in recent years the number of
young hands engaged in the sealing and whaling voyages has been
less than it was when you first came to the office?-I have not
observed that.
16,172. Have you heard any of the men complain that they could
not get their wages paid when they wanted them?-I have heard
complaints with regard to the second payment of oil-money. The
men said the agent had not got his return, or something to that
effect, that he was not aware of the quantity being ascertained.
16,173. Is that the only complaint you have heard on the
subject?-I think so.
16,174. Do you know whether there was any difficulty or objection
on the part of the agents to comply with the regulations when they
were issued?-There was little bit of difficulty, and I have no
doubt there was little objection at the time.
16,175. What was the ground of it?-I cannot say, except that it
was troublesome.
16,176. Was there no objection made to you or in your
presence?-No; I cannot bring a case of that kind to
recollection.
16,177. Then what was the difficulty or objection that you refer
to?-I suppose it was the compulsion of bringing the men forward
to be discharged, and producing store-books, and all that.
16,178. Do you mean that the agents do not like to have the
settlement made in presence of the superintendent at all?-I don't
mean to say that exactly; but I mean that it gave them a good deal
of extra trouble, and it was sometimes disagreeable.
16,179. You have said that there was a good deal of difficulty
in getting them complied with at first: do you remember any
explanation or reason that was given by the agents for that?-The
first year I came here the master of each vessel had to get a
store-book, in which were entered the goods or whatever extra
stores might be supplied to the men during the voyage, and I have
known these books coming ashore signed by the master and the
men when they came into the agents' hands, as it proof of their
correctness. Then the shop goods which had been supplied to the
families of the men during their absence were entered in, but we
had to compel them to deduct these and delete the entries.
16,180. Was that a difficulty which you had in 1867?-Yes, the
first year.
16,181. Did you find it to exist after 1867?-No; we stopped it at
once.
16,182. Then in 1868 there was still a difficulty, as you have
already said, in getting the regulations enforced: what was the
difficulty then?-The only difficulty then was the agent deducting
his own account from the balance shown in the men's account, and
handing over the net balance only.
16,183. That did not appear in any written accounting that took
place before you?-No.
16,184. Have you seen that attempted so lately as 1870 or 1871?-
Not in 1871, I think. I rather think the last time was in 1870, but I
could not be positive.
16,185. Are the rules strictly observed now?-So far as we can
attend to them, they are.
16,186. Are you not able to attend to them?-Yes.
16,187. Then they are attended to?-Yes.
16,188. What did you mean by qualifying your answer, and saying,
so far as you could attend to them?-I meant by taking steps to
stop all these informalities.
16,189. But there are no informalities now?-No.
16,190. Is there no delay now in settling?-There is delay in
settling, most undoubtedly.
16,191. Is that not strictly prohibited by the regulations?-I don't
think it is. There are five days allowed for settling, according to
the Act; but here it takes five or six or seven or eight months.
16,192. What is the cause for that in your opinion?-I cannot say.
16,193. Have you any doubt that the men would come forward to
be settled with if they were instructed to do so by the agent and the
master of the ship?-I should think they would, and be paid within
a day or so after the ship's arrival. I think that would be far better
for all parties.
16,194. Are you aware whether there is any difficulty in making up
the statutory accounts of wages which justifies a delay of five or
six months in settling?-No. I think they can be made up in the
course of ten hours for any whaling crew.
16,195. But there may be a difficulty in making up the account at
the agent's shop, may there not?-I don't know. They might have
that prepared beforehand, if it was necessary.
16,196. Do you know whether the effect of the delay which so
occurs is to make the men incur larger accounts at the agent's
shop?-I am not aware of that.
16,197. Have you ever heard any statement from the men to the
effect that they had to go to the shop during that period of
delay?-I never did.
16,198. Do you think it is the fault of the men that the settlements
are so long delayed?-There is no doubt a fault on the part of the
men, because, if they go away to their homes in the distant islands,
there must necessarily be a difficulty in collecting them again.
16,199. But is it not the custom to let them away in the first
instance without directing them to come and receive their
wages?-I think so.
16,200. Do you know whether they have ever been strictly ordered
to attend for that purpose by the master of the ship?-Not to my
knowledge.
16,201. Where are the men usually landed from these whaling
vessels?-They are sometimes landed at the lighthouse, sometimes
at Scalloway, sometimes at Sumburgh Head, but most commonly
at Lerwick harbour.
16,202. Are nine out of every ten landed there?-No, but more the
one half of them are landed in Lerwick harbour.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, Mrs. MARGARET SMITH or GIFFORD,
examined.
16,203. Do you live in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,204. Do you knit haps?-Yes; but only a few, because I am
getting old and weak, and I am not so able to work as I used to be.
16,205. Have you knitted lately for Mr. Sinclair?-I have knitted
for him for a long time. I think it is about a fortnight since I sold
my last hap to him. It was between 11/2 and 13/4 yards.
16,206. What kind of wool was it made of?-Just common wool
of different kinds-grey and black and white.
16,207. Was it worth about 2d. per hundred?-It would be worth
about that.
16,208. What did you sell it for?-6s.; that was what I commonly
got for these little haps.
16,209. Did you sell it for that price in goods?-I was to get
anything I wanted. I have something to get yet. I got tea and
soap, or anything I required, and I shall get the rest as I need it.
16,210. Was that about the ordinary price which you got for a hap
of that size and quality?-Yes. If I could make them bigger, I
would get more money, perhaps 10s., and from that down to 6s.
[Page 411]
16,211. How long have you been dealing with Mr. Sinclair?-I
have dealt with him from 1840 or 1845.
16,212. Have you always been paid by him in goods during that
time?-Yes, when I asked them; but if I asked any other thing I
got whatever I asked.
16,213. Have you bought articles for money in Mr. Sinclair's
shop?-It was not very often that he got any money from us; but
when I wanted anything from him, I found there was no difference
whether I paid for it in money or in goods.
16,214. Do you mean that you paid the same price for the goods
which you bought, whether you paid for them in money or in
hosiery?-Just the same; I never saw any difference.
16,215. Are there not two prices in Mr. Sinclair's shop?-Not so
far as I know; but I can only speak for myself.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, WILLIAM GARRIOCK, examined.
16,216. Do you live in Sandsting parish?-Yes.
16,217. Are you serving in the Naval Reserve in Lerwick just
now?-Yes.
16,218. Have you been bred to the sea?-Yes.
16,219. Where have you been at sea?-I have gone to Greenland
and Davis Straits, for the most part.
16,220. Have you ever been at the Faroe fishing or at the ling
fishing?-No.
16,221. Have you been south?-Yes, I was south for a short time;
but I have generally gone to the seal or whale fishing since I was
able to go.
16,222. From what agents have you got your engagement?-From
Mr. Joseph Leask, Mr. George Reid Tait, and Messrs. Laurenson
& Co.
16,223. How long have you been doing that?-Since 1854. I have
been in Greenland almost every year since then.
16,224. Did you always get your outfit from the agent with whom
you were engaged?-Always.
16,225. And some supplies for your family besides?-Yes.
16,226. Did you keep an account in the agent's shop, from which
your family got what they wanted during your absence?-Yes.
16,227. Did your wife get all her supplies from Lerwick?-No; she
got most of them from shops in our own neighbourhood, because it
was a long distance to come to Lerwick; but sometimes she sent
here, and sometimes not.
16,228. Why did she send here for them?-Sometimes she had to
send here for money when she could not get money from her
neighbours.
16,229. Did she get money here whenever she wanted it?-Yes, so
far as ever I knew.
16,230. Did she have allotment notes?-Yes, towards the end of
the time, but not at first.
16,231. Did you always take allotment notes for her use while you
were absent?-I have done so lately.
16,232. Are these allotment notes taken in her name?-Yes; but
sometimes I have been so much indebted to the agent before I left,
that I had to leave the allotment note with him until he was paid.
16,233. Have you done that lately?-Yes.
16,234. Had you been in his debt before you engaged with him?-
No. I got into his debt at the time of engaging. I got a lot of things
from him then.
16,235. Did you leave your allotment note in his hands as a
security for the payment of these supplies?-Yes.
16,236. Was the note taken in the agent's name?-No; it was
taken in my wife's name, and she was supplied by him if she
required anything.
16,237. Who was the agent you engaged with last year?-Messrs.
Laurenson & Co. I also engaged with them the year before. The
year before that, I think I engaged with Mr. Joseph Leask.
16,238. In all these years did you run up a pretty large account at
the agent's shop?-Yes; I always had an account with the agent.
16,239. Did you settle that account before you went up to the
Custom House to be paid your wages?-No. Sometimes the agent
was at the Custom House to receive payment of his account there,
and sometimes I went down to his shop and paid him after I had
been paid myself.
16,240. But was the account settled in the book, and the amount
due by you to him ascertained before you went up to the Custom
House?-Yes.
16,241. Was that done always?-No, not of late.
16,242. Why did you get supplies from Lerwick when you could
have got them nearer home, without giving your wife the trouble
of sending so far for them?-Sometimes, perhaps, I could not get
credit from a neighbour.
16,243. Could your wife not have got money from the agent in
Lerwick by sending in her allotment note to him?-If I was in debt
to the agent, I could not expect him to advance money until he was
paid his debt; but I never saw an agent refusing money, even
although there was an account due to him.
16,244. Did you ever ask money and get it when there was an
account due?-Yes.
16,245. Do you mean that your wife asked for money when you
were away?-Yes.
16,246. Did she require it for any particular purpose when she
asked it in that way?-I cannot say.
16,247. Did you ever know of her asking for money in order to buy
supplies near home?-No, I never knew that.
16,248. Do you think she would have been likely to?-I don't
think it. I think if she had ever done it, I would have known.
16,249. Do you think she would have got the money if she had
asked it for that purpose?-I am sure she would.
16,250. Then why did she not do it instead of carrying her supplies
all the way from Lerwick?-I don't know as to that.
16,251. How far is it from Lerwick to your place?-I never heard
of it being measured, but I should say it is over twenty miles.
16,252. You say the agent keeps your allotment notes, even
although they are in name of your wife?-Yes, if I am indebted
to him.
16,253. Don't they require to be signed by your wife?-Not at
first.
16,254. But afterwards?-Yes; if she has a note, then of course she
has to sign it before she gets the money.
16,255. But she does not require to sign it when she gets supplies;
these are set down to the account?-Yes; she does not require to
sign it unless she is drawing her half-pay at the Custom House.
16,256. Has she ever drawn her half-pay, so long as you
remember?-Yes.
16,257. Is that long ago?-It is perhaps a couple of years ago.
16,258. How much of it did she draw then?-She drew half a
month's pay every month when I was away.
16,259. What did she do with that?-I suppose she required it.
16,260. Did she spend it at home or in Lerwick?-I cannot say.
16,261. Was the allotment note in the agent's hands at that
time?-No.
16,262. She had got the allotment note that year herself?-Yes.
16,263. You had sent it to her before you went away?-Yes.
16,264. Then at that time you had not run up a large account with
the agent?-Not very much.
16,265. Had you any account with the agent that year at all?-I
don't remember; I don't think it was very much.
16,266. There might have been a little for some articles of outfit,
perhaps?-Perhaps there was.
16,267. When you settle at the Custom House, are you ever told by
the agent's clerk who goes up to hand [Page 412] you the money,
that he expects you down at the shop to settle your account
there?-Yes; but I usually go first to the shop and see what my
account with the agent there is, and then I pay him immediately
afterwards, either at the Custom House or at the shop, as soon as
I am paid myself.
16,268. Are you expected to go down and pay your account at
once?-Yes.
16,269. Are you ever spoken to about going at once?-No, I have
never been told to go at once; but I understand it is my business to
pay it at once, as long as I am able to do it.
16,270. Is it expected that the men going on a Greenland voyage
are to take their supplies, partly at least, from the agent's shop?-I
don't know if it is expected or not. I suppose it is expected, but a
man may buy his outfit wherever he pleases.
16,271. Did you ever know a man buying it elsewhere than at the
agent's shop?-I have bought some articles elsewhere myself.
16,272. Did you ever buy the whole of your articles anywhere
else?-Yes.
16,273. Why did you buy any of them elsewhere?-I was not very
particular about where I went. If I had money in my hand I went
to any place that was most suitable, or where I could get the most
suitable articles.
16,274. Did you often do that?-Not often. I more frequently had
an account with the agent.
16,275. When you go to make an engagement in the agent's shop
for a voyage, are you sometimes asked if you want anything?-No,
I am never asked that, unless if I happen to be running an account
he may ask if have got all my things, or something like that.
16,276. Does he not usually ask you that?-I cannot say that he
does.
16,277. Is there any difficulty nowadays in getting berths in
Greenland ships?-Sometimes there is because there are not
many ships that come here.
16,278. Are there more men than berths?-Sometimes that is the
case.
16,279. When that is the case, what kind of men have the best
chance of being engaged?-I don't know.
16,280. Do you think a man who owes an account to the agent,
or who is to keep an account with him, has a better chance than
another?-I cannot say that he has.
16,281. Do you think the men have that impression?-I believe
they do have that impression; but whether it is a right impression
or not I cannot say.
16,282. Have you learned from some of the men themselves that
such an impression exists?-No, not from the men themselves.
16,283. Then how do you know that they think so?-I have no real
knowledge on the subject; only I know that is said to be the case.
16,284. Who says it?-I cannot mention any particular person that
I have heard it from. Perhaps when they see a man engaged for a
ship, when they do not have a chance themselves, they may think
there is some cause like that to account for it.
16,285. Then some of the men do think that they have a better
chance of a berth if they have an account with the agent?-I have
merely heard that said; I have no experience of it myself.
16,286. Do you think that if you were not to come down from the
Custom House at once and pay your account in the agent's shop,
you would have a chance of getting a berth from that agent next
year?-I believe I would.
16,287. Why do you think so?-Because, if I was due the agent an
account, he might perhaps think that I would make a better voyage
in another year, and that I might then be more able to pay him.
16,288. But do you think he would have anything to do with you
if you refused to pay your account to him at the settlement in
November: do you think in that case that you would have a chance
of getting another engagement from him in February or March?-I
suppose I would have a chance.
16,289. Would he not say that he would have nothing more to do
you, because you had not paid your previous account?-No; I
never saw that done.
16,290. Is that because you have always paid your account in
proper time?-I don't know; but I always have paid my account
when I could.
16,291. Did you ever know of any man who did not pay his
account to the agent as soon as he got his money at the Custom
House?-No, I never knew of any man who did not do that.
16,292. Did you ever hear that spoken of?-No; I never heard
about anything of that kind.
16,293. Did you never hear the men talk among themselves about
that matter?-No.
16,294. What do you think would happen if you did not go down at
once to the agent's shop and pay your account whenever you got
your money at the Custom House?-So far as I know, I don't think
anything would happen at all.
16,295. Do you think the agent would look after you?-I have
been due things myself for about a year but he never looked after
me. That was before I was paid at the Custom House.
16,296. Then you had settled with the agent in office on that
occasion?-Yes; and left a balance due.
16,297. Were you due that balance to the agent for twelve months
afterwards?-Yes.
16,298. Did the same agent get you a berth in a Greenland ship in
the following year?-No; I left that agent and went to another for
that year.
16,299. Did that other agent take the balance over and become
responsible for it?-Yes; it was brought into the next agent's
books.
16,300. Who was the agent who took over your debt in that
way?-I was once due an account in that way to Mr. George
Reid Tait, and I afterwards found it in Mr. Leask's books.
16,301. Did you not know of that until you found it in Mr. Leask's
books at settlement?-I knew I was due the account.
16,302 You knew you were due it to Mr. Tait but did you know
that it had been transferred to Mr. Leask until you found it in the
book?-No; I did not know that until then.
16,303. Were you surprised to find it charged in Mr. Leask's books
against you?-No; I was not surprised at all.
16,304. Did you expect to find it there?-No, not exactly; but of
course I would have paid it if I had been able.
16,305. Did that happen to you more than once?-No; only once,
to my recollection, in that way.
16,306. Did it ever happen to you in any other way-It happened
once in this way: that I supposed I was due an account to Mr.
Leask in one year, and I found the account standing in his books
against me next year.
16,307. Did you change your agent that year?-No.
16,308. How long is it since your account with Mr. Tait was
transferred to Mr. Leask?-I cannot say exactly, but I think it
will be more than twelve years ago.
16,309. Have you never had a balance against you since at
settlement?-No.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ROSS GEORGESON, examined.
16,310. Are you a seaman living at Scalloway?-Yes; I am skipper
of a Faroe smack.
16,311. In whose employment have you been lately?-Mr.
Leask's.
16,312. For how many years have you gone to the Faroe fishing?-
I have gone every year for about fifteen or sixteen years.
16,313. Are you now serving your time in the Naval Reserve?-
Yes.
[Page 413]
16,314. Have you always had an account in the books of Mr. Leask
when you were engaged in his smacks?-Yes.
16,315. Did you settle that account with him every year?-Yes.
16,316. Have you been employed in his service at any other part of
the year, except when you went to the Faroe fishing?-No; but
lately I have gone a voyage or two to the south with fish in winter.
16,317. Do your family get their supplies from Mr. Leask's shop in
Lerwick?-Yes.
16,318. All the year round?-No; only when it is convenient.
For instance, when we go round to Scalloway with the vessel, we
generally take a good stock of things with us, which helps us
through part of the season.
16,319. Do you not take goods across the country to Scalloway
sometimes when any of your family happen to be in Lerwick?-
Only very little.
16,320. Do you settle about December or January every year?-
Generally about the 1st of December.
16,321. Do you get the balance which is due to you then in
cash?-Yes.
16,322. Do you sometimes get advances in money during the
course of the year?-Yes; I get what I require.
16,323. How much do you generally get in money before the
settlement?-Generally between summer and winter I may run
an account of about £30 or £40 for myself and the vessel.
16,324. But what do you get in your private account?-Just what
money I require, and what I ask. I may perhaps ask £4 or £5 or £6
at a time, just as I need it.
16,325. Is it for any particular purpose that you ask for so much?-
No; there is no particular purpose ever mentioned.
16,326. Do you think you would get all the money that was due to
you at any time before settlement if you asked for it?-I have no
doubt of that; but there is generally an account run.
16,327. Do you take out goods in the course of the year when you
want them?-Yes, when it is convenient to get them to Scalloway.
16,328. Suppose you did not take out any goods at all, but wanted
to get the whole in cash, do you suppose you would get that?-
Yes.
16,329. Have you ever asked for it all in cash?-No; because I
leave my money along with Mr. Leask.
16,330. What do you mean by leaving your money along with
him?-I get the same interest for my money when it is in his
hands as I would get from the bank.
16,331. Then when you settle you don't always draw the whole
balance that is due to you?-No.
16,332. You leave it in Mr. Leask's hands, and get interest allowed
to you for it in your next account?-Yes.
16,333. Did you always have an account with him?-Yes.
16,334. Do all the men in the smacks keep accounts with the
owner of the smack for their supplies?-Yes, so far as I know.
16,335. Do they all get money when they ask for it?-I never
heard anything else. I never heard any man say that he had asked
for money and did not get it.
16,336 Do they generally ask for much money?-I don't know. I
suppose every man asks for what he requires, or according to what
he has to get.
16,337. Are they not expected to get their supplies at the
merchant's shop?-It is just as they like.
16,338. Of course it is just as they like, but are they not expected
to get a part of their supplies in the shop?-I suppose so. They
always do so.
16,339. Are there as many men to be had for the Faroe fishing as
are wanted to man the smacks?-Yes. There has been no scarcity
in time past.
16,340. Do you know of any men who go to the Faroe fishing and
draw money from the owner in the course of the season for the
support of their families, and who do not get any supplies at all?-
No. , They generally take their goods for the voyage from the
merchant, whether they take anything else or not; but I never knew
any men who did not take some supplies from him.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ARTHUR MOFFAT, examined.
16,341. Are you a seaman living at Lochside, Lerwick?-Yes.
16,342. Are you now serving in the Naval Reserve?- Yes.
16,343. Where have you been employed?-I have been going to
the seal and whale fishing.
16,344. Have you ever been at Faroe or at the ling fishing?-No.
16,345. What agents have you engaged with for the Greenland
voyage?-I have been out for the whole of them.
16,346. Did you always keep an account for supplies with the
agent who engaged you?-Yes.
16,347. Was that settled at his office before 1867?-Yes.
16,348. Since that year it has been settled at the Custom House?-
Yes.
16,349. Do you always go straight down from the Custom House
to the agent's office and pay your account?-Yes.
16,350. Are you expected to go straight down?-I don't know, but
I think it my duty to do so.
16,351. Are you expected to take some of your supplies from the
agent who engages you?-We just take them as we require them.
16,352. But if you require supplies or an outfit, are you expected
to take them from the agent who engages you?-Yes, we can do
nothing else but take them from him; we cannot go to a strange
shop for them, because they would not give them to us.
16,353. Why would they not give you credit at it strange shop?-
Because they do no business with us, and perhaps they would not
know us.
16,354. Would you not have your first month's pay in advance
with which to buy what you wanted?-Not very often, because I
don't take it out in that way.
16,355 But you could it?-Yes.
16,356. And if you had it you could get what you wanted at
another shop?-Yes.
16,357. When you go in to engage with an agent does he, or do his
shop-people, ask you if you want anything?-No.
16,358. Do you generally get an advance note?-Yes, we get it,
but we leave it with the agent; at least I do.
16,359. Why do you leave it with the agent?-Because I find the
half-pay too little for the support of my wife and family during my
absence. They require more supplies than that, and they get them
out of the agent's shop.
16,360. Has that been your practice for a long time?-It has.
16,361. Have you always engaged with the same agent for a
number of years back?-Yes, I have engaged with Mr. Leask
for some time.
16,362. Have you always got your supplies at his shop?-Yes.
16,363. You said you could not get credit anywhere else: is that
because Mr. Leask has the command of the money you are to
get?-No, it is not that, because we get the money if we want it.
16,364. You could get the money if you wanted it on an allotment
note, but not otherwise?-Yes.
16,3 65. Do you say that you could get a larger amount of supplies
at Mr. Leask's shop than your allotment note would pay for if you
had it?-I do.
16,366. Have you a balance to receive at the end of the year when
you settle with Mr. Leask?-Generally.
16,367. Are you never in his debt at settlement?-No.
[Page 414]
16,368. Does your wife get cash from Mr. Leask when she wants
it?-Yes.
16,369. How much does she generally get?-I don't know.
16,370. Did she ever get 5s. at a time?-Perhaps she got the whole
half-pay at a time if she wanted it, or the half of it.
16,371. Was that if she wanted it for any particular purpose, such
as for paying rent?-Yes, or any necessary thing.
16,372. But it was only for a necessary purpose that she got it?-I
suppose so.
16,373. Is it generally understood among the men in the whaling,
that they ought to deal with the agent who engages them for a
voyage?-No. We can deal with any person we like.
16,374. But don't they always deal with the agent who engages
them, taking their outfit and their supplies for home from him?-
Yes.
16,375. Do you think that if a man did not deal with the agent he
would be as likely to get a berth next year as if he had kept an
account with him?-Just the same; I never found any difference.
16,376. But did you ever go to another agent for your supplies than
the one who had engaged you?-No, not in that particular season;
but I have changed agents occasionally.
16,377. How long is it since you were engaged by another agent
than Mr. Leask?-Two years. I changed from Laurenson & Co.
to Mr. Leask then.
16,378. Why did you change?-Just to fall in with the ship that I
wanted to go in. That was my only reason.
16,379. Were you clear with Laurenson & Co. when you
changed?-Yes.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, JAMES LAURENSON, examined.
16,380. Are you a seaman residing at Mews, in Dunrossness?-I
am.
16,381. Are you serving at present in the Naval Reserve?-Yes.
16,382. What trade have you been engaged in as a seaman?-I
have mostly been in the south.
16,383. Have you been in the Faroe fishing?-No.
16,384. Have you been at the ling fishing?-I was two years in the
ling fishing at Mews, about eight or nine years ago, for Mr. Robert
Mullay.
16,385. Did you keep accounts with him then for your supplies?-
Not for supplies, only for fishing material.
16,386. Did you get any advances of money from him?-I did not
ask for any; I did not want them at the time.
16,387. Would you have got advances of money if you had asked
for them when you were not taking supplies?-I expect I would.
16,388. But you did not want the money, and you did not ask for
it?-I did not ask for it.
Lerwick, February 5, 1872, ALEXANDER GOODLAD, examined.
16,389. What are you?-I am a seaman, and I live in Lerwick.
16,390. I understand you wish to make some statement about the
sealing and whaling voyages?-Yes. If I ask a half-pay note from
an agent, it cannot keep my family, and I am not much acquainted
with any person except the agent who will give me credit and
therefore I don't know where to get supplies for them in my
absence except through him.
16,391. What is the amount of your wages?-Usually 50s., and my
half-pay is usually 25s.
16,392. Do you commonly run an account with the agent?-Yes.
16,393. Is your reason for doing so that your halfpay is too
small?-Yes.
16,394. Did you ever try to get credit anywhere else except from
the agent who engaged you?-I have.
16,395. Were you refused?-Sometimes, but not always.
16,396. What reason was given for refusing you credit?-They
said they did not know me.
16,397. Was that by a merchant in Lerwick?-Yes.
16,398. Were you asked on these occasions whether you were
running an account elsewhere?-Yes; and I was told to go to the
agent's for what I wanted.
16,399. Do the tradesmen here expect that you will get your
supplies from the agent who engages you for the whaling
voyage?-Commonly they do.
16,400. And they don't care for giving credit to men who are
running an account with the agent?-No.
16,401. Were you running an account with the agent also at the
time when you applied for credit in that way?-No; I was clear
with the agent at that time.
16,402. Did you get no supplies from him at the beginning of the
voyage?-No; but I have sometimes got supplies from the agents
before I went on another voyage.
16,403. What merchant refused you credit in the way you have
mentioned?-It was some of them who did not know me in
Lerwick.
16,404. Did they refuse because they knew that the agent had the
command of your money, and could keep it for his own account if
he had one?-Yes.
16,405. Did they say so?-No, they did not make that statement
exactly; but they told me that when a man was getting a ship from
an agent he should go and get his things from him.
16,406. Did any merchant refuse to give you goods, and give you
that reason for his refusal?-Yes.
16,407. Was he an agent in the whaling trade?-No, he was not.
16,408. Had you an account at that time with any agent?-Yes.
16,409. I thought you said you had not?-I was done with the
agent, and had signed clear in his books.
16,410. What season of the year was that?-In February.
16,411. Do you engage then for the rising season?-I engage for it
in the month of March.
16,412. Do you then open an account with the agent for your
supplies?-Yes.
16,413. Then is it quite an understood thing that man who engages
with an agent for a Greenland voyage must get his supplies from
that agent's shop?-If his goods are as cheap and its good as any
other person's, they commonly take them from his shop; but if not,
they usually make a change with the first month's advance they
get, and buy what they want where they can get it cheapest and
best.
16,414. Did you ever do that?-Yes.
16,415. Do you always do it?-There are many things which the
agents do not keep, and therefore we have to go to different places
for what we want.
16,416. Do you get money from the agents for that purpose?-
Yes; we get our first month's advance on signing, and then they
will give us supplies in addition for two or three months I suppose,
or as much as we have a mind to take.
16,417. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House, when
you were getting your pay, about going down to the shop and
settling your account?-I commonly settle my account before I go
up to the Custom House.
16,418. But you don't pay your money until after you have been at
the Custom House?-No.
16,419. Have you ever been spoken to at the Custom House by the
agent, or his clerk, about going down to the office and paying the
money that was due?-Yes. I was told last year by Mr. Leask's
clerk, Mr. Jamieson, to go down and pay the balance which I was
due.
[Page 415]
16,420. Did he tell you that in the Custom House or at the
office?-At the office, when we got our account of wages.
16,421. That was before you went up to get your money at all?-
Yes.
16,422. He told you then to come back with it?-Yes; and to pay
the balance due.
16,423. Is not that always done when you go to settle your
account?-No.
16,424. Is it not often done?-No; only that was the time anything
of the kind had been said to me.
16,425. Did you ever hear it said to anybody else?-No.
<Adjourned>.
LERWICK: TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 6,1872.
JOHN HARRISON, examined.
16,426. What are you?-I am a merchant in Lerwick.
16,427. Have you been for a long time a partner of the firm of
Harrison & Son?-Yes, since 1856.
16,428. I understand you have had large experience in the
management of the Faroe fishing business?-Yes.
16,429. Have you also had some experience with regard to the ling
fishing?-Not a great deal; but I have had some.
16,430. Has your firm had any connection with the management of
land or property in Shetland?-None whatever.
16,431. Have you neither been tacksmen nor proprietors?-My
father is a proprietor to a very small extent.
16,432. But you have not been in any way dependent for your
supplies of fishermen upon any interest or connection with
land?-In no way whatever.
16,433. Did you find the absence of that connection with land to
be any inconvenience to you in the management of your business,
with regard to getting fishermen?-None whatever; but men have
been hindered from engaging with us, in consequence of being
under the power of tacksmen or landlords, who wished to engage
them for themselves, although they would have preferred to have
gone into our service.
16,434. Has that occurred in many cases?-I cannot state the
number of cases, but it has occurred in many, and within recent
times.
16,435. Can you give an instance of that without mentioning
names?-I could not particularize the instances at the present
moment, but if I had time I am prepared to bring forward more
than a dozen instances within a period of between two and four
years back.
16,437. Are you now speaking with regard to your supply of Faroe
fishermen?-Yes.
16,437. Is it not the case, that where tenants are bound fish for
their landlord or tacksman, that obligation only applies to the ling
fishing if they engage in it but that they and their families are
quite free to go to the Faroe fishing or the whale fishing if they
please?-Under the system which obtains in Shetland, it makes no
difference what fishery a man may go to. He is bound to do what
the landlord or the tacksman wishes; if not the result is merely the
service of a warning to the parents; and of course, in consequence
of the injury which that would do to them, the children, out of
their kindness to them, must submit to any rules which may be
laid down for their observance.
16,438. The evidence which has been led before me before, of
fishermen and of proprietors, has been to this effect, that the
obligation upon a man to fish for the proprietor or tacksman
extends only to the ling fishing, if he is engaged in it, and that if
he chooses to go to the Faroe fishing he is at perfect liberty to do
so?-I know of no such obligation.
16,439. Has your experience been different?-Entirely different.
16,440. Does your experience not apply to cases where the tenant
may have been in debt?-When the tenant is in debt, it is utterly
impossible for him to go and serve another man. But I was
referring to the case of parties who were quite free of debt, and
who had money in their own possession.
16,441. How many of these cases have come within your
knowledge within the last two or three years?-I could not
particularize them. There have been several cases which have
come under my own notice, or the notice of my firm, although
I could not state the number; but from hearsay, and from the talk
of men who are serving other owners, I am led to believe that a
very great number of these cases has occurred. I do not mean to
say that there was actual straightforward force put upon the men;
but there were certain innuendoes, by which they knew perfectly
well that if they did not do as the tacksman or landlord wished, the
result would be that they would be warned out.
16,442. Can you mention the circumstances of any particular case
in which men have been prevented from going to the Faroe fishing
in any of your vessels?-I can particularize one instance which
came very vividly before me. There were two brothers, who had
been with my firm since they were boys. I had rather a respect for
them both, because they were honest men and capital fishermen.
One of the boys came to me and said, 'I find that I cannot go in
the vessel I wished to go in this year, because I am told by the
tacksman that my parents will be warned. My brother can go; but
if he does, he will have to pay so much for the liberty of going in
the vessel that he wishes to go in.' I had no reason to doubt the
correctness of that statement, because, notwithstanding his evident
anxiety to get into the vessel belonging to us, in which he wished
to go, and in which he had been serving before, he did not go in
her; and it was the evident pressure that had been put upon him
which hindered him from going.
16,443. Is that the most striking case of the kind that you have
come across in your business experience?-I cannot say that it is
the most striking case, but it is the case which appears at the
present moment most patent to me, because we were so directly
interested in it ourselves.
16,444. How long is it since that happened?-Three or four years
ago; I cannot say precisely.
16,445. Is that the only way in which your not having connection
with land has interfered with your business; or do you find it a
disadvantage with regard to the manning of your own vessels, not
to have landed property under your control?-No, I don't find that
to be a disadvantage; I find that we have been the most successful
owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade of any in the country;
and the reason is simply this, that the men who come to us are free
men-men who are not bound, neither will be bound, by tacksmen
or landlords but men who have been able to earn money by
superior energy; but we have had to do a great deal in order to
obtain such it class of men, and we have had to lose a great deal
of money which other people perhaps have put into their pockets.
16,446. Do you mean that you have lost it great deal of money in
order to secure this superior class of men?- Yes.
16,447. But has not the fact that you have procured them, proved
remunerative to you in the end?- [Page 416] Of course it has. It
has been a gain to the men, and it has also been it gain to us.
16,448. Do you find that a man who is in debt is its good a
fisherman, in your experience, as one who keeps clear of debt?-
By no means. My experience has been, on more than fifty
different occasions, that although men were due us from £5 to
£18 or £20, we would not engage them again if the captains of the
vessels said they were not fishermen who were worth being taken,
and would rather lose the balances against them in our books than
employ them.
16,449. Then you consider it an erroneous statement, that it is
advantageous for a merchant in Shetland to obtain a great number
of debtors?-I consider it to be the most erroneous statement that
ever was made.
16,450. You are aware, I suppose, that that statement was made in
the evidence of a witness who was examined in Edinburgh?-Yes,
I read something of that kind in the evidence; but I think it was
erroneous. I suppose Mr. Walker, when he made it, thoroughly
believed that the parties to whom he referred believed that having
a number of debtors was the best thing they could possibly have;
but my impression is quite different, because the fishermen who
are in debt do not have the same energy, nor do they exert
themselves so much in procuring fish as other men who are free.
If the fishcurer who had so many debtors had called them in and
said to them, 'Now men, I will strike off the balances against you,
and you will get no more supplies until you bring fish ashore,' I
have not the slightest doubt that at the end of the season the result
would have been it great gain to him, and a great gain to the
fishermen.
16,451. But you think that other parties in Shetland may have
acted upon the principle referred to in Mr. Walker's evidence,
although you do not approve of it?-They may have done so, and
I have no doubt they have, because it is a common axiom in
Shetland that if once you get a man into debt you have a hold over
him. No doubt you have a hold over him, but it is simply a hold
over a very unwilling slave.
16,452. However, you have acted upon a different principle?-I
have always endeavoured to do so as much as possible.
16,453. And you think you have been justified in doing so by the
results?-Decidedly.
16,454. Can you give me any particular instance in which you
proved the superiority of men who were free from debt to those
who were in debt?-I can give general instances of that. In an
island called Hildesha, belonging to my father, the men were
accustomed to cast their fish, as it is called, green, and to get
payment at so much per cwt. when they were landed green on
shore. I found, after three or four years' experience, that at the
settlements the men were getting into debt, although they were
very good fishermen; indeed there were no better fishermen on the
west side of Shetland. When I asked them the reason they said,
'Will you give us liberty to cure and dry our fish, and to sell them
to you, or to Messrs. Garriock & Co., when they are dry?' I said,
'Certainly, if you think that will better your condition. Our house
is an exporter of fish to Spain, its well as Garriock & Co., and I
expect that you will not give them the fish at the same price which
we will give you for them, but that you will rather give us the
preference, seeing you are tenants of my father.' The men said
that of course I should get the fish immediately they were dried,
and they thought that would be an advantage to them. The result
of that was, that the men reaped a great benefit; and although some
of them afterwards, left the island in debt to the extent of £50, the
best of them are now free men, and have money of their own in
bank.
16,455. Is it long ago since that happened?-It is more than four or
five years since they left the island.
16,456. How long is it since they paid off their debts?-I think not
more than three years ago, some of them.
16,457. Was that not binding the tenants to deliver their fish to you
in the same way as proprietors do, whose method you disapprove
of?-Certainly not. I stated distinctly that if they offered their fish
to Garriock & Co., and could get more money from them, then
they were at liberty to sell to them. There was no stipulation
whatever to the effect that these men were to deliver their fish to
us.
16,458. Except that they were to give you the preference?-That
was not at all stated. They simply gave us the preference, because
they had a notion-a very foolish notion-that we might have
acted in the same way as other parties would probably have acted
if they had not done so: that was, by giving them a warning and
turning them out of the island.
16,459. Did you not say that you stipulated with the men for that
preference?-No, I did not stipulate for it. When I said to them
that I expected they would give us the preference I did so not in
the way of a threat, but, seeing that the men were tenants of ours,
and that they had no reason to be dissatisfied with any supplies
which they might receive, from our house during the time of the
fishing, I felt that they were right in giving us the fish. I don't
deny, however, that there was a certain sort of coercion upon
them, from the very fact of my father being their landlord.
16,460 Have you considered the existing system in Shetland with
the view of suggesting a remedy for the grievances which are
alleged to exist?-I have thought it great deal over it, and our firm
has suffered a great deal in consequence of the existing state of
affairs, in the way I have already referred to; but certainly the
remedy one can hardly point out
16,461 What do you consider to be the principal evils which
exist?-The principal evil in Shetland arises from the system of
land tenure, whereby no man has a lease; or if he gets a lease and
if he is a fisherman, that lease is such that it is impossible for him
to continue to be a fisherman, and to prosecute the fishing with
energy. It is those who have no leases who are so bound down that
they cannot do anything in the least degree contrary to the wish of
the landlord or tacksman. I may give one instance of that, which is
rather ludicrous. I was down at Sandwick parish the other day,
and I was very anxious to bring up some fowls to town if I could
get them to buy. I sent a man round to see if he could get any for
me, but he called back saying that although I had offered about
twice the value for each of the fowls, he had found it quite
impossible to purchase them, as it was an agreement between
landlord and tenants, although the tenants had no leases whatever,
that they had to deliver so many fowls about the month of
February to the landlord. I don't know whether the landlord gave
credit for these fowls and took the value of them off the rent; but
my impression is that it was something over and above the rent, as
a present for being allowed to sit without leases.
16,462. Was not that just part of the rent as kain was formerly
paid, and is now paid in some parts of Scotland?-I don't think
it was, because there is no account of rent in which that item is
marked down, so far as I know.
16,463. But I suppose the obligation to fish which is imposed
upon yearly tenants is the principal objection which you have to
the present system of landholding?-Decidedly.-
16,464. It what way does it operate injuriously this way: that
neither I, nor any man who has any amount of capital, can come
forward and by competition enable these fishermen to get a larger
price for their fish.
16,465. But the arrangement with these fishermen all cases is
stated to be, that they get the current price at the end of the
season. Would that current price be any higher than it is now if
the tenantry of Shetland were not so bound?-I am speaking just
now of the benefit to the fishermen, not of the benefit to the
fishcurers. I think the current price at the end of the year might
in many cases be less, even with greater competition, if the parties
bought the fish green from the fishermen, all the fishermen being
free, because several of them no doubt would be obliged to sell
their fish at an early period of the year when they might not obtain
a good price. That would therefore bring down the market, and
the result would be that the fishermen [Page 417] in that way
would get less money if a current price were fixed then. But with
regard to the benefit to the fishermen, I think that if there was a
system of cash payments the competition would ensure the highest
price to the fishermen; and of course the parties who bought would
have to take the risk, the same as every merchant does who buys
an article in every other trade in the world.
16,466. If you were introducing a system of cash payments, how
would you propose to work it in the ling fishing?-That is a very
difficult question to answer. In the case of the ling fishing, as well
as in other fisheries, the only way would be to pay the men when
they came on shore, as the fish were weighed out of the boat.
16,467. Would you pay them the whole amount according to
a price fixed at the beginning of the season or at the time of
delivery?-At the time of delivery, not at the beginning of the
season.
16,468. Then that price would vary according to the state of the
market?-Yes. If the price were fixed at the beginning of the
season, and if one boat or twenty beats fished to one man, the
result would be that that party would have the power over these
men, so that no other competitor could come forward, although the
markets might rise to the extent of from 1s. to 2s. 6d. per cwt.
16,469. Then you would not only have the price fixed at the time
of delivering the fish, but you would give up the existing practice
of engaging a boat's crew to fish for the whole of the season?-
Decidedly. In the case of the ling fishing I would leave power to
the boat's crew to sell to whom they liked.
16,470. In that case would there be any choice but to deliver to any
fish-curer whose station happened to be most convenient for the
crew?-The distances in Shetland between the different stations
are sometimes very considerable, and of course a fisherman would
be obliged to deliver his fish to any party who had a station near
his house, if no other person came forward, but by the existing law
any person who wished to go into the trade could come forward
and erect a booth on the shore, and put up all the paraphernalia
necessary for the curing and drying of fish, no matter on whose
ground it might be. There are plenty of beaches in Shetland; and if
the fishermen at a station came on shore and found that they could
get a higher price from any competitor who came forward, other
than the person who had a booth erected on that beach, they would
be quite entitled to sell their fish to that other party, who could
cure his fish on the beach, seeing that the party who held the beach
did not have any fish to cure on it himself, no matter to whom the
property belongs.
16,471. Is it not the practice in Shetland for proprietors to let their
beaches?-It has been the practice, but it is not legal. The practice
has generally been to charge 1s. per ton for the curing of fish on
the beach; there is no such thing in Shetland as a beach let, but the
tenants or small crofters who want to eke out their incomes can
cure fish, or rather dry them, for themselves on paying perhaps 1s.
per ton to the landlord or to the tacksmaster, for the privilege of
drying the fish on the beaches below the crofts which they occupy.
16,472. Is it within your knowledge that 1s. per ton is generally
paid by every crofter who cures fish on the beach adjacent to his
holding?-That is quite within my knowledge, because our firm
have paid it to more than twenty small crofters who have been
drying fish for us, and they have then had to pay it to their landlord
or tacksman.
16,473. Do you mean that that charge has been made by the
crofters against you?-No, not made against us.
16,474. But they have made that charge, and you have agreed to
pay it as part of the price of their fish?-When I first went into the
trade 12s. per ton was paid for drying fish to the crofters to whom I
refer. After a short time they complained about the 1s. per ton
for the use of the beaches and our firm then raised the price of
curing to 14s. per ton, which we paid, if I mistake not, for two or
three years when no other firm in Shetland paid it. Now, as I
understand, other firms in Shetland are paying the same money,
14s. per ton for curing; but 12s. was the original price when I
entered into the trade.
16,475. Is that for drying also?-Yes.
16,476. If a price were fixed at the time of landing the fish, and
were paid in the way you mentioned, by one of several competing
purchasers, do you see any difficulty in the way of a fisherman
continuing to live and support himself, as an operative in any trade
has now to do?-There would be very great difficulty at first,
because the greater proportion of fishermen in Shetland are
dependent on the supplies which they receive from the fish-curer
to whom they fish. At many times the weather is so bad that
they have not sufficient to live upon, and are obliged to go to the
fish-curer and ask him for the necessaries of life for themselves
and their families.
16,477. But in a time of slackness in the iron trade, or any other
trade the same difficulty might beset the operative?-Yes, he
might be in want of supplies. I have no doubt that the operatives
in Lancashire and the manufacturing districts often suffer what our
Shetland fishermen have no conception of. I thoroughly believe,
however, that any sufferings which they might be exposed to in the
first instance might be relieved in some way, which I cannot at
present suggest; but still afterwards their condition would be
greatly improved, because such a system would give them a great
deal more self-reliance, and the knowledge that they were simply
getting payment for what they delivered would make them more
independent and more energetic. I believe the result would be a
greatly increased fishery in the islands, and the throwing over of
that serf spirit which exists at present among so many of the
tenants in the islands who fish.
16,478. Is it not the case that the Shetland fisherman has an
advantage over the operative in the south, in respect that he has
got a piece of land, which of itself is often sufficient to support
him and his family during the greater part of the year?-Generally
speaking, the crofts would do so. It would be a very poor croft
indeed which would not support them for at least six months a
year. In such a case the piece of ground must be very small, or at
all events it may be their own indolence which leads them not to
make the most of it; but in that way the Shetland fishermen have
a great advantage over the operatives in the town, who, if they do
not earn a day's wages, cannot get a single farthing's worth of
food, except from the charity of others.
16,479. But then it is said that the fishing is it more precarious
trade, and extends only over it period of the year in Shetland.
Does that not counterbalance any advantage which the fisherman
derives from having a croft?-It is true that the fishing is a
precarious trade, but we have always found that whenever the
weather permits, energetic men can make a very fair earning from
it. Of course, when the weather does not permit, it is impossible
they can do anything except in the way of inshore fishing; but
unless the weather is very bad indeed, if a man will only try he will
get as much from that as will save his family from starvation. I
think the advantage he has by his croft will compensate for any
disadvantage to which he is exposed by the occurrence of periods
of bad weather; and therefore I consider that his position is
infinitely superior to that of an operative in a time of strike or it
time of bad trade, when manufacturers are obliged to cast off their
hands from want of sufficient work to keep their mills or their
manufactories going.
16,480. Do you consider he would be better even if a system of
cash payments were introduced, and he did not fall back or
could not fall back upon the fish-curer when he was in want of
supplies?-I consider it would be much better.
16,481. Would a system of cash payments be an insuperable
obstacle in the way of a man of steady and respectable habits and
good repute, obtaining advances in provisions from any merchant
in his neighbourhood?-I believe it would help him very
considerably. I consider that if it system of cash payments was
introduced, [Page 418] a man would find a great deal more facility
in getting goods at the lowest possible price from any person who
might wish to put up a store in his neighbourhood.
16,482. Are you aware that a great amount of apprehension exists
among fishermen in Shetland lest any change in the present system
involving payments in cash should deprive them of the support
which they derive from the fish-merchants in bad seasons?-I am
aware that that is a very prevalent idea among them, and several
instances of it have come under my notice during the last two or
three years.
16,483. Are you of opinion that that apprehension may have had
some effect in making the fishermen unwilling to come forward
and to give evidence freely before this Commission?-I have
not the slightest doubt that that has prevented men from coming
forward who would have been able to have given the best possible
evidence with regard to the questions you have asked me.
16,484. Are you now speaking from your knowledge of the people
and of the system for many years?-I am speaking from my
experience of the people and of the system, which experience has
extended over more than 20 years.
16,485. Would it be possible to introduce a system of cash
payments in this way, by allowing the fish to be paid for at the
current price at the end of the season, if the parties so agreed, and
arranging that at delivery a certain proportion of the price should
be paid in cash: for example, that three-fourths of the average
price for the last five years should be paid them, leaving the
remainder of the price to be paid according to the current price
as ascertained at the end of the season, thus giving the men the
benefit of any rise which might take place in the market by that
time?-I am afraid that if such a system were adopted, the party
who got the fish from the men even on one occasion, and paid
three-fourths or two-thirds of the value of the fish delivered
according to the contract price, would have such a power over
the men, that, even supposing a competitor came forward, say in
a month afterwards, to buy their fish, they would not be able to sell
to him although he offered a higher price, because the knowledge
that there was a balance standing in the hands of the merchant to
whom they had sold in the first instance would hinder them from
taking advantage of the increased price from the other, for fear
they might not be treated in the way in which they ought to be at
the settlement.
16,486. But the question which I put assumed that the engagement
of the fishermen was for the whole season?-I cannot see how in
that case it would alter the system. It would remain the same as it
is at present, because, if the engagement was entered into for the
year, although there might be no contract or obligation on the
fishermen to take supplies from the man who bought their fish, yet
there would be a certain feeling on their part which would force
them, as it were, to go with their money which they had received
as part payment, and buy goods with it from his place. Therefore
the merchant might have the same monopoly which he at present
enjoys.
16,487. But if the men had the cash, would that monopoly be in
any way injurious,-if you can call it a monopoly where the men
have the choice between two shops, and voluntarily prefer that of
the fish-curer?-Under the present system of land tenure it would
have no effect, because whoever the landlord favoured, if the
landlord was not a fish-curer himself, would of necessity have the
preference in the dealings of the fishermen, as they would know
that under the present system they are liable to get forty days'
warning and be turned out of their farms at Martinmas.
16,488. Do you mean that under the present system the fishermen
would consider themselves bound to deal at the shop of the
landowner or tacksman if he were engaged in fishing?-If a
system of money payments were adopted they might not consider
themselves bound to do so, but there would be so many petty
vexations put upon them, that the men, out of regard for their
own comfort, would decidedly give the preference to the
tacksmaster's or the landlord's shop, if he happened to be in the
trade, notwithstanding that they might have to pay a trifle more for
the goods which they got at his shop.
16,489. Then is it your opinion that, without altering the system of
land tenure in Shetland, a system of cash payments would be
unavailing to improve the condition of the people?-If no landlord
and no tacksman under a landlord was in the fishery trade, then
an improvement might be effected, but so long as landlords and
tacksmen-who have power over the land sometimes to a much
greater degree than the landlord himself can exercise-are
fish-curers themselves, it is impossible that a system of cash
payments can have any effect in ameliorating the condition of the
fishermen as it now exists.
16,490. In what way do you think it possible to modify the system
of long settlements now existing with regard to the Faroe
fishing?-The only way possible, seeing that the voyage to Faroe
extends to six or nine weeks on an average, would be, that when
the agreements are made out a contract should be entered into
between the owner and fishermen along with these agreements,
providing that they are to deliver their fish at a certain price per
ton weighed out on their arrival at a port in Shetland, whatever
port they may agree to deliver them at.
16,491. Then, in the case of the Faroe fishery, you would suggest
that the price should be known before the vessel sails, and not,
as you propose with regard to the ling fishery, at the time of
delivery?-No, I don't say that. The difference is, that the owner
of a Faroe vessel, according to the present agreement, has the risk
of the vessel and of the outfit, and also of the salt and of materials
necessary for the prosecution of the fishery. In most cases, indeed
in all cases, he requires to give advances to a certain extent to the
crew, say from at the lowest to £7 or £8 in other cases. If he did
not have the power of getting the fish in his own hands, by having
a
contract from the men to deliver their fish to him at a certain
price rather than to others on their arrival after the first voyage the
men would have the power to deliver their fish perhaps to another
competitor, and the result would be, as is sometimes the case in
the Greenland trade at present, where the men are paid at the
Custom House, that his advances would not be paid to him at all.
The difference appears to me to consist in this, that the fish-curer
who gets the fish is the owner of the Faroe fishing vessel, whereas
in the ling fishing the men who fish in the boats are the owners of
them. That, in my opinion, makes a great difference.
16,492. It is part of the agreement in the Faroe fishing that the
merchant should have delivery of all the fish, and that he is
entitled to it, because he is the partner of the men in all that
they take?-That it is the agreement
16,493. Then you think it would be possible, and perhaps
expedient, that a settlement should take place at the return of
the vessel from each voyage?-I believe most of the owners
would agree to that; but my impression, from the feeling which
I know to exist among the fishermen, is, that they would have a
notion that they were lying under a disadvantage by making a
contract before the fishing commenced.
16,494. Do you think the fishermen get any advantage in the Faroe
trade from having their fish paid for at the current price at the end
of the season?-They get a very considerable advantage in that
way. We have been in the habit for several years of purchasing
fish from vessels owned by Englishmen, and manned by English
fishermen from Grimsby and Hull. We pay them a certain price
per ton, cash down, when the fish are landed on the beach, and we
are supposed to make, and I may say that we do make, a profit
upon these fish when they are sold in a dried state. Our fishermen,
generally speaking, get within a commission of the price that we
receive for these Englishmen's fish, which fish are quite as good
as our Shetland fish, and therefore they have the difference of the
profit which we make on the price we pay for the fish in a green or
wet state and the price that we receive when the fish are dried.
[Page 419]
16,495. Then, if the settlement were to take place at each landing
of the fish, in whatever way it was made, you think the men would
lose that advantage?-I don't say they would lose in all cases. In
some cases they would gain. We have often lost in buying fish in
that state, because the markets at the end of the season have fallen
so very heavily.
16,496. Would there be any objection, in your opinion, to bringing
the vessels employed in the Faroe trade under the regulations of
the Merchant Shipping Act applicable to foreign-going ships?-
There would be very great objection to that. It would ruin the
fishery altogether if there was the slightest restriction upon the
vessel sailing at any moment: a great part of a fishing voyage
might be lost. In my opinion, a delay of twenty-four hours has,
in many cases, hindered a crew of mine from gaining £100.
16,497. When a vessel comes in from her first Faroe voyage, how
long does she usually remain in harbour?-That depends very
much on the energy displayed by the men in getting the fish out
and getting on board their supplies of salt and other fishing
material requisite for the next voyage. I know vessels which have
taken a week, and I know other vessels which have been off again
in forty-eight hours. It cannot be done in less time than that.
16,498. I believe the vessels on their return don't always come
to Lerwick?-No; the most of them go to the west side,-to
Scalloway and the adjacent places in the islands.
16,499. So that it would be necessary to have a Custom House
officer in each of these places, if any such regulations were
adopted with regard to the Faroe smacks?-It would be necessary
to have a Custom House officer in at least eight different places in
Shetland.
16,500. Do you mean that there are eight places frequented by
these Faroe vessels where they are in the habit of landing their
cargoes?-There are eight places where the vessels go, no matter
at which place they land; but there are more than thirty or forty
different places in the islands at which they land their fish. I am
simply referring to the places where the owners of the vessels live,
and where the vessels go in order to receive stores and salt after
the fish have been landed.
16,501. Then the fish may be landed at a different place altogether
from where the vessel has afterwards to receive her stores and
salt?-Yes.
16,502. But they do go to one of these eight places invariably
before starting on their second voyage?-Yes.
16,503. What are these eight places?-Voe, Vaila Sound, Skeld
Voe, Reawick, Bixter, Tresta, Whiteness, Scalloway, and Lerwick.
16,504. Do you think it is advantageous for the fishcurer, as a
matter of business, to have a shop for the supply of his fishermen;
and do you think that a system of short payments or of cash
payments would be consistent with the fish-curer remaining
also the keeper of a shop?-I don't consider that it would be
advantageous for a fish-curer to have a shop where there was
sufficient competition to cause him to sell at the low rates of profit
which obtain in all places where there is a proper amount of
competition, because he undertakes a risk which otherwise he
would not do. He takes the risk of supplies to men who go to the
fishing, and who may come back without anything whatever.
Then, if he is not a landlord or tacksmaster, he knows perfectly
well that he has not power over these men to force them to serve
him for another year; and therefore I consider that if there was a
system of short payments, and if the fish-curer had no advances to
make to the men, he would be in a better position than at present,
if he is a man of capital, and was able to lie out of his money until
he could get the fish dried and prepared for market. There is no
doubt that fish-curers in Shetland would require to have more
capital than they do have if a system of short payments were
adopted, because they get credit, perhaps for months, for the goods
supplied to the fishermen; whereas if they had to pay cash they
would be placed in quite a different position.
16,505. Do they get longer credit on their purchases of goods than
merchants in any other parts of the country in consideration of
them having to make these advances to fishermen?-I don't say
that they get longer credits, but they get sufficient credit perhaps
to enable them to get forward so much of their fish. And even
suppose they wished a longer credit, they could, from the
creditor's knowledge that they had such fish in their possession,
obtain a renewal of their bills.
16,506. Are you aware that it is almost the invariable practice for
men employed by a fish-curer to take part of their supplies from
the shop of their employer?-That is the invariable practice.
16,507. Do you think the men in general have any option as to
whether they are to do so or not? I am not speaking of your own
business merely, but of the trade generally throughout Shetland?-
In the case of men who are in debt they have no option whatever,
because other parties would not supply them, knowing that they
are bound to deliver the proceeds of their fishing to the fish-curer
for whom they fish. But I must also say, that notwithstanding that
there are a great number of men who have plenty of money to pay
for their advances, whether it is from a knowledge that they can
obtain them at the same prices as they can from others, or from
carelessness to look after the matter, they generally take advances
to a small extent from the party for whom they are fishing.
16,508. You say that a man who is indebted has no option; but a
man who has no cash, although he may not be indebted, may be
equally without option, may he not, on the same grounds that you
have stated?-I should say that he has little option, unless he is a
man who is well known, and who has perhaps dealt with some
other shopkeeper or grocer previously, and paid him honestly.
16,509. Are you aware whether it is common for the fish-curer
to make advances in cash to fishermen during the course of the
season, with which they can go and purchase their goods where
they please?-I cannot say that, to my knowledge, money has been
advanced to fishermen during the course of the season in order that
they may purchase goods where they please. I don't think that any
of the fishermen coming to ask for money would tell the fish-curer
from whom they were asking it for what reason it was being
required, unless it was to help to pay rent, or to buy meal or some
other necessary article for the house.
16,510. Could he not get the meal at the shop of the fish-curer?-
In some cases he may not be able to do so.
16,511. You say that fishermen frequently prefer to take advances
from their employer although they may have money of their
own?-I don't say that they prefer to take it; but I know in my
own experience, that, without any solicitation on the part of our
firm, men who have plenty of money always do take advances to a
certain extent.
16,512. Do you suppose they do that in order to save them from
drawing their own money from the bank?-I believe that is the
case.
16,513. Has it come within your observation whether a practice
of hoarding exists to a great extent in Shetland among the
fishermen?-I believe it does.
16,514. Even among men who appear upon the books of the
merchant with whom they deal to be in his debt to some extent?-
I have known several cases of men who have allowed balances to
stand over against them year after year, when I knew perfectly well
that they had more than sufficient money in their possession to
have paid off the debt.
16,515. How do you account for that?-I account for it in this way,
that the system has obtained so long of fishermen requiring
advances, or rather taking advances, that they cannot see or do not
understand, why they should take their own money in order to buy
the necessary supplies before they proceed to the fishing. I have
no doubt that they have also this idea, that the fish-curer takes a
sufficient profit upon the goods supplied, and they consider they
have a right to keep [Page 420] their money and not to pay for
them until the end of the season.
16,516. Have you or your firm had any connection with the agency
for Greenland ships?-None whatever. The only Greenland vessel
we ever had any connection with was a Dutch vessel, sent out by
an Amsterdam company last year, for the prosecution of the finner
whale fishing at Iceland.
16,517. Is there any additional observation you have to make?-
The only other observation I have to make is with regard to the
evidence given by Mr. Walker at Edinburgh last year relative to
the payments to fishermen and their earnings. As the answers
which have been given by my firm in the circular sent in to you,
refer at least to one of the smallest years with respect to the men's
earnings, I should like to make a statement with regard to the gross
earnings, and the sums paid at settlement to the fishermen in the
previous year, that is, in 1870. For 81 men and boys employed by
us that year, after all the supplies which they had received during
the season had been paid by them out of their earnings the average
payment to each was £23, 15s., and in many cases those who had
the greatest earnings did not take up more than one tenth part of
them in supplies during the course of the season. Those men who
were free men, and who were not bound to fish in any direction
except where they wished, were the men who took up the least
advances. I now exhibit a statement for the year 1870, proving
what I have stated. It refers to six vessels. The gross earnings
of the 81 men and boys in that year were £3022, 18s.; the total
amount paid in cash was £1923, 0s. 3d., or an average of £23, 15s.
16,518. You mentioned that certain men left your father's island
after having cleared off their debt: where did they go?-They went
to various other places; they entered chiefly into the Faroe fishing.
16,519. Did any of them return to fish for tacksmen, and deliver
their fish green as they had done formerly?-None of them.
16,520. Is it not the case that some of them went to Burra and
resumed fishing, and delivered their fish green to the tacksmen
there?-The father of the family went to Burra.
16,521. Did you refer to one family consisting of a father and
several sons?-Yes.
16,522. Did the father resume his old system of fishing Burra?-
Yes.
16,523. Why did he return to Burra?-Because the boys got
dissatisfied with the system under which they were fishing, and
the old man, of course, finding himself without the help of his
sons, could do nothing else than take a croft of land, and try to eke
out a living in the best way he could.
16,524. Then, although the men cleared off their debt in the way
you have described, by drying their own fish and selling them to
you in a dried state, the boys became dissatisfied with that system
of fishing?-They became dissatisfied with it, because it was not
sufficient to keep them.
16,525. Although it cleared off their debt?-No, they had not
cleared it off at the time they left. They cleared it off in
consequence of going to the Faroe fishing or elsewhere.
16,526. Then the system of fishing that you refer to, and curing
their own fish, did not enable them to clear off their debt?-It did
not; but they might never have been in debt if they had been more
economical.
16,527. But you referred to that change in their mode of fishing, as
showing the effect produced by the difference in the green price
and the dry price for fish?-Yes; and if they had remained long
enough, I have no doubt they might have cleared off their debt as
well as others.
16,528. Then you think they did earn more under that system than
under the other system?-Yes.
Lerwick, February 6, 1872, WILLIAM ROBERTSON, examined.
16,529. Are you in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co. in
Lerwick?-I am.
16,530. I believe you desire to give some further evidence on their
behalf, with regard to the mode of dealing with men engaged for
the seal and whale fishing?-Yes.
16,531. You have prepared a written statement, which you wish to
give in as part of your evidence?-Yes.
[The witness put in the following statement:-]
'I am in the employment of Messrs. Hay & Co., and have been for
upwards of 28 years, during which time I have had the chief
management of their ship-agency business, and particularly
as to that part of it connected with the whale ships. It was my part
to bring the men and the masters together, and attend to the
engagement of the crews. The masters invariably chose the men
themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard
whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my
employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. The
masters generally selected first those men who had been with him
the previous voyage and that pleased him, and it was no
uncommon thing for men to go with the same master for many
years. When the men were engaged they always had the option of
getting their first month's advance in cash, even before the recent
regulations of the Board of Trade; and if they wished it, they also
got allotment notes, but they seldom took the latter. In the cases
where they did not take all their first month's advance in cash, it
was when they required a much larger advance in the shape of
warm clothing than the advance could obtain for them. Men going
to Greenland require various articles that are not wanted by home
fishermen, and which have to be prepared for them specially.
Previous to the year 1867 a large proportion of the crews shipped
here were young lads from 16 years old and upwards, and the
wages from 15s. to 25s. per month. A month's advance could
go but a small way in procuring the clothing necessary for such
a voyage, and an allotment note could not help them, because
sealing voyages were generally short, seldom exceeding two
months. The agents had therefore to trust to their getting
oil-money and to their honesty in repaying the second year what
they could not pay the first. Without such assistance these young
men could not go to Greenland; and the consequence of the recent
regulations of the Board of Trade having been to prevent them
getting the necessary clothing, few of them are now shipped. Of
the four crews, consisting of 97 men, shipped by us in 1871, only
three lads were under 19 years of age; while in 1866, of the four
crews of 67 men, 19 were under that age. Before 1867 I was able
to do the greater part of the work of engaging and settling with the
crews myself, but since then I have had to be assisted by one or
more of the other clerks in the establishment. My employers, that
year, foreseeing the extra trouble that would arise from the new
regulations, and that the ship agency would interfere with their
ordinary business, arranged with the other agents to insist on
getting a higher rate of commission, add intimated to the owners
for whom they acted, that they would in future charge 5 per cent.
instead of 21/2. They were induced to depart from this, because the
agreement was not adhered to by some of the other agents; but
they have continued in the trade with much reluctance, and chiefly
at my instigation, and from friendly feelings for certain of the
masters, for whose fathers and grandfathers even the firm had
acted. In 1867, and since then, the men have always got their first
month's advance in cash at the Shipping Office; they have also
been paid in cash the balance owing to them at the end of the
voyage whenever they chose to ask it, irrespective of any advances
that had been made to them for clothing; but, as a rule they always
came promptly and voluntarily to pay their accounts when so
settled, and I am not aware of any case where they required to be
compelled to do so. The men are very seldom in debt, and we do
our [Page 421] utmost to prevent their being so instead of
encouraging it, as has been stated in a report made to the Board
of Trade. Whenever the ships came to Lerwick on their return
voyage, we always endeavoured to get the men to wait and be
discharged in a body, but even then could not always effect it; and
when they were landed at other parts of the islands we found it
quite impossible. It is not true, so far as Hay & Co. are concerned,
that they ever took means to prevent the masters coming to
discharge their men at Lerwick. On rare occasions, when the ships
have come in, and the masters have been anxious to get away
again without waiting to attend at the Shipping Office, I may have
written at their request a letter of excuse to the shipping master,
but certainly never advised them to go away. It is quite true that
when I have paid off men before the shipping master, who had
accounts to settle, I have told them to go down to the office and I
would follow. Once or twice men have offered to pay me at the
Shipping Office, and particularly on one occasion when a man had
a trifle to pay he offered it there, which seemed greatly to offend
the shipping master, who appeared to dislike the trouble of having
to take the men separately. I have been told that a larger
proportion of advances in clothing is made to the Peterhead men
than to our people, and that such is charged in the masters'
accounts there, although not permitted here.'
16,532. You say in that statement, 'The masters invariably chose
the men themselves and fixed their wages, and without any regard
whatever as to whether the men had any connection with my
employers or not, or might happen to be indebted to them. In
point of fact, were the men engaged by the masters not generally
indebted to the agent?-The masters knew nothing about that.
16,533. But were they not so in point of fact?-They were not, in
most cases.
16,534. Had they not arranged in most cases, before going on
board the ship or going before the master, to take part of their
outfit from your firm?-No; they came and asked that after they
had been engaged.
16,535. Did they not purchase their outfit until they had been
engaged?-No.
16,536. Had you many cases of men who were engaged by masters
through you purchasing their outfit from other shops?-I cannot
say. Sometimes I believe that was the case; but of course I could
not know what they did in other shops.
16,537. Did all of them come to your shop for part of their outfit
at least?-Generally for part of it; but I have seen men who had
nothing from our shop except what are called mess things-things
which the men have to provide jointly.
16,538. I understand you collect the men and take them before the
captains?-Yes.
16,539. Do you make any selection of them before doing so?-No;
the captain selects his own men. If the men are strange to the
captain, he may ask me if I could find a good man for him, and I
may do so, and have done it; but that is the only kind of selection
have made.
16,540. But before the men are taken before the captain at all, is
there no negotiation on your part as to the men who are to go?-
No. If the man has gone in a ship before, he will come and tell me
that he wants to go again in that particular ship.
16,541. Do you present a list of the men to the master?-The
master generally has a list of his last year's hands, and if he likes
them he will take them again, or any part of them he chooses; and
if any of them are not suitable for him, he selects the rest from the
other men who come forward.
16,542. But do the men that the master selects all come up before
him without any list of their names being made beforehand?-He
generally has a list of his former crew there to look at.
16,543. Is there any list of the other men besides those of his
former crew?-No.
16,544. Are the names of the men wanting engagements not
entered in your books?-No.
16,545. Do you not keep a list of the men who come to you asking
to be engaged?-We never do that. The men are always there, and
I just tell them to be at the place when the master comes, and then
he takes his own men.
16,546. But if a man comes in from the country or applies to you
for an engagement before the vessel arrives, would you not take a
note of that?-No. I merely tell him to be there at the time, and
see if there vacant berth that will suit him.
16,547. Do you go up with him before the master?-He goes along
with the rest.
16,548. Do you, as acting for Messrs. Hay, ever refuse the
application of any man who comes wanting Perth?-We cannot
do so, because we always leave that to the master, who can take
any man he chooses.
16,549. Do you ever refuse to suggest a man to the master, or to
bring him before the master?-I never refused to do that, unless
he was a useless man that I knew was of no use.
16,550. Then you have refused to suggest a man in such a case?-
Yes; if a man was not a good hand, or the like of that, I would tell
the master so, and then he could take him or not as he chose.
16,551. But have you ever said to a man when he came applying
for a berth, 'I cannot take you,' or 'I won't take you, before the
captain?'-Not to my recollection.
16,552. Then a man might as well go to the master at once as
apply through you for an engagement?-The master comes to
the place to select his own men, and some of them go on board
and apply to him themselves.
16,553. If you make no selection at all beforehand, is there any use
for them applying to an agent? Might the men not go to the master
at once and be selected by him, without your intervention at all?-
They might; but the master wants an agent to assist him in
collecting his men.
16,554. What assistance does the agent give him?-He helps him
in engaging them. For instance, the articles are all filled up by
the agent, except the names, before going to the Custom House,
so as to facilitate business there. Perhaps there may be a number
of ships lying here at one time, and there are a number of
arrangements to be made. The agent carries through all that,
and the master has merely to attend at the Custom House and
see the thing completed.
16,555. That is to say, you give the master certain assistance after
he has selected the men?-After he has selected the men we take
down their names, their places of birth, and so on, and enter them
in the articles.
16,556. But before he selects the men the agent has done
nothing?-No further than that if a man comes wanting an
engagement, the agent will tell him that the master will be on
shore at a certain time, and the men are told to be there.
16,557. Is that the statement which is invariably made the men
applying for berths to you, without exception?-Yes, invariably;
except it is a man that I know is of no use and then I may tell him
that I can say nothing for him.
16,558. How many men out of 100 applicants might you say that
to?-Not many. I never turn any away if the man chooses to go
and take his chance; but if I know that the man is not a suitable
hand, I tell him that he cannot expect me to recommend him. But
there are very few men of that kind.
16,559. Do you remember any cases in 1871 in which you
intimated to the men that they were of no use, and that they
would not get a berth?-I don't recollect any.
16,560. Do you remember any particular cases of that kind in the
year previous?-I do not recollect any.
16,561. Have you ever intimated to any man who was owing you
an account that he was of no use, and would not get a berth?-No,
not to my knowledge.
16,562. In what way do you know that a man is of [Page 422] no
use?-By being told by masters that he was of no use.
16,563. Have you a general knowledge of the men's abilities from
their reputation?-Yes, from what I hear from the sailors who
have gone in the same ship; or if the master has found them not to
be suitable hands, he tells me not to send them to him again. But
there are very few instances of that kind; perhaps not one out of
100 or 200.
16,564. Was that the mode of selecting the men which was in use
five or six years ago?-They were all selected in the same way by
the master; he was always present.
16,565. But had not the agents more power in selecting the men
some time ago than they have exercised lately?-Not so far as we
were concerned. I cannot speak for others.
16,566. When a man went to another agent for employment, being
in debt to Hay & Co., was it usual for that agent to enter the men's
debt to you in his books, in order to obtain a settlement of it for
you?-Not lately; but sometimes it has been done.
16,567. Was it done on the application of Messrs. Hay?-Yes.
16,568. Does the captain apply to you for some opinion as to the
qualifications of the men?-Yes, if he does not know them
himself.
16,569. You have told me that you have generally made yourself
pretty well acquainted with the men's abilities?-Yes.
16,570. Then I suppose only a certain proportion of each crew
shipped at Lerwick consists of men who have been in that
captain's employment previously, perhaps one third?-Sometimes
they had almost all been in the same ship before, but they changed
agents occasionally. Perhaps sometimes one half of them might
re-ship.
16,571. But very often the captain would secure one half or one
third of new hands?-Yes.
16,572. In that case you must be consulted a good deal about the
qualifications of the men?-Yes. I tell the master about them, so
far as I know; and in some cases, perhaps if he ships a man, that
man may be able to recommend another to him.
16,573. But I suppose the captain attaches considerable weight to
your recommendation?-Perhaps he does.
16,574. Have you any reason to doubt that he does?-I have not. I
would not recommend a man if I did not know him to be a good
hand.
16,575. Has a captain ever refused to follow your recommendation
and to take a man whom you had recommended?-When he had
plenty of men of his own, of course he would take no others than
them.
16,576. But when he was in want of men, did he generally follow
your recommendation?-Sometimes I have seen him in doubt
between two or three men whom I have recommended, and he
selected any one of the three that he liked himself.
16,577. If you recommended one man in preference to another,
have you ever seen him take a man of whom you disapproved?-
In some instances I have seen him take a man who had been
recommended to him by another that he had engaged, instead of
a man that I could recommend. The man had sailed with him
before, and he recommended another man with whom he was
acquainted, and the captain engaged him.
16,578. In that case he might suppose that the shipmate had a
more intimate knowledge of the man's abilities than you could
have from hearsay?-That is very likely.
16,579. But if there were no such influences as that, have you ever
known the captain refusing to follow your recommendation?-No.
If he asked me for good man, and I could bring him one and did it,
he took him.
16,580. Has any captain complained that you, or those acting for
Messrs. Hay & Co., had suggested men who were not preferable
on account of their abilities, but who were owing accounts, or
were likely to incur accounts to Messrs. Hay?-It is very seldom
that I had the chance of recommending men who were in debt to
us. I never studied that in recommending a man to a master.
16,581. Was that because you had so few accounts with the
men?-We generally had accounts with them all when they
went out but there were a few that we had no accounts with.
16,582. Have you any doubt that the men were under the
impression or had an understanding that they ought to get their
supplies and their outfit, to a certain extent at least, from the
agent who engaged them?-They expect that the agent will
supply them.
16,583. But does the agent expect that they will give him their
custom?-There is no force in that case.
16,584. I am not saying there is force, but does the agent expect
that?-We must provide for it, whether they want it or not.
16,585. What must you provide?-We must provide clothing for
the men in case they want it.
16,586. But does the agent expect that the men whom he engages
for the Greenland whale fishing will come to him for their outfit,
or part of it?-Yes, because they had generally done so; but they
have never been forced to do so.
16,587. I am not saying that they are forced, but does the agent
expect that?-Of course he does, and he is prepared for it.
16,588. Do the men know that he expects that?-I daresay they do.
16,589. Was not that the principal consideration in inducing the
agents to undertake to carry on the agency?-I cannot say what it
was in former times, because there was an agency in the house
before my time, and I came into it after it was established.
16,590. But is it not the case that you are giving up the business
because the 21/2 per cent. commission is an insufficient
remuneration for your trouble?-Yes, it is insufficient for
the trouble we have; and I daresay if it had not been for the
circumstance that the present masters are sons and. grandsons
to masters who had been coming to the house long ago, we would
have given it up sooner.
16,591. Have accounts for outfit and supplies for men employed in
the Greenland fishing become less in recent years than they were
ten or a dozen years ago?-I daresay in some cases they have.
16,592. Is it not the case that they have done so upon the whole?-
Yes, because there are not so many green hands taken now as there
were then.
16,593. You have found it necessary to restrict your credits to
them?-On the short voyages we have. A voyage of two months
is not like one of five or six months.
16,594. You have therefore lost part of the profit which formerly
accrued upon these agencies?-Of course if the outfits are less, the
profits must be less.
16,595. Is that the reason why you have found it necessary to give
up the business?-That is not the reason. It is because of the
trouble we had with them. I believe we have perhaps sold as much
to the men this year as we did when we had the agency.
16,596. Even when you had a great number of green hands?-
There are not many green hands going now, because the outfits
cannot be given to them. That has been the experience of the last
few years.
16,597. But, apart from green hands, is not the amount of out-takes
by these men less than it was ten or fifteen years ago?-With some
men it is as much, and with others far less.
16,598. Do you think that upon the whole it is less?-I have not
looked into that, and I could not be sure about it.
16,599. Have you any general impression about that matter?-
When there were some green hands going of course they required
a larger outfit than they require now.
16,600. I am putting the green hands out of view altogether; I am
referring to the able seamen. Do you think that their accounts
altogether are not less than they were formerly?-In some cases
they are.
16,601. Are they not less upon the average?-I daresay [Page 423]
they are, because men do not require so much now as they used to.
16,602. Is it not the case that you have been less willing to make
large advances to any class of seamen since the regulations of the
Board of Trade in 1867 or 1868?-We would give some men what
they required, and to others we would not.
16,603. Do you mean that to men you knew you would give what
they required?-Yes, but to strangers we would not.
16,604. Is that because your security in the case of strangers is
much less than it was formerly?-Yes.
16,605. Is not that one reason why you are giving it up?-No.
The chief reason is that the commission is small, and the trouble
is great. We cannot get all the men together at one time for
settlement, or else it would be soon done.
16,606. But if you had the same returns from the men's accounts
which you had formerly, would not that be sufficient remuneration
for your trouble?-It would not.
16,607. Would you require larger accounts now than you had
before, even at the most flourishing time?-No, not larger
accounts; but we would require a better commission.
16,608. But larger accounts would serve the same purpose, would
they not?-I don't know. We have so much trouble in bringing the
men together and getting them settled, that the commission is not
sufficient for it, and in fact our people wished to give it up in
1867.
16,609. In what respects is the trouble greater than it formerly
was?-Because the men don't come together, and we have
perhaps to go up with one and then with another, until we get
the whole crew discharged.
16,610. Do you mean that formerly you settled at your own
office?-Yes. We did so before the Board of Trade regulations
were adopted, and we could take the men at any hour in the day
and settle their counts with them; but when we have to go to the
Custom House, we can only do that in the Custom House hours,
and that entails a great deal of extra time and trouble.
16,611. I suppose that in the case of each ship that may involve a
dozen visits to the Custom House?-Possibly it may; sometimes
more and sometimes less. We try to get as many of the men
forward as possible when the ship arrives, if she comes to Lerwick.
16,612. Will each of these visits to the Custom House occupy an
hour?-I would not say that it would occupy an hour.
16,613. Could you do it in half an hour?-Possibly we might.
16,614. You would not have more than twenty visits to the Custom
House in the case of any ship?-I could not say the number. I
have known sometimes that we had to go to the Custom House
with one man, and when we came down to the office we found
another man ready, and we had just to return again.
16,615. You say in your statement that you are not aware of any
case where the men required to be compelled to come forward and
pay their accounts?-No. They have always come forward after
coming from the Custom House and paid their accounts.
16,616. I suppose the men understand that they are expected to pay
their accounts at that time?-Yes, when they get their money.
16,617. Is that the understanding upon which the advances are
made to them?-Yes, they know that.
16,618. What would be the consequence if they did not pay at that
time?-We would just have to take steps to get payment; that
would be the only consequence.
16,619. If a man declined to pay at that particular time, would you
have any objection to get him a berth next year?-We could not
refuse him, if the master chose to take him.
16,620. But would you help a man to get a berth if he was in debt
for the previous year?-I would not care much for that,
16,621. Could you not prevent him from getting access to the
captain along with the other men?-No. The place is open for
any one to come in, and I could not prevent him.
16,622. But he would have to apply directly to the captain?-Yes,
he would have to apply to the captain for a berth; but they all do
that.
16,623. But I understand the captain only takes the men who are
secured by you?-No; I never said that. The men come to the
place themselves, and they know the place as well as we do,
because it is always crowded with men, and the captain chooses
from among them, what men he wants.
16,624. Are there usually more men than berths?-Yes.
16,625. And I believe there is often a great crush to get into the
presence of the captain?-Yes, generally.
16,626. Do you tell me that a man who is in discredit with you,
and who has not your good word, or rather who is in your black
books, has any chance of getting a berth from a captain?-We
never had any experience of such a case, because the men have
always paid their accounts.
16,627. Don't you think they have done that under the
apprehension that they would not get a berth in the following
year, if they did not do so?-I don't know that.
16,628. Might not that be a reasonable explanation of the
punctuality with which they come down from the Custom
House and pay their accounts?-It might be, but I cannot say.
They never expressed anything of that kind to me and I have no
reason for thinking so. The men whom we trust are honest men,
and we knew they would pay their accounts. If we thought they
were not honest men, who would come down and pay their
accounts, we would not advance them.
16,629. Would you not give them advances in goods?-No. We
always give them the first month's advance in cash.
16,630. But you would not advance them goods if you thought
they would not come direct from the Custom House and pay their
accounts?-No, not unless they came on their return.
16,631. Have you any doubt that if the master of the ship and the
agent concurred in telling the men to go up to the Custom House at
once, and have their accounts settled, the men would attend to that
direction?-I have done that myself. I have asked the men on
board ship before they left it to remain in town until they were
discharged at the Custom House, and I could not get them to do so.
16,632. If you told them that you would decline to pay them
afterwards, would they not do so?-They knew we could not do
that. I remember once making the remark to the shipping master
that the law should be imperative upon the men as well as upon
the master or agent; and unless that is done I believe the system
will never be other than it is.
16,633. When did you tell the men to remain in town until they
were discharged?-I have done that several times in late years.
16,634. Did you fix a day when they were to attend?-They know
that they should do so within twenty-four hours. For instance if
they landed today, we would settle with them tomorrow.
16,635. Would you have any difficulty in doing that?-None.
16,636. Have you ever had any conversation with the men when
engaging them with regard to the outfit or supplies they wanted?-
Yes. I have had such conversations with them in the shop after
they were engaged. They generally go to the country after they are
engaged and come back again; there is a certain time allowed to
them.
16,637. Had you ever any such conversations with them before
they were engaged?-Not about supplies.
16,638. Or about outfit?-No. We don't know what they want
until after they are engaged.
16,639. Have you not asked them what they wanted, in order to
know?-No. I suppose they can hardly tell themselves until after
they begin to inquire.
16,640. But have you never had any conversation with them [Page
424] on the subject before engaging them?-We don't know
whether they would be engaged or not until after the engagement
was made.
16,641. Have you never had any conversation about what they
might want in the event of their being engaged?-I don't recollect
doing anything of that kind. It is generally afterwards that any
conversation takes place about supplies.
16,642. I suppose, as a matter of course, there is some
conversation about that after the men are engaged: they always
want something?-When they come to town again before they
sail they must have some warm clothing, because men going in
that employment require warmer clothing than in any other
climate.
16,643. How long is it after the men are engaged before they come
back?-They may come back next day, or two days afterwards, or
any time the minister fixes for sailing.
16,644. Does the vessel usually lie in Lerwick for some days?-I
have sometimes seen her sail on the following day, or sometimes
two or three days afterwards. The master fixes the time when the
men have to be on board, and they must all be in Lerwick, able to
go on board the same day.
16,645. So that in that case there is not much time to arrange about
outfit or supplies?-No; I have known men engaged on one day,
and go to sea the next.
16,646. Did you give any allotment notes?-We always paid them
in cash at the Shipping Office.
16,647. Did you generally give such notes?-Yes, on long
voyages, but on sealing voyages we did not.
16,648. Were these notes taken in name of the man's relations?-
Yes; of his wife, or father, or sister, or brother.
16,649. Were they not sometimes taken in the name of the agent
who was giving them supplies?-No; they were addressed to the
agent, to be paid by him.
16,650. But were they not also taken in the name of the agent or of
some of his clerks?-Not that I am aware of.
16,651. Was that never done by Hay & Co.?-Not to my
recollection.
16,652. Would you be surprised to learn that it had been done in
other houses in Lerwick?-It may have been done, but I cannot
tell.
16,653. In the conversations you have with the men about their
outfit or supplies, is it not usual to suggest what they should take,
and where they should get it?-No. We ask them what they want;
but sometimes, if it is a man we are doubtful about, we refuse to
give him all that he asks.
16,654. But if it is a man you are not doubtful about, do you
always ask him what he wants?-We have done that, but he
knows what he wants without being asked, and he takes what is
necessary.
16,655. Is there any other person here who wishes to make any
further statement, or to tender additional evidence?-[No answer.]
Then I adjourn the sittings in this place.
<Adjourned>.
KIRKWALL; THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 1872
THOMAS WILSON, examined.
16,656. I am a weaver in Kirkwall. I was born in Fair Isle, and I
lived there till two years and nine months ago. There are between
thirty and forty families in Fair Island. They live chiefly by fishing
for cod, ling, and saith. They fish chiefly in summer. They have
always had to sell their fish to the proprietor, that being a
condition of their holding their farms. Their farms are from four
to six acres in extent, with a right to the scattald. I believe since I
left, they are not allowed to pasture their cattle on the scattald
without paying for it. The island belonged, when I first remember,
to Mr. Stewart of Brough, in Orkney, whose tacksmen were first
Mr. William Strachan, Dundee, and afterwards John Hewison,
Westray. Mr. Bruce bought the island about 1864. I remember for
about fifteen or twenty years before 1864. I am thirty-five years of
age. The people had to sell all their fish to Mr. Strachan and Mr.
Hewison. They were told so by them. It was always the custom to
sell their fish to the tacksman, who also kept a shop for the sale of
goods. There was always a shop, but sometimes no goods were in
it. I have seen it without meal for more than ten days, and then the
people had no resource but fish, or milk, or anything they could
get. That happened in summer. In winter the people always had a
supply of meal of their own. There are three or four water-mills
on the island, where the people grind their own meal. They are the
old-fashioned little mills usual in Shetland. When Mr. Bruce got
the property, the meal and goods generally became dearer than
they were before. I don't think we have ever wanted meal
altogether since he bought the island. We have had to send to
Sumburgh for it, but have generally got a supply before our meal
was quite done. Sometimes, however, it has been very scarce.
When Strachan and Hewison had the island, any one might come
to the island to trade; and sometimes James Rendall, of Westray,
and sometimes James Smith, Cunningsburgh, came with boats
bringing goods and meal. They sold about the same rates as
Hewison and Strachan. The reason why we ran short was, that we
could not got notice sent. The steamer did not use to stop for us
then, but now we get her to stop for a letter. We have had to sell
the fish to Mr. John Bruce, jun. and to him only, since Mr. Stewart
sold the island. The price of fish has been fixed by the man who
comes to settle, which is in June or July. That settlement is for the
previous year, up to the 1st of May immediately preceding. I have
seen them miss a year. I have been told that Mr. Bruce has missed
a year since I came to Kirkwall. There are very few pass-books.
The accounts are all read over to us. We couldn't always
remember everything we had got. I suppose we had just to take it
as it was. The factor on the island read over the accounts, and he
handed a note of the total to Mr. Bruce and Mr. Irvine, who came
to settle with us. We got cash if there was a balance in our favour,
but never in the course of the season. We never asked for money
during the season; it was no use to ask for it, for we would not get
it. I don't remember if any one ever asked for it. We could
sometimes buy from Rendall, who is the only person that has come
to trade there since Mr. Bruce bought the island. Since Mr. Bruce
came, he has not had liberty to trade; and he erected a stage on the
seashore, and people bought from him there. Formerly he and
Smith carried on their trade in the house where they lodged. I
suppose Mr. Bruce had forbidden that; at least all the people
understood so. They used to lodge with Mrs. Thomas Wilson, near
the shore. Rendall's prices were always a good deal lower than
the prices at the shop. Their tea and sugar were cheaper. Mr.
Bruce has tea at 11d., and I remember once at 15d. a quarter;
Rendall's was 10d. or 11d. sometimes, I think, as low as 9d. There
was not very much difference in the tea. Rendall always had sugar
at 6d., common grey sugar; Mr. Bruce's was regularly 7d. I
remember [Page 425] Mr Bruce once had loaf sugar at 1d. per oz.,
or 14d. a lb., about 1867. I don't remember his having loaf sugar
in the shop at all at any other time. Rendall's sugar, I think, was
9d. Cottons were bought cheaper from Rendall. His were 10d or
11d., blue and white shirting: Mr Bruce's 1s., or once 16d. The
prices did not vary much at Mr Bruce's store from year to year. I
remember quite well the price of oatmeal in Fair Isle during my
last year there. I paid 30s. a boll. I sometimes got the price when I
got it, sometimes only when I settled. I think I knew the price that
year only when I settled. The account was sent to me that year
after I had left, and 17s. of balance due to me was remitted. I
know meal was that year 23s. or 24s. a boll in Kirkwall. Mr
Alexander Gibson, merchant, told me so as I came down here. I
have the account which was sent to me, in which the total amount
of the shop account is entered to my debit (£9, 13s. 4d.). The entry
'By amount from the 'Lessing' account, £6, 17s. 9d.,' which is put
to my credit, means payment for lodging to workmen, and for
work done by myself at the wreck of the 'Lessing' on Fair Isle.
The owners or insurers, I suppose, were the employers of the men
who worked at the wreck; but the money came through Mr Bruce.
'By cash, left as a deposit, 11th May 1868, £3,' was money I was
fool enough to leave in Mr Bruce's hands at previous settlement at
his request. I left it in his hands as my banker. I can't remember
buying meal from Rendall on any particular occasion that I could
specify. But I know I have bought it from him cheaper than I
could get it at the shop. I got it from Rendall at 26s., and I am
quite sure, that during the 4 or 5 years I was on the island under
Mr Bruce, I never got meal at the store for less than 30s. I
remember his (Rendall's) selling goods at night; but that was for
his own purposes:-to get his away as soon as he could. I think I
have heard of him selling goods at night one time when Mr Bruce
and Mr Irvine were there, when they were asleep, but I can't give
any distinct statement about that. In 1868, James Williamson,
Kirkwall had men working at the wreck of the 'Lessing,' which he
had bought. His meal was cheaper than that at the store. I had to
buy some of Williamson's as there was then none at the store.
That was in July. I was employed by Mr. Wilson, the factor, in
quarrying for a store Mr. Bruce was building. That was settled in
the account at the end of the year. All work was so settled I have
already shown. It is the entry 'By work with P. M'Gregor, at 1s a
day, 13s 7d.'
Six families left Fair Isle, and came to Kirkwall in 1869. We all
left because meal was so dear, and wages were so low. They all
left of their own accord. I am sure they all left of their own
accord, and were not warned away by the landlord. About
100 people left, in my remembrance, for America in 1862.
Government helped them. There had been a great scarcity before
that. In general, there is always a scarcity some part of the year.
They live mostly on tea, and porridge, and oatmeal cakes. In
summer there is a little flour sometimes. They get plenty of fish
generally in winter, chiefly by fishing from the rocks. [Being
asked if he had anything more to say, depones:] Only about the
beach fee in the account already shown. I got only the £3 for the
whole half year I worked there. I wrought 22 weeks and a half,
and I was to get 5s. a week; but he said because I left the work to
work at the 'Lessing' I should get no more. I wrote about it to Mr.
Bruce, who wanted a detailed account of my work, which I gave
him; but I got no definite answer. When Williamson was working
at the 'Lessing,' he was not allowed by the laird to employ men
Fair Isle. The landlord or his factor said they would be put out if
they worked to him. I was forbidden to work to him myself. Mr.
Wilson and Mr. Irvine both forbade me to work to him. I was told
I would have to leave the island if I did. I was intending to go, and
did go, and am glad I goed [sic]. I have been far better off since I
left. I have had better wages, better food, and less work since.
The other people from Fair Isle who are here, would say the same,
I believe. I think Fair Isle people would be better off, if they had
liberty to buy and sell with any person they choose.
Kirkwall, February 8, 1872, MARY DUNCAN or QUIN, examined.
16,657. I live in Kirkwall. I was born in Lerwick, and lived there
till 7 years ago. I have knitted for 20 years all sorts of articles of
hosiery. I knitted both with my own wool, and for the merchants.
I was always paid in goods. I never got a penny in money. I was
not much in need of it. I often earned 9s. or 10s. in a week when
veils were dear; but generally less than that. I knew many women
who depended entirely on knitting for a living; and they had to
take the goods and sell them for half-price, to any one who was
requiring them. It was sometimes not easy to find people who
would buy. They had just to ask among their friends if there was
any one who wanted the things they had. I know James Coutts,
provision merchant, used to take the goods from knitters. I knew
many people who gave them to him for tea and sugar, and
sometimes meal. I have been in his shop when such transactions
were carried on. I don't know if Robert Irvine dealt in that way. I
know Betty Morrison. I know that knitters disposed of their goods
to her. I have seen her come to my mother's house with tea and
sugar for sale. I knew they were from parties who had been
knitters to Mr. Linklater and other merchants. She told us who the
tea was from, so that we knew quite well it had been got from
some one who had been knitting. Sometimes, too, she would tell
who it belonged to. We always got it cheaper than it had been sold
in the shop. It was always dearer in these shops than in others,
sometimes 15d. a quarter, and we got it from Betty Morrison for
10d. That was very common. Jean Yates, and dozens of others,
hawked about goods got from knitters in the same way. I had to
buy a great deal more dress than I needed, because I could get
nothing else for it. Knitters have all plenty of clothes. Some of
them I know have far more clothes than food. I always sell my
knitting for money here.
[Shown veil got from Grace Slater, February 5.] I would get
2s. 6d. in goods for that, when knitted with my own wool. Seven
years ago, and 3 years ago, when I was home, 1s. or 1s. 4d. in
goods, according to the market, would have been paid at Lerwick
to one who knitted such a veil with merchant's wool.
[Shown veil from E. Malcomson, February 5.] I would get 1s.
6d. for the veil, wool and all, here.
Kirkwall, February 8, 1872, THOMAS PEACE, examined.
16,658. I am a partner of the firm of Peace & Love, drapers,
Kirkwall. I deal considerably in Shetland hosiery, mostly bought
in Shetland. I get most from merchants, and a little from private
parties, knitters, who meet me at Lerwick. I go there annually. I
pay both in cash. I don't get any cheaper, or very little cheaper,
from the knitters than from the merchants. I have bought as cheap
from the shops as I can buy from knitters. I have no means of
knowing whether merchants in Lerwick make any profit on the
hosiery. I have been told I was getting goods in the shops at the
same price they were bought in at. I never saw the goods bought
in. I found knitters in Lerwick eager to sell to me rather than to
the merchants there. They at first asked me 50 per cent. more than
I could buy the articles in the shops. I told them they were for
sale. I have had so much difficulty with them in fixing a price that
I now buy the most of my goods from the merchants.
I think a cash system would be much better for parties. I don't
think it would affect my business as a [Page 426] purchaser from
the wholesale dealers in Lerwick. I think it would be better for the
knitters if they got clear with the merchants. I think most of them
are in debt to the merchant's shops. Any system would be better
than running accounts from one year to another, and from the
beginning of one's life to the end.
<Adjourned>
KIRKWALL; FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 9 1872
Present-MR GUTHRIE.
LAURENCE WILSON, examined
16,659. I am a fisherman in Kirkwall. I was born and lived in Fair
Isle till April 1869. I left because three of us were working at the
'Lessing's' wreck, and we heard we were warned for working at it
contrary to the master's (Mr Bruce's) orders, and we left that we
might not be warned. There was nothing to do at the fishing at the
time worth waiting for, so I and they went to the work. I
considered I was under no obligation to fish for him if I could
better my circumstance any other way. I was only bound not to
fish for any other man than Mr Bruce;-not to fish to him while I
could get any other employment. The others who left, did not
leave for that reason, but just to better their circumstances. Prices
at Bruce's shop were higher than in Strachan's and Hewison's
time. Prices were very much raised at the time of the American
War, when Mr Bruce got the island. I think prices were higher in
Fair Isle than was necessary to cover the prices of carriage. I have
no pass-book, for no pass-books were called for or used there.
[Produces account for 1868, obtained from Mr Bruce] It was sent
to me after I left Fair Isle. 'By amount from boat's account, £4, 0s.
3d.;' that's the price of fish. 'By a quey, sold by auction at
Dunrossness cattle sale, 19s., less money and auction expenses, 5s.
6d.-13s. 6d.' We were not allowed to sell our cattle to any one
but Mr Bruce. The factor told us. I never attempted to sell cattle
to any one else; but no doubt others did. I left the island before the
time when Thomas Wilson wanted to sell his cow to Rendall for
£5, 10s. If that was so, I think I could have got more for my quey
than 19s., but never was offered more. Mr. Bruce did not settle for
the spring fishing when he came to Fair Isle in summer; but only
up to the end of the year. I bought some meal from James Rendall
in summer. It was cheaper than I got it at the same time from the
shop. I can't tell exactly the price paid to Rendall that year; but I
remember well enough that the shop price was 30s. a boll. I
bought from Rendall at 24s. in 1868, and Mr Bruce's price was
then 30s. Rendall was also cheaper than the shop in 1867. I got
from Rendall tea at 9d. and 10d., while the shop was 11d. and 13d.
I am not a very good judge of tea. Rendall's sugar was 6d.
(common soft), shop sugar of the same quality being 7d. Rendall's
loaf sugar was 8d. I have never bought that sugar at the shop; but I
heard factor tell others it was 13d. a pound. I had no particular
need of it at that price. There was no difference in the price of
coffee. Rendall's cottons were also cheaper, but I don't remember
the exact prices. I always keep my own account, and could check
the account as it was read over to me by the factor. When I lived
in the island I never got money till settlement, and never asked for
it, because it was usual. Before Mr Bruce's time we all went
sometimes to Orkney for meal, but not since, because he sent
supplies. That was partly because we did not need to go, and
partly because in Hewison's time we had leave to manufacture our
own oil, and we went to sell it, and brought back supplies. We
thought we had more of livers before than we got from Mr Bruce.
I don't remember getting meal from Mr Bruce for less than 30s.
When Mr Williamson was in the island I got some from him 3s. or
4s. a boll cheaper. Rendall was forbidden in Mr. Bruce's time to
sell his goods in Mrs. Wilson's house, and he began to sell them at
the shore. I think the men in Fair Isle would be better if they had
liberty to fish to whom they please. I think they would be better to
leave it altogether; for it is a very poor place, and they are subject
to many hardships. They remain because some of them are poor
and in arrears to the master, and have not means to get away. The
hardships are the want of a harbour for large boats: they never
have crews of more than three men or two, and two boys. They
are sometimes scarce of food in summer, and their boats are too
small for crossing often to Orkney or Shetland, though they do so
sometimes. It is often a great risk. Larger boats do come
sometimes in summer and anchor in a small harbour. They
sometimes haul them up; but a big boat can't stay there when
there's a weighty sea on, unless hauled up. I know we got 10s. a
ton less for fish than was paid at Grutness. It was only an account
brought by others that I was to be put away for working at the
'Lessing.' I told Wilson I was going away, and he said he got no
word from Mr. Bruce to that effect. After I prepared to go, Mr.
Bruce asked me to stay in the same farm. Rents were greatly
raised in Fair Isle,-I know that by a letter from the factor a short
time ago,-to the amount of £1 to £3 on each farm. Jerome
Wilson, the factor, is my uncle. Most people in the Fair Isle are
related to one another. Dr. Craig, now of Westray, Mr. Macfarlane
and Mr. Arthur have been clergymen in the Fair Isle in my time. I
think they always got their supplies from Lerwick. The women
sell their hosiery to Mr. Bruce, Mr. Warren, Kirkwall, and James
Rendall. All the wool is made up into cloth or hosiery before it
leaves the isle so far as I know.
Kirkwall, February 9, 1872, CHARLOTTE SUTHERLAND, examined.
16,660. I live in Kirkwall. I am a knitter. I was brought up in
Lerwick, and lived there till 1867 or the beginning of 1868. I then
went to Edinburgh, and have been here since May. I was in
Lerwick for three weeks in April. I lived with my father, and
knitted goods, mostly for the merchants, but sometimes with my
own worsted. I did not need to support myself entirely till my
father died in 1866. After that, I knitted to Miss Jessie Ogilvy for
money, and for the shops for goods. I never asked money from the
shops. I got enough money to keep myself from private people; at
least I had to be content with it. I had to leave Lerwick for that
reason. Knitting does very well in Lerwick for those that have
friends to live with and keep them, but not for me when I had to
look out for myself. I knew a great many in Lerwick who lived
entirely by knitting. I think they were paid almost entirely in
goods. I think a number just take the goods out of the shops and
sell them again to get their food, and money for rents. I have
heard plenty of them say so. I know it was so when I was back
lately. I could not say the names of any persons just now. Mary
Ann Moodie was one. I never saw any of them selling their goods.
Our people were often offered tea or soft goods by parties who
lived by selling such [Page 427] articles got from knitters. I knew
that because they told us so. When they sell shawls or veils they
get so much, and they take a line for the balance, and get what they
want till it's done, and sometimes more than they want, and sell it
in order to get provisions. The women selling such goods would
not name the one they got them from, but just that some one had
got it for work, and had to part with a portion of it. I remember
these women perfectly well. There was Betty Morrison and Jean
Yates, who were in that custom for many years. They surely did a
great deal in that way. They did not get the price put on the goods
in the shop. I know that, because these women offered us 10d. tea
for 6d. I did not take it, because I was always knitting and getting
it for ourselves. I never heard of women bartering their goods for
provisions in the provision shops. I never heard of them selling or
bartering their goods to Robert Irvine or James Coutts.
EDINBURGH: MONDAY, APRIL 8, 1872.
Present-MR GUTHRIE.
GEORGE SINCLAIR SUTHERLAND, examined.
16,661. This sitting was held for the purpose of examining Mr.
Methuen before he went to England, but I have received intimation
that he is forbidden by his medical adviser from undergoing any
examination on account of his health, and I understand you have
come here to speak, to some of the points on which I wished
information from him?-Yes; he asked me to attend for that
purpose.
16,662. You have been for some years in Mr. Methuen's
service?-Yes; for eight years.
16,663. In what capacity?-I had charge of looking over the
agreements and settling with fishermen for the first five or six
years; and I have since conducted the correspondence, and taken
the management of his business.
16,664. Have you had the principal management of his business
during his absence in consequence of ill health?-I have, during
the last twelve months.
16,665. Has Mr. Methuen the largest business as a fish-curer in
Scotland, both in curing herring and cod and ling?-Yes;
particularly in curing herring, and pretty extensively in the curing
of other kinds of fish.
16,666. You don't say that he has the largest business in curing
cod and ling?-No, I would not say that.
16,667. Has he stations on every part of the Scotch coast?-Yes,
all round the east and west coasts of Scotland; also in the north of
England, and at Yarmouth; and also at Howth in Ireland.
16,668. I believe that at one time Mr. Methuen carried on business
in Shetland?-Yes.
16,669. Where were his stations there?-They were near Lerwick,
at Cumlywick and Sandwick.
16,670. Are these places about ten miles from Lerwick, near
Sandlodge?-I understand so.
16,671. Do you know the reason why Mr. Methuen gave up
business in Shetland?-He gave up business there about six years
ago, in consequence of the proprietor, Mr. Bruce, taking over the
whole boats and crews into his own hands, in order to carry on the
business himself.
16,672. Have you been in Shetland?-I have not.
16,673. Had you any acquaintance from books or otherwise with
the way in which the business was conducted there?-I had very
little experience in the Shetland business at all.
16,674. Who settled with the men in Shetland?-It was our
managers there.
16,675. Are they in Mr. Methuen's service now?-They were not
regularly in his service. There was perhaps one man for one, and
another for another year; but the books are in Leith, and they were
always checked by one party there. The clerk who checked the
books in Leith is still in Mr. Methuen's service, and he could
speak with regard to the settlement with the Shetland crews.
16,676. Did he go down to Shetland for that purpose?-He did
not. He simply checked the books after they came here.
16,677. Had Mr Methuen a shop for supplying his men with goods
in Shetland?-I am not aware that he had.
16,678. I understand he does not keep shops for that purpose at
any of the stations?-No.
16,679. Has he any stations in outlying remote places?-In the
Hebrides he has.
16,680. In those places does he carry on business efficiently
without having any shop with which to supply his men?-Yes;
they can supply themselves with what they want.
16,681. Where are those stations?-They are scattered all round
the Hebrides: in the Lewis Island, and down in the Southern
Hebrides, in the islands of Barra, Castleby, Vattersay, and the
Uists.
16,682. Are the stations where the fish are delivered usually near
the houses of the fishermen, or have they to go some distance with
them?-The fishermen in the Southern Hebrides come round from
the east coast of Scotland and go to fish there, and they build
themselves huts in which they live while they are ashore. Our
coopers and women have houses or huts erected for them also on
which they live. They take out a supply of provisions with them,
which will perhaps last half the time.
16,683. Who do that?-The women and coopers; and they are
always getting provisions back and forward when they are at the
fishing; because, in point of fact, in the southmost part of the
island of Barra and Castleby and Boisdale, there are no shops at
all. There is only one public-house in Loch Boisdale, but there are
no shops of any kind there. In the southmost island, Vattersay, is
uninhabited, and the men take out provisions and everything they
want with them, and they fish there during the six weeks of the
fishing.
16,684. Where do they get their provisions?-They take them
with them from home, or they get them sent out to them from the
east coast.
16,685. Do they purchase them themselves?-Yes.
16,686. You have nothing to do with that?-No. In sending
coopers there we allow them extra wages-what are called board
wages-during the time they are there, being so much extra per
week for going to these places and supplying themselves.
16,687. Is that the universal practice in the Lewis fisheries with
all the other fish-curers?-It is. They have coopers to whom they
allow so much extra when they are at that fishing.
16,688. But do they follow the same practice with regard to their
fisheries?-The fishermen simply get the price per cran which is
agreed upon. They are not supplied with provisions at all.
16,689. Is it not the case that there are curers in the Lewis who
have shops in Stornoway and other places?-In Stornoway they
have shops.
16,690. Are these shops usually kept by the curers?-The curers
usually advance money to their fisheries; or if they are from home,
they give them a line to the merchant's shop with which they can
get any small provisions they require during the time they are out.
[Page 428]
16,691. But do the families of the resident fishermen get supplies
from the curers in Stornoway?-Yes; they usually give them a line
if they are in poor circumstances.
16,692. Have you any West Highland fishermen in your
employment in the Hebrides?-A good many. Last year we had
altogether about 270 boats both from the east and west coast,
fishing in the Hebrides, at the west coast fishing.
16,693. Did you find that the West Highland men and men resident
in the Hebrides were able to supply themselves with provisions in
the same way as the east coast men?-No. They are not the same
class at all, they are not in the same good circumstances as the east
coast men. We usually advance meal and money and materials
before they can go to the fishing at all.
16,694. Do you give supplies of meal?-Yes, we usually give
them some.
16,695. But I suppose that is merely for their own use during the
fishing?-Yes. There is a shop in Stornoway upon which we give
the men an order to get any meal they want; but, these men are of
the poorer class.
16,696. Have you had any difficulty in getting fishermen in
consequence of the necessity they are under for getting advances,
and the habit they have got into of receiving advances from the
curers in Stornoway?-No; I cannot say that there ever was a short
supply of fishermen. At some shops the fishermen had fallen
behind in a bad season, and required some advances before they
could commence another season, and in that case the merchants
have given them the advance they required, and the men fished for
them, as it were, without a stated agreement.
16,697. Is that the case everywhere, or are you speaking of a
particular locality?-I am speaking more particularly of the
northern and western coasts. The practice is quite different along
the Moray coast, where the men are in better circumstances, owing
to the fact that they have lately had a number of years of successful
fishings.
16,698. What is the kind of agreement which you usually make
with your fishermen in the Hebrides?-The fishermen who are in
independent circumstances agree to a stated price per cran, while
the fishermen who require advances usually agree to what is called
the current rates given to debted boats. That is usually is to 1s. to
2s. under the free crews; 1s. below has been the usual custom.
These have been the general terms of debted boats.
16,699. Is that exactly the same system as is followed at Wick?-
Yes; the same system prevails all round the north and west coasts.
16,700. Is there a large proportion of the men in the Lewis fishery
who fish upon the terms you have last mentioned?-In some years
there are more than others. Of course, if they had had a successful
season, there would be fewer of them fishing on these terms next
season.
16,701. Will there be one half of them, on the average, who
engage on these terms?-Yes; I should say there would be one
half of them on the west coast, but not on the east coast.
16,702. In speaking of these men, do you refer to men who are the
owners themselves of the vessels in which they fish? I understand
that the vessels generally are owned by one or two men, and that
the rest are hired men?-That is the case on the east coast, but it is
not so on the west. There they usually share and share alike, and
probably four or five men have a boat between them, becoming
jointly liable.
16,703. Then each man who has a share of a boat gets a share of
the fish which are taken by that boat?-That is usually the way.
The boat gets one share which goes to the skipper of the boat,
as they call him, and the rest of the men get equal shares. In the
herring fishing at Wick, the usual way is for one man to own the
boat and materials, and to agree so many hired men for the fishing.
16,704. Do you think that a system of paying the men when they
deliver their fish would have the effect of keeping them from
getting so much into debt as they do now?-I think it would be
difficult to work such a system in the far north, or in the Western
Hebrides. We could not pay them on delivery there, so as to keep
them out of debt. It would certainly be an advantage for all parties
concerned if the fishermen would agree to be paid by a price on
delivery, as is done on the Fifeshire coast; but from the fact of
their being so heavily in debt, and so much encumbered in these
northern places, they require some advance before they are able to
go to the fishing at all; and it is only perhaps one half of the
fishermen who are in an independent position to make terms.
16,705. You think such a system would be an advantage to you
because it would simplify your accounts?-Yes; and it would save
a great many debts. We reckon that probably 50 per cent. of the
amount due by those debted boats is lost to us altogether in our
books.
16,706. In what way does that happen?-They run into debt, and
get so hopeless, that we have to mark them off as bad debts.
16,707. Does that happen even in your case where you have no
shop?-Yes, even where we have no shop or anything of the kind;
because, when the fishermen get so hopelessly into debt they don't
care what they do, and very often they throw up the fishing
altogether and leave the debt. We have had thousands of pounds
knocked off in that way as bad debts.
16,708. In what way were these debts incurred?-By advancing
the fishermen and trying to get them clear.
16,709. Do you mean advancing them money?-Advancing them
money and materials, such as lines and hooks, and always trying
to get them to fish clear; but instead of that, some of them go so
much behind that their case becomes, quite hopeless.
16,710. Are you speaking now of the boat-owners at Wick and the
sharesmen in the Lewis fishing?-Yes; there are a good many
debts incurred among them.
16,711. Do these men have ledger accounts in your books, or is
there an account for each crew?-We have no individual accounts
with the partners. The account is usually headed, So and so and
crew, and the place where he belongs to.
16,712. But if you kept a shop and supplied them with goods-
as you say the curers in Stornoway do who have shops-there
could then be individual accounts in your books?-The curers
in Stornoway have not got shops, but they usually give the
fishermen an order upon a particular shop where they can go
and get supplies. The fish-curers are not the owners of the shops
themselves.
16,713. In Wick, I understand, a somewhat similar custom prevails
of giving orders upon shops?-Yes; the orders are given upon the
shops to get the fishermen supplied during the time of the fishing.
16,714. Do you think it would be practicable to settle the accounts
at these shops at shorter intervals than at the end of the season?-I
think if it could possibly be done, it would be an advantage to both
parties; but there is a difficulty in the way, owing to many of the
men being in such a poor position.
16,715. Is there not a difficulty in the men in the Lewis and at
Barra being so far from their homes, and so distant from banks?-
No. The men at Barra, who fish for five or six or seven weeks,
return to the east coast when their fishing is done, and they are
paid immediately for their fish. They get what money they require
there to pay each other, and when they come home they are all
settled with and paid off, so that they get their money immediately.
16,716. Therefore there would be no advantage in paying them on
delivery of their fish?-None whatever. If they are paid at once at
the end of the fishing, it is all they need.
16,717. At the Lewis would there not be an advantage in paying
the resident men week by week, so that they could have money
with which to supply themselves?-If that system were practicable
it might be an advantage.
16,718. But even there in your business the settlement takes place
within two or three months?-Yes. In many [Page 429] cases it
takes place immediately after the fishing is over.
16,719. And the fishing season, I understand, lasts from May to the
end of June?-Yes; or the beginning of July. It lasts for eight
weeks.
16,720. Why is it not practicable to pay the men more
frequently?-On account of the circumstances the men are
in; and besides, a good many of them I know have great
objections to being paid by the price of the day. They always
wish to be engaged at a price to be paid at the end of the season.
They are afraid of the price rising and falling. One day it may be
high, and the next day it may be very low; so that they prefer a
stated price during the whole season, and then they are settled.
16,721. Could you not fix that stated price at the beginning of the
season?-Not if we were to pay by the price of the day. If the
system pursued in Fife could be got to work in these northern and
western places, it would be a decided advantage to the fishermen
themselves if they agreed to it.
16,722. Have you tried them?-I have often spoken to the
fishermen about that. I have been round there agreeing and
settling with the boats, and I have often mentioned the subject,
but they have always said that such a thing would not work there
at all.
16,723. Do you know the system of settlement in Shetland with
the cod and ling fishermen?-Not from my own knowledge.
16,724. The men there are engaged early in the spring, or even as
early as Martinmas, to fish for the following season. Some of
them are bound to do so without any agreement; but the
understanding is, that they are to get the current price at the end
of the season,-the season being from May until about 12th
August for the cod and ling fishing,-and the settlement does not
take place until November or December, and even later?-The
reason for that is, that in Shetland after the fishing is over it takes
two or three months until the fish are cured, so that they cannot
state a price to the men in Shetland until after the curing has been
completed.
16,725. Are not the sales made in September or October?-Yes;
and they then arrange what the price is to be.
16,726. But you say that the delay in settling there for the cod and
ling fishing arises from the way in which the current price is fixed
at the end of the season?-Yes; it is merely because the fish
cannot be cured within a month or so.
16,727. And you cannot sell them and ascertain the price until
they are cured?-That is the usual way in which they do. They
ascertain the price at the end of the season when the fish are cured,
and they settle with the fishermen accordingly.
16,728. From your experience of fishermen in different parts of
Scotland, do you think they are likely to be more prosperous when
they are paid by the price of the day than when they are paid upon
long settlements?-I think it would be a great advantage to
themselves, and also to the fish-curer, if they were to be paid by
the price of the day.
16,729. Why would it be an advantage to the fishermen?-
Because they would get simply what is due to them, and the
fish-curer would not run any risk from the men getting into debt.
Along the Fifeshire coast the fishermen are not in debt to the
fish-curers, simply because they get a price per cran per day, and
don't require any advances. In the northern districts, on the
contrary, owing to the number of fishermen always getting new
boats and materials, they require advances to fit them out; and the
system of paying by the price of the day not being in force there,
they generally get heavily into debt, and many of them never come
out of it.
16,730. Is it the case that on the coast of Fife, and in the eastern
district of Banff, the fishermen are not in debt to the curers at
all?-Yes; they are usually a better class of fishermen altogether
on the Fife and Buckie coasts.
16,731. On the east coast do the men get supplies of lines and
boats from the fish-curers?-Very seldom. They are all in a pretty
good position; and two or three of them can take a boat between
them, and fish by the price of the day, so that they always know
what they are to have by the end of the week. They are all paid
once a week, or even oftener, and they scarcely ever get into debt.
16,732. In Fifeshire, however, they have a fresh market to a
considerable extent?-Yes.
16,733. Is it not owing to that that the system of frequent payments
has come into force there?-That may be the reason partly. There
are always a good many English buyers among the fishermen
there, and the men would not trust them, as it were, for more than
a day or two, because they are not thoroughly acquainted with
them; but in the case of fish-curers who are well known to the
men, they never think about settling until the end of the season.
16,734. Is that the case even in Fifeshire?-Yes; but in some cases
with the local curers in Fife, the boats agree by a price per cran.
16,735. Is there a large proportion of the boats so agreed?-Not
now. At Stonehaven, about one half of the boats fishing there are
agreed for the whole fishing. The others are engaged, as it were,
by the price of the day.
16,736. Do these boats get an equal price for their green fish with
those who sell them on the nail?-Sometimes, if a heavy fishing
comes in, the men will only get a few shillings per cran for them;
and it is that uncertainty with regard to the price which they may
get that makes a great many of the northern fishermen agree by a
stated price throughout it whole season.
16,737. Do these men who agree in that way get supplies or
advances throughout the course of the season?-They usually do
if they require them.
16,738. Are these advances made in money or in goods?-In both.
16,739. How do they get them in goods? Have the curers not
shops from which they supply them?-The curers have not got
shops, but they will give them an order. They become security to
the merchants, and give the men an order for what they may want,
the curer becoming responsible for it.
16,740. Where cod and ling are sold to a curer in Shetland, for
instance, is there any reason why they should not be paid in cash
on the nail according to the price of the day? Assuming always
that the fishermen are willing to agree to that, is there any reason
in the nature of the business why that system should not be
followed there?-The nature of the business is such that the
fish-curers themselves cannot ascertain what price to give to the
fishermen until the end of the season, and the fishermen and the
fish-curers usually agree together that they are to get the current
price, that is the price which the fish-curer can afford to give them
at the end of the season, when he has once ascertained what it is.
16,741. In that way the fishermen take part of the risk of the
market?-Yes.
16,742. Is there any reason why the fishermen should not take that
risk, and be paid according to the market price of the day when he
delivers his fish?-None whatever. They could get a stated price
for every fish they catch.
16,743. And that price might be higher or it might be lower?-It
might be; or they could agree to fish for so many weeks at a
certain price per fish overhead.
16,744. They might agree at the commencement of the season to
fish for a stated price, or they might allow it to fluctuate from
week to week?-They might do either; or they might agree to be
settled with at the end of their six weeks' fishing, in a similar
manner to what they do at the herring fishing, when they settle
with the men immediately upon the fishing being done.
16,745. Is there any reason why they should not actually receive
payment for their fish weekly or fortnightly, even in remote places
like Shetland where the distances are great?-There is no great
reason why they should not have an agreement of that sort because
it is [Page 430] practicable even in the West Highlands, and round
the Caithness and Buckie coasts.
16,746. Have you to do so in many cases?-We have. This season
there has been an extraordinarily large cod fishing, and the boats
are agreed at 1s. to 1s. 3d. for cash, with a few pounds of bounty to
the fishermen. There are perhaps 8 or 10 curers in each place, and
each of them has perhaps 10 or 12 boats fishing to him. These
fishermen put in all their fish to their various curers, and they are
paid as soon as the fishing is done. They agree from December
until the middle or the end of March,-20th March is the date this
year,-and upon that date they get settled as soon as the fishing is
finished, and if they require any money during the fishing they get
it to account.
16,747. Then the price is fixed at the beginning of the season?-It
is fixed before the men go to sea.
16,748. And the settlement takes place at the end of the season?-
Yes; and the men get any money to account which they require, in
order to carry them through the season. That applies to Stornoway
and Gairloch, and all round the Caithness and Sutherland coasts,
and also to the Fifeshire and Buckie district for this very season.
These crews are made up of the local men, natives; they have
usually 6 or 7 men in a boat, and they share and share alike.
16,749. I suppose they do require to have part of the price of their
fish advanced to them during winter, and before the general
settlement at the end of the season?-Some of them would, but
others would not.
16,750. Do you know whether these fishermen have farms of their
own?-No; the fishermen on the east coast have no farms. They
live in fishing villages, like the village of Newhaven; but in
Gairloch and in Stornoway they usually have little crofts.
16,751. Even with these men would it not be an advantage to settle
fortnightly? Would there be any practical difficulty in doing so if
the men wished it?-No; if they liked to take the risk.
16,752. Would there be any risk?-There would be no risk if the
price was fixed at the commencement of the season; but if they
were to fish by the price of the day the men would not like it,
because in the case of a great fishing the price comes down almost
to nothing, and they are always afraid of that.
16,753. When a great quantity of fish is taken the price falls
immediately, and that you say is the reason why they don't want
to fish at the price of the day?-Yes; they want a stated price, so
that they may know what they are to get, whether the fish are many
or few.
16,754. On the other hand, they would have an advantage if they
got a larger price when there was a small fishing?-Yes; but they
won't take that risk. I have often spoken to the fishermen of these
districts, especially in Buckie, about that, and suggested that they
should take the price of the day, but they always liked to have their
agreement with the bounty.
16,755. The bounty, I suppose, is intended to carry their families
through part of the season?-No; the bounty is an old custom. It
was granted by the Government to the fishermen round about
Shetland and in that quarter. A great many boats went there from
the south coast, and there usually was a bounty granted to them, I
think about 200 years ago; but that system ceased then, and the
fish-curers commenced to cure.
16,756. Were they asked to continue the bounty?-Not to continue
it; but it was only during the last ten years round the Banffshire
coast that the practice was continued. In that district there was a
scarcity of boats, and the fish-curers got so numerous that they
gave a bounty of from £5, £10, £15, and up to £30, or even £40, to
any crew who would agree to them.
16,757. Was that given as a kind of earnest?-Yes.
16,758. I suppose all the fish delivered are entered by the agent or
factor of the curer in a fish-book at the time of delivery?-Yes;
they are all tallied and extended by him.
16,759. Would it interfere with the business much for that man to
pay for the fish as he received them?-He could do it once a week
with ease. We could do it with reference to the haddock fishing all
round from the Wick coast into the Cromarty Firth, and round by
Fraserburgh. There are a great many parties fishing haddocks
there during the winter and spring, and we pay them weekly.
They are engaged by a price of so much per cwt., fixed at the
commencement of the season.
16,760. Is that an extensive fishery?-It is pretty extensive. In
some years it is very successful. This year it has not been so
successful; but that is the nature of it. So soon as the fishermen
have ceased fishing for herring, the east coast crews go to the west
coast about 1st May, and return about the end of June or 1st July.
They commence to fish upon the east coast about the 1st of July,
and continue until 10th September. They then cease for perhaps
two or three weeks, when they commence to fish haddocks until
the month of December. They have then the cod fishing; and it
continues with cod, halibut, and all fresh fish, until the middle of
March, and from the middle of March until the 1st of May, there is
comparatively nothing done. There is no engagement during that
time.
16,761. Is it the same kind of boats that are employed in all these
different kinds of fishing?-No; the fishermen have different kinds
of boats to suit the different kinds of fishing. In the herring season
the owners have hired men in their boats, and each man has his
skipper; whereas in the winter fishing five or six or seven of these
men go together and fish for themselves.
16,762. But that is still in the same kind of boat is it not?-The
half-decked boat is used at Wick; but, in fact, they have boats to
suit each fishing that they wish to go to. They usually use the large
herring boat for the cod fishing, and a smaller boat for the haddock
fishing.
16,763. What is the size of a haddock boat?-I think it is about 26
or 30 feet keel, and open. There is now usually it small deck on it.
The large herring boat is from 36 to 42 feet keel; but the boats
have increased greatly in size within the last eight or ten years.
16,764. Do you find that as the boats increase in size the fisherman
is generally more successful?-Yes. They have the advantage of
going a greater distance to sea and staying longer out when their
boats are decked, and they return with heavier takes.
16,765. Are you acquainted, from your own experience, with the
character of the boats which are used?-Yes. I have gone out to
sea and seen how the fishing was carried on.
16,766. Would you consider that a fishing community was at great
disadvantage, as compared with other communities, who used only
open six-oared boats of about 21 or 22 feet keel?-They would be
at a decided disadvantage.
16,767. Perhaps you are aware that that is the case in Shetland, and
that in the haaf fishing they go out twenty or thirty miles to sea,
and remain out only for it single night at a time?-If they had the
large lugger boats which we have on this coast, they could stay out
for several nights, having provisions with them and room for their
fish.
16,768. Are the large boats you refer to equally available for laying
long lines in very deep water and on a rocky bottom?-I cannot
say that. There would be more danger with them. They could not
work large boats so easily as they could work the small ones.
16,769. What is the depth of water in which your large boats
generally fish?-I can hardly say; but when they go out to the
banks, thirty or forty miles off, they may fish in thirty or forty
fathoms of water in the Moray Firth.
16,770. Perhaps your knowledge of the fishing does not enable you
to give much information about that?-No, not practically; but I
have gone out three or four times in the season.
16,771. Do you know any district in Scotland or in England where
the settlement with the fishermen takes place only once it year as
it does in Shetland?-I understand there are two fishings in
Shetland: the herring fishing, and the cod and ling fishing.
[Page 431]
16,772. It is the cod fishing I am speaking of. Do you know any
place except Shetland where the settlement for any kind of fishing
takes place only once a year?-I scarcely know how to answer that
question.
16,773. In Shetland the cod and ling fishing is the only one in
which they fish for the curers,-leaving the herring fishing out
of account,-and they are paid for that only once a year, a
considerable time after the end of the fishing. Do you know any of
the fishing contracts in the kingdom which are settled at so long a
period after the fishing is over?-In Orkney the fishermen are
settled with for the herring fishing of August at the end of October.
That fishing ends in the middle of September, and they are not
settled with before the end of October.
16,774. But is it not the case that, in almost all the cases with
which you are acquainted, there is a short season of from five to
six weeks, or two to three months, and a settlement takes place at
the end of it?-Yes, the final settlement takes place at the end; but
at the beginning of the herring fishing the men get an advance. As
soon as the fishing is done they get some money to clear off their
current expenses, and to pay their hired men; and then about
October or November they get a final settlement, when the
season's transactions are settled for.
16,775. That is for the herring fishing which commences when?-
It commences on 20th July, and that is their great fishing.
16,776. Then there is the Lewis herring fishing, to which a great
number of the same men who fish at Wick go?-Yes.
16,777. Is that settled before the herring fishing at Wick begins
again?-Yes; it is settled as soon as it is finished.
16,778. Then, if any of these herring fishermen go to the cod and
ling fishing in winter, that is settled for the end of that fishing
too?-Yes.
16,779. Some of them may perhaps go to the haddock fishing in
spring again, and that is settled weekly?-Yes. The haddock
fishing is usually settled weekly.
16,780. On the Moray Firth that makes up the whole fishing
seasons of the year?-It does.
16,781. And each of these is settled at its close?-Yes.
16,782. So that they will have four settlements in the course of the
year?-Yes; four settlements for the various fishings. With regard
to the men who go round to the Stornoway fishing, it would
scarcely be practicable to settle with them weekly, or before they
return home, because of their distance from home and the peculiar
nature of the business. The amount actually due to them could not
be rightly ascertained until they came home, and all their accounts
had been made up and settled.
16,783. Why is that?-Because, from the nature of our business,
there are so many places where we give the fishermen the option
to run into with their fish, and we would require all the books from
these places to be handed over to us and checked, before we could
proceed to settle with them.
16,784. Might these fish not be settled for at the station on
delivery?-We could settle for them at the station on delivery;
but we find so many mistakes occurring afterwards, that unless
the books were first checked before the fishermen were paid, we
would be apt to lose a good deal.
16,785. How do these mistakes arise?-Because the fishermen
may have delivered so many crans of herrings at a different place,
where they could not get them entered, and there are so many
fishermen of the same name, that one is often confounded with
another, unless they are known to the parties, or have 'T' names
attached to them, which are a sort of nickname. But the fishermen
are quite well pleased when they get their settlement as soon as the
fishing is done. It is only along the Fifeshire coast, and about
Stonehaven and Aberdeen, that any of the crews during the great
summer fishing for herrings are agreed, or deliver their fish by the
price of the day, or sell their fish daily.
16,786. Do you know of any other place in the kingdom, except
Shetland, where the men have a final settlement only once a year
for all the work of the year, whether cod, or ling, or herring, or
whatever it may be?-No. The same system does not prevail in
any part of the kingdom except Shetland.
16,787. Do you know any other part of the kingdom where the
curers universally keep shops to supply their fishermen with meal
and soft goods?-No. There may be an instance or two of that
kind round the coast, but I may say that I am not aware of any.
16,788. Do you know whether it is a fact that at Wick the men are
to a large extent in debt to the curers?-A great many of them are
in debt, but there are a great many independent men who are not in
debt.
16,789. I understand the men at Wick are divided into two classes:
free men and unfree men?-Yes.
16,790. The unfree men have to fish to the curers to whom they
owe money on general terms?-Yes; on the general terms of
debted boats, and they are settled with by the curer at the end of
the season. That is somewhat similar to the custom in Shetland.
The fishcurers at the end of the season find the price per cran after
they have ascertained the state of the markets, that is, during the
month of October, and then pay the unfree men the price, which is
usually 1s. per cran less than what is paid to the free boats. That
difference is made as a sort of guarantee or security for the risk
which they run in advancing boats and nets.
16,791. Is the debt incurred by the fishermen to the curer entirely
for boats and nets supplied by the curer?-Yes; and for advances
in money.
16,792. Are these advances in money made to a man to enable him
to pay his hired men, and so on?-Yes. The fish-curer has a great
deal of risk to run in fitting out a debted boat, because he usually
becomes security for the hired men's wages; and if he does so he
will require to pay them whether they make a good fishing or not.
16,793. What are the wages of the hired men?-They usually
range from £6 to £10 along the northern coast.
16,794. What is the cost of a boat at Wick?-A new boat at Wick
would cost about £120 or £130.
16,795. Does the curer frequently advance that?-He usually
advances one half of it. It is not often that any fish-curer would
give a boat to any fisherman who had not any means of his own.
16,796. They expect a fisherman to whom they supply a boat to
have some capital equal at least to the cost of one half a boat?-
Yes.
16,797. What is the cost of a drift of nets at Wick?-They usually
have 40 nets there now, and the cost of a net is about £3, so that a
boat and nets would cost about £250 altogether.
16,798. All that expense lies upon the herring fishing alone?-
Yes.
16,799. The man, if he is a free man, can use his boat for any of
the other fishings except the herring fishing?-Yes. They usually
engage also for the Lewis fishing, but not to the same fish-curer.
In that fishing he may engage to anybody he likes; but in the
herring fishing he must engage to the man who has advanced him
his boat and lines.
16,800. Would you say that two-thirds of the men at Wick are
unfree men?-No. I don't think there are above one third of the
men at Wick who are indebted men. I know every one of them
personally, from settling with them, and I have a good knowledge
of their circumstances.
16,801. Would you be surprised to hear that an extensive curer in
Wick estimated the number of free men at nearly one third, and
that the unfree men were two thirds?-I would be surprised at that;
because I know that of the number of fishermen who own boats
not above one third of them are in debt. It may happen that after a
bad fishing many of these men may get a little behind, but after a
successful fishing there are not more than one third or one fourth
of them who are in debt.
16,802. Are you speaking now only of the boat-owners?-Yes.
[Page 432]
16,803. Does a man remain bound to fish on general terms even
when his debt is reduced to a low sum, such as £20 or £30?-He is
not bound to do it, because he can find another fish-curer who will
give him that advance to enable him to pay off his old curer.
16,804. But then he would be unfree and bound to fish to this new
creditor?-The other fish-curer usually gives him the current price
of free boats, if the man is considered a good man, when the debt
comes as low as that.
16,805. Is there any line where you say that a man becomes free?
Do you consider him to be so when his debt is reduced to £50?-
When it is under £30, I think the man is considered to be a good
man.
16,806. Do you know any district, except in Shetland, where the
men are bound to fish for the landlord from whom they hold their
ground?-Along certain estates on the Moray coast there are
certain villages to which a great many fishermen belong, and I
think there is sort of feudal system of the same kind there. There
are villages on the estate of Sarklet, near Wick, and at Clyth, and
other places, where many of the fishermen have had it in their
option to leave the place altogether, and they have usually come
down to Wick and been dealt with there as free men. If they
fished in the village where they lived before, they had usually to
fish to the fish-curer who had obtained the station at groundrent
from the proprietor. It was to the advantage of the proprietor to
have the fishermen fishing for that curer, so long as they remained
on his estate. In these places the price usually ranges 1s. per cran
below the town price.
16,807. Is that because the men hold yearly tacks?-They hold
crofts year by year, and they are fishermen at the same time.
16,808. Do you know whether they pay their rent to the landlord
direct, or through the fish-curer?-They pay it twice a year, at
Candlemas and Martinmas, to the landlord; but they are not in the
same way bound as the Shetland fishermen are. They are not in
the same state of bondage.
16,809. Wherein do you think is the difference?-They are free to
leave the place when they like, and they may go down to the town
and fish; but they might incur the proprietor's displeasure if they
were to go away and leave the place altogether if their crofts were
under lease.
16,810. Are these the only cases of the kind which you know?-
They are; and they are very small in extent.
16,811. Do you know any districts where it is frequently the case
that a fisherman does not receive any money at all in payment
for his fish, but runs an account for goods which is more than
sufficient to balance the money due for the fish?-There may
be a stray case of that kind, but it is not common. Where the
fishermen are so negligent that they are hopelessly sunk in debt,
the fish-curer, of course, tries to give them as little advance as
possible, and to get them to fish as much as possible, in order that
they may get out of debt; but in some cases where they make a
poor fishing and have been heavily in debt he cannot give them
any advance in money, but he may give them an advance in goods.
16,812. Is that a common thing in your experience?-It is not.
16,813. In what districts would you say it was most common?-
Along the Caithness coast.
16,814. Can you furnish me from your books with a note of the
price cod, ling, and tusk in September, for the last ten or fifteen
years?-Yes. We usually buy from the Shetland fish-curers during
the month of August. Between May and August we often ask
quotations from them for a quantity of fish to be delivered either in
Ireland or in Leith in September or October, and they usually send
on the quotation in September. We have bought largely in that
way during the last ten years, so that I can furnish a list of the
prices.
16,815. Do you supply hooks and lines to your fishermen?-There
is a little of that done to the Gairloch and west coast fishermen,
because there are no places there from which they can supply
themselves. We buy the materials in Glasgow, and send them on
to the men, and allow them to lie at the debit of the crew's account
until they are able to pay for them. The only thing we supply
usually is cutch to fishermen.
<Adjourned>.
EDINBURGH: THURSDAY, APRIL 18, 1872
<Present>-MR GUTHRIE.
JAMES LEWIS, examined.
16,816. What are you?-I am a grocer and wine merchant in
Canongate, Edinburgh. I have other two places of business
besides that.
16,817. Have you carried on an extensive business in
Edinburgh?-I have, for nearly forty years.
16,818. You have examined some samples which I sent to you,
and given me a report of the values you put upon them?-Yes.
16,819. Is it a correct report?-It is.*
16,820. You examined a small parcel of oatmeal, No. 1 in the
report, which you value at 1s. per 7 lbs.: how much is that per
boll?-There is 140 lbs. in the boll, so that it would be exactly
20s. per boll. At the time I made the valuation that was a fair
average price for it in Edinburgh.
16,821. Was it a good quality of meal?-It was not; not so good as
some samples which I have frequently seen. I could not sell it in
my premises, for instance.
16,822. Would it be considered inferior quality in Canongate?-
Yes.
16,823. Could you not sell it at all?-Perhaps I could sell it; but I
should not like to trust selling it to my customers, as they might
not like to come back again.
16,824. Is it above or below the average quality of meal that is sold
in country districts?-I think that in Shetland it will perhaps be
about the average quality sold there, as it has likely been made
from oats grown in [Page 433] that country; but it is not like meal
made from oats grown in Midlothian.
16,825. Do you know that from any knowledge which you have of
Shetland trade?-I don't know anything about it, further than from
seeing the quality of the meal which was submitted to me; and
comparing it with what could be made in Midlothian, I should say
that it was inferior in quality to anything that would be sold as
good meal here.
16,826. Perhaps you do not know much about the business which
is carried on in country districts?-I cannot say that I have carried
it on, but I know a good deal about it.
16,827. Have you examined any samples of meal from districts
similar to Shetland?-I have had meal from Aberdeenshire and
from Caithness.
16,828. Was this meal which you examined inferior to the average
quality of Caithness meal?-It was.
16,829. Was it much inferior?-I could not exactly say that, but it
was inferior.
16,830. The sample of tea, No. 2, submitted to you, you have
valued at 2s. 4d. per lb.; and you state at the end of your report,
that of course an allowance must be made for carriage, etc. to
Shetland?-Yes. Of course, tea must be sent to Shetland; they
must get it either from Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow, or London.
16,831. Is the value of 2s. 4d., which you have put upon it, what
you consider the retail price of that tea would be in Edinburgh?-
Yes.
16,832. Would it be reasonable to charge a much higher price than
that, in respect of the carriage to Shetland?-I think about 1s. per
cwt., or from that to 2s. at the outside, would be the expense of
carriage to Shetland.
16,833. That would make a very slight rise upon the price per
lb.?-It would be a mere trifle; because there would be about 84
to 90 lbs. in a chest, and they could get that sent down for 1s.
16,834. Would you consider 2s. 10d. an extravagant charge for that
in Shetland?-I would; because the value of 2s. 4d. which I put
upon it includes the profit of the merchant here.
16,835. Would 2s. 10d. be an extravagant charge for it in Shetland,
even as a credit price?-Yes; it would be so anywhere.
16,836. The tea No. 3 you also value at 2s. 4d. per lb.: is there any
difference between these two teas?-So far as I could see, I think
they are very like the same value. There is a little difference
between the style of the two teas, but nothing to affect the actual
value of them.
16,837. Could you account for one of them being sold at 81/2d. per
qr. and the other at 7d. per qr. lb.?-No; unless the party may have
bought the one too dear. The merchant must have his profit in any
case; but if he is not a judge of what he is buying, the wholesale
merchant will get a larger profit out of him than another.
16,838. Would you be surprised to be informed that these teas
were sold at these different prices?-I could not be done in that
way.
16,839. But you suppose the Shetland retail merchants may be
done in that way?-They may be ignorant of their business, for
anything I know. There are a great many small people in the
country who carry on such a business as selling tea and who know
very little about it.
16,840. Still you think the teas are of the same quality, although
one of them was sold at 2s. 4d. and the other at 2s. 10d. per lb.?-
So far as I can judge, they are of the same quality; but I could
easily suppose there would be a difference of 6d. per lb. in the way
I have mentioned.
16,841. From a mistake on the part of the retailer?-Yes; or from
his ignorance of his business and the wholesale dealer taking
advantage of that.
16,842. Might he not have purchased the No. 3 tea as a bargain,
and given his customers the advantage of that?-He might have
done that; but it is not likely a Shetland man would do that.
16,843. The sample No. 4 was a specimen of sugar which you
value at 41/2d. per lb.: was that a fair quality of sugar?-Yes; a
very fair quality of sugar at that price.
16,844. Would 6d. per lb. be an extravagant price for it?-It would
be so here.
16,845. Would you consider it an extravagant price in a country
district also?-I think it would be. I think 5d. would be about the
value of that sugar in Shetland; it would not be more.
16,846. No. 5 is a sample of tea also which you value at 2s. 6d. per
lb.?-Yes; it is better than the others.
16,847. Would 2s. 10d. per lb. be an extravagant price for it in
Shetland?-I think it might sell there for 2s. 10d., or even 3s. I
consider it to be a very good tea.
16,848. You value it at 2s. 6d?-Yes, here; but I think 2s. 10d.
would be a fair value for it in Shetland.
16,849. You allow a greater advance upon that tea as sold in
Shetland than you did upon the others?-Yes. The higher the
price of the tea is, generally speaking, there is a larger profit upon
it.
16,850. Do you think a merchant would be fairly entitled to take a
larger profit upon No. 5 than upon No. 2?-Yes; a little.
16,851. Then 2s. 10d. would not be a very extravagant charge for
it?-I don't think it.
16,852. No. 6 is a sample of sugar which you value at 41/2d. per lb.:
was that of the same quality as the other sugar?-There was very
little difference between them.
16,853. Would that be fairly charged at 5d. per lb.?-I think it
would sell for about the same as the other.
16,854. No. 7 is a sample of tobacco which you value at 1s. per
lb.?-Yes; that is the retail price. I cannot say that I am a great
judge of tobacco; but that is the retail price in Edinburgh for
something like the same quality.
16,855. That is 3d. per oz.: would you consider 4d. per oz. an
overcharge for it in a country district?-Yes, I think it would be
1d. of an overcharge. They buy it for about 3s. 4d. per lb., and I
consider that 8d. upon a pound of tobacco is a very fair profit.
16,856. No. 8 is also a sample of tobacco which you value at 4s.
per lb.: was it of the same quality?-So far as I am able to judge
it was.
16,857. No. 9 was a sample of tea which you value at 3s. per lb.:
would 1s. 1d. per qr. lb. be too much to charge for it?-It would be
too much to charge for any of the teas that were submitted to me.
16,858. Was this the best of the teas?-I thought so.
16,859. Was it considerably superior to the others?-I thought so;
but 4s. 4d. would be far too much to charge for it.
16,860. No. 10 is a sample of loaf sugar which you value at 6d.:
would 8d. per lb. be too much for it?-It would be too large a
price to charge for it.
16,861. Even in Shetland?-I think so.
16,862. You have stated in your report that the sample of flour,
No. 11, was not fit for use?-I considered so.
16,863. Do you think that arises from it having been kept too long
after being got from the shop?-No, I don't think it is flour at all.
It seems to be a sort of mixture that I would not like to give to a
pig.
16,864. I now show you the sample No. 11 again: is that [showing]
the flour you refer to?-Yes.
16,865. You don't think it is fit for use at all?-I do not; at least I
don't think it would do in Edinburgh.
16,866. What is it?-My opinion is, that there is good deal of
barley-meal in it, not flour at all.
16,867. Then, if that is the case, it would in your opinion be
overcharged at 2d. per lb.?-Yes. That would be 14d. per peck
of 7 lbs., or 46s. per bag, which is about the price of the best flour
just now.
16,868. What was it in December or January last?-It was cheaper
than it is now.
16,869. Then you think that 2d. per lb. would have been an absurd
charge for that flour at that time?-Perfectly absurd.
[Page 434]
16,870. No. 12 is a sample of rice which you have valued at 21/2d.
per lb.: was that rice of good quality?-Yes; it was of fairish
quality.
16,871. Would 31/2d. be too much for it?-It would be more than
could be got for it here.
16,872. Would it be extravagant to charge that price for it in an
outlying country district?-I think it would. I think 3d. would be
the outside that could be got for it.
16,873. Are you aware that the expense of carriage to some
of these places must be pretty high?-They have direct
communication to Lerwick twice a week, which, as I said
before, cannot exceed 2s. per cwt., and that would be about
1/4d. per lb.
16,874. Supposing it had to be conveyed thirty miles from
Lerwick, that of course would increase the expense?-Of course
it would add to the expense; but I have been speaking of the
direct communication between Edinburgh and Lerwick.
16,875. No. 13 is a sample of soap, which you value at 4d. per lb.:
was that a good quality of soap?-It was middling; but it was in
such a state from being dried up, that one could scarcely judge of
it. However, I think that would be about its value.
16,876. Had it been injured by being kept?-It gets dry and hard
from the moisture getting out of it. If I had seen it cut from the
bar, I might have come nearer a proper judgement of it.
16,877. Do you think 6d. per lb. would be too high for it?-
Decidedly; either for it or any kind of soap.
16,878. You think that even although you had seen it cut from
the bar you could not have put so high a value as that upon it?-I
could not.
16,879. Can you say generally with regard to the samples, that any
of them were deteriorated by having been kept for some time after
leaving the shop?-I do not think they had been much affected.
The sugar may have changed its character a little by being dry, and
also the soap; but I don't think any of the other articles could be
much deteriorated in value by that.
16,880. Would you make any allowance in your estimate of their
value on that account?-No; I just valued them as I saw them,
according to the best of my judgement.
16,881. Do you think it would be fair to make any such
allowance?-No, I don't think it would be necessary.
16,882. Is it usual to charge a higher price for such goods in
country districts than in the town?-Generally it is the case
that a rather higher price is charged. There is less competition
in business, and there can be no doubt that in a country district
you pay more for articles than in town.
16,883. But, on the other hand, rents are lower in the country than
in the town?-No doubt they are; but the amount of business is
usually much less.
16,884. Making full allowance for that, however, do you think that
certain of the articles which have been submitted to you have been
overcharged?-I think the whole of them have been. There is one
thing I may mention, which is, that looking back fifty years ago
they had then no direct communication between Shetland and the
large towns in the country, and the merchants there were longer in
being paid for what they sent south; but now they are paid within
ten days of the time when they send their goods to Edinburgh or
Glasgow or Newcastle, or wherever it is, and that makes a very
considerable difference to these merchants.
16,885. What goods do you refer to?-Any kind of goods that the
islands furnish. If the merchants send eggs, butter, bacon, or
anything of that kind, to people in Edinburgh or Glasgow, they get
a remittance in cash within ten days for the amount of the goods
sent. Formerly that could not be the case, because they had to wait
perhaps for a sailing vessel once a month, or something like that;
and that makes a great difference to the people in Shetland.
16,886. Do you receive large consignments of eggs and butter
from Shetland?-I get large consignments from Caithness, but not
from Shetland.
16,887. But you know that the practice with Shetland is to remit
back at once for that?-Yes, at once.
*Mr. Lewis's report stated the following as his valuation of the
different samples submitted to him:-
No. 1 Oatmeal, per 7 lbs. £0 1 0
No. 2. Tea, per lb., 0 2 4
No. 3. Tea, do., 0 2 4
No. 4. Sugar, do., 0 0 41/2
No. 5. Tea, do., 0 2 6
No. 6. Sugar, do., 0 0 41/2
No. 7. Tobacco, do., 0 4 0
No. 8. Tobacco, do., 0 4 0
No. 9. Tea, do., 0 3 0
No. 10. Loaf Sugar, do., 0 0 6
No. 11. Flour, not fit for use.
No. 12. Rice, per lb., 0 0 21/2
No. 13. Soap, do., 0 0 4
The samples Nos. 1, 2, 3, and 4 were those purchased at Mossbank
by the witness A.T. Jamieson, 7954; Nos. 5 and 6 were samples
obtained by the Commissioner personally, at Messrs. Spence &
Co. at Uyea Sound; No. 7 was obtained at the shop at Grutness;
No. 8 from the shop of Mr. Gavin Henderson, Scousborough; and
Nos. 9 to 13 were produced by the witness Charlotte Johnston, as
having been purchased at the shop of Mr. Morgan Laurenson,
Lochend.
Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, MAGNUS MOWAT, examined.
16,888. Are you a boat-builder in Newhaven?-I am.
16,889. Do you do a large business there in building boats for
fishermen?-Yes, I do a pretty large business.
16,890. Do you know the style of boat that is built in Shetland?-
Yes. I have seen one or more of them at Wick, when I was there at
the herring fishing.
16,891. You mean the six-oared boat of about 21 or 22 feet
keel?-Yes. I have seen one at least of those dimensions.
16,892. Do you build boats of that kind yourself?-No. Our boats
are much superior to the boats there.
16,893. Can you say at what price you could build a of 22 feet keel
in the style of the Shetland boat?-I could hardly say.
16,894. What do you get for a boat of that size, such as you are in
the habit of building?-£22, 10s. That is just for the shell of the
boat, with the ironwork attached to it. The men have the masts,
sails, and oars to supply on their own responsibility.
16,895. How much would the mast and ropes and other fittings
cost, including the sail?-I don't know what quantity of ropes they
would require, but with the yawls which are used in fishing in the
Firth of Forth, it generally costs about £1, 10s. to fit them with
mast and oars, and the necessary spar, without the sail. The sail, I
think, would cost about £4.
16,896. You have seen a Shetland boat: have you any idea whether
such a boat as is used there would cost more or less than a boat
such as you have been speaking of?-The Shetland boats of the
same size would not be half the value of our boats here.
16,897. Why?-Because the timber is inferior, and they are
lighter. I might have 24 timbers in a side, when they would
only have 10 or 12.
16,898. Are your boats built in the same style as the Shetland
boats? Are they clinker-built?-Yes; but I don't suppose they
use the same materials. I think it is Norwegian timber they use;
and if that is so, the cost of them would be considerably less.
16,899. About how much less would it be?-I cannot calculate
that exactly, because wages there are less than they are here.
16,900. What would be the difference in the cost of the timber?
Would it be so much as one half?-No. Larch is about 14s. per
100 feet of planking, and the timber they use would be from 8s. to
10s.
16,901. I suppose boat-builders' wages are considerably less in
Shetland and Caithness than here?-Yes; they are from 6s. to 8s.
a week less, at any rate. I pay 24s. here, and I should think that
16s. would be about their figure there.
16,902. How long will one of your boats last?-From seventeen to
twenty years.
16,903. Is that the ordinary calculation as to the life of a boat?-It
depends a great deal upon the kind of work they are put to. In
some cases they do not last so long; but if they are preserved from
accident, they may last for that time.
16,904. Will a Shetland boat, such as you have seen, last its long
as that?-It will not last so long, according to my judgement.
16,905. Suppose it were used only for three or four months in the
summer, would it last longer than it would do if it were more
used?-Certainly it would.
16,906. But you think it would not last so long in any case its
seventeen or eighteen years?-No. The frame is much weaker:
there are fewer ribs in it than in our boats; because, while in a
Shetland boat there might be a rib every 2 or 3 feet, I might have
them 10 or 12 [Page 435] inches apart, and of course the ribs are
the strength of the boat.
16,907. Would twelve or fourteen years be the outside of the life
of a Shetland boat?-I would suppose that would be about as long
as they could run them with safety.
16,908. About how much do you think it takes to keep up a boat of
that size?-1s. a day during the time she is at work would keep her
up amply.
16,909. Suppose she were at work for 100 days in the year, that
would be £5. Do you mean to say that for every year a boat is
at work she will require £5 for repairs to keep her up?-The
Newhaven fishermen allow that for their 25 feet yawls. A sail is
not supposed to last above five years, or not more than three years
without repairs; and then they have the chance of breaking oars, or
any other accident that may occur. The allowance of 1s. a day
may be it little too much to cover all that; but there is an eighth
share allowed for the repairs of a boat in the case of the large
decked boats.
16,910. Are these the new boats which you have now got at
Newhaven?-No, they are the boats which were built in Caithness
nine or ten years ago. There is an eighth or a ninth share allowed
to the owner to keep them up.
16,911. Is that a ninth share of the fish taken?-Yes, or of the
money; but these Caithness boats are much dearer in price and
of better value than the Shetland boats.
16,912. From whom do you generally take your orders for building
boats? Is it from the fishermen or from the curers?-From the
fishermen altogether. I built one for Westray, in Orkney, last year,
and I also built a little one that went to Stromness.
16,913. Were these open boats or half-decked?-They were small
boats of about 18 feet keel. The one that went to Westray, I built
her for £14, because she was so light.
16,914. Do you think that £20 would be about the cost of one of
the Shetland six-oared boats ready for sea?-I would think they
were not too dear at that, if the sail and everything was provided.
16,915. Do you know anything about the practice of hiring boats
to fishermen on any part of the coast?-Yes. I was twelve years at
the herring fishing at Wick, and I knew about it there.
16,916. But the boats you had there were of a different class?-
Yes, they were far better boats than the Shetland boats. I had a
boat myself that cost me £94.
16,917. Are you able to say what would be a fair hire to charge for
one of the Shetland six-oared boats?-No; it depends altogether on
the material of which the boat is made. If I had seen the boat, I
could at once have given an opinion.
16,918. Suppose a fisherman was hiring one of the boats such
as you have seen for a season, that is, for about 31/2 months in
summer, what would be a fair rate of hire to pay, supposing the
boat had cost £20?-The boat would require about one half of a
man's share, whatever was the income, unless they made a bargain
for so many pounds for the three months, or the two months, or
whatever period was fixed.
16,919. Would £2, 10s. be an extravagant hire for that period?-I
don't think it would.
Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, DONALD DAVIDSON, examined.
16,920. What are you?-I am a fish-curer in Burntisland.
16,921 Were you for a long time in the employment of Mr.
Methuen?-Yes.
16,922. Have you again gone into his employment?-Yes.
16,923. Are you acquainted with the system of agreements
between the fish-merchants and fishermen throughout all the
Scotch fishings, both on the east and west coast?-Yes; I have
had a good deal of experience of them.
16,924. Had you anything to do with Mr. Methuen's fishing
transactions in Shetland?-Not particularly. I occasionally sent
stock there when ordered, such as empty barrels and salt to supply
the stations.
16,925. How long is it since these stations were given up?-About
two years ago, I think.
16,926. Do you refer to the stations in the Sandwick district?-
Yes.
16,927. Had Mr. Methuen any shop there?-No.
16,928. Do you know how the fishermen there got their supplies
during the fishing season?-I understand that a party who held the
land where the fishermen resided agreed for the boats with the
proprietor, and paid the proprietor at the end of the season, and
then the proprietor settled with the men. If they required any
goods during the fishing season, I think they got a line from the
proprietor to go to the shops in Lerwick or Scalloway for them.
16,929. But I thought it was Mr. Methuen who agreed the boats?-
I think that most of the boats that he had were agreed in that way.
16,930. Had he an agent in Shetland?-Yes. The men who fished
for him belonged to a certain district, and the proprietor of that
district had a control over the boats, and it was him who arranged
with Mr. Methuen.
16,931. Do you know whether Mr. Methuen's agent there was in
the habit of giving lines to the fishermen to enable them to get
supplies from the shops in Lerwick?-I am not aware of that.
16,932. I thought that was what you said?-No; it was the
proprietor of the land in the district where Mr. Methuen had
the fishing station that gave the lines to the fishermen.
16,933. Was that Mr. Bruce of Sandlodge?-Yes.
16,934. Were Mr. Methuen's arrangements to get these boats to
deliver their fish to him all made with the proprietor?-Yes.
16,935. Then he had no direct agreement with the fishermen?-I
understand not.
16,936. Have you any personal knowledge about that?-The
information I received was from the men who had charge there
for Mr. Methuen.
16,937. Are any of these men now in Edinburgh?-I don't think
they are.
16,938. Do you know whether Mr. Methuen was in the habit of
making payments to the fishermen during the fishing season, or
whether all his payments to the fishermen were made at the end
of the season?-I understand that if any advance was given to the
men, it was given through the proprietor, Mr. Bruce.
16,939. What is the nature of the contract entered into with the
men employed in the cod and ling fishing in Lewis and the western
islands?-The boats are agreed at a certain time, sometimes in
March, to commence to fish about 20th May, and they get so much
per cran and so much of bounty.
16,940. Have you made such contracts yourself, both on your own
and on Mr. Methuen's account?-Yes; but principally for Mr.
Methuen.
16,941. Do the men receive the bounty at the commencement, or
before the commencement of the season?-The way in which it is
done is this: the fish-curer and the fishermen make the contract in
March, and then the men generally get the bounty a fortnight or a
month after the time of agreeing, or at all events they generally get
it before they commence to fish.
16,942. What is the purpose of giving the bounty?-I suppose
there is no particular reason for it. I understand some curers
like to give it in order to procure the best boats, and to be an
inducement to the men to contract with them.
16,943. Is the price per cran invariably fixed before the beginning
of the season?-If the boats are agreed, as they generally are on
the Moray Firth-
16,944. But I am speaking of the Lewis fishery alone. You
mentioned about a price per cran, which I suppose applies only
to the herring fishing, while I was asking you about the cod
and ling fishing?-I don't know [Page 436] much about the
arrangements with the cod and ling fishermen; but I understand
they get it certain amount per cwt. or per dozen of fish.
16,945. I thought you said you had made arrangements with the
Lewis and West Highland fishermen?-Not for the cod and ling
fishing. I have made arrangements with them for the herring
fishing; but I understand the bargains are made on the same
principle.
16,946. Have you made bargains for the herring fishing at the
Lewis?-Yes. I have agreed boats at the Lewis for Mr. Methuen.
16,947. Were these boats belonging to the Lewis, and were the
fishermen living there?-Yes; both the fishermen and the boats
belonged to the Lewis.
16,948. In that case, when did the settlement take place?-I was
there two seasons, and I settled with them generally at the end of
the season-in the end of June.
16,949. Did the men get advances before the end of the season to
any extent?-Yes; they generally got pretty large advances.
16,950. In what form were these advances given?-In some cases
they got them in nets and ropes and bark, and sometimes in cash
too.
16,951. Do you supply them with the nets and bark, and other
things they require?-Yes; that is the general practice in
Stornoway.
16,952. Do they also get supplies of food and meal before the end
of the season?-Yes; sometimes.
16,953. Where do they get them?-It is generally from the curers
that they get their supplies of nets and ropes, so on.
16,954. But Mr. Methuen has not a shop in Stornoway?-No; but
he generally supplies the fishermen there with these things if they
cannot get them otherwise. He does not prohibit them from
getting them from the native merchants; but he usually keeps a
supply for any one who may require them.
16,955. Does he supply any meal at all?-None that I am aware of.
16,956. But what I asked you was, whether the men required
supplies of meal during the fishing season, if you know where they
get them?-I suppose they get them from the native merchants.
16,957. Do you know whether the curers have to make such
supplies or to guarantee such supplies in the Lewis?-Yes. I
understand they give the men a line or a letter stating that they
will be responsible for the price.
16,958. Have you had to do that in your own experience?-No; but
I am aware that it is done at Wick, and I think at Stornoway too.
16,959. Do you know of any cases at Stornoway in which it had to
be done?-No.
16,960. Are the fishermen in the Lewis very much indebted to the
curers?-They are.
16,961. Is that chiefly for nets and boats?-Yes. In some cases the
fish-curers give them boats, and perhaps nets too, and when they
don't make it good fishing they get into debt in that way.
16,962. Have you had any experience at all of the cod and ling
fishery?-No.
16,963. Have you not had any management of the fisheries in Fife
or on the east coast of Scotland?-I have been at Fraserburgh and
Rosehearty, but that was principally in connection with the herring
fishing.
16,964. Are you not acquainted with the cod and ling fishing on
the cast coast of Fife?-No; but I understand that in Fife the fish
are sold each day. The supply regulates the demand; and the men
are not generally agreed at all.
16,965. Would there, in your opinion, be any difficulty in settling
for the fish as they are delivered, in the western islands and in
Shetland?-No. Perhaps it might take a little time to bring about
the proper arrangements; but I think it would work better if such a
system were adopted.
16,966. Would it work better in the Wick herring fishery too?-I
see no reason why it should not.
16,967. Would it be more convenient for the curers?-They would
not make such large profits, I would suppose.
16,968. Why would the system of paying for the fish as they are
delivered lessen the curers' profit?-My experience, on the east
coast at least, has been, that the free boats are much more
independent than the others. The men seem to have a better
class of boats, and better material generally, when they can get
their money daily or weekly or monthly, as they may call for it.
These men can get their money daily if they wish it.
16,969. I thought these free boats were settled with at the end of
the season, just like the others: is not that so?-Not generally.
They don't have a regular place for delivering their fish. They
may deliver them at one place today, and at another place next
day, and when they fish in that way they generally collect their
money daily; but at some places, such as North Sunderland, where
the Fisherrow boats fish, they sometimes do not take the whole
amount until the end of the season, except the small amount they
get in supplies.
16,970. Do you say that at some places the free boats are paid just
as they deliver their fish?-Yes.
16,971. Where is that?-At Burntisland, for instance. When boats
come up from Anstruther or Buckhaven, they deliver their fish,
and we pay them on delivery, the same day.
16,972. Are these fish for curing, or for the fresh market?-For
both.
16,973. Does that lead to any difficulty?-None whatever. I have
had about twenty-eight years' experience of that system of paying
daily.
16,974. I suppose it saves you keeping accounts with the
fishermen?-We keep an account of the fish we have received,
but we have no running accounts with the men.
16,975. What kind of fish do you refer to as being delivered in that
way at Burntisland?-Principally herrings.
16,976. Do you take delivery of cod and haddocks in that way
too?-No; it is very seldom that boats come up in that way with
them. When they do, they sell them to the inhabitants and get cash
for them.
16,977. Have you had any management of the fisheries at
Anstruther?-Yes; I was two winters there, during the time of the
winter fishing, buying herrings, and we paid in the same way as we
do at Burntisland-just when the fishermen liked to call for their
money, which was generally weekly. Some boats were paid daily,
but others did not come asking for the money until the end of the
week.
16,978. The quantity of fish delivered was marked down in the
fish-book each time?-Yes.
16,979. So that you knew exactly how much the men had to get?-
Yes. The price was extended in the book.
16,980. Had the price been fixed at the beginning of the season?-
No. The price was fixed daily, according to the market, the supply
regulating the demand. That is the system at Burntisland, and at
Anstruther, Pittenweem, and St. Monance.
16,981. Are the fishermen at these places in a prosperous
condition under that system?-I think so.
16,982. Has there been a material change in their circumstances
within your recollection?-Yes; a very great change. The boats
and material have been very much improved.
16,983. Were the men at one time considerably in debt?-I don't
know if they were much in debt, but they did not have the same
class of boats, nor so good material, such as nets, and the like of
that. Their boats are much better now than they used to be.
16,984. Do the boats there belong to the men themselves?-Yes.
16,985. Do you know whether many of the men in that district are
now in debt to the curers or merchants?-A few of them may be
but they are not so generally.
16,986. Was there formerly a system there of settling at longer
intervals?-Yes. I think that generally they did not make a final
settlement with the local curers until the end of the season; but
there have been so many strangers going there within the last few
years, that it seems to have been adopted as a rule to [Page 437]
pay daily, or when the fishermen like to call for the money, which
is at least once a week.
16,987. I suppose the railway has made a difference in that
respect?-Yes; it has made a great change in the value of the fish.
16,988. Is the cod and haddock fishery prosecuted to great extent
at Anstruther and Pittenweem?-It is.
16,989. Is it prosecuted chiefly for the fresh market?-Yes,
principally.
16,990. Is it carried on with the same boats which are used in the
herring fishing?-No. I think they are generally a larger class of
boats-decked boats-that are used for that fishing. A number of
the fishermen go in the same boats which they use in the herring
fishing, but some of them have a class of boats in which they go
out to sea for two or three days, and these are decked and very
comfortable.
16,991. Do you buy any of these fish for curing?-Not generally;
but Mr. Methuen does at Anstruther and the other stations there.
He keeps an establishment at Anstruther.
16,992. Does he cure herrings only, or also cod and haddocks?-
He buys cod and ling, and sends them away fresh, I think, and he
buys a good number of haddocks and smokes them. Haddocks are
what he buys principally there.
16,993. How are these settled for?-I am not quite sure, but I think
it is once a week.
16,994. There is no yearly settlement?-No.
16,995. Do you know any reason why a settlement once a week or
at delivery should not be made in districts like Shetland or the
Lewis, which you know better?-No. I think the fishermen prefer
to get their money once a week, and the curers now like it as well
too. They find less trouble with that system, and the fishermen are
more independent and do not require advances as they did before.
16,996. Do you think that system of frequent payments has
enabled the fishermen to do without advances to the same extent
as they required them formerly?-I think so.
16,997. Would there be any practical difficulty in settling in that
way in remote and thinly inhabited districts, such as Shetland and
the Lewis, where the stations may be a long way from towns?-
There would be a difficulty, to a certain extent. One great
difficulty would be in getting cash daily, but they might perhaps
get it weekly. I think, in the western islands, perhaps once a week
might be adopted as a very good plan, if it could be managed, and
they could arrange to get their money from Stornoway.
16,998. The man might get an order to receive the money due to
him for his fish at the principal countinghouse of the merchant?-
Yes. The general system adopted with Mr. Methuen's boats, and
those of the other curers belonging to Wick, is, that they generally
agree so many boats belonging to the Lewis, and so many
belonging to Caithness, and they return to the Wick fishing after
leaving the Lewis; then at the end of the Wick fishing they are
settled with for both fishings.
16,999. Have you been in the habit of supplying boats to
fishermen?-When I was at Stornoway for Mr. Methuen, I
generally supplied them with nets and bark, and they got boats
in some cases too.
17,000. What kind of boats were these?-They got the Caithness
boats; but that is not so much the practice now. The fishermen
seem to get them from the boat-builders now, and make their own
arrangements for them.
17,001. Have you seen any of the Shetland boats?-Yes, I have
seen them at Wick. I think they generally have four oars.
17,002. Have you seen any of the six-oared boats?-Yes. I think
there are two or three classes of them. They have a small boat,
then a four-oared boat, and then the larger six-oared boat.
17,003. But they depend most on the six-oared boats now: have
you any knowledge of the cost of such boats?-There are very few
of the Shetland boats that come to Wick; but I have seen some of
the Orkney boats there, which I believe are very similar, and I
think a boat of that kind, with masts, sails, and oars complete,
would cost about £50.
17,004. Were these boats half-decked?-There was no deck on
them when I saw them. They were all open.
17,005. What was the size of them?-I would suppose about 24
feet keel.
17,006. However, you don't know much about the Shetland
boats?-No; it is the Orkney boats that I have seen coming to
Wick.
17,007. Do you purchase salt for curing your fish?-It is generally
supplied from Liverpool.
17,008. What is the usual price that is paid for salt for curing?-It
varies in price. Last year I think it would be about 12s. per ton in
Liverpool.
17,009. Have you been able to get salt in Liverpool for curing as
low as 7s. per ton?-No. I have never bought it, but I have an idea
about what it costs. It is generally from 9s. to 11s.; I never heard
of it being under 9s.
17,010. How do you take it up to the north?-By sailing vessels.
17,011. What is the freight?-We have paid 9s., and as low as 7s.
6d.; but about 8s. is the general thing to Burntisland. It is brought
from Liverpool round by the north of Scotland and up the Firth.
17,012. Do you think 10s. would be about the freight to
Shetland?-I would suppose so; but we generally get the
freights cheaper to Burntisland than they would be there, as
it is going to a loading port. Perhaps about 12s. would be a
fair freight to Lerwick, because the vessel has to come away in
ballast again.
17,013. What allowance would you make for wastage, if you were
calculating the cost of curing?-About 21/2 per cent. is the usual
thing; if there is more waste than that, then we charge the captain.
17,014. Have you ever made any estimate of the cost of curing a
ton of cod or ling?-No; but I would suppose that in Shetland it
would cost about £1 per ton to split them and cure them and dry
them. There is a great deal of work connected with it.
Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, CATHERINE BROWN, examined.
17,015. Have you been a knitter of Shetland goods for a long
time?-Yes, for about fifteen years.
17,016. Did you live in Lerwick at one time?-Yes.
17,017. Were you employed to knit a shawl for the Princess of
Wales?-Yes; a cloth or burnous.
17,018. Have you an appointment as knitter to Her Royal
Highness?-Yes.
17,019. I believe some of your shawls obtained high prizes at the
London Exhibition of 1870?-Yes.
17,020. Are you now going to begin business in Edinburgh?-I
think so.
17,021. Have your knitted for Mr. Robert Sinclair?-I have sold to
him. I have always been in the habit of knitting with my own wool
and selling my goods.
17,022. Have you never knitted with the merchants' wool at all?-
No.
17,023. Have you seen Mr. Sinclair within the last ten days?-Yes.
17,024. Are you aware that he and some other merchants in
Shetland desired that you should be examined before this
Commission?-I know that he wished me to be examined.
17,025. I have been asked by Mr. Sinclair to put certain questions
to you on the subject of your dealings with him. Do you know
whether, as a usual thing, the merchants in Lerwick pay higher or
lower prices for hosiery articles than you could get from private
individuals?-They pay lower prices.
17,026. Is that taking the price in goods?-I never sold for goods,
always for money.
17,027. Did you never do that from the very first?-I was in the
habit of selling to private individuals then.
17,028. Did you never sell for goods at all?-When I wished
goods, I exchanged my articles for them; but I got money
whenever I wanted it.
17,029. How did you succeed in obtaining cash for [Page 438]
your hosiery whenever you wished?-The merchants always
came to me and asked for the goods. I did not go to them.
17,030. But you were not always such a good knitter as you are
now. Did you not go through any apprenticeship?-Not with the
merchants.
17,031. Was the merchants' money price for the goods lower than
the money price which you got from private individuals?-Yes. I
always gave it to them a little lower, perhaps 1s. or 2s. or 3s. less
on a shawl, than I asked from a private individual.
17,032. Did you sell your shawls for a lower price to the
merchants in Lerwick than you sell them for to the merchants
in Edinburgh?-No. I sell them at the same price to the
merchants in Lerwick as to the merchants in Edinburgh.
17,033. Have you ever sold a shawl to a merchant in Edinburgh?-
Yes.
17,034. Have you not got more for it from him than you would
have got from a merchant in Lerwick?-That was some years ago.
17,035. Was Mr. White the merchant in Edinburgh to whom you
sold?-Yes.
17,036. Do you know whether knitters in Lerwick, who depend
entirely on knitting for their living, are able to get money for their
work?-I do not know about any person but myself.
17,037. Did you ever hear of lines or goods being sold by knitters
which they had got for their hosiery?-No, not lines. I have heard
of them selling their goods, but I could not say whether it was true
or not. I have not heard of that often.
17,038. When a merchant buys a fine shawl or a neck-tie or a lot
of veils from a knitter, do you know whether he sells them in the
south for a larger price than he pays?-I don't know anything
about that.
17,039. Have you ever bought shawls or veils in Edinburgh?-No.
17,040. Or priced them?-No.
17,041. Are the prices of goods in the Lerwick shops generally
higher or lower than the prices you pay here for such goods, for
instance, as cottons or petticoats-I am a stranger here, and I have
not bought anything yet, except a piece of velvet, and I paid the
same price for it here as I would have done in Lerwick.
Edinburgh, April 18, 1872, CHARLES FLEMING, examined.
17,042. What are you?-I am a draper to trade, and I am the buyer
in that department for Messrs. M'Laren, Son, & Co., High Street,
Edinburgh.
17,043. Is that a wholesale as well as a retail house?-Yes.
17,044. How many years' experience have you had in the
business?-Eighteen years. I have been two years in my
present position as buyer.
17,045. I suppose you are one of the largest buyers in that line
in Scotland?-I believe we are, for the retail trade; but we are
wholesale as well.
17,046. Do you buy for the wholesale trade, or only for the
retail?-I buy for both.
17,047. I show you a piece of half-bleached cotton: what is the
usual price of that as an article of retail trade?-It depends upon
the width. There are a number of different widths, but the usual
widths made are 29, 32, and 36 inches. It is also made 40 inches
and wider, but these are not usually sold.
17,048. Can you tell from the sample what the width has been?-
No.
17,049. What would be the proper retail price for the 29 inch
width?-I should say 21/2d.
17,050. Would that be the fair price in a country district?-I think
it would be a very fair price.
17,051. Would it not be legitimate to charge a somewhat higher
rate in a remote district of the Highlands?-I think not, for an
article such as this. That would be the outside stretch that it would
be worth at the present time for 29 inches.
17,052. Is there anything narrower than that?-I am not aware of
anything. That is the trade term for them; but I don't know that
they exactly measure the width which is named.
17,053. Would you be surprised to be asked 41/2d. a yard for
that?-I think it would be very much out of the way.
17,054. What would be a fair price for it if it were 32 inches
wide?-About 31/4d. a yard; and about 33/4d. for 36 inches.
17,055. In all these valuations, are you assuming that the article is
sold in a country district, and not in a large city establishment
where there is a rapid turnover and great competition?-Yes. I
think that usually very little difference is made on that class of
stuff, wherever it is sold.
17,056. Is it a very common sort of article?-It is the most
common thing of the kind that is made. It is generally used for
an inter-lining for different parts of ladies' dress, being put
between two other materials.
17,057. What would it be used for by working people in the
country?-It might be used for lining dress skirts, or such as that.
17,058. I show you another piece of half-bleached cotton: is that
also made of different widths?-Yes. The value of that, at 29
inches, would be 4d. a yard; at 32 inches, 51/4d.; and at 36 inches,
61/2d. It is made also in greater widths, but not usually sold, unless
for some special purpose.
17,059. Of what greater width is it made?-It is made in 40
inches, and 48 and 54.
17,060. Would the price rise in proportion to the widths in the
same ratio as in the three widths you have already mentioned?-
Yes.
17,061. But 36 inches is the widest that is commonly sold?-Yes.
17,062. Is that used by fishermen for making oil-cloth?-It may be
used for that purpose.
17,063. If used in that way, what width would most likely be
selected?-36 inches would be the best width for cutting out. It is
the most usual width made in this class of stuff for almost any
purpose. Although I am terming it 36 inches, it may measure less,
perhaps 341/2 or 35 inches; and the same proportion with the other widths.
17,064. For 36 inches wide, would 8d. a yard be too high a price
for that cotton?-I think it would be very dear at 8d. a yard, even
at the present price of cotton.
17,065. Was the price in January higher or lower?-It was lower
in January than now. There has been an advance of about 5 per
cent. on cotton goods since then, and there has been a difference of
10 per cent. since October last. Cotton goods were very steady all
last season until then.
17,066. I show you a piece of shirting: what value do you put upon
that in the same way?-It is usually made in two widths, 32 and 36
inches. Those, of course, are the same as calicoes; they don't
measure exactly what the makers term them, but they are known
as these widths. The 32 inches is the width principally used, and
this class of stuff is about 63/4d. at the present time. I daresay had
it been bought a couple of months ago it would have been 61/2d. In
the other width it would be about 1d. more.
17,067. Would 1s. a yard be a high price for that?-It would be a
very exorbitant price, in my judgement.
17,068. Would it be so in any part of the kingdom?-It would be
so in any part of the world, I should say, either in or out of the
kingdom. It would be a very extraordinary price to charge.
17,069. Is there no greater width than 36 inches?-Not in this
class of stuff, of this make. This is Glasgow-made stripe, and they
don't make them wider than 36. There is a Kirkcaldy stripe too,
but it is different class from this altogether.
17,070. Is that stuff used for making shirts for men?-That is what
it is principally used for. Country people also use it for what they
term short-gowns and children's dresses, and different things of
that kind; but its principal use is for working-men's shirts.
[Page 439]
INDEX.
ABERNETHY, Archibald (analysis of his evidence, p. 301), is
a shopkeeper at Whiteness in Tingwall, 12,251; deals in eggs,
butter, groceries, and soft goods, 12,252, 12,253; generally pays in
goods, but gives money often for eggs, 12,254; buys fish green,
and cures, 12,257; men prefer to have price of fish fixed at end of
season, 12,259.
ADIE, Thomas Mountford (analysis of his evidence, p. 138),
fish merchant at Voe (Olnafirth), 5593; as a rule, fishermen are
engaged to deliver all their fish, and take the current price at the
end of season, 5596; has once or twice made contracts to buy fish
at fixed price from men, and found that they were discontented if
afterwards the price of fish rose, and he was obliged to pay more
than he had agreed, 5598-5601; thinks the price, if fixed at
beginning of year, would be lower than they generally get at
present, 5604; under it no advances could be made to men, 5608;
buying of boats, 5609-5624; 3d. per cwt. more paid at Voe for fish
to men having their own boats, 5610-5612; most men have an
account at store, 5633; discount for cash payments, 5636; fishing
lines, 5640-5646; bad debts are no advantage to merchant, 5655;
men are now in great fear lest any change be made, 5657;
smuggled fish, 5663; bucht lines, 5664-5666; men not compelled
to take goods from store, 5679; fish the merchants' only security,
5685, 5686; price of meal, 5697-5700; curers have a very small
profit on fish, 5704; Faroe fishing, 5726; hosiery, 5741; is always
paid for in goods, 5742; there is no profit on it, 5743; does not
think knitters would take a less price in cash, 5749; beach boys,
5751; tacksman has no profit on rents, 5767.
ADIE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 210), son and
partner of T. M. Adie (p. 138), 8640; there is an arrangement that
when an indebted fisherman goes to another employer he is bound
to pay the debt incurred to a former employer, 8641; cost of
curing, 8660. (recalled, p. 213). Gives further evidence as to the
cost of curing fish, 8750.
ADVANCES of cash during season, 815, 1177, 5030, 8587,
9390, 9544, 9600, 9868, 10,249, 10,631, 10,940, 11,172, 11,977,
12,589, 13,162, 13,322, 13,882, 14,782, 15,574, 15,911.
for boats and boat hires, etc., 3623, 3839, 5206, 5357, 5609,
6507, 6724, 7208, 9092, 9856, 10,139, 10,572, 11,879, 12,295,
12,957, 13,270, 13,396, 14,109, 14,933, 15,053, 15,095, 16,794,
16,890, 16,999.
AITKEN, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 119),
fisherman, Eastshore, Dunrossness, 4801; and tenant of house,
4802; is bound by writing to fish for landlord, 4803; thinks
freedom in fishing would be an advantage, 4806; could get meal
cheaper than at store, 4835; wages fixed by landlord, 4853-4855;
must work for landlord because there is no one else to work for,
4855.
ALLOWANCES to indebted men, 12,641, 13,162, 13,179,
13,967.
ANDERSON, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 166),
fisherman at Hillyar, 6866; fishes for Mr. Laurence Smith, 6868;
previously fished for a number of other dealers, 6869; changed
employer frequently, because he got in debt and could not get
supplies, 6875, 6876.
ANDERSON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 224),
fisherman at Burravoe, 9271; formerly tenant and fisherman at
Lunna, 9272; was bound to fish for tacksman, 9275; fishes now for
Mr. Adie, 9284; deals generally with him, 9286; makes no
complaint as to prices, 9299.
ANDERSON, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 316),
fisherman and tenant in Skerries, 12,772, 12,773; bound to fish,
12,774; sells farm produce to curer, 12,778; has no wish for a
change, 12,781; dealers' prices too high, 12,785.
ANDERSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 158),
merchant and fish-curer at Hillswick, 6498; tacksman of estate of
Ollaberry, 6499; men engaged for fishing paid current price at end
of season, 6503; men having their own boats and being free from
debt paid 6d. per cwt. extra for fish, 6507; ling fishing, 6523; does
not think long settlements cause debt, 6537; does not think the
fixing of a price at the beginning of season would be an advantage
to the men, 6543; men under no obligation to deal at store, 6554;
men smuggle a good deal, 6564; buys cattle and farm produce,
6583; generally pays for them in cash, 6585; beach boys, 6602;
and curers paid at end of season, 6605; kelp, 6628-6640; paid
either in cash or goods, 6631; hosiery, 6641; generally paid in
goods, 6642, 6643; there is no profit on it, 6645; people generally
ask goods, but this may be because they understand it is the
custom to pay in kind, 6656; there would be no advantage in a
cash system, 6671-6674; home-spun tweed usually paid in cash,
6681-6688; tea often taken by knitters, 6696; never knew goods
exchanged for cash, 6697; lines, 6700; generally brought back by
original holder, 6701; there is no impediment to the opening of
other shops, 6707; is agent for Shipwrecked Mariners' Society,
6711; in the case of men losing a boat, would not stop the
compensation money to pay shop account, but if they were
indebted for the boat he would stop it, 6717-6722; boat-building,
6724; thinks a great boon to Shetland would be the introduction of
a land bill, as at present a tenant improving his farm is liable to be
ejected or have his rent raised at any moment, 6749; proprietors
are unwilling to give leases, 6751.
ANDERSON, John (recalled, p. 189). There is an agreement
amongst merchants, to protect them from attempts on the part of
men to escape payment of debts, that they shall not engage the
men without seeing that their debts are paid, 7776; dissents from
evidence of Rev. Mr. Sutherland (p. 179), 7796; and thinks the
people may be favourably compared with their equals in other
places for frugality, foresight, and moral virtues, 7797-7800; it is
not possible to introduce a more extensive system of winter
fishing, 7804.
ANDERSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 168),
fisherman at Hillswick, 6977; lives with his father, 6978; fishes for
Laurence Smith, 6979; settles yearly, 6980; deals at his shop,
6981; has pass-book, 6994; was a beach boy, 6999; when indebted,
considered himself bound to fish for dealer, 7010-7014; but his
supplies being stopped, went to another dealer, 7026.
ANDERSON, Mrs. Margery Manson or (analysis of her
evidence, p. 32), lives in Lerwick, 1648; knits with her own wool,
1649; previously for dealer, with his wool, 1650; paid in goods,
1652; could not get money, 1656; goods not worth the price put on
them, 1658; had pass-book, 1664-1670; sells now for goods and a
little money to dealer, 1674; would prefer to be paid in money,
1675; gets lines, 1679.
ANDERSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 67),
shopman to Robert Linklater, 3058; refers to evidence of Margaret
Tulloch (p. 29) and Mrs. Thomas Anderson (p. 32); work was
refused them because of their slowness in executing it, 3059; lines
not given, 3070, 3071; system of dealing, 3060-3076; does not sell
wool, 3087; there is very often no profit on hosiery, 3088-3097;
but on the whole there is a small profit, 3149; goods are charged
higher because of the present system, 3176, 3177; Shetland wool is
not sold, 3179.
ANDERSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 254), fishes
for Spence & Co., Haroldswick, 10,500; runs an account with
them, 10,501; formerly paid cash, 10,504; gets the same quality of
goods now, but pays more, 10,507; monthly payments might be
advantageous in good years, 10,512.
ARCUS, Mrs. Ann (analysis of her evidence, p. 33), living in
Lerwick, 1729; a dresser of shawls, 1729; sometimes knits, 1731;
dresses shawls for dealers and workers, 1738; occasionally
disposes of shawls for workers, 1746; generally paid in goods,
1754; thinks country girls do not require money, but knit to [Page
440] clothes, 1754, 1755; can always get money herself, 1759; but
does not know if others can, 1761, 1777; and gets lines, 1764; has
no pass-book, 1791; in summer sells sometimes to visitors, 1804,
1805; gets money in full, 1806, 1807; and prefers it, 1808-1810; if
paid in money, thinks so high a price would not be given, as
merchants have a profit on goods, and so can allow more when
they pay in kind, 1825; yet knitters prefer this, 1826; thinks the
workers should be grateful to the dealers, who have entirely
created a trade and found a mart for their goods throughout the
country, 1831.
BEACH Boys, hiring of, etc., 4367, 5000, 5070, 5086, 5101, 5241,
5751, 5907, 6602, 6999, 7533, 8792, 10,108, 10,283, 10,345,
12,295, 12,437, 12,808, 13,353, 14,086, 15,102.
BLANCE, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 221), fisherman at
Burravoe, also engaged in seal and whale fishing, 9136; tenant of
land under Mr. M'Queen, 9137; system of engagements and
settlements in whale fishing, 9147-9221; half-pay tickets, 9154.
BLANCE, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 137), fisherman at
Midgarth, 5542; tenant under trustees, 5543; under no obligation to
fish, 5544; deals at the stores of merchants for whom he fishes,
5547; when men are in debt they seldom get cash, 5552; considers
himself under obligation to fish when indebted, 5554; has no
pass-book, 5574; smuggling of fish, 5577-5592.
BLANCE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 149), fisherman at
Ollaberry, 6008; and tenant, 6009; fishes for landlord, 6011; but is
not bound, 6012; has been free for six years, 6013; goes to Faroe
fishing; does not know whether if he went to home fishing he
would be bound, 6026; believes that men generally are, 6028:
deals principally with merchant, 6057; always had advances of
money when he wishes, 6076; being indebted to merchant,
considers himself bound to fish for him, 6092, 6093; fishing lines
and bait, 6103; knitters, 6136; paid generally in goods, 6138-6147;
does not know whether money could be got, 6147-6150;
ejectment, 6155; never knew of ejectment for refusal to fish, 6160;
eggs, 6161-6166; freedom in sale of, 6181, 6182.
BLANCH, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 206), fisherman and
farmer near Brae, 8510; skipper in Faroe fishing, 8516; for Mr.
Adie, 8517; settlement generally yearly, 8518; men generally take
their supplies from merchant, 8519; never knew of men bound to
fish, 8528; thinks the present system favours the masters, as they
can fix the price of fish as they choose, and men do not know what
they are earning till the end of the season, 8531; Englishmen
fishing for Shetland curers have price fixed at the beginning of
season, 8539, 8541; the system of credit causes men to incur debt,
8564; thinks it would be a good plan for a certain part of the price
of fish to be paid on delivery, and the rest at settlement according
to current price, 8567; at home fishing thinks a man, unless
indebted, is not bound to fish for merchant, 8575; in selling
Shetland cloth always got cash if asked, 8576. (recalled). Gives
evidence as to the cost of curing fish, 8713; men have to supply
their own lines and fishing apparatus in Faroe smacks--thinks the
owner should, 8715.
BOATS and Boat Hires, purchase of and advances for (<see>
Advances, etc.).
BOLT, Mrs. Barbara (analysis of her evidence, p. 38), lives in
Lerwick, 1940; knits with her own wool and sells to dealer, 1941;
has no pass-book, 1942; is paid in goods, 1947; gets money when
she wishes, 1951; sometimes gets lines, 1955; can get wool for
goods or lines, 1955-1965.
BOLT, Mrs. Wilhelmina (analysis of her evidence, p. 38),
corroborates Mrs. Barbara Bolt (p. 38), 1969-1971; got money and
goods as she wished from merchants for hosiery, 1972.
BORTHWICK, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 32), lives in
Lerwick, and knits, 1608; for dealers, 1610; has no pass-book,
1611, 1612; is paid in goods, 1616; price is fixed by dealer, 1617;
seldom gets money, 1620-1623; sometimes has to sell goods to
obtain money, 1627; prefers to knit for money, 1630.
BROWN, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 437), has knitted
Shetland goods for about fifteen years, 17,015; and has
appointment as knitter to H.R.H the Princess of Wales, 17,018;
always sold hosiery in Lerwick for money, 17,026; and sold at a
price slightly lower, 17,031; has heard of women selling goods to
get money, 17,037.
BROWN, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 131), tenant under
Mr. Bruce of Sumburgh, and fishes for him, 5284; corroborates
evidence of William Goudie (p. 105), 5285; in consequence of a
report of him selling some fish to another merchant, 5287; his
house was put up to let by Mr. Bruce, 5288; on proving to Mr.
Bruce that the report was false he was allowed to remain, 5294;
meal dearer at store than at Lerwick, 5300.
BROWN, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 193), has a small
shop, 7957; at Brough in North Delting, 7958; deals in groceries,
7959; never is forbidden to do so, 7962; deals for cash, 7964;
fishes, and buys small fish from other men, 7964; cures fish, 7968;
does not think there is any restriction placed on the sale of any fish
by men, 7975; kelp, 7986; meal, 7999; thinks a ready money
system would be an advantage to all
BRUCE, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 186), schoolmaster
and inspector of poor, 7628; pauperism has neither increased
nor diminished in his experience, 7631; gives an account of
management of paupers, 7629-7656.
BRUCE, John, jun. (analysis of his evidence, p. 329), son of Mr.
Bruce, Sumburgh, 13,292 tacksman of property at Dunrossness.
Gives in paper stating that tenants on property managed by him
are free to go to sea, to the Greenland or Faroe fishings, and to
pursue any land occupation; but remaining at home fishing, are
expected to deliver their fish to him, payment at full market value
being rendered. This is a condition of holding their farms, and is
beneficial to them, as they must fish for some merchant; he gives
as good a price as any other, and besides has the most convenient
stations for delivery of fish. Keeps store for the convenience of
men, but not expected to deal there against their wishes. Prior to
1860 men fished as they pleased, and generally were unable to pay
their rents. The people are now in a much better state. Goods at
store are of the best quality, and not unreasonably priced, 13,293.
BRUCE, John James (analysis of his evidence, p. 74), shopman to
Mr. Sinclair, 3308; there is no profit on hosiery, 3312-3342; lines
are generally brought back by original owner, 3345; never knew an
instance of lines being sold or transferred, 3350; but has heard that
such things are done, 3355; under cash system workers would
actually get less value for their work, 3402; but there would be the
advantage of having money for provisions, 3409; and it might
cause knitters to work more carefully, and then there would be a
regular market, 3412.
-(recalled, p. 77). Gives evidence as to lines, 3445.
BURGESS, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 126), fisherman and
tenant at Hillwill, 5097; corroborates James Flawes (p. 121) and
others, 5098; beach boys, 5101; wages not paid until settlement,
5103; are bound to serve, 5105; men are free to deal anywhere,
5114; has no pass-book, 5117.
CATTLE, disposal of, etc., 942, 1295, 4751, 5352, 6583, 7228,
8130, 8849, 8870, 8944, 9127, 9489, 9686, 10,018, 10,071,
12,241, 12,346, 12,727, 12,758, 13,241.
-Marking and selling, 5278, 7235, 7600, 8135, 9690.
CHARACTER of Shetland people, 3623, 5981, 7797,
9382, 12,148, 13,807, 14,743, 14,757.
CHRISTIE, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 22), fisherman
and tenant at Burra, 1063; corroborates Walter Williamson (p.15)
and Peter Smith (p. 20), 1064; to fish and cure for themselves
would be advantageous to men, 1074; knitters, 1077; are
invariably paid in goods, 1078; wool supplied by dealer, 1084;
and price fixed by him, 1091.
CLOTH made by women, sale of, 6681, 8163, 8254, 8309,
8488, 8576.
CLUNAS, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 78), lives at
Unst, 3456; knits, 3451; for merchant, 3452, 3453; and sometimes
used her own wool, 3455; is paid in goods, 3458; money not given,
3459; sometimes spins wool, and believes she could get cash for
the worsted, 3486, 3494.
COD Fishing (home), 12,236, 12,468.
COLVIN, Gavin (analysis of his evidence, p. 28), fisherman in
Levenwick, 1382; corroborates John Leask (p. 25), 1392; goods at
Mouat's store very inferior, 1394; all produce was required to be
delivered up, 1397; can now get money if he requires it, 1405;
price of fish should be fixed beforehand, 1409.
CONDITION of people, 3623, 5235, 7470, 9709, 10,544.
COTTON at store, 9815, 9847, 10,511, 13,200, 13,408,
16,656, 17,047.
COUTTS, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 386), a provision
merchant in Lerwick for eleven years, 15,261; previously bought
in soft goods, 15,263; but gave it up as it caused him a great deal
of trouble, 15,264; and [Page 441] he sometimes had stolen goods
brought to him, etc., 15,266.
COUTTS, James (recalled, p. 387). Produces book showing his
transactions in brokery line, 15,332; paid for these goods in cash,
and people spent it frequently afterwards in his shop, 15,334; has
taken goods from knitters which they had got for hosiery, 15,336.
COUTTS, Mary (analysis of her evidence, p. 284), lives in
Scalloway, 11,585; she and her sister support themselves, father,
and aunt, by knitting, 11,587; knits with merchant's wool, 11,589;
is paid in tea and goods, 11,590; cannot get money, 11,591; except
the merest trifle, 11,593-11,596; barters tea for meal and potatoes,
11,601.
COWIE, Dr. Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 369), medical
practitioner in Lerwick, 14,692; is a native of Lerwick, 14,693; has
always lived there except when south for his education, 14,694; a
system of barter is almost universal, 14,696; knitters are paid in
goods to an extent that is unwholesome for themselves and the
community, 14,698; there is an utter disproportion in the food and
dress of knitters, who are often clothed in a gaudy, showy manner,
while almost starving, 14,699; dress that they wear, also, is
unsuited to the climate, 14,701; this is owing chiefly to the system
of truck, 14,703; there is no pawnbroker's shop in Shetland,
14,708; some old women who make a livelihood by hawking
goods for knitters from house to house, 14,709; believes
immorality prevails to a considerable extent in Shetland, but
cannot say certainly, 14,711; does not think professional
prostitution is greater in Lerwick than other seaport towns, 14,712;
but believes that occasional prostitution prevails to a greater
extent, 14,713; this may be accounted for by the system of barter,
as knitters have insufficient food and plenty of handsome clothes,
14,715; statistics show that illegitimacy is less in Shetland than in
many parts of Scotland, but believes that for several reasons the
Registrar-General's returns are not to be depended on, 14,717-
14,721; the system has also evil effects on the physical systems of
knitters, 14,773; and leads them to be very extravagant in dress,
14,725; it also causes them to use tea to an extent that is injurious
to their health, 14,726; oatmeal, fish, and potatoes, the principal
diet of a fisherman's family, 14,729; under the system of fishing,
men do not know whether they are in debt or not, 14,731; and this
causes them to be deficient in independence, and raises a deceitful,
time-serving disposition, and cripples enterprise, 14,739; people
are intelligent and pretty well-bred, but they want proper ambition,
and have no desire of improving their condition, 14,743; this is
caused by the system of barter, by the short leases of land, and the
want of encouragement to make improvements, 14,744; houses in
Shetland are very bad, 14,745; people are sober and steady,
14,757; thinks the system of long credit injurious to all concerned,
14,759.
CURER'S profit, 3623, 4990, 5704, (small) 9698.
CURING, Cost of, 8551, 8660, 8713, 8750, 8999, 9698, 10,109,
10,276, 10,344, 11,291, 11,422, 13,573, 15,240, 15,766, 15,962,
16,474, 17,007.
DALGLEISH, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 295), partner of
Nicholson & Co., Scalloway, 12,021; corroborates Mr. Charles
Nicholson (p. 293), 12,023.
DALZELL, Mrs. Barbara (analysis of her evidence, p. 388), lives
in Scalloway Road, Lerwick, 15,359; has knitted with her own and
merchant's wool, 15,360; mostly with her own, 15,361; is paid in
money and goods, 15,362; often entirely in money, 15,363;
knitters are generally paid in goods only, 15,364; money only
given for very fine articles, 15,865; best Shetland wool is very
difficult to procure, 15,397.
DAVIDSON, Donald (analysis of his evidence, p. 435), fish-curer
in Burntisland, 16,920; for a long time in Mr. Methuen's
employment, 16,921; his stations in Shetland given up two years
since, 16,925; Mr. Methuen agreed with Mr. Bruce for the delivery
of the fish, 16,934; and not directly with the men, 16,935; thinks a
system of cash payments could be introduced and worked in
Shetland, 16,965.
DEBTS, Transfer of, from one merchant to another, 7365, 7751,
7776, 8127, 8373, 8641, 9074, 9940,10,034,10,499, 10,977,
13,001, 14,137, 14,558, 16,010, 16,299, 16,566.
DEPOSITS in bank and hoarding, 3735, 4785, 10,709, 13,055,
13,726, 15,090, 15,223, 16,330, 16,513.
EDMONSTONE, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 258), factor
on Buness estate, and a farmer, 10,624; formerly a fish-merchant,
10,625; was the writer of letter (Q. 44,511) in Edinburgh evidence,
10,626; retains opinions stated therein, 10,627; thinks cash
advances during season should be compulsory, 10,631, fishing
and farming must be combined in Shetland, owing to the
unproductiveness of the winter fishing, 10,633; small boats best
for winter fishery, 10,634; fish-curers arrange payment of rents,
10,640; people are beginning to see the wisdom of making
improvements, 10,670; thinks the diet of people much better than
that of the same class in England and Scotland, 10,672; meal, fish,
potatoes, bread, and biscuits principal articles of diet, 10,679.
EGGS, Disposal of, etc., 949, 1297, 6161, 6483, 6853, 7074, 7448,
7538, 8870, 8878, 8967, 9908, 10,169, 11,435, 11,853, 12,038,
12,048, 12,218, 12,252, 12,295, 12,346, 12,695, 12,836, 12,928,
13,015, 13,043, 14,023.
EUNSON, Mrs. Ann (analysis of her evidence, p. 77), lives in
Lerwick, 3415; knits for dealer, 3418; paid in goods, and got
money when she required, 3421; sometimes sold shawls to
travelling merchants for money, 3430; sometimes got advances
of money from dealer even when there was not a balance in her
favour, 3444.
EUNSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 125), fisherman
and tenant at Waterbru, 5056; corroborates James Flawes (p. 121)
and George Goudie (p. 124), 5058, 5059; liberty money, 5060.
5061; beach boys, 5070, 5071.
EVICTION, 577,585, 722, 790, 900, 1012, 1327, 2994, 3025,
3625, 3659, 3755, 4274, 4385, 4486, 4510, 4727, 4777, 4935,
4956, 5069, 5288, 5314, 5320, 6155, 8910, 9227, 9238, 9423,
9636, 10,162, 12,323, 12,625, 12,693, 13,433, 14,816, 16,437.
EXTER, Janet (analysis of her evidence, p. 102), knitter in Satter,
4093; knits for Mr. Linklater, 4094; with his wool, 4095; no lines
or pass-book, 4099; could not get money, 4102; is poorly paid,
4101; in goods, 4102; would prefer money, if even a little less,
4103; knits now for Mr. Sinclair, and gets part payment in cash,
4111; formerly exchanged goods for meal, 4112.
FAIR ISLE, 4729, 4739, 5770, 13,056, 13,233, 13,326, p.
330, f.n.
FAMILY supplied by dealer in men's absence (Faroe fishing),
1172, 117S, 1188, 2955, 11,058.
FARM Produce, Disposal of, etc., 939, 949, 1294, 1300, 4673,
6383, 8870, 9873, 10,079, 10,169, 10,605, 12,778, 13,089, 13,814.
-Restrictions on sale of, 5271, 12,689.
FAROE Fishing, Statements as to, 876, 923, 1157, 1172, 1178,
1183, 1214, 2929, 5726, 6900, 7860, 8515, 9371, 10,912, 11,268,
11,718, 12,011, 12,211, 12,262, 12,267, 12,295, 12,407, 13,557,
13,603, 13,625, 14,080, 15,107, 15,211, 15,227, 15,706, 16,310,
16,428, 16,490.
FEAR of landlord and merchant, 572, 9670, 12,334, 13,421,
13,472.
FINES, 1044, 3755, 3623, 3917, 4483, 4534, 4751, 9241,
12,695, 12,698.
FLAUS, Mrs. Helen (analysis of her evidence, p. 38), lives in
Lerwick; dresses shawls for knitters, 1973; and knits, 1973;
confirms Mrs. Arcus (p. 33), 1974; sells for knitters to merchants,
and gets lines, 1985; or sees it marked in a book, 1986; can always
get money if she wishes it, but cannot say if it is the custom to give
it, 1998; believes that if hosiery were paid in money, a less price
would be given, 2004, 2012.
FLAWES, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 121), fisherman and
tenant at Rennesta, near Quendale, 4910; bound to fish, 4911; on
pain of expulsion, 4914; current price of fish fixed by four leading
merchants, 4919; other merchants vary, and sometimes give more,
4923-4931; knows cases of men being threatened for fishing to
other merchants, 4935-4947; liberty money, 4948; men not obliged
to deal at store, 4971; goods dearer there, 4978; thinks the price
given for fish is not sufficiently high, 4988; boys are bound to act
as beach boys, 5000, 5001.
FLEMING, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 438), draper and
buyer for Messrs. Maclaren, Son, & Co., High Street, Edinburgh,
17,042; has had eighteen years' experience--two as a buyer,
17,044; gives evidence as to value of samples of cotton shown
him, 17,047, 17,070.
FLOUR, Price of, etc., 9069, 9899, 11,847, 14,966, 15,043,
16,862.
FORDYCE, Mrs. John Winwick or (analysis of her evidence, p.
407), lives in Chromate Lane, Lerwick, 16,038; knits with her own
wool, 16,040; gets goods or money as she requires, 16,065; but the
custom is to pay in goods, 16,066.
FRASER, Rev. James (analysis of his evidence, p. 194), a
clergyman at Sullem for twenty-four years, 8007; is well
acquainted with the people, 8008; and the systems of payment
and credit purchases practised, 8009; thinks the effect of these on
the people is not very good, 8010; the large amount of bad debts in
[Page 442] merchant's books cause him to charge higher prices,
8011, 8012; the credit system is an annoyance to the merchant,
8016; and injurious to the independence of the people, 8022; does
not think fishing and farming could be separated, 8029; payment
of hosiery in cash would be no advantage, as a rule, to the knitters,
8035; goods given in exchange for hosiery dearer, 8040; thinks a
system of agricultural improvements would be the best thing for
Shetland, as men would then be able to supply their own meal, and
be more independent of curer, 8052; a system of leaseholding
necessary, 8067; price for fish fixed at the beginning of season
would not be an advantage to men, 8071; cannot see any
advantage in periodical advances during season, 8074; in letter
sent afterwards to Commissioner, insists again strongly on
agricultural improvements as the most necessary thing in Shetland,
p. 197.
GARRIOCH, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 213), shopkeeper
to Hay & Co. in Fetlar, 8762; price of meal, 8766; men are not
bound to fish, 8781; beach boys, 8792; whisky, 8833; kelp, 8838;
paid either in cash or goods, 8845; purchases cattle, 8849; pays in
cash, 8850.
GARRIOCK, Lawrence (analysis of his evidence, p. 335), is a
fisherman at Scatness, 13,454; lives on the property of Mr. Bruce
of Simbister; fishes for Hay & Co., but is not bound, 13,455; deals
sometimes at store, 13,457; and runs an account, 13,461; paid
balance in cash at settlement, 13,462; is satisfied with price and
quality of the goods, 13,465; has no passbook, 13,470; men are
afraid to give evidence before commissioner because of curers,
13,472; they are afraid of being ejected, 13,474; landlord takes
one-third of oil of whales captured by men, 13,478; thinks this
unfair, 13,479; landlord demands it, under threat of raising their
rents, 13,482.
GARRIOCK, Lewis F. U. (analysis of his evidence, p. 302),
partner of Garriock & Co., general merchants and fish-curers at
Reawick, 12,293; gives in a written statement, 12,295, stating that
the firm's general store is Reawick, and they have besides two
smaller shops: Messrs. Garriock last season cured the fish from ten
smacks at Faroe, etc., and five smaller ones at Orkney and home
fishing, to the gross value of £4600; there is no obligation on men
to deal at store; in bad seasons merchants lose heavily by bad
debts; merchants would greatly prefer a cash system, with payment
on delivery, but such a system would lead to fixed wages; men
curing their own fish are free in selling. It is the exception, and not
the rule, for men to be indebted; never knew liberty money paid,
12,307; tenants are never interfered with in sale of hosiery, cattle,
or farm produce, 12,346; nor bound to deal at store, 12,347; Burra
men generally go to the Faroe fishing, 12,362; not to avoid the
restrictions laid on the ling fishing, 12,365; they are bound by their
leases to deliver fish to Messrs. Hay, 12,367; Messrs. Garriock, at
one time issued a circular at Foula, stating that they wished to
ascertain the views of the people as to whether they wished to cure
their own fish, stating at the same time that if they did, Messrs.
Garriock's store would be discontinued, 12,380; the men
unanimously stated they did not wish such conditions, 12,381; men
prefer to bring their fish to the principal merchant, because he can
command the largest market, and therefore give the best price,
12,400; young men going to the Faroe fishing require to have their
outfit on credit, 12,407; in the Faroe fishing the men and masters
are actually joint-adventurers, only the merchant takes all the risk,
12,418, 12,419; in home cod fishing the men are settled with in the
same manner as the Faroe fishermen, 12,468, 12,472; the winter
fishing could not be much increased, 12,478; long-line fishing
from the bank would be impracticable in winter, 12,490;
Greenland fishing, 12,506; was formerly a nursery for the
merchant service, but now young men do not go, as the Board of
Trade regulations prevent them from getting outfit on credit,
12,511, 12,512; large advances are made in bad season to men,
12,547; men usually continue to fish until their debt is paid off,
12,549; the system of fishing on shares is the best, 12,608;
believes men would refuse to adopt weekly payments, 12,610.
GARRIOCK, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 385), agent in
Lerwick, 15,209; sells fishing materials, 15,210; is engaged only in
the Faroe fishing, 15,211; men deal with certain other merchants
for goods which be guarantees, 15,212; and the amount of their
account is deducted at settlement, 15,214; occasionally receives a
commission, 15,215; many men are not in a position to require
advances, but all take them, 15,223; in the Faroe trade, merchants
often have to give the men a price as high or even higher than they
themselves get, 15,227.
GARRIOCK, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 411), lives in
Sandsting parish, 16,216; serves in Naval Reserve in Lerwick,
16,217; was bred a seaman, 16,218; has principally gone to
Greenland and Davis Straits, 16,219; has shipped from various
agents, 16,222; always got his outfit from agent with whom he
served, 16,224; and supplies for his family, 16,225; always got
cash if he asked for it, 16,229; at settlement agent sometimes
attends at the Custom-house to receive payment of his account,
and at other times the men go down to his shop, and settle it after
they have been paid, 16,239; never knew an agent refuse to give
money, 16,243; men may buy their outfits where they please,
16,270; has bought his from a dealer other than the one he engaged
with, 16,272; an impression exists that indebted men have the best
chance of being engaged--cannot say if it is true, 16,280, 16,281;
at the end of one year he had a balance against him--he sailed next
year under another merchant, and found that the account had been
transferred to the new agent's books, 16,299.
GATHERER, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 391), is collector
of customs at Lerwick; strongly condemns the truck system,
15,866; before 1867 wages of men from Greenland fishery were
seldom paid at the Customhouse, 15,871; and in almost every case
the men ran large accounts, 15,872; this system he believes was
actually illegal, 15,881; and was only carried on because the
agents desired a profit on the men's supplies, 15,885; since 1867
men have received full payment in cash at the Custom-house,
15,892; but there is much delay in payment, 15,893; does not
believe this arises so much from the men's reluctance (15,894), as
the agent's unwillingness to have a settlement, 15,896; though the
regulations are outwardly observed, the agents still continue to
have a virtual security for their accounts, and agents admit that
their main inducement to accept the agency is the profit to be got
on supplies to the men, 15,898; thinks young men could get their
outfits without the help of the agents, 15,910; as any merchant
would give a seaman credit if he knew the agent did not enjoy a
monopoly of giving supplies, 15,914.
GAUNSON, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 215), fisherman
in Fetlar and tenant of land, 8861; does not know if men in Fetlar
are at liberty to fish--gets a good price from Messrs. Hay, and
never inquired, 8862; generally has a balance in his favour at the
end of the season, 8869; always got money or goods as he wanted,
8869; sells farm produce and cattle as he pleases, 8872, 8874;
goods at store are good and reasonable, 8887; does not think men
are bound to fish, 8894; hosiery, 8896.
GEORGESON, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 295),
merchant at Bayhall in the parish of Walls, 12,026; for
twenty-seven years, 12,027; principally deals with fishermen and
farmers for ready money, 12,028; no men are bound to fish for
him--he supplies his fishers with goods, and settles yearly, 12,029;
does not do much barter, 12,037; eggs looked on as money,
12,038; never pays for hosiery in cash, 12,039; there is no profit,
and sometimes a loss on it, 12,041; men commonly cure their own
fish, 12,056; and sell them as they choose, 12,057; but are
expected to take them to proprietor, 12,058; could not get men to
fish for him, because they considered themselves tied to landlord,
12,080; in ling fishing the price was, thirty years since, fixed at the
beginning of the season, but the practice died out, 12,090; at that
time men were all free, 12,091; thinks the price of green fish
should be fixed at the beginning of season, 12,104; it is an
understanding amongst men that they shall buy their goods where
they sell their fish, 12,112; men curing for themselves are more to
be relied on as customers at his shop, and are more persevering,
12,135; people in Shetland are very temperate, 12,148.
GEORGESON, Ross (analysis of his evidence, p. 412), is skipper
of a Faroe smack, lives in Scalloway, 16,310; has gone to Faroe
fishing for 15 or 16 years, 16,312; lately in the employment of Mr.
Leask, 16,311; has always had an account with Mr. Leask when in
his smacks, 16,314; gets the balance that is due in cash, 16,321;
and advances throughout year, 16,322; would get payment in cash
in full if he wished it, 16,328; banks his money with Mr. Leask,
16,330; never knew of men not taking goods from agent, 16,340.
GIFFORD, Francis (analysis of his evidence, p. 391), seaman in
Bressay, 15,488; goes to sealing and whaling, 15,489; under
various agents, 15,490; is now paid at the Custom-house, 15,491;
previously settled with agent at his shop, 15,492; got balance
sometimes in cash, 15,500; has his account read [Page 443] over
to him now before going to the Custom-house, and on leaving pays
it, 15,515, 15,516; thinks agents like to re-engage men who are
indebted to them, 15,222.
GIFFORD, Mrs. Margaret Smith or (analysis of her evidence, p.
410), lives in Lerwick, 16,203; knits haps, 16,204; for Mr. Sinclair,
16,205; sold the last for 6s. in goods, 16,209; in buying articles
occasionally for cash, has found no difference in prices, 16,214.
GIFFORD, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 197), is factor on
the estate of Busta, 8077; the largest in Shetland, 8078; very few
tenants have leases, 8083; they are free to fish, 8084; there is no
opposition to the opening of shops, 8097; knows of no
arrangement by which merchants become bound for the debts of
men on hiring them, 8126; but there was one formerly, 8127; sales
of cattle, 8130-8134; marking and selling of cattle for debt, 8135;
not common, but is practised, 8136; believes short settlements
would be beneficial to the character of the people, 8147; but does
not think they would be practicable, 8149; the payment of hosiery
in goods is a bad system, 8156.
GILBERTSON, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 230),
fisherman and tenant at Harra, Mid Yell, 9553; is free to fish,
9555; generally deals with merchant for whom he fishes, 9557; in
some cases payment at an earlier time in the season would be an
advantage, 9569; never knew fish-curer refuse money for payment
of rent, 9572; thinks weekly payment would be an advantage, as
they would keep men from incurring debt, and enable them to go
to the best market, 9579; goods are dearer at merchant's store,
9583.
GILBERTSON, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 111), is a
fisherman at Dunrossness, 4497; corroborates Wm. Goudie (p.
105), 4502; although a lodger with his brother-in-law, is bound
to fish for landlord, 4508; because his brother-in-law would be
warned if he did not, 4509; if at liberty he could make a larger
profit, 4516, 4517; prices at the store are higher, 4542.
-(recalled, p. 117). Was at Fair Isle three weeks previously, 4729;
and heard great complaints there of the high prices charged at the
store, 4734.
GILBERTSON, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 333), sailor
and post-office keeper at Virkie, near Sumburgh, 13,403; men in
neighbourhood are bound to fish for tacksmen, and most of them
deal at store, 13,404; they are not compelled, unless by want of
cash, 13,405; has purchased goods at store, 13,407; quality
variable, prices higher than at other places, 13,408; men are afraid
to give evidence before commissioner, 13,421; their principal
complaints are that the settlement is made too late in the season,
and that they have not liberty, 13,425; men 43 years ago were
bound to fish, and the fish were so badly managed that they only
got about 3s. 11d. per cwt. for them--men were then freed on
payment of 15s. per head of liberty money, 13,430; in 1860 men
were again bound, 13,431.
GOODLAD, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 414), is a
seaman in Lerwick, 16,389; requires to deal with sealing and
whaling agent, as his half-pay notes are not sufficient to maintain
his family, and no one but the agent will give him credit, 16,390;
has endeavoured to obtain credit from other dealers, 16,394; and
has generally been refused, 16,395; and told that he should take his
goods from the agent from whom he got his ship, 16,405; men
generally deal with agent if they think his goods are cheap and
good; but if not, they take advances and buy elsewhere, 16,413;
looks over his account with merchant before going to the
Custom-house for payment, and settles on coming back, 16,417,
16,418.
GOODLAD, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 24), fisherman in
Burra, and tenant, 1179; corroborates previous witnesses, 1181,
1182; goes to Faroe fishing, 1183; his family is supplied by his
agent in his absence, 1188; but cannot easily get money, 1191;
knitting, 1201; paid in goods, 1202; knitters cannot get money,
1202-1204; the people are so poor that merchants have complete
power over them, 1206; Faroe fishing system, 1214-1217.
GOUDIE, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 124), fisherman and
tenant at Garth, 5032; corroborates James Flawes (p.121), 5034;
meal, 5044; is dearer at store than elsewhere, 5045; tobacco also
dearer, 5053.
GOUDIE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 105), fisherman at
Toab, 4255; obliged to fish for landlord, 4256; never knew of fines
being imposed, 4274; no obligation as to any produce other than
fish, 4279, 4280; price is fixed at settlement, 4283; is not bound to
deal with merchant, but is compelled by the present system, 4298,
4299; the quality of store articles is good, but they are dear, 4313-
4317; price of meal, 4316-4332; never had a pass-book, 4337;
under the present system men have an advantage in bad seasons,
4363; boys are obliged to act as beach boys, 4367-4369; whales
driven ashore by men, 4405; complains that a third of the oil is
appropriated by the landlord, 4406; thinks the men should have
liberty and leases of their lands, 4413, 4414; and that it would
benefit men to let them cure for themselves, 4424.
GRAY, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 253), mason at
Bailiasta, 10,412; worked formerly in chromate of iron quarries,
10,413; wages paid in cash, 10,419; has heard of men getting lines,
10,424; does not know what for, 10,426-10,428.
GRAY, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 262), is a fisherman to
Mr. Sandison, 10,751; at Snarravoe, 10,752; but for his assistance,
would have been starved in two bad seasons, 10,753; gets cash
when he asks it, but cannot ask much, as he is indebted, 10,763,
10,764.
GREEN, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 145), is a
boat-skipper, 5845; fishes at Stenness, 5846; delivers fish to
dealer, 5847; corroborates the evidence of Mr. Adie (p. 138), 5850,
5851; does not think a shorter settlement would be an advantage,
5853; deals at merchant's store, 5856; goods not dearer than at
other shops, 5862-5864.
GREIG, Clementina (analysis of her evidence, p. 283), lives at
Braehead, Scalloway, with her sister, 11,527; has supported herself
by knitting for a very long time, 11,529; never got any money for
hosiery, except in sales to visitors, 11,531; always uses her own
wool, 11,532; merchants pay insufficient prices, 11,533; even in a
great emergency could not get money from merchant, 11,535;
merchant will only sell worsted for money, 11,545; has offered to
take a lower price for hosiery in money, but could not get it,
11,555; women occasionally exchange goods for provisions,
11,559.
GREIG, David (analysis of his evidence, p. 170), is manager
for Hay & Co. at North Roe, 7100; fishermen hold their land on
the understanding that they fish for dealer, 7111; tenants fishing
for other curers not punished, 7119; never knew a man leave
employment because of being indebted, 7167; kelp, 7176-7179;
purchase of boats, 7208-7211; winter fishing, 7212-7227; cattle,
7228; marking of cattle for debt, 7235-7238; sales of cattle, 7248;
are conducted on perfectly fair principles, 7253-7255; increase of
paupers, 7272.
GRIERSON, Andrew John (analysis of his evidence, p. 379), is
proprietor of the estate of Quendale, 15,048; and fish-curer for
eleven years, 15,049; Mr. Ogilvy Jamieson keeps his shop at
Quendale for supply of fishermen and neighbours, 15,050; hires
no boats--men have their own, 15,053; tenants in Sandsting are
perfectly free, so long as they pay their rents, 15,060; men at
Quendale hold their ground under obligation to fish, 15,061; they
are satisfied, 15,062; thinks that it is beneficial for tenants if the
landlord is a good business man, 15,064; rents would be raised if
men were not bound to deliver their fish, 15,065; men salting their
own fish would turn out a useless and inferior article, and would
still depend for supplies and for a market upon the merchant, and it
would only encourage a system of dishonesty, 15,068; men having
liberty are generally more deeply in debt than others, 15,071; a
ready money system would not keep them out of debt, 15,078; if
cash payment for fish were enforced by law, men would likely
wish to revert to the old system, 15,081; men will not stick to a
bargain, 15,082; men are not so poor as represented, and often
have deposits in banks, 15,090; has sometimes exacted liberty
money, 15,100; expects sons of tenants to serve on beach, 15,102;
cannot understand how small dealers can give a price for fish
higher than the current one, 15,103; fishermen are very difficult to
deal with, 15,106.
HALCROW, Jane (analysis of her evidence, p. 103), lives in
Sandwick, 4166; knits for Mr. R. Linklater with his wool, 4167; is
paid in goods, 4168; once asked but never got money, 4169, 4170
she could get goods cheaper at other houses, 4173-4186.
HALCROW, Jane (analysis of her evidence, p. 178), lives at
Hillswick with her mother, 7418; who is a widow, 7419; and.
tenant of land, 7420; knits, 7425; is paid generally in goods, 7430;
gets a little money and stamps, 7431; would prefer, but never
asked, payment in cash, 7436; eggs, 7448; are paid for in cash if
asked, 7449; tea, 7452.
HALCROW, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 324), fisherman at
Levenwick and tenant under Mr. Bruce,. 13,080; formerly bound
to fish for Robert Mouat, 13,082; the articles at his store were bad
and overpriced, 13,085; most men were bound to deal with him,
13,088; and to take all their farm produce to him, 13,089; had to
deal because they could not get money, 13,090; he gave money for
cattle but very seldom otherwise, 13,091 - [Page 444] 13,093; at
settlement he would not pay money, 13,102; paid rent to Mouat
two years in advance, and when he failed had to pay it again, 13,105.
HALCROW, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 392), seaman,
15,546; goes on sealing and whaling voyages, 15,547; generally
gets his outfit from the agent he engages with, 15,549; on one
occasion could not get balance and an allowance from the
Shipwrecked Mariners' Fund in cash, 15,552-15,568; corroborates
Francis Gifford (p. 391), 15,585; men indebted get a ship more
readily, 15,587.
HALCROW, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 115), fisherman
and tenant at Dunrossness, 4646; is bound to deliver his fish to
landlord, 4647; corroborates William Goudie (p. 105), 4647-4649;
knitting--thinks that to some knitters payment in cash would be an
advantage, while to others goods are better, 4650; when new
tacksman came to Dunrossness, notice was given by a bill in a
public place that men were bound to fish for him, and would be
removed if they did not, 4559, 4560; goods are somewhat dearer at
fish-curer's store, 4662-4668; but there is no obligation to deal
there, 4671; and men have freedom in disposing of their farm
stock, 4673-4683; short warning is a great hardship, 4688; does
not think payment for fish on delivery would be an advantage
except to young men, 4692; meal is dearer at store than elsewhere,
4706-4718.
HARCUS, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 288), is a small
merchant in Scalloway, 11,782; deals with fishermen, but does not
buy fish, 11,783; does not give credit, 11,784; his trade would be
improved by the introduction of a cash system, 11,786; his weekly
drawings are larger at settlement time, 11,794; does not think
weekly or monthly payments would be practicable, 11,797; buys
lobsters and oysters, and pays in cash, 11,800-11,803; hosiery is a
bad speculation, 11,824; has tried the plan of giving meal for it,
and found he had no profit, 11,824; hosiery should be paid in cash,
11,826; settlements in Shetland take a long time, owing to the
men's ignorance of arithmetic, 11,833-11,836; when whales are
drawn ashore by the men, one-third of the oil is taken by the
landlord--thinks this unfair, 11,856-11,860. In letter afterwards
sent to commissioner, says (p. 290) that he is in favour of short
settlements, even if for no other reason than that they would
benefit his trade; but thinks them impracticable at present owing to
the distance of the fishing grounds from the curers' headquarters,
and time would be lost which the crews could not afford to lose.
The ignorance of men in arithmetic would also be a hindrance.
HARPER, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 252), is a fisherman
to Spence & Co. at Norwick, 10,384; and tenant, 10,385; two
prices are charged at store for cash and credit, 10,393, 10,394;
was a skipper under another dealer formerly, and changed his
employment because he was made to believe that he was obliged
to work for his landlord, 10,402; finds now that he was not bound
by his lease, 10,402; but was threatened indirectly at the time,
10,405.
HARPER, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 113), is a fisherman at
Lingord, 4573; and tenant of land, 4574; is bound to deliver his
fish, 4575; corroborates William Goudie (p. 105), Laurence Smith
(p. 110), and Henry Gilbertson (p. 111), 4576, 4577; men would
like liberty to cure their own fish, 4584; thinks they would make a
larger profit, 4588-4603; states that men are obliged to work for
landlord three days in summer, three in harvest, and three in
spring, in all nine days annually, without receiving either pay or
victual, 4605.
HARRISON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 187), is a
merchant at Urrafirth, Hillswick, 7657; deals in groceries, 7661;
and cotton, 7662; had some difficulty in obtaining leave to open a
shop, 7664; does a small business in curing and drying fish, 7673;
and has shop to supply men, 7675; fish-merchants commonly take
over the debts of men who leave other employers to come to them,
7751.
HARRISON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 415), is a merchant
in Lerwick, and partner of Harrison & Son, 16,427; has had long
experience in the Faroe fishing business, 16,428; and a little of
the ling fishing, 16,429; his firm has no connection with the
management of any land or property, 16,430; men who wished to
engage with him have been prevented by their landlords or
tacksmen, 16,433; men are bound entirely to landlord for both
home and Faroe fishings, and young men dare not disobey the
landlord, because their parents would be ejected if they did,
16,437; men free of debt and with money are bound equally with
indebted men, 16,440; believes that he and his firm have been the
most successful owners of fishing vessels in the Faroe trade, and
that this is because all the men they employ are free, 16,445;
indebted men are not the best fishermen, 16,448; it is not
advantageous for a merchant to have a great number of debtors,
16,449; the principal evil of Shetland is the system of land tenure,
by which no man has a lease, 16,461; and which binds men to fish,
16,463; thinks fish should be paid for on delivery, at the market
price, 16,467; the letting of beaches is not legal, 16,471; the
introduction of a cash system might cause difficulty at first, but
the result would be a great increase in the fisheries, and the
emancipation of the men, 16,477; Shetland fishermen have a great
advantage in possessing pieces of ground which support them
for at least six months per year, 16,478; were cash payments
introduced, men would have much more facility in getting goods
at the lowest possible price, 16,481; men have a fear that the
introduction of a cash system would deprive them of the means of
support in a bad season, 16,482; and this very probably kept men
from coming forward to give evidence, 16,483; thinks that so long
as landlords and tacksmen are engaged in the fishery, any system
of cash payments will do little good, 16,489; in the Faroe trade
believes that the owners would agree to a settlement at the end
of each voyage, but that the men would not, 16,493; and that a
settlement at the end of the season is an advantage to them,
16,494; men invariably take a part, at least, of their supplies from
the curer who employs them, 16,506; they have no alternative
unless they have cash, and men even with it generally take their
supplies from the merchant, 16,507.
HARRISON, William B. M. (analysis of his evidence, p. 395), is
a partner of Harrison & Sons, 15,705; engaged extensively in the
Faroe fishing trade, 15,706; terms of agreement in that fishery,
15,707; men mostly deal at shop, 15,720; there are very few who
do not have a balance to receive at settlement, 15,721; men who
have money prefer to take goods on credit, 15,724; men in home
fishing are not allowed credit above a certain sum, 15,732; the
introduction of a cash system would be an advantage more to the
curers than to men, 15,745; but there would be no difficulty in
working it after it was once fairly introduced, 15,749; would pay
men weekly in full according to the market, 15,751; men have
been asked to agree to such an arrangement, but will not, 15,752;
curer would not be able to make any advances in bad seasons,
15,760; does not think a system of partial payment on delivery and
a yearly settlement of the remainder of the price would be fair for
the curer, 15,762; curers are paid entirely in cash, 15,770; are not
given credit 15,771; this plan is not practised by other agents,
15,772.
HAY, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 132), fisherman at Firth,
about a mile from Mossbank, 5335; and tenant, 5336; fishes for
Mr. Adie in ling fishing, 5337; paid current rate at the end of the
season, 5339; settlement at Martinmas, 5341; Mr. Adie's nearest
store is 71/2 miles distant, 4344; generally goes there for his goods,
not because he is bound to do so, 4345; but simply because it has
been his custom, 4346; never refused advances of cash, 5372;
would prefer to have a price fixed at the beginning of the season,
5377.
HAY, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 255), formerly a
merchant at Haroldswick, is now a farmer, 10,519; cured fish,
10,520; preferred a ready money business, 10,522; found it very
difficult to deal so because of the general custom, 10,526; believes
if once started it would be a benefit, 10,527; monthly payments
would make men more independent, 10,528; thinks the condition
of the people much improved lately, 10,544; and men are generally
free to fish now, 10,551.
HENDERSON, Isabella (analysis of her evidence, p. 285), lives
in Scalloway with her father and sister, 11,624; she and her sister
support the family by knitting, 11,626; sells veils to merchants
for goods, 11,631; cannot get money, 11,634; has often had to
exchange goods for provisions, or sell lines, 11,637.
HENDERSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 136), fisherman
at Mossbank, 5502; not bound to fish unless going to the Skerries,
5504; fishes for Mr. Pole, 5505; deals very little at his store, 5507;
is not obliged to go there, 5509; goods are rather dearer there,
5513; would like a system of payment on delivery, 5532.
HENDERSON, Magnus (analysis of his evidence, p. 239), is a
small proprietor near Haroldswick, 9918; once engaged in fishing,
9920; men generally fish for landlord, 9924; fishermen generally
deal with merchant, 9930; but are not compelled, 9931; debts are
very often transferred to the books of new employers, 9940; cash
payments would benefit some men, not others, 9945; thinks the
fishermen would not be much in favour of having a price fixed at
the beginning of the season, 9951; does not think they would agree
to [Page 445] weekly wages, 9952; a ready money system would
be an improvement, 9974.
HENDERSON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 315), is a
fisherman and farmer in Skerries, 12,732; and bound to fish for
Mr. Adie, 12,734; was told so by landlord's agent, 12,736; deals
at the landlord's store and settles yearly, 12,739; gets money when
he wishes, 12,740; may deal elsewhere if he has money, 12,742;
would prefer liberty in fishing, 12,750; goods are dearer at
Skerries than Lerwick, 12,756; cattle are generally sold to
landlord, 12,758.
HENDERSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 318), is a son
of Gavin Henderson, merchant at Scousburgh, Dunrossness,
12,831; and manages his business, 12,832; deals in drapery,
groceries, ironmongery, coal, timber, etc., 12,835; deals a little in
hosiery and eggs, 12,836; buys fish, principally in winter, 12,839;
he gives men credit for goods, but does not like to do so, as fish is
the only security they can give, and they are bound or engaged to
fish for others, 12,856-12,859; he generally pays winter fishing in
cash on delivery, 12,879; or gives an I.O.U., or puts the amount
to their account, 12,881; the price of summer fishing should be
fixed at the beginning of the season, or from time to time,
12,885-12,887; but weekly payments should not be made, 12,888;
there is not much fish smuggled, 12,908; buys hosiery for cash,
12,913; knitters are willing to take a lower price in cash, 12,915;
goods bartered by merchants to knitters are very much overpriced,
12,917; eggs paid in goods or cash as wished, 12,928.
-(recalled, p. 332). Explains, with reference to statement that in
buying fish he paid for it on delivery, that in some cases accounts
are settled annually at the end of the winter or spring fishings,
13,340.
HERRING Fishery, 879, 981, 1002, 1135, 3880, 8154, 8605,
8630, 10,336, 10,563, 14,108, 15,194, 15,740, 16,945.
HOME Fishing, 1208, 5594, 6901, 6940, 10,512, 10,912,
11,909.
HOSIERY, Statements as to the sale of, 71, 221,306, 368, 764,
898, 1077, 1084, 1201, 1366, 1420, 1476, 1562, 1608, 1648, 1698,
1729, 1848, 1902, 1941, 1969, 1973, 2030, 2075, 2120, 2370,
2667, 2770, 2824, 2906, 3059, 3215, 3246, 3310, 3418, 3445,
3451, 3497, 3568, 3612, 3900, 4094, 4140, 4167, 4201, 4650,
5093, 5176, 5741, 5962, 6004, 6136, 6297, 6342, 6444, 6641,
6852, 7291, 7425, 8033, 8156, 8163, 8254, 8309, 8488, 8896,
8971, 9052, 9401, 9547, 9714, 9731, 9793, 10,182, 10,306,
10,449, 11,227, 11,463, 11,529, 11,564, 11,587, 11,626, 11,672,
11,684, 11,757, 11,824, 11,895, 11,997, 12,038, 12,217, 12,295,
12,346, 12,836, 12,913, 12,963, 13,814, 14,036, 14,281, 14,291,
14,697, 15,335, 15,360, 15,785, 15,921, 16,010, 16,040, 16,070,
16,084, 16,094, 16,128, 16,130, 16,136, 16,204, 16,657, 16,658.
16,660, 17,015.
-No profit on, 2199, 2523, 2758, 2793, 2842, 2921, 3088, 3312,
3584, 3900, 5743, 6645, 7314, 9402, 11,824, 12,041, 12,463,
12,923,16,658.
-Payment of, in goods, and complaints as to, 81, 160, 229, 238,
352, 355, 377, 764, 1078, 1174, 1202, 1370, 1439, 1480, 1522,
1586, 1616, 1652, 1704, 1754, 1855, 1947, 2127, 2671, 2771,
2827, 3458, 3501, 3575, 4102, 4142, 4168, 4206, 5093, 5193,
5742, 6138, 6346, 6448, 6642, 6854, 7294, 7430, 8156, 8314,
9549, 9746, 9797, 10,200, 10,308, 11,227, 11,464, 11,531, 11,590,
11,631, 11,674, 11,898, 12,038, 14,039, 15,364, 15,786, 16,066,
16,097, 16,657, 16,660.
-Money obtained for, 8, 312, 316, 1566, 1674, 1708, 1759, 1856,
1906, 1951, 1972, 1998, 2040, 2079, 2373, 3421, 4111, 3593,
11,688, 12,913, 15,363, 16,065, 16,080, 17,026.
-Payment in cash preferred, 29, 1581, 1630, 1675, 1809, 1924,
3511, 4103, 4173, 4210, 6006, 7437, 11,826, 16,103.
-Price fixed by merchant, 9, 421, 1091, 1440, 1617.
HOUSTON, John S. (analysis of his evidence, p. 233), is parochial
schoolmaster at North Yell, 9653; fishermen are suspicious that
merchants do not give them a sufficiently high price, 9670; does
not think justifiably, 9673; does not see that men would be
benefited by any alterations in present system of payment for fish,
9676; settlement should be earlier, 9679, 9680; but thinks
fishermen would be dissatisfied, 9682; marking and sale of cattle
for debt is still practised, 9690; fish-curer have very little profit,
9698; the condition of Shetland is much improved, 9709; the
present system of hosiery dealings is bad, 9714; high price is
charged for goods, 9715.
HUGHSON, Hugh (analysis of his evidence, p. 231), is a merchant
at Gossaburgh, 9585; cures a few fish, 9586; buys for ready
money, 9587; thinks a ready money system would be an
advantage, 9592; long credit is a great evil, 9596; but a cash
system might be bad for poor men, 9599; advances are necessary,
9600.
HUGHSON, Mrs. Mary (analysis of her evidence, p. 155), wife
of fisherman and tenant of land in Hillswick, 6338; her husband is
also a labourer, 6340; hosiery is always paid in goods, 6346; never
asked cash, 6347; kelp, 6353; paid in goods, 6371.
HUMPHRAY, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 316), is
a fisherman in Skerries, 12,797; lives with his father, who is a
tenant, 12,798; fishes for Mr. Adie, 12,799; men are obliged to fish
for him, 12,800; there is a merchant in Skerries who would give a
higher price for fish, but men dare not sell them to him, 12,800;
beach boys are expected to take out their fees in goods, 12,813;
interest at five per cent. is charged on debts, 12,821; goods at store
are overpriced, 12,826.
HUTCHISON, Mary (analysis of her evidence, p. 31), lives in
Lerwick, 1561; knits, 1562; with her own wool, 1563; sends her
articles to a dealer in Edinburgh, 1564; and is paid in cash, 1566;
acts as his agent (1565), employing women to knit, supplying
wool, and paying in ready money, 1569-1575; women prefer
this system, 1581; sometimes sells shawls at a shop, 1586; and
gets a line or I.O.U., 1589; often buys these from knitters to
accommodate them, 1592, 1593.
HUTCHISON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 313), is a
fisherman and tenant in Skerries, 12,616; under Mr. Bruce, 12,617;
pays rent to Mr. Adie, and fishes for him, 12,618-12,620; is bound
to do so, 12,621; under penalty of eviction, 12,625; never knew of
a man having offended, 12,626; men are obliged to deal at curer's
store, because of their want of money, 12,636; are put on an
allowance if they have exceeded their credit, 12,641-12,643; the
price of goods at the store is much higher than elsewhere, 12,658;
is obliged to sell farm produce at the merchant's store, 12,689; men
fined for going to Greenland fishing, 12,698; fathers are ejected
for their sons' misdemeanours, 12,706; this, however, refers rather
to a former state of matters, as there are no fines imposed now, and
farm produce can be sold to any one at discretion, 12,713, 12,726.
-(recalled, p. 316). Got £17, 19s. by summer fishing last year,
12,767; that sum is about as much as any other man would get,
12,768.
IMMORALITY and prostitution fostered by the system of
paying for hosiery with goods, 14,711.
INDEBTEDNESS, Connection with long settlements, 5234,
5653, 5981, 6537, 7475, 7937, 8564, 10,538.
-General statements as to, 5998, 6512, 6875, 7174, 7354, 7475,
8017, 10,925, 10,957, 11,076, 12,306, 12,821, 13,808, 14,172,
14,302.
-Impossible to keep men clear in a bad year, 3623, 3793, 6274.
-the great trouble of merchants, 3623, 5148, 8016, 12,295.
INDEBTED Men bound to fish for curer, 3852, 5554, 5829,
6092, 7010, 7054, 8695.
-Allowances to. <See> Allowances, etc.
-Generally change employer, 6822, 6875, 7354, 10,957, 16,566.
-Merchants prefer to re-engage, 15,522, 15,587, 15,629,
16,280.
INKSTER, Mrs. Ann Leask or (analysis of her evidence, p. 286),
lives in Scalloway, 11,671; knits for Mr. Sinclair, 11,672; is paid
in money by strangers, 11,673; but never by dealers--never asked
for cash, 11,674·
INKSTER, Daniel (analysis of his evidence, p. 373), is a seaman,
living in Lerwick for two years past, previously in the North Isles
under Mr. Walker, 14,814; has been at sealing, and whaling, and
the ling fishing for a number of years, 14,815; was ejected by Mr.
Walker, 14,816; because he could not pay his rent, although he
took his crops and sold them, and put him in danger of starving-
this is commonly done, 14,820; settlement of whaling voyages
made in full, 14,839; men are not obliged, or even told, to go and
settle their shop accounts, 14,841; goods are as cheap at agent's.
store as elsewhere, 14,860; has had allowance from Shipwrecked
Mariners' Fund, and got it in cash from agent, 14,863-14,865.
INTEREST charged on debts, 12,821.
IRVINE, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 335), is a fisherman
at Garthbanks, on the Quendale estate, 13,485; hands in a
document, signed by twenty-eight men on that property, stating
they are honourably dealt with by Mr. A. J. Grierson, their present
landlord, and desire to continue to fish for him, 13,486; has fished
for thirteen years to Mr. Grierson, 13,487; and has always been
paid the currency, 13,489; could not have got a higher price,
13,490; wrote the document handed in himself, on previous night,
13,493; of his own accord, 13,494; men were quite willing to sign
it, and more would have signed it if they had been asked, [Page
446] 13,499; deals at store, 13,507; is paid in cash at settlement,
13,508; is satisfied with the price and quality of store goods,
13,519.
IRVINE, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 324), is shopkeeper
at Grutness to Mr. John Bruce, jun., 13,127; men on Sumburgh
estate are understood to be bound to fish for landlord, but some do
not, 13,130; tenants are reproved, but, he thinks, never ejected for
selling fish to another merchant, 13,141; settlements are made
yearly, 13,159; balance is always paid in cash, 13,161; men
indebted, or who have been indebted, are only allowed to take a
certain quantity of meal weekly from store, 13,179-13,181; price
of cotton, 13,200; tobacco, 13,204; store is only kept for the
accommodation of fishermen, 13,208; there is no profit on it,
13,209; men's rents are lower, because they are expected to fish,
13,253, 13,254.
IRVINE, Janet (analysis of her evidence, p. 3), supports herself by
knitting and working in a fish-curing establishment, 71, 72; gets
money when she wishes from one dealer, but cannot from any
other, 81-90; is paid in money at fish-curing establishment--deals
at shop kept by fish-curer, but is not obliged, 120-148.
IRVINE, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 390), broker and
general dealer in Lerwick, 15,469; deals also in provisions to a
small extent, 15,470; deals mostly with men, buys and sells
clothes, 15,472, 15,476; seldom deals with knitters, 15,479.
IRVINE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 83), partner of Hay
& Co., merchants in Lerwick, 3619; Hay & Co. have curing
stations in several parts of the islands, and manage four estates,
two as factors and two as lessees, 3623; the tenants on one of the
first are free to fish where they choose, and dispose of all their
produce as they please, <ib>.; on the other they are also free
(excepting the island of Whalsay and Whalsay Skerries), and
to dispose of their produce as they please, <ib>.; balances paid
in cash, and people are well-to-do and not in debt; Shetland
fishermen not ignorant and uneducated; many have sailed to all
parts of the world, and now that communication is so much more
frequent and easy with the Mainland, they are much better
informed, and goods have very much increased in value; fishermen
are charged for goods the same price as the public pay in ready
money; carpenters and tradesmen employed by Hay & Co. are paid
in cash weekly: at the Burra Islands have two curing stations;
fishermen are paid regular prices, and the tenants have complete
liberty in the sale of their produce; there is no shop on the island,
and men get supplies from our stores at Lerwick and Scalloway;
in bad seasons credit is given to the men, on one occasion the
island being indebted to the amount of £1000: in Faroe fishing,
crews are engaged on shares; fish salted on board, and landed at
curing stations wet, <ib>.; fishings of all kinds succeed best when
men are paid by shares; when paid monthly wages they have no
inducement to work, and the season being short, the utmost
activity is necessary, <ib>.; Shetland fishermen are, on the whole,
better off than many of the same class in other parts of the
kingdom, <ib>.; the profit of curers on fish is very small; bad
debts are a great drawback; a ready money system would be
scarcely possible to carry out; it would, entail an additional
expense on merchants, which, with their small profits, they could
ill afford; small traders would be driven out of the market, and the
fishermen would eventually suffer, <ib>.; the statements made
before the Truck Commission in Edinburgh were very absurd,
especially one to the effect that a merchant would not thrive unless
he accumulated a great quantity of bad debts; thinks the fishing
trade as it is cannot be altered for the better, and that any Act
of Parliament interfering with it will only have the effect of
destroying it, 3623; dealing at store is optional, 3640; there has
never been any application made for permission to open another
shop in Whalsay, 3642, 3648; does not know if such an application
would be granted, 3649; does not think fishermen employed by
him ever smuggle away fish, 3655; system of book-keeping,
3668-3673; settlements are generally over by the end of the year,
3688; markets for fish, 3698, 3699; prices paid by curers are
generally the same, 3708-3710; large deposits are made in bank
by men, 3735, 3736; written obligation given by Burra men eight
years ago, but never acted on, 3750-3754; it is only in the home
fishing that men are bound to deliver their fish, 3764; payment of
monthly wages has been agreed to and afterwards repudiated by
men, 3833; purchase of boats, 3839-3847; to permit debts is a
bad system, 3877; herring fishery, 3880; weekly settlements
impossible, 3896; hosiery trade yields, no profit, 3900; does
not think a much higher price is charged for goods by hosiery
merchants, 3909; men curing their own fish, 3943; would not do it
so well, and so would get a smaller price, 3746; Mouat, 3948;
oyster fishing, 3970, 3981; shops not permitted in Burra, because
of the sale of tea and excisable goods, 3971, 3972; Greenland
whale fishery, 3991; monthly notes, 4016-4078; Greenland fishers
seldom indebted, 4054.
JAMIESON, Andrew B. (analysis of his evidence, p. 353), clerk
to Mr. Leask for nineteen years, 14,161; principally concerned in
settlements with seamen employed in the Greenland whale fishery,
14,163; men at settlement, before the system of payment at the
Customhouse, paid the balance due them, and besides got cash
during the currency of their account if they wanted, 14,166; men
are seldom indebted to the full amount of their wages, 14,172; and
those who are, are young hands, 14,173; now the whole money is
paid to the men, and sometimes they return at once to the clerk the
amount of their accounts, 14,209; or they come down to the shop
immediately after settlement, 14,212; men have never failed to pay
their accounts, 14,221; except in one single instance, 14,222; no
compulsion is exercised--the men go of their own accord, 14,249.
JAMIESON, Andrew B. (recalled, p. 357). States with regard to
the accountant of the Board of Trade's report, that he considers it
unjust to the agents in the Greenland trade--concurs generally in
the statements of Mr. William Robertson, (p. 265), 14,293; men
are not generally indebted to the amount of the money due them,
14,302; excepting in bad voyages, when young hands are generally
in debt, 14,303; families of men commonly have a weekly
allowance, 14,311; men not obliged to take their outfits from the
store, 14,316; knows no case of sums allowed by the Shipwrecked
Mariners' Society being retained for payment of a man's account,
14,349; it would only be done with the man's concurrence, 14,370.
JAMIESON, Arthur Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 193),
Was employed by commissioner to purchase articles at store of
Messrs. Pole, Hoseason, & Co., 7946; got and delivered certain
articles to clerk, 7947.
JAMIESON, Geo. (analysis of his evidence, p. 389), farmer and
fisherman at North Roe, on Busta estate, 15,400; formerly was
under Messrs. Hay--was suspended from fishing for four years,
because he refused to go in a boat with some old men, 15,402;
other fish-curers were prevented by them from hiring him, 15,403;
keeps two paupers--has for one £8, and for the other £3, 10s. per
annum--money is paid through Mr. Greig, who refuses payment of
more than a trifle in money, 15,406; is told that he must take a part
in truck, 15,442; is refused expenses for attending as witness
before commissioner, 15,468.
JAMIESON, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 350), lives
in Quarff, 14,035; knits and dresses, 14,036; purchases wool for
herself, 14,037; cannot get payment in cash--has been refused the
sum of one halfpenny, 14,039; gets wool in exchange for tea, or
clothes, or hosiery, 14,053; merchants often have no money in
their shops, 14,042.
JAMIESON, Ogilvy (analysis of his evidence, p. 332), shopkeeper
to Mr. Grierson at Quendale, 13,348; overseer, 13,349; and
bookkeeper, 13,350; beach boys paid by fees, 13,353; a condition
of holding is that the tenants shall supply boys when they have
them suitable, 13,361; men buying boats get advances from dealer,
13,399.
JOHNSTONE, Mrs. Agnes Malcolmson or (analysis of her
evidence, p. 104), lives in Lerwick, 4200; knits and sells to
merchant, 4201, 4202; is paid in goods, 4205; never got money,
excepting on one occasion sixpence, 4206; would prefer money,
4210; would take a lower price in cash, 4211; as she could buy
goods cheaper at other shop, 4215; and for other reasons, 4218,
4225; never had to exchange goods for money, but knows people
who have, 4226, 4228.
JOHNSON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 374), is a tenant
and ling fisherman at Colafirth, near Ollaberry, 14,884; bound to
sell fish to factor, 14,890; thinks it would be an advantage to cure
his own fish, 14,893; merchants give a larger price for fish to free
men than bound men get, 14,894; prices at the store are higher
than they should be, 14,923, 14,928; would like liberty to sell his
fish to the highest bidder, 14,939; short settlements would be no
advantage unless men had freedom in fishing, 14,946.
JOHNSTON, Barbara (analysis of her evidence, p. 7), knits for
dealer, 369; has no pass-book, 371; is paid in goods, cannot get
money, 377-379; never got a line, 411; but never asked, 412;
merchant always fixes price of goods, 421, 422; thinks them
sometimes [Page 447] too low, 423-425; cannot get wool for
work done, 449.
JOHNSTON, Charlotte (analysis of her evidence, p. 397), lives at
Colafirth, near Ollaberry, 15,780; was seventeen years in Lerwick,
and kept lodgers and boarders, 15,781; now dresses hosiery, and
knits for Mr. Morgan Laurenson, 15,783; is always paid in goods,
15,786; runs an account, and cannot get it settled at short intervals,
15,790; different prices are charged by merchant for cash and
goods, 15,826; hands in statement from man who built a house for
her in 1863, stating that he was obliged to take payment from her
in goods, as witness could not get payment from Mr. Laurenson in
cash, 15,844; she had to give him goods for less than she got for
them, 15,845.
JOHNSTON, Mrs. Christian (analysis of her evidence, p. 99), lives
in Muckle Roe, and is wife of former fisherman, 8162; knits and
weaves grey cloth, 8163; gets wool from merchant, spins it, gives
it to 'wabster' to be woven, and sells to merchant, the price of wool
being deducted, 8166; gets money to pay 'wabster,' 8179; some
dealers pay for it in money and some do not, 8189.
JOHNSTON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 222), is tenant of
Mr. M'Queen at Burravoe, and fishes for Mr. Adie, 9222; formerly
tenant on Lunna estate---left because men were handed over to a
tacksman, with whom he had a dispute, and was bound to fish for
him, 9224; threatened to be ejected for not fishing, 9227;
fined for selling fish to another dealer, 9241.
JOHNSTON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 300), is a merchant
at Bridge of Walls, Sandsting, 12,219; business is the same as that
of Mr. Georgeson, with the exception that he has a spirit and
grocery licence, 12,226; spirits are always sold for cash, 12,228;
has accounts with a number of fishermen, 12,230; buys no fish,
12,236; has no security except the personal credit of the men,
12,240; thinks men have complete liberty in fishing, 12,247.
JOHNSTON, Magnus (analysis of his evidence, p. 191), is a
shopkeeper at Tofts, near Mossbank, 7843; deals in tea, tobacco,
and sugar, and buys fish, 7844; cures it himself, 7845; pays in
cash, 7851; formerly at Faroe fishing, 7860; men were of opinion
that they were not always allowed a fair price, 7869; meal, 7897;
thinks long payments and credit cause improvidence, 7931.
JOHNSTON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 248), registrar
of Baltasound, lives at Balliasta, 10,206; formerly a fisherman,
10,207; men entirely free to fish then, 10,208; has a farm now,
10,216; deals at any shop, and pays ready money, 10,217.
JOHNSTONE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 62), merchant
in Lerwick, 2822; pays knitters generally in goods, but sometimes
gives a little money, 2827; there is often no profit, and sometimes
a loss, on hosiery, 2842-2860; would prefer cash payments, 2863;
price of goods would be reduced, 2866; does not give lines, 2875;
lines used as a currency, 2880; never heard of goods being taken
from shop and sold to obtain cash, 2896; will sell any yarn, except
Shetland yarn, for either cash or goods, 2897; merchants do not
sell it, 2899, 2990.
KELP, 5262, 6325, 6353, 6463, 6628, 6851, 7176, 7986,
8838, 8973, 9349, 10,088, 13,293, 13,814, 14,143.
KNITTERS, Getting of worsted by, 2897, 11,579.
Selling or bartering of goods or lines by, 236, 986, 993, 1487,
1528, 1592, 1627, 1879, 2190, 2587, 2896, 3516, 3599, 4112,
4147, 4226, 6697, 11,475, 11,559, 11,578, 11,601, 11,637, 11,698,
11,759, 11,998, 12,037, 14,053, 15,336, 15,845, 16,657.
Whether much in debt, 2350, 2378.
Amount of tea sold to, 2437, 3205, 6696,11,578, 11,764.
LAURENSON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 41), is a dealer
in hosiery in Lerwick, 2120; and partner in the oldest firm of
merchants there, 2121; buys knitted goods, and gives wool out to
be knitted, but principally the former, 2126; pays in goods,
2127-2130; the practice of barter is of long continuance in
Shetland, 2132; and that of part payment in cash very recent,
2133-2136; never refuses to give cash, 2142; advances are often
made, 2150; sometimes pays the whole value of hosiery in cash,
2168; two prices, cash and goods, 2171-2173; cash system would
prevent dealers from taking knitted work so readily as at present,
as they would then buy only what they actually required, 2177; but
yet thinks the cash system would ultimately be advantageous to all,
2179, 2204, 2248; as it would be simpler, 2180; as a general rule,
believes women cannot get cash, 2184; merchants have no profit
on hosiery, but only on the drapery goods sold to the workers,
2199; and often sell particular articles of hosiery at a loss, 2203;
system of pass-books, 2213-2241; does not give lines, 2235; wool
supply, 2288; always gives yarn for goods, 2291, 2292; but
believes some merchants do not, 2293; because they have little or
no profit on it, 2297-2312; yarn only kept by dealers for the use of
their own knitters, 2303; merchants have no hold over knitters,
2310; regular tariff of prices cannot be made, owing to the
differences of workmanship and pattern, 2327; knitters are
seldom much in debt, 2359, 2851.
LAURENSON, Arthur (recalled, p. 406). States, with reference to
the evidence of Mr. Walker (p. 402), that he always deals with
first-class houses, 16,029.
LAURENSON, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 414)
seaman at Mews, Dunrossness, and serves in the Naval Reserve,
16,380; has mostly gone south, 16,382; was two years at the ling
fishing, 16,384; dealt with merchant curer only for fishing
material, 16,385; had no advances, 16,386; but thinks he would
have got them if he had asked, 16,387.
LAURENSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 237), is a
fisherman at Burrafirth, 9816; and tenant, 9817; not bound to
fish, 9819; has no pass-book, 9827; winter fish is paid on delivery
in cash and goods, 9887, 9890; thinks meal and flour at store
sometimes not very good, 9899.
LAURENSON, Morgan (analysis of his evidence, p. 174), is a
merchant at Lochend, 7274; deals in drapery and provisions, 7275;
employs a few fishermen, 7276; deals in hosiery and pays in
goods, 7291; is seldom asked to give cash, 7295; gives lines rarely,
7299, 7300; never refused to give small sums in cash to a regular
knitter, 7304; occasionally buys special articles for cash, 7305;
giving a lower price, women unwilling to take cash, 7306; there is
no profit on hosiery, 7314; wool is very scarce, 7317; smuggling
of fish is very slightly carried on, 7336; men much indebted to
merchant often change their employer, 7354; it is not the
interest of the merchant to let debt be incurred, 7885.
LAURENSON, Simon (analysis of his evidence, p. 10).
Corroborates Andrew Tulloch (p. 9), 542, 543; wishes freedom in
fishing, 544; does not know exactly what landlord's system is, but
knows the tenants under him are not satisfied, 547.
LAURENSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 393), seaman
in Bressay, has been at sealing and whaling for thirty-six years,
latterly paid at Custom-house, 15,600; previously he could get no
clear account the state of his account, 15,601; corroborates Francis
Gifford (p. 391); knows that indebted men get a ship more easily
than others, 15,629.
LEASES, 621, 800, 919, 4258, 6749, 8033, 10,156, 12,252,
14,816, 15,124.
-desirable, 4413, 6749, 8067, 16,461.
-Men cannot get, 764.
LEASK, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 25) fisherman at
Channerwick, 1221; and yearly tenant, 1223, 1224; was bound for
the home fishing, but not for others, 1250; the price of fish was
fixed by the merchant (Robert Mouat), 1258; and paid in goods,
1276-1287; could not get money from him, 1294; sometimes sold
goods got at store to obtain money, 1290; produce of farms had to
be sold to tacksman, 1295; 1300; is now under a new merchant,
and is not so badly used, 1353, 1354; previously the people were
subjected to great tyranny, 1327-1352; knitting paid in goods,
1366; cannot get money, 1371.
LEASK, Joseph (analysis of his evidence p. 345, is one of the
largest employers in the Faroe trade and fish-curers in Shetland,
13,822; corroborates Mr William Robertson (pp. 265, 338),
13,823; small fish-curers can only exceptionally get higher prices,
12,827.
LEISK, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 366), is a partner of
Leisk & Sandison, merchants and shipping agents, Lerwick,
14,589; previously employed by Mr George Reid Tait, now
retired, 14,590; agrees generally with Mr. Tait (p. 363) as to the
way in which seamen are discharged and their wages paid, 14,593;
paid in cash, without any deductions even of allotments, 14,595;
allotments chiefly paid in cash, 14,605; men generally pay their
accounts on receiving their wages--only remembers one case of
defalcation, 14,628; only young hands are indebted to the full
amount of their pay, 14,634; men are free to go to any shop they
please for goods, 14,671.
LESLIE, Adam, junior (analysis of his evidence, p. 121),
fisherman at Toab, 4877; corroborates previous witnesses as to the
holding of land and fish, 4879; has no pass-book, 4881; always
gets money if he wishes, 4885; thinks goods dearer at store, 4887.
LESLIE, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 114), is a [Page 448]
in the fisherman at Dunrossness, 4610; and lives with his father,
who is a tenant of land, 4611; is bound to fish, 4612; corroborates
William Goudie (p. 105) and others, 4613; prices are much higher
at store, 4614; is at liberty to deal anywhere, 4627.
LESLIE, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 126), is a fisherman
and tenant at Gord, 5122; bound to fish for sixty years past, 5127;
obligation to fish has always been part of the condition of holding
land, 5133.
LESLIE, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 15), is a
fisherman at Lerwick, 739; corroborates Laurence Mail (p. 11),
742.
LESLIE, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 125), fisherman,
and lives with his father, who is a tenant at Hillwill, 5072; is bound
to fish, 5077; beach boys, 5086; knitting paid in goods--tweeds
refused in exchange for hosiery, 5093.
LEWIS, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 432), is a grocer and
wine merchant in Canongate, Edinburgh, for nearly forty years,
16,816; has examined samples sent to him, 16,818; and gives in a
report of their value, 16,819; thinks all the articles overcharged,
16,884.
LIBERTY Money, 625, 764, 786, 1012, 1130, 1211, 4483, 4510,
4948, 5060, 8909, 12,306, 13,372, 13,430, 13,552, 15,100.
LINES given to knitters, 248, 257, 329, 411, 1464, 1589, 1679,
1764, 1875, 1889, 1955, 1985, 2190, 2502, 2581, 2694, 2785,
2875, 3070, 3250, 3343, 3445, 3573, 3617, 4099, 6700, 7299,
9657, 9666, 9769, 9787, 10,452, 11,497, 11,637, 11,623, 12,881,
14,047, 15,812.
LINES to day labourers, 10,424, 10,735.
LING Fishery and price of ling, statements as to, 459, 744, 879,
2502, 3623, 6523, 9138, 9238, 9308, 9611, 11,347, 11,393,
11,909, 11,957, 12,089, 12,967, 13,645, 13,648, 13,813, 13,887,
14,885, 15,730, 16,384, 16,429, 16,466.
LINKLATER, Hugh (analysis of his evidence, p. 64),
merchant in Lerwick, 2905; buys knitted goods, 2906; sells
drapery, 2909; corroborates Mr. Laurenson generally, 2913; deals
very little in hosiery, 2914; generally sells drapery for cash, 2918.
LINKLATER, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 58), merchant
in Lerwick, 2666; deals in hosiery, and keeps a stock of drapery
and tea, 2667; conducts his business in a somewhat similar manner
to Mr. Robert Sinclair (p. 49), 2669; gives wool to be knitted, and
buys from knitters, 2670; pays principally in goods, 2671, 2674;
money only given exceptionally, 2675; most knitters have
pass-books, 2676; never refuses money, 2684-2692; gives no lines,
2694; money is seldom asked for, 2716; two prices for cash and
goods, 2726; gets a small profit on hosiery, 2728, 2730; it is
difficult to procure Shetland wool, 2752; does not sell it, 2753;
there is often no profit, and occasionally loss, on hosiery, 2758,
2760.
LONG Settlements, 501, 807, 4782, 5981, 9921, 10,702,
11,891.
-Men contented with, 5853.
-Men discontented with; 693, 1409, 9596.
M'LACHLAN, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 334), is
principal lightkeeper at Sumburgh Lighthouse, 13,436; obtains
supplies from Granton and Aberdeen, 13,437; has opened an
account with local dealer (Mr. Henderson), and finds goods
reasonable in price and good in quality, 13,442; has heard, but
does not know, that goods at Hay & Co.'s store are expensive,
13,449.
MAIL, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 11), is a fisherman,
548; and tenant of land, 549; complains that he is bound to deliver
all his fish to the landlord, Green, 559; is therefore obliged to deal
at landlord's store, 568; where goods are dearer, 568, and 598, 612;
fishermen are afraid to complain lest warned to leave, 572; and are
warned if they sell fish to any other dealer, 577-585; not obliged to
deal at store, but really compelled to do so by present system, 586;
goods are not inferior at store, 613; leases, 621; liberty money,
625; whales, 651; when driven on shore, one-third of the oil taken
by landlord, 657; and the rest of the price paid through the
proprietor, 655; believes that freedom in fishing would be a much
better system, 659; had a pass-book, but had to discontinue it, as
the storekeeper objected to keep it, 690; complains that men do not
know what they are earning or what goods they have till the end of
the season, and even then cannot get detailed accounts, 693; states
that he expects to be warned because of coming to give evidence,
722; merchants in bad seasons give credit to men, 731.
MAINLAND, Hans (analysis of his evidence, p. 120), fisherman,
4857; never dealt at store, 4859; because he heard that goods were
dearer, 4860; complains that in the system of ground letting no
compensation can be got for improvements, 4865; fishing alone is
not sufficient to support men, 4872.
MALCOLMSON, Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 408),
lives with her mother in Lerwick, 16,093; knits and sews--mother
knits, 16,094; knits fine veils and shawls, 16,096; paid always in
goods, 16,097.; never asked for money, 16,098; gets money for
sewing, 16,099; buys her provisions with this money, and money
obtained by letting lodgings, 16,101, 16,102; would prefer to get
money for hosiery, 16,103.
-(recalled, p. 409). Produces black veil bought from Mr.
Linklater which cost 1s. 4.1/2d., 16,136. )
MALCOLMSON, Malcolm (analysis of his evidence, p. 66),
fisherman at Channerwick, 2978; and his father is a tenant under
fish-curer, 2979; tenants under former tacksman (Robert Mouat)
fished for him, supposing they were bound, 2983; there was no
obligation, 2984; were forbidden to sell their fish to others, 2992;
and were threatened with ejectment if they did, 2994; one man was
ejected, 2994; and notice of ejectment was served on witness's
father because witness had sold fish to another merchant, 2997; but
being ill, was afterwards permitted to remain, 3003; men were
obliged to take goods from store, 3004; as they had no money,
3005; could not get any, 3006, 3007; goods were very bad, 3009.
MALCOLMSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 118),
fisherman and tenant at Northtown, 4771; corroborates William
Goudie (p. 105) and Laurence Smith (p. 110), 4772, 4773; knows
a case of ejectment for selling fish to other dealers, 4777; men
would make more if they were allowed to cure for themselves,
4780; long settlements are sometimes a disadvantage, 4782; not
many fishermen have deposits in bank, 4785; price of meal, 4788;
thinks meal dearer at factor's store, 4794; but quality good, 4799.
MANSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 64), formerly a
fisherman at Dunrossness, 2924; now curer of fish for Harrison &
Son at Lerwick, 2925, 2926; and superintendent of their workers,
2927; Harrison & Son are principally engaged in Faroe fishing,
2929; they have a store, 2932; is not obliged to deal there, but
workers generally do, 2933-2936; his wages are paid, and he pays
in cash, 2937; no pass-books, 2944; has no complaint to make,
2947; in Faroe fishing the price not fixed till the end of the season,
2954; family, in the absence of fisherman, get goods and cash if
they require at store, 2955, 2957; not obliged to deal at store,
2961; men generally get outfit there, 2962.
MANSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 67), fisherman at
Channerwick, 3018; tenant under fish-curer, 3019; formerly under
tacksman (Mouat), 3020; bound to fish for him, 3021; ejected by
him for selling fish to another dealer, 3022-3028; permitted to
remain on paying the expense of the summons and promising
obedience, 3029; goods very bad, 3039-3045; obliged to deal at
store from want of money, 3041, 3942; at liberty now to fish for
any one, 3047.
MEAL, Price of, etc., 393, 1135, 1345, 3413, 4316, 4548, 4706,
4788, 4835, 5045, 5300, 5324, 5330, 5514, 5696, 5799, 5962,
6194, 6235, 6834, 6972, 7400, 7786, 7897, 7951, 7999, 8475,
8697, 8733, 8766, 8890, 8965, 9068, 9286, 9315, 9396, 9812,
9843, 9899, 10,019, 10,222, 10,254, 10,391,10,511, 10,612,
10,676, 10,753, 11,846, 12,658, 12,756, 12,795, 12,870, 13,019,
13,045, 13,166, 13,173, 13,223, 13,250, 13,259, 13,306, 13,388,
13,884, 14,106, 14,570, 14,727, 14,923, 14,965, 14,975, 15,018,
15,833, 16,656, 16,659, 16,820.
MEN (or boys) cannot help incurring debt, 10,282.
MEN curing for themselves, 924, 964, 1074, 3943, 4780, 5428,
5984, 8466, 11,934, 12,056, 12,295, 12,937, 13,034, 13,986,
14,155, 14,893, 15,068, 13,982.
MEN must take goods from fish-curer, 568, 586, 764, 3004,
13,088, 13,982.
MEN supported by merchant in bad season, 731, 954, 3623,
4363, 6274, 10,753, 12,295, 12,547, 13,048.
MEN taking goods from fish-merchant, 2933, 2961, 3004, 3041,
3640, 4238, 4298, 4345, 4488, 4520, 4627, 4671, 4965, 5112,
5436, 5547, 5628, 5679, 5789, 5856, 6057, 6189, 6253, 6554,
6842, 6903, 6944, 7392, 8337, 8519, 8685, 8726, 9286, 9307,
9557, 9828, 9930, 10,386, 10,587, 10,704, 11,806, 12,112, 12,210,
12,266, 12,295, 12,347, 12,686, 12,739, 12,847, 13,087, 13,405,
13,507, 13,701, 13,946, 13,980, 14,796, 15,720, 16,373.
MEN wish liberty in fishing, 544, 560, 659, 788, 1109, 4424,
4584, 4780, 12,635, 12,750, 12,865, 13,425, 13,840, 14,939.
MERCHANTS, monopoly of shop trade, 12,372.
MILLAR, Rev. Duncan (analysis of his evidence, p. 147), United
Presbyterian clergyman at Mossbank, 5974; thinks the system of
long payments injurious to men, as apt to lead them into debt and
to teach them deception [Page 449], as it encourages smuggling,
5981; men curing for themselves, 5984; indebted men under
control of shopkeeper, 5995; system by which men are forced to
fish, 5997; hosiery, 6004; women would prefer payment in cash,
6006.
MOFFAT, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 413), seaman at
Lochside, Lerwick, and serves in Naval Reserve, 16,341; has gone
to seal and whale fishing under various agents, 16,343; always
deals with the one he sails under, 16,346; until 1867 had settlement
at agent's office, 16,347; since then at Custom-house, 16,348; goes
down from there and settles his account, 16,349; amount paid on
advance notes is not sufficient to sustain his family, and therefore
he prefers to leave his advance notes in the agent's hands and let
his family obtain supplies from him, 16,359; generally has a
balance to get at settlement, 16,366; wife gets cash when she asks,
16,368; men are quite free to deal, but generally go to the shop of
the agent they sail under, 16,373.
MONCRIEFF, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 281), baker
and provision merchant in Scalloway, 11,461; deals in hosiery,
11,463; pays in goods, 11,464; never gives money, 11,465;
mentions case of a woman bringing soap and bartering it for
provisions, 11,475; gets worsted from Edinburgh, 11,507; cannot
get Shetland wool, 11,508; deals in ready money with fishermen to
a small extent--does not run accounts with them, 11,518; possibly
a ready money system would improve his trade with them, 11,521.
MONEY articles, 451, 3473, 5093, 6368, 11,545.
MONRO, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 409), second
officer of Customs at the port of Lerwick, 16,141; for five years,
16,142; when new regulations came into force in 1867, merchants
endeavoured to make deductions other than those they had a right
to make, but were stopped, 16,147, 16,148; it is understood that
men always pay their accounts to agent after they are settled with,
16,163.
MOODIE, Mrs Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 36), knits,
1848; knits partly with her own and partly with dealer's wool,
1851; paid in goods, 1855; but can get some money if she wishes,
1856; gets lines, 1875; sometimes sells them for money, 1879; has
sold to strangers at a cheaper rate that she might get money, 1881,
1882; could always have wool for goods, 1890.
MOODIE, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 371), seaman and
fisherman in Lerwick, 14,761; has been at sealing and whaling for
a number of years, 14,762; under various owners, 14,764; green
hands generally get outfit from merchants, 14,766; goods are as
cheap at agent's shop as any other, 14,769; at settlement paid in
full at the Custom-house, with the exception of ship's bill, 14,773;
no compulsion is used to make him pay his account at agent's,
14,779; men generally get their goods from agent who employs
them, but not bound, 14,796; has got money from Shipwrecked
Mariners' Fund, and has always got cash from agent, 14,800.
MORE, Daniel (analysis of his evidence, p. 232), fisherman and
proprietor of house at Cunningster, 9632; once opened a shop at
Basta, and the landlord (a merchant) put him out because he was
succeeding too well, 9634; turned out of another place because he
would not fish, 9638; heavier rent charged when men do not fish,
9639-9645.
MORRISON, Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 394), lives in
Lerwick, 15,637; lives by going errands, knitting stockings, etc.,
15,638; sells occasionally neckties, 15,639; some years past sold
goods for knitting-women, 15,644; has only once or twice done so
lately, 15,649; does not make her living principally by doing
errands, 15,698; her evidence contradicted by Mrs E. Quin (p.
425).
MOUAT, Mrs. Andrina (analysis of her evidence, p. 39), lives at
Girlsta; knits with her own wool, 2030; paid in cash and goods,
2044; sometimes could not get money, 2052; merchants are not
willing to give money, 2067.
MOUAT, William Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 249),
partner of Spence & Co., 10,232; and co-manager at Baltasound,
10,233; corroborates Mr. Sandison, 10,236; thinks a system of
monthly payments, if it could be introduced, would be an
advantage, 10,238; system of book-keeping, 10,242, 10,277; deals
a little in hosiery, 10,306; it is generally paid in goods, 10,308.
MOWAT, Magnus (analysis of his evidence, p. 434), boat-builder
at Newhaven, 16,888; Shetland boats are inferior to those he is
accustomed to build, 16,892; the timber is inferior, and they are
lighter, 16,897; thinks a Shetland boat could be used for twelve or
fourteen years at the utmost, 16,907; thinks one would be dear at
£20, 16,914.
MOUAT, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 105), blacksmith at
Olnafirth Voe, 4236; works principally for Messrs. Adie, 4237; in
getting goods from Messrs. Adie's shop, pays in cash, 4238; does
not know whether there are two prices, cash and credit, 4239;
never heard any complaints on the subject, 4247.
MULLAY, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 383), is a merchant
and fish-curer in Lerwick, 15,140; and has a retail shop, 15,141;
employs seven boats in the ling fishing, 15,142; and has a station
at Ireland in Dunrossness, 15,143; the only place in the
neighbourhood where fish can be landed and dried, 15,144;
tenants not bound to fish to him, 15,145; but all do so, 15,146.
NICHOLSON, Mrs. Andrina Anderson or (analysis of her
evidence, p. 78), lives in Lerwick, 3495; knits, 3497; has almost
always had payment in goods, 3501; has often heard this system
complained of, and she thinks justly, 3504; to get money she had
to become a dresser, 3505; goods are sold at a higher price by
dealers, 3508, 3510; therefore a money system would be much
better, 3511; goods are sold by knitters to obtain money, 3516;
payment in goods makes girls wear more expensive dress than
they should, 3525.
NICHOLSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 211), is a
fisherman at North Delting, 8681; for Pole, Hoseason, & Co.,
8682; has account with them, 8685; settles at end of year, 8686;
considers he is bound to fish for merchant, being indebted to him,
8695; meal, 8697; merchants charge a high price for their goods,
8704.
NICHOLSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 293), is a
retired merchant in Scalloway, 11,906; was 25 years in business,
11,907; as fish-curer, draper, and general merchant, 11,908; sent
ten or twelve boats to the ling fishing, 11,909; was not a tacksman,
but landlord held him responsible for the men's rents, 11,912; men
under no obligation to fish, 11,928; men on the island of Havera
cure their own fish, 11,934; and he sold it for them, 11,935;
without charging any commission, 11,938; they dealt with him for
goods, 11,939; small boats are most suitable for Shetland fishing,
11,954; in one year, having had a serious loss in the sale of ling,
men offered him the use of money they had saved, 11,975;
merchants would require to be very honest under this system, for
they have ample opportunities of deceiving, 11,981; dealt in
hosiery only out of compassion for the poor people--exchanged
bread for it, 11,997; or took goods for provisions, 11,998; thinks
the goods given by Lerwick dealers for hosiery often inferior,
12,008.
NICHOLSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 212), lives in
North Delting; fishes for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., 8720; price
should be fixed at the beginning of season, 8722; deals at store,
8726; goods dearer there, 8731; quality inferior, 8732.
NICHOLSON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 258), is a
fisherman and tenant farmer at Haroldswick, 10,581; devotes
himself entirely to farming now, 10,584; deals with Spence & Co.,
and other dealers, 10,587; pays in cash generally, 10,592; has a
small account, 10,597; sorties yearly, 10,600; never bound to fish,
10,622; or to deal at any particular store, 10,623.
NICHOLSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 81), draper,
and to a small extent a dealer in hosiery, 3568; seldom gives lines,
3573; understood in the trade that hosiery is paid in goods, 3575;
thinks a change would be beneficial, 3576; but would lower the
prices given for hosiery, 3577; there is no profit on hosiery, 3584;
pays partly in cash when required, 3593; it is an understanding that
the price is principally taken in goods, 3594; never knew of goods
or lines being exchanged for cash or necessaries, 3599; but has
heard that such things done, 3601.
NICOLSON, Rev. Nicol (analysis of his evidence, p. 291)
clergyman of the Independent Church in Scalloway--has been
there for twenty-two years, 11,871; supposed that he was well
acquainted with the condition of the fishing population, but finds
from the evidence led that he is not, 11,873; was once a fisherman,
and when out of debt always got money from merchant if he
wished it, 11,874; thinks weekly or monthly settlements would be
an advantage if practicable, but in the majority of cases it would
not be, 11,875; masters must have security for boats and lines, and
so cannot be expected to pay weekly, 11,878; hosiery, 11,895; the
rule is to paying goods, 11,898; thinks payment in cash would be
an advantage to women, 11,900; thinks a ready money system
would be advantageous, but does not see how it would work,
11,905.
OBLIGATION to fish. <See> Tenants.
[Page 450]
OGILVY, Joan (analysis of her evidence, p. 236), knits with her
own and other people's wool, 9731; always pays for worsted with
cash, but never asked it in exchange for hosiery, 9734, 9735;
cannot get payment for hosiery entirely in cash, 9746; gets any
cash she requires from one dealer, 9781; never had lines, 9769 and
9787.
OLLASON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 406), member
of Ollason & Son, bootmakers, Lerwick, 16,018; produces letter
from fisherman, stating that by some misunderstanding he had not
got the wages he expected to get, and the amount was entirely
swallowed up by fish-curer's account and account to a former
employer retained from him at settlement, 16,019.
OLLASON, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 37), lives in
Lerwick, and knits for herself, 1902; sells generally to ladies,
sometimes to dealer, 1904, 1905; is paid in money and goods,
1906; buys her own wool, 1920; it is generally preferred to knit
for ladies and be paid in money, 1924.
OUTFIT, 2962, 9150, 9306, 10,801, 10,940, 12,407, 12,511,
13,755, 14,316, 14,765, 14,809, 14,827, 15,279, 15,549, 15,910,
15,947, 16,224, 16,270, 16,352, 16,534.
OYSTERS, 3970, 11,458, 11,802, 12,313.
PARAFFIN Oil, price of, 10,263.
PASS-BOOKS, 12, 243, 371, 495, 690, 1340, 1348, 1481, 1611,
1664, 1670, 1700, 1791, 1942, 2077, 2213, 2383, 2455, 2676,
2944, 3668, 4099, 4337, 4881, 5117, 5170, 5574, 6400, 6917,
6994, 8954, 9827, 10,329, 11,839, 12,138, 13,176, 13,470.
PETERSON, Euphemia (analysis of her evidence, p. 157), lives
with her parents at Hillswick, 6441; father is a fisherman and
tenant, 6442; she knits, 6444; is paid in goods, 6448; never asked
or got money, 6460; makes her own worsted, 6462; has worked at
kelp, 6463; would be paid in cash if she wished, 6467; eggs paid in
goods, 6483.
PAUPERISM, 5234, 7272, 7631, 8637, 15,406.
PAUPERS, 7649, 8378, 12,496, 15,406.
PAYMENT of persons in curing establishment, 120, 2939, 5004,
5103, 5254, 5752, 5907, 6602, 8804, 10,110, 10,345, 12,808,
13,353, 14,086, 15,766.
PEACE, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 425), partner of
Peace & Love, drapers, Kirkwall; buys Shetland hosiery both from
merchants and knitters, pays in cash, gets goods at about the same
price from both; has been told there is no profit on hosiery; thinks
a cash system would be a benefit to all parties concerned, 16,658.
PETERSON, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 164), is a
fisherman at Hillyar and lives at Hillswick, 6772; tenant of land
there, 6773; fishes for Mr. Laurence Smith, 6774; formerly fished
for Mr. Anderson, 6776; left him because he refused to supply him
with goods, as he was largely in debt, 6777; was summoned for the
amount, 6785; no decree as yet in the action, 6791; fishermen are
liable for the loss of hired lines, 6808; smuggling fish, 6822; when
an indebted man ceases to fish for a merchant, he is required to
find a cautioner, 6826; price of meal, 6834; men are not obliged to
deal with merchant, 6842; his daughter works at kelp, 6851; knits,
6852; and sells his eggs, 6853; is generally paid in goods, but
never asks money, 6856.
PETERSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 166), is a
fisherman, 6898; to Mr. Joseph Leask in Faroe fishing, 6900;
formerly at home fishing under Mr. Anderson, 6901, 6902; had
account at his shop, 6903; could not get cash during season, 6905;
but had any goods he required, 6909; deals with Mr. Leask now,
6913; refused a pass-book, 6917, 6919.
PETRIE, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 28), lives in
Fetlar, 1416; knits her own wool, 1420; sells to dealers, 1432;
paid in goods, 1439; price fixed by dealer, 1440; lines, 1465.
POLE, Joseph Leask (analysis of his evidence, p. 225), manager at
Greenbank for Pole, Hoseason, & Co., 9335, 9336; fishermen
generally have accounts, 9339; system of book-keeping, 9337,
9367; men are not hound to fish, but it is understood they shall do
so, 9370; men are not bound for the Faroe fishing, 937l; are very
temperate, 9382; hosiery is a bad speculation, 9402.
POLE, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 145), managing
partner of Pole, Hoseason, & Co., merchants and fish-curers at
Mossbank, 5877; generally corroborates Mr. Adie--current price
for fish, how fixed, 5887-5900; thinks a price fixed at the
beginning of the season would be no advantage to men, 5904;
beach boys, 5907; obligation to fish in home fishing, 5936;
not bound for whale or Faroe fishings, 5940; hosiery, 5962; meal,
5962.
POTATOES, 940, 10,019, 10,679, 11,628, 14,729.
POTTINGER, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 336), is
a fisherman in Burra--lives with his father, who is a tenant there,
13,524; they spent upwards of £12 on repairs of house in 1865,
and in 1866 Messrs. Hay charged £1 extra for 'peat-leave'--he
refused to pay it, but it was deducted from him at settlement,
13,525; formerly was under Messrs. Hay, and now is under Mr.
Harrison, 13,538; Messrs. Hay did not object, 13,540; only had
liberty because he was the master of a vessel, 13,551; some men
have had to pay liberty money for their sons going to Faroe under
another merchant, 13,552; men going to Faroe fishing sign a
written agreement, 13,557; men are partners with the owners to the
extent of one-half, 13,558; there is not much smuggling practised,
13,580.
PRICES, higher at store, 568, 598, 4313, 4542, 4614, 4662, 4734,
4742, 4794, 4835, 4860, 4887, 4978, 5045, 5300, 8403, 8704,
8731, 13,866, 13,940, 13,981.
-Higher on account of system of barter in hosiery dealings, 2866,
3176, 3508, 3909, 8040, 9585, 9715, 12,785, 12,826, 12,916,
13,085, 13,408, 13,442.
-of goods, 568, 598, 956, 959, 3423, 4238, 5801, 5856, 6193,
6266, 8731, 8887, 9299, 9583, 12,658, 12,756, 12,783, 12,826,
13,408, 13,465, 14,769, 14,860.
PRICE of fish, how fixed and ascertained, 4919, 5887, 8932, 9085,
9537, 9675, 10,125, 10,143, 12,277, 12,565, 13,027, 13,331,
13,648, 15,103.
-Fixed at first of season, 491, 860, 1409, 5201, 5814, 5904, 6213,
6267, 7059, 8508, 8722, 9951, 10,558, 12,090, 12,104, 12,885,
12,982, 13,519.
QUALITY of goods, 613,956, 959, 1394, 1650, 3009, 3039, 4313,
4742, 4799, 5801, 6266, 7398, 8732, 8887, 9899, 13,085, 13,408,
13,465.
QUIN, Mary Duncan or (analysis of her evidence, p. 425), lives
in Kirkwall, was born in Lerwick, and lived there till seven years
since; has knitted for twenty years, both with her own wool and
that of merchants; always paid in goods, but did not need money
much. Women who depended on knitting for a living often had to
sell their goods for half-price to get money; sells at Kirkwall for
money. Gives evidence as to the value of veils got from Grace
Slater (p. 409) and E. Malcolmson (p. 409), 16,657.
RATTER, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 177), fishermen at
North Roe, 7386; and tenant of Messrs. Hay, 7387; generally deals
at their store, 7392; articles always satisfactory, 7398; tea, 7399;
meal, 7400.
RATTER, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 210), fisherman at
Weathersta, 8624; for Mr. Adie, 8625; corroborates Thomas
Robertson (p. 211), 8627.
READY Money system, 802, 3623, 8902, 9329, 9587, 9592, 9974,
9945, 10,527, 11,453, 11,826, 11,905, 12,028, 12,039, 15,078,
16,465.
RENT, 488, 911, 944, 1226, 1386, 5274, 5404, 5759, 9991,
10,640, 11,912, 11,969, 12,153, 12,618, 13,007, 13,048, 13,459,
13,681, 14,887, 15,074, 15,120, 15,135.
-Dealer responsible for, 10,025, 10,039, 11,912, 13,679, 15,136.
-Lower because of obligation to fish, 13,293.
ROBERTSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 378),
member of R. & C. Robertson, wholesale and retail provision
merchants, Lerwick, 15,017; merchants generally keep only one
kind of meal, 15,018; gives evidence as to prices of meal, etc.,
15,021.
ROBERTSON, Elizabeth (analysis of her evidence, p. 5),
knits for herself formerly for dealers, 221; merchants supplied her
with wool, 223; paid in goods, 229; had not pass-book, 231; could
seldom get money from dealers, and often obliged to take goods
from them and sell at half-price to get it, 236-238; gets lines from
dealers if not requiring goods, 248, 251; to obtain money, sells
these lines to persons requiring goods, 257-259, and 287-290.
ROBERTSON, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 224),
fisherman and tenant at Hamnavoe under Mr. M'Queen, 9301;
elder of Established Church, South Yell, 9302; free to fish always,
excepting for one period of three years, when bound, 9304; ling
fishing, 9308; thinks a ready-money system would be somewhat
better for men, 9332.
ROBERTSON, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 204), lives
at Muckle Roe--was formerly a fisherman, but is now too old,
8435; thinks fishermen are free, and should engage with any
merchant whom they think offers the best bargain, 8460; men
could not manage to cure their own fish, 8466; as they have not
accommodation, [Page 451] 8470; and would not realize so good a
price, as they would not be able to command so extensive a market
as the merchant, 8471; does not see any advantage in payments for
fish being made earlier in the season, 8472; meal is much dearer
than in the south, 8475; knitting and weaving, 8488; paid either in
goods or money, 8490; if people not indebted, 8502.
ROBERTSON, Mrs. Janet (analysis of her evidence, p. 237), knits,
9793; for Mrs. Spence with her wool, 9794-5; is paid in goods and
money--gets money when she wishes, but generally takes goods, 9797.
ROBERTSON, John, sen. (analysis of his evidence, p. 351), is
a merchant at Lerwick, and tacksman of Lunna estate, 14,067;
fish-curing establishment at Skerries, 14,068; has a store at Vidlin,
14,069; goods are dearer there than at Lerwick, only because of the
cost of transit--they are always sold at the lowest possible prices,
14,072; men fishing at Skerries are bound to deliver their fish to
the tacksman of Lunna, 14,075; but are free to go to the Faroe and
Greenland fishing, 14,082; beach boys are paid weekly wages,
14,086; but are settled with annually, 14,088; are supplied with
goods or cash, as they wish, 14,093-8; herring fishery a failure of
late, 14,108; men have half the produce, and the other half goes to
the expense of boats, etc., 14,112; remembers one or two instances
of new employers taking over debt due by a man to a previous one,
14,138; does not know of any special arrangement to that effect,
14,139; and never entered into one himself, 14,140; purchases
kelp, 14,143; pays 4s. 6d. in goods and 4s. in cash, 14,147;
gatherers have accounts, 14,150; does not think the fish-curing
business could be profitably carried on without combination with a
store, 14,152; people require supplies from shop, and could not do
without them, 14,153; the quality of fish would be deteriorated if
men cured for themselves, 14,155.
-(recalled, p.365). Price of meal at Lerwick, 14,570-6; does an
extensive business in it, 14,577; meal in Shetland is generally of
one quality, 14,579; only one quality sold, 14,585.
ROBERTSON, John, jun. (analysis of his evidence, p. 383),
merchant and fish-curer, and has retail shop in Lerwick--has
fishing station at Spiggie, 15,153; none of the tenants there are
bound to fish for him, 15,154; men in neighbourhood could not
cure their own fish, because there is no beach other than his,
15,159; does not understand how some dealers give more than the
current price, 15,164; succeeded Robert Mouat, 15,178; Mouat did
not call tenants together and order them to fish for him, but merely
recommended them to do so, 15,180.
ROBERTSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 348),
fisherman at Skelberry, in Lunnasting, 13,933; bound to fish for
tacksman, 13,934; deals at store, 13,946; runs an account, 13,950;
is generally in debt at settlement, 13,951; gets advances of money,
13,956; men put on allowance when too far in debt, 13,967.
ROBERTSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 209),
fisherman, 8582; and tenant, of land, 8583; fishes for Mr. Adie,
8584; settles yearly, 8585; gets advances if wished, 8587; herring
fishery, 8605-8; price fixed at beginning of season, 8608.
ROBERTSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 265), cashier
and principal clerk to Mr. Joseph Leask, 10,847; gives an account
of Mr. Leask's system of business, 10,850; Mr. Leask's tenants are
not bound to fish, 10,858; either in home or Faroe fishings, 10,912;
hold their land as yearly tenants, 10,913; denies that the truck
system is more prevalent in Shetland than other parts of the
kingdom, and that it 'makes its depressing effect felt in all the
ramifications of the industrial and social life of the natives,'
10,924; that men and their wives and children are all severally
indebted to the merchants, or that men generally are in debt,
10,925; the tenants have farms generally of about twelve acres,
10,925; some as many as twenty-three acres, and some again
seven, and, besides, there are extensive commons, 10,926; free to
the people, except in Yell, where they pay for grazing ponies and
sheep, but not cattle, 10,927; whaling agents have a very small and
inadequate profit, 10,933; and make very little profit by their
stores, for the men are supplied as cheaply, if not cheaper than at
other stores, and there are many bad debts when there is a bad
voyage, 10,938; bad voyages are frequent in whale and seal
fishing, 10,939; young men must have advances for outfit, 10,940;
men indebted generally go to another merchant, 10,957; and in that
case, seldom pay their debts, 10,959; it is principally young men
who are indebted, 10,961; there is a great scarcity of men, vessels
often have to go to the fishing without their full complement of
hands, 10,961; agents occasionally settle men's debts to other
merchants, 10,977; agents obliged to pay wages in full to men in
presence of the shipping master, but men always come to the store
immediately after and settle any account they may owe, 11,009;
allotment notes not issued by Mr. Leask, 11,051; frequently
supplies men's families with money and goods in their absence,
11,058; delays in settlement are often caused by the dilatoriness of
the men, 11,073; there is only one price charged for goods, 11,111;
men always paid in cash, and not expected to buy; but when they
do, goods are given them as cheap or cheaper than they could
obtain them elsewhere, 11,187; men are very honest, and if they
owe money, invariably pay it after receiving their wages, 11,209;
hosiery paid in goods, 11,227; is simply barter, and not truck,
11,229; all Mr. Leask's employees paid in cash, unless they prefer
to take goods, 11,248; Mr. Leask is extensively engaged in the
Faroe fishing, 11,268; describes agreement with men, 11,270;
lines and hooks, and anything else required by men, supplied by
themselves, 11,272; half of the fish, after deduction of cost of
curing, goes to the owner, and the other half to the men, 11,286.
ROBERTSON, William (recalled, p. 338). Hands in form of
agreement for Faroe fishing, 13,603; men generally join about the
middle of March, 13,604; shows workbook, 13,607; men never
bound to go to Faroe fishing, 13,625; there is only one price for
goods at store, 13,635; thinks price should not be fixed at the
beginning of season, 13,646; does not think small dealers can
command a higher, if so high a price for their fish, 13,655; unless
by selling in small parcels to retail dealers, 13,658; denies that Mr.
Leask ever forced the men on his property to fish for Mr.
Williamson, 13,668; rents are commonly paid by merchant,
13,681; and retained at settlement, 13,682; denies that the truck
system prevails in Shetland to an extent unknown in other parts of
the kingdom, 13,697; the population of Shetland is 30,000 persons,
13,698; three-fourths of these are fishermen, seamen, and their
families, 13,699; nearly every man has an account with the
merchant he fishes for--does not consider this can be called truck,
13,701; thinks men have no reason to complain, 13,707; for it is an
advantage, 13,708; fish merchant is only paid annually for his fish,
and cannot be expected to settle otherwise than yearly with men,
13,710; men frequently have large sums of money in bank, 13,726;
in Greenland whale fishing experienced men are preferred, as
agents do not like the risk of supplying outfits to young hands,
13,737; men are not bound to take outfit from agents, 13,755;
weekly or fortnightly settlements would be impossible, 13,789;
Shetland men are not improvident or extravagant, 13,807; and, as
a rule are not in debt, 13,808.
ROBERTSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 420), is in the
employment of Hay & Co., Lerwick, 16,529; gives in statement as
to the mode of dealing with men engaged for the seal and whale
fishing, 16,530; to the following effect: 'I have been in Hay &
Co.'s employment for upwards of twenty-eight years, during which
time I have had chief management of their ship-agency business,
and particularly that part of it connected with the whale fishery.
The masters of the ships invariably choose the men who form their
crews, and fix their wages without any regard to the employer.
When engaged, men can get their first month's advance in cash,
and if they wished allotment notes. Without farther credit from the
agent, however, young hands could not get an outfit, and now the
Board of Trade regulations have very greatly lessened the number
of young men going to Greenland. The necessity of payment at the
Custom-house causes much extra trouble to the agents, and they
endeavoured at one time to get a higher commission. They did not,
however, and have continued in the agency with much reluctance.
Since 1867, men have always been paid first month's advance in
cash at shipping office, and the balance at the end of the voyage,
whenever they choose to ask it, quite irrespective of advances
to them for clothing; these, however, the men, as a rule, came
forward and settled promptly.' Men are seldom in debt, 16,531; if
indebted, they go to another agent; their accounts are occasionally
transferred to the new agent, 16,566; agents expect men to deal
with them, but only because they have always done so; there is no
compulsion, 16,586; there is great difficulty and trouble in getting
men to attend at a settlement, 16,605.
RUSSELL, Euphemia (analysis of her evidence, p. 284), lives at
Blackness, Scalloway, 11,562; supports herself by knitting and
out-door work, 11,564; would devote her time entirely to knitting
if she could get money in payment, 11,565; when requiring money
has to take out-door work, 11,567; never got money from [Page
452] dealers, 11,570; has exchanged tea for meal, 11,578; can only
get wool for money, 11,579.
SANDISON, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 169),
formerly fisherman, now too old to fish, 7049; fished for Mr.
Anderson, 7051; was not actually bound when indebted to
re-engage with merchant, 7054; but thought it fair to do so,
7077; price fixed at the beginning of season would be a doubtful
benefit, 7059; eggs paid in goods, 7074; fishermen much better off
now than formerly, 7083; whale fishing, 7088-7099.
SANDISON, Alexander (analysis of his evidence, p. 241),
partner in the firm of Spence & Co., 9978; formerly partner of Hay
& Co. (Lerwick) at Uyea Sound, 9979; manager there, 9980;
lessees of Major Cameron's estate in Unst, 9982; men not bound to
fish, 9986; small boats are better adapted to winter fishing, 9998;
winter fishing cannot be extended, 10,001; monthly payments in
cash would be the best system, 10,067 men decline this, 10,009; a
change in the system would cause poverty amongst the men for a
time, 10,015; truck is not nearly so common as it was thirteen
years ago, 10,027; a dealer is powerless to arrest for debt because
of the landlord's hypothec, 10,036; dealer is bound to see tenant's
rents paid to proprietor, or men will not be permitted to fish for
him, 10,025-10,039; dealer often cannot avoid giving further credit
to indebted men, because without it they and their families would
be starved, 10,049; a change to monthly payments from present
system would cause much pauperism in the period of transition,
10,052; thinks the best thing for Shetlanders would be to find some
profitable employment for them in the winter--does not think the
winter fishing could be improved, 10,061; thinks the Government
should improve the harbours and roads--in the sale of cattle, men
often decline to take the proceeds until the yearly settlement,
10,077; men are quite free in the sale of farm produce, 10,079;
boat hiring unprofitable, 10,139; has absolute power to eject men
on estates in tack in Unst, but has never done so, 10,162; tenants
are not bound to fish or sell farm produce, 10,165, 10,166; but
generally do, 10,168; buys hosiery, 10,182; and worsted, 10,183;
pays in cash, 10,187; thinks knitters as a rule should have as much
for their work as the value of the worsted, 10,196.
-Letter sent by (p. 248). Thinks the morals of the people may
compare favourably with those of any others in Scotland; small
shops are an evil, as they sell whisky surreptitiously; thinks the
time spent on winter fishing lost, as it could be more profitably
employed in farming; thinks the best remedy for evils is to
improve houses and get men to improve their ground.
-(recalled, p. 254). Is agent at Uyea Sound for Shipwrecked
Mariners' Society, 10,480; men never contribute, 10,481; a man
was removed because he had a shop, 10,488; small shops are an
evil, for men indebted will beg necessaries from store and sell
them for superfluities at them, 10,494; men's debts are often paid
by a new merchant, but knows of no rule to that effect, 10,498.
-(recalled, p. 263). Want of change, 10,767.
SANDISON, Arthur (analysis of his evidence, p. 191), shopman
and book-keeper to Mr. Anderson, Hillswick. 7837; is preparing
return from Mr. Anderson's books of number of fishermen, etc., 7841.
SANDISON, Jane (analysis of her evidence, p. 103), lives in
Sandwick, 4139; knits for Mr. Linklater, 4140; uses his wool,
4141; is paid in goods, 4142; has asked but never gets money,
4143; has exchanged goods for oil and wool, 4147-4156.
SANDISON, Jemima (analysis of her evidence, p. 33), knitter in
Lerwick, 1697; knits for dealer, 1699; has passbook, 1700; is
paid in goods, 1704; and in money, 1708; could always get some
money if she wished it, 1708; can get wool in exchange for
hosiery, 1717.
SANDISON, John (analysis of his eyidence, p. 167),
fisherman, 6938; and tenant of land, 6939; goes to home
fishing, 6940; for Mr. Anderson, 6941; settlement yearly,
6942; deals at his shop, 6944; never refused cash, 6956; is
not bound to deal with merchant, 6960; price of meal, 6972.
SANDISON, Peter Mouat (analysis of his evidence, p. 127), is
inspector of poor in the parish of Fetlar and North Yell, 5141;
formerly was a fish-curer, 5142; and still cures for Spence & Co.,
5255; settlements at end of year, 5145; indebtedness is a bad
policy for curers, 5148; the best men are always least in debt,
5149; men will not have pass-books, 5170; hosiery, 5176; is paid
generally in goods, 5193; fixing the price of fish at the beginning
of season would benefit the enters, but not the men, 5201; boats
and boat hires, 5206; men always get the highest currency, 5206;
men were bound to fish for him, 5211; but he never enforced the
obligation except in one case, 5216; men have been offered a
weekly payment, but refused it, 5217; there are scarcely any leases
in Yell, 5228; does not think the. system of long settlements tends
to increase the poor rates, 5234; beach boys, 5241; sometimes
have accounts, 5242; fish-curer would not choose to open these,
but it is sometimes necessary to do so, 5243; boys are not obliged
to serve, 5248; workers are paid at end of season, getting goods
during it from Spence & Co's. store, 5259; kelp, 5262; paid almost
entirely in cash, 5269; has known a few instances of restrictions
laid on the sale of farm stock when men are hopelessly in debt,
5271; rent, 5274; never knew any instance of cattle being marked
for debt, 5278.
SCOLLAY, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 203), is a tenant
on the Busta estate, 8376; keeps pauper lunatics, 8378; previously
indebted to merchant, 8379; payments by Parochial Board to him
made through merchant, who is chairman of Board, 8387; and
complains that merchant will only give him goods, 8389; which
are charged at enormous prices, 8403.
-(recalled, p. 210). Truck is a great cause of pauperism, as it
makes the poor careless and the rich fearless. If man dies, the
goods he leaves will be taken by his creditor, and his widow and
family left penniless, 8637.
-(recalled, p. 376). Corrects his previous evidence, and gives
evidence as to prices of meal and flour, 14,964, 14,966.
SECURITY in holding of land, best cure for evils of Shetland,
8055.
SEPARATION of farming and fishing in Shetland (impossible),
4421, 4872, 8029; note, p. 248.
SHARES, fishermen always work best on, 3623, 10,007,
12,604, 12,608.
SHIPWRECKED Mariners' Society, 6711, 10,480, 11,863,
14,348, 14,800, 15,552.
SHORT Settlements, 9579, 9952, 10,006, 10,052, 10,238, 10,341,
10,512, 10,528, 10,718, 10,827, 11,797, 11,875, 12,610, 12,887,
15,203, 15,750.
-Impracticable, 3896, 8149, 11,797, 11,875, 13,789.
SHAWLS and haps, price of, 31, 1421, 1441, 1521, 1641, 1686,
3413, 3430, 9739, 10,205, 11,537, 11,606, 11,769, 15,922, 16,010,
16,045, 16,075, 16,113, 16,208.
-Dressing of, 1729, 1793.
SIEVWRIGHT, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 382),
solicitor in Lerwick, 15,116; factor on property of Mrs. Budge,
Scaffold, 15,117; wrote letter to William Stewart, quoted in
Stewart's evidence (question 8917), 15,118; written because the
tenants had taken a prejudice against Thomas Williamson, and his
business fell off; the men, on explanation, were ready to deal with
him; there was no compulsion used, 15,119; Williamson was not
responsible for rents, 15,135.
SIMPSON, Mrs. Andrina (analysis of her evidence, p. 6), knits for
herself, 306; buys her wool, 308; sells to merchants for goods,
310; never got more than part payment in cash, 316-320; never
gets lines, 329.
SIMPSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 345), does not
wish to make any statement, because his rent may be raised or he
may be ejected, 13,830; is a tenant on estate of Lunna, 13,832; is
bound, so far as he knows, to fish for tacksman, 13,833; would
prefer liberty, 13,840; not free to sell winter fish, 13,843; is not
bound at all to deal at store, 13,903; goods in Lerwick cheaper
than at store, 13,920.
SIMPSON, Robert (analysis of his evidence, 348), fisherman at
Valour, in Lunnasting, 13,978; not having money, is obliged to
take goods from the merchant, 13,980; is charged more than
should be, 13,981; bound to fish for Mr. Robertson, 13,983; could
make more if free and curing for himself, 13,986; never sold eggs
for cash, but has no doubt he could have got it if he had wished,
14,023.
SINCLAIR, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 22), is a
fisherman at Burra, 1100; wishes liberty in fishing, 1109; liability
for father's debts, 1143-1154; in Faroe fishing can get payment in
money, 1157; families of fishermen get provisions and money
when they are absent at the Faroe fishing, 1172, 1178.
SINCLAIR, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 131), tenant on
Symbister estate at Lerwick, formerly bound to tacksman (Mouat),
5309; was warned because of a quarrel with his son as to an entry
of fish, 5315; got provisions at store, 5323; never got any money,
5332; meal unfit to eat, 5330.
SINCLAIR, Isabella (analysis of her evidence, p. 72), daughter
and assistant of R. Sinclair, 3245; never knew of lines being
passed from one to another person, 3250; payments in money less,
3252; Shetland wool is becoming extinct owing to the introduction
of Cheviot sheep, 3269, 3270.
[Page 453]
SINCLAIR, Isabella (recalled, p. 82). Has known cases of hosiery
being sold for money to other people, and knitters have afterwards
come and spent the cash at dealer's shop, 3612.
-(recalled, p. 350). Explains, with reference to evidence of
Margaret Jamieson (p. 350), that salesmen in her father's shop
cannot give money without permission, and that the want of cash
is an exceptional case, 14,064; persons are paid in money who
have bargained for money, 14,065; but a less price given in cash,
14,066.
SINCLAIR, Mary Ann (analysis of her evidence, p. 40), knits,
2075; for dealer with his wool, 2076; has no pass-book, 2077; is
paid in money and goods, 2079; gets as much money as she
wishes, 2092, 2107.
SINCLAIR, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 49), merchant in
Lerwick, 2366; deals in drapery, tea, boots and shoes, and a few
groceries, 2367; deals also in hosiery, 2370; principally buys
hosiery, but sometimes gives wool out to be knitted, 2371; pays
generally in goods, but gives cash, 2373; more cash given lately,
2376; pass-books given if wished, 2383; sometimes pays entirely
in cash, 2399; but only for goods actually required, 2402-2404;
often takes goods, when not requiring them, from knitters who are
in need, 2404; payment in goods generally understood, 2411; the
system of pass-books, 2455, 2462; knitters seldom have them,
2455; refers to evidence of Elizabeth Robertson (p. 5), 2462; states
she has several times had worsted in part payment of hosiery,
2463-2470; but never gives mohair, 2471; or Shetland wool, 2473;
as the supply is very small, and there is great difficulty in getting
it, and it is only kept for the merchant's own use, 2473, 2481; as a
rule, will not even sell it for cash, 2482; gives lines, 2502; the
practice of giving lines commenced lately, 2517; a cash tariff
should be introduced, as it would save much trouble, 2519; does
not know whether in some cases knitters might not lose by it,
2521; there is no profit on hosiery at present, 2523; and merchant's
only profit is on the goods given to knitters, 2531; if cash tariff
were introduced, would have to give less for hosiery, 2543, 2547;
to give money to knitters entails considerable loss, 2579; two
prices, cash and goods, 2575; lines, 2581-2590; does not think they
are often transferred, 2587; women will not take a less price in
cash for their work, 2611; lines are seldom long in currency, 2639;
refers to evidence of Catherine Borthwick (p. 32), 2643.
-(recalled, p. 71). Refers again to evidence of Catherine
Borthwick (p. 32), 3215.
-(recalled, p. 77). Price of meal, 3413; dyeing of shawls, 3413.
-(recalled, p. 78). Ticketing of goods, 3449.
-(recalled, p. 82). Mentions case of a customer making cash
purchase in his shop, and a person having lines calling her aside
and exchanging her lines for the customer's cash in his presence, a
line being tendered in payment of his goods, 3617.
-(recalled, p. 356). Explains, with reference to Adam Tait's
evidence (p. 356), that, for various reasons, there is often a
deficiency of cash in shop, 14,289.
-(recalled, p.406). Concurs with Mr. Laurenson (p. 406), 16,035;
never barters hosiery for goods from merchants, 16,036.
-(recalled, p. 409). Explains, with reference to Slater's evidence
(p. 408), that a number of goods are torn in dressing, 16,129.
SLATER, Grace (analysis of her evidence, p. 408), knitter in
Lerwick, 16,084; and keeps lodgings, 16,085; generally knits veils,
16,086; gets from 1s. to 1s. 4d. for knitting veils, 16,090.
(recalled, p. 409). Produces a veil she is at present making for Mr.
Sinclair, 16,128.
SMITH, Mrs. Elizabeth Irvine or (analysis of her evidence. p.
286), lives in Scalloway, 11,683; knits chiefly for Mr. Sinclair,
11,684; has account with him, and gets whatever goods she
wishes, 11,684; gets money also when she wishes, 11,688; once
bartered tea for milk, 11,698.
SMITH, Hans (analysis of his evidence, p. 117), is master of a
smack visiting Fair Island, 4739; takes goods to store there, 4740;
people satisfied with quality, but not the price of goods, 4742; it is
expensive carrying goods thither, and there is a risk of damage,
4743; other dealers are not allowed to sell goods on the island,
4745-8; or to buy, 4749; people fined for selling cattle or horses to
them, 4751.
SMITH, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 322), merchant and
fish-curer at Hill Cottage, Sandwick, 13,022; conducts his business
in the same manner as Mr. Tulloch (p. 321), 13,025; generally
pays more than current price for fish, 13,027; men cannot cure fish
so well for themselves, 13,036; buys eggs, pays in goods, 13,043;
payment on delivery of fish would not be advantageous to men, as
men would not get credit, without which they cannot begin the
fishing: they would not know how to manage their money, it
would be spent before rent-time, and the landlord would roup their
corn or cattle, 13,047; the present system is a great benefit to men
in a bad year, 13,048.
SMITH, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 110), fisherman
and tenant of land at Trosswick, 4435; corroborates William
Goudie, 4437; gets advances from dealer, 4457; never was refused
one, but always had a balance in his favour, 4459; never paid fines
or liberty money, 4483; but understood he was liable for them,
4484; would be content, but objects to be bound to fish for
landlord, 4487; not bound to deal at store, 4488.
-(recalled, p. 117). Refers to evidence of Robert Halcrow (p.
115); saw bill mentioned, and states also that a man with a letter
was sent to tenants, 4720; from landlord, stating that the lands
were given over to his son, 4726; and that they would have to fish
for him, under penalty of ejectment, 4727.
SMITH, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 20), fisherman at Burra,
976; and tenant, 977; engaged in home fishing, 977; corroborates
Walter Williamson (p. 15), 979; formerly it was a custom with
men to take tea from store and sell to each other to obtain money,
986-993; this was forbidden by dealers, 987, 990; are bound to
deliver fish, 1003; by written obligation, 994-996; was made to
pay liberty money for his sons when they worked for another
dealer, 1012; but got it paid back afterwards, 1025.
SMITH, Peter (analysis of his evidence, p. 251), fisherman
formerly at Westing, now fish-curer for Spence & Co., 10,343;
cures by contract, 10,344; beach boys get credit at the curer's shop
at the risk of merchant; fees are paid by merchant on receipt of
line, 10,345, 10,368.
SMITH, Robert (analysis of his evidence, p. 220), fisherman and
tenant, at Burravoe, to Mr. Henderson, 9104; formerly fished at
Samphray for Mr. Robert and Mr. James Hoseason, 9106; bound
to do so, 9108, 9122.
SMITH, Mrs. Rosina Duncan or (analysis of her evidence, p. 408),
lives in Lerwick, 16,067; husband alive, but old--formerly a
seaman, 16,068; has no pension, 16,069; witness knits for her
family, 16,070; at one time knitted and sold to Mr. Sinclair and
Mr. Leask, 16,072; was paid generally in goods, but got money if
she required, 16,080.
SMITH, Rev. William (analysis of his evidence, p. 260),
clergyman of Baltasound for three years, 10,701; long payments
and running accounts have a very deteriorating effect on the
character of the people--it destroys self-reliance, 10,703; men look
to merchant for help in bad season, 10,704; does not think many
men save money, 10,709; and when men have money they conceal
it, having a want of confidence in merchants, 10,710; men
indebted sell stock to small traders privately, 10,712; thinks some
new system of money payments should be introduced, 10,714;
clergyman and small proprietors generally obtain supplies out of
Shetland, 10,715; as quality and price of dealer's goods are
different, 10,716; the houses of the people are very bad and should
be improved, but much might be done by the people themselves if
paid weekly or monthly wages, 10,718; the present system leads
men into debt, 10,719; has been asked to apply funds collected for
widows to liquidate debt, but never did so, 10,725.
SMUGGLING of fish, by men bound to deliver to curer, 966,
3655. 3762, 5577, 5663, 5981, 6564, 6822, 7336, 12,908, 13,158,
13,579, 13,840.
SOAP, 12,826, 13,233, 15,820, 16,875.
SPENCE, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 256), senior partner of
Spence & Co., 10,556; produces letter, 10,558; stating that cash
system would be an advantage, and would necessitate no more,
and even less, outlay of capital than at present on the part of
masters; at least price of fish should be fixed at beginning of
season; sooner or later it will be necessary to do so; it is already
done with the winter fishing, and might with the summer; it would
be an advantage to the merchant in several ways, 10,558; herring
fishery is carried on at a great loss at present by merchants in hope
of future success, 10,563; there should be co-operation and not
competition between merchants, 10,567; as the country is too poor
for competition, 10,580.
STEWART, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 216),
fisherman and tenant at Seafield, Mid Yell, 8911; sells fish to Mr.
Thomas Williamson by direction of landlord, 8917; has no written
tack, 8919; paid current price at end of year, 8932; sale of cattle,
8944.
SUTHERLAND, Charlotte (analysis of her evidence, p. 426),
[Page 454] knitter in Kirkwall; brought up in Lerwick, and lived
there till 1867 with her father, and knitted goods sometimes with
merchants' and sometimes with her own wool. After her father's
death knitted to a Miss Ogilvy for money and the shops for goods.
Knew a great many women in Lerwick who lived entirely by
knitting, and had to take goods from the shop and sell them to get
money, 16,660.
SUBDIVISION (excessive) of land to multiply fishermen, 9728,
10,925 (size of holdings).
SUGAR, 7948, 8733, 10,231, 12,826, 12,876, 13,212, 13.235,
13,394, 13,416, 15,817, 16,656, 16,659, 16,852, 16,860.
SUTHERLAND, George Sinclair (analysis of his evidence, p.
427). Mr. Methuen, who was to have been examined by
commissioner, is forbidden by his medical adviser, and witness
attends to speak to points on which he was expected to give
information, 16,661. Has been for eight years in Mr. Methuen's
service, and manages his business, which is the largest business in
Scotland, 16,662; gave up business in Shetland because Mr. Bruce
took all his tenants' boats into his own hands, 16,671; he had no
shop, 16,677; the system of paying for fish on delivery would be
very difficult to work in such places as Shetland, 16,704; it would
be a great advantage to merchants, 16,705; men prefer to be paid
the current price at end of year, to getting the market price on
delivery, 16,720; payment of the price of the day would benefit
both men and merchants, 16,729; large boats are an advantage in
fishing, 16,764; but in bad weather are more difficult to manage,
16,768.
SUTHERLAND, Rev. James R. (analysis of his evidence, p. 179),
is minister of the parish of Northmaven, 7468; and well acquainted
with the condition of people, 7470; thinks the system of long
payments ruinous to men morally and pecuniarily--destroys
independence, 7474; most of the people are indebted, 7475;
merchants and men are suspicious of each other, 7490; men think
merchants take undue profits, 7491; the evidence of fishermen
already given is not to be depended on, as they are in terror of the
dealers, 7512; branch shops opened by the dealers, 7520-7523; the
system of separate accounts for each member of family destroys
family affection and mutual dependence, 7525; parents when aged
are neglected by their children, 7526; beach boys are generally
indebted, 7533; eggs, 7538; women dress more expensively than is
necessary because of the payment of hosiery in goods, 7549; when
buying corn and straw, witness cannot get it delivered to him till
after dark, because the people are in fear of the merchants, 7563;
does not know whether merchants actively cause this terrorism,
7573; money subscribed for widows of men drowned appropriated
by merchant for payment of their husbands' debts, 7581; marking
of cattle for debt, 7600; whisky, 7615; truck and allowing of credit
should be made penal, 7626.
TAIT, Adam (analysis of his evidence, p. 356), shopman to Robert
Sinclair, 14,280; settled with Margaret Jamieson (p. 350) for a hap
purchased by Mr. Sinclair lately, 14,281; paid 19s. 6d. in goods
and 6d. in cash--the bargain was made for goods, and so he refused
to give her cash except at a reduction, 14,284; seldom a deficiency
of cash in shop, 14,288.
TAIT, Agnes (analysis of her evidence, p. 288), lives in Scalloway
alone, 11,755; supports herself entirely by knitting; is always paid
in goods; never asked money, because she knew she would not get
it, 11,757; got money by sending hosiery south, 11,758; barter of
goods for money, 11,759.
TAIT, George Reid (analysis of his evidence, p. 363), agent in
Lerwick for whaling vessels, 14,509; settles with men at shipping
office in full, 14,513; men generally settled with at once, 14,516;
men, as a rule, pay their accounts immediately after, 14,526;
are very honourable, 14,527; report by Mr. Hamilton very
exaggerated, 14,549; is acquainted with the practice of exchanging
lists of men indebted who have left their employment-has not
seen any of these for some years, 14,558.
TAIT, Mrs. Jemima Brown or (analysis of her evidence, p. 7),
knits for dealer, 335; uses his wool, 338; has pass-book, 343;
cannot get money, 352.
TEA, Price of, etc., 986, 1488, 6696, 7399, 7452, 7949, 8733,
8967, 9269, 9811, 10,226, 10,252, 10,318, 10,673, 11,749, 13,393,
13,416, 14,726, 15,808, 15,832, 16,656, 16,830, 16,857.
TENANTS bound to fish for curer, 476, 559, 764, 775, 784, 994,
1003, 1066, 1110, 1114, 1209, 1242, 1396, 2974, 2983, 3021,
4256, 4508, 4575, 4613, 4647, 4803, 4901, 4911, 5077, 5127,
5211, 5284, 5309, 5936, 6028, 7111, 9108, 9224, 9274, 9275,
9304, 9370, 9638, 9821, 9924, 10,402, 10,661, 12,058, 12,367,
12,621, 12,734, 12,774, 12,800, 12,843, 13,082, 13,130, 13,293,
13,833, 13,934, 13,983, 14,075, 14,731, 14,890, 15,061, 16,433,
16,656.
TENANTS free in fishing, 1109, 3047, 5409, 5544, 5804, 6185,
6251, 7975, 8084, 8781, 8894, 9304, 9514, 9555, 9819, 9986,
10,165, 10,208, 10,324, 10,551, 10,622, 10,640, 10,858, 10,874,
10,912, 11,060, 11,729, 11,928, 12,029, 12,247, 12,949, 13,293,
13,455, 15,060, 15,145, 15,154.
THOMASON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 152),
fisherman at Eskerness and at Stenness, 6183; fishes for dealer,
6185; free to fish for any one, 6185; tenant of land, 6186; has an
account with dealer, 6189; no pass-book, 6190; is not bound to
deal at shop, 6192; goods much the same in price as elsewhere,
6193; meal, 6194; does not think a price fixed at beginning of
season would be an advantage, 6213; freedom in fishing an
advantage to men, 6227; meal, 6235.
THOMPSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 387), seaman
in Lerwick, 15,276; has frequently gone thence on sealing and
whaling voyages, 15,277; under various agents, 15,278; always got
outfit from agent he sailed under, 15,279; got goods from him and
balance in cash, 15,285-15,300; always got money when he asked,
15,302; now is paid at Custom-house, and pays his account at shop
immediately thereafter, 15,321.
THOMSON, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 287), shopkeeper
and grocer at Sandsound in Sandsting, 11,699; deals a little in fish
in winter and spring, 11,703; cures for himself, 11,704; pays on
delivery, 11,706; in goods if cash not wished, 11,707; runs
accounts with fishermen, but does not like doing so, 11,711; might
have a better business if men were paid for fish on delivery,
11,717; men have freedom in fishing in his district, 11,729.
TOBACCO, Price of, etc., 5053, 10,229, 10,257, 12,875,
13,204, 13,231, 13,395, 13,457, 16,854.
TULLOCH, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 9), a fisherman,
456; fishes for ling for Mr. Tulloch, 459; is afraid of the landlord
taking the tack of the tenants into his own hands, 468; does not
complain of present arrangement, except that prices of fish are
never fixed till the cud of the season, 474; no written agreements,
476; all the fish delivered to merchant's factor, 484; can get money
before settlement to pay rent, 488; would rather contract to supply
fish at a stated price, 491; can have pass-books, 495; balance paid
at end of season, 501; sometimes a deficiency, 501; which is
allowed to stand over, 503; is not bound to deal with merchant,
514; has heard that landlord proposes to take fishing into his own
hands, and fears oppression in that case, 528.
TULLOCH, Andrew (analysis of his evidence, p. 134), lives at
Brough in Mossbank, 5426; fished for himself for two years, and
sold to Mr. Leask, 5427; has a man to cure his fish, 5428; makes
more this way, 5430; takes his fish to Lerwick yearly, and is then
paid for them, 5434; in cash, 5435; men on Busta estate all free,
5443; pays the same price when buying goods for cash as he
would taking them on credit, 5447; price of fish and cost of curing,
5446-5460.
TULLOCH, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, p. 277), shopkeeper
at Scalloway to Hay & Co.; they have a shop, 11,309; in winter
fishing men paid in cash on delivery, 11,313; men generally take
their goods, but are not obliged, 11,372; people employed in
curing paid weekly wages, 11,427; they generally take full value
of these prior to settlement, 11,429; butter and eggs paid for in
goods, 11,435; ready-money payments would facilitate business,
11,455.
TULLOCH, James (analysis of his evidence, p. 60), merchant in
Lerwick, 2767; sells drapery, tea, and soap, 2768; deals in hosiery,
2770; buys it chiefly--seldom employs knitters, 2770; pays
principally in goods, seldom gives cash, 2771; knitters have no
pass-books, 2772; does not sell worsted, 2779; but lately has sold a
little Pyrenees wool, 2779; sometimes giving it for hosiery, 2781;
objects to sell Shetland wool even for cash, 2783; gives lines,
2785; there is generally no profit on hosiery, 2793; system of
payment in goods is very old; does not think knitters would agree
to a cash system, as they would be paid a less price, 2800; does not
object to a cash system, but thinks it would greatly interfere with
the sale of goods, 2807; it would also be injurious to merchants,
2808.
TULLOCH, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 29), knits,
1476; has used her own wool for eighteen months, 1477;
previously knitted for Mr. Linklater, 1478; was paid in goods,
1480; had a pass-book, 1481; got tea and sold it to get money,
1488; knits now, and sells to merchants for part money and part
goods, 1515-1527; gets articles and sells them to others for money,
1528, 1540.
TULLOCH, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 321), [Page 455]
fish-curer and merchant at Lebidden, 12,946; employs a number of
crews in summer fishing, 12,947; men not obliged to fish, 12,949;
settles annually, 12,953; men have accounts at store, 12,954; pays
men a price higher than the current price, 12,972; if price were
fixed at the beginning of the season, men would get less, 12,982;
men's debts sometimes paid by new merchant, 13,001; is not
responsible for rents, 13,007; buys eggs, pays in goods, 13,015.
TULLOCH, William Bruce (analysis of his evidence, p. 359),
merchant and shipping agent at Lerwick, 14,379; agent for
Greenland whaling vessels, 14,380; disagrees in part with the
evidence of Mr. William Robertson, 14,382; lists of balances due
by men to merchants are still handed by agents to each other,
14,385; but accounts only paid with consent of man, and when
there is a balance sufficient in his favour, 14,386; young hands are
not so commonly employed in Greenland fishing now, 14,448;
formerly that trade was a nursery for the navy, now the regulations
of the Board of Trade have prevented this, 14,454.
TWATT, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 299), merchant at Voe,
in the parish of Walls, 12,164; business the same as that of Mr.
Georgeson, 12,167; cannot get men to fish for him, 12,173; men
are expected to deal at store, 12,195; thinks that skippers of vessels
get a fee to make the men deal at store, 12,200; deals a little in
hosiery and eggs; pays by barter, 12,217, 12,218.
TWO Prices (cash and credit), 1936, 4238, 5392, 9438,
10,393, 10,507, 11,111, 13,635.
-(cash and goods), 2171, 2575, 2726, 12,295, 15,826.
VEILS, Price of, etc., 1422, 9738, 11,629, 16,090, 16,122, 16,128,
16,130, 16,657.
WALKER, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 402). Formerly
gave evidence before the commissioners, under the Act of 1870,
in Edinburgh, 15,920; re-affirms all evidence then given, and
explains as to the value of wool in a shawl, 15,921; contradicts
that merchants have no profit on hosiery, as he believes they
often have an extremely large one, 15,922; a great deal of land in
Shetland is under-rented for the purpose of binding fishermen,
15,936; men are afraid to come forward to give evidence before
the commissioner, 15,940; witness has been instrumental in
starting a large Limited Liability Company, to afford Shetlanders
the means of prosecuting fishing free from the oppression of truck,
15,941; the old system of payments to be adhered to, but men to be
paid in cash--in order to provide for outfits, the accounts to be paid
by Company whenever the ship leaves with the men on board --
and advances to be made to families, 15,947; manages chromate of
iron quarries at Unst, 15,969; wages not paid in truck, 15,970; but
were formerly, 15,971; since the abolition of truck in parishes with
which he is connected, the poor-rates have been reduced
considerably, 15,975; merchants often commence business without
any capital, and so trade on that of the fishermen, 15,982.
-- (recalled, p. 406). Messrs. Hay's establishment is the largest of
the kind in Lerwick, 16,024; men are ready to sign or do anything
they are bid by the curers, 16,027.
WANT of change and money, 10,767, 14,042, 14,064, 14,289.
WANT of independence, 3717 (none), 5992, 8050, 9946, 10,650,
13,877, 14,739.
WARNING too short, 4688, 8055.
WEEKLY or monthly payments (see Short Settlements).
WHALE and Seal Fishery, statements as to, 3991, 7088, 9136,
9609, 10,799, 10,931, 12,506, 13,695, 13,735, 14,080, 14,163,
14,293, 14,509, 14,522, 14,762, 14,815, 15,277, 15,489, 15,547,
15,600, 15,871, 16,221, 16,343, 16,390, 16,530.
WHALES driven ashore by men, one-third of oil taken by
landlord, 657, 764, 861, 4405, 11,856, 13,479.
WHALING Agents (see Whale and Seal Fishery).
WILLIAMSON, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 963),
fisherman at Cullivoe in North Yell, 10,769; does a good deal in
winter fishing, 10,773; makes more by it than most men, 10,774;
large boats are not so good for it, 10,788; but he intends to make a
trial in one, 10,789; was at whale fishing in 1864, 10,799; men
commonly paid in cash unless they require goods, 10,811; does not
see any advantage in monthly payments; in his own case, gets
money whenever he requires it, 10,827.
WILLIAMSON, Mrs. Christina (analysis of her evidence,
p. 4), knits, 150; uses her own wool, 152; often asked for money,
but cannot get it, 160-165; sells a shawl, and opens an account
with dealer, 175-186.
WILLIAMSON, Mrs. C. (recalled, p. 356). Corrects her former
evidence (p. 4) to the effect that it was not Mr. Laurenson but Mr.
Laurence to whom she sold a shawl, 14,291.
WILLIAMSON, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 121),
fisherman and tenant, Eastshore, Dunrosness, 4888; free in fishing
till twelve years since, then bound to fish for tacksman, 4901;
corroborates William Goudie (p. 105) and others, 4904; can
always get money, 4905.
WILLIAMSON, George (analysis of his evidence, p. 232),
fisherman at Mid Yell; goes to whale and seal fishing, 9609; in
whale fishing month's wages paid in advance, and allotment notes
given, 9613.
WILLIAMSON, Gideon (analysis of his evidence, p. 202),
fisherman at Muckle Roe, 8333; fishes for Mr. Inkster, 8335; is
settled with at Hallowmas yearly, 8336; deals at Mr. Inkster's
store, 8337; does not wish to deal elsewhere, 8342; never knew
men change employers because of being in debt, 8348.
WILLIAMSON, Gilbert (analysis of his evidence, 253), principal
storekeeper to Spence & Co., Haroldswick, 10,448; knows nothing
of hosiery purchases, as they are made by Mrs. Spence, 10,450;
gets lines by her from women, 10,452; and always pays them in
goods, 10,455.
WILLIAMSON, Mrs. Grace (analysis of her evidence, p. 201),
lives in Muckle Roe, 8253; knits and makes cloth, 8254; uses her
own wool for the cloth, 8256; gets either money or goods in
payment as she requires, 8257; her husband fishes for Mr. Inkster,
8274; she has no separate account at shop from her husband, 8277.
WILLIAMSON, Henry (analysis of his evidence, p. 153),
fisherman at Stenness, 6248; tenant at Tangwick, 6249; free in
fishing, 6251; fishes for dealer, 6252; deals principally at his shop,
6253; gets advances during season if required, 6265; is satisfied
with price and quality of goods at shop, 6266; thinks the fixing of
a price for fish at the beginning of the season would be a great
disadvantage to men, 6267; people are often supported by
merchants in bad seasons, 6274-6277; kelp, 6325.
WILLIAMSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 218),
merchant at Linkhouse, Mid Yell, 8993; men free to fish to any
one, 8998; formerly engaged to fish for him, but had to break their
engagements by order of their landlord (see William Stewart's
evidence, p. 216), 9000; deals a little in hosiery, 9052; pays chiefly
in goods, 9053; has occasionally liquidated debts of fishermen
coming into his employment, 9074.
WILLIAMSON, Margaret (analysis of her evidence, p. 202), lives
in Muckle Roe, 8308; knits and makes some cloth, 8309; knits her
own wool, 8310; is always paid in goods, cannot get money, 8314;
paid for cloth in money if required, 8328.
WILLIAMSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 228),
merchant and fish-curer at Seafield, 9463; previously shopman to
Magnus Mouat, 9464; his system of business, 9469-9486;
purchase of cattle, 9489; supplying of fishermen the principal
support of his business, 9495-9500; would not wish men to fish for
him unwillingly, 9523; gives for fish the current price as fixed by
the principal merchants, 9538; deals a little in hosiery and yarn,
9547; sells it in Lerwick for goods, 9548; hosiery and worsted are
bad speculations, 9552.
WILLIAMSON, Walter (analysis of his evidence, p. 15),
fisherman at Burra, 762; tenant, 763; complains that men are
bound to fish for landlord or pay liberty money, and that price not
fixed till end of season; cannot get leases, and owing to the nature
of the settlements must deal at landlord's shop; one-third of oil
from whales driven on shore is taken by landlord; daughters who
knit cannot get payment in money (these statements made in a
letter signed by witness and twelve others), 764; not under written
obligation to fish for landlord, 775; but bound verbally, 776;
cannot obtain liberty, 784; would prefer to fish on his own
account, 788; but would be ejected if he did, 790; long settlements,
807; would prefer the price to be fixed at the beginning of season,
if fixed honestly, 860; whales, 861-4; Faroe fishing, 876; ejection
for giving evidence, 900; rents, 911; farm produce, 939; men have
the advantage of credit in bad seasons, 954; but if they had liberty,
would not require it, 955; quality and price of store goods, 956;
men occasionally are obliged to cure and sell fish secretly to obtain
money, 967-970.
WILLIAMSON, William (analysis of his evidence, p. 250),
fisherman at Snarravoe, Unst, and tenant, 10,320; supposes he is
quite free in fishing, 10,324; and to deal [Page 456] at any shop,
10,325; once fished for fixed price, and got more at the end of the
season, 10,330; price fixed always in the herring fishery, 10,336;
does not know whether monthly payments would be an advantage,
10,341.
WILSON, Laurence (analysis of his evidence, p. 426), is a
fisherman at Kirkwall; was born and lived in Fair Isle until 1869;
left because he expected to be evicted; prices were too high in Fair
Isle, 16,659.
WILSON, Thomas (analysis of his evidence, p. 424), weaver at
Kirkwall; born in Fair Isle, and lived there until lately; population
about 30 or 40 families; they live chiefly by fishing, and that
principally in the summer; have always been bound to deliver their
fish to proprietor; men were settled with year]y, and never could
get cash; previously prices at store were much higher than charged
by hawkers who came to the island, 16,656.
WINTER Fishing, 7212, 7802, 8033, 8815, 8847, 8904, 9328,
9887, 10,001, 10,062, 10,083, 10,633, 10,773, 11,312, 11,703,
12,279, 12,478, 12,764, 12,879.
-Possibility of extending.
WINWICK, Catherine (analysis of her evidence, p. 1), knits for
Mr. Linklater, 2; uses his wool, 5; and is paid for her knitting, 7;
partly in money, partly in goods, 8; price fixed by merchant, 9;
keeps no passbook, 12; does not think she could have got payment
entirely in money, but never tried, 15; is always content, 19; only
needs money for rent or provisions, 20; always got whatever
money she asked, 22; but would have liked more, 29; knits a shawl
in about a month, 31; gets 10s. in money and goods, 33; wool
usually supplied, and women paid for the knitting, 44-46; dealers
will not sanction any other arrangement, 60.
WOOD, John (analysis of his evidence, p. 203), is a fisherman at
Muckle Roe, 8360; to Mr. Inkster, 8361; corroborates Gideon
Williamson (p. 202), 8363; men's debts usually transferred to new
merchant, 8373.
WOOL and worsted, 449, 1154, 1423, 1515, 1571, 1671, 1717,
1890, 1955, 2288, 2463, 2752, 2783, 2897, 3087, 3188, 3269,
3486, 6462, 7317, 8486, 8897, 9058, 9412, 9547, 9715, 9723,
9734, 10,183, 11,507, 11,571, 13,815, 14,005, 14,053, 15,396,
15,921, 16,043, 16,116.
WORSTED a ready-money article, 449, 1720, 11,545, 11,579.
YOUNG, Charles (analysis of his evidence, p. 143), fisherman at
Stenness, 5773; holds no land, 5775; goes to home fishing, 5777;
deals with merchant, 5789; can get advances of money during
season, 5791; meal, 5799; goods as good and cheap at merchant's
store as at any other shop, 5801; not bound to fish, 5804; would
like price fixed at beginning of season, 5814; but thinks there
might be some difficulty in getting fishermen to abide by their
bargain, 5819; men in debt to curer expected to fish for him, 5829.
End of
Project Gutenberg's Second Shetland Truck System Report, by William Guthrie